Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Joe Burrow vs. Brian Flores in Week 3? Let's talk about it!

Episode Date: May 21, 2025

Matthew Coller is joined by Joe Goodberry of Bengals on the Brain for a way-too-early preview of the Week 3 game against the Bengals. How will Brian Flores' defense look to stop Bengals star Joe Burrow?See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Coller here. And I am once again beginning my series of the Vikings eventually play this team. Let's talk to somebody who covers them series. It's very catchy. It's really catching on out in the streets. And for this episode, we're going to look at week three of the Vikings against the Cincinnati Bengals and my guest Joe Goodbury who does Bengals on the brain on YouTube and is one of my favorite follows

I'm gonna say Joe you are an all-time Follow because you were an early adopter of social media So when you're looking around who's ball, you and I are both Buffalo guys, like who's around? And I latched onto your content early on and have followed it ever since. Your draft coverage is fantastic. So I'm glad that Bengals on the Brain is now catching on on YouTube as well.

And I gotta say, as far as the early season goes for the Minnesota Vikings, it is a highlight for me to have Joe Burrow coming to US Bank Stadium. He has never been there before, and the only time I have seen Joe Burrow because the last Vikings Bengals game was against Jake Browning, the Jake Browning Nick Mullins classic

that we will never forget. But it was back in 2021, Jamar Chase's first game where we all found out that he could indeed catch a football, unlike in the preseason leading into that first year. So it's been a while, man. I am really excited to have Joe burrow play against the Brian Flores defense. You know, as you were saying that I'm thinking like, yeah, wait, the Bangalore Vikings don't match up too often.

Of course they got the normal schedule rotation, but it doesn't seem like outside of that they've had too many. And then as you're growing and Michael, you have the Jake Browning game T Higgins had that crazy catch where he reaches back across the pylon They show that that's a career highlight play for him. They're gonna show that forever But and then yeah the the the first game of the Joe burrow era. That was fun That was all the 2021 says second year first game back But the I remember that game specifically because I was saying the Bengals are in a suitable window, year two of a quarterback, which you guys are entering now, even though you didn't get to see JJ McCarthy year one, but year two, anything can happen. I mean,

the sky can be the limit. We've seen it happen before. I remember going into that, like looking at the Vikings roster, here's the Bengals that just picked fifth overall, right? Burroughs coming back from injury. And I'm like, I think the Bengals could win this game and Vikings fans were mad at me on Twitter because I was confident but I'm not always that way so if you don't know who I am I'm pretty negative on what the Bengals do because hey let's face it they are the Bengals but at the same time when they make the right moves and I feel confident about their draft picks or their free agent signings I can usually put point to it and say man they've got a good shot this year and 2021 was a great year for that.

And I got to say that I did not fully identify that myself because I walked out of that game saying, I can't believe the Vikings lost that one. Well, they also missed the field goal late and then Delvin Cook fumbled. And then it also may have not been a fumble, if I recall correctly. And it was kind of a botched game for the Vikings because I also think the Vikings were, well, they were down in the game and Cincinnati let them back in by missing on a fourth down, right? So then to have not taken advantage of that, I also thought that Cincinnati that year could take a step forward, but did not expect them to be in the

Superbowl. That was something I never saw coming. But one thing I remember was before that game, Mike Zimmer used to do like a little side session with a couple of us writers and he would just sit on his golf cart or whatever, and we would just fire questions at him. And I remember him saying, guys, you're going to find that Joe burrow is going to be an incredible quarterback. And remember like he had played half his first year they were terrible yet some moments and we're like okay mike i mean like you know ball but i don't know i guess we'll see and then that entire year he elevates himself to a franchise since. So I guess the writing was on the wall at that point, but now years later,

if we're naming quarterbacks to start franchises with Alan, the homes Jackson, we'll see about Jayden Daniels and Joe burrow. To me, that's the list that you just begin with. How did it happen? Like how did it happen that Joe burrow became this level of a quarterback over the years? I think you start from the LSU story, right? And that watching him at that point, coming from nowhere, really remember transfers from Ohio state, um, it was okay. His first year LSU, nothing crazy.

Wasn't first overall pick category. And then that 2020, 2019 season that LSU team with Justin Jefferson and Jamar chase, and they were just loaded. Right. Uh, but we didn't know how loaded they were. We saw them killing teams at the college level, but now we look at it like, oh, those are three of the best players in the NFL.

But watching that and going, because at that time the Bengals started off 0-10, I want to say that year, and going in, so we were draft focused November. We were like, oh yeah, tank for Tua, tank for Justin Herbert, and oh, who's this? Joe burrow guy? He's pretty good. So as we're watching him from our perspective, it was like, oh my god, not as much is he good? He is he's advanced. How is this guy so advanced in the pocket with accuracy with touch with poise?

