Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - How can the Vikings reach conference championship weekend in 2025?

Episode Date: January 24, 2025

Matthew Coller, Manny Hill and Brian Murphy analyze where the Vikings need to go in order to be playing this weekend next year and discuss who they think will win the games. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of purple insider, Matthew collar here, and it is time for another round table with Manny Hill and Brian Murphy fellows. We have championship weekend Vikings off season, lots to discuss. So I've asked Brian to put together his list of all of his favorite free agent guards. No, I'm just kidding. That didn't happen. But some of us did that over at the newsletter today. If you want to check it out, purpleinsider.football for all your guard needs.

But we're going to talk a little more broadly here. And I want to start you guys out with the question from the headline, which is how can the Vikings be playing this time next year? And I think Manny, that we did a show around this time, similarly, where we were talking about this in 2023. Hey, how could the Vikings get there? And I think our answer was if they drafted a quarterback who was awesome right away, and then he took them there. We didn't exactly pin Sam Darnold on that, but I think we had decided that's not really possible for next year. And then here they were

winning 14 games. So without giving every possible explanation to what could get them there, Manny, you go first. What is it that pops into your mind when I ask you that question? I think it just, what comes to my mind is, I think it's going to have to be a similar situation to what we saw this, this season where, you know, you get a lot of things that go your way. You get, you know, I don't know, I don't know how favorable the schedule is going to be next year because it's it's going to be tougher i mean they're going to play the afc north next year and that's that's not

going to be easy um but you know i i think the schedule is going to have to play a part in it i think being healthy is going to have to play a huge part in it i mean that's what allowed them to win 14 games this year was that they were pretty healthy i I mean, losing Derrissaw was a huge loss, but they were able to go and get Cam Robinson to kind of fill that void a little bit. And Cam did okay in that spot overall. But other than that, they stayed pretty healthy for most of the season, especially on defense. And when anybody got nicked up, there was always somebody ready to step in

and kind of handle things for a little bit even when stefan gilmore went down you know we saw fabian moreau step in and kind of hold the fort down a little bit and it wasn't a complete disaster so i think it's going to take another circumstance like that and as all three of us know that's not a guarantee to have two straight seasons of pretty much complete full health, fully healthy roster. So I think it's going to take that and it's going to it's going to take, I think. If the plan is to go forward with J.J. McCarthy starting for the first time next season, it is going to take, you know, an effort from him that is going to be maybe beyond our expectations of, you know, he's going to have to play probably beyond his years, beyond a 22-year-old playing NFL football

for the first time. It's going to have to be like a C.J. Stroud in 2023 type of performance. That's what it's going to take, I think, for them to get in a position to be where the commanders and the Eagles and the Chiefs and the Bills are right now. What'd you think, Murph? Yeah, a competent quarterback play in the postseason. I know that's not, that may be asking too much, but what we saw obviously from Darnold against the Rams and the week before in Detroit really indicated how difficult it is to win if your quarterback is face-planting every moment, every big moment. So there are a lot of facts. No two seasons are alike. I don't think

the Vikings can certainly, cannot lean on the fact that they are going to be relatively injury-free. There are probably going to be particularly devastating injuries. We can talk about improved guard play. We can talk about whether Brian Flores is back dictating what kind of a defense it's going to look like because there's a lot of veteran questions. All of that to me, though, really, it's very different. And Manny mentioned the schedule. So yeah, they have the AFC North in this cycle. But lest anyone forget, the NFC North is now the powerhouse division, or at least we think it is. And with the Bears bringing in Ben Johnson now from the Lions to be their head coach, you could arguably say that this division has the youngest, most

dynamic coaching minds in the league. So I don't see Green Bay regressing. I certainly don't see the Lions regressing. The Vikings may take a step back, but they're going to be in the mix again. And what's Johnson going to be able to do with Caleb Williams in terms of resurrecting the Bears? But all of that is great conversation. But until we know who's taking snaps, it's kind of difficult to project right now. Let's just assume it's going to be McCarthy. And whether it's McCarthy straight out, he's anointed, McCarthy outduels Daniel Jones, or they do bring Darnold back and there's a competition, and McCarthy ends up week one starter. What's the standard for him?

I think 14 wins is asking a lot, because again, he may not be a rookie, but he's a rookie slash second year player because he wasn't on the field all season. And if Jaden Daniels and Bo Nix are setting the standards for that draft class coming out and performing, you know, Nix led the Broncos into the playoffs and Daniels is playing Sunday. Can McCarthy reach that level? They think he can because that's why they drafted him 10th overall and he was part of the star studded draft class. It's just really difficult because we have no frame of reference for what he's going to be able to do coming off the knee injury, and we have no frame of reference of what he can do in an NFL game. So there's always the wild card, asterisk, question mark, well, what's your quarterback situation going to be?

But for the Vikings, it's as glaring as ever. Well, and that's, I mean, it has to be but for the Vikings it's as glaring as ever well and that's I mean it has to be where the conversation begins is just what kind of quarterback play do they get next year because if they do go to J.J. McCarthy we have no idea what that's going to look like or how long it's going to take him the last I saw him I felt like he was getting pretty darn close to being ready to start once Sam Darnold stumbled. Now, the way that the season went, Sam Darnold would not have gotten replaced. I don't even think he would have gotten replaced after Jacksonville. They would have just kept rolling and racking

up wins and he would have spent the entire time on the sideline anyway, and gotten a lot more actual practice behind the scenes. But I don't think that he would have gotten into too many games for last year anyway. So we really have no way of figuring this out other than to say, well, he developed a lot and he looked like he was pretty close and he certainly is darn talented and he's a very good leader and he was developing his accuracy and he has playmaking skill and everything else. All of which was done on a healthy knee. Right. That's correct.

