Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - How will NFL broadcasts handle fan-less games?

Episode Date: June 5, 2020

Eric Edholm talked to network executives about how they might get creative with broadcasts this year. Will there be pumped in crowd noise? How about using an app to create fan reaction? What did they learn from the XFL?  At the 25 min mark of the pod, Brandon Thorn joins to talk about what it might take for Ezra Cleveland to start this season and how Garrett Bradbury can take the next step in his progress after going through some tough times this year. Should the Vikings put in a call to Ezra Cleveland?  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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with Drizzly or Instacart, Coors Brewing Company, Golden, Colorado, and as always, celebrate! Hey everybody, welcome into another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar with you. And I want to remind you to go to purpleinsider.com. That's where you can subscribe to all of my written work covering the Minnesota Vikings. And if you could rate and review this podcast, that would be a major, major help. It allows other Vikings fans to find this podcast when they go searching and type in Vikings in whatever podcast app they're using. If you rate and review, this will be the first one that comes up.

So it is greatly appreciated. All right, now we welcome into Purple Insider Eric Edholm from Yahoo Sports. What is going on, Eric? How are you? Other than being the last guy on earth to get his hair cut in places where haircuts are allowed, I'm doing all right. The son and I are going to go for some boy trims pretty soon here, so we'll take care of that. But right now, just, you know, taking in It's been a crazy couple of months here in the world and try to distract people with some good football stuff every now and then.

Yeah, it's the best we can do. My wife did my haircut. She did pretty well. She's going to have to give another go at it, so I'm wearing a hat as we record this. But you mentioned the strange circumstances of the world, and you wrote an in-depth piece talking about what broadcasts might look like if there are very few or no fans in the stands. So I want to talk about some different ideas there.

And then what it also might be like for players if there are no fans in the stands and maybe the home field advantage is different. So you talked to a bunch of network executives and the saddest that I was reading your article is that the Chris Collinsworth slide-in just might not be able to happen. I don't know what we'll do. But I also came away from your piece feeling like there are a lot of potential ideas here that networks could actually take their coverage another step, even when fans do come back. Yeah, I talked to Stephanie Drouille, who oversees a lot of the production there at ESPN, and Fred Godelli from NBC, longtime executive there. Both had really interesting sort of,

granted, of course they're going to try to make it as positive as possible. They're not going to say this is going to be terrible for us. It does force them into a position where they have to think about every aspect of it. How many people are we sending to games? You know, can we have people in a truck if they're not, you know, with social distancing, if that's still going to be a thing come September?

You know, all the little stuff, catering and staffing and everything, but then obviously the on-TV product is most important for them. And it really, I did walk away from those conversations feeling like, you know, the same sort of ideas that we saw in the NFL draft with the changes they made, the innovations they were forced to come up with. If we're in a situation where fans are limited or there are no fans in the stands come September, October, et cetera, these networks, I think, are going to adopt some new ideas, some innovations, the best ways they can to, you know, artificially enhance the product without feeling artificial, if that makes sense.

No, it does. And they also talked about the XFL, and it was fascinating to see all the different things that the XFL tried from bringing you play calls, which I was not actually a huge fan of. I mean, unless you understand some of the verbiage there, like, okay, X right, left, this, great, fantastic. I'm sure they called a run. But at least they tried it and they gave you something that you had never heard before, that communication with coaches, communication on the sideline that was going on between players and coaches. Sometimes it got heated and then players reactions instantly after things happen, which ultimately resulted in having to use the bleep button or a few swears getting through on the TV. But aside from that, they kind

of laid out a little bit of a blueprint of some of the things that broadcasts could borrow with giving us more access to what's going on actually on the field and on the sidelines. Yeah, and I think you're right. You know, Stephanie Drouille from ESPN mentioned about how, you know, she's said it a number of times now, the XFL ended up being a huge benefit for them in terms of preparing for what the NFL might look like. Now, the XFL games, I think the least attended game had somewhere around 10,000 fans, and I think the most attended was somewhere, you know, north of 20,000. But there were some stadiums that clearly looked fairly empty and only had a minimal amount of fans and I think you know they wanted to sort of go back and look at those broadcasts and find out what worked what didn't all the the in-game interviews you mentioned but

also just sort of the sound of the game and when I talked to Fred Godelli from NBC as he mentioned he said, you know, when there's 5,000 fans in a stand or 10,000, it may not sound a lot because we're used to those bigger numbers, but he said you can still get the fan feel, the audio that comes with that, the sound of cheers. It's not as loud. It's not as prominent, but it's there.

