Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - How Dalvin Cook overcame the 'red flags'

Episode Date: June 10, 2020

What does it say about how the Minnesota Vikings feel about Dalvin Cook? How did GM Rick Spielman know that Cook wouldn't be a player who went down the wrong path in the NFL? What did Teddy Bridgewater mean to Cook's growth?  Plus we discuss a reporter's perspective on NFL players speaking out.  Follow Kalyn on twitter @KalynKahler and read Matthew Coller's written work at PurpleInsider.substack.com  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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with Drizway or Instacart, Coors Brewing Company, Golden, Colorado, and as always, celebrate. Hey there, my name is Ricky Smith, and I'm the founder of Random Acts of Kindness Everywhere, a nonprofit that simply does exactly what it says, promote kindness everywhere. We know the world is crazy right now. If you are searching for a podcast

that has a deeper conversation about race, my co-host Angel Gray and I will be discussing everything going on right now on our podcast, Random Acts of Podcast on Blue Wire Podcast Network. To find out more, go to ricknow.org. Enjoy the show. Hey, everybody. Matthew Collar here. Before we get into my conversation with Kaylin Kaler about her article that dug deep into the background of Delvin Cook and why he overcame some of the red flags in the draft,

just wanted to say that we recorded this podcast before news of a Delvin Cook holdout came. But I would like to say that this conversation really tells you the behind the scenes and how proud the Vikings are of hitting a home run with Delvin Cook in the draft and what's played into his success. She dug deep into it, and I found it to be very interesting, her commentary on how Cook went from a character-issue guy to one of the premier players in the NFL. So here is that conversation.

All right, we welcome into Purple Insider Kaylin Kaler, former reporter for MMQB, now doing all sorts of fun freelance stuff, including a great piece on Peyton Manning for Bleacher Report. So you make sure that you want to see her work at Kaylin Kaler on Twitter. That is L before Y, just like Jalen Holmes. So you found another person in the world, Kaylin, who actually does the L before the Y. I know. I'm going to have to meet him now.

I don't think I've ever talked to him, but we're going to have to connect over that because that's some real bonding right there. There are many funny stories that go on behind the scenes, especially when you cover a beat, and the Vikings giving Jalen Holmes a game ball that was spelled wrong is one of the little funny things that happens. And, I mean, I'm sure you feel great for getting the game ball, but come on. I mean, it's on the roster sheet how to spell it. So the reason that I brought you on is because a couple months ago

you wrote a great piece about Delvin Cook, and I had had it in my mind to connect with you at some point. The season got crazy. The Vikings had back-to-back road playoff games, so I'm glad that we could do this now, especially since we are cousins and losing our job from COVID, is the way to put it. But I want to start with the Delvin piece that you did, because a couple of years ago, when they draft Delvin Cook, it's one of those, oh, they got a character issue guy. And I remember sitting there listening to Rick Spielman talk about a phone call that he had with Delvin Cook that convinced him that he could make it in the NFL

and not have off-field issues and things like that. And as a reporter, you won't blame me, Kalen, for being like, really? You just called him and he told you, like, what was he going to tell you? No, actually, Rick, I'm a problem. But over the last couple of years, he has proven not only to be not a problem, but also one of the guys that started his own community efforts and a leader in the locker room, like a leader by example, and has developed himself into one of the best running backs in the NFL.

You dove deep into it. I guess just give me the sort of overview of your reaction from all the people that you talked to from the piece of why Delvin has gone from that, quote, character issue guy to one of the most respected players in purple. Yeah, so we wanted to do this story. We were just kind of brainstorming ideas last fall and um you know dalvin had always been a really interesting player and it felt like he was going to have finally his like first fully healthy season where you could really see

what can this guy what is what is his true peak like what can he really provide to the team because in his past two his first two seasons, both were cut short with injuries. So he was never really at full strength. So we were like, okay, I think he's going to be sort of a big name, you know, this season. I think he's going to have a really good season. So we were like, okay, you know, and his backstory was always really interesting with what you just mentioned. Like, the fact that he was that character guy and he did fall out of the first round and the Vikings felt comfortable enough to you know if you can phrase it that way like take a risk take a chance on him