And do we think that he is beating the Rams? No, no, I do not think he was. I don't think that there are many quarterbacks, unless you are a much better runner, I guess, than Sam Darnold, or if you had a game plan that got the ball out of his hands a lot quicker. And I guess that's where I was thinking, because we have no way of talking about in this discussion. Well, I think McCarthy's going to be this, or he's going to be that. Cause none of us really know. I think he's going to be great right away. I think it's going to take him four games. Like we would all just be completely guessing a Bo Nix had that game where he threw for like 60 yards. And I think everyone decided,

ah, this guy, he's not all that good. And then he went on a tear at the end of the year, makes the playoffs and all that. Like it's always Rocky for rookies. Most of the time, even Jaden Daniels had a dip in the middle of his season. So did CJ Stroud his first year, there were some Rocky games in there and he fought his way through it. So we really have to look at the other parts of it. And as Kevin O'Connell takes on a contract extension now, uh, Murph, I think that this is like, this would be an area for you because you've seen so many coaches come and go and different, uh, cover different coaches and things like that. I think that the first part of O'Connell's phase with transitioning through the competitive rebuild was spectacular, nothing short of it. But now the bar moves, the goalposts move to, Hey, winning in the regular season is great. Having everyone

talk about you helping quarterbacks is great, but now without anything else in the playoffs it's not going to mean a whole heck of a lot for him so he's a victim of his own success here that now we're talking about you kind of have to be competing for this next year with this new contract extension or it's going to be disappointing yeah he set he set himself up for, you know, being harshly judged mainly because of his playoff record and the fact that his teams really just seem to look unprepared, unprepared for what was presented them at the time and adjusting during that game to what those opponents were kind of making the Vikings struggle. So I, what, that is something that he has to deal with. It seems like, you know, we don't know about Flores totally yet, but it seems

like he's going to be coming back, at least just reading those tea leaves now. So there's some continuity there that'll help. I think he's a great coach. I think he's really handled walking into a toxic situation and putting together two of the finest regular seasons in franchise history. You know, you can make an argument that we'll, I think they were smart business folks by letting this play out. I don't think there was any hurry to give them an extension and just this sort of notion that, well, you know, they're disrespecting him or they're waiting too long or, well, you know, they're disrespecting him or they're waiting too long. Well, you know, it was a pretty shrewd business move to not jump into anything. I don't think there was any sense they weren't going to extend him,

but it was the timing. They didn't do it before this season, and he was racking up these wins, and then there's this, well, maybe other teams would love to trade for him. And, you know, that's just stirring up dust where it doesn't really matter. I don't think there was any sense that the Vikings or O'Connell are ready to move on from each other. So he has created an environment that is kind of the envy of the league. You know, all those player surveys and free agents coming and going,

you don't hear too much complaints about the facility in Egan, O'Connell's style, how he addresses players publicly, privately, how he builds them up. His work alone with Darnold and even inheriting cousins in 2022 deserve accolades. So he's going to have to answer in the postseason because that's how ultimately coaches are measured and paid and legacies are formed. So I'm guessing he's got some lessons that have been learned because there were two very distinctive playoff losses, but they were kind of similar in the sense that the Vikings were completely overmatched once at home to an inferior opponent and once in a neutral site

against an opponent that seemed to be teetering on the edge all year of being either mediocre or great. And the fact that, you know, the Rams were handled pretty well in Philadelphia, despite the elements, but it just feels like there, that was a lost opportunity for the Vikings this season. So yeah, there's a lot for him to prove, but I feel like he's got the pedigree and he's positioned himself well for success here. Manny, I got a stat I want to throw at you because I know what a lot of people's answer is going to be when it comes to this. It's they need better guards. It's always that they need better guards. Always. I mean, I haven't had 10 years, truly every single year that I've been here. The answer

to why the Vikings haven't gotten over the top is guards. It's always been guards. And, you know, I think that that should tell you a little something. And part of it is that there's just not that many great guards in the NFL and looking at the free agent list again, purple insider dot football, go sign up for the newsletter. There's a few Tevin Jenkins, Trey Smith. You probably heard their names already. And if you can get them, then they will upgrade your offensive line. But Manny, I think it's more complicated than that. I don't think it is just a matter of guards ring. Like I just, sometimes we feel like we act like that, but I think that, you know, when you look at Washington, they had a lower graded offensive line by PFF than the Vikings did this year. And they had a much better answer to Detroit. And maybe part of that was because of what they did to the Vikings. But I think that what Kevin

O'Connell is going to have to understand is that the playoffs are a different football. And I'm sure he knew that as an offensive coordinator and saw McVay do it, but as the head coach and having the counterpunch when teams can take advantage of every little weakness that you have, and they spend every waking moment on that game and that game alone to try to win it. And when you're going up against the teacher, your mentor, the guy that hired you, Sean McVay, he's going to know every single week you got and how you're going to try to answer it. And I think we've seen a lot of coaches through the years learn in the playoffs by their failures and eventually get over the top after that. So where would you look at for learning from the failures to try to improve

when they get a shot here in the near future? It goes to something that we have talked about really for the entire 2024 season when we saw the Vikings have some struggles on offense. It's implementing more of a shorter passing game. And that doesn't mean that you get rid of the deep shots, the big play opportunities. You don't want to take those away. But the part of KOC's development and growth as a head coach and as a play caller, you know what I mean? Because he's never been a head coach before this particular job.

So there is sort of this learning curve that he's finding out now in these first three years. But one of the things that you're going to have to be able to do is especially as you get to the playoffs and you're playing better teams every team you play in the postseason is good there are teams that are better than others kansas city philadelphia we know those teams are great teams that can win championships but every team you're going to get matched up with in the postseason is good so you have got to bring your a game you cannot have lapses in your game plan you cannot have uh weaknesses that get exposed and when you do have a weakness that get exposed you've gotta to your point you've gotta have a counter punch and to me the counter punch in the case of the

vikings is you got to get some sort of a short passing game going. You can't continue to have, especially early on, when you can see Sam Darnold is going to have a hard time being able to deliver those deep shots down the field. Because either A, he's not seeing the guys, B, the protection's breaking down, or C, he does see the guy and he makes the throw and he overthrows him because he's too riled up and too juiced up you've got to be able to sort of recognize that and read that situation if you're kevin o'connell and you got to say all right let's take a step back here let's let's get sam in a rhythm he seems really riled up he seems really fired up let's let's calm down let's get some shorter passes get him going in a rhythm and then we'll be able to open some things up as we progress through the game that is something that

i i think if if this team is going to take another step in addition to yeah you give me give me trey smith and jenkins both put and put one at left guard and right guard if you can afford it. Great. But we saw Philadelphia's offensive line, one of the best in the league, one of the two best lines in the league, them and Detroit. We saw that unit struggle against the Rams' front in the playoffs. So, like, it doesn't matter how much money you spend on guards. A defensive front is going to beat you up if they've got elite talent on that side of the ball, which the Rams do. And you've got to be able to come with a counter punch to that.

