Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Jake Liscow talks about how the Bengals escaped the middle

Episode Date: June 28, 2023

Bengals podcaster Jake Liscow talks with Matthew Coller about how Cincinnati went from the Andy Dalton to the Joe Burrow era. He discusses the similarities between the Dalton Bengals and current Vikings and what makes Joe Burrow so dangerous and whether the Bengals should be the favorite for the Super Bowl. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Purple Insider is presented by Oakley. Express yourself. Build a look that's made for you. When you wear Oakley, there really is more than meets the eye. Try it for yourself. Oakley is not only the best looking, but the best quality. So head on over to oakley.com for more information today. Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matt McCollough here and returning to the show for the second time, I believe. Jake Lisco covers the Cincinnati Bengals for the Locked on Bengals podcast to continue our series at looking at random Minnesota Vikings opponents. Jake, great to have you back on the show, man. What's up?

I love the premise. Great to be back. Random Minnesota Vikings opponents, so really good stuff. Good day, though, to have a locked-on Bengals host on the show because we just got featured on the Colin Coward show, apparently, so that's kind of neat. Good day for us. How did that happen? Did you have some hot take or something? No, we had Brian Callahan on the show. We chatted with him and they pulled some burrow quote from Callahan and, you know, we'll take the publicity. Yeah. Very cool.

So what I want to talk to you about is of course, a little bit about the matchup because we can really preview a matchup. That's going to happen in like the late part of the season right now. That's what's great about June. But really what's interesting to me about Cincinnati is the correlation, I guess, between where the Vikings are now and where Cincinnati was once upon a time with Andy Dalton. And I'd love you to take me back into the Andy Dalton era. And the difference is that Marvin Lewis took Cincinnati kind of all the way through that until the very, very end.

And then it went totally downhill under Zach Taylor, whereas the Vikings had this big jump up last year in wins, getting to 13 wins, winning the division and so forth. But I feel like there's still a lot of similarities between kind of what happened in 2015 with Cincinnati, where it was Andy Dalton's best year, probably their best shot to win a Super Bowl with Dalton. There was the injury, but still first round out in the playoffs. I'm sure Bengals fans remember how that happened against Pittsburgh in pretty tragic fashion. Two franchises that have a lot of that, by the way, coming real close to Super Bowls. But during the Andy Dalton era, I wondered what the feeling was because it seems like there were times where they believed that they were legitimate

Super Bowl contenders going into seasons. It never truly materialized. And they kind of ended up resting in this 500 type of spot and were only able to break out of it with the tank. I don't think the Vikings want a tank, but I do wonder what they can learn from what the Bengals went through with Andy Dalton. Never go into a draft with the Marvin Lewis quote, which I don't have exactly,

but the paraphrase is, we're open to drafting every position except for quarterback. Don't ever say that. Don't ever think that if your quarterback is not one of the top three to five quarterbacks in the NFL. You should always be open to that, especially when you're drafting early. And I think the Bengals were drafting early when they decided, or Marvin Lewis decided, we're not drafting a quarterback this year. And they should not have shut themselves off from that possibility. I think that that is certainly a point of emphasis for any team that finds themselves in a similar situation.

And there are similarities. Like you said, there's a lot of talent on the Minnesota roster. There's a great wide receiver. There was a really good running game we'll see how that goes this year i suppose with the change of running back although the fungibility of running back is a whole topic unto itself that i'm sure you've covered in significant detail but there are some big pretty big differences too and one of the big differences you mentioned that marvin lewis was there the whole time and that's true but in 2015 when the Bengals had their best year offensively Andy Dalton had his best year all this stuff

Hugh Jackson whatever you think of him as a head coach was the offensive coordinator that year and I think that was his only year or final year of offensive coordinating for the Bengals and they never really figured it out on offense after that so they had this great year a lot of ingenuity that year this is where they're like splitting out their tackles into bunches and they're going three line men with I wish I could remember what they called it but they they put their tackles out wide they're doing stuff like that Andy Dalton's completing more passes than ever. He actually took a bit of a step that year too, in terms of not just statistics,

but like how he was playing stylistically in terms of extending plays a little bit more than he had, but he's still Andy Dalton. He got hurt that year too. I mean, I think there's no way they lose that Pittsburgh game. If Andy Dalton's playing quarterback instead of AJ McCarron, who,

you know, history says you should have traded for that third round pick and not held out for the second round pick for Cleveland to unplug their fax machine before sending in the confirmation to the league office, you know, but the biggest thing is you have to be ready to move on when you have the opportunity to do so. Now you don't really have an opportunity to do so when you win 13 games. That makes it pretty hard to move on a quarterback, but putting all your eggs in that basket when the level of quarterback play, especially in the AFC, is what it is,

makes it really hard. Now, the other thing that's different is the NFC right now is like three teams. So, does that make it a little bit different because once you get to the super bowl anything can happen we've seen that i mean generally the better team wins but not not always right sometimes not saying minnesota would be the worst team but comparing them to some of the powerhouses in the afc i would say probably they are and and that doesn't mean they can't win a super bowl if they hit it the way, they come in with the right plan. And, you know, the coaching staff they have put together now under Kevin O'Connell, who had a great first year,

is going in the right direction. You know, that could come together. But this time next year, you know, if you're talking about Kirk Cousins again, that could be a frustrating thing. Yeah, and you go past that 2015 season, and they also lose a bunch of talent as well. I mean, in 2017, Andrew Whitworth goes to Los Angeles, which is, I mean, not a guy who everybody knows. I know that our listeners do because we've talked about him enough times in that move and how significant it was because the Vikings were also looking at tackles that offseason.

