Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Josh Dobbs crashes back to earth in Vikings loss to Bears

Episode Date: November 28, 2023

Matthew Coller and Dane Mizutani of the Pioneer Press talk about the Vikings brutal loss to the Chicago Bears and whether the season just went crashing down, whether Dobbs just showed who he is and if Kevin O'Connell botched the game Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody, welcome to the Minnesota Vikings actually lost to the Chicago Bears 12 to 10 in Roger Goodell's National Football League tonight at US Bank Stadium. What a hideous, ugly, horrendous display of football that we saw at the stadium. But welcome everybody to the post game show. And we're going to talk about what things we see. Because, you know, I think when you watch a game like this, you get a lot of different viewpoints. And I have seen every single one of them on social media, including fire everybody, which had to be coming, right? There's got to be one person in every crowd that just says fire everyone because they don't know what else to say. After watching a 12 to 10 football game where the Vikings lost the game. They absolutely could not lose and now have just watched their playoff odds

sink from the driver's seats to the playoffs to now. There is a serious risk of missing the post season. If they continue to play football like this, to throw four interceptions, to turn the ball over and to have some, let's just say questionable coaching. But you know, there, when we talk about the different ways to look at this Dane, uh, sorry, Matthew Collar, Dane Mizutani, Pioneer Press just wanted to jump right into this one. Uh, but, uh, I look

at it and say, Oh, a backup quarterback. Ah, yes. Life with a backup quarterback where we get convinced after some hot performances that this backup quarterback is the answer and you can work around him and he's wonderful. And actually you found a diamond in the rough. And as let's say, Josh McCown, Ryan Fitzpatrick, and many backup quarterbacks along the way have proven to us regression to the mean is very real when it comes to those backup quarterbacks. And the Vikings survived a couple of weeks, got a couple of good performances by Josh Dobbs. But if you go look at his game log from Arizona, I'll tell you what you're going to find.

You're going to find some good games, and you're going to find some bad games. And when the bad game hits, it is really hard to win. So I'm noticing, Dane, a lot of criticism for the second straight week of Kevin O'Connell should have been more aggressive at the end, should have had a better game plan, should have stuck with the run. There's, I mean, across the board and you know what? All of you making those arguments, you can make really good cases. I don't know why they didn't run more. I don't know why the rhythm and timing was off. I think the bears actually played really good defensive football. I don't know why they weren't a little more aggressive. I don't know why they didn't run more. I don't know why the rhythm and timing was off. I think the Bears actually played really good defensive football. I don't know why they weren't a little more aggressive.

I don't know why they went for one fourth down in the middle of the field, but not the other fourth down in the middle of the field. I don't have great answers for you. After the game, Kevin O'Connell didn't either. He answered, I trusted my defense, which was a reason for going for it on fourth down. And I trusted my defense, which was a reason to punt. So figure that one out. But I think when you have a backup quarterback, such as Josh Dobbs, throwing four interceptions, being behind on a lot of throws, getting sacked, getting intentional grounding, struggling and sputtering with the offense today,

as he did as backups want to, that at some point missing the greatest receiver on earth and a top 15, sometimes top 10 quarterback will catch up to you. And that's what just happened as the Vikings dropped to 500. So what do you see, Dane, in this hideous picture that we just watched in front of us at us bank stadium i see everything that pretty much everyone sees and all the frustration is merited i get the upset fans with coaching decisions and lack of aggression late and maybe questionable aggression early and i understand people being continuously frustrated with the run but i really think all of these frustrations are just rooted in what you said, the reality that the Vikings now live in, which is they are going to have to trot

out a backup quarterback every single week, the rest of the year. And this is the roller coaster that you're going to be riding. And because of that, I think there's going to be games down the stretch here, five games to go where we're saying, okay, well, that was a weird game. Or, oh, wow, Dobbs looked good again. Or maybe it's Nick Mullins. Because this is just what is going to happen when you lose your starting quarterback. And I think the Josh Dobbs story was fun. I think we all dug into different parts of his life.

And he's a super interesting guy and seems like a really nice guy. He was pretty affable after the game. But at the end of the day, he is who he is. He's a backup quarterback that throughout his whole career has either been a backup or been a starter that turns the ball over at an alarming rate. And that's what he's proving to be kind of in real time. It was a fun story for a while. One that I kind of bought into thinking like, oh, maybe they really could figure something

out with him and use his mobility to kind of unlock a different dimension in this offense. But we're starting to really see, like you said, regression of the mean and what happens, you know, when you lose super important people on your team and how it can kind of create a domino effect. It was kind of masked by the magic of two weeks of Josh Dobbs, but at the end of the day, what we saw today, which was not a good game, it was a debacle in real time, but what we saw is what happens when you have to just rely on a backup quarterback.

It has suddenly gotten very dark in here. I'm sorry about that. They're shutting all the lights off except behind us. So if they shut off the stadium lights, you'll just have to listen. But it's getting very dark in here also describes the feeling based on what we just saw. And so there is the global explanation, which is, look, Josh Dobbs is going to have these saw. And so there is the global explanation, which is, look, Josh Dobbs is going to have these games. And truly, if you go look at any of the games that he started in Arizona,

you can find some really good ones and you can also find some really rough ones. And that's what we've seen so far, where he played pretty rough in Atlanta, found a way to win. Then he plays an incredible game against the Saints. We go, all right, well, I guess this is the real Josh Dobbs.