so really like we were just thinking about it more kind of like psychologically like you know what does it mean when a guy is dubbed a character risk or a character guy. Like, it's such an overused term. So we kind of wanted to dig into that and also, like, dig into the question of, like, you know, scouts and general managers, it's so interesting. Like, they're obviously trained to watch film and to pick up on athletic traits and specific football traits in a player based off of the way that they play the game on the field but there isn't like a sociology course or a psychology class or you know anything along those lines that would teach you how to you know measure a person and like get dig into a

person's like personal life and their character and personality and all that so it's something that you know once you've been scouting for a while obviously you have the experience you've seen patterns you've seen things um play out but that's all you really have I mean it's it's not an exact science so we wanted to sort of explore that aspect of it of like how can you ever know what a player's character is and like why are these football people like also responsible for measuring the what's inside of you too so it's just it's just interesting and there's no it's not like there's really a solution to it it's just an ongoing part of their job that there isn't specifically like, you know, they're not all sociology graduates also.

So it's just kind of, it's just, you know, an interesting topic of like what does this really mean? And in Dalvin's case, you know, he fell out of the first round because none of the teams in the first round felt good enough, I guess, with the pattern of, you know, he had multiple legal run-ins. It wasn't just one or two. It was like, I think it was like six, five or six different instances. So I think that just added up to be too much for a lot of other teams when there were other

players available with maybe a similar skill set that were not, you know, didn't have a background similar to that. But my favorite quote in the story and the one that I think really kind of distills this whole dilemma came from his grandmother who raised him and was a really big part of his life. And she said, you know, she got a lot of calls during the process of people trying to figure out Delvin and the teams looking into him and talking to his family and everything. And she told me, her quote was, at one point I was tired of hearing it because I knew him as a person. I wasn't guessing who he might be.

A kid may have made some bad choices, but they grow up. They were so busy worrying about his past that they couldn't see what was ahead. And I think that's a really interesting point because you do have to take into account someone's background, but also it's impossible to sort of predict what they might become, especially in a new environment where this is now their job and they're starting a new life somewhere that they have never been before. So I think that was a really interesting quote, and it really made me think a lot and sort of kind of guided the direction of the story. It's definitely one of the things that translates to success

is if you have the right character to do it. In fact, it's probably number one because we've seen all sorts of people with different athletic traits, different production in college. Daniil Hunter didn't get a lot of sacks in college, but he shows up and has a great work ethic and is a highly intelligent player. And that was actually what stood out to me right away with Delvin Cook when he arrived is I think you just have a natural thing in your mind when you hear character issues that you assume something about

who the person's going to be and even how intelligent they're going to be. And listening to him talk at the first time at the podium I wrote a column about how he came across and getting to know him a little bit he's one of the most intelligent guys in the locker room and has become really obsessed with the x's and o's and trying to fully understand every part of the game offense defense defensive schemes blocking schemes all these things to make himself a better player you just don't know when a guy is drafted whether he's going to go that way or he's going to have other problems or he's just going to not care as much as you want him to care. And I also think you mentioned

environment, that the Vikings have a really great environment to drop a player in who's had issues before. They put him in his first year, on his right was Terrence Newman, who I think was maybe 39 at the time, one of the most intelligent players I've ever been around. And then on his left was Teddy Bridgewater. And if you were ranking highest character players on everybody's list, you would have Teddy Bridgewater maybe at number one in the NFL. Not that ranking characters would be appropriate,

but I mean just anybody who's been around Teddy understands the impact that he can have on other people. And I think for someone like Delvin, who maybe had grown up in a place where he wasn't around the best influences, to have Terrence Newman and Teddy Bridgewater, Case Keenum was there that first year for him, a guy who had gone from undrafted to going 13-3 in the NFL. And I think that those influences really made a huge difference in Delvin Cook's progress. Yeah, totally. And I think that those influences really made a huge difference in Delvin Cook's progress. Yeah, totally. And, you know, that was sort of strategic.