Everything that you're looking for doesn't have the craziest arm But athletic enough to make guys miss and run around and be crazy legs Joe burrow a little bit and and just create outside the pocket It was like okay. This is very very intriguing capped off that year was fan fantastic best passing season We've seen from top to bottom at the college level so the Bengals easily make them the number one overall pick and you're right Guys rookie season ends because the Bengals offense line is absolutely terrible and he's getting pummeled and he's he's always been like this And I don't think it's going to change but he takes hits man. He runs straight into the teeth of the defense and will just take whatever punishment they dish out and you love him for it

but at the same time he's had two season-ending injuries and you're like, all right come on Joe, you got to, you know, we want you for the long haul here. But every year a little bit better with things whether it's arm getting a little bit stronger, getting bigger, the deep accuracy getting better each year. And then his superpowers becoming elite level, that pocket presence, that ability to go off script, that touch accuracy, anticipation, IQ. I think that's what Mike Zimmer probably saw right away was like, no matter what we're going to show this guy, he's going to have the answer to it and

get to it extremely quickly. That doesn't matter how bad the offensive line is for 70% of the game, because he's getting to that back foot and the balls out and you don't even have a chance to even move yet as the defense. And so I think that's the part if you're looking for like, all right, say JJ McCarthy or two, what do we watch him for? What's what do we want to see if he's gotten away to be an elite quarterback? Well, we know he's got, he's a young guy, but he's got the athletic skill set.

You're looking for in a lot of ways. Is it the mental portion of the game? How quickly is he getting rid of the ball? How does he do against the blitz? Uh, how his time to throw with those metrics, you know, if those are starting to get faster and faster and faster, you know, mentally he's reaching the level that I think every quarterback needs to get to. So you jumped the gun on my next question about JJ McCarthy and applying that to Joe Burrow,

because that's something that I want to make a goal for this year, especially with so many other great quarterbacks on the Viking schedule. I can convince people like you to come on the show because your team is playing against the Vikings and then make you talk about what makes their elite quarterback elite and apply that to JJ McCarthy. It's very tricky. But I'm fascinated by the decision the Vikings made to move on from Sam Darnold to go to JJ McCarthy. It seems obvious to us sort of now because they drafted him at the top, but when you consider his lack of overall playing experience in college or in none here in the NFL outside of one preseason game, it is kind of remarkable.

I can't really think of another example where a team had a quarterback win 14 games, throw 35 touchdowns, and instead of getting tagged or given a five year, 500 gazillion dollar contract, it was like, yeah, go play for the Seahawks. Just go ahead. We got another guy that we really like, but I think there are some correlations between burrow and if it works for JJ McCarthy and you started to touch on them. And I think getting rid of the football was something that Sam Darnold always struggled with a lot. And we really saw that come to fruition when the offensive line melted that he didn't have

that quick game. And I feel like Joe in the NFL, the way it's constructed right now, there is so much quick pressure on quarterbacks. I know that they're going to want to throw the ball downfield because KOC and they have Justin Jefferson, but you can relate to this with Jamar chase and T Higgins. I think this is a very, very tough balance, not only just for quarterbacks, but also for offensive minds.

And again, correlations, KOC, Zach Taylor, there's the connection with Sean McVay and everyone was hiring all of Sean McVay's friends. So we got that. But I guess I wonder how Burrow has, has managed that wants to hit on big plays because you have the receivers to do it, but also needing to not take sacks because sacks are just so killer. Yeah. So this is more of a offensive identity question.

And when do you find the time to run your offense and also go for the shot play and almost force it. Cause defenses, we went through a stretch where defenses were like, we're not going to let you do that. They're going to play cover for cover to, we're not going to, we're not going to have Jamar chasing T against reading and dunking on us in the end zone and just celebrating. We're not going to do that anymore. So we're going to be over the top. And that was from the 2021 season where it's funny because they go to Superbowl that year, but they were a very different offense from 21 to 22 because in 21 defenses were like, all right, does Burrow have the arm? Can he complete downfield passes?

I think he was like 32nd in the league and 20 yard plus accuracy as a rookie. So defenses were like, yeah, beat us down the field with Jamar Chase, who can't catch and you know, whatever else. And Bengals did, and they were extremely explosive and it took them all year long Defenses did not adjust and in fact, they probably should have won this one on a go ball to Jamar Chase beating Jalen Ramsey down the sideline did happen but 2022 comes Bengals start off 0 and 2 and they are struggling and They got a cover to shell on them every look and the Bengals are at that point one of the worst cover two teams on offense their EPA is like 28th Joe Burrow to start that season they end up

number one in EPA against cover two and that has not changed since Burrow was like all right we're gonna figure this out we're going to take what the defense is giving us until you crack first and so that's what it became we're gonna be so efficient within eight yards that you're going to crack you're going to say all right all right, we can't, we got to get out of this cover to show. We've got to mix it up. We've got to send a blitz. We've got to send something else. And as soon as you do, Burrows going to T against the Jibar chase deep. And they, they just wait, they're waiting. They buy their time because they'll know that they'll go 13 plays and score a touchdown. If you want to play that game, that's what they'll do. So that's what I would say for your offense, for the Vikings, if they can become extremely efficient at it. And maybe,

maybe the version will be the 2021 version where defenses will say, hey, make JJ McCarthy beat us. He didn't throw a lot in college, right? You guys are going to run the ball. It's going to be a lot of play action. Maybe that's how you get your deep shots off, but it's almost a design that the Bengals they wait for the defense to crack or they'll be like run the ball, run the ball, run the ball, which they don't do often, but they will almost set it up. They get to that, the forties, the 40 to 40 range and it's okay, play action. Here's a manufactured shot play, which I feel like the Vikings will do a little bit more

of as they lean into their offensive design. The Bengals more absorbed the LSU offense for Joe Burrow and they're in shotgun and they're gonna throw it 90% of the time if they can if you would let them they'll do it if you're gonna give them the run game Sometimes they force the throw still but I think it's more of become super efficient at what the defenses don't want you to do And then make them move first guys if you watch the show all the time You know that I'm a hat guy But if you're wearing hats to cover up for your hair loss, then I've got something that can help you. It's called HIMS.