But the Chicago Bears have a very good defensive coach. Do they have a great head coach? I don't really think so. But Matt Eberflus was phenomenal when he was with Indianapolis. And this is the second time where he has outcoached Kevin O'Connell offense versus defense just this year. Even with Kirk Cousins at the quarterback position, the Chicago bears defense completely shut down the Vikings when they were at soldier field. So it shouldn't be terribly shocking that they did it here with the addition of Montez

sweat. And what they did a really great job of was containing Josh Dobbs. And the reality is that if you are asking Josh Dobbs to drop back, sit in the pocket, get pressured, find receivers, make on point, accurate throws with great timing, you just are asking too much of Josh Dobbs to be able to do that. I think what we saw tonight was the timing was off. The details were off and Kevin O'Connell used the example of the fourth down that was stopped short where he drops back, lets the ball go ever so slightly late with his footwork and release. And TJ Hawkinson goes down a half a yard short for a first down. He also gets fooled on a coverage on the first interception

where I think he just didn't anticipate the corner coming off and dropping back, intercepting the ball. The timing was off on Jordan Addison when he was running over the middle. And I don't know whose fault that was. Addison gets hit right in the dome and the ball ends up getting intercepted. But that was another part of this too, is that Josh Dobbs had a really, really brutal night. No one would ever argue that he played well, including Josh Dobbs. But there were some other parts of this. The offensive line got beat in the last two weeks now. And this is where I think this bye week is going to help them. But the last two weeks now, they have shown more vulnerability as an offensive line than

they have really in quite a long time. And Josh Dobbs is not going to be able to overcome that. And if you're going to also ask the defense to make stop after stop and turnover after turnover to be able to hang in, they're going to give up something by the end of the night. So there were a lot of different elements that went into losing this game. But I think when it comes all the way back to you're playing a backup quarterback without his number one wide receiver, and it can certainly be a lot better than this. I would not suspect that four interceptions are going to

happen all the time, but Josh Dobbs is also prone to the turnover. And we know that now it's just something they're going to have to work with the rest of the way. And yeah, I guess I just think that this roller coaster gets more extreme. I mean, we thought of it as a roller coaster with Kirk cousins and we called it the Kirk coaster all the time. And so now you bring in somebody that has even more, you know, wild fluctuations in their play throughout their career. It's what you're going to get. That doesn't make it any better, though, or feel any better when they were in the driver's seat to go to the playoffs and they lose by one and then they lose by two.

That just feels like such a gut punch to a team that two weeks ago was feeling very high coming off that New Orleans win and then has fallen apart in some of the biggest moments over the last two weeks ago was feeling very high coming off that New Orleans win and then has fallen apart in some of the biggest moments over the last two weeks. Right. And I think that's why the locker room seemed so frustrated and devastated after the game is because this is a team that really felt like the playoffs were a possibility. We have light. And after losing in Denver in a game that you feel like you should have won because of turnovers, because Alexander Madison fumbled the ball, and then losing tonight in a game you absolutely should have won,

you had to do everything in your power to lose because of turnovers. That's why you see the frustration, is because it's been kind of the story of the season, their, their lack of ability to win that turnover margin consistently. But in, in real time, it showed up tonight and last week, you lost the games. And in some ways you've lost the season in the process with,

with this consistent, you know, plagueness of turning the ball over. And I think Josh Dobbs obviously deserves a lion's share of the blame tonight. He threw four interceptions. And it starts with him. He's the guy who, you know, has the ball on every snap before it goes anywhere else. And he took ownership of that afterwards.

But I really think that this is just something that it's, it's a hard situation to be put into and to criticize him. Totally fair. But this is a situation that like, I think is just an unenviable thing for, for a guy who isn't supposed to be in a situation like this. This guy is a backup quarterback at its core with turnover issues. So the fact that this is now, he's kind of going to be the guy that we

pile on to, I get it. It comes with the territory. It just feels kind of a little bit like covering up a lot much larger issue, which is that they lost their starting quarterback and have been playing without their best player for the last month and a half. So I think better days are ahead when, when Justin Jefferson returns, I don't necessarily think this is a reason to next year. And I'm sure we'll talk about the future. Like we always do at the end of the podcast, this isn't a gut reaction. You need to go re-sign Kirk Cousins now. It's just proof that when you have a backup quarterback like Josh Dobbs, who seemed to have caught lightning in a bottle for two weeks, it's not going to be a sustainable model for success. So honestly, two weeks ago, I thought

maybe this team could do something. They're pretty scary. There's an element of surprise with Josh Dobbs and Justin Jefferson's coming back. I no longer feel like that just because you're starting to kind of see who Josh Dobbs is as a quarterback on the football field. And it's just, it's one that might be a little over his skis being asked to do as much as he's going to be asked to do in Kevin O'Connell's offense. So I think the question that it comes down to, because we all know the realities of the backup quarterback and throughout the last couple of weeks, we've talked about like the wide range of outcomes here, where maybe there's one where Josh Dobbs ends up being the starting quarterback. Who's your bridge. And I can't entirely count that out also though

when the head coach is saying I thought about benching him I am not committing to him coming out of the bye week we could also see Nick Mullins depending on if he's 100% because Mullins is much more fluent in this offense Dobbs was already benched once with another team so far this year the sample size just grows and grows of what we actually have here. But we always knew that there was, if he played extremely well, they won 11 games, took him to the playoffs, that we'd be talking about,

well, Dobbs is going to come back next year, and then maybe they'll draft somebody and we'll see where that goes. But we also knew the other side of that, which was he turns the ball over a bunch. He can't ever really get on the rhythm of timing of the offense consistently that he gets sacked too often, that he has an intentional grounding when you can't really have an intentional grounding there.