They ended up with Riley Reif. Maybe history is a little different if they end up with Andrew Whitworth. I think he was that valuable to Los Angeles and, of course, was never really replaced in Cincinnati. And also, like Mohamed Sanu, it seemed like what the Vikings are going through this year. They lost two receivers. Yeah, that was rough.

Right. So what the Vikings have kind of gone through this offseason feels like something similar to that where you had this peak moment in 2015 in Cincinnati and like that was your shot and unfortunately Andy Dalton gets hurt who knows if they would have gone deeper into the playoffs probably not to the Super Bowl with Andy Dalton but maybe uh but you'll never know sorry um and with last year, it's like you get the 13 wins. This is the peak Kirk Cousins season, eight fourth quarter comebacks, losing the first round because the defense is the defense and so forth. And you can't recreate that. You can't kind of go back and play

it again with Brian Flores as your defensive coordinator instead of Ed Donatel because it maybe does go differently, at least in that first playoff game. And now they lose Adam Thielen, Patrick Peterson, Delvin Tomlinson, Delvin Cook. The roster has basically been taken apart. And so I want you to talk to me about that transition period with them hanging on to Andy Dalton, sort of scratching down the mountain or something like the slippery slope they slid down and because i've been thinking jake that the vikings need to avoid that like this is the in a way a cautionary tale i know it ends with getting joe burrow so there is that but in a way a cautionary tale of if you hang on too long and the reason not to extend kirk cousins you can end

up with just year after year being like, oh, well, all we needed to do was just develop this guy or hit on the next draft or whatever. And you just kind of waste your life. And that's partially true, right? Like if you can draft and develop, then you can stay relevant, but your margin for error is so much thinner when you don't have that guy at quarterback and what had happened as you say you know you you lose those rookie contracts and your next rookie class doesn't hit they let andrew whitworth go because and kevin zeitler i think because they think that they've drafted their replacements and then those guys don't hit cedric abuehi who's somehow still in the league

i think and jake fisher who he had a hard thing. I don't hold it against him. Could never get it going in the NFL. Those are your guys who are supposed to be your heirs of parent and tackle. They don't work out. Your offensive line is kind of a mess. Your coaching staff doesn't really get it going. And then after that year, you finish in third, you finish in third,

you finish in fourth, you get Marvin Lewis fighting. All right. Not great. Zach Taylor comes in 2-14 with Andy Dalton. Kind of tells you a little bit about what Marvin Lewis was doing with the guys that he had. But at that point, you know, the veterans of the team are also past their usefulness as stars of the team.

Like the core of the team has just aged out. Geno Atkins, Carlos Dunlap, who's still a good player, but isn't a cornerstone defensive player anymore. Adam Jones now doing the Pat McAfee show instead of playing really good cornerback. You know, the, the, the attrition over time when you're just trying to keep it together because you had some success with the core is, is the sunk cost fallacy, whatever cognitive bias exists there that you want to keep that

group together. But at some point, you do need to bite the bullet, I think. And that's really hard for any NFL team to do. Name an NFL team that has seen the writing on the wall, made the decision to tank, and gotten right back on the horse the next year. A lot of teams think that they can do it in theory, and then they miss on their quarterback, or they win a game in week 18, and then they don't draft first overall anymore. You know, whatever it is. There is a lesson there, which is don't hold onto the thing for too long. Cash out on your veterans when you can.

Get assets because more swings in the draft is good. We know that. More picks is good. But how do you make that decision? And then how do you execute that vision? Those things are very, very hard to do, even in a pretty close-to-ideal world. And we don't live in anything close to an ideal world. So it's tough.

Like the Bengals fell into Joe Burrow because they managed to lose a very exciting overtime game to Miami. And that locks up the first overall pick essentially at that point but so many things can go wrong in that process not I mean the Bengals would have drafted Justin Herbert maybe they'd be fine anyway right but it seems like Joe Burrow is the guy the city needed the guy the team needed the guy the culture needed and there's just so many variables it's so challenging I do not envy that position and I understand as a result that that's why general managers try to keep it together when they've had a team that has had success and they

have that core in their mind. Maybe that's the way you feel if you're Minnesota for some period of time. But as soon as you have the one year, the Bengals went from 12 and four to six and nine, six, nine and one, like that should probably be right that that's that's a pretty clear sign well and i think that they're trying to make it that this year and then and because of what you said about the nfc and you're totally right that uh they might not go six nine and one or whatever they might not have a six win season they might end up having a nine win season because the nfc is what the nfc is although they're playing AFC West. So that's going to be a little bit challenging there.

