Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - How can the Vikings catch the Eagles?

Episode Date: January 28, 2025

Matthew Coller, Manny Hill and Brian Murphy have a round table discussion about how long it will take the Vikings to match up with the Eagles. Plus, is this the most annoying Super Bowl matchup? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

TD Direct Investing offers live support, so whether you're a newbie or a seasoned pro, you can make your investing steps count. And if you're like me and think a TFSA stands for Total Fund Savings Adventure, maybe reach out to TD Direct Investing. Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here, and it is roundtable time once again. Brian Murphy, usually of Monday Morning Murph, but now Monday Evening Murph, and Manny as always.

And Manny, it's not going to be hard for you to pick the entire rest of the playoffs. There's just one game left in the NFL season. So here's where I want to begin, fellas. This matchup between the Chiefs and the Eagles, America seems unhappy with it. So I want to know your guys' feelings. I'll start with Murph, then we'll get to Manny. I want to know, because last night when I was doing my live reaction,

the chat wanted nothing to do with this Superbowl. There were a lot of people lying, claiming that they won't be watching it, which they will be for sure. But that's how upset they were that the chiefs are going to play the Eagles. So Murph, are you excited? Are you annoyed? Are you just bubbling over with anticipation? What are you feeling about Chiefs and Eagles? I'm lukewarm, but look, they earned their way there and they made they did what they did because nobody else could take it from them. And, you know, I keep waiting for that, that whole, you know, Chiefs haters realm out there it's not like it's not illegal to beat them it's not illegal to go into Arrowhead Stadium and actually take it from them so and I'm of the like I'm of the thinking I do appreciate greatness and look this is going to be the 59th Super Bowl nobody's

ever won three in a row it's just it's not only a salary cap era, it's just sort of a, you know, it's all about me era where it's easy for teams to break up and lose people via free agency and superstardom and coach egos and whatnot. And it's just been amazing to watch. I mean, seven AFC championship games in a row, that in and of itself is an incredible feat. And the fact that they've got three, you know, three and they're looking for a fourth, it just feels like these are the things that the NFL is built on, you know, dynasties and narratives and comparing the eras, comparing the numbers, comparing the projections, the sheer dominance, the ability to win big games, big moments.

I mean, you can't hate on that. Now, the Eagles, I don't think anybody necessarily wanted to see Philadelphia hosting another Super Bowl kind of bonanza in their town, but they earned it too. So, no, everybody's going to watch because it's what we do. We may not be there happily, but we'll be there because we always are. What do you think, Manny? How are you feeling?

Yeah, I mean, I don't, from a freshness standpoint, I hate the matchup because this is exactly what we saw two years ago. Now, granted, that was a great game with a great finish and a little bit of a controversial finish, but it was a tight game and we saw, you know, the two of the best quarterbacks in the league play tremendously. You know, Patrick Mahomes particularly in the second half. And Jalen Hurts was great in that game, really from start to finish.

And, you know, if you don't love the matchup because you're sick of these two teams i get it but i would still strongly encourage people to watch because you're going to watch some of the best players in the league on the biggest stage you know you're going to watch the best quarterback on on earth you know the guy who has been the premier not just the premier quarterback but really the premier player in this league for the last seven years now. He's going to be on the big stage again with a terrific team around him. And, you know, you're going to see that on the Eagles side as well. Jalen Hurts has been one of the best quarterbacks in the league, really, since he became a starter, and he's gotten better and better.'t, I don't, I don't love it from the standpoint

of, yeah, we just saw this two years ago and I want something fresh and new, but I'm still going to watch because I think it's going to be a great game much like it was two years ago. Manny, you would also watch the 1971 Superbowl from start to finish if I put it in front of you. So that is a true. I don't know if I would watch that one. There were, there were, I think there were 11 combined turnovers in the Superbowl, Superbowl five. So I don't know if I would actually watch that one. Next week is Superbowl trivia and O'Brien, the hero. That's right.

Clearly already preparing for that. Uh, the way I would phrase it is it is the best, worst Superbowl. It is the best teams with the best groups of players, the least flawed teams. You have the greatest quarterback of an era against the greatest roster builder of an era. It is Mahomes versus Howie Roseman, who has done just an astonishing job in building this roster. And you really saw it against Washington. Top to bottom, where is their flaw? You cannot find one.

They have the best running back. They have elite receivers. They have a top-notch quarterback. They have offensive line to where a guy can get injured and they can send somebody else in and he's fine. And then they have a defense, top to bottom. They draft a couple corners. Those guys are great all of a sudden.

They don't have the weaknesses even on defense that they did before in the secondary so these are the two best teams in the national football league and when the two best teams play i almost feel like well who am i to say this isn't the best matchup it's just the least compelling it's just the least that tugs at the heartstrings. We've seen these teams. Of course, Vikings fans can't stand the Eagles, but the Kansas city chiefs have done the same thing now that the new England Patriots did to us for so long where we just got tired of them. Yeah. I'm as impressed with Brady as anybody else. Yeah. Yeah. Now that's true is that the Patriots had a pompousness about them that the chiefs maybe don't have quite in the same way. They also had cheating scandals and everything else, which the chiefs do not have

still those same basic story, which is everyone just got tired of them, which is why they're drawing lines on TV pictures to be like, see, if you imagine where the football is, then Josh Allen got a first down. It's like, guys, it was, it was refs totally fine. Uh, but here's the question of the night is when we look at that roster and we look at what Howie Roseman has done with it. And, uh, it was a many year process by the way, to get to the point of having a roster, this stacked, uh, how do the Minnesota Vikings get to be on this level? Murph, if you were going to say next year, the Vikings match up with the Eagles, or they do play them,

and we're going to do that preview and go, all right, hardcore preview, position by position. Let's take a look at it. How do we get to the point where we're saying, you know what, this is pretty close or, or this is pretty even because the Eagles have built a juggernaut. And I think what we've seen year after year, especially in the NFC, where there's no Mahomes is the 49ers. When they built the best roster, they made the super bowl and the Eagles, when they built the best roster, they made the superl. Kweisi Adafomensa in this front office has to do the same thing for the Vikings.

