Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Jaguars reporter John Shipley talks Trevor Lawrence and asks Vikings questions

Episode Date: June 19, 2024

Matthew Coller is joined by SI's John Shipley for a way too early preview of Vikings at Jaguars in Week 10. Coller and Shipley also discuss Trevor Lawrence's massive new contract and what kind of a situation it puts the team in going forward. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here, and yes, we are going to give a hardcore preview of a game that will take place on November 10th, because why wouldn't we? And joining me to talk about Vikings and Jaguars on November 10th, which is week 10 of the NFL season, is one of my favorite beat reporters in the National Football League John Shipley not the John Shipley that you guys know who is from Minnesota the John Shipley who covers the Jaguars Jaguars on SI uh one of the one of my favorite guys and great when

we can have an excuse to get together I think what we did this with uh Yannick Ngakwe was the last time probably we talked so great to have you back, John. How are you, man? I'm doing good, man. I'm glad to be referenced among the other John Shippley. Every time I explain to people, well, my Twitter handle has two underscores there. I'm like, there's a guy in Minnesota, him, John Shippley. Beat me to the punch, you know. So I'm happy to be back.

Damn, man, that trade feels like a million years ago, doesn't it? It most certainly does yeah i mean at the time i guess we thought well you know the vikings are gonna get him in here extend him he's gonna be a big part of the future and then they went oh all those sack numbers not really what we expected from uh yanni kingakwe and he still gets out there and gets sacks and he's a free agent now someone will sign him he'll get six sacks and his PFF grade will be a 32. And that will be Yannick Ngakwe. Didn't exactly work out, but you have had big news in your area recently with Trevor Lawrence.

So I wanted to start off with this. The conversation about paying quarterbacks. The Vikings paid Kirk Cousins a huge amount of money, short-term contract, mostly guaranteed. It was very hard for them to work around for three years. So the Vikings move on from Kirk Cousins. They get a cheap quarterback. And then when the Jaguars signed Trevor Lawrence to 55 million a year, I just gesture at contract and say, this why the vikings did this thing however upon a little further investigation john it does seem like this will be pretty manageable for a couple years with trevor lawrence and it also feels like the discourse is why i say follow your local beat

reporter because you're not gonna get i think the uh best detailed analysis of something like this, if you watch Emmanuel Acho or something. So talk to me about this, about the reaction to Trevor Lawrence's contract, how the team's going to work around it, the whole thing. Yeah. Well, the funny thing is these discussions really started last off season. You know, it wasn't like they saw his 2023 season where they undoubtedly disappointed, you know, based on expectations. They were like, okay, you know, we've seen enough. They saw his run in 2022 to playoffs, and that was when they more or less said,

you know, okay, we've seen enough. They literally just could not actually extend him until this offseason per, you know, NFL contract rules. I mean, it's a contract that does give them a little bit of flexibility for at least the next year or so to maybe be a bit more aggressive before you have to start and really draft guys and stay away from free agency.

And sure, Bulky's tenure, he definitely likes to pretend like he's not a guy who spends a lot of money and that he just resigns all his draft picks. But in three of his four off seasons, he spent a ton of money. So they're definitely going to have to pivot now to a team that, you know, isn't doing that as much and trying to draft better and retain their own players. I mean, last year they had a 12 player draft class who,

I think only one player had a, an AV of more than, you know, one. So, and it was a right tackle who started every single game. Everybody else was, you know, simply not productive. So they're going to need to be a better drafting team because of this contract, but else was, you know, simply not productive. So they're going to need to be a better drafting team because of this contract. But it definitely, you know, once you start getting to the last years of it, like I think 2029, this cap hit is more or less like a meme number

at this point. It's like 75 million or something. So I expect them to, you know, probably rework it at some time in the next couple of years as it gets closer to those years. And there are some void years on top of it. The Jaguars have become, you know, one of those void heavy teams, you know, along with Philadelphia Eagles and really the last two off seasons.

It seems like every contract they have, you know, there's like board years on top of it. Even Gabe Davis got board years. So it is definitely a contract that it seems like it'll give them flexibility moving forward, but it was something they had already decided to do. And in my mind, you know, if you've already decided he's the guy, there's no real point in waiting a year because it gets more expensive and your answer didn't really change. So either you think he's good enough to pay or you don't.

And obviously, you know, he's not developed fully. You know, they see him as somebody who should play better moving forward. And they're betting on his potential a lot like some other teams do when they sign these big contracts. You know, when we talk about scouting quarterbacks in the draft and everybody's got their take and everything else one of the things i go back to eventually at some point in total exasperation from the whole process and i will yell we don't even know if the current quarterbacks are good we asked a hundred people if justin herbert's good and you'll probably get more say

yes than no, but there'll be enough ago. I don't know. He doesn't want anything. And the same thing goes for Trevor Lawrence, where I think that the excuses for not having the, this Peyton Manning, like a alteration of the Jaguars franchise, uh, are valid to some extent. I mean, the urban Meyer thing is most certainly real. Uh, and I'm sure that was quite an extent. I mean, the Urban Meyer thing is most certainly real. And I'm sure that was quite an experience. I remember you telling me that he like didn't know players names and stuff like that. He called James Robinson, James, the running back and called Roy Robinson, Harris, Roy Roberts for an entire year and called Adam Gostis, Alex Clancy after a game.