Otherwise, you're going to get held to nine points and you're going to get blown out of a playoff game like the Vikings did. I'm very curious, Murph, to see how he approaches, if it is J.J. McCarthy starting, how he approaches McCarthy differently than Sam Darnold. Because I think one thing about Darnold now overall, statistically, his short passing was good during the season. They just didn't do it as much as some other teams, but he was effective in, in actually, you know, operating like high PFF grade, high quarterback rating. It just wasn't as big of a part of it as, uh, throwing down the field.

But that also could be because Sam Darnold's really good at throwing it down the field. And so he leaned into that for the entire season and needed that to come to fruition in the playoff game. But the other thing that I noticed is that the Philadelphia Eagles had a running back that they could hand it off to, and he could go 70 yards for a touchdown. Their quarterback is not doing a whole lot. He's getting sacked a lot. He's getting banged up. And that was their answer. The Vikings have not had that since really Delvin cook in 2020. So two parts of that is I wonder if JJ McCarthy is better at operating things like little underneath cross

routes, or, or if he's going to think that that's the case and try to focus on that, where he threw a lot of those crossing routes in college. And maybe that's more of their, uh, their answer to this. And then on the running game Murph, I think it's become something that a lot of times in the past, I sort of rolled my eyes at like, Hey, like the running game's not going to decide whether you're great or not in the playoffs. That's an old thing. That was many, many years ago. It's going to be about the quarterback. A hundred percent of the time it is all the quarterbacks are great and they're all runners. Interestingly enough, uh, that's something that the Vikings won't have J.J. McCarthy is not

a Jaden Daniels or a Josh Allen when it comes to running but I think that that has to be a really big focus here in the offseason whether it's getting the guards or or getting the running back yeah well with Darnold it was you know he has a big arm he's known for having a big arm big stature you know the classic classic downfield threat. That's what got him out of college. That's what he came in with his pedigree. So O'Connell, with the greatest wide receiver in the NFL, found a way to make those deep shots not only a regular part of the game plan,

but a devastating part of the game plan. Now, when it didn't work out, as Manny said, when the protection failed or Darnold didn't see what was down the field or it took too long for that downfield shot to develop, he wasn't the Jaden Daniels who's going to go get you five to ten yards in an emergency or improvise or buy another two seconds in the pocket to get somebody open. And as you mentioned, McCarthy isn't necessarily that guy either because of what he did at Michigan, which was, as you mentioned, short passing game, efficient passing game,

but Jim Harbaugh was going to run the ball and win old school. What I think will be interesting is if you're watching McCarthy develop, you know, the shorter intermediate routes, bailing himself out of bad situations, those can be tools for a young quarterback to develop. If he is finding it hard to see what Darnold saw most of the season down the field or the play calls that O'Connell dialed up that called for being patient in the pocket, finding that open receiver downfield and delivering a rocket. Is McCarthy going to develop into that? He might, but I don't think you can expect him in week one to be dropping back in his own end zone and hitting Jefferson at midfield like Darnold did

against San Francisco. I don't think they're going to even ask him to do that. Now you mentioned the running game. I don't want to say the pendulum's swinging back because you've been preaching quarterbacks are going to dominate forever, and it's still true. Quarterbacks are dictating NFL offenses, but it's multi-dimensional quarterbacks, running threat quarterbacks, that really expand that threat. So you also see the value, though, of a superstar running back who can break off a 70-yard run and dagger a defense in snowy weather, which, guess what? In the playoffs, outdoors, it tends to be nasty outside. So to have a capable running back who can not only break the big play, but take the pressure off of your quarterback

is a really valuable asset. And you're right, the Vikings have sort of dabbled in that a bit, but they haven't had a home run hitter. You could argue Cook was a home run hitter, a line drive home run hitter. They haven't had the big home run hitter since Adrian Peterson, and the league has changed so much since then. So yeah, what are they going to do with Aaron Jones? Are they going to look more toward fortifying the run game, not as an alternative, but as a weapon to help McCarthy develop, take the pressure off him, and hit that home run once in a while, especially inside the 10-yard line, inside the five-yard line. Get the ball into the end zone with a battering ram as opposed to a computer mouse, which it seems like that's what the Vikings' red zone offense has become, is let's get cute, let's get delicate, and maybe it'll work

because we got great guys that can catch the ball. But it's not the worst thing in the world to go back to 1958 and just pound it through either in a black and white film. So yeah, it'll be interesting to see how they construct this roster around McCarthy if he is the guy, but they're going to construct the roster in March without necessarily knowing who's going to be the guy? Maybe. Or is training camp going to open things up to competition? Are they going to declare McCarthy on March 20th after they've assembled the roster, he's our guy? I don't think that's going to happen.

I think it's going to probably play out in camp. So it's just really hard to know what their identity is going to be until they retool the roster and name a quarterback. Well, the timeline is something because they have to decide on the franchise tag by March 4th, but they could tag him and not trade him right away and then see what happens in the NFL, see what kind of offers they get. This would be the Sam Bradford, Carson Wentz thing in Philadelphia, where they held onto both quarterbacks and then Teddy Bridgewater got

hurt and Philly got a first round pick. They, I think though, if they're going to both quarterbacks and then Teddy Bridgewater got hurt and Philly got a first round pick. They, I think though, if they're going to spend the maximum amount of money in free agency, they would want to turn around really quickly on a tag and trade and have that set in stone by the time they leave the combine. So they can trade him away right away and spend all the cap space when they get to free agency on March, whatever it is, 13th, 15th, middle of March and be able to do that. So I think by the time we get past that, we should have an answer. That's not, I say that with question in my voice, because I don't know if they want to have some sort of competition or if Kevin O'Connell wants

to slow play it more and see if McCarthy's ready during training camp and sort of competition, or if Kevin O'Connell wants to slow play it more and see if McCarthy's ready during training camp and sort of manipulate the cap in different ways. But to your point, Murph, I really do think that there is a shift in the NFL that's happened. Of course, it's quarterback driven. Look at all these guys, my homes and Allen are the gold standard in the NFL for a generation. And then on the other side, you have the wonder kind quarterback in a Jaden Daniels. And then someone who's already been to a super bowl. Of course, you're getting great quarterbacks on championship weekend. That's always in forever, but defenses play so much

two ways. They play two deep safeties and they blitz like crazy. And what beats those two things is a consistent running game, which all of these teams have. Kansas City doesn't have an explosive runner, but they run a lot and they try to control the clock a lot. And I think that's something that the Vikings absolutely need. I also did want to say, too, that we are talking about a team that won 14 games and the bones of a team that won 14 games is coming back. So it's not like Kevin O'Connell and Kweisi and Afo Mensah need to say, oh boy, we were a massive failure last year.

