Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - How does J.J. McCarthy shape Vikings offseason plan?

Episode Date: February 16, 2025

Matthew Coller and Dane Mizutani got together to discuss how J.J. McCarthy impacts how the Vikings will approach this offseason. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here along with Dane Mizzutani of the Pioneer Press. Your postgame duo is back for some offseason talk and every year, Dane, I do a big series called Future of the Vikings over at purpleinsider.football. Make sure you go check it out. Sign up for the newsletter there. Friday mailbags, all of my written reporting from TCO Performance Center, and of course, off-season coverage. And I do every position, breakdown, defensive line, offensive line. The offensive line one was very popular this year.

But the last one is always called the timeline. And over recent years, the timeline has been a very popular article because Kweisi Adafo-Mensa, Kevin O'Connell come in with the competitive rebuild. And I think, Dane, that they executed a competitive rebuild probably better than we've seen any team do that and quicker than you would have expected to have 14 wins and put yourself in a position like they did this year without even having their real answer at quarterback. But now they face a very new timeline, which has been complicated by a

quarterback position of which we do not have answers yet. So let me start here with you. I want you to tell me the difference in the front office approach, in the ownership's understanding of where they are, and competing for a Super Bowl with Sam Darnold back or J.J. McCarthy starting in 2025. What would be your viewpoint as far as how different the timeline would be viewed in the front office, the ownership, the fan base in those two situations? And if the answer is not at all, then the answer is not at all. What do you think? I don't think the answer

is not at all. I think externally the answer might be not at all. But I think internally, like if you go into next season, say what is today, February 6, say a month from today, they have tagged Sam Darnold and traded him to insert team that needs quarterback here. And you're rolling forward with JJ McCarthyJ. McCarthy I think the external expectation is going to be like oh my god it's time we can do it we're going to win the Super Bowl I think internally if they are willing to move forward with just J.J. McCarthy or a veteran that competes with him but then loses to him in the training camp competition. So J.J. McCarthy is your week one starter. I think the timeline doesn't start over, but I don't think you pick it up right at 14-3,

blowout loss to the Rams, away we go. I think you have to handicap it with the fact that this guy has not played a lot of football in general, but one NFL snap. He's played a one preseason game. He's had, you know, training camp, OTAs, like that's it. His knowledge of the NFL exists through the eyes of a GoPro on Sam Darnold's helmet. So I think head coach, GM, ownership, I think they would be able to see that. We are not a Super Bowl contender next year.

They're not going to come out and say that, but I think you judge success by are you taking steps forward towards being a perennial Super Bowl contender? And I think if you're rolling forward with JJ McCarthy, you are almost saying we are starting the process of hopefully becoming a Super Bowl contender down the road while not putting too much pressure on the number 10 pick in the 2023 draft that we love, 2024 draft that we love. On the other side of that, you bring back sam darnold you franchise tag him for a year obviously that's inherently if you franchise tag him it's a one-year 40 million dollar contract whatever and you say jj didn't really get that red shirt year he got a kind of

a pseudo red shirt year but he wasn't on the field And we want to give him a real one. And Sam is our starter. If you move forward next year of saying Sam Darnold is the starter fair or not. Like, I think you're trying to win the Superbowl that, that, that year because you won 14 games. You did that with a ton of dead cap. You're going to get better in free agency. You don't have a lot of draft capital but you do have the 24th pick and whether you're able to hopefully draft the guy that's going to

make an impact this year or trade down and make you know draft more guys that that can hopefully make an impact in the long term all of that working together with a quarterback who just won 14 games, given the circumstances and certain deficiencies on the roster because of the dead cap I talked about. Like, I think if you're rolling forward, Sam Darnold, fair or not, you should be trying to win the Superbowl and then hand the keys off later if it doesn't work out. Or maybe if you do, obviously then you move forward and you have a new discussion on your hands.

