Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - How will the NFC North draft?

Episode Date: April 18, 2026

Matthew Coller talks with Marcus Whitman from That Franchise Guy about the draft strategy for the Minnesota Vikings, Green Bay Packers, Chicago Bears and Detroit Lions and then discusses the state of each team in a bigger perspective with Grant Bilse of The Zone in Madison, Wisconsin. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Purple Insider, presented by Fandul, Matthew Collar here. And in today's episode, we deep dive into the NFC North. Let's go. All right, we welcome back into the show after way too long of a hiatus. That franchise guy on YouTube, one of the great YouTube football analysis channels. Marcus Whitman, also one of us here in Minnesota with the twins hat on. Marcus, I want to talk some NFC North. you think you can, think you can navigate that? I think I can handle it.

I mean, I'm a little stoked about our, yeah, first place Minnesota twins had to represent that for sure. But we could talk some football. I heard there's something going on next week that's kind of important, but I'm supposed to talk about or something like that. But excited to be here. Like you said, it's been too long. Happy to be here.

I mean, maybe we should get it all out now with the twins. Like, oh, yeah, first place. Let's go. Because as the summer goes along, that may not last. But, well, let's just go through the teams, the NFC North. I want to get your takes. And I also want layered in there who you're seeing differently in the draft. Because at this point, when we're only a couple of really days away now from the NFL

draft, it feels like we've sort of resolved everything that we think and we really need the results. So I'm kind of curious about some of your conclusions as you get ready to release your final mock draft coming up soon on your channel. But crazy place to start here with the. the Minnesota Vikings, are you mocking Dylan thin them into them? Tell me the truth. I don't want to, I don't want to spoil. So, you know, everyone's going to go to your mock on Saturday and watch. But everybody else is. So, so I'm not because for me, he's going to be gone. Oh, yeah. That's why I'm

not mocking him to the Vikings. I think if he does fall to the Vikings, I think that will be a very easy pick for, for them to make. And when I do my mock drafts, it's typically a what a through what I would do situation. So maybe from a predictive sense, I would say, yes, there's probably a chance he's there. I think a lot of people are going to really like him. I would say is maybe 40 to 50% chance that he is there for the Vikings. It's kind of my gauge on it.

But to put things in perspective, he's the number seven player on my big board. I think he's phenomenal. He is the best true free safety prospect I've watched since I started doing this in 2017. Now, not the best safety prospect. there's been a bunch of really good safety prospects. But all those guys, for the most part, played either in the nickel or a true strong safety position. The Enaman put him in the single high center fielder role.

The 4-3-7 speed or whatever he ran absolutely plays. But he's got just rare anticipation, the ball skills. I love him in that specific role. There's just not a lot of college prospects that are asked to play a role like that. And he did a lot of that at Oregon. And then they even would just play like cover two and use him as the mid reed defender, like a third of their plays because that allowed them to just spread out towards the sideline with their safeties.

And they're like, okay, Dylan, you literally have run defense duties and the entire middle of the field. And there's a way to play it like that where cover two basically is cover three, where he is playing that middle part of the field. But anyway, I think he's absolutely phenomenal. You haven't revealed it yet, but I am a pack. fan. If the Vikings do get the intimate at 18, that's a worst case scenario for us. I think he's phenomenal. So the interesting part to me is, and look, when the entire universe is mocking one

player to the Vikings, I'm going to look for what are the different angles of this discussion, rather than just being like, all right, well, that's the coverage for me. I'll see you guys on December 23rd or whatever, or not December, April, April 23rd. But, you know, when it comes to the safety position. You mentioned, you know, free safety, the replaceability in free agency of that position. Now, I know that versatility is huge for Brian Flores. He absolutely checks that box. Even if he isn't the biggest guy, he comes downhill. He makes tackles. He gets around guards. He's very good at football. But if he only becomes 80% of what we think he can become, then there's like 20 guys out there who can do the same thing. And I think that's my pushback a little bit

on that is now I know people have said oh in this draft throw out positional value or in this draft number 17 is like number 40 it seems like a lot of these things get said every year and I don't know if they turn out to really be true I think that you have to factor the positional value element to this that the Vikings drafted cam binem in the fourth round as a cornerback moved him to safety and within two years he's like a top 15 player at that position we've seen Anthony Harris do it. We've seen Anderson Dejo do it. And these guys were undrafted free agents who kind of came up through a development system and turned out to be pretty good. I think that for me would be the reason I would be hesitant about it versus drafting a position that carries a little more weight

or is really a lot more scarce in the NFL. I think it's totally fair. I probably am a lot closer to you on that line of thinking as well as high as I am on the enemy. It's a big reason I'm very hesitant to say that Sonny Stiles should go in the top five of this draft. I think he has to hit a best case scenario. He has to be one of those true difference making players at the position. And it applies to safety too. Like I think if he's a Jesse Bates, if he's, you know, I don't project the gentleman's role to be the same. But if he's something like we see from Kyle Hamilton in Baltimore, more of in that nickel role, like there are certain safeties that make serious impacts to the defense that transcend what like a Cam Bynum's going to get in free agency,

Anthony Harris, those types. And I think the Edmund has a skill set that can make him unique with the speed and the range on the back end. I think he's good enough to move down in the box and do a lot of that stuff as well. That's where I think I disagree with a lot of people is you see like the Harrison Smith comps and like, oh, he's a strong safety. He's going to play down in the box. And that's actually, I don't think he's an amazing tackler. I don't think he's amazing at taking on blocks. I like him in space and for his coverage stuff first. But I do think he's special in that category enough, especially with the 18th pick.

But, I mean, I would take him at 10 to the Bengals. I'm that eye on him. So let's say that he's off the board. Then what comes next in your mind for the Vikings? Because we've been going through a lot of different permutations of, hey, would you like this, Vikings fans? What do you think about that? And the answer is often came out with just yes.

I mean, because if you look at the roster and where it is, you can make an argument for a lot of different. positions, but this draft seems to be thick with certain things and extremely thin with certain things. So I've been even making an argument for offensive tackle because there's a lot of talent for offensive tackle. And we don't really know the future of Brian O'Neill when he's only under contract through this year. Where have you been going as you've been mocking, draft simulating, thinking throughout your day about your fear of the Minnesota Vikings succeeding in this draft.

I definitely gravitate. Yeah, my fear of it. I do gravitate towards wide receiver a lot for them because for me, there's four big name wide receivers in this draft. They're all top 20 players in this draft. That's going to be, obviously, Carnal Tate is probably going to be the first one off the board. But then I'm really high in Mackay Lemon.

He's in the top 10 for me. Omar Cooper Jr. is phenomenal. Then you have Jordan Tyson. I don't know if the Vikings want to take, you know, injury risk first rounder. They haven't had the best luck with that kind of prospect. in recent years. But I, you know, I don't know that Jordan Addison's going to reach a long-term extension with this team with all the noise. I'm sure you've spent plenty of time diving into all

of that on this channel. If you're in that building and you're like, yeah, we put the fifth year option on him, but we're not, you know, we're not about to give Jordan Addison $30 million. Like, he's going to play this thing out. He's going to be on his way. I think if you're taking a best player available approach, there's a really good chance that, you know, wide receiver, the guy can step in and be a wide receiver three, maybe even be better than Jordan Addison in year one, which would just be insane. But then if you're looking at, you know, long term, like, okay, we can have the best wide receiver duo with him and with the new guy in Jefferson.

Like, I think that could make a ton of sense, especially like if Mackay Lemon or Omar Cooper Jr. are there, that's kind of a no-brainer for me. The top two cornerbacks in this draft are also phenomenal players, either of those, especially Dramad McCoy, again, coming off the ACL injury, but a lot of shades of like a Christian Gonzalez and how he moves and the upside of him. So, you know, if you're talking about, like, who are some of the best players in this draft that could fall to us at positions of need? That would be where I go.

If you're trying to stuff a need, kind of like they did last year, I would look at the interior of the defensive line being extremely thin. And that's where it gets a little bit stickier because this draft is pretty good at defensive tackle from like 25 to 50. So you're kind of in the same spot that we're last. year where it's like, do we just take the guy, even if it's a little bit early, knowing he's probably going to be a good player, but maybe we'll be more of an average pick for that draft slot.