James, the running back is good james the running back yeah i know what position he plays i i actually kind of like it it's sort of catchy but if it's because he doesn't know the player's names so anyway you know he kicked the kicker all the different things that happened there so that was legit and then it was totally fair to look at the roster that he had go to the playoffs, get a playoff win, have a crazy comeback, all that stuff and go, Hey, this is it. This is the quarterback you're supposed to be. So then last year when everybody placed their bets on Trevor Lawrence greatness, and then those bets didn't really pay out, no matter how many times Zay Jones caught touchdowns out of the back of the end zone it's reasonable to still look at it and go i don't know if this is what it was supposed to be

and then also say is this someone that is going to be able to take you over the top when they are more expensive because even if the cap hits are reasonable they're still a hell of a lot more than jj mccarthy's is going to be for example example. Yeah, no, I think that's 100% fair. I think for the generational tab, perhaps, that Lawrence received coming out of college, whether that's fair or not, he absolutely, I think, to most people's opinions, hasn't really hit that standard yet, just based on on-field production, what they've done overall as a team.

I think that the Jaguars factor is definitely, you know, some context here. Nine and eight over the last two years, like, seems, you know, perfectly average for the Jaguars. It's two of the best seasons they've had, you know, in the last decades. And just, I think, especially from the top down, whether that's ownership or, you know, front office, they see, you know, even when maybe not playing their best, they're still mostly competitive.

I think they see that as a step in itself enough. But I do think there are plenty of reasons to think even the team thinks, okay, there needs to be more. There needs to be more this upcoming season. They've made the investments at wide receiver. There absolutely, I think, needs to be more than what you saw over the last couple you know I'd say month and a half of the last season up until then you know he wasn't lightly on fire you know he wasn't in the running for MVP or anything but he

was coming off some of his you know best games he had a great showdown with CJ Stroud at Houston and week 12 that was I thought one of the more like underrated pure NFL games of the year you know just two quarterbacks going back and forth. Then before he got hurt against the Cincinnati Bengals, he was having one of the better games, again, of his season. Obviously, over those last six games, not at all what

they needed out of the quarterback position. He has to carry that along with the rest of the team. I think it's also fair to criticize it and expect more out of him. When you're paying a guy like that, there has to be more. So I think they're paying him for what he needs to become, not necessarily for what he's always been. And I'm certain that that injury probably should not have come back from it

as fast as he did. And that likely impacted the way that his season ended. And I've mentioned it a few times, but the number of passes that should have been caught that were not caught this has been well chronicled by the data people that he has suffered some of the most drops in the nfl and we'll get to that with how they're trying to resolve that issue although i'm not so certain that gabe davis is the guy to do that but i guess we'll see it when it comes to lawrence i think if i was just picking quarterbacks to start a franchise with even

contract considered, he would still be pretty high on the list. He would not be Mahomes and probably Stroud has already gone ahead of him because you've got a lot of rookie quarterback contract there. But when you contextualize, I mean, even someone like Tua in Miami, his first couple of years are just miserable. And then they build the team, they get the right coach. And all of a sudden, you know, he, he takes off like that. I think most quarterbacks are so impacted by what's around them that when you have someone like Trevor Lawrence, the expectation is like, Hey buddy, you're supposed to just take the team. You're, you're supposed to be my homes. So if you don't do it and you just go nine and eight, when your team is kind of blah, then that's not just

not good enough. And yet I watch the talent that he has and think this still should be a top-notch quarterback. Yet you're paying him at a time. You have to believe in something you haven't truly seen yet. It's such an interesting place to be. And I can't decide whether it's a great place to be because if the team gets a little better this could be a super bowl contender because of the quarterback or if it's a bad place to be because if that step never comes welcome to my life from 2018 to 2023 john i think i know 23 yeah i think kirk's honestly a perfect example of it and even you know jared go example, what teams are selling themselves on, if they think these guys that they can at least compete with

and win with and make annual playoff trips with, they're willing to invest in them. They're not necessarily, I think, expecting them to be Patrick Mahomes, even though I had somebody tweet at me right after he signed saying, can you make it make sense to me that he makes more money in Patrick Mahomes annually? And no, you know, it doesn't make sense. So that's not, you know, how the market works. I think you're seeing teams kind of, I think Kirk level quarterbacks and above teams are willing to marry to

themselves. And Trevor Lawrence, you know, isn't top five quarterback yet or anything like that. But I do think he is in that range where it may be a little above you know the Kirk level so he falls in that range of contracts they're going to be a few quarterbacks in these next couple years who you know probably get the same type of deal I mean Tua even can I think be considered one of them it's a pure hypothetical but I've when comparing the two you know if I think about Trevor Lawrence and Tua's offense yeah I that's probably maybe you know offensive play of the year type numbers you know Tua's offense yeah I that's probably maybe you know offensive play of the year type numbers you know Tua's with the Jaguars and I feel like I'm watching