But you could also still adopt some of these other ideas. So I hope there are full stadiums. But I also hope we get to see what some of these innovations might be, whether it's camera angles that couldn't have existed before because fans will have their view interrupted because of it, whether it's micing up more players. Deshaun Jackson was talking about that. Micing up referees, etc. Some of the live

things that we're never privy to while the game is happening and usually comes far later when we get those, you know, sound effects type things. And it also seems like the more we go along, the more we learn about coronavirus and things that are outside, it seems that it does not spread the same way it does if they're inside. Correct. So there might be opportunities to bring some of the sound from outside of the stadium if there are fans who are watching on a big board or something like that. I mean, you look at the fan parties that end up happening during the NBA playoffs or the

NHL Stanley Cup playoffs where they've got all these thousands of fans outside. Well, you wouldn't want them that close, But if you treated it like the beach and you were all a certain distance away from each other, they could have a good crowd outside a lot of these stadiums and bring some of that noise in as well. I'm curious what you think of pumping in fake crowd noise because I'm against it. I just think that it's not giving us what's really going on. And that's kind of the goal of broadcasting, that even if it's weird, and you mentioned in your article the game with the Baltimore Orioles

where there were no fans, and boy, was it weird. And having done single-A baseball broadcasting before, I've done some games with no fans in the stands. Doubleheader on a Sunday, that's second game, fifth inning on. There's nobody left, and the players can hear you calling the game. So it's a little bit strange. But if the goal of TV is to try and put you there in the stadium for what it's really like, I mean, it's not fake pumped-in noise for the players,

so why should it be for what we see at home? Yeah, I mean, it's probably going to be weird either way. I was talking to Kyle Long, who just recently retired from the Bears, and he had a great quote, and he said, I'm watching the Korean Baseball League. It's baseball. It's great. I love baseball. Is it a little weird to have it be so naked, you know, empty without that sound? Absolutely. It's a little weird.

So, you know, there's going to be sort of a disorientation one way or the other. And, you know, some of the, like the Bundesliga Soccer League, you know, they experimented a little bit. They tried games with the cardboard cutouts, right? They had the games with no sound, just the ambient, whatever it was playing in the stadium, the sounds of the athletes. And then also with the sort of fake crowd noise. Now, soccer's different because there are chants and songs

and sort of a rhythm and a cadence that goes with it. Every sport is unique to its own thing. One of the fascinating parts, I didn't get too into it because I don't think it's that far along or it's on the front burner, but, you know, kind of playing along the idea you mentioned about the fan gatherings outside the stadium, they're also looking into the idea, app makers are kind of knee-deep in this right now now of having this instant fan reaction app of sorts where you know you and I are watching the game and we're oh touchdown you know yelling into our phone and somehow that is now channeled into the stadium is it going to be instantaneous is it going to

sound weird is there going to have to be a dump button for that. I don't know. But, you know, I think both executives from NBC and ESPN, I mentioned, were at least open to the idea of the pumped-in fake crowd noise. Did I get the sense that both of them were excited to do it? Probably not. I think they want to find maybe more real artificial versions like what you're talking about. And I think what makes the audio of a game sound the way it does is not necessarily the big plays. Because, you know, a guy, when you're there, a guy catches the ball, he breaks into the open,

and it goes nuts inside of the stadium when you're there. When you're watching on TV, you don't necessarily notice that so much, as you notice the general ambiance. And if they were to have something like that, that were more of a notice the general ambiance and if they were to have something like that that were more of a bed underneath general ambiance I guess I would be like okay that's no big deal but then when someone does score a touchdown I mean is there going to be a guy in the truck that pushes the touchdown button yay like I don't know it just all seems all seems super weird but one thing I thought of and I wrote about this at Purple Insider, is the home field advantages and how those could change. Now, my first instinct is,

if everybody's playing in front of 5,000 or 10,000 fans, then of course, you know, maybe it evens out. But the Minnesota Vikings have one of the biggest advantages in the entire NFL. At home, at US Bank Stadium, theings defense has more interceptions than touchdowns allowed that is certainly not the case on the road for the vikings defense over the past few years who do you think would be most affected or do you think that these guys would just be professionals and go play or if it would have certain uh differing impacts depending on where you go yeah it's a great question and there's probably a million different answers going to depend on the person i talked to former players like Kyle Long and like Jeff Schwartz,

who's now an analyst, played in the league as an offensive lineman. Jeff's opinion was that it's not that big a deal. We're professionals. We practice the same as we play, blah, blah, blah. But Kyle was sort of saying, look, if I'm going to Seattle, I'm not worried about Michael Bennett. I'm paraphrasing what he said. He said, I'm worried about Michael Bennett and the noise.