But I think the timeline looks different based on who is your quarterback. That's just my take on it because I think as much as we, as people that cover the team and fans, as people that follow the team and fans as people that follow the team are often enamored with with the next who's next to do the next big thing you know there's a shiny new toy I don't think it's fair to kind of place those expectations on on a guy who's never done it and I don't think the the franchise as a whole with how well it's been run. I don't think they would do that either. So I was thinking about if Kweisi Daffo Mensah pitched, well,

he must have to the ownership when he got the job, this competitive rebuild, because he has said before that tanking is off the table for him. And when he says that as an analytics person, I know who he means that tanking is off the table for, because it ain't off the table says that as an analytics person, I know who he means that tanking is off the table for, because it ain't off the table for him as an analytics guy, but it's off the table for the ownership of this team, which we have known for a long time. And their gamble on not tanking has paid off by having a lot of wins and a lot of, uh, capital built up in trust for Kevin

O'Connell. And you find out if someone could coach when you have a good roster where I don't know if we'll ever know if certain guys around the league who've gotten fired could actually coach because they didn't have quarterbacks. They didn't have rosters. They came, they went, who knows, right? So we found out by doing the competitive rebuild that a, it was possible. And also that Kevin O'Connell is someone you want to go forward with long-term as your coach. And there is a ton of value in that

versus forcing that man to slog through teams that are going to win three, four games. I mean, look at Gerard Mayo. Everybody thinks, well, we'll be patient with the guy. Then they get in the middle of the season and they watch those losses and They go, you're fired. So it's probably better that the Vikings landed themselves, uh, that coach. Although I certainly was watching Jaden Daniels thinking, how do I, do you have to draft to get one of those? Oh yeah. Number two. Uh, anyway, not the point. The point being that, uh, they were faster to this than they thought they were going to be. This year, if you were doing your calculations in your pitch, you would have said, let's compete in 2022, tear some major things down in 23 and have a rebuild year in 24, where we try to slip into the playoffs. If a lot of

things go right. And then instead they win 14 games. So now instead of this sort of progressive, I don't know if you ever watch a price is right. If you were home from a school sick or something and the yodeler, you know, and he climbs up, that's how you think of it in your brain and in your pitch, but it's not what happened. The yodeler just went right up to the top, but now he's up there and you go, all right, now what do you do now that he's up there? Because if they bring Sam Darnold back and then they add all the free agents that they want to add, it's certainly possible they can do it, but they have to make concessions into

the future for the salary cap in order to do it. So if they do, then the expectation is raised to, I think playing for the super bowl and talking about it as one thing. And then also like to make it, to justify it, where do you have to be? It's probably reaching the NFC championship to justify it because of those concessions that you have to make toward the future. And the only addendum I would throw on that is unless they really think JJ McCarthy physically could not play 17 games yet and needs another year to rebuild his body to be ready to do that. If they told me that and they said, well, we want to bring back Darnold because we know we can win with them, then it's a hard point to defeat. But I don't think it changes the fact that if Darnold's your quarterback,

you have to do everything in your power, which could mean trades that are risky. It could mean signings that are risky. It could mean restructures, whatever you got to do, because that's where the bar is. Now I'm less afraid of that than other people, because I think you just won 14 games. Your team's right in the mix with everybody else and your coaching staff's as good as it gets. Go do it if that's what they decide to do. But if McCarthy is the quarterback, there needs to be a grace period for him because even Jordan Love, who had three years of development, came out in his first eight games and was

a major roller coaster. So I have a very specific expectation. If JJ McCarthy is the quarterback for next year, which is that the first half of the season has a lot of moments where we're going, what, what is he? Can he play? But as you arrive, and this is what kind of happened with Bo Nix, as you arrive to the end of the year and going into the playoffs, the Stephen A. Smiths and the Orlovskis on TV are yelling, I wouldn't want to play those Vikings because they are hot and their quarterbacks emerging. And that's really what happened with Jordan Love in Green Bay.

And if that's the case, if that's the kind of a best case scenario for you, I still think the front office should approach the offseason maybe with ever so slightly less risk, but as if they are in a Super Bowl win, right the bleep now type of offseason. So it doesn't change it as much for me, except for how you have to get there and what that might do to you in the future with restructures or not restructures. Guys, if you watch the show all the time, you know that I'm a hat guy, but if you're wearing hats to cover up for your hair loss,