We better change everything. I think that they have to be actually a little bit careful about not changing too much just based on the result, because some of it might've just been bad matchup, bad timing. And remember every team that played the lions, what happened after that, they usually got beat and it happened to the Vikings twice against the Rams. So sometimes the timing, I was even thinking about this guys that if the Vikings had lost the Seattle game and they had rested their starters week 18 and just played nobody at Detroit and then gone to LA completely healthy with the coaches focusing on, you know, the, the playoffs for two weeks, rather than the stress of the, the huge week 18 game. Like, does it turn out

different then? I don't know. Like there's so many of those things that fell into line for this to be a disaster at the end, even though it was really successful, uh, all the way going through. So, uh, I want your opinion also on the defensive side, because it was good. It was not perfect. It was very, very good. And it does appear that Brian Flores will be coming back, but Manny, I think this defense also has been, it has been pumped up by a very, very, very smart man who is calling their plays on the defensive side. But I don't think that it has been a top five talent defense. So how do they get it to be a top five talent defense? I think it's going to take

a combination of everything that you're looking for when you're building a roster. You're going to have to dip into free agency again because you don't have a lot of draft capital and with the draft capital that you have, you're going to have to hit.

You're going to have to, you know, the draft picks that you use on defensive players, they've got to hit, and you might have to lean into hoping that, you know, if you take a corner at 24 or if you trade down and try to get a few more picks and you still take a corner at like 29 or 30 or something like that, that guy's going to need to be able to contribute, I think.

It's a lot to ask any rookie to step in and just be an outright ass kicker right out of the gate. Certainly, you see Dallas Turner, and I'll get to him in a second, but I think you're going to need some sort of a contribution from somebody that you get with this first-round pick if it's a defensive player. So you're going to need that, and you're going to need to continue to develop the young guys that you have. I just mentioned Dallas Turner. He's going to need to take another step up,

I think, especially if a guy like Patrick Jones is not back. Dallas Turner is probably going to need to step into that role as kind of like the rotational backup edge rusher that can step in and make an impact consistently as he kind of takes on that bigger role. And, you know, I think you're going to need, we've been talking about this, you're going to need, I think, a little bit more of an upgrade in the interior of your defensive line.

It doesn't mean that the guys you had were bad. I mean, Jerry Tillery was fine. Jonathan Bullard was fine. They did really good in the running game, but I think in order for this defense to really kind of take that next step and become like an elite top five across the board, you know,

basically what we saw from Mike zimmer's defense in 2017 you're going to need a little bit more of an impact type of guy a guy that can be you know i keep going back to akeem hicks but akeem hicks was a menace in that vic fangio bears defense against the vikings you're going to need a guy like that on the interior that can just push a guy back and make things hell for that opposing quarterback and they don't really have that guy right now they've got some nice players inside but they need an impact guy that can be be a disruptor on that side and you know and that's going to help i think with grenard and with van genkel as well i think it's

going to take some pressure off of them to have to get home all the time, every time they get pressure. So I think it's going to take all of those things. And again, you know, Murph talked about like it's really hard and almost not fair to expect a team to just be completely healthy two seasons in a row. But it's probably going to have to take a little bit of that too you're going to have to at least avoid like the catastrophic injury where one of your key players is lost for the season because they were able to to to sort of supplement the loss

of derisaw but that's not guaranteed every every time like you lose a big part they lose jonathan grenard that's going to be a tough guy to replace because now you're asking Dallas Turner to step into a role and even bigger role than he's initially going to be stepping into. And who knows if he's going to be ready for that yet. So I think it's just a combination of everything up, you know, upgrading the talent and, and trying to stay as healthy as you can. Reaction Murph.

Yeah. Dallas Turner boy. I think he's going to have to bulk up a bit. I think he saw what it takes to succeed in the NFL compared to the SEC. But, boy, when he made splash plays, they were great, including week one against the Giants. He was a menace immediately until – but you could tell throughout the season he just didn't bring the A game that the Vikings required on a week-to-week basis to be reliable enough, especially to take, as you mentioned, the pressure off Gilmore and Van Ginkle.

I mean, there were so many times those guys made the huge plays, but it would be nice to see a disruptor in the tackle position wreaking havoc on an offensive lineman the way it seemed like so many other disruptors seemed to ragdoll the Vikings' interior line on the worst possible moments, big third down plays, times when Darnold couldn't escape the pressure. Most of the Vikings, and I'm just speaking off the top of my head, it seemed like most of the Vikings' pressure came from blitzes, exotic looks, trickery, keeping them off balance, and then Van Ginkle flying in off the edge, right? Where's the push on the interior where's the shoving a an offensive guard into the backfield

to blow up a play before it even starts that's a little bit of i mean harrison phillips can bring that but there's a little bit of that missing and i don't know if that's available on the free agent market or in the draft because i think they do need corner help. And those are at more of a premium, I guess, than interior linemen. But what I do like is that if having Flores back again and having that continuity, however they reconstruct this roster, he's proven that he can plug and play a lot of different players into roles that allow them to succeed. It may not be the most continuous and predictable and menacing look, but at particular times in particular games, Flores is able to dial up the

right pressure at the right time, the right coverage at the right time. And boy, they were, you know, you talk about injuries that, you know, you don't want to suffer injuries. I don't know if you can count on, what did they have, 33, 35 turnovers? I mean, it was something in the mid-30s, right? I mean, that was an astronomical number, and the timing of those turnovers were incredible. I don't know if that's possible all the time. Some of it's luck.