But still, I mean, you can end up in the playoffs. You can end up winning a division, but still be the equivalent strength of probably that Bengals team that you're talking about. That was six wins because that was a tough division at the time. So Pittsburgh, Baltimore and so forth. So I wonder about how AJ Green complicated these matters with the Beng, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and so forth. So I wonder about how A.J. Green complicated these matters with the Bengals timeline, because if there's like a comparison

between two wide receivers, if you said, who does Justin Jefferson remind you of? It might be A.J. Green, just someone who is so dominant, great athlete, everything else. I mean, I think they fit similarly. Both were really good basketball players and and can kind of do everything right short underneath over the top whatever you need them to do they can be that guy and one of the things that I think the Vikings believe is you

just can't tank with uh Justin Jefferson on your team not only because of him being really good at football. But if you send away Kirk Cousins and you win three games with Nick Mullins at the helm and your defense ranks 28th or something, that's going to be probably great and put you in the running for Caleb Williams in the long term. You'll never remember it happened. In fact, I stumbled across an article that was about Zach Taylor and how he was a disaster coach and he had lost the locker room and everything else. And then, you know, like two years later, they're in the Super Bowl with the same coach. So weird how narratives shape themselves based on the win loss record. But I think that there was some of that with Cincinnati of like, we still have AJ Green. He's still great. And now, like, how do we just tear this all apart until the forces of nature actually sent cincinnati to the bottom yeah well and with justin jefferson in minnesota

you've got the recent ptsd related to another receiver who is really good i imagine and and you know that's part of it and the whole twitter meme, my enemies speak softly and carry a knife. That's a wide receiver mentality, you know, so wide receiver, right? That's not corner. Yeah, no, it's wide receiver. Right. Yeah. So, you know, you always worry about personalities with wide receivers, I think, fairly or unfairly, like maybe Justin Jefferson isn't the type of guy to do that. And I don't think he is from what I understand about Justin Jefferson, but you know, that that's gotta be a factor at the same time.

Football is such a, a team game where the only position that I feel like you can't tank. If you have this position, a superstar, this position is quarterback. That's my my that's a personal opinion we've seen great players around this league play on awful teams every year you see something like this a hall of famer playing on a terrible team

and you know maybe they don't get the attention and credit they deserve but because the team is terrible nobody's paying attention to them it's just somebody who's been paying attention to the Bengals for years. This is something that happens to really, really great Bengals players all the time. Nobody knew who Andrew Whitworth was despite him being right there with Joe Thomas, who gets more accolades, but I don't think was a significantly better or, or, uh, uh, statistically significantly better player.

Like I think that Joe Thomas and Andrew Whitworth are pretty much the same quality hot take, I guess for people who are more familiar with Joe Thomas and Andrew Whitworth, but nobody would have even begun to have that thought because of where Andrew Whitworth played. Although for some reason it's like the Browns were better, but Joe Thomas got that attention regardless. It's because Joe Thomas was the only Brown., it's now Eugenio Atkins.

It's because Joe Thomas was the only Brown. There were other Bengals like A.J. Green. He was the only Brown. Eugenio Atkins and a few guys. Yeah, you're right. That's a fair point. Anyway, I don't remember where I was going there, except for that I personally would not have that reluctance to try to rebuild because i

had a receiver i would try to keep that receiver especially when you're 23 years old aj green came into the league a lot older than justin jefferson did 24 now is justin jefferson yeah 24 this season yep so so you have another six years there, six years before you're even worried about hitting an age wall. You keep that guy around and you know, you have loop them into the conversation and you get everybody on the same page because he is a foundation piece. How many foundation pieces are on the Vikings right now? Him and dare.

So yeah, I was thinking dare. So, and cause the rest of the pieces are a little bit older at this point right i mean or if ed ingram for us to really know yet uh just recent draft picks they yeah i mean harrison smith of course like has been but is not going to be long term right because because of age there and daniel hunter you know you'll see what happens and you know ed ingram if he takes off he's's young enough that he could be a guy.

Is Hawkinson extended? Is not yet, but he could be another guy. And I think that's still likely, but I'm not sure that, I mean, if you're, this is a whole separate conversation, but if you're Hawkinson, like maybe you bet on yourself knowing that Kirk's going to throw you the ball a ton and what top tight ends are going to get. But to your point, there's not many, there's not many pieces you could say right now. Brian O'Neill, of course, included for sure are going to be the foundational pieces of the future. You maybe only know three or four guys. I think the issue is that they badly want Justin Jefferson to sign

an extension. And if you trade away Kirk Cousins for Trey Lance or something or you completely tank then it becomes harder to convince him maybe to sign that extension yeah you get the extension done first and have that conversation yeah as far to get that deal done because obviously that that is a very important piece and despite quarterback being as important as it is we've seen the importance of wide receiver especially lately for teams that don't have Patrick Mahomes at quarterback in particular insofar as it's very important to your winning chances and you know you see if Jordan Jordan Addison hits as well folks I know you have heard me talk a ton about my Oakley sunglasses this summer but the more I wear them the more I like them I went on a little summer vacation and spent a ton of time outside in the sun.