But yeah, any of these guys, I mean, Flores can really utilize any type of defensive tackle, in my opinion, with the way he structures his fronts. But like Christian Miller, super big, super balanced, Peter Woods, more the athlete type, those would probably be the two guys you're considering if it's at 18. but those are probably the most common names that I just threw A that I'm thinking for them. I really like Christian Miller, but I like him in the second round. I'm okay with Peter Woods, I guess.

I feel like it's kind of a safe pick. But, you know, I was doing some research on defensive tackles and just how they performed in their last year of college by PFF run and pass rush grade versus how they turned out in the NFL. And basically, if you didn't dominate either one of them, thumbs down. Yeah. Every single guy that didn't dominate at least one side turned out to be a bust.

And some of the elite run defenders who didn't rush the passer that well turned out to be success stories. Like in Dexter Lawrence, who in I think year three learned how to rush the passer and then became a freak monster who was unbelievable. Vita Veo was okay at rushing the passer coming out. Maybe he was way better than somebody like Kayla Banks and he was way better than someone like Caden McDonald. I've just had a really tough time with that position when I think I saw a dude. Darryl Jackson is on your top 50. Third round, Darryl Jackson makes more sense to me than Peter Woods in the first round.

But I do think that wide receiver makes a ton of sense. Also, because you're trying to get everything you possibly can out of Kyler Murray. Whether he's here long term, we don't know, but he's only going to be worth $1.7 million or whatever it is, $1.3 million for one year. And then things get more complicated with him.

Can you maximize someone who could come in right away? and the fact that they made no real effort in free agency to add a wide receiver three might be a little bit of a signal there. Let's talk about the Packers. The Packers also in free agency, not a whole lot to really write home about, kind of lost more than they gained. Is this an offensive line situation? Is this you have to get people around Micah Parsons? Because last year when Micah Parsons went out, usually we talk about defenses as weak link systems, but it was just like,

Micah Parsons is the Green Bay Packers defense last year, and then it all fell apart when he was not there. So where have you been looking on the Packers side? I think you're right that it was kind of Michael Barson's or nothing. What really kind of got swept under the rug with Green Bay last year is Lucas Van Ness and Devante Wyatt were actually really good. They just were hurt for a large chunk of the season. So it kind of compounded those issues.

So it's pretty exciting to think about getting that group all back together this year. You know, I think Green Bay has two, the way I look at it, and, you know, you can kind of track the top 50 visits and what positions they've been trying to narrow in on. I think one way or another, I think they have a second round pick, they have a third round pick, defensive tackle and probably cornerback, I think are going to be the two spots they look there. Defensive tackle especially, I think they just, they need some. size there. So whether it is, you know, Daryl Jackson and the third, like you said, maybe it's like Lee Hunter, who I think was just in there for a visit. If he could fall to like 52, I think would be a great fit. I would be really excited about that. I'm a big fan of Lee Hunter, even at like the end of the first. But, you know, they, they brought over Hargrave and getting Wyatt back. And then

it's really nothing after that at defensive tackle. It's going to be a different system. You know, last year, they slanted their guys a lot and were able to kind of out-athlete you. with undersized defensive tackles. That's not necessarily going to play in a Jonathan Gannon defense, where he spent last offseason in Arizona trying to load up, you know, with like three or four different types of defensive tackles. So I absolutely,

like I would be stunned if they don't make the second or third round pick a defensive tackle. I think the offensive line, it would have to be like someone they really like has fallen to them. I think they know who their, their starting five is going to be. But the depth has certainly been, you know, completely wiped out. There's not, you know,

Darry and Kinnard did some fun stuff as like a sixth lineman, um, you know, doing some run blocking stuff. He could maybe be a swing tackle, but especially in the inside, it's like, man.

Uh, so they'll, they'll draft some offensive alignment at some point. I would probably guess it's going to be more, the Packers way of, you know, day three guys that have positional flexibility. That's kind of their,

their way they do it. So definitely DT and corner, some wide receiver depth, O-line depth. And a second running back as well would be great for this team, but this running back class is one of the worst position groups from a single draft class I've ever seen. Like it's,

there's three guys that I think are going to start out of this draft. So it's really bad there. But that's where I'm thinking for Green Bay. Is that you've got, well, obviously love Price and Washington, Jr. Is that who you have is your three? Emmett Johnson from Nebraska. Yeah.

Yeah. Mike Washington could, like, he's a boo. boomer bus type of guy. I'm not nearly as big a fan. He reminds me a ton of Isaac Garando. Do you remember him coming out? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

49ers, right? He went to the 49ers. And he very similarly, like almost an identical kind of hype story where the 40 time comes out, the draft, the combine happens. And everyone's like, ooh, I kind of like Isaac Garando all of a sudden, even though you had no idea who he was before he ran his 40. And then he ended up going like fourth round. and went to like the perfect fit even.

He went to the Kyle Shanahan offense to run wide zone. And even then they'd like look to replace him immediately. The difference is Garendo was in a much better running back class. This year it's like people are just screaming to find anybody else. So I think it's almost an eye for an eye like he is Isaac Grendo. Even all the way down to like the way he runs. He's like very stiff. So, you know, he's like a fourth to a fifth round guy for me.

I think I don't really see it as a starter. but I'm all about Emmett Johnson. I think that when it comes to the combine for running backs, I mean, look, if it's Saquan Barkley, if it's Bejohn Robinson, like, yeah, of course. Jeremy, I love those guys are going to run four threes at 220 or 15 pounds, and they're going to be freak animals. But everything else, usually instincts, football intelligence,

you know this from Aaron Jones. I know this from Aaron Jones. What do we think his 40 is right now? And yet he's still able to be a very effective NFL running back on reaction, ability to read blocks, intelligence, understanding plays. And Emmett Johnson could also catch the ball really well out of the backfield. I think he's got a great first step too, which I understand that a 75-yard touchdown run is what you really want. But I feel like Emmett Johnson in the NFL is 12 yards, 15 yards. He's not running away from a safety who's coming down to tackle him, but he is going to be a consistent type of force,

which I think natural runner screams to me more draft that guy than, hey, this guy runs a 4-3. Like, it's sort of like the receiver thing. We just get so enamored with that one number. It's like, hey, don't forget Denzel Boston catches the ball, which I've heard is an important thing with this. When it comes to Green Bay, are they, I saw Schaefter sort of say, I don't know, they might be in on Dexter Lawrence.

Is that possible? Is that a real thing? Um, I would, it just seems. far-fetched because to me it's like, why would the Giants move him if they're not getting a first-rounder this year or next year? Because the Packers don't have. So, I mean, for me, it's like the starting point with what the Packers can offer just isn't there. So that just doesn't really make sense to me. Like, could they technically make it work with their cap? That would probably be the very last, like, string that they could pull with their cap. Like, they're pretty up against it.

They've done a pretty good job. You mentioned. their free agency was very uninvolved. That was totally planned. Like their free agent signing was Micah Parsons. Like that was their free agent addition. You know, they knew we're going to trade for him. The plan is we have all these upcoming free agents. We're going to let them walk.

We'll get comp picks. Those will be cheap, you know, backups and potential starters for us. So their cap situation, I think, is it's under control. So cap-wise could do it. I just, you know, I think if, yeah, if they're willing to do it for a second this year and a third next year or two seconds. I don't know if they would do that necessarily because they would just have no picks. But I think they would like to have Dexter Lawrence, but it just doesn't make sense. It feels like there has been a little bit of extra juice, you know, squeezed onto this draft

with Dexter Lawrence being potentially available in a draft where I feel like it's been very hard to have like big debates and arguments over this, that, or the other thing. And now's like, ooh, a megastar player potentially available. I don't think that the Viking, would give up 18 for him. I also think that they would have to do some really crazy maneuvering with the salary cap to even make the trade before you sign him to the extension. But also he is average, I think he's played that against them three times and has 24 pressures or something.