Yeah. Drafting and development matters. I mean, that's what Philadelphia did four or five years ago. And you wrote about that too. They pivoted, they made their decision, not just at the quarterback position, but how they were going to rebuild a roster. And it's also their defense. I think it all starts with their defense, really, like how tenacious it is and how it's withstood challenges from a lot of different doubters and sort of broadside hits toward the season, even though they won as many games as they did. at the old school way with offensive line play in Barkley and a shutdown defense. But that shutdown defense has now made it difficult. The way they're coming after quarterbacks, I mean, Daniels was, you know, he was the best player on the field for Washington, but he was also confused and he looked awfully confused when he didn't look confused in Detroit or Tampa as well.

So are you going to be able to really match power and fury on either side of the line? Because that seems to be where Philadelphia over the years too has also dominated Minnesota. I can think of those Thursday night games in the last couple of years that they've had in Philadelphia where it always seemed to be that the Vikings were out manhandled, out physical, and that's a horrible place to play, but it never felt like the Vikings were able to match them sort of mano a mano. So in that matchup next year, and we're already talking about, you know, shoring up a running game, prioritizing a running game now as the pendulum may be swinging back toward more dominant

running games, but also fixing that interior line, which we've been talking about for three weeks and 10 years. That kind of manifests itself a little bit more now when you look at how physically dominant Philadelphia is on both sides of their lines. So I think when it comes to like matching them position for position, it's going to be almost impossible to achieve in one year because you mentioned the drafting.

And now we need to keep in mind that the Vikings have drafted under Kweisi Adafo Mensah, 23 players. But before that they drafted many, many Rick Spielman players that did not work out and did not form a foundation of a defense, which is one of the reasons they had to go in to free agency. And then when they did go into free agency, they built a top five defense from doing that. So there, I think, will be more hits in the future in terms of their draft, but they don't have a lot of picks. Right. So that it starts there where like, well, can you do the same thing? in the future in terms of their draft, but they don't have a lot of picks, right? So that it starts there where like, well, can you do the same thing?

Not really because they're not going to have as many picks. So it's really going to have to be done a lot through free agency or trades. I don't think you can match Philly in terms of how they play because so much of it starts with their quarterback that the offensive line is fantastic. They also got beat by the Rams for five sacks from Jalen Hurts, but that running game really starts with Jalen Hurts. He is so dangerous as a runner that you see all the time where the defense has to give one player at least to Jalen Hurts on every single play

because if they don't, he's going to be a main part of their running game. And that is something that Manny, I don't think the Vikings should try to copy their style and how they play. And I don't think they will, but I think they have to have answers for the things that Philadelphia does well. And when I look at Kansas city, I almost think there's more to take away from Kansas city for the Vikings because they don't have a perfect line, but they have, they have Xavier worthy who runs a four, two, and they get the ball in his hands all the time. And that's where I feel like they need another playmaker who you can get the ball into their hands and, and easily in screens and quick throws underneath and get

yards after catch. They were not a yards after catch team. I don't think there's any combination of free agents that they can sign unless they get the top three players in all of free agency on the offensive line and put them in the middle. That is going to just be like, okay, they're good now. They're going to steamroll everybody and watch out Jalen Carter because you're getting run over by these offensive linemen. I truly don't believe those players exist in this free agent pool. So I think it's a combination of roster building along with adding some other things for Kevin O'Connell to use offensively. And then the defensive tackle position, of course, has been a long time

obsession of this show, but I think it's more complicated than just guards everybody get them yeah well i mean you you said it like the eagles have one of the top two offensive lines in the league and we even saw them uh certainly against the los angeles rams in the divisional round they got dominated by that really strong rams defensive front so even you know you put the best up against the best and the defensive line was still able to win a lot now obviously the eagles still came away with a win because they picked up some turnovers on their side of the ball defensively and saquon barkley just went berserk against against the Rams in the running game so that part of it is gonna would help too in terms of if you're thinking from a Vikings perspective how do you sort of bolster that running game and you know add more of a home run

threat you know it'd be great to have a player of the caliber of Saquon Barkley at 27 years old when he's like right into the peak and prime of his career it's also just kind of like timing I think plays a big role in that too and that's a credit to Howie Roseman again for identifying a guy like Saquon Barkley a superstar talented running back right at the point of his career where he's probably going to peak if he stays healthy. And he capitalized on that this year. Now, Saquon going to run for 2,000 yards again next year? Probably not. Just doesn't happen that often. But, you know, it just seemed like everything kind of aligned perfectly and the timing was really good for them. But with the Vikings, I think it's, I think you have to continue to add more talent. But also, I think we talked about the quick passing game and everything.

I think it's also going to take some evolution from Kevin O'Connell as well. It doesn't mean completely overhaul your offense, but again, sprinkle in different concepts and different elements to your offense to try and make it a little bit more dynamic. That's what's going to help too so that you can at least be in a position where if you're going up against a team like the Eagles and Saquon Barkley's running all over the place on you,

you've got to be able to have the horses on the other side of the ball too to be able to consistently kind of match that to be able to go toe-to-toe with a team like Philadelphia that's just so high-powered on both sides of the ball. I have a question. I was thinking about it as I was watching the football and a conference championship weekend is all of a sudden Kansas city comes out and makes Patrick

Mahomes a running quarterback again. And they never did that all season long, which is smart. You should not be using Patrick Mahomes, running them out there in some random game against the Texans or whatever in the middle of the season. You should save that for the playoffs. But when you look at the four quarterbacks who were there, Jaden Daniels, one of the best to make it plays with his legs. Josh Allen, one of the best, not, I guess, when the other team has figured out the tush

push, but put that aside. And then I truly believe that it all starts with Jalen hurts for why they are so successful. And those tush pushes for Jalen hurts, by the way, his strength needs to be added into that discussion. It's like, well, they got the line is true, but that guy also squats like seven bazillion pounds. That was a whole thing when he was coming out in the draft. By the way, when Jalen Hurts was coming out in the draft, I was there at the combine and they asked him

if he would play other positions, if he was interested in that. Guess not, since he's in his second Super Bowl. Anyhow, I had this thought that J.J. McCarthy has to be a running quarterback for the Vikings to get to this level. And I don't mean he has to run for a thousand yards, but I mean he has to be a running quarterback for the Vikings to get to this level. And I don't mean he has to run for a thousand yards, but I mean, he has to be a running quarterback, like in the way at very least of Patrick Mahomes, but maybe more than that, because you know what