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if a prescription is appropriate. Restrictions apply. See the website for full details and important safety information. Yeah, I was interested last year because at the early part of the season, KOC was doing a lot of running and play action under center with Sam Darnold, which I'm sure it had been quite a while for Sam Darnold since he had really played under center. We don't see that a lot in the NFL. And yet it still is, if you don't have a Joe Burrow

who is just an absolute freak and plays in a different matrix than everybody else, those plays are cheat codes still and the outside zone stuff, I think team started to solve a little by sending edge rushers upfield and running into the quarterback as he bootlegged, but still those traditional straight drop back play action. It works guys get open down the field, and I'm so intrigued by the difference in philosophies to how to deal with too

deep because what KOC says is I bet I can move your safeties. Watch me because you know why I have number 18 and I know that two guys are gonna be on 18 And it almost reminds me of how with Adrian Peterson every defense would load the box The problem is if he broke one tackle it was a touchdown because everyone was in the box teams probably shouldn't have done that and it feels almost not that they should be playing cover one against the Vikings because then you're just Completely screwed but it feels like they just have to take the bait. A lot of times, all right, we're going to double team them,

but they know you're going to double team them so they can move your safeties, get other guys open. And that cat and mouse game is fascinating to watch. Whereas like you're saying in Cincinnati, it's short to chase, see if he runs 50 yards for a touchdown, short, short, and then, you know, make them them kind of come up and both of these offenses can be elite because of the play makers that they have but i wonder what your take is on this offense i mean think about this is the top two wide receiver battles it's one of one a whatever way you wanna put it whatever i wanna put it i think we know the two best but Jamar chase T Higgins, Joe burrow, that offense against Brian Flores is defense now featuring fat guys in the middle who can rush the passer. I love this matchup. If I'm, I'll probably write an article on this at some point, like the best position matchup versus matchups

on the Viking schedule. This one is probably my favorite. Burrow V. Flores. Yeah. And when you're talking about JJ McCarthy, you know, maybe you have to deal with the pressures and blitzes. And I'm like, he's not going to have to deal with Brian Flores. Like that. You can scratch that one off for him. They'll, he, he doesn't have to deal with that. He's that's one of the most fun defenses to watch and all the NFL, because they're going to throw every single thing at you that you may see bits of pieces watching defenses all across the league and All of that gets put into the the same defense for the Vikings and it's like oh, yeah

I think I saw the bills run that I think I saw the 49ers run that but they're running all of that and they're sending Blitzes I've never seen before and that's fun because I want to see Joe burrow tested as much as possible mentally now He's been really good against the Blitz throughout his career He was so good between 21 and 22. Then in 23, I think he was the least Blitz quarterback in the NFL. Defensive just stopped. And then 24, they blitzed him a little bit more. And it's funny when he had the calf injury,

you started to see defenses send him because he couldn't move. So there's been those instances. But overall, he's been really, really good against it. At the same time, though, I think most of his mistakes and interceptions, batted balls at times, come when they start sending those blitzes. So while he's been really efficient, if you're going to get him to make a mistake and he doesn't make too many, so that's what I'm saying, we're talking about the small margins here, you're going to get him to make a mistake, it's going to be on one of those. It's less on the, all right, we're just

going to drop back and you know, try and win where they're front four. No, I think, I think Burrow is going to dice you up and I don't think he's going to make too many mistakes if you do that. But if you can send a rare blitz at him, a weird blitz at him, you know, that's how the chiefs have gotten him a couple of times. You got to turn over in each game. It's like, yeah, they, they just, they got, they've got them one time on a third down and that was the difference in the game. Or maybe it's a late fourth quarter situation that's close game and you need to pull something out that you haven't shown got him one time on a third down. And that was the difference in the game. Or maybe it's a late fourth quarter situation. It's close game and you need to pull something out

that you haven't shown all game. Maybe even showing it in six weeks. And I think Brian Flores and the Vikings would be down for that for sure. And that's the fun to me when you're watching the tape and reviewing it and saying, all right, what did they do here? And have we seen this before?