left-handed Gardner Minshew you know for for the most part so obviously not the quarterback he was touted to be I think but I also think a lot of context has to be added into factors beyond his control you know with the Jaguars how the roster has been constructed etc I mean their number two receiver the last couple years is now receiver four or five in Arizona to you know put some things in the you know context in terms of the weapons he's at that's the thing I'm always trying to figure out how much credence do we give to hey his coaching wasn't that good we're going through this with Sam Darnold his coaching wasn't that good we're going through this with sam darnold his coaching wasn't that good the players around him weren't that good how much of the stats are that how much are they of this guy has some fundamental flaws and with kirk cousins the left guard became the meme here where it was just well if they only had you know will shields out there at left guard then they

would have been great uh but or that you know he would have gotten him to the super bowl or if it was Superbowl or if it was only the defense, or if it was only, if it was only, if it was only, and if you have to say that for six straight years, then it probably was the quarterback. Wasn't at a talent level that could take you over the top to get to a Superbowl. So how do you distribute this? How do you, how do you deal with like, what, what's, what is it? Is there a fatal flaw here in his game that has caused this? Can it be worked out? Can it not be worked out? Because with cousins, the fatal flaw was athleticism and aggressiveness, and you are never going to make him more athletic.

That's neither of those things seem to be a Trevor Lawrence issue, but is there something in his game that holds him back from being at that next, next level that his athleticism, his arm talent, all those things would indicate when he was coming out of the draft. For the record, I think it's a great bit that the Jaguars projected left guard was a Vikings cast away left guard and Ezra Cleveland. So it's nice to see the baton has been tossed. It will take probably until about week three or four for fans to say Ezra Cleveland and Press Taylor are the reasons that the offense isn't really going.

I do think Lawrence has some flaws that carried over. I think even since it's college days, you know, he's a lot of times, you know, I'd say overly relies on his athleticism, his own talent. You know, you see the advanced metrics and PFF grades on his deep passing. And that's one part of the sword. The other part of it is, you know, he can be reckless at times, you know, whether with decision-making, whether with ball security inside or outside the pocket, outside the pocket, you know,

and scrambles and stuff has been an issue for him. And sometimes I think, you know, trying to do too much, you know, and I think especially the situational awareness has, you know, been an issue. I think back to week 18 when, you know, he called his own number and tried to get the ball over the top of the end zone against Tennessee Titans on fourth down, didn't get it. They didn't run the call play. You know, he had just decided to do it, but in that situation, you know, they were about a yard and a half off. It wasn't like the other times they've done it, just stuff like that. Early down interceptions in the red zone. He saw issues with that last year.

That's something that's kind of plagued him, you know, throughout the last couple of years. So there are definitely areas of his game that he needs to sharpen up and areas, you know, why, like you said, guys like CK Stroud, you know, probably already passed him. You had to ask me to pick one today to build around. It would be Stroud because of, like you said, you know, the years of contract as opposed to, you know,

Lawrence just now getting paid there's an erratic nature to his game that i am at times so wowed like there was that comeback game he had what two years ago just like oh my gosh everything the guy throws is magic and then other times there's a like skittishness or a scrap like i gotta scramble i'm not seeing it something's not right there and I guess that connects to like is it you know the coaching is it the receivers or is that just part of his game I feel like I still saw that in Clemson but in college you could just do all that stuff and it works yeah he's got more golden retriever to him and people like to admit I feel like people projected him out of college as this like pro typical pro

style, you know, quarterback, like the next, like Peyton Manning. And when really, you know, he's more in the build of like those uber athletic quarterbacks who are

maybe raw, you know, in some areas. Now he's a lot more athletic that, you know, some people I think might even still, you know, give him credit for,

you know, that's probably his best trait is still, you know, his creativity and what he does on the move, but it's also what hurts them, you know, that's probably his best trait is still, you know, his creativity and what he does on the move, but it's also what hurts them, you know, at a lot of times. So I think, you know, turnovers and situational awareness specifically are the two things that, you know, moving into next year, they have to see him take a step in.

Because like you said, if you're entering several years of maybe it was this, maybe it was that, you know, eventually in the NFL, you simply just have to produce. So how good are the weapons uh I mean Evan Ingram catches eight yard passes and a lot of them and that that is another thing with with Lawrence that's sort of this conundrum is you're talking about his erratic nature how he likes to run around and yet a lot of times he'll be throwing like four yard throws and you go you all right buddy like do I need to shut it down and restart it? Uh, and then he'll average six yards and attempt and you go, uh, I'm not sure

what's happening here, but you know, I, okay. Ingram, he's a decent player. Thomas is a very exciting prospect. Christian Kirk. Uh, I think that the contract that everyone went absolutely berserk over for Christian Kirk has been fine for them because receivers are extremely expensive, but I still don't look at this. And, and maybe this is just being in Minnesota where if you have anything less than Randy Moss, Chris Carter, and Jake Reed, you're like, nah, you suck. But I think it's an okay group, but it doesn't look like, wow, this is going to take them to the next level unless Brian Thomas is fantastic right away. Yeah, no, it definitely is. I think, like you said, probably an okay group at this moment.

I mean, still the best receiver Lawrence has ever had in his career is now playing for a divisional rival. Even if Calvin Ridley maybe didn't meet every single expectation, he was still a 1,000-yard receiver coming off not playing for a couple years. So I do think that their offense got hurt, you know, to a degree by losing Ridley. Bringing in Gabe Davis and, you know, Brian Thomas, as opposed to losing Ridley and Zay Jones, I think they lost the best receiver. They also, I think, replaced the worst receiver of the four in Zay Jones.