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I would like to talk about Josh Oliver with you, but this is your show, not mine. So let's continue. Take a little side. This is just for me. That's totally selfish. You're listening to this. I'm sure you know that. Well, how do you feel about the contract that Josh Oliver signed

for the amount of money? Like, do you think that that's justifiable for the kind of offense that Minnesota's going to run? Yeah, I think it's interesting because if you look at the actual deal, it's one of those where it's like, I'm using finger quotes if you're listening, three years, $21 million.'re listening three years 21 million not exactly three years 21 million probably won't ever see the third year of that deal but there's two interesting things to me one they ran the ball really ineffectively last year i think they were

27th in epa per carry so they needed some sort of change up and i and i think josh oliver graded as the best run blocking tight end league. It is with Baltimore that probably helps the case, but still, I mean, this guy, if you've seen him in person, you know, he's going to be able to block people. The other part that's interesting to me is that Hawkinson without a contract, I wondered if there was some percentage that was hedging, like, let's go out and get a guy who might have potential because tight ends a lot of times they blossom much later in their careers than other positions. Like maybe we go get another guy who can fill a role, learn the offense. And then if Hawkinson decides that's it,

this guy could be a future piece. But I do think that when you're working with sort of pennies, signing a tight end to that type of deal is maybe not the most efficient thing unless you're thinking as far as a bigger picture. And it doesn't matter. Like you're not trying to spend every dollar to fill every position today like they have in the past. And this is why I like their overall direction to start heading in the way of only people who are going to be a part of this thing in the future. And I think Oliver is kind of part of that discussion, but maybe not as big as the three years, 21 million would make it seem. Time for another first shot running back for the Minnesota Vikings is my

takeaway from that. I don't think Casey's going to do that from what we saw last time. Let me ask you this though, because I trust me having covered Gary Kubiak, I am prepared for all the too tight end fullback discussions you want to have. But I wanted to ask you this and then we'll get into more of like the Bengals where they are as a team right now. How much different is it when you talk about the Cincinnati Bengals with Joe Burrow versus when Andy Dalton was there. Like how much different is your life and fans' discussions and mentality when you have someone – and this is coming from the perspective of a Vikings team that has not had that person since Fran Tarkenton.

So like how different is your life with Joe Burrow? I mean, erasure of Dante Culpepper, I think. Just a short window, short window. He was definitely the franchise quarterback, but probably only four seasons of that. Yeah. I think the difference is pretty tough to put to words. The Bengals went from, like we talked about, an irrelevant team.

Even when they were good. They won their division or were a wildcard team for five straight years when Andy Dalton was their quarterback. The only year anyone thought anything of them was the year Andy Dalton got hurt in 2015. He was a legitimate MVP candidate before he got hurt that year. He was putting up some pretty stupid numbers in that hurt that year he was putting up some pretty stupid numbers in that offense that year and uh that that's the only year anyone really paid attention outside of that before that it was like 2005 carson palmer before the acl then the acl happened and and that was didn't end his career obviously He had success elsewhere as well. But that was their previous chance to get into that conversation

as an actual team in the NFL, which now you hear national people saying, man, we're talking about the Bengals, the Bills, and the Chiefs. Who would have thought we would see the day? And that's the way the NFL goes. It's a cyclical, high-parity league. But the difference is pretty immense. And for the city of Cincinnati, for the energy around the Cincinnati Bengals, for the attention people pay to the Cincinnati Bengals,

pretty tough to put to words. You know, I could talk about the podcast numbers and how we went from like doing okay doing well enough to being one of the most listened to football podcasts in the United States and and I think we do a good job but I'm not taking all the credit for that I think a lot of that is that they're extremely relevant and Joe Burrows our quarterback and there's confidence that literally any year they can get the job done. And when you have that attitude and the postseason success that a fan base has been starved of since 1988, since the year I was born, that's going to go a long way in building goodwill

and changing the mentality of a fan base who didn't trust the ownership, didn't trust the front office, didn't care to go to games, didn't want to buy tickets, didn't want to support the product. As soon as you show that investment, and the Bengals still do need to show that investment, although there is no hesitancy for me to say that that Joe Burrow deal is going to get done. You've seen them spending more in free agency lately. That's built some goodwill as well around Joe Burrow. They're actually trying to capitalize on the rookie contract window and these things, and it makes a huge difference.

You cannot overstate the difference when you have the guy. Pretty hard to find the guy, though. The Bengals have been very lucky to have really good quarterback play for most of their franchise's existence even though they were not relevant for you know a long time but it's it's definitely different when you've got a guy like burrow yeah i mean uh that with the vikings the difference is probably that their fans are always kind of talked into it. I invented a game on the show intentionally around this called Talk Me Into. Feel free to steal it.

It's quite fun. You just have your guests talk you into stuff that they don't believe. And that's what really has been the Vikings history is they go into every season, fans trying to talk themselves into it because there isn't this consistent force of a quarterback that talks you into it because even when Patrick Mahomes like last year loses his top receiver I'm sure that you were not thinking oh well those Chiefs who needs to talk about them again everybody should have known and there was some you know hot take artists and so forth that wanted to say oh they're going to fall off and everything else but even when you rebuild parts of your roster major parts of your roster it's still never rebuilding whereas if you're the vikings it's what i've kind of

compared to as summer flings where last year you're having this sort of hot fun season it's crazy everyone knows it's not really for real but trying to live in the moment and enjoy it and then when it comes to an end with heartbreak you just knew that's where it was going all the time just like a summer fling uh i've never had one but uh i know people who have so it's like the um what is that billy madison like but wouldn't it be nice to you know or whatever but uh you get the point so that's how it always is. And I think that what this new mentality is from Kweisi Adafo-Mensa is that they have to chase that, like they have to chase. And he said that in an interview, more or less, the great quarterbacks