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Yeah. And I guess that's probably a good like part to kind of drill down on is like i don't think decision making towards like competing for a super bowl should necessarily change based on who the quarterback is like i still think like the team is good justin jefferson is in his prime like you don't want to just say, well, like rookie quarterback, you know, we're not going to be that good for like one, you'll piss them off too. Like that's just wasting years of a guy who could go down as one of the greatest to ever do it. I just think like expectations wise, like you can't put that much pressure on a guy that says like,

if we don't win 14 games again or if we don't you know do xyz then that this this season was not deemed a successful season in our eyes and i especially wouldn't do that with a guy like jj mccarthy who was incredibly hard on himself and it was not lost a lot in his in his career but i think the point being yeah like use the cap space try to contend because that is kind of like in the nfl you either win and this is like a blanket statement that doesn't necessarily apply but it kind of does apply to every team build out there you either win by having one of the best quarterbacks in the league, or you win by having a really good roster with a quarterback that allows you to have a really good roster. If you go with the J.J. McCarthy route, you're

obviously setting yourself up for more years, and as Quasey puts it, hopefully more kicks at the can. And kicks at the can each year for the next however long until you have to decide whether to pay jay jen mccarthy but the kicks at the can argument still does like to your point apply for sam darno you just have to probably you have to pay that credit card off sooner because you will be making more aggressive when now moves but i don't think if expectations internally or like what you're telling deja mccarthy should impact the way you're trying to build the team because i do think they have a good roster i just think to your point about the yodeler it's a big ask for a guy

who didn't get you to the top of the mountain to then put him at the top of the mountain and say, go reach the summit. We need you. So that's a tough one. But I do think regardless of who the quarterback is like, yes, like you should be trying to build the best roster possible this year and into the future because you have a really good team. Let me ask you a kind of a kind of an off off the trail question here a little bit just based on what we were talking about it popped into my head if you could if you could trade a 14 win season for a nine win season knowing the final result that with the 14 win season

they didn't make the playoffs would you do it because here's here would be my case for last year now i'm not taking away from any of the players the performances the fun games the sam darnold arc and all that sort of stuff it was all great thanks for the memories they were wonderful but like for this conversation about the timeline if they won nine games everyone would have said great job kevin o'con. You outperformed expectations. Even if you missed the playoffs in the last day, they would have said Vikings coming now, kind of like the lions did after they had won nine games and not made the playoffs in 2022. They would have said Vikings are up next. They've got the cap space. They've got the young

quarterback. There's no discussion about who's going to be the quarterback in the future. It's just JJ McCarthy. And the bar to beat is nine games in a very tough division. The 14 thing rests in a funny place because they did get whooped in the playoffs. So I would say the entire fan base just threw out the 14 wins like they meant nothing. And they got beat so badly. I understand that, but it's still when you go back and look at the standings and the coach's record and a contract based on winning 14 games and now expectations based on winning 14 games last year it does add a different layer to the expectations for mccarthy because try going in the locker room and telling all the veteran players yeah you're 14 games like who cares though know, like that, of course they don't

look at it that way. Their expectation now is that they compete for the Superbowl this season, which does add if it's McCarthy, a lot more pressure to his shoulders. Now it's not. And I know the comment section, I can already see it. He played at Michigan in a national championship and he understands pressure. I know, I know, I know all that. There's nothing like this. There's absolutely nothing like this in college that can emulate it, which is kind of the next part of it.

When we think about variance, I think of it as in bands. Like how wide is your band of variance? So we got zero wins over here and we got 17 wins over here. And where can I place the band? If Darnold starts, the band is pretty short. I don't think it's going back to 14, but I also don't think you'd win any less than nine or 10 with JJ McCarthy, the band, because it just becomes wider on one side. I don't think you're winning 14 games, but it becomes wider on the downside. And I think they have to consider that as they are, as they are deciding, like, what are our expectations realistically for this football team is that the lower end of this, because the guy has never played is actually there.

I know that no Vikings fans sees it there because they think this is now a better quarterback than Sam Darnold was last year, even though it's one of the five best seasons ever by a Vikings quarterback statistically, but that's, that's just that. I think they have to look at it that way. Yeah. And that, that, that the first thing that pops into my head is the messaging from Kevin O'Connell to his team, which he referenced ad nauseum towards the end of the year saying, I told these guys back in training camp, I told them after watching them in OTAs, I told them in training camp that I thought they could be a really good football team.