And, you know, Teddy told me that when they drafted, right away when they drafted Delvin, because he already kind of knew him because they're from sort of the same area of Miami and had, I think their brothers had been on the same like peewee football team or something. So their moms knew each other. And so they were just aware of each other and sort of friends that way um he told me that as soon as the Vikings drafted Dalvin he told their equipment manager like I want to be next to him I put my locker next to him like that's my guy I want to be there for him um I want to help introduce him to the NFL so I think that was really important important for him and helping him in that way. And you mentioned his personality.

I mean, he's a quieter guy. He's not, you know, he's not really outspoken in any way, and he's very humble. And so I think when I was asking him about what the draft process was like for him, I mean, imagine having to recount the same, like, six incidents 32 different times and probably more than that because you're answering to more than one person with each organization. So, I mean, you have to, I don't think anybody has a personality that's suited for that. But particularly for Dalvin, I mean, he's not very outgoing. He prefers to keep like a tight circle of friends and um you know he's he's not super quick to trust other people so for people he doesn't know to be asking him these very sort

of detailed and specific and personal questions i mean that's really uncomfortable so he kind of just he he looked back on when he looked back on the draft process he kind of like rolled his eyes and like let out a big sigh of like you know that was exhausting for him to go through and I think that's a really great point and I think that's probably why a lot of teams he felt like he told me that no teams he didn't feel like any teams really got to know him as a person like they were asking about these things that had happened to him or he'd been involved in but they weren't necessarily getting to know who he was. And that was why he was so uncomfortable with it, because he felt like he was being judged for all of these things that were not really what he's like as a person and his personality.

So I think that's what made the Vikings a little bit different, is when Spielman did call him on the morning of the second round on that day, I think Dalvin felt like, okay, now I'm being asked about me, myself. Like, I feel better about this. And the running backs coach, Kennedy Palamalu, has also been a really good influence for him. They're really close.

Like, you know, I've talked to several position coaches with different teams and things, but I picked up on, like, a really unique relationship between the two of them. They seemed, you know, like Palomalo's kind of gruff, and he was giving him like some tough love. He's kind of like the tough love kind of coach. So, but he mentioned like, you know, if there's anything going on that Dalvin like needs to talk about, he almost sort of like doubles his like therapist role, counselor type thing.

And like they will talk about a lot of things that are not, you know, X's and O's, and they have a deeper relationship than just on the field, which I think is also super helpful. Before we get back to the conversation, got to take a second to thank our sponsors, SodaStick. Go to SodaStick.com to get your original Minnesota sports-inspired goods. If you have not seen yet the Can't Stop the Feelin' hat, you got to check it out. It's part of an official partnership with Adam Feelin'. If you need to get some new hats for

summer, they're having their annual summer hat deal right now. Get 30% off select hats when buying two or more. Sotastick.com to shop. That is S-O-T-A-S-T-I-C-K.com. 30% off select hats. No code needed. Discount automatically applied at checkout. Deal ends June 20th. Yeah, I don't think people realize how important that is as a position coach to be able to connect on a personal level with your players. Kennedy is one of the most fun guys to interview that I've been around.

He's very just outgoing and seems to love talking to people. But he told me once about Delvin that he wants to be at his wedding, that all of his players that he coaches, that he wants to be at their weddings and know them on that personal level. And I think that when you're talking about a coach taking on some guys, especially someone like Delvin, who did not have a stable situation that they grew up in, I mean, there's just not a great way that any of us can relate to that, or most of us can relate to

how unstable it would have been for him. So to have the stability of a coach who cares deeply about him on a personal level, and that coach year after year, I think has been a major bonus for Delvin. And, you know, what have you found about just how he feels like how he's grown from that time to now? I love that you mentioned how quiet he is because he would be the world's worst salesman. And he could not, I don't know, what is it, sell water in the desert or whatever. Like he's, that is not Delvin Cook at all. But at the same time, he's shown quite a bit of personality with some of his community efforts that I think he wanted to do when he got drafted in the NFL was find a way to give back.