Some of it's being in the right place at the right time. Sometimes you're creating them. A lot of times it's a screw-up by the other team. But I value Flores' experience, and I value his ability to kind of mix and match with whatever is handed to him. But it would be nice to see a little bit more of a menace on the interior line. And again, Kwasi cannot swing and miss with a cornerback pick or a safety pick this time around. You know, we know the tragedy that happened with Kyrie Jackson.

You can't count on something like that happen again. I don't know how they're going to be able to develop some of the younger guys. You know, you talk about developing. There's a time where you're done developing and you've got to play and make plays. So let's see how they mix all of that together. It'll be a lot easier if Flores is back, and I think there are particular pieces in place with that scheme. But a lot of it does seem to be smoke and mirrors.

So if Flores has a stronger roster with which to operate, that may make a bigger difference. I think it's really important that they get a cornerback, probably in free agency, because the Flores system, I think asks a lot of corners mentally that they get someone like DJ Reed who could just lock up a receiver when you need them to, because on third downs, when teams would attack the middle of the field, a lot of times you're sitting in zones, you're vacating those zones with middle blitzes because you don't have a defensive tackle who can rush the middle, but you have to stay in

those zones because if you play too much, they're gonna take advantage of you i think you need somebody who is able to just say all right this is a big third down it's mike evans versus you or whoever and you gotta win that rep and they didn't really have that i thought gilmore gave him a lot shaq griffin gave him a lot i'd like to see byron murphy back it's very interesting with murphy that there are levels to the free agency that works this way with safeties and corners where the best of the best get way too much money for Byron Murphy.

And then there's a huge drop to the second level guys where he exists that might be like 10 or $12 million a year, which is manageable for Byron Murphy. If he comes back, you get Mekhi Becton back. I'm sorry, Blackman, uh, not the guard. Uh, but then, uh, you get, uh, Dwight McClothern

developing, which was going to be another one of my points was that they have to develop people. And if you're not given a bunch of first overall draft picks to work with, that means Jalen Redman has to be on the field more next year and take a step. It means maybe Levi Drake Rodriguez, or I think they have high expectations for Dwight McClothern, who was really, really good in training camp. But of course he wasn't going to play over Stephon Gilmore. So they have to find some more of these guys, Theo Jackson, maybe if Harrison Smith retires, they're going to have to have some of these guys develop and get to that point where they can be reliable starters and they can be quality

playmakers. And just one thing to say about Turner, the Andrew Van Ginkle and Jonathan Grenard were second and third in most snaps played of edge rushers in the entire league this year. There was really very little opportunity for Dallas Turner to play his position. So he played 25 snaps a game down the stretch at somebody else's position at basically like the Patrick Jones type of role where it was, we just need them on the field because he can make a game turning play like he did against Chicago with the sack or the interception against Seattle. And I think that if he hadn't flashed at all, like you guys remember Laquan Treadwell's first year where it was just, oh man, this is bad. This is very ugly. Then I would be very down on it, but he did flash that

talent. We really saw it. It's just opportunity wasn't there and he needs to learn to win on the edges, but he's somebody that has to step up. There's no question about it that he has to step up next year in order for them to get out of this defense, uh, what they need to get out of it. Uh, let me take a quick ad read moment. And then I want to talk about these championship games because I'm pretty pumped for this weekend, guys. But what you're seeing here in this round table is the different levels of men's hair. We have Manny with none. We have me wearing a hat for a reason. And we have Brian Murphy just as I don't know, God just touched the top of your head and made that happen. And it's all real, folks. But we can't all be that lucky.

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hems.com slash purpleinsider. That's H-I-M-S.com slash purple insider. That's H I M S.com slash purple insider for your personalized hair loss treatment options. hymns.com slash purple insiders results, very prescription products require an online consultation with a hair care healthcare provider, uh, maybe a hair care provider. If it goes well for you, uh, who will determine if a prescription is necessary restrictions apply, see website for full details and important safety information okay which game are you guys most excited about man you go first gotta pick one oh my god flip a coin seriously um no i honestly i i'm excited for washington philadelphia because i, I'm already kind of anticipating Buffalo,

Kansas city being like another, just barn burner, classic matchup, because that's all the type of games that they play when they play each other in the post season. But Washington, Philadelphia really intrigues me because of just the commander's angle of this,

that they were not expected to get here and jayden daniels has just shown the entire world now that he is prime time and big time and and ready for these types of of moments i mean i don't i don't think anybody can just say that he's not ready for the big lights i mean he's he's gone on the road twice and won two playoff games as a rookie. He's ready for these moments. And I'm just really, really excited to see how this plays out, how this matchup goes, if he can kind of continue this,

and how that Washington running game with Robinson and Eckler and Jaden Daniels himself can kind of match up with that Philadelphia defense um and just I'm also intrigued to just see like if the Eagles can get themselves going because it's kind of been they've gotten to this point and they deserve that credit for getting this far again um after you know bowing out early last year in the post season but they haven't looked great. You know what I mean?

It's been kind of a struggle for them. Even against Green Bay, they didn't look great. And Hurts has been banged up. So I'm kind of curious to see if the regular season Eagles team that was so good and looked like one of the most complete teams in the league, if that team can show up on Sunday. because that might be what it takes for the Eagles to actually win this game. They're favored.

I know they're at home and on paper, they're the better team, but they haven't looked at their best yet in this postseason. And if they don't bring it, I would not be surprised if Washington goes in there and wins the game and goes to the Super Bowl. So I'm kind of looking at those two factors in that game, and that's what really intrigues me. Which one for you, Murph? Well, just to piggyback quickly, I'm really excited to see Jaden Daniels take the next step. I think it's important that the league have star young players that succeed and thrive in big moments.