he can't do. I'm sure is be the greatest quarterback of a generation like Mahomes can, but I think that they have to have the running game element from the quarterback that will counteract defenses, either stopping the run or getting pressure on him. And I know he has the physical ability to do this, but we haven't seen anyone who really has. Darnold is a scrambler, but he's not a runner. And they didn't use Josh Dobbs in the running game. I think just because he showed up mid season and he had to run the offense, but I don't think you can win anymore with just straight drop back in the pocket and throwing the ball down the field, going through your reads and anything else. And my evidence for this is that the bills defensive

tackle picked up a guard off the ground and threw him at Patrick Mahomes. I just think that the NFL has changed so much. The blitzes that you're facing, the complex defenses. If you get one protection wrong, as the bills did, you're screwed on fourth and five. I think that they're going to have to lean into that whenever it is that JJ McCarthy takes over as the quarterback of this team. Yeah. Well, it's also like, is he going to be more reliant on those underneath routes and crossing routes where he can maybe run parallel and roll out with those more to buy himself some time, buy himself a little bit of protection. You know, I wasn't a huge study of McCarthy at Michigan. I watched some of the big games. He wasn't a guy that was going to pull it down and go for the sticks that often. So what's he going to be doing on an NFL

field with a surgically repaired knee right away? So how much do you lean into that running game? But you're right. I mean, I think so much of what O'Connell designed that were the risky, time-consuming consuming developing plays downfield were aligned to Darnold's arm strength and his sort of presence as a progression pocket passer who can stand and deliver until he couldn't anymore because of the pressure. So is McCarthy, McCarthy would seem to be more nimble. A lot of people would seem to be more nimble than Darnold it's a question of how much are they going to bake in uh to the game plan uh design third and four third and six runs for McCarthy to be taking off if he reads something that allows him uh to do that is there going to be more of a is he going to have a running back that can be that

outlet valve maybe more so than Aaron Jones if that's where they draft or acquire somebody to maybe augment that game so it's kind of hard to see where they're going to be at today but it does behoove them to have somebody that's not going to run into sacks uh like Darnold seemed to run into sacks yeah and I think that Darnold showed his athleticism at times when he also ran out of sacks, which gets forgotten because he had so many against the Rams, but his two biggest highlights of the year were moving within the pocket, scrambling within the pocket and then escaping and making plays, which is great. And that's very helpful, but that's also

something that Stroud does that Herbert does. And I think when you saw how much better the D lines were than the O lines in most of these playoff games, I feel like that gap is just growing. And as much as I am a hundred percent into team rebuild the interior of the offensive line, do it for once for me, nine years of this this here every single offseason discussion is well you know they got to improve a guard it's like yeah they do and then they don't but uh i think that finally does change this year i guess my point is that if kevin o'connell goes into this offseason and says you know what we're gonna sign this guard this center and this guard. And then now we can run my offense. I think it'll still work in the off season or in the, uh, in the regular season. But I also think when you get

to play the elite teams that are totally stacked and just as healthy as you are for, you know, this year, the Vikings were healthy, but the Rams were healthy. The D lines and the D coordinators are going to win. And I think around the margins, having the answers to that is going to be the difference of whether you can play with teams like the Eagles, just as much as it is the rosters and the drafting and everything else like that. Yeah. And I think, you know, in the case of the Vikings too, if you're looking at how do they get to the level of the Philadelphia Eagles, I think you're also looking at the quarterback himself. And I think you're just hoping that he can become some way, shape or form from a physical standpoint, from a brain standpoint, elite like that that to me is just what it's gonna take if he's not going to be on the

level of a Patrick Holmes or a Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson in terms of just the the best of the best quarterbacks in the league can he be like Jalen Hurts in that he has like an elite skill set and that might not necessarily not necessarily saying he's he becomes a runner like jalen hertz is jalen hertz is an elite level running quarterback that element of his game is at an elite level but is there something in jj mccarthy's game that can become one of the two or three best in the league at that specific skill is it one of the two or three most accurate quarterbacks in the league at that specific skill? Is it one of the two or three most accurate quarterbacks in the league? Two or three most armed talent, arms in the league. Something is going to have to emerge from J.J. McCarthy's game

where you're like, oh, that guy, there's maybe one or two guys in the league that are better at doing that than him. That, I think, part of that, along with drafting well, free agency, all of that stuff is going to get the Vikings to this level. I mean, it's at some point, and look, the jury is still out on J.J. McCarthy. We're going to have to really see how things play out with him. But, again, when you look at the setup that he had at Michigan, he was surrounded by a lot of talent, and he wasn't asked to do a lot, you know, from an offensive standpoint,

there's going to have to be another level that he gets to as a professional that I think is going to be able to get the Vikings in a position to compete with the Eagles, the Detroit Lions, those elite level teams, certainly in the NFC. So you're touching on something that I've been thinking about over just the last day or so, which is, I know that every single person in the state of Minnesota wants JJ McCarthy to start next year and not Sam Darnold. And I get that.

I totally understand. But what are realistic expectations for JJ McCarthy if he does? And how does that affect their team building timeline? Because at some point, Manny, I think next week we're going to do this. I'm going to make up a fake schedule and have you pick it because we know the Vikings opponents. But if people haven't looked at the Vikings opponents for next year, there's a, there's a lot of problems on that list. There's the Baltimore Ravens, there's the Eagles, there's Washington, there's, there's Pittsburgh's defense. There the bar for him. Or if you're starting J.J. McCarthy, I don't think you could set the bar for him at dominating the NFC North, getting back to 13 or 12 wins for next year. And I guess, does that mean you go into this off season trying to

get the best offensive line you can for him locked up over multiple seasons, but then also not spending every single dollar that you have thinking we got set back a year with JJ McCarthy from where they thought they were going to be with their timeline and with their spending. And they might have to set back a year, the, some of the major investments. Now, I don't think it has to go that way, but I also think that people are going to have to be realistic. If it does go in that direction, that JJ McCarthy is going to be their quarterback because it's really hard for me to see a world where McCarthy comes in, faces that schedule, and they just sign enough players that all of a sudden compete with the Philadelphia Eagles who were

built over several years, really over a five-year process of getting here, which is going to lead to a point later in the show. But what is a, just sitting here today, not knowing what they're going to do Murph in the off season, what is a realistic expectation if they do go that way? Well, don't forget, not just setting back. He's not just setting back his development, but the franchise moved forward as far as their expectations light years ahead of what they thought they were going to. So yeah, he's going to be in, he would be inheriting a 14 win team with a lot of familiar faces looking to, uh, uh, use that as the standard. So you're right. What is that? I think they should be considering themselves a playoff team, but you can affix anywhere from nine to 15 wins on that