And he really thinks defensive linemen especially are going to sort of, you know, the guys who thrive on the chaos a little bit, they're the ones who might be muted a little bit and have their effect on the game sort of minimized somewhat. So, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, you start with the three that everybody mentioned, somewhat. So yeah, I mean, I think, you know, you start with the three that everybody mentioned, Seattle, Kansas City, New Orleans. I would think there's another tier right there with Minnesota and, you know, Buffalo and some other even outdoor stadiums

that get really loud. And, you know, you could probably take a player poll and find out what the other loud stadiums are. But I would guess those teams have to be at a slight disadvantage. And, you know, the Vegas oddsmakers are going to have some say on this too, which is another fascinating angle. I mean, there's just so many things to think about with this. Yeah. It's funny because when I look through the numbers of recently anyway, and it's hard to pick out the right sample size because when Seattle's at

their most dangerous as a defense and most talented as a defense, it would probably be enhanced by having that. Recently, their home field advantage has not been as much, and the same goes for New Orleans. And yet in recent years, Houston has actually been really, really good at home in terms of point differential. And I wouldn't have expected the Houston Texans to be one of the top teams, but they are for a difference between how they perform at home and how they performed away. But figuring out is really tough. Now, I talked to

the author of Scorecasting. If anyone has ever read this book, if you haven't, you should because it's fascinating. It dives into a lot of different elements of sports and statistics and kind of how we view things with perceptions versus reality. The biggest thing they came away with is home field advantage is impacted by referees more than players. So they looked at basketball and guys shot the same free throw percentage, whether it was insane and people were waving crazy signs or not, or if they were at home and it was completely quiet. But when it came to getting those big calls at big times, especially on your own sideline,

they found there was a big difference. So that's what I'll be really interested to is how the refereeing might be different if there's no fans there. And the first thing, of course, I think about is the fail Mary play, you know, the one with the replacement refs in Seattle. I mean, you know, a play that we'll be talking about for years. Obviously, it led to the referees coming back. We'd seen enough at that point, but you had one ref signal touchdown, one ref signal incomplete. You almost have to ask yourself, what was the impact? Was this a home call, so to speak?

So I think that cannot be overlooked, and obviously you have to look at the individual referee units and everything. But, yeah, I mean, when referees get booed the way they can after a bad call, you almost feel like that makeup call is coming at some point, and to your point, right, I mean, we, you know, if you want to have the touchdown button on the artificial sound, what about the bad call button, right, because that's the sound sometimes that's the most compelling, is when a referee makes a call, the home crowd doesn't like it, and people are just up in arms. So, you know, absolutely there's an effect that has to be considered with the officials.

And, you know, circling back to what you said about the XFL, it was great to actually hear them talk to the person in the booth and get that insight to what that's really like. I think that NFL fans would like that a lot, to actually know what's being said and have them explain the calls better because you very rarely get any type of real explanation when something happens. They come out, they say, sorry, I didn't see what you saw, and moving on with the game, and that's it.

I wanted to ask you about a couple other things here that just sort of popped into my mind. One of them being the idea that players could go back soon to a mini training camp. I know that your teammate, Charles Robinson, has reported on this a little bit. Is it a good idea, do you think, to get players back into some sort of mini camp before they start training camp? And do you see this kind of playing out on time ultimately? Yeah obviously I think there there's got to be some sort of you know meeting of the minds here between the union

and the and the the teams as well and figuring out what's best what's worse you know you see a lot of the colleges where they've kind of moved up their schedule a little bit understanding that conditions have gotten better that there may be a second environmentally charged wave of this virus that could come during flu season, November, December, and so on. So, you know, I would think that, I think ideally the sooner they get in the better, but I think there's also an option of just simply reporting for training camp perhaps a week earlier or something like that, and continuing these virtual meetings that are happening. So I don't know the answer to that. I actually truthfully haven't read Charles' most recent story,

which went up about an hour I think before you and I hopped on here. So, you know, I can't speak for Charles on what he's reported, but I do know those are the conversations that are being had right now. Is it safe? You know, we're hearing about some of these schools with the players reporting, and there's a handful of them who have tested positive. Are the tests accurate? I mean, not to get too anecdotal, but my wife works in healthcare, and she didn't test positive, and I'm pretty damn sure she had COVID, you know, and so it's like, there's an accuracy issue with

some of these tests, and are you going to isolate people for two weeks? There's just a host of questions that come with it that I don't frankly have the answer to. And I think a lot of people are, you know, you're kind of doing it by trial at this point. And luckily for the NFL, they get to kind of watch everybody else do it before they have to. As the NBA is getting ready for this and they're going to play at Disneyland. And ultimately, I think we'll see the NHL and Major League Baseball. I'm less confident because they can never figure it out between players and owners uh in that's a tough one yeah I don't I don't see that happening I don't know maybe I'm wrong but I hope they do yeah I know

just figure it out guys figure out how to split up the cash and maybe Major League Baseball owners tell people how much cash you actually have um because that would go a long way I think telling the whole story there that might change the narrative in the public a slight bit yes yeah i think it would so let me ask you which uh players would be affected the most though by having no real offseason because some players will tell you look as long as we have training camp it's gonna be okay these zoom meetings we're learning enough from them. We can get out there. If you're a veteran player especially, I've always thought veteran players could mostly skip everything but the last two weeks of camp and come back in and be fine.