I mean, it's been insane every time they've seen this. Yeah. That's, I've thought the same exact thing. And teams do like to like go get the guys that kill you. Like they think highly of those players that go off against you. Yeah. that playoff game he had when the Giants beat the Vikings, the playoffs was like one of the most dominant defensive line performances I've ever seen.

And also Garrett Bradbury is a Chicago bear. So, you know, you get that. Speaking of the bears, I see on your big board that you're not as high on Emmanuel McNeil Warren as some of the rest of the universe. I tend to agree with you. I feel like the only safeties that get taken really high are special, special safeties. And a lot of times, even the Derwin Jameses or the Kyle Hamilton's, have slid down the board a bit.

I'm curious to see what happens with Caleb Downs. But I feel like if Nick Emanwere cannot be a first round pick or Xavier McKinney, guys who are really, really good, then I'm not sure people are taking that shot on, I think an average athlete for the position Emmanuel McNeill Warren. Like he's a ball player, but it's not like he went and ran four three at the combine. It was more of like a four or five.

Like, okay, he should be all right. He's getting mocked to Chicago a lot because they lost Brisker. they kind of lost a lot of their secondary. They also need interior D-line as well. Is that where you are mainly focused with the Chicago Bears? Yeah, I always go straight to the D-line. Like the board has to fall really bad for them to not take D-Line. Like I need like Zion Young has to be gone.

Like I need the phones. Like I need a trade for Dexter Lawrence at 25. Like give them 25 for Dexter Lawrence. Like that needs to be off the board. board, Akeem Mesidor is someone I love. That's like the guy, like the Packers fan. Like, do not let the Bears get Akeem Mesidor, please. I think he's going to step into the league and be a really good pass rusher. Probably something on the plane of like where Jonathan Granard is right now. Like, I think Akeem Mesidor can step in and be something like that right away, um, even if he's older.

And then even on the interior of the D line, like yeah, give me Christian Miller. Let's roll the dice on Peter Woods. Like, hell, let's let's see if Caleb Banks can stay healthy. Like I think I, I I think it's pretty easy for me, how I've stacked this group up, to go D-Line for Chicago. Yeah, and with McNeil Warren, I'm not even so much like, I need you to be fast. I agree, though, if you're going to be a first-round pick, like, you want someone to be a potential difference maker, like we describe. You don't want him to just be, you know, Jaquan Bristker or whatever. Like, that's why Bristair goes in the second. I think A.J. Halsey out of LSU, like, he is absolutely what Chiquan Brisker was coming out.

So, you know, the Bears have those two second round picks. I think AJ Halsey there would make a lot of sense. McNeil Warren's top 50 for me, I think he's a really good playmaker on the back end. He punches balls out. He's got good coverage instincts and stuff. He's not an amazing mover, but he's got range. It was honestly the run defense stuff with me, with him. His first game of the year against Kentucky, he was the reason Kentucky had like three explosive runs

because he just takes, like, horrible angles to the ball. He's trying to like, and you know, you don't want to overreact to one game, but it was this one game against like good competition because he played at Toledo. And I think he came out and he's like, I'm going to show these scouts. Like I'm this amazing player. I can, I can, you know, take these bad angles, come under underneath these blocks and you stop these runs. And it's like, nope, you blue contain and you really cost the defense. And it showed up at times in other games, but especially that one, which is stuff you can clean up.

But like you said, not a great athlete. He's got stuff to clean up. I'll take him in the second round. High in the second round. But I don't agree with like top 20, top 25 even on him. It's just a little early. That's been a little bit odd for me to see him in mock drafts that high because not only do players like him almost never go all that high. But when I went to watch him, I was like, what am I like what am I not seeing here?

Because if you're playing at Toledo, especially now that if you're in the Mac conference, you are probably playing one year there and then going to Bama or going to, you know, Oregon or something if you're a great player. And people have talked about his loyalty. It's great. Stay with this program. Love that for him. But the Mac, that talent pool is worse than it used to be.

And it already was not one of the top conferences. So you are playing against pretty far below competition. And he didn't dominate it. It's not like he had 10 picks. It's not, I mean, he had some force fumbles, but it's not like he had 25 of them in his career or something. So I've just had trouble kind of seeing that one. I guess, you know, Chicago might go in that direction. Have you been, um, underwhelmed by Chicago's off season?

Because I have, I'll almost a little bit surprised. I mean, when Caleb Williams wins a playoff game, my, the obvious take is, and then has a real battle in a second playoff game is, uh-oh, this is bad for everybody in the NFC. And my expectation was, well, they got the rookie quarterback contract. They'll sign a bunch of people, push money into the future, yolo, whatever. They're over under right now in Fandul's nine and a half. And I feel like they could end up being a nine win type of team based on what I see with the roster unless Caleb Williams takes this enormous step forward.

Or they get Dexter Lawrence. Yeah. Yeah. Dexter Lines certainly would help. Yeah. And to be fair, like, you know, Drew Dalman retiring. Yeah. Is a huge blow that wasn't really anything to do with them.

Right. But yeah, I do think it's underwhelming. I mean, I said it last year about the Bears. Like, no one's afraid of that defense because the D-line is one of the worst in the league. Yeah. You get off the bus to go to Soldier Field and it's like, all right, we're going to be pretty comfy today. Like, yeah, Caleb might pull some crap off and he'll do that. But they're not, they're not an intimidating team to go up against right now.

And I think until they get that D-line fixed and they didn't do anything. I mean, and honestly, they overpaid for like they gave Neville Gallimore like two years, 12 million. It's like, that's a wait. August and a undrafted free agent gets hurt and you need to, you know, spend a million on a, bottom of the roster type of guy. They gave him $12 million. Yeah, I just, I don't think anybody is looking at what the Bears did and you're, and you're scared about it. You nailed it. Like, they need Caleb to go from inconsistent, hopeful superstar to superstar. And if that doesn't happen, you look at all the close games that they played in last year, the turnover regression with

their defense, I mean, they could be, they could be a six or a seven win team, honestly. So I have debuted something new on the show, NFC power rankings, because I've always really not liked power rankings. So I thought, well, I should just, I should put my money where my mouth is and try to show that I can do a real ethical, successful power ranking, right? And so I get like two teams in, like Rams, Seahawks. And I was like, now what and this is where I put the lions first in the NFC north but with a very small deviation from all the other teams so it's like Rams Seahawks humongous golf 49ers and then Lions Packers Vikings Bears squished together the lions need an offensive tackle right that's what they're going to do here I feel like with Detroit they could either get back on track hit on a an offensive tackle, get a reasonable center, get an office of coordinator who maybe knows at least somewhat what he's doing, and then all of a sudden Detroit back. Or they could have just

missed their window with Josh Reynolds dropping a fourth down pass and they'll never, ever, ever get back there. Which do you think it is of those things? Yeah, I lean more towards they'll be back. You know, and I don't think the fall off, like if, I think it's very possible they may have missed their Super Bowl window, but I don't think they'll drop to be anything less than like a really scrappy

wild card team, like if they're healthy. Like that was a big thing with them last year. Like the whole defense was just hurt. The whole secondary especially. See, I don't, I don't think they're going to just like drop off entirely. But I certainly could see, yeah, if they can't, if they can't get the offensive line

fixed up, like the Frank Regnow retirement was huge for them last year. Like that could be a little bit of a foresight with what the bears might be dealing with this year, losing their center out of nowhere. And I keep saying this about their defense. The whole like kneecap biting, like we're going to play press man. We're more physical. We're going to get away with grabbing and like be that team.

It's great when you have cornerbacks that can do that, but they don't have any cornerbacks. So it's like when are they going to wake up and be like, we need to run zone more effectively. And they like kind of try to start running zone, but none of their coaches are like comfortable doing that. So that's another thing with their defense. It's just like I think they have an identity problem right now

where they want to be something, but they're built a certain, you know, a different way. So I think they struggle with that as well. But yeah, I think their floor is super high. Ceiling is very high too, but they do, they got to get that tackle in the draft. They are in a really good spot to do that though, because this tackle draft is phenomenal.