He tries to throw a ball when he's going down and getting sacked. And we talked about that coming out of Denver, that there were a few plays where he was trying too hard to extend a play. And the other thing that we have long known and the NFL has long known is if you rely on running and playmaking only, that somebody is going to find a way to shut it down. And that's what we really saw from Chicago. And again, I just want to say they deserve a ton of credit with their defensive game plan because they were not having that. They stayed in their rush lanes. They did a great job. They pressured more than I think with four rushers, we've seen

anybody pressure against the Vikings. It's a big credit to Montez sweat. Who's a great player and is going to be here for a while. But also we have to mention that when you rely on magical plays, well, they're magical for a reason because they're hard to repeat right that what he did against Denver when he shrugs the guy off and then throws in the end zone it's just inches away from not shrugging him off but getting hit and tonight there was a lot of getting hit now the question though is I think with Kevin O'Connell how much of this tonight is just hey that's life in the big city with a backup quarterback, how much of this tonight is just, Hey, that's life in the big city with a backup quarterback. And how much of it is when we're looking at the head coach

in some of these games that are tight games, that the situational mastery is not what we'd want it to be. I thought that a lot of the fourth down decisions tonight were pretty good. I think I would have gone for that fourth and seven as well, just based on where they are on the field and the situation in the game. And it didn't work out, but I didn't have a problem. The NFL is more aggressive than it's ever been. And so, you know, you're looking for a spark there for your offense. That's okay. At the end of the game, I understood why they punted. Hey, by the way, Ryan Wright, not Mr. Wright this year has not been very good punting the football. That punt is horrendous at the end of the game.

Cannot be overlooked that you expect the punter to do a much better job than kicking it out of bounds at like the 20-yard line. Still, you have a chance to end the game and to win a game that you don't deserve to win. And you get run, run, short pass. O'Connell did say after the game that he dialed up a play that was supposed to go down the field, but they checked out of it because they didn't like the look that they got. Okay. I guess that's fine. But the two runs that went absolutely nowhere when the bears put all of their big people out there, that's an opportunity to run a play action to try to put, you know, put the final nail in their coffin. Because if you get one first down, you end that football game. And he decided to leave it up to fate, leave it up to a punt, leave it up to one of the best

running quarterbacks you'll ever see in your life, Justin Fields, and a lot of space. You know, when you're talking about guys going deep down the field, coverage dropping way back, that's when a running quarterback like Justin Fields can start moving the ball. And then somebody gets open by the way, DJ Moore is amazing. He is incredible at football when they have Caleb Williams, that's going to be a problem. But you see a lot of that, like at the end of games with running quarterbacks where they can make a difference. He was able to do that. So it ties back into, was it a game plan problem? I thought they did not stick with the run very well. Was it something that Kevin O'Connell was trying to do by putting too much on Dobbs? Was the aggressiveness the issue? Because in games like the last two weeks, a major part of the reaction has been that the game management here, the play calling,

all that sort of stuff has not been very good. I have a tough time with that sometimes because it seems too easy to just be like, well, you know, they should have done everything different when the real explanation is the one that's right in front of us, but you can't do anything about it, which is who is playing quarterback tonight in Josh Dobbs. But I don't want to dismiss those things either. And I also think too, that when you have these one score games, one point, two points, whatever, that any, any button you don't push right is going to end up getting you because you're in a game where you're up by one point late to the Chicago Bears, and that's how it goes sometimes. Yeah, we can nitpick every decision that Kevin O'Connell has made

in the past two weeks on a very micro level and probably do it in a way that makes sense to a large portion of the fan base. We can dissect the decision to go for it on fourth and seven right after halftime. You said you were fine with it. I guess I was fine with it. If, if the offense had looked better at that point, I felt like it was almost like willing, like hoping that, okay, maybe this will give us a spark. And if it doesn't, then how the defense has been okay. Uh, you can question that decision

after halftime, you can question the decision to go run run pass um you know when when you're trying to put the game away and and and i'm talking about these micro things because that's what's going to happen in a close game you're going to focus on these really really minute details from the game itself but really the game itself tonight, I think the game plan as a whole felt just a little discombobulated with how you want to approach this thing. And because it was discombobulated on a macro level, then we start to talk about these things, you know, this play or that play at the end of the game, because it's so close, but I don't know, like I know Ibra does a good job of containing a quarterback and has

proven to be a good defensive coordinator in the past and okay. A disaster head coach, but a good defensive coach at that. But I still think that the, what you've seen from Josh Dobbs in this very small sample size with him as a starting quarterback of the Vikings is if you move them around, if you get him, you know, throwing off plane and off schedule and give him that ability, you know, in, you know, designed rollouts, he's, he's much more effective. It cuts down one side of the field where you don't have to read the other side of the field. Like you do, if you're

in a drop back pass situation. And to that point, I think that's where more of the questionable decisions on Kevin O'Connell's part lies more than just dissecting this play or that play throughout a game. I think it was a holistic thing that this game plan from the jump just didn't work. The first play of the game was a shot down the field. Great. I love the aggression, but then he, like he said, then you're in a second and long and all of a sudden you're in a third and long, then you've only run three plays for the entire first quarter because of Chicago had the ball the whole time. So I just think that there could have been more of a concerted effort to put this guy in a position to succeed in a way that, you know, he can succeed in. And we've seen it in that two games, three games now, four games now

stretch. Um, what makes Josh Dobbs go is his ability to kind of move around and make things happen and I know that you're not just going to be able to do that for for the duration of his his time as the starting quarterback of the Vikings but it felt like tonight Kevin O'Connell wanted to turn Josh Dobbs back into this pocket passer that he had in Kirk Cousins and he wanted him to read the whole field and the timing was off because Josh Dobbs is not there yet with with the timing with his receivers and I think the grasp of the offense as a whole there's a reason the first two weeks worked out so well it's because they were unpredictable it's because defenses didn't know how to defend them because Josh Dobbs is really just running around there and making

plays I get that's unsustainable but I think on on a level of this whole game, if we're looking at it from a bird's eye view, I have more issue with the way it was coached from a game plan dimension rather than this play or that play throughout the game. Folks, I hope you've enjoyed listening to us talk about prize picks this year, but if you've missed it, here's how it works. You go to prizepicks.com and it is simple. You pick either more or less between two and six players stat projections, and that's it. Now you're playing.