So I think some middle ground can probably be found there. And I think if you're looking for any optimism, you know, in terms of the pieces they have brought in, like you said, Gabe Davis isn't anybody who's going to solve your team's drop issues. Exactly. But if there is any optimism, it's that, you know, Lawrence's best style of play compliments, both of those guys, you know, big receivers who win downfield. But like you said, there've been so many times in the Doug Peterson press Taylor offense where they've been

that dink and dunk team where you know like you said Evan Ingram or Christian Kerr will catch a six or seven yard pass over and over and over again so the Jaguars have at different times you know kind of unleashed Lawrence but but other times, you know, they played it safe on offense. And I think, especially when turnovers hit them, you know, at some point during the season, if they ever get into a turnover slump, they've, I think I've shown to go towards that direction, just dear God, get the ball out of his hand, you know, try to eliminate the chances of a turnover. I also don't think last year they trusted their offensive line very much for a variety of reasons. They had, I think, nine different combinations of starting, you know,

left tackles and left guards during the season. So they turned to a quick pass again because of that a lot. But if there is any hope, I think for this offense, it's one that, you know, maybe Thomas and Davis fit him more than guys like Zay Jones and perhaps even, you know, fit wise, then Calvert Ridley, even if he's clearly the best of the four. And then two, I think there's some optimism that they can produce with Lawrence. That's that most of the receivers he's played with have had their career years under him. You know, Kirk and Ingram, obviously Zay Jones,

Calvin Ridley had a 1000 yard season with him. Jamal Agnew looked like a semi capable NFL receiver last couple of years, even LeBron Treadwell got like 400 yards. And I don't think has played a game since then. So if there's one thing Lawrence has been able to do, it's boost the production of his receivers, even if it hasn't seen his production take big leaps. Teams keep signing Laquan Treadwell. It just continues to happen. If you're a first round pick you got a job for life someone will always bring you in and be like hey you know what if there's more there than whatever to end there there usually isn't when it comes to Doug Peterson

I want to ask you a question that a beat reporter would hate which is how many coaches would you take before Doug Peterson because yeah I think his, I'll give you a second to think about it. His reputation is naturally that, uh, you know, he won the Super bowl and was really great in that season that they won the Superbowl with Nick Foles. He gets credit for that forever, but the league changes quick. Frank Reich at one point looked like a great coach. Then suddenly didn't look like a great coach. Where does Peterson stand in all that? Would you say that he is still ahead of the game

or maybe needs to update some things? Or how do you feel? I do think last year absolutely showed that they do need to update some things. It seemed like they felt like they could run back the exact same cast, exact same offense as it did the previous year. No need to make major tweaks to it because it just worked a year ago. And then you fast forward to 2023 and that same offense they ran, just in terms of pure efficiency numbers,

took a major step back pretty much every offensive metric. So I do think that he's a guy who him and you know press taylor who have kind of been tied at the hip since uh you know the philadelphia days and it looks like we'll continue to be tied to the hip until the end of days on for whatever reason press taylor you know is his guy and we'll follow him everywhere and it's those two construct the offense it does seem like coming off last year, they need to update some things I'd say like outside of the top 10, he's not in that elite tier,

but I'd say, you know, probably somewhere in that, you know, 13, 14 range. Like obviously you're taking the Mike Tomlins, the John Harbaugh's even maybe,

you know, potentially Jim Harbaugh, the Andy reads over him. But I do think that he has shown that he can at least raise the floor of a team, which, again, for the Jaguars, the bar has not been high for some time. And so far he has cleared that very low bar. But I do think now expectations are starting to rise more and more, like, okay, be better than the 9-8 record.

But I do think there are a lot worse coaches you can probably have than him. him yeah and we're talking about some of this stuff as if it was a disaster and they went through a lot and still came out with a winning record last year so it's not like it was a complete mess but i think that with the jaguars the big question is can you go from there to anywhere else a friend of mine in the league likes to say it's very easy to go from two wins to eight wins. It's not that easy to go from eight wins to 12 wins. So to go from that middle, and we saw it here, to being a team that's legitimately competing for the Super Bowl. And I've wondered if Doug Peterson still has that in him. Or if every time a team has a bunch of injuries or the receivers aren't good or something, we just go idiot coach. Am I right? And, uh, I try to weigh, uh, how much belongs in each

category, but I think that raising the floor is a good way to describe Doug Peterson, where you have a professional coach before. And so you're guaranteed. I think what you're guaranteed is if the players are good and they stay healthy, you're going to be there at the end of the day. And you can't control some of the other stuff like who gets hurt. Yeah, no, I think that's definitely a good way to put it. You know, there are definitely, you know, areas of his tenure the last two years that I think both can be admired and both can be, you know, kind of questioned. I mean, anytime you've loaded a divisional lead after starting eight and three, you know, you have to bear, you know,

some blame in that no matter how injured the players might've been. I mean, they, they played Joe Flacco and Jake Browning, you know, in that stretch, you know, and lost both those games. I think the big thing with the Jaguars last year is they were expected to take that step, you know, after going nine and eight the year before and they were expected to take that step, you know, after going nine and eight the year before, and they were expected to hang with the top teams they played. But you look at the top teams they played last year, you know,

they lost to the chiefs. They lost to the Ravens. They lost to the 49ers didn't even compete really with the 49ers. The chiefs game was not nearly as close as the score may have indicated. I think a lot of games last year showed that the Jaguars would still far away. Now they've made a lot of, I'd say, veteran additions this year. They've gotten rid of some guys maybe from past holdovers from past tenures. There's been more roster overhaul this year than I think maybe people even expected. So maybe they hope that culture kind of shifts where they actually feel like they're one of the NFL's top teams.