are going to win the Superbowl and Kirk Cousins is a good quarterback. And I think that they're making that effort, but going to the bottom is not something that they're necessarily going to do. So it is interesting that there are these correlations and connections and similarities, but then Cincinnati just broke that entirely with Joe Burrow and is one of the premier teams. And isn't it funny? And you can speak to this better than anybody. The Buffalo Bills and Cincinnati Beng bangles when digs was traded

to buffalo go look at the responses oh buffalo the dumbest place on earth oh siberia who cares you get the quarterback then everything changes people ask me every day about the ownership is the ownership the problem here it's like no really it's just that you've never had that guy uh who is the transformative player um so let me ask you this and we'll transition to the vikings eventually playing them on the schedule uh why why is he so great i guess it wasn't justin jefferson and jamar chase in college what is it though you see every game i only see in the playoffs in the occasional game but i'll tell you a quick story. Feel free to steal it. Mike Zimmer, former defensive coordinator of the Bengals,

before the 2021 game against the Bengals, Mike Zimmer, we were having a little side session with him, just me and a couple other reporters. And he was like, guys, I am telling you, I watched the film. Joe Burrow is the next great quarterback in the league. I'm telling you. Like this was coming off the injury. He's like, this guy does everything. I watched the film Joe Burrow is the next great quarterback in the league I'm telling you like this was coming off the injury he's like this guy does everything he is so good and we're concerned

about playing him because he's great but trust me I told all my friends in Cincinnati he's going to be the guy and I was like oh wow I mean Mike does not act like that about he hates quarterbacks so that's just like and then he was completely right like instantly completely right about evaluating joe burrow but what is it from your eye that you see that makes him that guy the intangible thing is definitely part of it it's hard to quantify and i'm not going to spend a whole lot of time doing it but he has the insane work ethic and competitiveness that you see from those top end guys that you've heard about with Brady for years. And that's part of why he draws those Brady comparisons. I do think they carry themselves differently in terms of leadership, in terms of how they interact with other players.

Part of that is generational. Tom Brady coming from, I mean, he's 20 years older. So, you know, of course there are generational differences there. But there are some similarities in terms of their approaches to the game and and how they came into the league as not having the biggest arms and well Brady not really is a highly touted prospect at all but there are some comparisons you can draw there in terms of on-field stuff though I think that mentally he's one of the best processors in the NFL at this point. There might be a couple others in that ballpark. Herbert may be one of them.

Mahomes, most of the time, I think, one of them. Without Brady in the league, that's one fewer. There are very few players, I think, that process as quickly and as much information as Joe Burrow does in that short span of time. Part of that comes, I think, from an approach of playing the game like a point guard. He has that point guard mentality at quarterback that you see with some guys in terms of anticipation, in terms of court vision translating to field vision.

And a big criticism last year of Joe Burrow at the beginning of the year was you know relying on go balls taking too many sacks well defenses took the go ball away because they were terrified of it I don't know if that speaks to Joe Burrow relying on go balls or just that he's very very good and incredibly accurate to all parts of the field, which he is. He just needs to be on time. And that is a limiting factor in his game. And that is part of the reason, I think, that he takes some of the sacks that he takes. Part of the reason is that his offensive line is horrible.

And when you look at the actual game, yes, there are quarterback sacks. Every quarterback has quarterback-infl quarterback sacks every quarterback has quarterback inflicted sacks but it's hard for me to really blame him for even some of the things that i've seen charted as quarterback responsibility sacks that being said if you're patch mahomes or justin herbert or josh allen you can make those throws off platform with all arm and push the ball on a rope 20 yards downfield or get it 60 yards downfield in stride to a receiver who's gotten behind the defense because you're out of the pocket and you're throwing across the field from right numbers to left numbers or some insane crazy throw like that that we see from those guys. Joe Burrow doesn't have that club in his bag,

but his arm strength is adequate. It's average, at least. He's worked on it every year, and I think it's gotten a little bit better, not to the extent that Brady's arm improved over the course of his career, but Brady's arm was improving into his 40s, which we're never probably going to understand

or have the truth about one of the two. But Burrow hasn't taken that step. But what he did last year is he became a lot more patient in terms of understanding, okay, I just need to check the ball down. I just need to get the ball out in time, give those guys a chance to make a play. And as a result, with teams putting a cap on the offense, playing way more too high, playing a lot more cover too, a lot more Tampa too, which gave the Bengals some issues early in the year,

especially because they weren't running the ball very effectively early in the year against those coverages with the light boxes. They go full shotgun halfway through the season and Joe Burrow just stops taking sacks he's taking pressure to sack rate that's a pff stat that that some of the burrow haters love to cite pressure to sack rate was like it was bad like 35 for the first eight games of the season or something in the second half of the season and into the playoffs he had one game over 20 maybe two games over 20 pressure to sack most of them in the low teens, high single digits.