in your head if you need to. So they should be expected to be a playoff team or to be able to compete for a playoff spot. But you mentioned that killer schedule. You didn't even mention the division, which of course is now apparently the premier division, at least according to regular season. And I don't see Green Bay regressing. I mean, they took their lumps and they have some reassessing to do. And Jordan Love may not be the third heir apparent that we thought he might be, but that's still an awfully young and talented team. The Lions are going to be hungrier than ever with a lot of people getting healthier. And the Bears just hired the sexiest offensive coordinator they could to at least win their press conference after a year's worth of shooting themselves in the foot. So where does that leave the Vikings? You know, actually trying to pick up where they left off in August when J.J. McCarthy

went under the surgical knife, which is developing their franchise quarterback for long-term success. That may have to be accelerated. To what extent? And to what extent are they going to be selling that in the building, in the locker room? And what are they going to be selling publicly as far as what those expectations are? It's going to depend a lot on how McCarthy looks in the offseason again, per usual, how he talks, how he carries himself, and how Kevin O'Connell talks about him,

how his teammates talk about him. If you can feel a quiet confidence burning, and there seem to be a lot of positive vibes coming out of training camp last year, if that momentum continues, I think you'll see a confident team, a team that seemed to come out confident this past season when no one thought they'd win more than six games. So there should be no level of confidence. It's again, you mentioned the schedule and we don't know how it's going to line up. How bad is September and October going to look? I mean, it's two and four realistic. And is that going to mean you're jumping off the bandwagon or does that mean McCarthy's struggling or that mean JJ McCarthy is just getting an NFL education?

Yeah. I mean, I guess I'm thinking about like, I know that I know from seeing McCarthy every day training camp, I know what he brings to the table and I know his mentality and all that stuff, his leadership, and it's all very high marks for that. And that might be the elite part, Manny, is it might just be that he is a playmaker, a winner, which I totally believe in with certain players and such a hard worker that he's going to put them in position to win quicker than you expect. I'm just thinking about the timeline as far as the roster building, because maybe there is a case if you're going to McCarthy of knowing that Philadelphia is out there, knowing that you're facing the schedule and going, there's no way we can run back the same stuff. We're not

facing the AFC South. We can't just run back the same stuff. We are going to have to get every free agent under the sun to come to Minnesota, which, you know, I think that there's going to be a lot of competition there, Manny. I think suddenly with Washington emerging the way they have, if I'm a free agent and I got the same offer from the Vikings or the commanders, I might pick the commanders. Cause I know we're going to be back in the playoffs and I know that they have already an elite quarterback. Yeah. I mean, and that's the other part of it is you know jayden daniels because we've seen him already now this season you know take over this team and really sort of trans transform the the identity of this team of being a perennial championship contending type of team after being

kind of in the pits of hell coming out of the Dan Snyder era with that franchise. And the reality is, yeah, the Vikings are coming off of a 14-win season, but if J.J. McCarthy is going to be the guy, we haven't seen him play yet. And a lot of these players, these potential free agents that could come to the Vikings, they haven't seen him play yet either, so they don't know. There's still a little bit of a, an element of an unknown there.

Whereas you're looking at a team like Washington. Oh yeah. We've seen Jane Daniels play. They got to the damn NFC championship game. I want to play with that guy. And Oh, he's, he's 24.

Oh, he's, he's only in the second year of his rookie deal. Let's go LFG. You know what I mean so um that that part of it is going to to play a role in this in this too and yeah i mean with with with jj mccarthy it's it's just hard to really get a feel of where he's going to be at if he is you know anointed the starter week one 2025 it's hard to really get a feel on like what that is going to look like.

Combine that with a tougher schedule. I mean, the Vikings swept the AFC South in 2024. I don't think they're going to sweep the AFC North. Something just tells me it's probably not likely that they're going to do that. And, you know, they swept the Packers and the Bears. You know, I tend to think that maybe at least one of those two teams they're going to end up splitting with at least next season. So the schedule is going to be a little bit tougher. And, you know, I think it's just going to come down to the overall expectations in 2025.

Now, certainly they're going to need younger guys like a dallas turner to continue to grow and develop as a player as well along with jj mccarthy and become a piece because you know a year or two from now do we know you know andrew van ginkle got what a two-year contract and he's 30 years old you know what is he going to look like after another full season of being kind of a full-time defensive player? And that might require a guy like Dallas Turner to kind of emerge even more as a playmaker on that defense. So there's a lot of like, I think the Vikings have a lot of promise, but there's still a lot of like unknowns going forward with some of the players that, that they're going to need to really develop, uh, to compete with the teams that are ahead

of them in the NFC right now. Okay. I have a question about that, but I'm going to get to it in a second. First, the show has some sponsors. Uh, rocket money is one of them. If you sign up for something and forget about it, after you get the free trial and it ends, you're getting charged month after month and you're not even using it. And I learned from Rocket Money that 85% of people have at least one paid subscription going unused each month. So thanks to Rocket Money,

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So underdog, the easiest place to play fantasy sports. I will not make Murph try to do the hires and lowers for this week but you can figure it out better than he can by using the pickums and sign up with the code purple to claim your special pick first time deposit offer up to a thousand dollars in bonus cash must be 18 or older terms apply concern with your play call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit ncpgambling.org no better better time than two weeks to use that promo code purple on underdog fantasy. Here's my question. The Vikings gave an extension to Kevin O'Connell. It was really only worth one podcast because it was so obvious that that's what they were going to do. And that's what they should do. And I was looking at today, I was just curious,

where do the Vikings rank in scoring in the NFL since KOC took over? And they are 11th. Now I'd like to tell you who has played quarterback during that time. Kirk Cousins, who is routinely good, 12th best quarterback in the league. Then Josh Dobbs, who's a backup that wasn't even QB two this year for San Francisco, Nick Mullins, who's been around the league in a backup. Jared Hall started two games and Sam Darnold, who was, I believe 13 games under 500 with a 78.5 quarterback rating before he took over. And yet Kevin O'Connell has come away with the 11th best scoring in those three years and 34 wins Murph. How much confidence does Kevin O'Connell's presence give you that whatever JJ McCarthy is going to be, it will be the best version because of him. And there's another way