Yeah, I think the ACL injury that he went through as a rookie, I think that really almost matured him in a way where he realized right away. He described his first four games as being on top of the world. Like he was doing so well. He was playing really well. He was like a standout rookie and was probably off to having a great season. And then, you know, it all came crashing down. And that's how he described it.

He said like he finally had everything he wanted. And then it was like a big reality check of like, okay, this isn't guaranteed for me. Like I think, so I think that was sort of a maturity moment of like just because you got to the NFL like you're not guaranteed you're not there forever and things are not promised to anybody so I think that was a big moment for him to sort of grow up even more because he um you know had to be away from his team for a little bit rehabbing. And I think one of my favorite little anecdotes that I had in there was that he had had the team PR department, like, print out a picture of him on crutches, and he wanted to

put it in the lockers of the guys that we just mentioned earlier, like Teddy and Terrence and Xavier Rhodes. And so they signed it a little message from him because he couldn't be there but he wanted to let his teammates know that he was still all in and like thinking about them and invested um so I think that's just kind of a little bit of example of like how that injury sort of forced him to become more mature and more responsible and really really take this seriously. You know, I was talking to a sports psychologist about something like this is how people deal with adversity and how different players deal with adversity and how much they can learn about themselves, but also how much their background can impact how they deal with tough situations.

I mean, Delvin Cook had been in many tough situations early in his life. And so getting to something like that, I'm sure it was incredibly difficult and a painful experience to be on the sidelines while your team is going 13-3 and going to the NFC Championship and thinking, how can I help them, you know, be better? But at the same time, somebody who gets through that is often better on the other side. And somebody who's been through things in the past can deal with things like that. So you talk about how difficult it is for scouting departments. When you look at someone, you can read it almost in whatever way you want to. You can read it as, well, you know, he's been in trouble. He's had these problems. So he's going to be a problem person. Or you can read it as some guys who have been through some

things often come out better on the other side. And it's a fascinating push and pull that they have to deal with. But I think that one thing that translates, you can tell me if you found the same thing, the more NFL players that I talk to, the more I find that the guys who make it are usually just the smartest guys, the guys who are self-aware, who can read the situation, who can quickly adapt to an NFL playbook, adapt to NFL coaching. Like, it almost doesn't matter where you came from. If you can do those things, I think you can make it no matter what your circumstances were before.

Yeah, I totally agree. And it's just, I mean, Spielman, when I asked him the question of, like, how do you judge a character? Like, how do you feel confident about that? I mean, he basically just pointed to, well, I've been doing this for 20 years, so, you know, I feel like I have a pretty good sense of when a guy is being real with me or not. Because he even mentioned, like, there were a couple other players that he had called that morning, which he wouldn't identify, and now I can't remember that draft class right now.

But it's kind of obvious, like, who they were I can't remember that draft class right now, but it's kind of obvious, like, who they were if you had a look at that draft class, but he mentioned he called a couple other guys that morning, and he didn't get the same feeling. So, for him, it's more of, like, a spiritual, like, core sort of, like, are we vibing type of feeling, but it's never, it's just all a crapshoot really I mean you just have to I think you're right it's definitely about um you know how how intelligent you are to make that jump from college to the NFL because it is so different and just a lot more as expected of you and asked of you well it's a terrific piece and i implore people to go find it the rise of delvin cook what

happened when the red flags stopped waving which is a great headline and a great article that you did i'm curious before i'll let you go just about you know your opinion as being a reporter and going and meeting a lot of different players and talking with them about what's happened over the last couple of weeks with players using their voices a lot more than we've ever seen. I mean, even in Minnesota, I know that Mike Zimmer did not want his players commenting on political things and being a distraction during the season. And I remember specifically the Vikings struggling with what to do when Donald Trump talked about kneeling. It's like, well, do we still kneel? Do we link arms? Do we do nothing?