And, you know, I also would like to see the Eagles lose ugly at home because their fans deserve nothing but vitriol. So, but that being said, let's, let's be honest, Chiefs, Bills, this is what the NFL is made for. I mean, you want to talk about storylines, legacies, history, painful, you know, painful history for the Bills going back to the 90s and their four straight Super Bowl losses to the fact that they're one and four against the Chiefs in the last five years. You know this is going to come down to some fourth quarter magic, and you know it's going to come down to Mahomes and Josh Allen. And what I, you know, personally I'm kind of rooting for the Bills

because I'd like to see them back in the big game, and I'd like to see them maybe eradicate that 0-4, 0-4 mark in the Super Bowl. It's easy to root for the Bills. But I've also been, you know, over my life, I love dynasties in the NFL in particular. I just think, you know, I fell in love with the 49ers in the 80s because of how they systematically picked apart teams and won, and how could you not admire Joe Montana and the star structure there? I wasn't a fan of the Cowboys teams of the nineties, but in retrospect, I've grown to appreciate how they built that team and sustained it. We've never had a team win three straight Super Bowls and the opportunity to actually see that, it defines greatness.

And I really am kind of looking forward to if the Chiefs do prevail, I want to see them win three. Because it's something we've never seen. There's been 59 Super Bowls, and we've never seen that. It's just sustained excellence. I mean, the Chiefs have never looked particularly dominating all season. But all they do is win 15 games and win when it matters. I mean, they've been to seven straight AFC championship games. It's the second time in four years these teams have clashed in this particular game. It's the game everybody wanted to see. I mean, the Bills and the Chiefs have been the one,

two teams in the AFC pretty much all season, and we kind of felt that this was inevitable, and it is. And I really do think that Josh Allen needs to beat Mahomes at Arrowhead when the stakes are highest because it's the one thing he hasn't been able to do, and it gets him into that Super Bowl. For Andy Reid and Patrick Mahomes, I mean, they're like the Roman Empire. It just goes on and on and on, and you can't help but admire that. I know there's a bunch of haters out there that probably don't want to see any more Taylor Swift shots, you know, in the luxury suites, but this is what sustained excellence and dynasties do. They attract attention, they attract haters, but you can't help but respect what they've done. So I think you can't lose no matter who loses Sunday at Arrowhead,

because I think the storylines are so rich and so defining. And it's going to be interesting to see whether Allen can finally slay that beast or if Mahomes just keeps rolling. The crazy thing about Josh Allen versus Patrick Mahomes is how many times Josh Allen is either outplayed him or played just as well. And something else caused them to lose, uh, whether it was their defense or if it was the 13 seconds or the field goal or, you know, the, the number of different ways that they haven't been able to hang on. And, you know, last year, Josh Allen misses one pass in the end zone where he had an open

receiver for a touchdown. And then the field goal goes wide right it's all over right there and you just go man he was that close but Mahomes is just like Tom Brady in the way that if you crack the door open ever so slightly he is going to take advantage of it and what I'm so interested in with this Kansas City team is all year long. They have played this kind of screen pass dink and dunk. It's almost like some of the Brady years where he threw 74 passes to Rex Burkhead or whatever. And you're like, huh, this is, this is your goat. But sometimes, sometimes that's what makes the goat is that they're able to morph into whatever they need to be. And in this game, they may have to be the team that hangs on to the ball night and starts getting the bills a little bit anxious. And I was really fascinated last week by the fact that the bills didn't have Josh Allen throw it all that much. The weather was

kind of nasty, but I mean, that's what you drafted him for. And he threw for like 120 yards or something. It just was not leaning on him. So if Kansas city has long sustained drives and then they get ahead a little, and then does he have to try to whip it into traffic? And they have a great secondary too, and a healthy one health home field advantage. These things are leaning the chief's way. I agree with you though, Murph, I will not allow the internet and it's BS to make me just hate the Chiefs like look you they have one of the most likable quarterbacks ever in Patrick Mahomes and I don't know why you would care if a pop singer is dating one of their players like this is the biggest

league in America no I'm sure is the first pro athlete to have a popular girlfriend that they show in the in the stands like come on i mean that's to me that's just reaching and the ref stuff is bogus yes the refs missed calls but we all didn't even want to bring it up it's just that's what i mean it's just everyone's trying everyone's trying so desperately to hate the dynasty team but there's nothing really there. They're just grasping at Strong's some players, girlfriend. Oh, the referees missed the call, man. I, you know, I covered, uh, 18 Vikings games. Never saw a missed call the whole time. It was crazy. They're just perfect this year there. It's only because we watch every chiefs game and everyone loses their

mind with every call that goes for the chiefs. But all the people who have studied this are like, I don't know what you're talking about. They actually get penalized more than other teams. And I think the ref sometimes they know about this and they flag them for holding more than maybe they would, or a legal man downfield or the guy jumping off sides at right guard. So anyway, the point just being that if they win, you can't hate it because that's just greatness and that's just success. But I don't know how you're not going for the underdog here to see somebody new in the Superbowl, because I mean, if they make it, just imagine what that town is going to be like.

And I've seen some people say, well, you know, I want the Vikings to win before these other teams. Well, you know, they've had their chance, but I think it should be the opposite way. You should be rooting for your brothers that have never been able to get over this hump. Your brethren in misery, yes. This kind of feels to, you know, Collin, you mentioned like Tom Brady just winning so much,

and it's kind of feeling, giving that same, those same kind of vibes with the Chiefs. This kind of, with the Bills going into this game, this feels kind of like, you know, if the Bills are going to do this, if Josh Allen's going to lead them to a Super Bowl and a championship, they're just going to have to find a way to beat Kansas City. You know, Peyton Manning dealt with the same thing going up against Tom Brady. Like, if he was going to get the Colts to the Super Bowl

and win a championship, they were going to have to take out the Patriots on the way to doing that. And they ended up doing that. And they were down by a lot of points in the second half of that game and had to come back and just will their way to a win. That's kind of what it's going to have to take

for Josh Allen and the Bills to do this, too. They're just going to have to go into Kansas City. You just got to win there. You got to win it in the postseason, and Josh Allen's going to have to be the one to get it done because the Chiefs are not going to just hand this to them. You've got to go and take it. And it's just,

it, I just, as a fan of, you know, the Vikings first and foremost, but as a fan of, of football as a whole, this is just the kind of stuff that I love to see. You want to see, you don't want to see any of these teams when, you know, when it's kind of handed to you. You want to see them overcome just this Goliath as the underdog, just sort of take things over and go on to the next round and finally conquer that, get over that initial hurdle that's been just holding them back for all of these years. Hey, can I ask both of you a quick question? Yeah, go ahead. I know the Bills are underdogs point-wise, and that's logical, but given the history of these

teams and quarterbacks and matchups, doesn't this feel like a toss-up anyway? Just because of, at this point, there's no secrets or mystery here. I know there has to be a favorite and an underdog, but it doesn't feel like Josh Allen is leading these, you know, knaves into the belly of the beast. You know, they've been here before, both at home and on the road, and certainly at Arrowhead. It just feels like – I feel like there's a – both teams have – this is their opportunity to have signature wins and signature moments. Both teams have had many of them, and the Chiefs more.