Caden Proctor, you think, for them? I could see it. I think it sounds like the league's really high on Caden Proctor, so I could absolutely see it. My guy's Blake Miller. I don't know if they would do that. Blake Miller out of Clemson, I think, is probably the most, like, if we're talking about we want plug and play,

and he's ready to go, day one at right tackle, I really like him there. And he's got better upside than people talk about, just because there's some freaks at tackle in this draft. And he's also a freak. He's just not as much of a freak as Monroe Freeling or Ihanichore is like really fun. Proctor is a freak. But yeah, I think Blake Miller could be in play for them.

Fano could be in play. Like there's six tackles that would be good picks for them at 17. So they're sitting pretty. And they're like right before a huge run of tackles is going to hit from like 20 to 28. So they're pretty comfy to just kind of largely just take who they like the most. A couple of guys might go before them. Okay, before I let you go, because you got more mock draft to do and maybe Twins games to attend. I want to know what opinion of yours in the upcoming draft is the most far away from the draft industrial complex, as our friend Aaron Nagler likes to call it.

What is the one that you are just like, everybody's saying this, but I'm not really buying it. well you're getting me you're getting me prepped because i'm doing a my guys not my guys show with mike renner here this afternoon so it'll be a lot of that type of talk um a lot of great options there i'm going to give you two okay number one is david bailey is like the betting favorite to be the number two pick in this draft he's number 19 on my big board i think he's i think he's a speed rusher that's just okay against the run and he's going to be in for a rude awakening in terms of the way he wins in college isn't going to play as well against NFL competitions. If you just watch his sacks, it's either against low-level tackles that just literally

are physically ill-equipped to get the amount of depth that they need to cut off his just straight-line speed to the quarterback. So he's not even running a move a lot of these times. He's just winning with speed. NFL tackles, that's going to get shut down real quick. Or the quarterback just isn't stepping up where most of these, not ever, every NFL quarterback knows to step up in the pocket, but a lot more due in the NFL than these guys he's, you know, on his schedule.

And you take those plays away and watch the rest of it. And it's like, oh, like, he doesn't have that much power. He's not bendy. Like, that's the other thing.

Like people comparing to Brian Burns, like, dude, Brian Burns, he can get to the top of the corner and then turn it like none other. Like, he can't do that. Like,

he has no bend. He's got a beautiful spin move, but he doesn't use. it enough. And I think that's where with David Bailey, it's like, okay, if he's going to be worth it. Like I said, he's not a great run defender. He's got a really skinny lower half. He's going to have to really figure out the pass rush plan, how to use that speed to set up inside counters. And his bull rush is okay, but it's not great. So if the Jets take him at number two, I will be very critical of that. It will be somewhat close to when the Jags took Trayvon Walker. Now, if you want further down the

board, a guy that I'm like, I watched a couple weeks ago that was 240th on the consensus board. And I was like, that's a second round tackle. Carver Willis out of Washington is my guy this year that I realize I'm probably not going to be right about this because nobody has said a word. I did get a couple of messages from some people kind of connected to the program and some people that know some scouts are like, you're not crazy. Like he might go third, fourth round. Like he's going to go better than that consensus board has him. He broke out this year after transferring up from Kansas State. I guess you can call that transferring up.

I don't know. The conference structure is all over the place right now. I think getting into the Big Ten is an upgrade for sure. But was just playing so well at Washington, looked very similar to like what Troy Fattanoo looks like, who was a first round pick. Carver Willis blows out his MCL week seven against Ohio State in a game that he was kicking butt,

gets a four to six week injury, you know, he's going to miss probably the rest of the year is what they said. He comes back for the last couple games of the year. He locks down on a bad knee. He locks down Gabe Jackus, who a lot of people like in this draft. Yeah.

He's a great athlete. He's a great run blocker. I'm already spending too much time on a guy that's probably going to go in the fourth round, but that's my guy where I'm like, nope, I see the tape. That's my guy. And I would draft him a lot higher than a lot of people are saying.

It would not be the NFL draft if you didn't latch on to someone. Mine is Eli Hydenreich. I watched three games on TV on a Saturday where I was just like, dude, dude, who's around? And this guy can catch the ball and is a natural football player as much as anybody. And then when he went to the combine, he put up real numbers that are equivalent to slot wide receivers dynamic player.

He was technically, I think, a full back or something for them. But, you know, running back. And then they would put him in the slot. He was the entire. offense. They threw it to him all the time. It was, it was a lot of fun. And sometimes, everyone's in a while, there's like a Cooper Cup who you're like, I don't know, Washington, Eastern Michigan or Eastern Washington or whatever he was. And then like, but he caught a million passes. The Harold Fanon, a lot of times this guy can play at the NFL level. I'll give you

one quick one of mine, my biggest one. And then I'll let you go. Denzel Boston for me, wide receiver two to two. Okay. I see how you get there. People are too caught up. on his speed, a lot of strength, amazing hands, great ball tracking. I see like feeling elements to how he gets open and tracks the ball down the field when it's in the air. Because a lot of times we don't factor this. Like, oh, well, the guy runs a four or three, it'll be fine. The ball is up in the air and you have to beat someone for it.

He wins like every one of those. So that's my God. I'm assuming Carnell Tate's your number one then. Yeah, I mean, I think that one's kind of obvious. Because that was the only thing that's a totally different level. than everybody else. Yeah, but it's like his style is like the same as Boston, but he's just better.

So if Tate wasn't one, I'd be like, wait, that doesn't make sense, but that makes sense. Like, yeah, I could see how you get there.

And Omar Cooper Jr. is just one of my guys. Yeah, he's a lot of fun. Everyone's kind of gotten there with him, but I, he's my wide receiver too. So I've been convinced on 14 different wide receivers this year.

There's a lot to like. So, that franchise guy is, I truly one of the best football analysis channels out there in the YouTube Stratosphere. So make sure you go check that out. Marcus, good luck to your twins. And we'll see you soon, my friend.

Thanks for having me. All right, we welcome into the show for the 127th time. Grant Bills, the zone in Madison, Wisconsin to talk a little NFC North as we continue our NFC North discussion here on the show leading into the draft. And Grant, what exactly will you guys? be doing on draft night with no first round draft pick? Will you just be looking at pictures of Micah Parsons, you know, listening to his podcast or something like that?

Is that how you're, well, you know, Michael Parsons is really the first round pick. Is that what you'll be doing? And there will be those tweets, there will be those tweets from Packers people towards the end of the first round. They'll say, and with their first round selection, the Packer, you know, everyone will retweet it, which I'm not disparaging those tweets, but I know they'll happen. It's funny because I, so I do an evening drive show in Madison, but I produce our midday show. You've been on with Bill a bunch of times and at the Combine and at the Super Bowl and stuff.

And we do a draft show every year. And it's from like, it's from like 7 p.m. to 1130. And I'm here like all day already. So it's kind of a marathon, but it's fun. And I assumed, well, this year we won't have it. You know, and Bill's like, no, no, we're doing a draft show. It's like, then I need to start studying on behalf of these other teams like fast. I need to get in the loop if we're going to talk about all these other guys because I

been out of the loop on the draft. And I don't know, you can tell me it, it doesn't feel like the sexiest draft. I don't know that this draft has gotten as much run on a lot of the talk shows as maybe some drafts of the past. But then again, I'm not a draft nerd. So maybe I'm not the guy to ask. I think that is totally correct that one of the things that they're extremely lacking is the quarterback discussion that for a minute there, there was an attempt to be like Ty

Simpson is really the best quarterback in the draft. and, you know, maybe there's a couple people believe in that, but why even have that conversation when everyone knows who's already going number one? In fact, as Kirk Cousins is getting introduced by the Raiders, it's like, yeah, I mean, it's going to be awesome to work with Fernando Mendoza. Like, oh, I guess the cat's out of the bag there that they're dread, you know, as if we haven't known that for months and months. The Ty Simpson dialogue is not that interesting to me.

He's a small sample size player who's six feet tall and just looks like. a second or third round draft pick. I've been calling him like Alabama Colt McCoy. Yeah, sure. I mean, you would draft that guy, but you're not going to draft him in the first round if you're making any sort of sense with yourself. So there's been no real debate there.