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code purple daily fantasy sports made easy so that that is where I was giving the bears probably a lot of credit because there were a few bootlegs that they ran that the bears covered extremely well, much better than the saints covered down the field. And there were times where they ran a bootleg and then they came up field and they were there in Josh Dobbs his face and he's getting hit as he's trying to get it to his check down option. Now, to your point, though, about working with Josh Dobbs and what he has here, there's only so much that you can change an offense in the middle of the season when you don't have a bye week,

which they're going to have to look at very closely. And a lot of the offense is based on, first, very good pass protection. If you go back and look at Matthew Stafford, his incredible year in 2021, they win the Superbowl with the Rams. They had the number one pass protection team in the NFL by PFF and the Vikings pass protection against the saints was great against the Packers was great tonight. It was not. And when it's not, and you're asking receivers to go down the field. I mean, this is a downfield passing offense. This is not a quick game offense.

Like we saw from Chicago to the point of complete absurdity where they were just terrified of Justin Fields throwing the ball down the field at all. During that game, it was all screens, all quick passes, which I understood because that's had some success, but it didn't really tonight. The point being though, I looked at this stat this week that since joining the Vikings, Josh Dobbs only threw about 20% of his passes in quicker than 2.5 seconds. And that was by far the lowest in the league over the last three weeks. Almost every team is getting their quarterback, having the ball coming out. Now, some of that is of course, him not knowing the offense and having to wait to see guys come open, which I think the timing on the first interception is off. It's not thrown with anticipation. The timing on the interception

with Addison is off. It's not thrown maybe at the right speed for him to come into the ball out of the break. These are some things that maybe could be sharpened, but also if you're going to have him as your quarterback and you start to see that, all right, they're not letting him run and scramble and escape. They're doing a good job of pressuring. That's where you're going to need the quick game, which they don't have. Or you're going to have to lean on the run game. And, hey, poor Alexander Madison. We beat him up pretty good this year.

He was great tonight for the most part he was great he was ripping off 10 yard runs but they wouldn't stick with it if there was a negative run i would have bet you every dime i have if there's a two yard run the next play is a pass because that's just kevin o'connell he's a former quarterback he's a pass first guy which i totally buy into as the right way to play in the year 2023 into 2024. But on a night like this, where you're running is actually working and they are attacking you on these downfield passing game stuff.

There has to be an adjustment there throughout the game to start working the ball to TJ Hockinson earlier. Like TJ Hockinson was a total non-factor until the end of the game. When those two start to get on the same page, we also have to point out by the way, Jordan Addison. And this is something he said after the game to our friend, Andrew Kramer had the quotes on this had talked to him at his locker.

He was at his locker with his head down for a really long time. So long to the point where we had to go in and to talk with Kevin O'Connell, Andrew stayed behind and talk to him. And he acknowledged he is not played very well these last couple of weeks, but especially tonight, this was a miserable game for him down the sideline. He probably should make that catch. He should get his head around, which I think O'Connell talked about in the details of making that catch. I mean, there, there, there were some plays where I think Addison really feels like it should, you know, he should have that back. Might be, there, there, there were some plays where I think Addison really feels like it should, you know, he should have that back might be a bit of a rookie wall type of thing might be

a bit of everybody hitting a wall type of thing. And I felt that came together tonight in, in, in many different forms. This was a, if you pointed something that's not the defense and you blame it, you're right. I, and also Greg Joseph was fine. He didn't do anything wrong today. Yeah. I mean, that's true. I, with Addison, I think that's the rookie wall, totally a thing. Um, I think sometimes it can be chalked up as a way to kind of excuse, you know, lack of production at times, but I think when we've asked a lot of this kid this year, and they've asked him to be the best receiver on the team for a month and a half now without the best player on the team,

Justin Jefferson on the sideline, I think that's a lot. I think that's a lot to kind of put on a kid's shoulders. And it's probably hard to change up the man throwing you the football midway through the year. Addison works through all of camp and OTAs with Kirk Cousins and then through the season and then has Josh Dobbs come in. So his production over the past couple of weeks has not been good enough. But it's also all of this to me goes back to what we talked about

at the beginning, that it's just the reality they're living in with the situation of losing their quarterback and their best player um but Addison tonight in small chunks like was a a big reason why the game got out out of hand in the way it did just catch that ball I get it the timing's off but hits him in the hands and then in the head and then goes into the sky and that's an interception that frankly, I don't think is, I think it's more on Addison than Josh Dobbs. I get the, the, the pass downfield and the Vikings end up scoring on this drive late in the game. So it doesn't really matter, but anytime you can get an explosive like that, it gives everyone some juice. Um, and it felt like the wind was out of the sails. Josh Dobbs did not

throw that ball in ball in the correct position when Addison got behind the cornerback and was wide open, but Addison did not get his head around it. There were weird mental lapses from him tonight that you just didn't see for two weeks, up until these last two weeks. I think that also goes back to what TJ Hawkinson was talking about after the game, is that this is as late as you can possibly have a bye in the NFL.

And this team is banged up physically, but I think they're also kind of banged up mentally. And I think they just need a break and a reset. And that doesn't mean I'm making an excuse for them and that everything's going to be awesome. And they're going to win five straight games coming out of the bye week to close out the season. But I do think that there is something to be said about it's been a grind at this point. They're getting beat up. They've kind of battled through a lot of adversity in a way that I didn't think they would be able to. And starting off slow, winning five straight, losing your quarterback, losing your best receiver,

and they've kind of just kept pushing along. I think you're seeing it start to catch up to them. And I think losses obviously compound that frustration. I think this bye week comes at a really good time for them. I think, I don't know if everything's going to be fixed coming out of it, but I think after these two losses by a total of three points, um, one of the best things you could probably do is get away for a little bit. And I think it's going to help them to have that time to rest, recover, but also get on the same page, um, with everyone that that's coming in. So, uh, the chat did actually find a way to blame Greg Joseph, uh, because they did not kick a 60 yard field goal there at the end of

the game, which I think I would not have gone for either. I mean, you're probably only pulling out that card unless you have to make that to win the game. The punt decision, there's all the analytics that get thrown out on Twitter. It seemed to be pretty even between punting and going for it at that point. And they decided to punt it away. And I guess, I don't know that you need a better punt at that point. And going for it would have been in that moment with the way Josh Dobbs had played to me, pretty stunning. And I'm not sure you could trust Dobbs in that situation for just about anything. If you're going to trust him, you're going to trust him to start that drive, to throw on the first play of that drive and finish

out the game there. That's where I think there is some criticism to be had of the inconsistencies of Kevin O'Connell when it comes to these decisions. Are we going to be aggressive? Are we not going to be aggressive? It sort of waves in the wind a little bit in dare i say mike zimmer fashion at times at times now of course you're going to see a lot of you know kevin o'connell criticism for this game in particular and i'm not going to move off of where i have felt about his coaching job this year i think it's been overall tremendous. I think he's solidified himself very much as a long-term coach of this organization, but that feeling is not going to last very long. If they go to Vegas and lose to Aiden O'Connell, or if they go to Cincinnati and lose to Jake