Because I love to see how Burrow reacts to it. Just pulling up the stats right now. Only blitz 28% of the time last year, uh, 90.9 PFF grade and 112.0 quarterback rating, uh, hot take Joe Burrow. Really good at this thing with football. Uh, and, but kept clean though. About it. I don't even, uh, you don't even see a 96 PFF grade for anything, but that's what his clean rating is 110 and

Only five turnover worthy plays all of last year when kept clean for Joe burrow I mean this this is like what we're seeing from him is very Tom Brady like to me Yes, it's just there is no real answer like you remember the one or two plays that he got blitzed and is no real answer. Like you remember the one or two plays that he got blitzed and PFF has like two turnover worthy plays the whole season, but when he gets blitzed and then on the other side you're talking about somebody who one week might blitz 65% of the time and the other week then pull it back completely. And that's where I'm really interested is with the additions to the defensive line. I don't think they have to send as much pressure.

I think that they can drop back a lot more or do the whole simulated pressure thing, which you hear people misidentifying on broadcasts all the time throughout the league. But we're using it at least. They love it. Here's the, I'm okay. You know what? I'm okay with it's really hard to be a broadcaster and identify what happened on a play that the coaches will look back at 15 times to study every player. As long as they love saying it is like it was sort of like RPO. It would just be a regular play. Actually, it's like, what a great RPO. And I'm like, just let him go guys. Just let him go. He loves he loves saying RPO. Anyway, that reminds me of house hunters where if a house has a open

concept, the people just can't, they just can't get over it. They just love it so much. That to me is simulated pressures and RPOs, but that's a whole nother aside with, uh, the Bengals offense last year. Clearly some of the numbers are pushed up because they're playing in shootouts all the time. And this offensive line issue, this is the first time where we can't be like on the same page with offensive line issues because

the Vikings have actually resolved theirs. It seems like it's been something that Cincinnati has not been able to figure out in the entire borough era. Is that what is that? Is that investment? Is it how Burrow plays? Because I think quarterbacks do bring a lot of their own pressure. Is it Zach Taylor and the offense? What is the cause?

Because I think if we're talking mismatches, Flores versus Burrow, the mismatch is in Grenard, Van Ginkle, Jonathan Allen and Javon Hargrave. Yeah, and I would say it's a collection of all of those things that you mentioned. Of course it is right. It always is everything but you know they tried to draft first round Lyman, Billy Price, Jonah Williams. Those are the two picks before Joe Burrow gets there and then you know when people like the following year with Sewell versus Jamar Chase everyone's like oh you got to take Sewell, you got to protect Burrow. I mean I think they're okay taking Jamar chase five years later.

I think we can say that, but at the same time, if the Billy Price and Jonah Williams pick work out, we're not even worried about it. The Bengals had a carb written for Frank Regnau and the Lions ripped their heart out one pick ahead of them. So how much different would it have been there again? So you go into the following years and they try to pick up free agents, whether it's Ted Karras, Alex Capa. Karras has been good. He's been a leader for the team, a captain for the team. Kappa was fine for a couple years, injuries took their toll on him.

They signed Orlando Brown Jr from the Chiefs, he's been fine, went healthy. He had some injuries last year. They drafted Marius Mims in the first round in 2024. He's their starting right tackle, they're expecting big things in year two for him. The problem is though, they've got two solid tackles, hopefully, and they've got a solid center. They don't know who their guards are. And I hate that we're sitting here again in the summer, heading into the summer saying, I don't know who's playing guard for the Bengals.

I don't know if they're better than last year. I don't know if they're good enough to protect Joe Burrow and protect your investment. Hey, you make investments at receiver at tight end at quarterback. Obviously I'd like to protect them with a guard that can at least pass protecting. There's some guys out there, Brandon Sheriff, Dilton Reisner, right? You can go into those pools and probably have better than what you've got right now. Uh, we have to see if they will. I don't expect it, but there has been some talk that the Bengals are interested in.

They want to see their guys first. I think getting a new offensive line coach this year also that Scott Peters, that his specialty is technique and working on that rather than moving from Frank Pollock, who was their offensive line coach before, who was more getting the guys to work in unison and working through, you know, less technique, more X's and O's assignments, uh, should be a step in the right direction. They're really honing in on development with their defensive staff and their offensive staff, the guys they made changes with.

And I think that's a big thing to get in Amarius men's to the next level. And we'll see if they've got a guard. They draft Dylan Fairchild in the third round for out of Georgia. We'll see if he steps in and starts right away. I think he needs a technical review and, uh, and maybe a complete reworking from Scott Peters. So we'll see if they do that. I will say this though, I agree. Burrow invites some of that pressure.

He wants to hold the ball. He has said it himself. He was on a podcast like a couple of years ago and that's been a famous clip that's gone around. Bengals fans always share it. They goes, wow, I'm not gonna throw the ball away on third down. I'll take the sack trying to make something happen,

trying to break a tackle, trying to make a guy miss so I can get the guy downfield. We're punting it anyway, if I don't make this play so what's the difference and it's true and if you look you've got the pff stuff burrow is number one uh against pressure in the in the league last year he's number one graded he had the highest passer rating highest adjusted completion percentage high grs per attempt like when it happens he's really good now all those numbers are better when he's not pressured as everyone is around the league but when he is, he's really good. Now all those numbers are better when he's not pressured as everyone is around the league, but when he is pressured, he's still really dang good.