And I don't think that messaging changes if J.J. McCarthy is your quarterback because it can't. You can't just go in there and be like, I think we're going to be mid. I don't think we messaging changes if JJ McCarthy is your quarterback because it can't, you can't just go in there and be like, I think we're going to be like mid. Like I don't think we're going to be that good because we have to account for like, you can't say that, but I would be curious to like dive into his psyche and maybe like just to be an NFL coach, you just have to believe so like steadfastly in in in yourself

and the culture you can build and your offense and the team you surrounded yourself with and your players maybe to get to that level you have to have like a level of ego that just does not exist to me where like you can't separate the forest from the trees. And that's probably, there's probably something to that. But I think absolutely like expectations have to change, not just because that's the facts. Like there's just a big unknown with a rookie quarterback, but because like if you don't change them, like if you put so much pressure on it from the beginning and say 14 wins, we're running it back.

We're like, that puts just an immense amount of pressure on the guy that you are handing the keys to in this thought exercise, the keys to the franchise to for the next decade. And if his first year starting is off a 14 win season, regardless of how you performed in the playoffs. And you say like, that is the standard. They talked a lot about the standard this year. It's just a hard thing to live up to. And I don't know if I would trade the 14 wins. Certainly, if I was Kevin O'Connell, I would not, because that made me a ton of money.

But I get the question. I understand it. And I felt this way back in 2022 when when they won 13 games they weren't supposed to like the competitive rebuild from the beginning like you weren't supposed to be as good as you were as fast as you were and while the 13 wins gave them some goodwill like the one and four star that following year in 2023 to piss a lot of people off because people were operating under the guise of, well, we just won 13 games and now we have Kirk cousins back and like, and granted, they ended up flipping

it around and looked like they probably could have done something maybe pretty special. Um, had Kirk not popped his Achilles and then you kind of get absolved from anything that happens in 2023 because of that injury but it's similar this year in 2024 heading into 2025 like if you win nine games last year you're right like no matter what you do like the carrot is out in front of you and you say like if we get to 10 or 11 like we show growth like the only way i think you show growth now in 2025 is you make the playoffs and you win a first round playoff game because you're not going to win 14 games it's happened once one other time in the history of the franchise you want 15 games in 98 like so how you judge success, I think, has to change. But I think you have to also be realistic with yourself. And I don't know how you do this as a head coach while trying to galvanize say, we're going to win the Super Bowl this year. I think we're going to be a good team is probably the best way to phrase it, because that can mean

a lot of different things. Like if the Vikings won nine games this year and Kevin O'Connell kept, I bet he would keep referencing the fact that like in training camp, I said, we could be a good team and you know, we're really fighting. Like, so I think that's probably the blanket statement that you say is, I think we're going to be a good team but the expectations as a whole regardless of how you build it regardless of who's on the team next year like if you're moving forward with J.J. McCarthy starting week one they just have to be tempered they just do and I know fans aren't going to want to hear that and I know certainly you're not going to say the quiet part out loud when you talk to us. But behind the scenes, they just do.

They have to. So there's a few different things that have come into my mind here when we're talking about the timeline and when you expect to win with J.J. McCarthy. And one of those things is that we have seen recently young quarterbacks win. Yeah. Now that doesn't mean the Superbowl because we're going to have two veterans in the Superbowl and, uh, Jaden Daniels did really well in the NFC championship. His team wasn't there yet, but, uh, CJ Stroud, you know, lost in his, uh, second playoff game after winning one his first year, but Brock Purdy made the Superbowl in his second season. We saw Jalen hurts may have been third season where he reached the super bowl. Uh, CJ Stroud has succeeded. Bo Nix was in the playoffs with a team. That's

pretty shoddy. I mean, it's got some guys, but I don't think any of us thought, Oh wow. The Denver Broncos are the best team in the NFL around Bo Nix. They don't have any receivers. They don't have a good running game. And so they're going to build on that in the future. And yet he was there in the playoffs against Buffalo, uh, way overmatched, but still in his first year, even Michael Penix came out and looked pretty good. We may be in a world where even a young quarterback is more prepared for this. Now, Brock Purdy was also 23 or 24 and played a lot of football. So did Bo Nix. CJ Stroud was pretty young, but it may be also kind of a freak show and was a top two draft pick. So it is a little bit different from somebody who just threw so few passes. Stroud might've had the same in one year as

McCarthy had his entire college career, but I've also got the two different things on each side of the shoulder for that, because I think about what we saw most recently was JJ McCarthy looked great in training camp. That means so much more to me than the fact that he doesn't have a lot of experience because camp tells us a lot of the answers when we could see them practice every single day. And so I think that what McCarthy showed is that he can be ready as long as he's physically there to go out and lead a football team and start making plays. Even if there's going to be Rocky moments along the way,

another factor is it's a veteran team. And here's where it may be a little bit different is they need draft capital like i need diet soda okay i got the diet coke because it was on sale but i wish it was diet dr pepper please sponsor the show uh but they they don't have draft picks they don't have young players. They have foundational veteran pillars who are competing right now. And does that mean that Kweisi Adafo-Mensa, if JJ McCarthy is going to be the guy, needs to focus on finding draft capital and getting cheaper and younger in whatever way he can?