Browning and play a game like this. And I think what this game does is it suddenly opens the door to all those possibilities, right? Where, when they got the win against the saints, we went, that's one of the toughest wins that you could get because, you know, you're coming in off that, you know, Dobbs whole thing, the emotional thing, and you step to the plate and you lit up the new Orleans saints who are not a terrible team. And then all you got to do is beat these easy teams that are coming forward here for you. And once you don't beat one of those easy teams, then I go, well, who exactly can I predict that you are going to beat for sure? This, I will say this though.

And of course, I mean, everything is sort of like so obvious that it's almost hard to say because one of the things that we like to try to do is dive deep into the moments that cost them a football game and so forth and say, you know what? Here's what makes me a real smart football man. It was actually this play, this decision, this person, Justin Jefferson's not playing and he will play. But eventually, just like with a backup quarterback, eventually missing the best receiver in football was going to show up and be a big problem.

And it was a little bit against Denver, and it absolutely was here tonight because so many times we saw in just the Jefferson era, 2020 to five weeks ago or seven weeks ago, we saw terrible offensive performances, disjointedointed pressure on the quarterback problems everywhere. And here comes Superman flying in with the Cape to make an insane play, go for a touchdown, win you a football game, take you to the playoffs last year, keep you in a

playoff race, whatever it might be. And it just, it's not there. And you lose these last two games by three total points. You cannot tell me that Justin Jefferson's not worth. And you lose these last two games by three total points. You cannot tell me that Justin Jefferson's not worth three points. So, again, in the chat, they're going to say we're making excuses. Oh, no, they should have won this game. This is embarrassing. This is pathetic that they lost this game. There is no excuse whatsoever.

This is an abomination of a loss. I would say Kevin O'Connell's easily worse loss. This is the Indianapolis game. If they didn't come back last year, it's that bad. So don't mistake that. The point is that Justin Jefferson coming back down the stretch is going to be a big difference from what we saw here tonight. And it's almost like, as you said, a lot of things just caught up to them here tonight. Now, let me ask you this coming out of the bi-week, who would be your starting quarterback? My starting quarterback would

be Josh Dobbs. Um, and I get it. I understand why Kevin O'Connell did not commit to him tonight. I was a little bit surprised when the question comes out, are you going to make a change at quarterback that he left it so open-ended? It felt like when you can kind of, and Kevin O'Connell does this, he talks himself into circles and sometimes reveals a little bit too much in the process. It felt like a really short answer that you could have said, we're going to reevaluate everything, but Josh is the starter now. Instead, he kind of started talking about Nick Mullins. He didn't bring up Jaron Hall, but I would stick with Josh Dobbs just because I've seen kind of the apex of him. And I would be trying to almost chase that. Now, if he continues to turn the ball over at an alarming rate, you have to make a change. I get it. He cannot fumble the ball like he did last

week and have exchanged mishaps with Garrett Bradbury like he did last week and throw interceptions like he did this week and still be the starting quarterback of this team. But I think, like you said, with Justin Jefferson coming back, with you getting a bye week, with him, Josh Dobbs saying, I'm going to take some time to recharge, but also dive into the playbook during this bye week. I think there's enough that we've seen to this point, at least at the peak of his powers for that two week stretch, because everything for the past couple of weeks has been, you know, a downward turn. It would be reason enough for me to continue to move forward with him as the guy.

And it's largely based on who's there after him. It's Nick Mullins, who is a backup quarterback. I know we've very much described Josh Dobbs as the same thing,'s Nick Mullins, who is a backup quarterback. I know we've very much described Josh Dobbs as the same thing, but Nick Mullins, I don't think there's really anything there except for a guy who's going to manage the game and not turn the ball over, which would have won you the game tonight. I understand that. But I think if you are serious about making the playoffs and hoping to build to something, you know, heading into the playoffs, your ceiling is raised by just having Josh Dobbs as the guy. Jaron Hall, it would have been fun in another life to see that play out.

But he's the third quarterback on this team. So if it's not Josh Dobbs, it will be Nick Mullins. But I don't think it should be Nick Mullins. I think it should be Josh Dobbs. I think i think so uh but i also wonder if we've gotten enough and i think uh o'connell said something like we've gotten enough of a package of plays on tape to really evaluate uh josh dobbs and if the idea is that dobbs in order to win has to do crazy stuff with his legs every single week

because he can't throw on time because he can't throw accurately because he is going to throw interceptable passes. And there was almost a pick six, by the way, which was maybe his worst throw of the night. And the guy just flat out dropped it, but he is just cruising to the end zone, uh, on that play. So there were a lot of throws that are behind in the timing. They're inaccurate. And that had been the case to some extent for some other throws throughout the first few games. But if this is what it's going to look like when the opponent has a few weeks of tape to game plan for how to get him into that mode, then you're probably just going to lose a lot of games the rest of the way. And Nick Mullins has won games before in the NFL, but you know, it kind of goes back to a little