And I think Bengals live in that and maybe live in it a little bit too much because that means hits are still coming. It means it is affecting your passing game a little bit too much. Uh, but we'll see if they can get into these games. I think if there's less shootouts, there's less opportunity for him to just be a sitting duck back there. The defense doesn't look that improved. I'm sure we'll get to that.

But I think the equalizer is chase Brown at running back. And if they can lean on him and he can create these explosive plays, cause he looks so explosive back there. That can take a little pressure off your passing attack and maybe give them some easier drives where it's not all 100% Joe Burrow. Well, it's probably the want to run the ball. Why you don't have Dalton Reisner yet because Reisner is a really good pass protector, and I think that he kind of saved the season last year coming

in at right guard because they were just giving up pressure after pressure with that Ingram, and then he came in and he graded as a top 10 pass blocking guard, and I would agree with that. I thought he did a really good job. He's never going to wow anybody, but he just anchors really well. And he's kind of a guy that came up as a tackle and knows how to do it, but just not mobile enough, quick enough to be a plus run blocker. In fact, that's why he's still a free agent every single year in may is because

every team wants somebody who can run block. I think for a team like Cincinnati, that would actually be worth it to have adults and rise there. Just run to the other side. It'll be fine. You're going to throw the football, but that's, you know, the way you describe burrow is why I can't wait to see him again in person because he just, when you look at him on paper or you watch him play, there really is no answer for him. And so how do teams approach him differently to try to find answers? And that is just like put it on the can't wait to see list. But yes, I did want to wait 23 ish minutes before asking you about the Bengals defense. Here's what amazes me about football sometimes is how fast and we talked about Brian Flores deservedly.

So brilliant and there's tangible things we can talk about, uh, of how he's taught these guys to be a, uh, a moving target to never have like an exact scheme, but it's always game by game, play by play all that's amazing. But if the Vikings lose five players on their defense, they won't be good. And we saw that in 2023, Mike Zimmer in 2019 had a stretch of every single year. They were in the top five in either yards or in points and then 2020. They're the worst defense in the entire league. What happened for Cincinnati to go from?

Hey, this defensive coordinator is the next head coach in the league. He's brilliant. Look how genius he is too fired. Yeah. Lou Anna Rumo, uh, who was there for, you know, since Zach Taylor got there. And if the Zach Taylor era started with, they couldn't find a defensive coordinator to take the job. And it was interviewing a bunch like Jack Del Rio. And he's like, no, no, thank you. You know, it was guys like that retreads that didn't want the job. And we, as Bengals fan, like who who is this Lou Anarumo guys only coach defensive backs.

I wouldn't really like Lou and it's largely because of the playoff runs in 2021 and 2022, where they got into the playoffs and man, he was just a wizard. I mean, pulling out things that made quarterbacks hold the ball longer than they should have. Forcing throws into coverage that most quarterbacks, these good elite quarterbacks, whether it was Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Pat Malmsteen, throwing it into coverage that they wouldn't normally do. And it's watching it on tape as a tape guy. You're like, oh my God, look how seamlessly these guys are moving, showing one coverage pre-snap, switching to another post-snap. And they're all just moving as one, a very symbiotic relationship, that entire defense.

And then they lost Jesse Bates and they lost Vaughn Bell at safety. That hurts. He lose Shobie Awuzie. He was playing really good for them. They lost Eli Apple at corner who has never been a good player, but you lose the secondary pieces. And all of a sudden the communication got really weird. And as the Bengals do, they try to replace through the draft drafting Dax Hill to replace Jesse Bates. Dax Hill never played free safety at Michigan that's not what he did so they're gonna be like all right you go play free safety well it didn't work of course

so two years of that of trying to figure out who can replace DJ Reader who can replace these other guys and it the draft picks weren't hitting. Part of Lou's scheme was very complex without clear answers. So the credit to him is it's very complex. The negative to him is that players were searching for answers for some of these things. They get a look from the offense and they were like, we are not prepared for this. We don't know what we're supposed to shift into. We don't know what we're supposed to do. And now they're exposed or they're making mistakes, big mistakes. And for young guys, that was really tough for development. Like how can you put them in that situation

if you don't trust that they're gonna do the right thing or do anything at all when they don't know what to do? So it became a point where, hey, we're paying quarterback, we're gonna pay both receivers, we're gonna pay the tight end, a couple offensive linemen, the money isn't going to be there. Hopefully they pay Trey Hendrickson. The money's not going to be there to pay everyone.

We need a defensive staff that can get these young guys, simplify things, get these young guys to play full speed into their maximum potential. And that's why the switch happened. It wasn't so much that they, you know, that they hated Lou or Lou's not good. It's just, it wasn't a good fit anymore for where the team was at that point. They needed the young players to play and play well. Bengals have spent a lot of draft picks there. So they went with Al Golden, who was their linebackers coach when they made that run in 2021,

who went left for Notre Dame and had a great success. Obviously they're, they get to the championship game. I even know they get a kill at the end, but Notre Dame had a really good defense, very good defense. And they're like, Hey, come on back, run your system, do what you do best, bring your staff, get these young guys to play to the maximum potential. And they gave them a bunch of young draft picks as well. The first two picks in the draft, Shemar Stewart and then Demetrius Knight at linebacker. I'm not the biggest fan of them, but hey, Al Goldin, do your thing, work your magic.