When you watch those games from a film perspective, not from a charting perspective, not from a quantifiable stat perspective, the amount of times where Joe Burrow is impressively throwing the ball with perfect timing stands out. It pops. You cannot miss it when you watch the way that he plays quarterback. The ball is impeccably out on time. And you combine that with his ability to throw with a high degree of accuracy,

precision, ball placement, these things that enable his receivers to be with a high degree of accuracy precision ball placement these things that enable his receivers to be really good after the catch as well and you get a very very efficient quarterback who's led the league in completion percentage for a couple straight years who's led the league in pfs passer grade for a couple of years and you know he's been unlucky a lot of people like to cite the interception numbers as another criticism because he's corrected the sack thing. For anyone paying attention to the second half of the year last year, he's corrected the sack issue. He doesn't take unnecessary sacks anymore.

He still has a bad offensive line, so he's still getting sacked, especially when they lost three starters late in the year and in the playoffs. But I think his pocket navigation and timing was immaculate for the most part late in the year, like 99%. I'm talking. What was I saying? What was the other thing?

About the interceptions, right? Yeah, the interceptions. He's had two straight years of, I think, a higher number of interceptions than turnover-worthy throws. Again, a PFF stat. But, like, something that you expect to regress. Like, the amount of tip balls for Joe Burrow that turn into interceptions and turnover worthy throws again a pff stat but like something that you expect to regress like the amount of tip balls for joe burrow to turn into interceptions something i think that actually bothered him because he's also had an issue with tip passes of the line of scrimmage to the point where this offseason in the offseason program it was notable that he was working on arm

angles he's working on throwing from off-platform different arm angles and making a deliberate effort to do that sort of thing. And that's the kind of guy he is where he's identifying some particular issues in his game every year. Last year it was velocity, throwing off-platform, but he's coming off the appendicitis then in training camp and he loses all that time. He loses a bunch of weight and he's behind early in the season. So hopefully, knock on wood, there's a regular off-season for him for the first time in his career. And he's able to put all that time and effort that he's put into the little things in his game, the little, uh, the, the margins of quarterback play that really push you over the edge when you're already playing at a high level

and you start to see some of those results on the field. I forgot about the appendicitis thing. I mean, considering how he played last year after that is pretty incredible. I think that he has one of the things that Brady was maybe the goat at. It was situational awareness, just understanding what every single situation calls for. And then there's like a will to him. You saw it right away. And I think this is what Mike Zimmer was talking about, where he just has this will to win the football game by all means, no matter what. And sometimes it gets him hurt. Sometimes it gets him sacked and hit hard, but you can feel it. And I don't know what it is about that with quarterbacks,

but I used to judge quarterbacks entirely by how they played against Mike Zimmer's defenses, because you would see it in like a Drew Brees where there's kind of like a taller Drew Brees to Joe Burrow, where there's just this will to that guy where it's never over. Even in the Minneapolis miracle game, even in the 2019 playoff game, Drew Brees was behind and fought his way back to tie the game in 19. He took the lead with less than a minute left in the Minneapolis Miracle game by fighting his way back from down 17. It's like with Mahomes, with Burrow, it's not over. It's never over, no matter what is going on, if this man has a chance.

And that's something the Vikings saw in Aaron Rodgers, who is kind of similar as well to Joe Burrow. And there's just no good way statistically and charting and grading and whatever to make that point, I think, about this. There is one great stat for this, and this started with Warren Sharp, and then somebody extrapolated, Jake circus extrapolated on this so in 2022 the bengals had drives in the fourth quarter when trailing by a touchdown eight times and they scored a touchdown in five of those eight drives and uh warren sharp's stat was percentage of drives that scored points when trailing in the second half in 2022 the Cincinnati

Bengals at 68 the next best team in this situation not that they were trailing in the fourth quarter very often was the Kansas City Chiefs at 59 so nine percent difference the next best Buffalo at 53 so you drop another six percent before you get to number three and the difference between Cincinnati 68 and the third place Buffalo Bills 53 is the same as like you know from from three to because what is that that's 15 from three all the way down to Dallas I can't even count how many teams that is 10 11 so the Bengals really a step above in terms of converting for second half scoring opportunities when they're trailing. And you've seen this in numerous games, especially against the Chiefs, where they've come back from, you know, you see a team down 20 to Patrick Mahomes and the Chiefs,

that game's over 99% of the time, except for when the Bengals are playing the Chiefs. Right. Yeah, exactly. I think that's a great way to describe it, is just when you have a feeling like you have to watch all four quarters no matter what. And Vikings fans got a little taste of that in the regular season last year for sure just because of how insane every single game was. And so I don't want to go through like every matchup or anything with you. It's way, way too far away from this football game

to start having that discussion. But I guess I would ask this, if you are power ranking the entire NFL, because you know what? There's a few people out there who power rank football teams. I don't know if you've noticed by being online, but they do this. Cincinnati's got to be like number two. Is that where you would put them in the entire NFL? Because i think that i would and this is ranking stuff weak on my written side of things so i i just did teams with the best weapons and i think i had cincinnati as the second best weapons in the league they got a great case for number one little spotty on the running game um so maybe not quite but behind behind two may ask i had i had miami is number one and i'm also assuming they're going to get Delvin Cook.