But I don't know if we're going to see these two clash again. I just feel like this is kind of the window for Allen, the window for the Bills. But I was just curious if you guys feel like there is an underdog slash favorite in this matchup. What are naifs? Sorry, naif, just a naive whispering. Just imagine a hen wandering in a fox house.

I don't know. Sorry, I won't go that. It was only four letters. I didn't think it was that big of a word. Morbid Murph. Jeez. I have never heard of that word in my life before, but I'll try to use it in a sentence going forward.

N-A-I-F. Naif. Okay. All right. I'll work it into the next, I'll work it into my defensive line breakdown for Monday. Yeah. I think you are a hundred percent right though, Murph, that when, even when you talk about home field advantage, is there a home field advantage when it's Josh Allen on the other side? Because he's played there, he's, he's won

there in the regular season and they've gone to battle enough times with this team in that place. I just don't see that as somewhere where he's going to be overwhelmed by the atmosphere or the stage. And the crazy part about Josh Allen is the guy has played his absolute ass off in the playoffs. His playoff statistics are just astronomical. And it's just this one team that keeps getting him. And it's usually not something that he's done to even cause that. The remarkable thing about Allen is that the one Achilles heel he's had through his career is turnovers, turnover worthy plays and throws into traffic and risks and stuff in the games against the chiefs. He hasn't even done that.

In fact, last year, Stefan digs, honestly dropped a touchdown pass, or at least a, a huge gain that he dropped right in the bucket and just didn't get the breaks. So it's really been the tiniest of tiny margins.

And Manny, I think that for this one, a lot of it comes down to just can a healthy or an, I'm sorry, a not healthy defense for Buffalo slow down the chiefs because they have been banged up quite a bit. And once the Ravens turned it on, they ran over them up and down the field in the second half. If Kansas city could take advantage of their banged up defense, then they've, then they've

got a pretty good chance but i see this to totally as 50 50 yeah i just have a hard time i mean even though the chiefs offense as a whole this year hasn't been great i think they were actually kind of like middle of the pack in terms of points per game like they're they were really carried by their defense just being so fantastic this year um but it's the the the crazy thing with them is like even though their offense statistically wasn't great this year you still have the elite goat quarterback leading them and the elite goat tight end for him to throw to who just always finds a way to get open it doesn't matter what you're doing on defense you could have the perfect defensive play called travis kelsey's gonna get open and 99 times out of 100 mahomes throws him the ball he's gonna catch it and i

think what it's gonna take for buffalo is it's i think it's going to take a kind of a superhuman performance from Josh Allen where, you know, he just kind of overcomes this great Kansas city defense and just makes place because it just feels like no matter what you do against Kansas city, they're going to find a way to, a way to make that key third down conversion, make that key touch. I mean, that touchdown, that last touchdown they scored against the Texans, like, come on.

Like, that's just not what Mahomes did on that play. That's just not fair. Like, how do you stop that? You can't stop that because that's just what the goats of this league do. They just make plays that are ultimately inevitable. So I think Josh Allen's going to have to have some, some big moments in this game, I think.

And that doesn't mean that the, that the bills have to hang 45 points on the board, but it's just when the moment comes where you need a play, Josh Allen's just going to have to make one more play than Mahomes. I think in order for Buffalo to conquer the chiefs and go going to have to make one more play than Mahomes, I think, in order for Buffalo to conquer the Chiefs and go on to the Super Bowl. And there's two stats that really jump out to me regarding Mahomes is he hasn't thrown, he's had 13 touchdowns since his last interception, which was two months ago. Oh my God. And the Chiefs have gone eight games without a

turnover at all. I mean, this is a team that just doesn't give it away. You're going to have to go in there and take it. Even if they play poorly through much of the game, they're not going to hand you a short field and give Josh Allen that chance to dagger them. That's how difficult it is. And that's, what's really determined. Most of these playoff games is the turnovers. I think that what, isn't it every single game, the team with the better turnover ratio, or maybe there was one that wasn't, but the, the team with the better turnover ratio or maybe there was one that wasn't but uh the the key fumble by mark andrews the drop pass stuff like that the huge errors that the chiefs have been known for not making guy to watch in this game i think is

trent mcduffie who is a premier cornerback in the league so good he's an incredible player i don't think that i mean they were playing sort of the corpse of Trey White for Baltimore against that team. And it's just not like the same as Kansas City's really stout coverage unit. And I think that's an advantage for them. And I wonder if they play tight because a lot of teams against Buffalo, they're afraid of Allen going up over top. And so they play way back.

And then he kind of works underneath and runs with the ball and throws those short passes to Khalil Shakir. Like, well, they actually bring their guys up a little bit and say, you know what? We'll give up your chances down the field. It's probably going to be cold, probably going to be windy in the Midwest in January. Take your shot. Uh, this matchup is just absolutely incredible. Uh I can't wait. So before we wrap up Murph, you're usually not in on Thursday evenings. We have the underdog fantasy sponsor here on the show. So we usually look at projecting some of the key players from these key football games. And if you want to play along underdog fantasy, the easiest place to play fantasy sports period, we're going to do some pick-ems here in a

second you can win up to 20 times your money by going five for five sign up with that code purple to claim your special pick and first time deposit offer up to a thousand dollars bonus cash must be 18 or older terms apply concern with your play call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit ncpgambling.org so guys i'm going to give you the numbers for Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes. You tell me higher or lower. Murph, it is higher or lower, not other gambling language. Okay. So that's important for underdog fantasy. So Josh Allen's number for total yardage higher or lower is 282.5 Murph do you think he will go higher or lower on 282.5 total yards rushing and pass I think he's going to go over because he has to make those plays Murph I just told you higher or lower higher or not's okay, Murph. I had to get used to this too.