to ask the question is like, how much does it enhance what they have as a roster to have Kevin O'Connell as their head coach? seemingly Brian Flores returning as defensive coordinator? Well, you just got done listing all of his greatest hits in miracle working with all the harms he's been handed and all the different styles of quarterback and sort of suddenness that he's had and short turnarounds he's had to put a competitive product on the field to at least make people believe that the Vikings may have a chance, especially last year during that last 10-week slog toward what seemed to be inevitable once Cousins went down at Lambeau. And, yeah, you mentioned Flores. I mean, it seemed like the last time we had talked it seemed obvious

his opportunities were dwindling. So continuity there is going to be important. Continuity also because we don't know exactly what the pieces and parts are going to be back, that will be back, or the new pieces that are in place, either drafted and coached up by Flores, or are they going to try to play the salary cap shell game and really get aggressive in free agency. But that is so much more of a

crapshoot now than we know long-term development can be. But even if you're in there for the short term trying to find a radical solution for something. But I trust that the two of these gentlemen, I think were humbled by their last two appearances on the field, both in Arizona and at Ford Field, that what they had was a great blueprint for success until another team got under the hood and figured that out, or another two teams, namely the Lions and the Rams, who seemed to make their way with them. So I think there's going to be some self-reflection, a little bit of evolution in how they maybe disguise more, don't get stuck on certain themes that don't allow them to maybe diversify the playbook in real time

or make adjustments during games at halftime when certain things aren't working. All that said, you just still need your quarterback to not melt down the way Sam Darnold did for two straight weeks as well. And defensively, again, what is Florida going to have? I feel pretty confident, though, and I think everybody there feels pretty confident in Kevin O'Connell's ability to develop and sort of really build up, develop his skill set, but build up J.J. McCarthy's confidence and comfort level week to week within that offense. Let's see what kind of groceries they end up shopping for, though, this offseason.

Because I think about when it comes to the expectations, but also what we think of the roster and how many wins you would give that roster if it was neutral coaching. If you gave the Vikings, I think we can all agree after Kevin O'Connellconnell one coach of the year in 14 games that he's not a neutral coach he is a coach that moves the needle in the plus direction uh but how much how much is that possible for the coach to move it in a plus direction because i look at andy reed and i go you know i think patrick mahomes probably would have won a lot of games with anyone at a golden retriever as their head coach. I think he'd be okay. Uh, but then I watch how he game planned against Buffalo and I go, I, they're not winning that game without Andy

Reed against Buffalo when they also have an absolute beast as their quarterback. So how much is it though? Like Manny, how muchanny, how much in your mind at this moment does Kevin O'Connell push the needle? I think he can push the needle pretty far, but that's still not really answering your question because it's like how far can he push it? I think he can push the needle far, but I still think that it's going to come,

it's going to fall on the players stepping up to another level. I think for them to go as far as being a Super Bowl, like a legit Super Bowl contender, going to the NFC Championship game, getting over that hump and going to the Super Bowl. It's going to take, obviously, KOC's leadership, his knowledge of offense. Obviously, the scheme that he has can work.

It is effective. We've seen it have success. But it's also going to take the players to be able to do their part as well i mean it's again i mean i look at jj mccarthy and there's gonna have to be something in his game that sort of emerges and maybe maybe it falls on koc to kind of get that element that's within jj to sort of manifest um but there's going to have to be something in JJ McCarthy, rather it's his arm or his legs or, you know, his brain that can kind of set him apart from his peers.

I mean, he's, he's going to be, you know, the 2024 draft class for quarterbacks is going to be talked about a while, you know, like everybody's going to be looking at all was it six of those guys that were taken five five that were taken oh nix was the fifth guy i don't know i can't six six six guys everybody's going to be looking at those six guys that were taken in the first 14 picks or whatever and dissecting everything that all six of those guys do over the next five years and people are going to determine like well you know should the falcons pay michael pennix well what have they done since he's taken over at quarterback you know what are the patriots going to do with drake

may should they pay him how many games have they won have they had playoff success you know and jj is going to fall right into that you know at at at some point. You know, we're all kind of thinking it's going to start, that clock is going to start in 2025 where that evaluation is going to happen. And we're going to need to see him kind of ascend because not only is he going to be, you know, not only are we thinking the Vikings are going to be competing with the Philadelphia Eagles and the Detroit Lions and, you know and maybe to a lesser degree, the Los Angeles Rams, the teams that are constantly Washington, obviously, that are consistently contending in the NFC.

But J.J. McCarthy is going to be kind of looking, I would imagine, be looking at his peers, the guys that were drafted in that first round as well. And maybe us as observers and fans are going to be looking at that too and making comparisons and just seeing how all those guys do. And we're going to need to see J.J. really kind of ascend here in the next few years to a level that very, very, very few quarterbacks get to if this team is really going to contend.

So I got some fun tangled webs we weave things about the Super Bowl here. And Clifford says, what if Mahomes started with Zimmer? He would have, then Mike Zimmer would be talked about as the best coach in the NFL and he'd have two Super Bowls. That's what would have happened. Because remember, I mean, Mike Zimmer's offenses were good enough with a young Teddy Bridgewater to get them a division title and with Case Keenum

to go to the NFC championship with Case Keenum to go to the NFC championship with also a top 10-ish type of offense with a career backup. I think you're thinking of the crazy Zimmer at the end that had lost his mind and not the great Zimmer that completely overhauled the Vikings. But think about this, fellas. I bet you've never thought of this before. The Minnesota Vikings with Teddy Bridgewater gets hurt. What do they do? They go out and they trade a first round draft pick for Sam Bradford, right? Had they stayed with whoever in house?

I mean, I guess it was Sean Hill or maybe Taylor Heineke or traded for somebody else that they've trade a fourth round pick for a Josh Dobbs type. They would have won how many games in 16, maybe six or seven at absolute best with a good defense who was on the board in the 17th draft, 2017 draft. Oh boy. The 10th overall pick. I think he was 10th 11th overall pick Patrick Mahomes, everybody. And you know, here's the thing about Mike Zimmer is Mike Zimmer knows quarterback play. And you know how I know I talked to the man about it for four or five years or whatever

to start my career covering the Vikings. He knows quarterback play. I don't know that the Vikings would have drafted Patrick Mahomes with his arm talent and everything else. And then life might've been a very, very, very different world. Had that happened. Now, let me give you the better one.