And ultimately they ended up linking arms and everyone sort of moved past it at that point. But now there is no moving past it anymore. And the reaction to what Drew Brees said, from a reporter perspective, it was earth shifting. I mean, we've never ever before seen players call out their own superstar franchise player over something that he said. And I think that going forward, that right there will be looked at as the moment that everything changed.

And now that more players will be willing and open to talk than they ever have before. Yeah, I definitely agree. I could see the Drew Brees thing backfiring for white players who might be like, oh, now I'm actually scared to say anything because I can see, like, the worst example of what can happen. But I don't, I hope it's not going to have that impact because that would be really sad because, like, part of this is, like, you know know I'm a white person I'm realizing this past week or so that you know I just read the book White Fragility that is like one of the like top like recommended sort of like anti-racist curriculum readings and it's all about like white people like just freaking talking about racism for finally so I think like the Drew Brees thing is a really good example of, you know, I don't know if he had any conversations with any black teammates before he commented on that, or even white teammates.

I don't know how much he had talked about what was going on with systemic racism and the George Floyd murder at all. I mean, his comments make me believe he did not have any of those conversations. Otherwise, I would hope he would have realized, you know, that that was a little bit tone deaf, and that he was really going to hurt a lot of people with what he said. So I think he was just like, in a lot of us, white people are like this, like, we have never had to confront this issue head on. And we still don't have to, if we don't want to, because we're white. And we have never had to confront this issue head on and we still don't have to if we don't want to because we're white and we have to use this moment right now to stop that mindset and

actually take it on as our own because that's what is required of us right now and I think Drew Brees probably didn't know that before he said that and I think he knows it now which is good and so I think the outcome of what he said for himself personally I'm hoping he takes it seriously now that he saw all the backlash that he did have I'm hoping like and it seems like he is taking it seriously because he has to repair a lot of relationships on that team and you know that should be enough to sort of make it clear to him like okay it is time that I educate myself on this and really take on this fight as my own. And that's basically what he said in his apology. So I think he did, I think that was a whole point like when as white people like when we do misspeak and say something that we are inevitably going to do at some point because you know we're white and we we don't come from the same understanding as um the black community does so we are going to

speak out of turn and um you know say something wrong it's just going to happen and we just have to be able to learn from that and and move on and move forward and move with it. And I think that's what the two threes sort of like example like shows us on a larger scale. His just is happening very publicly. But I think overall it's good. And like I was just talking to Billy Turner, who is a Packers guard, who's from Minneapolis.

He's actually currently in St. Paul. So he's had like, you know, just like you guys have had like a firsthand view of everything going on there. And he was saying, you know, he spoke a lot about, you know, he's black and he spoke a lot about how he is really, really loving the support from a lot of his white teammates. And all, you know, all they're doing is just texting him and saying, hey, I'm here for you. I'm with you. Like, whatever you need me to do, let me know. But he was basically saying, like, this is a huge moment for white players,

you know, and larger just white people in general, just to stand up and say, like, we're with it. Like, we support you. And to use, in the case of white NFL players, to use their platform to show support for their teammates. So that was basically his message. And then he also said, like, using the Drew Brees example, he said, just be careful. Just, like, when you're voicing your opinion, just read it a lot of times if you're going

to write it. Or think about it a lot before you say it. That was sort of his advice, which I thought was pretty good. But I do think like he also said kind of what you just said, like, he said, I asked him, you know, have you ever, he's been in the NFL for like, six years, I think, at least. And I asked him, because he kneeled in 2017, after Trump said what he said. And so I asked him, like, have you ever had these types of conversations that you're having right now with teammates and with your, in his case, the Packers had, like, position group meetings where they spent, like, a couple hours just talking about their personal experience with what was going on.

And I asked him, have you ever had these conversations before, like, at this level or is this new? Has this really never happened before? And he was like, yeah, no, this is definitely unique. Like we've had conversations here or there in my career, but not on this level with like so many, with all of our team and all of our coaches involved. So I think that's really awesome. And hopefully, you know, like what you said with the Vikings, like they're going to announce what their plan is with their social justice initiatives. So I think each team is figuring that out right now.