Or does it mean like, hey, the kid's on the rookie contract. Spend, spend contract spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, they go, let's just, you know, all in for this year to put as much around him as you possibly can to up his chances of getting back to where that yodel there was at the top of the mountain. I wonder how you think that it may be. It doesn't completely shift it, but when we look at the landscape of the roster, it has to have some effect on the thought process that they need to draft football players. Yeah. So like, I guess where my mind goes with that question is like, I think 24 is a good, good barometer for that.

Like, do you draft at number 24 and try and add another big piece and hopefully hit on a draft pick and that can help him this year or do you trade 24 to random team that wants to move up to 24 for you know probably a mid second and a third i don't know like the the trade charts i know they get talked about a lot but like i think it's important to remember too, it's not Madden. You need someone to want to get up to number 24. But if I was Kweisi Doppamensa to answer your question about do I want to build for the long-term future with J.J. McCarthy in mind, or do I want to infuse as much talent into this roster to give him

kind of a good starting point of his career. I think I would say the latter. Like I just want to infuse talent into this roster. And that's why like I understand trading number 24. Like I really do. But like when we talk about like all the needs that this team has and the money that they're going to be able to spend in free agency to address some of those needs. Late first round, it's still a little more of a crapshoot than early to late first round picks, if you're trading that late first round pick for a mid second, you have a better chance of hitting on a late first round pick. And if you want someone that's going to help J.J. McCarthy and the Vikings as a whole in 2025, I might just stick and pick there at 24 rather than I understand the draft capital part of it and adding more pieces

and bringing more talent in to then groom and build and hopefully come to fruition later. But I think this is just kind of the bed you made for 2025, and now you just got to sleep in it. If there's nobody there on their board, I bet they trade down or they try to. But if there's a talented player at 24 and I'm trying to use kind of the cheat code that is still the rookie contract in the NFL as a way to kind of compete moving forward, assuming J.J. McCarthy is my starter, I think I might just sit there and pick and i think that kind of thought process to stay at 24 and draft is kind of a broader microcosm of like how i feel a microcosm of how i feel on like a broader spectrum of like i think they need to do everything they can to to put this kid in a position to succeed now to succeed immediately and i think that there is a world in which he could you reference training camp last year as a good measuring stick like

I would have paused as him being my week one starter because he hasn't played but he did look good in training camp and I think more than looking good in training camp I think back to rookie mini camp he didn't look good at all and camp I think back to rookie minicamp he didn't look good at all and then I think back to OTAs he looked a heck of a lot better than he did in rookie minicamp and then I think back to training camp and like he looked a hell of a lot better than he did in OTAs and then he gets into the preseason game and like there was this momentum building and who says that can't build again this year so while i have pause as a guy who's not making any of these decisions and just kind of opining about them like there is a world where like this snowball

was going to get so big last year that like it was still going to be sam darnold week one but maybe like it was going to be a question um So if you're using that and everything you believe in your heart about JJ McCarthy and also adding in the fact that he got to learn, granted from the periphery, but he still got to learn, then I think you owe it to him and to yourselves too to build the roster right now for him to win and think about the future in the future. Have I ever told you my theory about timeouts about how to use timeouts at the end of a game it's really

it's really complicated and analytical just use them like use them and use them as fast as you can because you'll never get the time back and i think of it with this sort of thing too, that there's some sort of cliche that people put on little, uh, you know, things in their kitchen or whatever. That's like life happens while you're planning or something. It's like, that's how it goes in the NFL is if you, a couple of years out, uh, you might be planning for somebody else who becomes the general manager at that point. And regardless of contracts, and I know with Kevin O'Connell's, this extension is significant. It's long.