There hasn't been a player. There's been a little bit of Rubin Bain and his driving issues, but there hasn't been a Uber controversial player where it's, this guy's got the greatest talent in the world. but will he listen to his coaches? Yeah, but there's that, but I was just watching the 98 draft back with Randy Moss. And the whole draft, it's, yeah, it's great.

It's the whole draft is dedicated to what a bad person. Randy Moss says they got reporters all over the countries. Well, is he, you know, going to listen to his coaches. What's the off field thing and everything else? And they spent the entire night just hammering Moss's off field issues. It just doesn't feel like there's that guy that is bringing the, when is he going to be drafted? Yeah, I guess maybe

Jeremiah Love is in some way filling that void, but it's not in a, you know, my mind went to Jalen Carter where it's the classic. Well, he might just straight up be the best player in the draft, but, you know, do you, do you, you know, are you going to be willing to take that risk? Jeremiah, love, people have said the same thing. He might just straight up be the best player in the draft,

but then you get into a conversation about positional value. I know that was a big thing during the week of the combine. So I don't know. pulled up the first mock draft that I saw is Mel Kiper and I see he has Tennessee taking Jeremiah Love. I wouldn't be shocked if he goes in the top five or if he fall. I don't know. So I guess Jeremiah Love is that guy or Lofsky tried to get a little Ty Simpson thing going. And I guess it was red meat for 48 hours or so and that's about it. Other than that, it's, you know, some Ohio State defenders and Ohio Statewide receiver. And Rubin Bain, who has, you know, a little bit of off

the field drama. And that kind of feels like it's it to me. And it also doesn't feel like it's going to have a real impact on his draft status. Like it's out there, but the way that everyone has acted about it is kind of like, yeah, that's not going to keep him from being drafted wherever. So here's what I want to do with you is I want to talk about the state of these teams. So I went into detail earlier in the show with Marcus Whitman, that franchise guy about the exact players and targets and everything else. But I want to talk about the bigger picture and where the draft fits in leading into this season.

So why don't we begin with, oh, I don't know, the Minnesota Vikings and your perspective about what's happened here. I have said to a handful of different Packers followers that I know, I said, you guys know exactly what's going to happen here, right? Like, you know when the Vikings get a rando quarterback from some other team who has a lot of talent. You know the way that this goes. History is already written. But what was the reaction there to the Vikings getting Kyler Merck? I think there's a lot of disrespect for Kyler. And I think the call of duty thing is really stuck. And I think it was you. I think I heard on your

podcast, you likened the call of duty thing to Sam Darnold seeing ghosts. Right. Where it was a problem. And we're not going to act like it didn't happen. But it was years ago. you could very well see it being an isolated thing that the player moves past. So I think from Packers fans, not all, but I think generally if you were to pull 100 of them, they would kind of scoff at Kyler Murray and he's a little bit of a punchline.

But what I keep pointing out, now I think he's so fun. I think when he's on, he's one of the most fun football players to watch. I liken him very loosely to Steph Curry, where it's like when that guy's on, I don't know that there's a more fun player to watch. He hasn't succeeded at the level of Steph,

but there's that thing where it's like if you get that on a good night, that's, that's theater. So I like Kyler, but what I keep pointing out to my listeners is, guys, the Vikings won the same amount of games that our team did last year. And, you know, the end was kind of weird. Like, okay, whatever, throw out the week 17 game. But the Vikings and the Packers had the same record last year and the worst quarterback play I can remember ever.

And they won the same amount of games. So even if Kyler comes in and it's just okay, like that's a team you're contending with. That's not a team that you can put on the, shelf and forget about even if Kyler's just okay. And I think he'll be better than okay. Do you feel like the gap between all the NFC North teams is almost nothing at this point? Like I'm waiting for something to separate the teams. It certainly won't be in the first round with the Green Bay Packers with no draft pick. But I mean, I guess it could be if it's the Vikings

depending on their pick or depending on some type of move that they could make. Detroit feels very chalky like they need a tackle. They're going to get a tackle. There's a bunch of of right tackles and it sounds like they're moving Penae Soule to the left side. So do they take like a Blake Miller or something and just lock them in there? And Chicago is kind of a wild card here, but they're not drafting until later. So can they get in a draft that's already talked about is not having many impact players? Can they really get an impact player there? This leaves the door open. If we agree on that premise, it leaves the door open to if Kyler Murray comes in here and clicks with Justin Jefferson immediately, which he very well,

well could, then everyone's going to be reminded of what they knew in 2024, which is how good the Vikings passing game can be when it's running through Justin Jefferson. I feel like for the rest of the NFC North teams, the worst possible outcome here was Kyler Murray coming to the Vikings because everybody else, you could say, well, you're going to intercept Gino Smith 47 times or, you know, oh, Kirk's back. Well, you know, you've kind of been there, done that. But with Kyler, there's a wild card element where, oh, it could happen because this This is the best organization he's been with by about 50 miles.

Well, and I think if Kyler Murray can simply do the thing that every quarterback other than J.J. McCarthy has been able to do, which is throw the ball to Justin Jefferson. Like that, there you go. Like that's that's not all you need, but for a team that won nine games last year and had again, some of the worst quarterback play I've ever seen. Also, you know, Jeff, everybody loves Jeff Hathley. Yeah. In Green Bay, but also outside of Green Bay.

Like big press conference winner gives a great impression. you know, a couple times throughout the season last year, I'm like, I think Brian Flores is the guy who everyone seems to think Jeff Haffley is, where like, oh, your offense or your quarterback doesn't have it today and you need your defense to straight up win you a game or help you survive a month where a quarterback's injured. Like Brian Flores can do that. And he did that a bunch last year and he's back. Unlike Jeff Haffley, who I think was good, pretty good. I think there's a chance he might be a better head coach than D.C. actually, like with some of his traits, we'll see Miami's going to be tough. I think the one thing that could separate maybe an NFC North team is if Caleb Williams is like just a legit. a superstar? Like, if he's a superstar, because he has the traits to be a superstar, and some of those inconsistencies are smoothened out. But even if he is, like, I still think the lions, the Packers and the Vikings are all very good. So I don't think the bears, even in that scenario, would run away with the division by four or five games. But I guess that would be the biggest thing that I would look at and say, if one of these teams really establishes themselves, I'd think, well, Caleb Williams put it all together with Ben Johnson and he's just awesome now.

And he's got the, you know, the answers to every test. So because our show is wonderfully presented by Fanduel, I'm going to give you the Fandul over and Arndonters for each of these teams here. Beautiful. The Vikings over under is eight and a half. And I think that it's possible to go under because of their lack of depth. Now, I think a lot of teams have a lack of depth and that's just reality with 32 teams in the NFL. But if they were to lose, you could pick a couple of players.

If they go out, you're in a lot of trouble. even the wide receiver position. I mean, there is no current wide receiver three on this football team. Ty Felton had a couple of catches last year, a third round draft pick. But eight and a half, I think with Kyler Murray here, considering, as you mentioned, that they won with a tough schedule, they'd go overseas for two straight weeks, poor quarterback play nine last year. It feels low to me, but also I think my confidence in Kyler Murray is higher after watching

Arizona playing, be like, okay, well, this should be better than that. Yeah. I mean, I just have such little, I have such a low opinion of Arizona as a franchise. I think the Jets take all these bullets and rightfully so. I think if Arizona was just in a media market that more people cared about, we'd think of them similarly. Yes. So I think you need to factor that into how you evaluate Kyler or how you project him coming

out. I never want to look at a Vegas line to be like, oh, easy. because, you know, Fanduil and all these, but they're so good at this and they know what they're doing. I would feel confident if I had to pick a side, I would think over. And I wouldn't say maybe 13 wins, but they won nine last year with a tough schedule and no quarterbacks. You tell me this. Is Dara saw like on Bactiari watch where we're just not sure if that knee's going to heal all the way?