Because it definitely felt like a confidence issue at the second half of last year, as things started taking a skid, you know, you could see each game that they were losing a little bit more and a little bit more confidence to the point where the only team they could compete with was the Carolina Panthers, which I mean, they were able to beat them with CJ Beathard. So that shows you the state of the Panthers were at last year. Yeah, that's true. It was, I mean, when they started the season the way they did,

I think everyone went, this is what we expected. Like that's, it's kind of just the natural progression. You tank, you have kind of a middle season like Detroit did and then contender. And then you just, then the easy button happens. And then you come up short in the playoffs and everyone hates you and talks about how much you let them down. Like this is football. And just, we go around and around forever. And for them not to take that step, that puts you a little bit in limbo, I think. And especially with the division. So here's a question I like to ask guests of the NFC North of, if you were looking out

a year to 2025, say, what do you think the order of the division would be because what you have is high draft pick quarterbacks teams that have rebuilt and now look like potential behemoths of course in Houston but even Indianapolis if Anthony Richardson is something they could win eight games with Gardner Minshew last year like they could take a big step forward and then Tennessee I don't know there's just vibes in Tennessee at the moment still if will levis is a thing i don't think he will be but if he is then all of a sudden you have all these quarterbacks in the division which team is the best positioned over the next few years do you think i mean that's a great question i think right now you gotta think houston is the best position just because they have so many of their stars, you know, Jaguars,

I'd say Trevor Lawrence and Josh Allen Texans have CJ Stroud and Will Anderson, two really good duos. The Texans are on rookie contracts. Well, the Jaguars just handed out the two biggest contracts in franchise history, you know, to their pair. So the Texans probably have a lot more flexibility. I think the Colts are a fascinating, you know, answer potentially for number two, obviously a lot of it relies on if Anthony Richardson hits or not. I thought, you

know, he was solid last year when he played. The obvious question is, how can he avoid injuries, especially with his play style? And he played the Jaguars in his NFL debut. And there were several times he took, you know, some of the harder hits I've seen an NFL quarterback taking a game like two or three different hits. And he was doing that off the rip. So it's, you know, some of the harder hits I've seen an NFL quarterback taking a game, like two or three different hits, and he was doing that off the rip. So it's, you know, maybe, you know, if he can respond to that and change up his play style, I think that he can potentially lift them to be that playoff type of continuing team. So see them in the Jaguars, kind of interchangeable as two and three. Maybe put the Jaguars in front of them because, you know, the quarterback,

while not elite, has at least shown you that he can get you to playoff capability and I'm with you on the Titans I think Will Levis you know definitely flash some things last year like I think he's better than say like a Desmond Ritter but I'm also if I'm a coach or a front office executive I'm not hitching my wagon to Will Levis he does far too many Will Levis like things to make me feel as confident in that as the titans seem to be but like you said titans seem like they're yeah they're just vibing that right now this entire season for them feels like they're trying to figure out if one dude can singularly play and everything else that happens around them is you know gravy yeah i will be interested in it because the vikings had an opportunity to draft will levis and uh I know for certain, well, not because just because they didn't

pick him, but they, that was not their guy. They looked at him and said, nah, we don't view him as our franchise quarterback. So the fact that Titan said, maybe we do, or maybe we just pick every guy that drops to see what happens and we'll be right. One of these times, but that, yeah, that franchise doesn't seem like their roster is anywhere close and their coach has to prove himself as well, but everybody else, it is kind of a three person race. So I want to ask you about one other thing. And then I got a fun thing for you, um, on the defensive side. And I refuse to be the show.

That's like, let's talk about the office. Let's talk about the defense. And then you just, what, one of the worst podcasts or interview questions is just like, so what do you see it on the defensive side there john and you're like did you think about this for two seconds before you had me on uh so i'm gonna ask a very specific question did you just attract top draft picks that people like to argue about because trayvon walker it seems now i'm seeing the debates is he he actually good? Is he not good? Well, he got some sacks last year.

But the PFF thing, so like good, not good? Should the Vikings be scared? I mean, I think the Jaguars definitely have pieces. And I think when you look at the defensive staff they brought in, you can look at it as a potential upgrade over the last staff and scheme they had, just in terms of Ryan Nielsen being more of an established defense coordinator than Mike Caldwell was. Walker, I think, wasn't as good as 10 sacks would say.