That's what you're here for. And they've drafted guys like Cam Taylor Britt and Dax Hill and DJ Turner and Jordan Battle and Chris Jenkins and McKinley Jackson and Joseph Osai, Miles Murphy. They spent a ton of picks on the defensive side. You can get them to play even marginally better. Even half of those guys that play marginally better. The defense should take a step forward and that really will help this

offense if it's the offense is just as good as we expect it to be. You're in the playoffs at that point. Inexperienced defensive players sounds to me like Kevin O'Connell's wheels turning of how to mess with those players, especially with his route combinations and tendencies and things like that. This is something that I have talked about on the show quite a bit, because I'm sure you've observed this with fans as fans get smarter. There's also like sometimes a forest and trees effect where it's like,

well, we know that overall being younger, cheaper rookie contracts, all those things, they're all really good team. I think that fans are across every team are thinking more about what is our team's window and how do we extend that window the longest? But sometimes you can miss the fact that veteran teams win the Super Bowl and with the Vikings, they do not have a young team. They don't have a young defense, but they can also have a Stefan Gilmore and Shaq Griffin come in and play pretty darn great for them at corner where if you had younger guys who didn't know defense as well as they did, you

would have had way more mistakes because of what Flores is asking them to do. It also goes to like Dallas Turner. You can't just ask Dallas Turner to go in there and be an elite player right away in this defense, but everybody wants the draft pick to be the superstar right away. And what you're describing is a team that was veteran. And even if some of the guys had flaws, they understood what they were doing and they were in the right spot, which is better than being really fast in the wrong spot, which we see all the time in the NFL with the complexity of offenses.

I think as we go into this matchup many months from now, but I'm already excited about it, that to me is the biggest mismatch on the field by far, not even close. Jefferson Addison, KOC against the Cincinnati defense. Uh, is Shamar Stewart going to help them here? I, the draft was really funny because draft grades don't matter. We know that. But boy, did everybody hate Cincinnati's draft. I mean, I, I don't remember a time where everyone was so on par.

They're like, well, you know, maybe this one was good. Cincinnati, though, that was awful. Why did everyone hate your draft so much? You know, and you're right. Some Bengals fans were like, no, everyone hated it. Well, if you take the consensus, they came in 32nd of every team. So, you know, some some graders only get B minuses to the worst team. So, you know, that is enough in my opinion. So the Bengals are 32nd there. Why?

I think it's because they took a lot of risk and for a team that couldn't absorb the risk right now. But I don't know that I agree with that. But that was a lot of the analysis I was reading. And I think one part is I understand that because hey, you've got to get back, you got to get this ship turned around and get it back on track, right? So you've got to take some safer players. Maybe guys that'll make immediate impact, high impact for you. But I think that part is hard to quantify coming from the draft to the NFL. Sometimes it's guys that look like projects,

but we would say have high upside because they have the athleticism, the length, whatever. Next thing you know, that guy's a superstar right away or in year two. And you're like, wow, great. I guess he wasn't a developmental project. And then there's other guys that we thought, Oh, this guy's a safe prospect. Take him.

Well, he's safe. What sometimes is a, is also known for, he doesn't have much upside. He doesn't have that physical ability. You think he can plug and play, but it's just not a good enough player. He doesn't have the talent to, to elevate your defense. So the Bengals take guys like Shemar Stewart that are dripping with talent and dripping at the size and length and athleticism. I would say similarly to Demetrius Knight in round two, but

they've got their issues. Demetrius Knight, former quarterback, played one year basically a big time football at a big program at linebacker. He's very raw, but at the same time, the tape's really good. And he's gonna be a 25 year old rookie, Shemar Stewart, four and a half sacks in three years at Texas A&M. We need sacks of angles pass rush was all Trey Hendrickson He had a half a sack less than the entire Rest of the defense with his 17 and a half last year. Everyone else combined for 18

So you need that you needed the help is schmarr gonna provide that help Is he all of a sudden we've seen for years. If you don't get the production in the college level, you typically don't get the production at the NFL level. Now, the guys that come and rise above that and outplay that production tend to be the big, strong athletic freaks, the Danil Hunters, but they get, again, Danil Hunter though, goes in the third round. So if you want to give me Shemar Stewart in the third round, I'm cool. Let's do that. That's, that's where the risk meets the potential upside. Bengals taking that risk in round one, hoping for a Rashaun Gary type outcome, because Jerry Montgomery is their new defensive line coach who came from the Packers was there when Gary was drafted. I get why. But again, I mean, in my process, I like to quantify things a little bit more and not have those personal

relationships where you're like, yeah, we did this once we can do it again. It doesn't work that way. Follow the numbers, follow what, what the process normally lays out for you. So I was with the people. I didn't think they had a good draft at all, but I, the only team I had lower and your friends are like this, your listeners, the only time I had lower than the Bengals grading through our, uh, uh, draft process was the green Bay Packers. Oh yeah. Okay. Well, I could definitely see that. Uh, let me follow up on that in just a second. We have a name for this, what you're describing with Shemar Stewart. It is the Denial Hunter fallacy. The Denial Hunter fallacy is that we can get them to sack people.