Or was last year just to bounce back and do we expect him like 100% this year? Because I feel like that's one of the players that you're talking about depth wise, right? I think that that is a great way to put it, what you, dealt with there with David Bacchieri for years in the knee. We just don't know. They shut him down at the end of the year. Clearly, there was frustration from everybody that he couldn't just come back and be the elite left tackle.

But this is why tackle is on the board for me, is that behind the scenes, I'm sure that they have a good sense for where that thing is at. But from the outside, like, no one has come out and said, hey, there's nothing to see here. We ask COC about it in the owner's meetings. And it wasn't, oh, Christian's 100%. guys. What are you even talking about? So it sounds, I mean, it sounds more like, will they have to manage something here? Is it possible that he's only able to practice

one or two days a week going forward? How long can that last? I mean, it's also, you look at the contract situation. It's not one you can get out of any time soon, which makes this even more complicated for the Vikings. And I also feel like it makes it even more important that they win this year because when you look at 2007 and beyond, you just have no idea what that looks like. Is Dara Saw going to be healthy long term? Is Kyler Murray going to be your quarterback? Where is Justin Jefferson with his feelings on the organization?

Jordan Addison, we don't know if he's long for being a Minnesota Viking. Van Ginkle's a free agent. They've floated out there trading Jonathan Grenard. Harrison Smith is either going to retire this year, or next year, it feels like of all the teams the most, you have to get this done because you really don't know what is around the corner. They are who a lot of people maybe think the Steelers are. Like one last round with all these great players. It's like, okay, yeah, but I think Minnesota's players are actually good. Like, I think the Steelers have some big names. So I hadn't heard Minnesota

talked about that. I guess I'm not up to date with where their contracts are, but the way you describe it in the ages of the players, certainly. I think the O line is a big story of the off season for the entire North. And, you know, we talked about this on my show, the week that Drew Dalman up and retired out of nowhere, because you look at the Packers, the Bears, the Lions. The Lions built that rebuild starting with the O-Line. The Packers just have had always good lines, and they draft good linemen and they, you know, they find fourth, fifth round guy.

It's just a strength of theirs organizationally. And it's a cornerstone of Ben Johnson. Those three teams all needed to fix some component, need to fix some component of their line this year. And I think which of those three teams does the best job is going to go a long way in deciding which of those three teams is maybe in the lead next year. And I don't know where that leaves the Vikings. You know, if Derisaw is healthy, that's a big piece. But I'm sure offensive line is, you know, it's a big part of every off season. But I think especially for Packers, Lions, Bears, like it's just such a big piece of how I would look at, you know, the beginning of

next year, which team figures it out and, you know, plugs their gaps the best. I'm going to make a Packers comparison because I'm very interested in where you see them and their timeline and so forth to the 2021 Minnesota Vikings. Okay. Now, I will refresh you on this. Kirk Cousins was expensive, but was also playing really good football. They had Clint Kubiak was their offensive coordinator. Delvin Cook is still here and playing good football overall.

Justin's just starting to come into his absolute peak. the defense is very thin. There is one truly great player, which was DeNeal Hunter, along with, you know, Harrison Smith was still here. So they had some of the guys that were great, but they had lost a lot of players and they thought that they could kind of plug it with this and plug it with that. And what ended up happening is they played a bunch of one score games and they lost more than they should have that year, got a honestly great season out of Kirk Cousins,

maybe his best is a Minnesota Viking. and they ended up missing the playoffs by a game. I feel like the Green Bay Packers with Jordan Love's contract, with where Mike Parsons is at, it's very hard to see them not being right there in the conversation. But I also am struggling to see what has happened or what will happen that makes this really different from what it has been. And this must be, if you agree with that idea,

it must be weird for Packers fans because it's been Super Bowl or bust for 30 years. And then as soon as Jordan Love wins a playoff game in such dominating fashion as he did against the Cowboys, it's like, oh, here we go again, everybody. We're not changing anything. Right. We're not changing how we view this thing, this operation at all. If I said the word Grant malaise to you, would that be a word you might use? A lot of Packers fans think there is an organization.

malays. I'm sure you get this. I'm sure every sports talk show and sports podcast gets this from listeners and followers. Like, this organization is just happy getting into the playoffs. That fan exists everywhere. That's not, you know, except for the teams that don't make the playoffs. But for any team that's like competent in all their fans that think that, but the way they just ran it back this offseason, aggressively, like they aggressively ran it back. They kind of puffed their chest out and says, no, we're we're extending Matt LaFleur. Basacci left, but that's because he wanted to leave. They had to get a new DC, but that's because Jeff Haffley got a head job.

The offensive coordinator is still the same. A lot of the position coaches are still the same. There was no recognition organizationally that we have a problem and we're going to try to fix it. Now, what you're describing a team that could maybe be in the middle or slightly above the middle, if you're the seventh or the sixth seed, I have an issue saying middle because you're a little better than the middle. That's semantics, I know. I don't think it's talent related. I don't think the Packers only won nine games last year and lost in the first round because of their talent.

I think it was maturity, execution, details, coaching, quarterback in some of those two-minute moments. I think they had enough talent to beat the Bears and to win a lot of those regular season games. Did they have the talent to go to Seattle? Probably not. But I would have felt better had they done that. I'd feel better if they beat the teams they're supposed to beat. And then they lose a hard-fought game to a team that's outmaning them because they have all sorts of injuries. So I'm not rejecting that scenario that you're presenting at all.

I just think it's more this team has been needing to grow up now for the better part of two years and they haven't done it. I don't know if it's because they lack good players. They might not have a loaded roster like the Seahawks do, but they have a much better roster than you would think looking at their record last year. So coaching quarterback, just like the general ethos of the way the team plays and executes in big moments. And in the fourth quarter, that's the issue to me. And at some point, it does become a trend more than just a random thing. But the struggle that I would have in this, when you're doing a show breaking down every single moment of every single thing that happens, when you lose a game like again, no, no, when you tie a game against the Dallas Cowboys, I mean, you just want to rip your mustache off, right? And you just can't believe that they would botch something so horrendous that that's a game that you,

should win and et cetera, et cetera. I think when you're not in that position, you're a little more outside, then you look at, I was watching that Denver game. And it was like, okay, they're beating Denver. Denver's great. And if they win this game, they go to what, like 10, 3 and 1 and watch out everybody. So like, here we go. Right, exactly.

Michael Parsons. They're all coming together. And Watson was coming back at that time. Like, he was really starting to emerge and play probably his best football that I've scene and play. And then everything hits the fan and it falls apart. You lose the rest of the games. And suddenly in that light of day at the end of the season, it looks so much different. How do we parse out? Because you're saying, hey, they were confident they ran it back. I think if you're inside the building, you're like, uh, we were this close to being 10, 3 and 1 and

like being a, a Super Bowl favorite going into the playoffs had everything not gone to hell. And then, of course, you know, Jordan Love gets a concussion and everything else. A lot kind of went wrong at the worst possible time. How much of it was that? Now that you had like a lot more time to think about it, how much of it was that and how much of it is the coaching, the roster construction, etc., etc. So I don't think everyone wants to blame the coach because it makes him feel better, right? People blame the coach because it helps you like rationalize. And I think the coach is, anytime you're blowing a bunch of leads, the coach has to hold some responsibility.

that Denver game is such an interesting turning point because in that third quarter, they come out of half, they get the ball, they score a touchdown and it felt like, here it is. This is the team we've been waiting for. They're about to peak at the right time. This will be their signature win. They're going to chart. And then it just all came crashing down because of injuries. They'd already lost Tucker Kraft, who's just an awesome player.

But then they lose Micah Parsons. And they lost Christian Watson to what wasn't a significant injury, but felt like one at the time. And it felt like that in the moment. And I'm sure it felt like that in the locker room. He left in an ambulance. And all of the Packers writers after that game came out. So not fans. Like people who objectively cover the team said their Super Bowl hopes are dead.

And I don't think that was unreasonable. And the way I viewed, I'm very proud of this, actually. The way I framed it on my show was after Denver, the writing was on the wall. But the team's problem was they stood there and they read the writing. Like they just wallowed in it. Whereas San Francisco, I'd say the writing was on the wall. Yeah. That team kept playing.