But if you are Justin Jefferson, Ezra Cleveland, Cameron Dantzler, Jeff Gladney, these guys all have a chance to play significant roles for the Minnesota Vikings this year, and now they're going to be put quite a ways behind having to try to do it virtually as opposed to getting hands-on coaching. And you think, I mean, just the fact that the Vikings have 15 draft picks, now not all of them are going to make the roster, but there could be undrafted guys who make it as well in our factory,

that we could be talking about 35%, 40% of their roster having not played in an NFL setting before this year, which is, you know, it's fascinating for a team that's probably going to be in contention and very good. So, you know, you put them on the list as a team to watch. Are they going to be able to, you know, gel the way they need to? They're already losing a top receiver. Obviously, Tom – I almost said Tom Pabrea. Tom Brady.

Yeah, don't do it. We have banned that from the show. Thank goodness. You can dump button me on that one, yeah. But, I mean, you know, new head coach for the first time in the NFL, Byron Lefkowitz OC, new receivers, the whole thing. It's going to be different for him even if he is Tom Brady, even if he has seen every look he's ever seen before.

So, you know, I would think the teams that bring back their head coach, their offensive coordinator, and their quarterback are going to be at an advantage, and the ones that aren't counting on as many rookies to jump right in. But then again, I thought that back in 2011, when we had the lockout year, you know, all Cam Newton did was throw for 400 yards in his first game and have an unbelievable rookie year we had andy dalton throw for a billion yards too i mean it could be that the defenses are affected in a way that we're you know that happened last time it's it's very fascinating to think about well and that's the vikings biggest disadvantage here

so if they don't have home field advantage in u.s bank stadium they've had half their defense leave and now is being replaced by some guys who have been in the system before. You and I, before we started recording, were chatting about Armin Watts, somebody who was there last year. But Gladney is very likely going to have to start, considering their situation there. And someone like Afadi Adenabo, who's never taken on that many snaps before,

he's going to have to step into a key position. I'm wondering, before I let you go, Eric, if there is a Vikings draft pick that is not the obvious Jeff Gladney or Justin Jefferson, who you think is kind of intriguing for winning any type of spot that is down the board a little bit. Because you mentioned there are 15, so there's lots of names to pick from. Sure. If there was anybody around draft time that they got where you went,

hey, you know what, keep an eye on that guy because he might emerge. And in the Zimmer era, we've seen lots of players go from late-round draft picks or undrafted and then become very big-time players in his system. Yeah, I mean, as I sort of think through who they got and stuff, I mean, look, I thought Kenny Willekes was worth going higher than a seventh-round pick. You know, I think James Lynch higher than a fourth-round pick. I love their draft. I really couldn't quibble with too many of their picks.

Just, you know, pound for pound, I thought they did a fantastic job with all those selections. You know, Troy Dye was a really good player and tough. You know, he did an interview as well as some teams would have liked to see. I had Cameron Dantzler as a top 50 player. Where did they get him? In the third round? Third round, yep.

Yeah. I mean, really a lot of those guys to choose from. I hate to give you the – they're all pretty good. Even Neville Clark I thought was a draftable prospect. I think they signed him if I'm not mistaken. So, boy, it's hard to choose just one. I mean, to me, Lynch has a little bit of a position and a role change that he's going to have to have. He's more of sort of an end. I know they could obviously use him as a

five technique or something like that. But given the fact that there was some turnover up front, you know, I could see him working his way into a role. Maybe not week one, you know, three sacks or anything like that, but I just thought he was a darn good football player who was, you know, is he the most athletic? Is he the most explosive? No, but, you know, he's so tenacious out there, and Willekes would be a, you know, sort of a smaller version of him in some ways. You know, one of those guys that would be kind of shocked if they didn't produce on some level. I wasn't as high on DJ Wanham as some other people were. I mean, they saw the potential, and I understand where he comes from.

But I really think those other two guys in some sort of limited role could end up being pretty good contributors this year. Well, the thing that a PFF study found was that it usually is production in college that translates over. So even if the guy wasn't a top draft pick, the Daniil Hunter is a real outlier situation. And Daniil Hunter is one of, I think, the greatest athletes to ever step on a football field in the entire history of the league. So it's hard to say, oh, well, we got a guy who, you know, ran a similar 40, or he's got a little less wingspan but still kind of long. I mean, Hunter is built in a lab. So this is completely different from trying to find that guy.

I would trust Andre Patterson's eye more than mine when it came to scouting someone like DJ Wanham. But I agree with you that if you're going to draft a guy in the fourth, a guy in the seventh, get guys who produce big time like Lynch and Willikes did. And I just want you to tell me what you like so much about Dantzler because I look at the 40 and I go well there's not too many corners that slow but I also think did he just not know how to run a 40 because when I watch him play I do not see a guy that runs a 4-6-4. Yeah no I was I was a little surprised

obviously at the time first of all I. I mean, that really hurt him. I think had he had a chance to have a full set of scouts see him run a 40, I know there was a video of one of his 40s that was put up there, and everybody said, ah, see, he's a 4-3-9 guy. Well, maybe the truth lies somewhere in between. But I loved his aggressiveness. You know, he always had an eye on trying to make a play on the ball, sort of this lean, high-cut, you know, guy who, you know, has a little bit of a different body style than you typically see in like the higher round corners, even though the length is obviously

very attractive. But I really liked the fact that he had a my ball mentality and he went up against some of the best receivers in the country in the SEC typically held his own you know never backed down from a challenge that's what I loved about him too he had that you know he'd go up against a Jamar Chase type of player and just say like I'm better than you are whether that was true or not I don't know but I think he you know has enough sort of press man ability and enough confidence to make up for what would, you know, scouts would say is less than, you know, elite level athleticism. And I think he lands with the perfect coach to help him. A guy who has coached lots of tall and lanky cornerbacks.