I think pass rush win rate was, I want to say, in the 50s of qualifying. Edge rusher, something along those lines. He wasn't like Josh Allen, who was consistently not just getting sacks but also getting pressures. So I think Chavon is probably better than the public consensus, which is people kind of label that pick immediately as, oh, wow, we wouldn't have done that. So he's probably a little bit better than people thought of that. But, I mean, you still debate today, you know, him and Aiden Hutchinson. Aiden Hutchinson, despite some of his own flaws, you know, not as good in the run as Walker,

maybe he's still significantly better pass rusher by pretty much every pass rush metric. So I definitely think still the wrong pick, but awful player. No elite player. I don't think so either. You know, not as good as the 10 sacks he showed last year, but I mean, the fact that he showed any life last year, I do think is at least a positive because he definitely looked rough at points as a rookie all right something that we talk about all the time every single person who covers an nfl team is guys taking the next step and so you get from the like hey if he takes that next step and this is like the theme of the podcast can the guy take the next step there are examples of year three past rushers rashaun gary is maybe one of those who were thought to be

raw freakish athletes that finally hit their stride i forget i guess uh with daniel hunter maybe it was probably a little faster than that maybe year two but it wasn't until year four that he was a double digit sack guy really consistently because Cause even in 2017, he had like eight and a half and then he made that full progress. And there might be a comparison there because if Daniel Hunter was coming out in the draft, now they'd take them in the top 10 for sure. Considering what he is as an athlete, how do you feel about him taking that next step? Because I think that's a swing to the entire defense. If he gets 10 sacks, but as an all around pressure machine to go along with Josh Allen,

then you're talking about something that's very dangerous there. Yeah, no, the new Hunter, that name center shiver of my spine. I can't tell you how many different stories I had to write about the new Hunter rumors and the Jacksonville Jaguars. I,

it was the sweetest irony that he ended up signing with a complete division rival in the Jaguars, seemingly would never even in the race to sign him. I mean, I think there are maybe signs that maybe Walker can be that type of player. My comp for him coming out was Rashawn Gary because Rashawn Gary even played inside at times for Michigan. You know, he was seen as kind of a tweener coming out just like Walker was. Walker didn't really play edge truly until he got to Jacksonville.

You know, he went from playing essentially a five-technique slash defensive tackle role to coming into the NFL and learning three-four outside linebacker for the first time in his life. So you definitely saw learning adjustment to that. I think there are some traits from him that you can see. You know, all the traits that obviously made Trent Baalke salivate for him at number one overall, the length, the explosion, it's there. I would say one thing the Jaguars maybe haven't done is move him around as

much as people initially thought they would, you know, especially he was an interior player coming out. He was talked about as a mismatch. You can use that the formations. And I think he played maybe 30 snaps inside over the last few years so they've already talked about that kind of changing under ryan nielsen ryan nielsen's obviously a defensive line focused guy uh that's how he you know made his bread and butter you know he was the guy at nc state when they put out four different defensive linemen in one draft so i

think he's going to be more or less his pet project because they need him to take that step forward. And maybe if they utilize him differently, maybe you do see him take that step, but he's also somebody who, you know, while you've seen it happen before, I'm still not willing to bet on him passing,

like say a guy like Aiden Hutchinson this year. I just, with him, I think you just have to wait and see it because while he had a great into the season last year, in terms of the sacks, his pressure rate still never really hit that consistent rate. He never really has in his career. So I think until that happens, I'm still going to be a little bit wait and see on him.

Yeah, I think that's fair. And with someone like Trayvon Walker, he didn't draft himself there. And what he needed to get from point A to point B is not what you normally expect from that draft slot. You expect be Miles Garrett and be Miles Garrett today. And that is just probably not who he's going to be. That decision may end up haunting them a bit with Aiden Hutchinson being the player he is. But that always ends up resting on the shoulders of the player. Oh, you should have drafted somebody else, whatever the the Sam Bowie instead of Michael Jordan type of thing or whatever,

you know, that's just, it's going to rest over him. And I think that's, that's difficult for a player when they know everyone's saying, Hey, they should have drafted somebody else. Any player who says they don't see that stuff is,

is not telling you the truth. Yeah, no, absolutely. And I would have been fascinated to see where Walker would have got drafted if the Jags had taken Hutchinson. Because I do think maybe the narrative had shifted too far on him when he was drafted.

People were making it sound like, oh, a late first-round pick is going, number one overall. When in reality, it seems like he would have gone fairly early. I'm interested to see maybe if he even would have gone, say, number two to Detroit. But it does seem like narratives have really kind of taken the shape of his first two years. Yeah, totally. I remember looking at him and seeing maybe top 10, top 12, something like that.

But to have someone jump all the way to one, it's so notable. It's such a recognizable pick. So that's kind of something he has to deal with beyond just trying to become a good player. What Vikings questions do you have for me? What do you want to know? Who's starting week one? Oh, Sam Darnold. Sam Darnold?