It's going to be a while that he's here. And he's a type of coach to me that's always going to elevate what you have. So I would want him to be the coach for the long time. But it's not a guarantee that the general manager has the same sort of leeway, regardless of what type of extension he signs or if he signs one. But if assuming that he does, then I don't think the GM has the same sort of leeway as a coach who's proven that he can win 34 games, despite Kirk Cousins, Josh Dobbs, Nick Mullins, Jared Hall, Sam Darnold, who had been 13 games under 500 or

whatever when he got here, like that's a different type of leeway. And it's probably harder to replace than a general manager is how many good coaches are there in the league? 10, 12, uh, on earth that can be head coaches of teams. I mean, come on. Right. So I think that if you're a front office person, you can't let life happen while you're planning. Like you have to go into an off season and say, how can I have people walking away? Say, wow, those guys nailed that JJ McCarthy pick. Well, there's a good way. And that's by putting whatever a hundred million dollars into free agency and pulling in every player you can and making every trade that you can. And I, you know, I still feel the same way that I did about the first round pick. We haven't

discussed this at all, but that I did at the trade deadline, which was if you could trade for a multi-year player with the first round draft pick, then do it because the 24th overall pick, what's its history. It's not number seven. It's not number, I mean, I remember going through this when they traded down in 22. The history on number 12 in that range, 10 to 15, pretty good. That range of 28 to 38, not so great when it comes to historically. 24 is on the cusp of that.

The farther you trade down, the more prospects who could be great, come off the board. And so as they go into these miles, Garrett's out there and Cooper cup, which, uh, you know, they need to pay you something to take Cooper cup. But if you're talking about like other players who will emerge Denzel Ward's name just came up where Denzel Ward went to rate these guys for the Browns are going to radio row being like, ah, I'm out. See,

uh, Denzel Ward's an elite corner. It's 28. It's probably got three years of being elite left. Okay. Would you trade 24? I would, I would do that.

I know everybody's going to want, but that's the rookie quarterback contract advantage. Just like when the 49ers trade for, uh, McCaffrey, everyone's like a first rounder for running back. You out of your skull. It's like, well rounder for running back. Are you out of your skull? It's like, well, their whole roster can win the Superbowl today.

So no, they're not out of their skull for trading a high draft pick for that. And I feel the same way about this year's draft and this year's free agency is, okay, don't be stupid, but be as aggressive as you can be. Yeah, that's, and that's like when I think team building in the NFL, like, I just, I can't quite get past, like, the idea of, like, there's one position that's obviously super important. And if that position doesn't come to fruition, like, it really doesn't matter how the rest of the team plays out.

But you're operating for the Vikings thatings that you have that guy that you do you took him number 10 you've you circled him on your board two years ago and you have him now so while i understand like the like the draft draft nerds i don't know like what do you want to call them i prefer draft weebs okay well the people who sit at home and say like like they got a trade 20 they got a trade back from 24 like i i agree like i generally agree that like if they could find a trade that gave them more kicks at the can like that's that makes sense i understand like the thought process there but i just i keep going back to like if i have the guy that i think i have if they didn't have the quarterback then i'd say yeah trade trade trade 24 for but they do they have the quarterback now they finally have a guy that they think can lead them to the promised land i don't i don't

care like i don't care about having the the 65th pick and the 123rd pick because we don't have any third round picks besides the comp pick like i don't care i don't i think that like there's an overcorrection or a possibility or like a like a temptation to overcorrect when you don't have a lot of draft capital so you got to trade down like no you don't like if the guy you're you're staring at at 24 is there take him or if you can get denzel ward for 24 do it i just know i on draft night the draft i'll use your word dweebs um if the vikings take anybody at 24 there is going to be a large subsection of twitter and larger than twitter social media at large saying what are they doing they don't have any draft capital like how could you take someone at 24 and my rebuttal to that would be because they need

good players and we'll figure out the rest later and And I get it. If they could have a war chest of draft picks, they would, but they traded those away and that sucks. And I'm sure like they, if they could take some picks back that they traded for Dallas Turner, knowing the production, they were going to get out of him this year. They would,

but they're gone. Those picks are gone. It's like being pot stuck in a poker game, that money in the middle of the table gone. So if you're chasing it by like looking at your hand and saying, well, I gotta, I gotta try and bluff my way out of like the money's gone. Those picks are gone. If, if the player you want's at 24, take him. If you can get a good player that can help JJ McCarthy next year for 24, do it because