And then, you know, Zimmer just has this capability of taking guys and molding them into what he wants them to be. So Eric Edholm, Yahoo Sports, make sure you go check out his great piece, breaking down and talking with a lot of NFL executives. I'm sorry, broadcast executives. Pumped in crowd noise, mic'd up players, darkened seats.

How will the NFL broadcast could change without fans? So that is a long headline, Eric, and I appreciate you coming on, taking the time, and I hope people take the time to read your article as well. Thanks, man. Just be happy I didn't stick Collinsworth's slide into the headline. That's right. Got to tell you about a new sponsor for the show. It is SodaStick.

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Use the promo code PURPLEINSIDER for free shipping. That is S-O-T-A-S-T-I-C-K dot com. Soda Stick, the original Minnesota sports inspired goods. Code PURPLEINSIDER for free shipping. All right. If you were a listener back during my Score North days, you know this guy very well. And if you weren't, then you deserve this introduction to better known as the offensive line guy, the host of the Trench Warfare podcast, Brandon Thorne. What is going on, Brandon? How are you?

Happy to be on this new show that you have and just kind of continue what we had going before this is awesome well yeah and thank you for taking the time to come on and people who haven't heard you before know that you are about the most thorough analyst when it comes to the offensive line and they should follow your work on twitter and video breakdowns and things like that because there are very few people who put as much work into studying offensive and defensive line play as you. And guess what, Brandon? As you know so well, the Vikings offensive line has uncertainty. Shocker. I can't believe it.

This feels like deja vu here of every season since you and I have been doing shows together of breaking down who's going to be the starting five going into a season. But you know what, Brandon? This year, they actually have a chance to take a step forward, but I think that will depend on what combination they put out there, how it fits with the skill sets, and how well Ezra Cleveland can adapt quickly in a very strange offseason if he gets a chance to play. So let's start with Ezra Cleveland. Second round draft pick that some people had as high as a first rounder he ends up dropping to the Vikings I don't know whether it's

a good idea to try and start Ezra Cleveland right away considering he's coming from Boise State but one thing that I do know Brandon is when you have guys with really exceptional athleticism like his it always gives them a shot to go into training camp and win a job yeah uh he's he's a guy like you said that's you know when i when i watched him just this weekend a little bit just taking a look at him and just kind of seeing you know how he moves and some of the blocks he was executing and stuff like that and you could definitely see it on tape as well just how he's moving out there he's's definitely a twitchy-looking athlete, really good quickness. It's one of the good traits to have as an offensive lineman.

He looked like he was doing some pretty good things with his hands, too, in the run game and pass game. Just speaking generally on that and just the prototype of what it seems like the Vikings like at tackle, he definitely fits that mold and he'll be a nice guy to get in the system and start developing right away because I think that there's probably a chance that he's going to play this season. I mean, Riley Reif is definitely getting older, and he's been pretty durable, Reif has, over his career.

Very durable, really. But he's definitely played banged up quite a bit, and you can kind of see his play, the consistency of his play vary because of that, I think, is at least part of it. So, you know, as long as Reif doesn't, you know, fall off a cliff or anything like that in terms of his level of play, it's kind of hard to envision Cleveland, you know, getting on the field as a rookie. But I think that's also kind of predicated on how Pat Elfline plays in left guard.

You know, if he doesn't improve his play and regain, you know, some of what he looked like in years past, then you could be looking at a possibility of Reese going there and then Cleveland going to tackle. But, you know, I think that's an outside shot. You know, but that's at least something that crossed my mind that I think is possible. So that's interesting, you know, and I think that that an outside shot, but that's at least something that crossed my mind that I think is possible. So that's interesting, and I think that could go one of two or three ways on that left side. Yeah, I started making offensive line combinations, and I came up with about 20 different ones that the Vikings could land on,

and certainly that is one I want to ask you about. But with Cleveland, what step would he have to take or what would he have to show in training camp to be interesting to them as a starter? Because I look at the way that some of the rookie tackles played last year, even guys who were drafted high, and it is an incredibly difficult transition. The best player you've ever played in college is every single week at defensive end. There's probably 40 good defensive ends in the NFL if not more than that and stepping in and having to do that on a weekly basis is a really impossible task for rookies but if he was going to prove that to them what would he have to show yeah I mean I think in practice I guess we'll see what kind of practice situations guys are going to have but assuming