bit. I was having, uh, just be, uh, reminiscing a little bit about training camp last year when it was Kellen Mon versus Sean Mannion. And we were talking about if Kirk goes down, you are just screwed. Like we're not even going to talk about the backup quarterback race because we don't talk about screwed on the show was exactly what I said. And they eventually get Mullins and you're not exactly screwed with Nick Mullins, but you kind of are. And with Josh jobs, is there any chance you go anywhere in the playoffs? If you're going to have games like this, of course there is not. And then we start to have the discussion of, is it just better if they don't make the playoffs because this is going to happen with a better team. You absolutely

cannot beat the 49ers, the Cowboys, the Eagles, and you're going to have a really tough time even beating the more mediocre teams. The Green Bay Packers right now, does anybody feel great about that when they have a defensive line that's causing a lot of problems? So this was a very much ice cold bucket of water on the idea that something case keenamy could potentially happen it is very much a week-to-week league which means that they could crush vegas and get jefferson back and we're going off we go uh but you know i i think with uh nick mullins your ceiling is probably more limited and the variance is probably more limited. And the variance is probably more limited to just the game manager.

But let me talk about this. Brian Flores' defense playing awesome. It played awesome tonight. Josh Mattel is a star, by the way. You know, people want to talk about Louis seen who cares where a guy was drafted. You found a hybrid box safety star who makes plays all the time. Just happens that he was drafted a couple of years ago and he's a sixth round pick but their defense has come together brilliantly around brian floris and they're gonna have to ask themselves can we game manage try to run the football with ty chandler more involved which feel free feel free uh they didn't really do that today but you can and sort of switch the philosophy a little bit here from where it was with Kirk and where it was early in Dobbs, which is a lot of pushing the

ball downfield to maybe you have to play safer and play to your defense and not turn the ball over and maybe take a look to our East with the Pittsburgh Steelers and how they've won a lot of games and overcome missing quarterbacks and bad quarterbacks through the years that there's now time to make a potential adjustment here because this defense can win games by itself. And it almost did tonight. I don't put any of it on them for what they did, but they turned the ball over. They made Justin Fields look ridiculous on a lot of plays. They sacked him. They beat him up. They stripped him. They may have concussed him at one point. He stayed in the game. I mean, but they really played a great football game. They stopped the run. They largely held DJ Moore in check. This is a defense that can win a lot of games down the stretch that could beat the Packers on defense that could

potentially even if they pressure Jared Goff, beat the Lions on defense, they may have to go to that type of universe to switch their philosophy entirely as they go down the stretch here. I understand that. And if that's the way they go and that's the way it kind of plays out, I guess I get that because you're right. The defense has kind of done a full 180 into not just being an improving defense not just being a wow they're better than we thought like they're a good defense now and they've turned players in to stars that i frankly thought were special teams players like josh metellus like dj wanham who's you know complimented Daniil Hunter quite well. Daniil Hunter is a superstar. He has taken that contract dispute and playing on his one year, bet on himself kind of thing and knocked it out

of the park. The man's going to get paid and frankly, the Vikings should be the ones doing it. You can't let that guy walk out of the building. So yeah, yeah, you're right. Like if that's the way to decide to go out of the bi-week where it's like Nick Mullins, just don't screw up and the defense is going to figure it out. I would understand it, but I just would keep going back to like Josh Dobbs is what he is. And I get that he's turnover prone. And I understand that that's just going to probably be part of the game.

You're never going to get that out of him completely. But I also would kind of lean back to the fact that he's been here for like 25 days. You hope that you can build towards something with like an upward trajectory where you're at least more dangerous. Because I think the ceiling with Josh Dobbs is why I would continue to play him because I think your ceiling with Nick Mullins is maybe sneaking into the playoffs, maybe. And you're sneaking into the playoffs on a way in a way that is the defense

just has to continue to be awesome and amazing. And, and I think that's possible, but I think to actually be a threat, which I'm kind of talking myself into circles now, because are you going to be a threat with the quarterback play that we saw from Josh Dobbs tonight? Probably not. But I would lean on the fact that I would still go for, you know,

a home run rather than a single. And I think there is a bigger potential, even if it's pretty minuscule of hitting a home run with Josh Dobbs as your quarterback than with Nick Mullins, who you will have then admittedly been like, okay, we are taking the ceiling down a notch, and just this guy's our game manager. Don't screw up. It's kind of a chicken or the egg thing,

because honestly, neither option's great, but I think one option gives you a higher ceiling potentially and probably with that more variance to lose games but I think if Josh Dobbs is your quarterback coming out of the bye you at least give him a chance to build up to something if he turns the ball over 100 times in Vegas then sure move on to Mullins this show is being brought to you by BetterHelp folks the holidays are an exciting time for buying gifts and spending time with family, but you have to remember that sometimes the best gift is the one you can give yourself. If you're finding the holiday season tough on you, maybe the best gift is paying a little more attention to yourself,

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and i don't think we have to completely remove the words bridge quarterback from our uh lexicon here that he could potentially play the next couple of games really well go into the final few with a chance to make the playoffs a chance to be somebody that as he gets more comfortable in the offense, gets Jefferson back that you could go forward with on your team and pair with a quarterback that you draft. Certainly tonight, I think Kevin O'Connell wanted to drive to whatever town Kirk Cousins lives in, grab him, pull him back and say, stand back there with one leg, buddy, just get rid of the football and we'll be good to go. So I'm sure that Kirk was watching at home being like texting his agent, you know, let, let them know that they miss Kirk a little bit as if we've never seen Kirk meltdown

against the bears, by the way. Uh, but that's neither here nor there. The point just being that when you have a quarterback like this, who does have a wide range of outcomes, you need a bigger sample size probably to figure out if he can be the bridge quarterback or even a backup or somebody you want to keep on the team when you draft a quarterback next year or whatever you're going to do. There's also how bad do you want to make the playoffs? Because I feel like if you really badly want to make the playoffs, not find out about Dobbs, but just want to make the playoffs because I feel like if you really badly want to make the playoffs, not find out about Dobbs, but just want to make the playoffs, you might turn to Nick Mullins here and say, let's play safe. Let's run the ball. Let's run a few play actions, get the ball to Jefferson,

then try to make the playoffs, which leads me to maybe the final point of the night, unless you have any other, uh, any other things, any other observations? No, you good. Okay. Well, what, you know, uh, other than that, this was Iowa, Nebraska, the NFL version. And I, uh, am in pain from watching the football game other than that. And I am sorry to everybody who watched it. A lot of bad football this week, a lot of strange refereeing this week, which was also into this game as well. I'm surprised nobody brought up that, uh, brought up that a intentional grounding for Josh Dobbs was not an intentional grounding for Justin Fields later in the game. And why?