Oh, we'll just take his raw skills and mold him. But not only was Denial Hunter, there's a few things that people miss every time. Not only was Denial Hunter, uh, 20 years old when he came into the league, which is very different from a lot of these guys, he had a ton of TFLs that year. So he was still getting into the backfield. But also DeNeil Hunter as a human being is one of the most unique people that I have ever met in football. Like the perfect combination of an insane work

ethic, but also highly intelligent, very, very moldable, very aware, very coachable. I mean, beyond coachable, like this is not a guy who was just a normal NFL prospect. It was somebody that was a super unique human being to go along with that. Also, he was blessed with playing on the other side from Everson Griffin when he was developing, which got him a lot of one-on-one matchups. He had Mike Zimmer, who was bringing double A gap blitzes, which often caused defenses to shift,

line him up on tight ends. We used to laugh about it, like a tight end against the Neil Hunter. And then he was able to develop over the years. I think even with Rashaan Gary, it took three years before he was sacking people. Addafe Owe is another guy who it was several years down the road for the Bengals to pick someone that in the best case is going to take several years to me is very risky in the first round when you need day one contributors, which is really my last question for you, which is can the Cincinnati Bengals win the Superbowl with this roster?

I know their quarterback can, I know their wide receivers can, but can they win it with a defense like this and offense like this? Because even as we saw last year, the weaknesses usually get you at the end of the day. Yeah, their weaknesses have been the same now for five years whether it's interior Pass protection and their seasons were ended in 2021 in the Super Bowl by Aaron Donald, right? getting to Joe burrow before Quentin Spain could get his jump set which was supposed to From the coaches he was supposed to jump set outside and force Donald back inside where the center was coming to help

Spain didn't do it and he allowed Donald to go right it's hard it's a hard block but if you do what you're supposed to do you might add another half a second there for Borough to find Jamar chase down the sideline. 2022 Chris Jones beats Hakeem Adhenji at right guard or right tackle I can't remember which one now because he played both but beats him first to sack Joe Borough in our final possession of that season. And the Bengals just continue with guard play being an issue. And then on the flip side, on the defensive side, when they've failed, it's because they haven't had the pass rush outside of Trey Hendrickson.

Hendrickson's fantastic. He is so good. And I hope he's here for the next three, four years, whatever the deal ends up being, and if they come to an agreement. But it can't be only him. I am of the belief that you need three guys at least to create a full functioning pass rush, whether it's one interior guy, two interior guys, and an edge guy, two edge guys, an interior guy. You need at least three to cause it, cause enough chaos for the other guys to clean

it up. The Bengals don't have that. They're hoping Joseph Osai or Miles Murphy or Shemar Stewart or Chris Jenkins, whoever that they've drafted can turn into one of those guys but typically if you're looking and saying yes well can this team win a Super Bowl sure because burrow could turn into a god in the playoffs and Jamar chase is uncoverable and they just they carry them it could happen at the same time I still feel like they're going to get into situations where it's not like you're playing these poor teams in the play.

If you're playing these teams that also have Josh Allen, they also have Lamar Jackson and Pat Malmes. You go God mode with Joe Burrow. Well, so did Lamar Jackson and you lost. So what? So you need these other guys to step up. You need these weaknesses to be able to be hidden a little bit, maybe turn them into a strength for a day or two, a game or two, a week or two, whatever. And I don't know that the Bengals can do that

with the talent they currently have at those spots. Now, if they develop those D-line, those D-linemen picks that they've spent on, and next thing you know, where we look up and hey, Shemar Stewart had a great rookie year. Miles Murphy, we talk about guys that didn't have the production in college, that have the physical tools. Well, you're three for him. Whoa, now he's good.

That'd be huge for this defense. So there is some hope that the defensive line figures it out. I don't have the same hope that the guys they have for the guard spot currently on the team can protect Burrow when it's third and seven. We're dropping back and Steve Spagnolo is going to pull out something we haven't seen all game. Those guys need to protect for more than 2.2 seconds. Like can we get them to three seconds? And if we do, I trust Burrow to find the right guy

and get us in the right spot. But as of now, I am concerned about those spots. Yeah, it does feel like one of these years it will come together and you won't have the weaknesses around Burrow and they'll be back in the Superbowl because he's good enough. But it's almost reminding me of like a Dan Marino. Now this is showing age's almost reminding me of like a Dan Marino. Now this is showing age, of course, but like a Dan Marino where he gets to the Super Bowl so early and he's so great. And then every year it was kind of something of his career where they just, the dolphins could never really build around him.

And I'm sure there's a more recent example of this that's better. Uh, but it just like that level of quarterback John John Elway and we get to, you know, right. And then it wasn't until late in his career, right? No, that's, that's true. Cause Marino never got back, but Elway eventually gets Gary Kubiak and the receivers in the line and all that sort of stuff. And it feels like they're just going to tread water as a really, really good team for a while until something clicks. Uh, okay.