that he's going to get a chance to face off against somebody like Daniel Hunter in practice and some of the other defensive ends that they have. I mean, no more Everson Griffin, but there's still, you know, some like Weatherly or excuse me, not him, but let's see. Yeah, him, you know, they have, I know they signed, but they have Eddie Yarbrough, youough, Anthony Zetto, guys like that. So at least they played some games in the league, not that they're high-level starters. But it's really just how guys look in practice,

and particularly how he's going to look against somebody like Hunter in pass protection. You can evaluate that as a pro scout with the team, and I'm sure coaches and all that stuff are going to be looking at that very closely to see if he's able to trust his technique and play within himself in high-stress situations in practice and do it consistently and improve and all those kind of things and continue to just get better, then I think that that will give coaches more confidence when the season starts if one of those things happen, like we mentioned, putting him in there. So I really think it just comes down to trusting his technique and practice

and showing it against the competition he's going to see and not panicking, not, you know, playing outside of himself and trying to do too much and, you know, testing him, you know, being able to test him and put him in high-stress situations, I think is going to be critical, you know, and then, you know, just, you know, hopefully he won't have to play unless, you know, something goes wrong. But at least if he performs in those situations,

then coaches will have confidence to put him in there. But we'll see. It could be kind of similar to Brian O'Neal where he may just have to play. So we'll see. I think it could be a tremendous domino effect if somehow he does win that job over Riley Reif and they can bump Riley Reif into guard. And I have many a time stolen your opinion on this, but I think that Reif as an interior lineman would make a much better transition than Mike Remmers did a couple of years ago

because that's what triggers right in Vikings fans' minds when you say move a guy in from tackle to guard. But Reif is a greater talent. And also when you think about who they're playing in the NFC North, Brandon, the one major weakness they had last year is that the power rushers, the nose tackles, the Eddie Goldman's, Akeem Hicks, players like that, I think Hicks was actually out for the game that they played him in Chicago, but Eddie Goldman, they were able to just penetrate easily in the middle of the offensive line,

and if Reef is in there pass blocking against some of the bigger beasts that line up over the centers and guards I think that gives you a much better chance if he's able to do that and if not then you really are going to have to hold your breath and hope that Pat Elfline finally gets back to his 2017 form. Yeah I mean I think that's really what it's going to come down to and at least this year on the left side over there, it sounds like the more we talk about it, hash it out, like they're going to have some options, which is good.

A lot of teams don't even have viable options like this. So, I mean, between Reef, Elfline, and Cleveland, I think two of those three guys are going to be in those two positions. I feel a lot worse with other teams in terms of their top three for those positions than I do for the Vikings. Granted, I don't think it's very good either necessarily. I wouldn't qualify those three as one of the top half or definitely not like a top half maybe of the three to play those two positions on the left side across the league wide. But it's definitely in the middle of the pack or near there, maybe a little below. And I think the right guard spot, which I know we'll transition to eventually,

but that spot obviously is the one that is the most concerning, at least to me, because I see more viable options on this left side. Is it a good idea for the Vikings to check in with Larry Warford, who still doesn't have a job yet? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think a lot of teams would be smart to check in with Larry Warford. So, yeah, I don't think Minnesota is an exception to that. So yeah, he would instantly upgrade whoever you have there. All the names I'm looking at on the roster, he'd be a big upgrade. The big question is whether he can successfully handle the zone scheme and the screen passing

game. The offensive line is really built a specific way. If you look at the athletic profiles of everybody from Elfline to Bradbury to O'Neal to Cleveland, to have a guy who is not as fleet of foot, would that fit? I think so, yeah, because he's such a good run blocker. And if people would watch the Saints offensive line run block over the last few years, they run outside zone and wide zone, whatever you want to call it. They do stuff where they ask the offensive linemen to move laterally and block people, combo block people.

And Warford's done that at a high level. Now getting out on screens and things like that, maybe you run a little bit more to the left you know doing that stuff or you just design it to where maybe do some pin pull with him blocking down and Bradbury pulling around him with a tight end blocking down so O'Neal can get out and maybe Bradbury and O'Neal utilize them more you knowford, you know, he's had some nice blocks in space over his career, but I wouldn't call that a strength

of his, but outside zone, I would call a strength, for sure. So, it's just, you know, you just have to parse it a little bit there, but I, you know, I think that he can succeed in what he does mentally, what he does with his hands,

in pass protection, his professionalism, and just all that type of stuff of what he brings and doesn't make a lot of mistakes. I mean, there's a lot more, obviously, people. There's a lot more to offensive line play than blocking on the screen. Even if the offense utilizes a lot of them, there's, you know, there's a lot more than that. And I think Warford is pretty much good at everything. And I know that PFF grades aren't always your favorite or you don't always agree with them.