The better one is how we got here. And I see a lot, every single chat, every single live show, Kwesi can't draft and et cetera, et cetera. I get it. I get it. But why did Kwesi Adafo-Menta have to trade draft picks to try to get talent? Why did they have to let everybody go get the salary cap years, $66 million after that one playoff win. And who did they not draft with one of their two first round picks that year?

Jalen Hurts and Jordan love was also there as well. Had they moved on from cousins, develop Jalen hurts for a year. And then hurts turned out to be any version of himself that he has become here. That would have come along with the rookie contract hack and lots of cap space to be spent on offensive lines and maybe a very, very different universe. My point is Murph that the, the ripples of the Vikings clutching on to the Kirk cousins mistake still are seen across the national football league today. And the 2016 mistake of trading for Sam Bradford, we still see, I mean, in a way the ripple of that, but much more to me, the Jalen Hurts one. Right. But those are moves that were made in different contexts at different times, obviously different regimes, but toward the end of the, certainly the end of the Spielman regime,

but even as Zimmer was transitioning from his, you know, benefit of the doubt era to now it's, he's owning everything. His GM is spoon-fetting him too. You had a fan base that truly believed with Zimmer leading that defense and kind of retooling it the way it was that they were going to win. They were going to win ugly. They were going to win. You know, they were outdoors for a couple of years. There was a sense of, there was, I always felt that there was a sense of they're going to go old school with Zimmer. They bid up. They bid off the old school bait because they pendulum from Frazier and they wanted to come in and have that sort of gritty.

We're not going to sell rebuild. They weren't quite dynamic enough to come up with competitive rebuild in their vernacular yet. That might have bought him another year or two. But I don't think, I'm not sure the, you know, I don't think that regime was really prepared to either acknowledge that they had to start over or how to sell how they were going to start over. This front office, this coaching staff, this feels a little bit more like, you know,

they might fleece me and I wouldn't even know it, but I'll walk away smiling. I feel like there's a little bit more of a gentle hand and a little bit more of a salesman approach to this regime than the other previous regime, which was, we're just going to pound you over the head with what we think and know is right. And we're not really concerned if you're buying into it, but we can't afford to lose the core base by selling, you know, rebuilding. We're not going to sell patients. Mike Zimmer wasn't going to put up with that. So I think they now have a regime now where they just, they have the opportunity to not only make the decisions that

they've made with the autonomy and the confidence that they've made them the last few years, but they've had to, as you mentioned, flush a lot of that, those bad decisions, those short-sighted decisions from the system. Now it's finally clear. They won't have anybody's salary cap or inherited quarterback to kick around anymore. Right. It is finally theirs. And I know from the chat that yes, they could have picked lamar jackson the reason that it that hurts is different and this is manny and i were both lamar jackson enjoyers and wanted the vikings to take that but they had just signed cousins so i understand why they didn't it was really after two years of not having success and them not looking at quarterbacks in that draft and instead drafting a cornerback

because Mike has to rebuild his defense and they couldn't take a long-term approach. That's how they got themselves in so much trouble is the fact that they just were making panic decisions all the time for the right here, right now, even drafting a center in the first round in 2019, because while we've got to win right now, and we've got to get this guy for our outside zone system, as opposed to ticket taking premium positions that they had come short on. I also think Manny too, that with the environment they created, and this is very different from now, the environment they created was so bad that even winning a playoff game and getting to

10 wins, it still felt like a horrible season in 2019. And that sort of forced them to double down on what we have to get back or we're going to get fired. Yeah. I mean, there was so much just like drama in 2019 that went on, you know, you have the digs thing where he went AWOL and, you know, truth to all rumors stuff and the rumors about Mike Zimmer, you know, getting traded to the Cowboys if they got beat in the playoffs. And then lo and behold, they go into New Orleans and win and then they no show against San Francisco. There was just so much frustration. I think, you know, I remember being very frustrated just watching that team, even for as well as they played at times, especially during the sort of the Kirk-tober, the great month of October that they had after the really bad game in Chicago. They ran off like a four-game winning streak during that time. But the reality was that what they did in 2019 was really the best that they were going to doshowed in san francisco you've talked about this a lot

collar like that should have been the the sign that the page needed to be turned that you know and maybe you do maybe you still that includes moving on from mike zimmer and you elevate kevin stefanski to head coach and you go that way and you know you move on from cousins and you or at least you you don't sign kirk to an extension and then you know, you move on from Cousins and you or at least you don't sign Kirk to an extension. And then you look to draft a young quarterback to, you know, like a guy like Jalen Hurts late in that in that first round in 2020. So, I mean, that was a very pivotal, pivotal moment in the history of the franchise where they needed to take a certain direction and they didn't do it. And like you said, they got themselves into a lot of trouble. And, you know, I think it's going to be very important for, and Kwesi and KOC have already

kind of shown some signs that they're able to do this. It's very important to be realistic about where you're at as a franchise and to be able to take the necessary steps to, you know, put yourself in a position like you are with the Eagles. Um, cause because the Eagles did that. I mean, they literally did that. They saw, you know, just a couple of years removed from winning the Superbowl. They saw that the writing was on the wall for that era of players and that it was time to pivot and time to move on, um on and go in a different direction. They fired the coach that just won the only Lombardi trophy in the history of the franchise.