And so, you know, multiply that by 32, and hopefully that, you know, is going to make a difference in fighting systemic racism and just like increasing awareness for coaches and players. Before we get back to the conversation, I want to remind you that there is no shortage of action going on right now at our exclusive partners at betonline.ag. Sports are slowly making their way back, and BetOnline is leading the way with the best odds and lines for all UFC, NASCAR,

boxing, and soccer matches. And if you need more, they have simulated NFL, NBA, and UFC simulations all day, every day, live on their website. Looking for something else other than sports? BetOnline has hundreds of casino games, poker tournaments, and prop bets to check out. Visit BetOnline.ag. Use the promo code BLUEW wire for a free welcome bonus that's one word blue wire bet online your online wagering experts well what's really interesting is that a lot of people have you know posted on twitter whatever like wait you know someone like drew

breeze has been around black players for a really long time. He's probably got 70% of his teammates are black. But a lot of times in the NFL, there's this feeling of independent contractors with football, maybe more than a baseball clubhouse where they're together so much all the time. And even then, when I was covering minor league baseball, sometimes it would be the Hispanic players on one side of the room and the white players on one side of the room and the white players on another side of the room. And as a football player, your contract is always up unless you're Drew Brees. And a lot of times guys are sort of horse blinders on what their job is

and what they're doing. And to some extent I can understand why Drew Brees would not have gone to Demario Davis or to Cameron Jordan and said, hey, explain this to me, because he's got his life and they've got theirs. And a lot of times guys leave the facility and they all go separate ways. And so now I think that there has been this shift to asking players to understand each other's perspectives much better and to have meetings where they're discussing social justice and racism and things

like that is totally something I've never ever heard of before in the NFL and that's not to say that white players never thought about it before never talked about it with their black teammates before but to have full teams discussing uh how should we you know can we get your perspective how should we present ourselves on social media better to send out a better message to our community? Those are things that have not happened before and something very positive that comes from this. And even from the reaction to Drew Brees from all of his teammates, the positive part that comes out of it is that Drew Brees now understands his teammates better than he ever has before in his life. And I think from a leadership perspective, the better you can empathize and the better you can understand people around you, the better you can lead. It's a huge learning moment. And I think what we were talking about earlier with the whole scouting process, you know, and in Dalvin's case in particular, like I just reminded me of my my former colleague.

He's now at The Washington Post and, you know, I'm no longer at Sports Illustrated,, but Robert Klumko, he tweeted a couple things the other day that I thought were really interesting. This was in response to, I think, Chris Ballard, the Colts GM. He had a quote that said he was admitting basically that he had been ignorant to the problem of racial inequality, which is something that pretty much every white person can say. So he admitted that, and that was his quote. And Klunko had a really interesting tweet just talking about that. He was like, this is good for Chris, but I'm always stunned to learn that general managers and scouts are behind on this stuff. If you spend decades diving into the family backgrounds of 200-plus prospects per year,

how on earth do you avoid having a firm understanding of the depths of American racial inequality? And I thought that was a really interesting question because it's true. I mean, the majority of players in the NFL are black. So the majority of your prospects are black. And you spend so much time, you know, digging into, you know, are they coming from a poor area? Are they coming from a poor area are they coming from a rich neighborhood like what is the family dynamic you're looking at every aspect of their life the social aspects the economic aspects like um geographic like all these demographics are involved so i thought that was a really interesting point of like the people who should be most aware

of uh you know racial inequality is the people who are studying these young men who are about to enter the league and seeing the patterns that they're tracking and seeing all of that stuff. So I thought that was a really interesting question. And I think going forward, I think a lot of evaluators are going to be thinking about that and maybe hopefully rethinking some of the more racially coded ways that they talk about prospects, like, whether it's, okay, you know, looking at their economic situation as, like, a translator to how motivated they're going to be, you know, because if a prospect doesn't have as much money, like, the thinking is, oh, they're going to be really motivated to work hard in the NFL so they can, like, get their next contract and, you know, help their family out. So, I don't know.