I will explain the legal ramifications. How about more than? Higher. Higher, fine. Josh Allen will have higher than 285 yards rushing. And that's the wrong number. You got to send this stuff to me in advance, apparently. And I got a lawyer on retainer. I mean, if you want me to go through the document and figure it out uh okay murph so higher or lower

200 you want an explanation do you want context or do you want me to just say the word 282.5 yards you think higher uh go ahead and explain i'm not giving you any more okay all right he's done all right murph is done and never to have to play with underdog again you know you can sign up with the code purple and then get more familiar with it murph uh i know how to gamble and i know what words to use so uh manny you've done this before uh 285.5 yards for Patrick Mahomes, higher or lower. Let's say lower. They can control the game underneath passes. I, I think that's fair.

But the one thing he does in these games sometimes is he runs like he, he won't, he'll run sometimes during the year, but when it comes to one of these big games, I think a lot of his highlights in the super bowl and, and championship games are him scrambling and making plays, which may adjust this a little bit. Cause it's totally arts. I just, he just got me thinking about the run against the Eagles two years ago when he's running on one leg.

Oh my God. That wasn't, that was crazy. Um, and this is total, right? Two and 85 total. Yep. I'm still gonna go i think i'm still gonna go

lower not that much lower but lower i think that's fair uh david in the comments brings up the article in the athletic about the chief screen game so circling back to our conversation that was a very good article and our conversation about where the vikings need to improve maybe just read about a screen game just try it a little next year uh for kevin o'connell it's all about what you put your work into o'connell puts his work into downfield passes and guess what they're great at them but you can't you can't be great at everything all the time there's not enough practice time hey i just looked up the weather report for Kansas City too because that's a major deal, right? Okay, yeah.

It should be fine. 35, partly sunny, five-mile-an-hour winds. So it should be no issues with any offense. Oh, thank goodness because the amount of people who were bellyaching about it snowing on social media, it's not a fair representation. Oh, my gosh. Cry about it. So a fair representation. Oh my gosh. Cry about it.

So we don't get any of that. Jaden Daniels. We're going to try this again, Murph. And I think you can do it. I got it. I got it. Jaden Daniels for higher or lower on underdog fantasy. 283.5 total yards rushing and passing 283.5 higher or lower.

I'm going higher because of what he can do with his legs and what he's shown just in January. I mean, as impressive as he was during the regular season for him to be able to, well, first of all, not only lead a 14 point comeback against the Eagles in week 16 in Washington, but also to win two road playoff games in your first at bat in the post season is incredible. And I don't think he's going to be overwhelmed by Philadelphia since he's already played there. But I think his multidimensional threat will make him higher.

Okay. Manny, how about this for Jalen hurts? This is a remarkably low number, I think. 216.5 total yards. So I guess, underdog, do they think that that gimpy knee is going to be a problem? Well, and Saquon's just been racking up these 200-yard rushing games, so, you you know really all season long so they might just be anticipating that you know saquon's just gonna go off on the

running game and hertz won't need to do as much uh what was it 216 total yards 216.5 yeah i'll go higher, but again, it's like not that much higher just because of the Saquon angle. I think they, I want to say, and maybe this won't matter because Philly is just more talented than Washington, but I want to say that it needs to be higher for them to win.

I don't think his, his passing number here is 180.5. I don't think Jalen hurts can throw for 180 yards and they just win the game because Washington can score. They can move the ball. They can make plays. And if you just kind of do nothing and hand off, well, on the other side last week, the Rams fumbled what two handoffs just because of the weather and et cetera. Well, I don't think that Washington's just going to do that. And Daniels has been amazing and not committing negative plays,

turnover, sacks, all that stuff. So her test to be on point, that to me is the, the thing that is hovering in the air. Because if you just look at roster talent, experience, all that stuff, home field advantage, Philly's got it all. But if their quarterback is struggling to move, what, do you have 70 rushing yards last week? They need him to run.

So they need him to tush push. They need all that. If he can't do it because of the knee, then it could be a big factor there. All right, for equal representation, it's going to be 43, but a little windier in Philadelphia on Sunday. But still, not the slop mess that we saw last week. With a high chance of throwing full beer cans in the air. Very high.

Very high chance. Very likely. Especially with this opponent. Okay. Manny on Monday picked his teams going to the Super Bowl. So it's your turn murph who will win these football games and represent the american and national football conferences um my heart says buffalo but my head does still stick with kansas city until i see buffalo beat kansas city in the money game and

when they do it'll be glorious for buffalo but. But until that day, I still see Mahomes, Reed, and company kind of on that path to a three-peat because they have their own history to chase. But I am going to go with the upset in Philly, not just because I despise everything that goes on in Lincoln financial field, but I feel every year. There's a hot, hot playoff team and a hot commodity that kind of comes to the surface. Doesn't always get them to the Superbowl, but you realize there's something there. And I think what Dan Quinn has done in Washington has been pretty remarkable. I just see them finding a way to get it done.

Philly's clearly more talent, but I just, I just feel like this is a moment for Daniels and Washington. So I'm going to go with Washington KC down in New Orleans. And I believe Manny went with the exact opposite with Philadelphia and Buffalo. I am going to go Philadelphia and Buffalo as well. And we will see.

Whatever, there's no combination with these teams that would not be fantastic for the Super Bowl. So I really appreciate you guys taking the time for a little round table action here. A lot of fun having this conversation tonight. We will carry on our Vikings off-season coverage. We'll see what else sort of trickles in our way. You know, we didn't even get two weeks out of koc drama as much as

some people tried to make it into a big old thing it never was who would have told you guys that it wasn't going to be a thing oh yeah me so uh yeah it was me i said that uh but anyway that we didn't even squeeze a week out of that that's's unfortunate, but whatever else comes our way, uh, we will certainly break it down along with what happens at going forward, the super bowl, then we've got the combine and everything else. So there's a lot to come here on the show. Thank you, Manny. Thank you, Murph.

We'll talk to you guys soon. And, uh, thanks everybody for watching and listening. Thanks. Say football, Murph. Say football. That's what we do. There you go.