And they moved on from the guy who was the head coach of that team. So, you know, I would imagine that Kwesi and KOC, at least in these first three years,'ve shown that they kind of understand that as well and now i think i think they're on a right path and they're just going to have to kind of continue to do what they're doing and and they're also going to have to hope i think to for some things to kind of go their way as well you continue to build the roster and you get yourself into the playoffs as often as possible and you know maybe you get a favorable matchup. They didn't get a very favorable matchup this year. That didn't help matters either against the Rams. But I think you just have to hope that you can, you put yourself in a position to get to the playoffs every year and you just hope some things go your way and you can go on

a deep run. Yeah. I was thinking about the, because of the Jalen Hurts decision that the Eagles made and the Vikings did not that year. And remember, if you go back and look at the draft grades, which is why you should never pay attention to them. People hated the draft pick of Jalen Hurts. They I mean, the draft analysts could not figure it out. They were perplexed what they already have their quarterback. They signed Went to a big contract what the heck are they doing whatever but what they were doing behind the scenes was they knew that Wentz was not going to be able to get him back not that form of Wentz and certainly not an expensive Wentz and they already started to move themselves on which is why even though the drafting as maybe occasionally gets brought up in the comments has been so good for the Eagles and less so for the Vikings. Uh, there is the bigger picture thing that to me connects the Howie Roseman with the quasi-daffo Mensa, which is understanding that you can't bring back Adam Thielen and mess with the salary cap or Delvin cook and mess with the salary cap or Eric Hendricks. I mean, there was a week there

where the poor social media account person is having to put thanks for the memories to all these great players that they're letting go. Delvin Tomlinson, they let go Zedaria Smith. They let go. This was a all-star team of talent of guys who were too expensive and too old that after winning 13 games, 99% of franchises bring all those guys back and try again. And the fact that they moved on, put them in position to win 14 this year and have this salary cap space going forward and draft a quarterback in the top 10 and be in position to sit on the throne of gold that the Eagles have for so long with the money and everything else.

And they will have to eventually rebuild their draft capital. But I mean, the fact of the matter is that is more important than anything else. And it was maybe on my mind a lot that when they didn't do that in 2020, that's where there was that turn toward how Mike Zimmer and Rick Spielman got fired and how Kweisi Adafo Mensah and Kevin O'Connell inherited a pretty darn difficult situation. Now, one last thing for you fellas, I got an email today from a friend of the show asking if the Buffalo Bills and Minnesota Vikings are just doomed forever. I can't tell them no, not after that. I mean, you can't even rank the disappointments

for Buffalo against Kansas City because they're all up there. I think they, I actually would say though that now after this, Buffalo has surpassed Minnesota for its football travesties because losing on a tush push that was maybe not called correctly, but they couldn't overturn it is and Dalton Kincaid having the ball in his hands and not being able to bring it in 20

yards down the field on a drive. They could have won. I think that you add that with the 13 seconds, the wide right Norwood, the wide right of last year of Tyler Bass. And then you go to the other Super Bowls where they got blown out. I'm now leaning in there and 19 years missing the playoff straight. It's much worse there. They've had it been hit over the head worse. But Murph, are the Vikings and Bills destined to be in this circle of hell forever? What do you think?

I don't think so. I only say that because, I mean, look at what happened with the Cubs and the Red Sox and, you know, even Cleveland, as miserable as that city's been, the Cavaliers finally won a championship. So, I mean, it's going to come, okay? I feel like what hurts more with the Vikings is because they're parentally in contention and usually able to pivot from disastrous seasons so fast and build up your hopes right away. And there's been an accumulation of talent at skill positions over the decades that has always brought everybody back to the table. And I do feel like they're going to break through, certainly in my lifetime here. Buffalo's a little bit more biblical, as you mentioned. I mean, some of those disappointments,

the manner in which they've lost, and just the sheer bad luck to be in the AFC at the exact same time as Patrick Mahomes and the Kansas City Chiefs is really a difficult time to see your championship window slam shut. I mean, it's somewhat comparable to, you know, Peyton Manning chasing Tom Brady around as his sort of, you know, Captain Ahab and the Great White Whale. He did finally get to him at the very end of his career, but Brady had all the rings to compare it to. I think we've got the makings of a yearly knife fight in that conference,

and I don't – if I'm Bills fans, it's difficult to hear, but I wouldn't give up hope. I feel like if you have Josh Allen, you're always going to be on the verge. And, you know, maybe to be on the verge. And, you know, maybe the Golden Horseshoes stop raining down on Mahomes and the Chiefs if they get their three-peat. I mean, it's awfully difficult to preserve rosters. And it's hard. You know, what other drive are they going to make up?

I mean, that fuel is still burning in Josh Allen. He may still get his yet. Manny, they curse forever or what? I've always had the belief that curses are kind of fun to talk about, but they aren't real. I mean, Collar, you've heard me say that before. I don't really like truthfully believe in them. Sometimes it's fun to kind of, when something happens,

it's kind of fun to sort of poke fun at it and just say oh yeah that's just typical typical vikings you know letting us down in the playoffs oh the the bills you know the bills lose to the chiefs again and oh it's just it's just hopeless but ultimately i mean these things i mean murph brought up the cleveland cavaliers i mean that was the entire city of cleveland not having won a championship. The Browns letting them down. The team now known as the Guardians coming close in World Series,

ironically, against the Cubs in 2016, blowing a 3-1 lead. Eventually, it's going to work out in your favor. And again, like I was saying earlier with the Vikings and with J.J. McCarthy as they go forward here, I think what KLC has got to do is find a way to just continue to get to the playoffs as often as you can and continue to build a competitive roster.

Now, you do have to be careful because a minute ago I just said the Vikings, Spielman and Zimmer kind of overestimated roster now you do have to be careful because a minute ago i just said like the vikings you know spielman and zimmer kind of overestimated or i guess underestimated the the dire situation that they were in going into 2020 and didn't realize that it was time to pivot and go in a different direction um so you have to be self-aware about that as well but i think if you are able to continue to put yourself in positions to go to the playoffs every year, eventually something is going to pop and happen in your favor. I think you just have to hold out hope and just see what happens. I don't I actually don't really think that either team is cursed.

It is kind of fun to talk about once in a while, though. I can't figure out whether Josh Allen is actually, as Murph said, Peyton Manning, and it's going to happen at some point. I think it took Manning eight years of his career to get there. But he also could be Dan Marino, where he just has amazing season after amazing season. Phillip Rivers was this way, too. Just an all-time great player who had great teams at times. And then when they weren't as good of teams,

they couldn't get over the hump. And Dan Marino was playing in the same conference as Jim Kelly and the legendary bills. And then the Broncos rebuilt their team and it just didn't come together. And they had that one shot in 94 and somehow blew the game to Stan Humphries at the very end. And that is just, you miss your opportunity, right? So I think there should be a lot of worry there that Sean McDermott is Marty