But I would say that Larry Warford had a higher PFF grade than anyone on the Vikings offensive line last year. So, you know, even though he might not be the perfect fit, if you are, I think, good at your job as a coach, which the Vikings have many good coaches, you could take someone like that and, like you laid out there, fit them in because they're talented or more talented, especially, than anybody else you have and make it a big bonus because last year the interior of the offensive line was just downright disastrous and they didn't do a ton to improve that. In fact, they moved on from Josh Klein, which maybe didn't stun you, but I was a little

surprised that they did that. So now you're looking at the right guard position, probably belonging to Drew Samia. What is your feeling on him from when he came out of college and what the challenge might be for him at right guard? Yeah, I like Samia coming out. I didn't necessarily peg him as an ideal fit for an outside zone scheme necessarily, but I don't think that he's a total liability there either um you know samia is a guy i think the thing that stood out most at oklahoma competitive toughness and power um and those

things can be utilized obviously for all offensive linemen in any scheme but i see those things translating well uh into this scheme because of what he could do in terms of creating displacement of defenders laterally. And he could do that by, you know, creating torque on guys and, you know, getting guys moved out of holes and things like that. And that's highly, you know, common and prevalent and everything in outside zone schemes. And it's not pure athleticism all the time it it's also you know utilizing leverage to your advantage to get defenders moved where they don't want to go and using their momentum against them and things like that and I think that he has some experience doing things like that and also I think that he's a pretty good

puller as well and you know Minnesota likes move their, get their offensive linemen moving and getting them into space and, you know, just allowing them to kind of shine that way. And I think, you know, Samia, he pulled all the time at Oklahoma. So he's definitely, and he had a couple of really nice reps when he played for the Vikings. I think it was preseason. He had some really nice plays pulling and moving and things like that. So, yeah, I think that he has the skill set to come in and be a starter in the NFL. Now he needs to harness that aggressiveness that he plays with because it could cause him to get overaggressive and lunge at guys and be early in pass protection too often with his hands,

which can lead to missing and letting guys go right by you. And that's something that, you know, I don't know how far he's come but I'd be probably most more concerned with pass protection with him than run blocking that's for sure I think he in the run game and everything that Minnesota likes to do there I think that he could fit and and be ready there quicker than pass protection so that that would be my my main concern there and it's just a matter of in my opinion if he's got better using his hands and timing his strikes and gotten better with his pass sets and things like that.

So he's in a good relationship to the rusher on a snap-to-snap basis. Alright, before we continue the discussion, I have to tell you about BetOnline. There's no shortage of action going on right now in our exclusive partner, BetOnline. NASCAR is back and BetOnline has hundreds of other games, events, and sports to get in on.

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to receive your new welcome bonus and check out all the action bet online your online wagering solution well you mentioned just you know how far he could come along in developing those areas of his game i think it says a lot at least so far unless they do sign a larry warford which i don't anticipate, but if they do, that might say, okay, we think that Samia needs more time. But the fact that they have had a little bit of cap space to work with and not gone out and signed two or three veterans, they've brought back some of the same players, your Dakota Dojers and Brett Jones, who know the system, but they didn't go out and get a Kelechi Osemele if he could still play or a Larry Warford or somebody else who's out there.

Ronald Leary is also a free agent, and not getting them says a lot about what they've seen. And then if you look at Week 17, he got to play the whole game. Rick Spielman mentioned that really liked what he saw from the young offensive linemen in Week 17, and they felt like some of those guys had kind of redshirt years and would be able to step in as starters. So I kind of took a lot of those comments about him and also maybe Ole Udo as well. I have a tough time seeing Udo playing.

But Garrett Bradbury is the biggest question to me, though, Brandon. If Garrett Bradbury takes a big step forward and handles those big guys we mentioned, your Kenny Clarks and your Eddie Goldmans and so forth. Z'Darrius Smith would line up over him sometimes. If he handles those guys better this year, the Vikings' offense is better, like end of sentence. He struggled so much in the passing game last year against some of the dominant players that it was really tough for Kirk Cousins, who's not going to avoid that interior pressure.

So I asked Garrett Bradbury, I think it was last week on his zoom call about you know taking that next step forward and he was pointing out that at this time last year or you know not too long ago at this time last year he was preparing for a combine he was running 40s and practicing his starts and now it's all past sets it's all designing his body with his trainers to be able to handle that power and things like that. I could foresee with his athleticism, his talent to be a first-round draft pick, him taking a big step forward this year. Yeah, I mean, I think that he could take a step forward.

I don't know. As long as it's incremental improvements, I think that he'll be on the right track. At his stature and things like that, I can't see him ever being very good in pass protection against elite-level

rushers. Not just any elite rushers, but specific molds that he sees in the NFC North, guys like Kenny Clark, Hakeem Hicks. I mean, those kind of guys. And then Jonathan Allen gave him some trouble a little bit last year, I believe, you know, Jerome Payne.

I mean, like the big guys with really good lengths and elite-level play strength and power who can, like, really bull rush guys back i mean he can get better there for sure he has to um but you know i'm not gonna ever see him being like travis frederick or anything like that i mean he's just not built that way he's gonna have to find other ways to win um and other guys have done it you know being undersized like him. You know, guys like Jason Kelsey. I mean, even going back, you know, like Olin Krutz and Kevin Millaw and these guys who played under 300 pounds, you know, and they're centers today who do it as well.