That team kept fighting. And you could say, well, Grant, what's the different? San Francisco lost in the division round anyways. Yeah, but they went to Philly and won a game. They didn't completely fold and lose five straight to end the year. And I guess my frustration with folks who say, well, if they were healthy, it would have been different. I don't think it would have been. I think if they were healthy, they would have advanced a round or two farther and lost in a very similar fashion to a much better team.

They wouldn't have been able to hold their water in the fourth quarter. They would have blown a lead. I just think it would have been on a higher scale because they would have had better players and they would have been playing better competition. And that's a problem that simply running it back and getting healthy doesn't address with me. But that was sure would have felt a heck of a lot better losing to the Rams or the Seahawks in the divisional round or in the NFC championship than it would have the way that it went down. But I do think that you cannot, it's a hard balance, right? Because if you look at the last two Super Bowl champions, I haven't looked at the last 50.

I'll just give you the last two. There was one player missing from the starting lineup of the Seattle Seahawks. and he was kind of a backup. It was their RB2, Zach Charbonne, who tore his ACL. Everybody else on the Seahawks was completely healthy.

And then you go back to the Philadelphia Eagles. And I believe there was one player who had had a season ending injury who started the beginning of the year. So week one, and they played everybody in the Super Bowl. I mean, I don't know. Like, that is the luckiest luck

that you're ever going to have. And those teams are deserving of their Super Bowls, but it shows you how much it matters. If you lose your all pro caliber tight end and the best defensive player in football not named Miles Garrett, you're probably not winning. And your quarterback has been injured as well. You're probably not winning the Super Bowl. But the way that it went down was such a travesty that it lingers.

Stuff like that lingers. And I think as you go forward with the Matt LaFleur, it's like how many of these things can linger? Like the game against San Francisco with the punt and all that, you know, the just many kind of big game. This is the one. This is where you show you're different. The no show in Philadelphia before. I mean,

and even honestly, against San Francisco, you have a chance to win that in 2020 and potentially go to the NFC championship. Yeah, they had a lead in the fourth quarter. And the defense got them the ball a couple of times to slam the door and they didn't do it. Like where how many of these can add up.

That is my question. That's sort of how it felt with Zimmer. He added a ton of drama to it that was problematic too. But it was also like you, You got killed the NFC championship and you got Kirk and you got, you know, blown out by the 49ers in the playoffs and you lost a bunch of close games where you could have been in the playoffs the two years before. And eventually that just sort of everyone collapses under the weight of not getting it done.

So I want to address the lingering part. But first, just one more thing on the health. The Patriots were really healthy too. They were the Super Bowl runner ups and they were very healthy. And the Packers injuries, it's not just that they were their best players, Tucker Kraft and Micah Parsons. It's that those are the two players on either side of the ball where it's like, hey, we're not great at this, but this one player makes up for it.

Like Micah Parsons makes the rest of the pass rush. So the rest of the defense makes sense. Tucker Kraft is our intermediate passing game. We take deep shots. We run the ball and everything else in the middle is Tucker Kraft. So it was just, I mean, it was double jeopardy for that reason. Now, on the lingering part, I think there's so many examples in the NFL where a head coach and a team loses a brutal game in the playoffs and they blow it, they gag, they whatever.

And then that coaches, you know, they coach a couple more years. They never get back and the coaches eventually fired. And I think of the Packers with McCarthy in 2014. When he was fired in 2018, we all sat around and said, well, okay, knowing what we know now, you should just cut bait after that Seattle loss. It was so bad. It was kind of toast from there on out. And the Packers had an opportunity to LaFleur's contract was coming up.

This would have been the offseason. They extended him instead. And I just wonder if three years down the road, we don't look back and said, well, we should have known after the Bears game. Yeah. Why did we have to keep going with this? And I don't think he's the only problem. I think there's plenty of other issues, you know,

with players and individuals because I think blaming the coach is easy. But I just wonder if we don't look back and say, well, we should, it should have been obvious. Why didn't we just do it, you know, with the benefit of hindsight? Sure, but why didn't we just do it after the Bears game? I'm going to think about that. Because I honestly think the Packers are just begging to be back in the same spot this year. If I had to make a bet, I don't know how you would bet this at Fandul,

I would say they'll lose three or four games. They shouldn't. And there'll be a wild card instead of winning the division. and they'll go on the road in the first round and be drawing dead against a really good team as the six or the seven seed. Because that's that's kind of what they've been. And I feel like they're just asking for that result again. Green Bay is, I think, second most for the betting markets are always way too high on Green Bay. Their over under on Fan duel is 10 and a half right now, which I think is too much for them.

But is there a thing? Is there a move? Is there a decision? Is there a draft pick in the second or third round, a trade or something? that could make you think, you know what, actually, we're so back or whatever it is. We're so done. We're so back sort of meme.

So I don't, this is going to sound interesting. So the Packers signed Hargrave, right? He's going to start. That will be a new starter on their team. Yeah. Other than sliding Rashid Walker out and starting Jordan Morgan, they're going to make some fringe moves that I don't think will be all that consequential.

I think the Packers could, could come out of this offseason with no new start. and be a better team and be just fine. Like, it's crazy. And Packers fans pull their hair out when I say this. But I'm like, I think you can win football games starting Nixon and Valentine at corner because your safeties are good. If Xavier McKinney catches the ball, he didn't last year, your corners are okay. If your pass rush is healthy and good, your corners are okay.

If Edger and Cooper and they replace Quay Walker with Zaire Franklin, like, I think the Packers issue this offseason, it's not sexy, but there's need depth. They need young cheap corners. They need young cheap D-Line. and they need an extra O lineman or two, which team doesn't. I really think that's the story of their offseason. They swapped out Nate Hobbs for St. Juist, who will ostensibly play football, which is more than Nate Hobbs did, and he can play special teams.

No, I don't think there's any big swing or one big player. I think a lot of the team's success is going to be, can Kraft and Parsons be healthy? And can a couple of their young players, Edron Cooper, Matthew Golden, can those guys take a step? And that's nothing new coming from outside of the building, to your point. Okay, would you rather go in depth here? You have a job to get back to. Not really not a real job. With the Bears or the Lions, which would you rather go deeper on?

Probably the Bears just because, well, the Packers gagged two games away from them. I feel like that's more front of mind. Well, and the Lions, I don't know if you agree with this. I think that they are who we think they are. And it really comes down to do you stay healthy in some way? and do you maybe even adapt your playing style to try to stay healthy? And I remember someone telling me, and I hope I don't have this wrong, that in practice, they're like doing full tackling and stuff in training camp.

The Vikings, they have a rule like nobody on the ground. They don't want anybody getting hurt in training camp. If you're going to lose players, lose them in games that actually matter. So I wonder about Dan Campbell looking himself in the mirror and maybe saying, is it me that, you know, is the reason that, you know, is the reason that all of my, they don't, they're not next to an electrical station or whatever, like the 49ers. But I just don't see anything different about the Detroit Lions.

It feels like their bet here is that they're going to get a little better center. They're going to get much better at offensive coordinator. And if they stay healthy on defense, that they can win the division. And I don't actually disagree with them. If that's their bet, then I don't disagree with them. And I think they can win the division. I think the Detroit Lions mostly this last year were the same team they were a year ago. with small differences.

And this is why, you know, football is such a funny sport. Like, James and Williams drops that fourth down ball against the Packers on Thanksgiving. Like a couple plays like that over the course of the season is the difference between winning 13 games and it's a special year. And you win eight or nine and it's a catastrophe. I know they add injuries to their O line. And the O line is so important to the way they built that thing as we discussed that they need to get that fixed. But I think it's more about hoping that you don't have crippling, you know, hope to not have crippling injuries. and in close games, like picking up that one fourth down instead of falling on your face.