Schottenheimer and his teams are always going to be just good enough, but not quite. I tend to think yes, that there'll be able to break through, but I also think, my gosh, how many times can you get this close? Right. I mean, and there's just not even that many times in football where you get this close. As close as they were yesterday, the Vikings have only been, what, three times since we were in grade school, Manny? I mean, really, like the Bills have done that in the last five years, have been that close. Will they continue to be able to do that year in and year out? And also another thing

is too, and this is just silly, but I just, I watched a Orlando magic documentary with Shaq on a plane not too long ago. So it's in my brain, but they were so good. And then they lost in the playoffs and they got swept in the NBA finals and they eventually kind of turned on their coach, even though he was great and they, they had all their stars, but I wonder about that with McDermott. And it's not that he did anything wrong this year. It's just eventually you sort of get tired of that. That happened with Tony Dunchy in Tampa Bay. They got so close and they were so good and he turned them around, but eventually they kind of got tired of it and they ended up changing coaches. So I've got, I mean, if I was there today, I would have so many questions about

how the heck do you get back? The road is always so long, even if you have a great quarterback. So I think the Vikings just to circle back and put it, let's put a bow on it guys for the evening. I think the Vikings, if they play their cards right in free agency this year, in the same way they did last year, can resolve a lot of the issues to have a starting lineup that contends with the best teams in the NFC. I also think that we have to be realistic on a timeline if they're turning to a 22-year-old quarterback. If Darnold comes back, then expectations are more complicated

because you're not winning 14, but I think you could actually have a stronger team overall because you've got the two free agencies and they can still spend it. And you know, they didn't, they didn't expect to be there at that point. But then if Darnold does come back, the expectation is you better be at the top of the NFCc north again or you've wasted everybody's time and completely failed so i'm gonna put it uh guys i just want your final comment on that vikings versus eagles as complicated it's sort of a complicated comparison to try to make because that team was built around a young quarterback and around a lot of drafts but also a lot of really, really super savvy moves like trading for AJ Brown, uh, the free agent signings, the guys they've been able to bring in.

And it sets the bar very, very high to try to match just by next year. Yeah. I think putting 14 victories as an expectation on next year's team is, is, is, is as unrealistic as if anybody had put 14, uh, on them in August, which I think everybody would have thought, no, that's entirely unrealistic. So what Manny said really struck me was just get to the playoffs, get your reps in, be competitive. Things can happen. Weird things do happen. Underdogs do get hot. I think that, granted, Arrowhead is still a very difficult place to go into, obviously, and win, especially from someone with the championship pedigree that the Chiefs have. But, you know, home field advantage now just seems to, is it 51-49? How close are we to getting to, especially in the playoffs where all the

conditions being equal, boy, it's, I take my chances with anybody in any stadium when you've gotten to that level, gotten to that point of a season with that kind of confidence. So to just get into the tournament every year, I mean, I think that's what's going to make McCarthy better. You know, Bo Nix is going to be better next year, despite getting swatted around a little bit by Buffalo, but he got his taste and he got to experience what it's like to be on that stage. I think it's important that the Vikings are competitive enough and McCarthy's successful enough to put him in a position to get a postseason start, because that's what's going to help with Bo Nix getting better look what's already happened with Jaden Daniels he's got to catch up to that 2024 class

right and we I think we have to also if they're going to go that route we have to give some leeway for that uh as we analyze them for next year final thoughts Manny yeah I'm I'm with Murth I think it Murth. I think people have to kind of temper their expectations a little bit going into 2025. If it is J.J. McCarthy, that's going to be the starter. And I think it's going to take a lot of patience because I know there's a lot of people that are high on him and excited to see him play. But I think there also has to be a realistic expectation that he's going to make mistakes and he's going to throw interceptions he's going to have bad games that just comes with being a young quarterback i mean jayden daniels faced for as great and dynamic as

he was this year and getting the commanders to the nfc title game there were some games that kind of left you scratching your head like what's going on with this kid? And that was a guy who had started a ton, a ton of games in college and threw a lot of passes in college. J.J. McCarthy is still going to be a little bit green as he goes into the 2025 season if he is indeed the starter. So there's going to have to be, I think, some patience from the fan base in terms of, you know, facing some of the growing pains that we're going to see him have.

And, you know, I think it's going to be important for people to realize that the Vikings go 10 and seven and maybe are a little bit short of the playoffs or they are 10 and seven and their wildcard team that's one and done again. You again, that doesn't mean you have to fire the coach or move on from the general manager. I think you just have to see how things kind of play out, and you have to let this thing sort of build and grow and develop. I mean, let's not forget the Philadelphia Eagles, for as much as we've been hyping them up during this show tonight,

a lot of people thought that it was going to be time for them to fire you know a year ago today people were thinking it's time to fire sirianni that that locker room is toxic look at the way they melted down you know how are they you know how are they even going to come back from this and now you fast forward 12 months and here they are in the super bowl for the second time in three years so this this league is, is crazy. A lot of crazy things can happen. And I think, you know, if you're the Vikings, I think you just put your best foot forward next year. You go and spend in free agency. You hope to hit on some draft picks and you know, you, you give it a run with JJ McCarthy next year and you see how it plays out. Something that's important is that they got the O'Connell

extension done from reports. It is five years, which means to me that O'Connell, and I'm assuming that we're going to hear about a quasi-adaffo Mensa just based on the Schefter report extension as well. I would also imagine it has to be the same amount of years. I don't know why it wouldn't be. So maybe that's the holdup. I don't know. But when it comes to having a regime that can think broader all the time, as opposed to just, we got to do it now. We got to make every, every crazy possible move to win right now. That gives them an opportunity to more deliberately build this thing around JJ McCarthy,

whether it is this year or whether it is next year to be like this. I don't know if you could just push like mash the free agent button and suddenly everything is just resolved and you're the perfect football team in one season. I think it's going to take a little more of a deliberate approach than that. So Brian Murphy, Manny Hill, I'm really glad that we, during the playoffs pivoted to round tables because I've really, really enjoyed these discussions with you guys. And I hope we can do it again, at least once more before the Superbowl. So Murph, Manny, thanks so much for your time. Thanks everybody for watching and listening. We'll be live again on Thursday night.

Well, Manny and I will Murph, you know, two times in a week can't happen for Murph. But on Thursday though, I am going to invent a fake schedule for next year and have Manny pick it and we'll see how that turns out. So that's something to look forward to. Also my future of the Viking series. I released the defensive line. Let me tell you, there is a lot of defensive tackle options for the Minnesota Vikings. I ran through all of them over at purple insider.football.

So make sure you check that out and we will catch you guys next time. Thanks everybody. Football. Football. Football.