Because shrugs, because we don't know. And Kevin O'Connell said he was asking for an explanation, but the answer was, eh? Like, vibes? Like, we just didn't feel like it at the time. The refereeing, I can't say it's never been worse but it is a disaster okay that's the last thing uh and maybe if it's reffed a little different they move back like 12 yards and lose time off the clock and then they don't complete

the pass and then i don't know but of course there's no excuses you can make after a game like this here's the question and it's a tough one. And I want everybody to prepare themselves for is a lot of people still watching. It's after midnight. Thank you so much for this. So just take a second, just prepare yourself for this question. Is it better that they lost tonight? I mean, for the longterm, no delusions, no talking yourself into Dobbs, no talking yourself into, well, you know, if we just make the playoffs and get booted in the first round, then this season's a success. That if you keep your eyes on the prize, which is winning a championship with this team, eventually we know how to get there. We know what the path has to be.

The path has to be drafted in Jaden Daniels or whoever the heck else you're drafting, building around that player, building on the strengths of this team, which now looks pretty good on defense with lots of young emerging players, has the offensive weapons that are there, and this quarterback situation that needs to be resolved at some point. This game removes delusions of what you think you can be. If you win this game 24-13, you're like, all right, playoffs, baby. Who cares about Denver? let's all move on but this one says no no not so fast you're not philly you're not dallas you're not san francisco you're not even detroit so what are you just another team floating around in the nfc trying to survive and losing a game to the freaking Bears. What do you think? Yeah, I could talk myself into that

because at the beginning of the year, I said the worst thing this team could be is a middling team that could sniff the playoffs and either barely miss them or make them and get booted and be right in the middle of the draft, either needing to trade the farm to move up or have to just sit there and hope that a guy like Kenny Pickett falls to you and then you just draft him and just cross your fingers and hope he's the guy. That was the worst thing that could

possibly happen at the beginning of the year. And maybe I had been blinded by the five-week winning streak. That seemed very unlikely. Maybe I was blinded by the five-week winning streak. That seemed very unlikely. Maybe I was blinded by the pastronaut zooming in here on a rocket and shooting the Vikings to the moon for a little bit. But, yeah, when you bring it up like that, keeping your eye on the prize, which the prize is always another quarterback, right, and the best way to get that other quarterback, I saw the chat wants the Vikings to trade for Justin Herbert. That would be great. I mean, I'm sure Casey would

do that tomorrow if he could figure out how to do it. But the most realistic way to get a quarterback is to draft one and it's to draft one high. The percentages of the quarterbacks that are taken higher in the draft hitting is obviously going to be better than if you're drafting one in you know the late teens or the 20s so yeah maybe it was good that they lost tonight maybe when we take a full step back from this game and we wake up tomorrow morning and people are no longer frustrated that Cairo Santos alone beat the Vikings tonight with four field goals 12 to 10 that was the score um that yeah not so bad maybe they'll look back on the game in denver and say maybe it wasn't so bad that courtland sutton caught the ball over mckay blackman and then started this losing streak that took you through the end of the season and

now you're 6 and 11 and you're drafting 12th and with the ability to move up so yeah i guess if the goal all along was to either make the playoffs and prove you're a contender, which they did look like at times with Kirk, but I do think that the other shoe was going to drop at some point with this team. Um, then yeah, maybe a loss tonight wasn't so bad. Um, but it feels kind of weird to talk about that. Um, when two weeks ago I was ready to kind of ride this rocket to the moon with Josh Dobbs because I believe that this maybe it's just because it was a different guy at quarterback and it was fun to watch football for a little bit with the guy running around and making plays and

not just succumbing to the pressure in his face anytime it was there. But yeah, that probably blinded me from what is the ultimate goal, which is getting your quarterback in the 2024 NFL draft. And that's still alive and well because of the game tonight. It reminds me of such seasons as 2020 and 2021. But the difference is in 2020 and 2021, there was pressure on Mike Zimmer and Rick Spielman to win in those seasons. And they had pushed the chips to the middle of the table by doing things like trading for Yanni Ngakwe, signing players, bringing back Everson Griffin and Sheldon Richardson and all sorts of wild stuff that they did trading for Chris Herndon. Ah, the memories that they did. But this year, this year is different. This year they moved on from those

players and that matters to this calculation. Now, if Kirk Cousins was still the quarterback, I would say, look, you got to make the playoffs. You got to give yourself a chance. But even then we saw numerous times where Cousins got them back and pulled them out of a one in five start, pulled them out of an O and three start only to have the team fade eventually, which is why you see those stats when a team goes on three and you see like, oh man, but, but our team got back to 500 and even ahead of 500. So, Hey, we're going to be the team that bucks those trends. Why does it not happen? Because you have to keep playing great for a really long time. And when you have

holes in your roster, when you lose your starting quarterback, it's extremely hard to do. So what this game may end up doing in hindsight, and we'll see because this is going to be our final discussion in a second, but in hindsight, we may look back at it just like the tweet or the chat that we got last week, where the person said the season was actually over when Kirk got hurt. We just didn't know it for a couple more weeks. That could very, very well be the case. It might be one where 10 years from now we go, remember that time Dobbs showed up and it was crazy for like two weeks. And we all wrote about how he's an astronaut and stuff. Very, very well could be the case with this team. And that is the final question. Oh, and of course,

I mean, you guys know my opinion. If they lose every game for the rest of the way and they draft their quarterback and they still have this young roster, they still have this setup, this situation, it's better for them. There's not even a debate. It's not even a question. It's just annoying to say because there's a lot of football left to go and nobody just wants your team to lose or miss the playoffs. But there's no objective way to talk about this, to say that like, it's a bad thing. If this falls completely apart, it just feels awful on a night where we had to watch this. Um, so anyway, because look, Dobbs was never going to be your quarterback for next year and take you to a championship. It's just not going to happen unless you're living in some sort of other planet, so to speak. So that, that like, I look at this and go, welcome to reality fellas.