And I do think I do think the loss of Ben Johnson matters there maybe more than anywhere else. Yeah. It's like, do you have that one play call in that one spot every week that's the difference between a win and a loss? But I don't think the lions are much worse than they were two years ago. And I don't know that there'll be leagues better this year than they were last year. But I think the results will probably be better just based on, you know, how numbers and how luck work. So I don't have anything to disagree with that. They are over under 10 and a half, which seems also kind of high to me,

based on how all these teams are going to beat each other up. They also all play the NFC South. So it could help everybody. Could be one of those years. But Chicago is more interesting because my expectation was that Caleb Williams taking this big step forward. It usually would send up a flare of rookie quarterback contract. He can actually do it. And this is the team that's going to go overspend on everybody.

in free agency, but they kind of did that the year before and hurt themselves. Nobody ever talks about how horrific a contract, Grady Jarrett was. One of the worst contracts handed out. They were throwing money everywhere going into last season, I think because they really wanted it to work with Ben Johnson. So now they're making their bets on that. But I also think that their weakness is going to be a lot more clear in the front seven if they don't get 30 interceptions by, you know, randoms, like.

Nishon Wright, former Minnesota Viking, had two of them against the Vikings. I mean, and he's not even playing for them anymore. It feels to me like if Caleb Williams has some different gear that he's going to reach, he is the one that could be compared to Josh Allen of the accuracy, like taking that next step. If that doesn't happen, I'm just not sure that they're going to be a great team and they're kind of headed for a little disappointment. I don't know. Every Packers fan wants to say, well, I mean, they're regression candidates.

the Bears are, I mean, look at the commanders. They're the new commanders. Yeah, yeah. Maybe. Again, football's weird in that I think the Bears could be just as good, maybe even a little better next year, but it wouldn't show in the results. That happens a lot in the end of it. I would say that it happened with the Lions, as we just discussed.

The front seven is an issue. Can the Packers and the, you know, the Vikings, I guess, run the ball well enough to make that matter? I don't think the Packers did last year. And their offensive line was so bad the Bears beat them up in the second half of that playoff game anyways, they had issues all over the place. I also have watched the Bears long enough to just,

I just know they're going to find a way to get their hands on some passes. It's one of those organizational things. It's just kind of what they do. So I guess I give them that a little bit. I love Burden. Luther Burden's scary, the way he moves. DJ Moore, I don't think that much of. I think he's a solid player and I would take him on my team,

but I don't think that loss is huge. I guess if I'm trying to talk myself into, the bears taking a step back and my packers eclipsing them. It's well, Caleb Williams made magic in the fourth quarter, but the reason he needed to is they were behind. And I don't think he's going to raise his floor enough to play consistent enough over the first three quarters to allow, you know, the team to kind of reach cruising altitude, the way that a boat, you speed up and you kind of, you know, you smoothly move across the

water. I don't know that he has that in him. I think he might. I don't know. I guess I don't have a great feel on the bears other than I'm, I'm definitely not just counting them out as like the commanders from last year. I would be really shocked if that happened. Well, and the commanders also had Jaden Daniels get hurt and half of their team also get injured.

And sometimes it really is just that. Like we were talking about with the Packers. And that's why Dan Quinn wasn't fired is because as bad as it was, they were playing Marcus Marioata for most of the season and their defense fell apart. And there you have it. And, you know, with the bears, there I think is a proven number of coaches. Matt Lafleur is in this. category. I think Kevin O'Connell has fallen into this category already. Put it the like Mike Tomlin

touch of you're probably not ever going to be horrendous. And I think Ben Johnson might be there. Now, I don't want to go there just yet with Ben Johnson. He's only coached for one year. But I was so impressed with their offense last year. It was like, you know, that's kind of one of those coaches that's never going to let his team just be a total calamity and fall apart. And it's probably going to get the most out of the offensive side. I think that they could run the ball better if they got a better running back. I don't know where that's really coming from. I just, I think that their defense gives them a limitation here.

And it is hard not to look at the last, not the last two Super Bowls, but the last, I don't know, is it 10 and go either they had Mahomes, who also has Chris Johnson on the other side, but either they had Mahomes or they had a freaky, nasty, disgusting defensive line. And those are the only two types of teams that have won the Super Bowl, which is not a great way to evaluate teams, I understand. But that weakness, it has to get them eventually, right? I mean, in any season, just like it did last year. So, I don't know.

I look at them as a team with the potential to be very, very competitive. But I'm not sure that they're at a place yet unless they land a superstar defensive lineman that is going to be a true Super Bowl content. Well, I guess Dexter Lawrence could possibly be on the move. I know a lot of people were saying, well, Max Crosby to the Bears. I mean, it almost seemed like I was just waiting for the notification, which is weirdly why I didn't think it was going to happen. It's like, no, this is too obvious. This is too easy.

This is never how it goes. And I couldn't have predicted what came next with the Ravens and then going back to Vegas. But I guess Dexter Lawrence is out there. I also think, and you know this because you talk to so many people, smart people around the NFL. Like, it's just such a schematic league. And there are defensive. coordinators everywhere, pouring over film right now, trying to find little edges against Ben Johnson.

And likewise, you know, offensive coordinators everywhere, especially in the NFC North, looking at the bear's defense and say, okay, how can we exploit that and how can we do that? The Packers weren't miserable against the run last year, but they weren't great. You know, they were just kind of fine. And by week six, you know, the Giants, the Panthers that matched up with the Packers said, okay, well, we're just going to run at three and a half, four yards at a pop and just see if the game goes way. And it did a couple of different times. And that's how the Packers lost some games. So opposing coordinators only need to find the tiniest little edges. And what seemed like this

invincible, magical Ben Johnson offense, it doesn't come crashing down. But, you know, a 13-win year can quickly turn into a nine-win year with really not many dramatic changes. So the Bears defensive front would definitely be the thing I circle with them too. And if they draft two studs, that could change. But that would be where I start with the Bears too. Okay, Grant, pre-draft. Here's what we got. The Detroit Lions are the favorites on Fandul to win the division plus 160. Then the Packers are very close next at plus 220, Chicago plus 310, and Minnesota Vikings at plus 550. What do you think is the best bet of that group?

Well, I mean, if it's just money, I think they're all so close. Like, just give me the team with the longest odds. I wouldn't bet the Packers. God, no. And I think they're a good team. But again, they're not winning the division. There's a reason that every single NFC North team has won the division since the Packers have. It's not because the Packers have been bad.

It's because they find a way three or four times a year to just stub their toe and lose a game that they shouldn't lose. So I can't pick them to win the division just based on that personality trait. I think probably the Bears or the Vikings because I think they're up there with the Lions and I could get, you know, I could get better odds. I'm no professional gambler. I think the Vikings are a fascinating team because they have a defensive. defensive coordinator who can straight up win him games. And I think Kyler Murray and Kevin O'Connell, even if it's just for one year, could be unbelievable.

And they have this vibe where it's new. Like, I think that was an advantage of them with Darnold. It's not, it hadn't been a slog for three years. Donald shows up and they catch fire in a bottle and it's fun and it's new and it's sex. And it's just like this wave of energy that's never going to stop. So I think that potential in Minnesota is interesting too. I wouldn't bet the lions because the odds.

I just wouldn't bet the Packers because they're the Packers. So I guess take your pick with Bears. or Vikings. Grant, we could spend all the rest of the day talking about the NFC North, talking about the recent weather here in the Midwest or, you know, whatever else. But you do have a radio show to get to. So I appreciate your time and the great breakdown of the NFC North. And, you know, we'll definitely do it again soon. I do have a job, like you say, I got to go on the air in a little bit. My baseball team has lost six in a row. So I would know about that. Wouldn't know about that. It's April. So we need to have a meltdown over a what

the baseball team is doing. That's what's on the after several years of tuning out the Minnesota Twins because obviously except for there was a run where they won a bunch of games and they had some sausage or ham or something that they had in the

that's right going bad and you know whatever they thought it was helping them win and then it just you know completely collapsed after that maybe there's something to be said for the Minnesota twins. I don't know. Maybe not. That's not my podcast. Maybe that's hashtag not my podcast.

Maybe that's the sell the team t-shirts is, I don't know what's going on. I appreciate you having me always. I look forward to being in the Twin Cities and having a grain belt before too long, hopefully earlier this summer. All right. Thanks again, Grant. Appreciate it.