I think so. Who's starting week 10? That's a harder question. That is a much harder question because week 10 against the Jaguars, we will know how they dealt with the start of their season. And if you have looked at the Viking schedule, as we were both trying to find it on the internet before the show,

it's not easy. You got the Texans there, you got the Packers there, you know, there's a buy after London and then they played Detroit. There's a chance that if Sam Darnold doesn't play well, it looks pretty nasty by those first few weeks because this is not a complete team. It's not a Super Bowl team that could just drag bad quarterback play to a bunch of wins. They're going to need Sam Darnold to be very good right out of the gate, or they're going to get behind in the season, which could result in JJ McCarthy. I've looked at coming out of the bye against Detroit as a good time, potentially for McCarthy, if they're like a two win team or something. But then we're also trying

to weigh this. You shouldn't just play McCarthy because Darnold's not good. You should play McCarthy when he's ready to play. Instead, week 10 could very well be Sam Darnold. There's also a universe. And maybe you've heard this one before with Blake Bortles or whatever. But it is plausible that if you give a very talented top draft pick, Justin Jefferson, Jordan Addison, these tackles, this coaching staff, there's more there than there's ever been there before. And with Brian Flores' defense, they could win some games. So if they're like a 500 team when they're traveling down to Jacksonville

and I've been there for three days already playing golf, which is my plan, by the way, then I think it could be Sam Darnold still. I really think they want to take this super slow with J.J. McCart. Yeah, and I think if you ask the Jaguars how they handled Blake Bortles, they probably regret playing him as early as they did. I remember it was such good gaslighting. They said they picked him and they would take him slow. You know, he would develop behind Chad Henney of all quarterbacks

to develop behind. And that lasted about two and a half games until he got inserted into a game where they were up by 30, down by 30 points. And they never, you know, obviously looked back. Okay. My next question would be, what was your take on the draft night trade at Dallas, Minnesota? My apologies. Ended up moving up for Dallas Turner.

The Jaguars, you know, one of the most unlikely friendships, I think, in the NFL. Trent Baalke and Quesi actually go way back, you know, to early San Francisco days. It seemed like, you know, Trent always willing to do business with Quesi. And he had high compliments, you know, of him after the first night of the draft just for him and, you know Trent always willing to do business with Wesley and he he had high compliments you know of him after the first night of the draft just for him and you know the kind of front office

you know executive that he is what was your take on the trade I think the Jaguars obviously you know they claim they were going to take Brian Thomas at 17 as every team does after they trade down we'll never know but they obviously I think see it as a positive because they operate on next year's time a lot of times they're not a front office that feels very much pressure so they're obviously always looking toward you know next year if they can what was your take on it so my thing is that i am a big fan as you know of analytics data and uh draft charts and all those things but i think that everything with those types of numbers requires context. A player like Dallas Turner, who is projected as a top 10 pick, but falls because there's six

quarterbacks. So he didn't fall that far with actual position players, but gets pushed down to his draft slot because of six quarterbacks. Do we adjust the draft charts for that or not? Because quarterbacks have so much more value, charts for that or not? Because quarterbacks have so much more value. They break the chart, right? So there is that also the fit with Brian Flores. If I was to go into Madden and try to build a player six foot three to 40 with a four, four and a 40 inch vertical and played for Saban and lined up in different places and sack the bejesus out of quarterbacks like crazy in college had the production, the combine that like every single box is checked.

And the other thing is too, that if you add one more pass rusher to this thing with Jonathan Grenard, who's only, I think 26, 27, he could be here for years. You create this pass rush duo, and then the foundation is there to build the rest of the parts through free agency. But you know what you can't get in free agency? Hey, how many articles did you see last year where people were like, 10 teams who should sign Josh Allen?

And the answer was, nobody's fricking signing Josh Allen. He's staying there. And that's what mostly happens. You know why? Because they're hard to get and they're super good. And your value difference between a rookie contract and a veteran contract with edge rusher is darn near what it is for a quarterback at this point when you're talking about an elite edge rusher so that surplus value matters so i looked at it as you really have to peel back the

layers of this rather than just saying well well, they gave up a lot. Like, well, they did give up a lot, but if it works, you have 30 million in surplus value for a guy who is a flawless fit for your defensive coordinator. So I kind of look at it similar to the Texans where sometimes like for Will Anderson, you just got to go for it. And if it fails, it fails, but if it succeeds, it's going to be really good. That's how I looked at it. And not many people, I think a lot of people who initially disliked the Will Anderson trade would probably tell you they still disliked it. But I mean, if you're looking at the Texans trajectory right now, I mean, do you care at all about, you know, those picks? I mean,

he's obviously a star player. One of the most amazing bits of my time covering the Jaguars is seeing Trent Palky slowly become like semi- semi analytically pilled. He said at one of his press conferences before the draft, he was like, the analytics will tell you like to never trade up. And you know, it just seems like, you know, he's somebody who in the moonlight stages of his career has now, you know, kind of seen the light on it and he's trying to make his unlikely relationship with it work out. Yeah, that's interesting. And I mean, I really think that that was a trade that just worked out for everybody. It's like the Jaguars need more pieces and more picks.

And the Vikings badly need that game-changing edge rusher that they haven't. Well, they had in Daniel Hunter, but they haven't had a duo since Everson Griffin was here and really at his best in 2017. And with Flores, the thing is, too, if you have a player who can move around, who's versatile, could his best in 2017. And with Flores, the thing is too, if you have a player who can move around, who's versatile, could drop back your coverage, Flores compared him to Dante Hightower. And you're like, if that's any version of what the guy becomes, that's going to be a huge impact player for them. So, you know, it's one of those things where we will absolutely judge it on the results rather than, I think, the people who say it wasn't good process, aren't looking at maybe the bigger picture of where this defense is.