I guess we'll see if he goes there. But I mean, 3,000 yards between their top two wide receivers. I had to go with them just for skill position players. But Cincinnati, I think, was number two. Yeah, I would probably argue with you about that, but we don't need to do that today. I mean, Tyreek Hill, J jaylen wattle raheem mostert pretty good running back averages over five yards a carry for his career oh

games every year barriers braxton barriers is nobody at slot receiver compared to tyler boyd who's one of the better slots in the nfl uh who's jaron sm? Smith? I don't even know how to pronounce his name. I agree with you that their number three wide receiver is certainly not as good, but I'm doing it also. I'm also waiting. And Jamar Chase deserves it. T. Higgins deserves it as well. Are right there with Tyreek. Anyway, we don't need to get into it. I would respectfully disagree because I think the top two receivers are very close. then the tiebreakers the rest of the positions for me all of them lean bangles mostly because and i like the stable of running backs and miami has i just don't think they stay healthy see i don't i just i think that leaning on mixin at 3.8 yards a carry or whatever not great

not great so i i was i was giving them some merit the ball to be fair like the bengals are going to throw the ball 600 times this year i mean really there's there's 14 in terms of weapons there's four teams that are just way better than everyone else and they could all be number one like the the dolphins the 49ers cincinnati and philly could all probably be number. You can make arguments in those directions. So anyway, second best team. You know, it's,

it's interesting. It's challenging. I hate power rankings. I think you kind of alluded to your opinion about power rankings as you were describing them. I think you can make arguments for Philly. You can make arguments for Kansas city. You can make arguments for Buffalo. The Bengals dismantled Buffalo. They didn't have Von Bell

in that game. Or Von Miller, sorry, in that game. He's really good. That makes a difference. But the Bengals were also down three starting offensive linemen. There was still no pressure to really talk about for the Bills in that game. So hard for me to put the Bills ahead of the Bengals, even though they did probably do a little bit more in the offseason. The Bengals keep together, though, a team that was right there

with three backup offensive linemen against the hobbled Patrick Mahomes in the AFC Championship game. And they lost the game because a tackle who this year will probably be their third right tackle, third tackle at either position off the bench, Hakeem Edenerji, given the roster right now, he would be third at either tackle spot, was trying to block Chris Jones on a need to have it play. He couldn't do it.

And it's reminiscent of Quentin Spain trying to block Aaron Donald on a need to have a play and couldn't quite do it uh but the rest of the team outside of safety is intact and they they kind of planned for safety with drafting Daxville in the first round last year and Jordan Battle in the third round this year I think is is too smart to not get on the field right away but they also signed Nick Scott so they have veterans there there's probably a bit of a step down, but how important is a bit of a step down in safety versus improving your offensive line by signing Orlando Brown and moving Jonah Williams to right tackle? I think Jonah will be better this year than he was last year. I think he played

through injury quite a bit last year, and despite changing position, the guy has every motivation to have a career year and a contract year so if you get a better offensive line in front of joe burrow and you return the same weapons and for whatever you say about joe mixon if he's the bengals running back this year the bengals did have one of the most efficient running games in the league last year despite the yards per carry the success rate stuff and the epa per play stuff was among the most efficient in the NFL, especially in the second half of the year when they abandoned their under center game,

became a shotgun team. And now this year they're going to be a shotgun team again, and they're going to have a full off season to marry up their shotgun run game with their passing game and make some of those things look more similar and more difficult to defend. Yeah, it's pretty tough. I do like the eagles so i think it's kansas city and then

you sort it out between the eagles and the bengals just because the eagles trench play is bananas both sides of the ball the the trench play the starters the depth is absolutely nuts and that's a lot for me to get over but But if you need, if you need to throw the ball, I definitely would rather have burrow than hurts. So how, how much closer does that get them? I don't know. That's a pretty difficult tie for me to break for those two teams. Yeah. There's kind of, um, there's kind of like a top three or four in the league. And then there's a drop off to a next level when we're talking about power rankings yes you my joke is the power rankings are the standings like yeah because

for most people it's like who won this every person's power rankings that i read or whatever is mostly just the standings with two or three teams that are shuffled around uh but those you know philadelphia kansas city cincinnati those are the teams that should be up at the top, even if they get off to slow starts or anything like that, because we know the strength. Usually what I like to do is at the end of a show with a random Vikings opponent, a reporter or a podcaster, is ask something about the history of the team or a trivia or whatever.

But I'll just ask this because I don't want to take up too much time with having you guess every old Bengals quarterback who in your mind is the most underappreciated Bengal during the dark time. So I was in Buffalo before I moved to Minnesota and like Fred Jackson is a guy that most people haven't heard of, but he was a really good player for them. And so many players just went, you know, Aaron Schoble, unless you played men, you just didn't even know who these guys were. Who is that guy or are those guys from the dark ages of the Bengals that people should appreciate more?

People that follow the Bengals closely will know him very well. And to the credit of Hall of Fame voters, they've gotten on board a little bit more in the last couple of years, but it's Willie Anderson. And I don't think it's close. I think he's one of the best right tackles ever. I think he was probably the best right tackle of his era when he was playing and one of the best tackles in the game, period, when he was playing at a time when you couldn't be an all pro unless you played left tackle and and willie anderson managed that managed that feat was incredibly accomplished as a pass blocker and a run blocker i think incredibly underappreciated

i think that he's he's the easy standout. There are some other guys, for sure. Take Takiyo Spikes, who ends up leaving the team. Brian Simmons had some good linebackers in that period of time. And not necessarily the Dark Ages, because the Bengals were out of the Dark Ages at this point, but Leon Hall is another one who was one of the best corners in the game in his time and continued to be an elite corner in the NFL after an Achilles rupture. And he had a second Achilles rupture and then he kind of slowed down. He's a little bit older for that second one, but Leon Hall was an incredible, incredible player,

great athlete, great in the slot was an inside outside corner who would kick into the slot in nickel. One of the best screen defenders I've ever seen. That's another guy that I think deserves a shout-out as an underappreciated guy for the Bengals. Because maybe the dark ages for the Bengals is just pre-Joe Burrow for most people who aren't in Cincinnati, and I think that Leon Hall qualifies for them. Post-Boomer Esiason, pre-Joe Burrow, you can make an argument.