A lot of offensive linemen play under 300 pounds. But, yeah, he's just going to have to do really good with his hands. And, you know, as far as timing and placement on guys, I think that that's going to be huge, you know, because he's going to get overpowered sometimes by the names that I mentioned. I mean, and other names as well. It's just, you know, I don't really think that's ever going to go away. So I would expect that to happen.

But as long as he just, you know, incrementally improves how he uses his hands, I saw improvement in him last season. I mean, I don't know, you know, my opinions are different than I think most on him last season. I mean, you know, I wouldn't call him a good center overall, but I saw improvement. I saw some really good stuff in the running game pretty much from day one and then on through more and more of it. So nothing I saw last year was too surprising with him. I don't know. I mean, when you're that small with that short of arms,

you've got to be outstanding with your technique. And I think more than be outstanding with your technique. And I think more than anything, it was technique. And, you know, physically he's going to get overmatched a lot. That's going to be his life. Right, and I think that finding ways to work around some of that that you know is going to happen and play to his strengths, that last year I thought they did a really good job with getting him out on screens and things like that,

using him in the run game, as you mentioned, that they could do even more of that to highlight his athleticism, his quickness, and things like that to maximize his talents. Before I let you go, Brandon, I wanted to ask you about the other side of the ball and Michael Pierce. I don't know a lot about Michael Pierce other than that he is gargantuan. And so they go from one of the biggest human beings I've ever met in my life, Linval Joseph, to Michael Pierce.

What is the difference between those two? I mean, physically, they're so different looking. Height, weight's pretty much the same but height and length are different. Linball's just so much of a bigger person with much better length and he just wins differently that way

but Pierce the similarity is they're both very difficult to move but they use different skills and physical capabilities to come up with kind of a similar result, really. Pierce is, you know, he's six foot tall and he's not the longest arms or anything, but, you know, six foot 330, 340, you know, you're going to be obviously very low to the ground and your center of gravity is going to be tremendous.

He's a good athlete for his size, and he's just extremely difficult to get your hands on as a blocker just because he's so low to the ground and so freaking strong. He's just like a fire hydrant in the middle is basically what he is. And he's a lot of, he's just like a fire hydrant in the middle. It's basically what he is. And he's a lot of fun to watch. There's a lot of nuance to his game that I love. I mean, I've been watching him very closely for the last three years. 2017, I saw every snap of his.

And then last year I did as well. You know, I've been talking to him all offseason, basically, about his game and everything and just kind of picking his brain on it and he's he's very uh refined the way he goes about it and um he knows his opponent very well each week and he knows what they do well what they don't do well and and uh he's just an he's a good you know he's a good pro in know, he's a good pro, in my opinion, who's been very underrated for a while. And it was really cool to see a team like the Vikings, who I have a lot of respect for, for how they kind of run the organization, you know, as far as coaching and scouting,

to kind of identify him as somebody to replace Linval Joseph. I thought it was really cool, and I think he's going to do a really good job. I mean, he's not going to offer a lot as a pass rusher. You know, he'll be able to push the pocket a little bit and kind of compress things on a quarterback if he stands back there too long, which will be helpful to outside pass rushers because quarterbacks won't necessarily be able to step up into a lot of space when he's on the field, but he's not going to be out there.

Maybe, you know, I wouldn't put him in, you know, like Lin Ball, like his prime, like 2017 timeframe. He's not going to be even that much of a force against the pass. So, you know, fans and people may kind of see a little bit of a downgrade in that regard. But I think as a run defender and just everything else he's going to bring, it's going to be a very good signing. You know, and I think that's, you know, I'm sure that's what Minnesota wants out of him. You know, somebody to come in, play over a center and take up attention and bodies. So guys like Eric Hendricks can run free and attack the ball. Well, it's a whole other episode breaking down why that matters so much to Mike Zimmer's defense.

But, you know, one of the things that they do so well with defensive linemen who stuff the run on their own is they don't have to bring up another safety all the time into the box and can play too deep. And that really, really helps them against the pass and the play action and things. So there's a domino effect to having someone as good as Michael Pierce there. Brandon Thorne, you can follow him on Twitter, Brandon T-H-O-R-N, NFL. And also I see that you have a new episode out of the Trench Warfare podcast with Justin Pugh. So make sure you go find that too. If you like this podcast, you will really like hearing these stories and analysis from some former NFL offensive linemen that you that you really break

down I should also add too that you contribute to the athletic Denver Broncos coverage as well so I'm doing a lot of great stuff and I'm very happy to see it Brandon thanks for coming on buddy thanks man it's a pleasure. And anytime. I'm looking forward to this season and talking again. There will be plenty of opportunity, I can promise you, to talk offensive line with the Minnesota Vikings. All right. This is Purple Insider.

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