like the money's gone. picks are gone you're gonna get your draft picks back later like just because a new year in 2026 2027 2028 like the picks replenish like you're gonna have them back he didn't trade all of the picks he just traded a lot of them from this this draft the capital is going to come back. But like to your point about the cutesy saying in the kitchen, like life goes by when you are worried about planning or however you phrased it. I don't know. You did a good job. Like if you're worried about getting the 68th pick and the 125th pick for the 24th,

like whatever the numbers would be, like you're probably passing on not just one player at 24 but all the players in between that could help jj mccarthy next year if he's the guy that running running the offense so i just think that there is there's a lot of opinions out there now and there's they're they're they're amplified because everyone can have an opinion now. But because they have a limited amount of draft capital, there is a risk or a want to overcorrect and get it all back. It's gone. So if you're at 24, just draft.

If 24 can get you a player, just trade it. I think you should be trying to compete next year with the assets you have right now at your disposal and figure out the rest later. Don't talk to me until I've had my diet, Dr. Pepper. That's what I have in my kitchen. Isn't that people with coffee? Haven't had my coffee yet. Don't talk to me. I think you laid that out very well that if you got to be,

it's sort of like going forward on fourth down where in a lot of ways washington was great at this because they were the underdog and they knew there's really one chance we beat detroit and we got to convert these fourth downs and then they did and they won and then in philly you know they didn't and they didn't stop anything either but i would still defend every single one of them by saying, this is how you're going to have to win. You can't win by just sitting around and hoping. There's no 93 Dallas Cowboys in the NFL.

You've got to take your swings, and sometimes they're going to work, and sometimes they're not. Now, as far as the timeline goes, as of this recording, we don't have a Kweisi Adafl-Mensa extension. I don't want to go down the road until I have to of wondering about that because contract negotiations, he's under contract right now.

There's not some, oh my gosh, if they don't do it next week, he's gone or something. But we'll keep an eye on that. I was thinking more along the lines, though, with Kevin O'Connell's contract as a place to finish this because my brain went when O'Connell signed his extension, my brain went right to what's the next phase look like of Kevin O'Connell. Like, what does it have?

What does it have to be in terms of success? Was it, what does it have to be in terms of him growing as a coach? I think it's easy to forget Andy Reid is in his sixties and Kevin O'Connell is in his thirties. So there's a lot of knowledge there that's been gleaned, so to speak, over the years by Andy Reid. And when he was in the playoffs for his first couple of times and he screwed up things and he got out schemed or messed up a clock or something.

That was his whole reputation when he arrived in, in, uh, Kansas city. So, well, Andy recant went big games cause he doesn't know whatever. And then now he's like the, the goat. So there's plenty of time for Kevin O'Connell to correct on some of that stuff. But well, I'll let you answer this before I give a mind. Like, what is the, what's the next phase of Kevin O'Connell have to be to make that contract extension a success? It's simple to me. You gotta, you gotta win playoff games and not just playoff game.

You gotta win playoff games. You're you're 34 and 17 since taking over in 2022 in the regular season. I think it's the fastest coach in franchise history to 30 wins, passing Bud Grant and Denny Green. But you're 0-2 in the playoffs. And you're 0-4 in the playoffs, and you've only had two kicks at the cam because you're 0-4 in the playoffs. You don't have a gluttony of playoff experience so that's the next step to me is like without overreacting too much like from my perspective like prove to me you're not a regular season coach and that might sound harsh and i don't

think he's a regular season coach i i want that like be very clear. He's 0-2 in the playoffs, and it hasn't worked out well. That does not mean I think he's a guy. I think about this in the NBA. There's regular season players, and then there's playoff players. I think Draymond Green described him as 82-game players and 16-game players. No, I don't think Kevin O'Connell is just an 82 game player. Like, I don't think he just can front run in the regular season and he can't get

it on the playoffs. At least long-term it right now. That's what his record says he is. So that's what he is until he proves otherwise. So that's the next step for me. When playoff games, it doesn't mean you have to win the Super Bowl by 2026, 2027. No, only one team gets to do it. And that's a cliche that reverberates

around the NFL. Any team loses and they're sad on locker room clean out is only one team gets to do it. But it's true. Only one team gets to win the Super Bowl. And you know what? Maybe no teams other than the Kansas City Chiefs get to win the Super Bowl because Patrick Mahomes is – we're recording this on Thursday, February 6th. I don't know when it's going to drop, but he'll probably have another Super Bowl by then. So if we're just judging head coach success by whether they beat Patrick Mahomes, then we're going to be sad and sorry and frustrated all the time. But for me, it's simple with Kevin O'connell the extension is what it is the money is what it is to prove your worth