I think that they're not in the dark ages with some of the Andy Dalton years because they were a contender and really like a stable year in and year out. They're going to be a good team for a few years there, but you could still argue players off that team. For me, it's Carl Pickens. Carl Pickens was a great wide receiver, an elite wide receiver who just never had a quarterback to throw him the football, and it's a shame. Corey Dillon got a lot of credit during those dark ages years

for the big numbers he put up. Fantasy football has just started to get rolling. But Pickens was before fantasy football, I think, just by enough. Because I think of him as being early early 90s and then you know having his prime in kind of the mid 90s yeah i think he was one of the best receivers the nfl i used to trade for him on madden all the time if you go back and watch some of those old games he's really good he's doing his job but like dave clingler is not well yeah they had a one year with jeff blake and uh yes right because, right. I think it still stands, the team receiving touchdown record,

17 touchdowns in 1995 on 1,234 yards, 99 catches. He had a couple years in there that were really nice. I think they were with Blake. Blake's deep ball really synergizing with Carl Pickens. Yeah, it was Blake for both 95 and 96, which were probably Pickens best career years, 94 in that mix as well. But yeah, Pickens great receiver in that time. Not the best ending, I think for him in Cincinnati. Um, but, but definitely an underappreciated player.

Yeah. Maybe Jeff Blake would have been one of those guys that it's sort of in the all, if he played today, team would be Jeff Blake with that bazooka arm that he had going down the field. So anyway, well, it's exciting for you to have a team that every year goes into the season legitimately believing could be the year to win the Super Bowl. But great insight on the team's timeline and kind of relating that to the Vikings. So I really appreciate it. I'm sure we'll get together again when this game actually happens, which is a really long time from now, but a really fun conversation nonetheless. Follow Jake locked on Bengals.

I assume your Twitter is just your name, Jake lists Lisko, which is L I S C O W. So you're a great follow on Twitter. Oh, I was going to ask you, I'm sorry. I know this has gone on a long time,

but you're a chess fan as well. And, I was going to ask you, I'm sorry, I know this has gone on a long time but you're a chess fan as well. Yeah, we've tweeted about chess back and forth. I remember this. Yes, we have. And so they just had NFL players. Former Viking was chess. Surratt was in this thing. What is your favorite chess opening? Oh man, I mean, I vaguely know the English. It's a good one it's a classic that's it i i i or sorry the london which is different from oh yeah the london of course yeah no i i realize um that now that more people are playing chess like the average i think skill level of chess players

has increased and uh i i have not i have not studied anything and i think that now like your average thousand rated chess player has like spent a few hours of their lives at least like studying the fried liver or something to try to just win a rook out of the opening but yeah no the the the blitzch chance thing the chess.com does is really fun chidovia woozie is a big chess guy and honestly like watching the way he lost i don't know who cares about this but like blundering back rank mate when you're like a 1400 and you're cleanly winning is a pretty brutal way to go. The second game, Drew Tranquil, who's really good in his own right, I guess Chito's more like a 1,300, clean 1,300, 1,300, 1,350,

and Drew Tranquil was like a 1,400. And so there's a bit of a gap there. But Chito had – he missed mate in one with White in the second game. And he – yeah, I mean, it was a one-move blunder that lost in the second game. It was a one-move blunder that lost in the first game. Tough way to go, but it's all for charity. Chito and Drew Tranquil, a new Kansas City Bengals rivalry piece that they can play against each other on, what is it? When do they play?

New Year's Eve. So they can play together in December and do some trash talking. They seem eager to do some trash talking over the board. Yeah, just over the last couple of years, I've watched a lot of YouTube on chess and some of the personalities and everything else. And it's a really fun world.

And yeah, okay, well, this is a pretty nerdy podcast no matter what. So finishing by talking about chess and everything else is probably a good way to go. really fun world and yeah okay well this is a pretty nerdy podcast no matter what so finishing by talking about chess and and everything else is probably a good way to go but uh you have no idea of people who are not chess fans when someone hangs back rank mate which means that you just are you're like in this attack and you think that you're winning and he's just like going after it and then all of a sudden just one move and the game is over. I don't even know a sports comparison to this.

It would just be like, if you gave up a touchdown and then they returned the kick for the closest, the closest thing is probably like you're lining up for a game winning field goal or something. And you get the field goal blocked in a tie game. The field goal is blocked and returned for a touchdown. Right? Like the Appalachian State thing.

That's what it would kind of be like. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. So anyway, well, it's fun to see you tweet about that because there aren't that many people, even with its growth, that I followed that there's crossover. So anyway, well, you do great stuff. Great to have you on, and we'll get together again soon. Thanks, Jake.

Sounds good.