This is where your team actually is not where you thought you might be after two weeks ago. It's actually where we thought you'd be at the beginning of the year. I think I thought they would be like 500 at right now. And here we are. So how do we think it plays out? Do we think they come out of the buy, get a couple of big wins, play green Bay for a playoff spot, beat the lions, get into the post season. Or do we think that Dobbs mania officially dies in Vegas that Nick Mullins is coming off the bench, not winning either. Uh, or do we think? Or do we think they stumble into the final week and go to Detroit with a chance to make the playoffs? How do you think this ends up playing out?

I think the only way it could possibly play out is that they continue to give you hope after the bye week. They win a game, Josh Dobbs looks great, or Nick Mullins looks okay and the defense looks great. Justin Jefferson comes back, you win a couple of games, and either you barely miss the playoffs or you make them and get crushed in the wildcard round. I think that's the only way this could possibly play out. I think if you took Kweisi and fed him truth serum and said,

how would you prefer this plays out for the future of the franchise? He would say, I would like us to lose every game the rest of the way. He will never say that publicly because he would be fired tomorrow. If he said that the wills would not stand for that. But I think most people who are rational can agree with you and say, losing every game, the rest of the way is the best way to go because it gives you a higher chance to hit on a quarterback of the future. Um, If that's the case, then man, those two weeks of Josh Dobbs were fun, but wouldn't you rather be four and 13 than six and 11? Anyway, do I think that the Vikings are going to lose all five games and be six and 11 and

finish the season on a seven? What would be a seven game losing streak? I did not. I think there's probably a combination of Jefferson coming back, whatever quarterback you decide being able to work with this offense, which is still pretty good. Even if it hasn't been for the last game and a half, the defense is still good enough. The teams you're playing are pretty bad. I mean, you're playing Aiden O'Connell and Jake Browning. You probably should win one of those games. I get that you also are trotting on a backup quarterback, so it's probably a crap shoot.

But I think the way that this franchise has just proven to be year after year after year is like, how else is this going to end? They're going to barely sneak into the playoffs and they're going to lose in the wild card or they're barely going to miss the playoffs and they're going to drop like 17. Yeah, I would guess that they finish just out of the playoff race. Uh, that nine. Yeah. And if you've looked at the Packers schedule, also watch the way the Packers have been playing lately that, uh, you know, they're, they're playing pretty well. And the Rams are another team that has a very easy schedule that's coming for them. Seattle has a

very tough schedule, so it might be who falls apart worse, the Vikings or Seattle. If they win the next two, then they only have to win one of the final two to get to nine, which makes you think, okay, they might be able to get to nine wins. But this one is such a game changer. I mean, you win this game, you go into the bi-week and then you're in the driver's seat and you're feeling like you are cruising to the playoffs even if you have some bumps along the way now they have to actually play really good football they can't have this happen they have to have a winning record the rest of the way in order to get to the postseason and it just feels like a lot of the the gas came out of the tank tonight in this loss it was like okay you you're running on fumes going into the bi-week, but can you come back and find something else and beat these two teams and then

just need one out of three at the end. But the three are hard Detroit, you know, you can all, you know, talk about Detroit the last couple of weeks, but Detroit is a better team than the Vikings. It's not going to be very easy to even get one out of two wins against them. So I think very realistic after what we've seen the last two weeks to think that eight, nine is probably the most likely scenario or nine and eight. And then you're talking about playoff scenarios, the playoff calculators and all those things, the ESPN playoff machine. And then we'll just be kind of reminded of all the years with the Vikings. And at the end of the day, the only reason it's different is because they reset

the roster. And then we'll have a very interesting conversation about the quarterback in the off season. So it is a, it's a miserable, no good, pathetic embarrassment, complete joke of a loss that never should have happened when you hold the opposing team to four field goals. And Will Raggetts had this stat that he posted on Twitter that has only happened like four times in Vikings history that they have lost games where they gave up no touchdowns. And I wonder if most of those happened at the Met with like the snow on the ground and the mud and everything else.

This was a shameful loss for this team and the way that they played. And there, there isn't a single person who doesn't deserve blame on the offensive side, but it just, I think makes everything so much harder and, and takes away a lot of conversations that we were having that would be very different had they won this game. So I wish I had a cheery note for you and something like,

hey, but you know, this is happening. Oh, I'm going to be in Vegas. So that's cool. Like I'm going to be at Circa in Las Vegas. If anybody wants to come out now that maybe bought your plane tickets after the first couple of Dobbs games, then we'll see you there. But any final thoughts, Dane? Just a horrendous game all around. Um, brutal. I feel like lost in this podcast was just a little

bit how brutal the game was to watch. So sorry you had to watch it. The podcast was fun to talk about and process in real time. But the game itself, man, you imagine people stayed up and watch that. They stayed up and watched us talk about it. So thank you to so many of you who decided to be here and look, I mean, if every time we think we've got it figured out, very true, something changes.

So we're going to have a lot of time to process here on the channel. Nothing will change. The content machine will continue to roll along and roll along. So thanks everybody again for watching slash listening. And well, we'll just see what this team has in store for us. And again, very sorry that you had to watch this football game, but we had a good time, I guess here. Sort of.

Thanks everybody.