you need to now ascend and move forward and start winning playoff games and prove that you are a coach that can get this franchise over the hump that it's never been over. That could be incremental. That doesn't all have to happen at once. Maybe it will happen all at once. Maybe your first playoff win as a head coach in the NFL will then coincide with three more and you'll win the Super Bowl. But if it doesn't, that's okay too. I just need to see steps forward in the playoffs when it matters. I know that this team is going to be competitive in the regular season. We've talked about the schedule and how daunting the opponents look next year.

It's hard to find wins, but I just believe that Kevin O'Connell is going to find wins in these games. When you get to the playoffs and the pressure ramps up and you have to change and you have to shape shift and you have to be malleable, like that's the next step for him. And that's, I think what will deem this contract extension, either a success or a failure is how many playoff wins come out of this. But for now, in the short term, I just need to see one. I need to see one and then see where we go from there. The simplest answer is the right one. Yeah, it's, it really is that.

And I think another part of it is too, if they had lost the first playoff game to, uh, who won, who went to the Superbowl with Philly went to the Superbowl in 2022. Okay. Well, okay, fine. They lost to a giants team. That was was not good they didn't have a good point differential they didn't have a good quarterback they didn't have great weapons there was someone named Richie James who kept catching passes for them there even their defense was not spectacular and the following week the Giants went to Philly and just got destroyed. And you went like, that's the team that you lost to at home.

It's just so bad. And hey, look, we've all given Kirk a tough time about fourth and eight, and he deserves it. But that play call, not so great. So there was coaching things that happened there. Not firing Ed Donatell. You're going to like what you see. No, I didn't, Ed. There's just a lot of things there that were coaching mistakes. And then you go into this game and you get

completely outcoached by Sean McVay. It was not remotely close in that game. And I think the throw down the middle to start the game was sort of a, you're not going to play with me today, sort of from Sean McVay and the defensive line dominated. They didn't have answers. Like it was bad. It was in both losses are so bad. They're not last second field goals. They're not, I mean, did anyone blame Mike Zimmer for the loss in 15 when Blair wall shanks? No, of course not. He coached well enough to win that game. That team was great. The guy missed a field goal and it was a young quarterback, but these, these losses, they're not young quarterbacks. They're not young teams. Even they were both veteran teams. You're

expected to show up in at least a, we'll beat the giants at least go to Arizona and play well in a, in a close game. If they had even lost the same way they lost to the Rams last time, we would have gone darn. That was a good team and everything else to get killed in the, no, that's just completely unacceptable. So that is the next step is to pick it apart and understand some of the shortcomings. And I also, over these next two years, I want to see if changes in personnel result in changes in things that we complain about constantly. So the run game, obvious place to go the short pass game, which I think is effective, but not utilized as much as it should be.

Maybe that changes with JJ McCarthy and so forth. But I think there are some things there. I want to see more aggression this year. They were leading a lot. Okay. I can, you didn't go for fourth down because you're winning all the time. Fair enough. But if they rank 27th and fourth down attempts, when they're a 10 win team, a nine win team, I'm going to wonder, do you have a coach who's playing the modern game next year? And there were times this year where I thought probably missed some opportunities there to be more aggressive. So there are growth points that have to happen in order for it to be a success. And that is with all acknowledgement that this has been an incredible start and he is by far proven worthy of that extension and coach of the year and all of those things and the culture,

he makes it look easy. It is not, it is not, it is not. So, uh, anyway, as we've seen so many people fail in trying to achieve the same things as he had. It's a deep conversation. Mr. Mizutani, Dane Mizutani, Pioneer Press. You you're just as good at an offseason breakdown as a postgame breakdown you make for a great podcast partner, my friend. So we will do this periodically. And you can count on when those OTAs come around, when those mini camps, if we have a quarterback competition or it's JJ McCarthy, you're going to want to ask how's JJ McCarthy look. And you know, who's going to tell you these two folks right here. So, uh, anyway, I'm looking forward to that and the rest of the off season. Thank you very much for your time day.

Say football, just say it. Football, football. I always want to say it. And I, I let you say football, football.