Before we wrap up, I always like to ask our guests who cover opposing teams for the Vikings. What do you want to know about the Vikings? What questions you got for me? Is it all see the, I was going to think, is it all JJ McCarthy? Or is that everyone's like focused quarterback position? Cause it's exciting, but also nerve wracking. Can you be as good as Donald?

Cause even if he's not as good as Donald is the team not as good, well, the line should be better this year. The defensive line should be better this year. Is it, is my rambling right there? Basically what's going on in the whole conversation, but is to me, my analysis has always been in my, and how I've done things is it is so quarterback focused that if he takes that step or gets to where Donald was last year, that team looks really good on paper. Is that how people feel? Yeah, no, it's 100% how people feel. I think that as far as a first year quarterback, not a rookie,

but a first year quarterback taking over, go through historically starters first year and find me a better situation. The only ones you can find is probably Brock Purdy coming off the bench and going to the NFC championship and then in his first year starting going to the Super Bowl, but it's pretty similar schemes and asks to their right. And I don't think that you're asking McCarthy

to do everything, but you are asking him to do enough and that was how it happened with Sam Darnall where it started out. They just do enough. Make a couple throws a game. Keep the train on the tracks. Keep the offense running and you'll be good. And then as it went along, what was really interesting to see with

actually both Kirk and Sam Darnold was at some point the offense clicked with them. They really got it. And once they did, they started playing great. And so does that happen for JJ McCarthy? But I think that there is a signal in the fact that they made this decision, because we're all sitting here going, we don't know what McCarthy's going to be, but the people closest to him that saw him behind the scenes all of last year,

all through training camp, we saw camp practices, but they saw his day to day and all that they decided it was an okay idea to move on from a quarterback as good as Darnold Was last year they decided that despite Aaron Rodgers calling them and saying please let me be a Viking like Brett Favre And they were like no eventually they got to that I guess I mean so to me that says a lot about how good they think He can be. But as far as like what the fan focus is, you'll never find another off season where the team spent this much money brought in this much star talent or retained it because they kept Aaron Jones, they kept Byron Murphy, and then they bring in Jonathan Allen, Javon

Hargrave, Jordan Mason, Isaiah Rogers, like all these guys. And it's like, okay, yeah, that's great about those guys, but like, we're all focused on it. You'll never see another off season like that where a team spent this much. And those are all like, yeah, I guess Jonathan Allen's on the team, whatever. What does JJ McCarthy look like? And my struggle and it will be my struggle by week three. We'll probably talk again before that game.

My struggle that I'll probably tell you is how do I not you can tell me what you did with burrow. How do I not overreact to stuff because I don't want to be that person who's like the OTAs man. It wasn't good like or or OTAs. He looked like Montana. I but yet I know that's what everybody wants you know I do have advice for that I would say just react to it don't

overreact or under react just react if it's a good day it's a good day if it's a bad day it's a bad day except the expectation that those things are going to happen like we were we were convinced burrow was gonna be great right I mean maybe delusional but we were convinced that he was gonna be great because they all don't work out, but we were like, oh bad day here today. Tomorrow's gonna be better, you know, and then it was. It's like, okay, he's getting better at these skills. He's getting better here. He's getting better here. Look at the data here. It looks like he's getting rid of the ball faster. All of these things were signs of progress and it's

not linear, right? It doesn't just, sometimes it's like this and maybe a step down and back up. Once you're comfortable with that and you know that's what's gonna come, you can embrace the hills and peaks and valleys and just say this, part of the process at the end of the season, we wanna be better. That's why I'm looking at it and the way you were talking,

it reminded me of the Bengals going to 2021, the second year, they had a ton of free agents that they brought in, whether it was Mike Hilton. And I mentioned Shobhi Uzi and Vaughn Bell and DJ Reader, Larry Ogan, Joby. They traded for BJ Hill right before Trey Hendrickson was signed. Like, so they built their defense on a lot of free agents and just said, hey, Burrow and the young guys, with Joe Mixon as like the veteran leader on there and CJ Uzama at tight end and Tyler Boyd. Those are veteran leaders, but you know, these free agents without that run in free agency,

which they've unprecedented for the Bengals. They don't do that if you don't know, you know, for the listeners here, but you guys are in that similar situation. Those free agents hit and McCarthy hits. That's the recipe. That's the fun recipe. That's the recipe for a fun and exciting season, even with the Valleys. And the part of it too is, as I mentioned, fans being more knowledgeable and sharper than ever with some of this stuff. They have been aware for a long time that this is the rookie quarterback contract advantage, and it has now arrived, which is both exciting for Vikings fans and also nerve

racking because you know that there's a window and even as you mentioned with burrow his contract and the receivers contracts and everything becomes more complicated down the road so this is one of three or four years that you get to really do that and go all in with the free agents so how it turns out will be fascinating to see play out uh jo, Joe Goodbury, great to get together with you, man on the show. Uh, I implore people that even if you just love football and want smart football talk, bangles on the brain is a great place. And you on Twitter, a great place to find that. So I admire your work ethic and your coverage of the Bengals and, and how you put it together and your approach. So I'm really glad that we

could get together, man. And we will definitely do it again soon. Four months from now when the Vikings play the Bengals in week three. Thanks, dude. Thank you.