So anyway, before I let you go, John here's what I want to do. I want to give you a former Jaguars quarterback, and I want you to tell me where you think that quarterback ranks all time in passing yards in franchise history history because this list of quarterbacks is hilarious it is one of the funniest lists it's not as funny as the jets but it's pretty funny so it's it's quite bad so i was talking about like the jags quarterback history in the context of the trevor lawrence deal and somebody replied to me like, well, imagine being the Bears. And I was like, Jay Cutler would probably be in that running for best quarterback ever. And Rex Grossman, as bad as he was,

is probably a top five. It's a pretty good list. It's quite a bit. Right. Mark Brunel, obviously the grand champ of all Jacksonville Jaguars quarterbacking. Where do you think Quinn Gray ranks all time in Jaguars quarterbacking where do you think quinn gray ranks all time in jaguars passing history just going off yards quinn gray ninth what you nailed it that's right

a top yes because i laughed out loud when i was looking at this before the show top 10 jaguars quarterback ever qu Quinn Gray with 1,252 yards. 12 touchdowns, five picks. Not terrible for Quinn Gray. Good for you, pal. How about, oh, say, go ahead. I want to say it's Mark Brunel. Then is it Blake Bortles or Byron Lefkowitz at number two?

No, David Garrard. No, it's David Garrard number two. Blake Bortles at three. It's Bortles at two. board it's portals at two okay portals are two gerrard at three yes uh lawrence at four yes left wedge at five yep you said wait gray's at nine uh where's rob johnson in the top 10 rob johnson is 20th with two, two games and one start, but that start,

you know, this, that start resulted in the Buffalo bills trading a first round pick for him. And then the owner becoming so obsessed with him that they benched Doug Flutie for a playoff game because Doug, because Rob Johnson had had a good week 17. So a great position in history. I was going to get to rob johnson also another former

bill quarterback trent edwards yeah it's a jaguar where's he right uh that's a good question let's go 12th ahead of josh mccown and somewhere after nick fools okay you remembered way more trent edwards than there actually was he started one game and threw for 280 yards and three picks and he's 21st. How about this though? How about this? The Vikings played against, was it Jake Luton who started that game?

Or was it, no, Mike Lennon. It was Mike Lennon. So where does, and Mike Lennon tried to scramble and Jordan Brailford, who was a Viking player, stripped him as he was trying to run. And it looked like a giraffe. So where does Mike Glennon rank in his 0-5 starts? That was quietly a wild game.

Honestly. It actually was very entertaining. It was. They had a couple games like that They went down to the wire with Green Bay at Lambeau With Jake Lewton at quarterback or something All the different scenarios where they could have lost out On Trevor Lawrence because of Jake Lewton

Gardner Minshew Mike Glennon That also feels like ages ago I'd say Glennon If Edwards is like 20 And Glennon started 5 games Glennon's probably let's go 14 top 10 jaguars passer in history number 10 mike glennon that's insane what a time

uh i'll give you two more cody kessler who uh when the Jaguars had joint practices with the Vikings and I think 2018, I think it was 18, 18 or 19. Uh, I remember watching Cody Kessler throw and going, this, this guy's he's like on the team. And, uh, that's my break. And he was much better than Blake Bortles. And that was my takeaway in that practice. I was like, is this a, it's like a camp body or no, he's on the team. He could actually play. Okay. Okay. God.

I want to say he started. Do you start what? Three games? Four games. Four games. Okay. It's kind of a cheat to tell you how many games they started, but yes. I'll go 11.

He is 14th just behind Jaguars legend, foals ah there we go yeah okay last one last one uh do i go i'll go with uh i believe this is a former viking did jay fiedler play here he did right yeah he played here okay former viking jay fiedler 28th that's a good guess but no he threw for 656 yards 16th on the list ahead of cj bethard ahead of luke mccown jake luton and another viking todd bauman who had a quick run there in jacksonville what a magical magical list of that makes me realize i said josh mccown earlier it was definitely luke mccown luke mccown yes the ben jock one is alec baldwin said josh mccown earlier it was definitely luke mccown luke mccown yes the ben baldwin is alec baldwin yeah josh mccown is here and he is not ben david baldwin yeah no absolutely for instance yeah no i i the jaguars like complete like

era of quarterbacks from like post gerrard up Trevor Lawrence. It's just the complete, it's up there with, you know, the Browns. I think of recent times as the most recent, you know, funniest list of quarterbacks is the road to Lawrence. And it was just absolutely impeccable in terms of the different swings that took on quarterbacks. Gabbert, I'll never, you know, forget doing a story on the night that drafted him. Jack Del Rio had no idea

that they were drafting him was getting a plate of food yeah from catering and saw on the tv jaguars had traded up the draft playing gabbard and that obviously set up a great great relationship oh man that's great yeah i believe he started this 2016 game against the Vikings and, um, didn't go so good. Did not go so good. So anyway, well, the crossovers are always funny and great to get together with you. Uh, Jacksonville version, John Shipley, it needs like parentheses, not Minnesota, John Shipley that everybody knows. So, uh, great stuff, man. And, uh, look, there's a game in, is that about in about four months, four and a half. We'll do it again before then.

It'll be fresh. We'll have the same conversation. Only we'll know who's starting. So I really do appreciate it. People should follow you on Twitter at whatever version of John Shipley looks like it's a Jaguars reporter. And you're a great follow. I really enjoy your work.

And hopefully we'll do it again soon, man. I appreciate you having me on, my friend.