And all of those terms and thinking can often be sort of, like, racially coded words. So I think that, I think the GMs admitting, like, they've been ignorant to this is, like, really good. And, like, hopefully, I don't know specifically how it will change things that I think of the GMs admitting like they've been ignorant to this is like really good and like hopefully I don't know specifically how it will change things in terms of how they evaluate but at least it'll be more present in their mind well the example that comes right to mind for me is just Lamar Jackson I mean how that guy ends up the MVP of the league dropping the 32nd Josh

Allen gets picked before him and you say I'm pretty sure judging by some of the things that Bill Pullian got roasted the most for it but a lot of people said well maybe he should be a wide receiver he's more of an athlete than he is a quarterback and I watched a lot of his Louisville tape coming out um I know I don't mean to sound like tape football guy but I was really intrigued by him as a prospect and you could see you could see he was a great thrower on certain throws and then other throws he couldn't make, which is just like almost every other quarterback in the NFL. And I don't understand why you would ever interpret being a great athlete

at any position in football a bad thing. And he's shown from what he's actually done on the field that being a great athlete at quarterback is a complete game changer for the Baltimore Ravens. But even they drafted a tight end before him. They drafted Hayden Hurst in the first round and not Lamar Jackson. So they get credit for being the geniuses,

but even they saw some of those things that maybe weren't there, but have been attributed to black quarterbacks for a really long time. And I don't think it's any coincidence that there's always something that they find to amplify now uh Russell Wilson well he's too short he ends up in the third round he might be the best quarterback in the whole league outside of Patrick Mahomes Patrick Mahomes Mitch Trubisky goes ahead of him and Deshaun Watson what more could Deshaun Watson have done in college to be the number one quarterback that got drafted I understood the Mahomes thing because the system he came from and he didn't have the, you know, footwork that you would expect.

But Deshaun Watson, I mean, all he did was beat Alabama in the national championship game and put up all-time great stats. And that doesn't get you drafted over Mitch Trubisky. So if they're going to look in the mirror, that's the obvious part. The other one is, you know, we call guys freak athletes all the time and things like that. And maybe don't consider enough the intelligence part.

I think the Minnesota Vikings, because Mike Zimmer is obsessed with intelligence for his players, have gotten ahead because they've put so much of a focus on scouting and looking closely at finding the most intelligent guys. And I think that those are sometimes the things that personnel departments miss on. Mm-hmm. Totally. Yeah. I think you're right on with all of that. And it's hopefully, you know, I mean, Vic Fangio saying, I think he said last week that, you know, he didn't see a racism problem in the NFL. And he was quick to amend and sort of apologize and fix his

statement, which is good. But I'm just hoping like no one ever can say that again because it's just not true. I mean, just the whole Rudy Rule situation and just the lack of representation of minorities and head coaching and general manager jobs speaks for itself. So I think the NFL has a lot of work to do, but the things we've seen in the last week have been encouraging, starting with Goodell's video on Friday, like finally apologizing and admitting like, okay, we do support your protest, like we are listening. They still didn't apologize to Kaepernick directly, which is a whole other thing, which they're probably never going to do, which he should have done in that video. But that was a good step.

So I think there will hopefully be changes coming. Yeah, I guess their apology came in a collusion lawsuit in which they had to pay him. So maybe that might be the reason they're not bringing him up. Kaylin, this has been an outstanding conversation. You do terrific work, and people should also go read your Bleach Report. You've got it in your Twitter profile, your Bleach Report article on Peyton Manning. Super good and super interesting to see where he continues to go with his post-NFL life because Peyton's places is pretty awesome,

and he's doing a lot of other things, too, that you detailed there. So, great stuff, and make sure you follow her at Kaylin Kaler. It's K-A-L-Y-N, just like Jalen Holmes. And really appreciate your time. I hope we can do this again. Thanks so much. It was fun.