Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Legit Vikings-Trey Lance buzz and TJ Hockenson wants how much????

Episode Date: August 23, 2023

Matthew Coller breaks down the 49ers making Trey Lance their No. 3 QB and searching for potential options for a trade... which naturally draws connections to the Vikings. Plus TJ Hockenson wants to reset the TE market??? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to another episode of Purple Insider, Matthew Collar here and we've got a lot to talk about, don't we? Going live a little bit earlier today because there's a lot going on here with the Minnesota Vikings. Also, I'm about to go get onto a plane and go to Las Vegas where I'll be doing the show for two days. So Will Raggetts is going to act as my reporter on the scene from joint practice tomorrow. And it's almost a deadlock that the minute I get on the plane, the Vikings will make a trade or a huge signing announcement or something else. So I don't know. Do you want to take a vote, everybody? Where do we start t.j hockinson or trey lance hockinson or lance because for uh those not up to date number one the san francisco 49ers have named sam darnold their

backup and of course the reports that follow immediately are that they are looking at quote options for trey lance well there's only one option and that would be to trade Trey Lance and the Minnesota Vikings have already been brought up by two insiderers. So that's going on. And then with TJ Hawkinson, I will read this verbatim from Diana Rossini, who formerly of ESPN now with the athletic, she tweeted the Vikings in tight end TJ Hawkinson have been working on an extension, but both sides are far apart per league sources. Hawkinson wants to reset the market with a historic contract extension for tight ends, has been limited at practice because of an ear infection and then back soreness,

which it popped up today as well. So sounds like Blue Wire has to pay for a flight for Wi-Fi. No, yeah, you're right about that. In-flight Wi-Fi, you mean? Yeah, that's, yeah, yep. That could be a thing that I'll have to get. Yeah, I can business expense it. So I don't know if I can go three hours out to Vegas without trying to update what's going on, because it feels like something is percolating and what's going to happen is we'll get an Adam Schefter thing and it will say the Vikings have traded for, and then it will be a backup running back or something.

Emergency podcast from the plane. I don't think is possible, but I do have noise canceling headphones that are like the super serious ones. And those are really helpful for listening to podcasts like this one. So highly suggested the next time you're in a plane. Let's talk about Trey Lance first, because this is a thing that we have debated for I don't know how long, since Trey Lance started looking not great.

It's been at least two years because the Kirk cousins things comes up every so often with the San Francisco 49ers. And as soon as there's any connection whatsoever with cousins and the 49ers, then the Trey Lance idea pops up. And even last year at the combine, wait, that was this year, this year at the combineine, wait, that was this year. This year at the Combine, there was some rumor,

and maybe it was pro football talk that put it out there, that the Vikings were talking to San Francisco about the quarterback situation and so forth. And I think it's more than just purple tinfoil hats for people to be making that connection between Trey Lance, Kirk Cousins, the Minnesota Vikings. It's always made sense on some level. Now, of course, this part takes out the Kirk Cousins element. I don't think that 10 days before the season or whatever you're trading,

you're starting quarterback for him, but the idea has now changed. So that would have been something you'd talk about in March or in April. But now Kirk Cousins is your starting quarterback. You have been insistent that you're going to make the playoffs or chase the playoffs. So, okay, we know all about the competitive rebuild thing. It comes up every single day on the show, but part of a competitive rebuild could be that the Vikings trade for Trey Lance, sit him on the bench for a year. Let's say you trade a third round or fourth round or forum, sit him on the bench for a year. And then you have the plan to potentially turn the team over to Lance next year. And if you

don't like what you see behind the scenes in practice from a year of having him, then you just say, hey, look, we lost a third or fourth round draft pick. No big deal. Moving on. And I completely see the logic from every single one of you that brings this up and has been bringing it up for some time. Hey, if the compensation isn't that high for Trey Lance, why not get him? And you never know. I, but after watching a little Trey Lance and watching our guy JTO Sullivan on the QB school, if you've watched that, if you haven't

check it out, QB school is amazing. I think I'm just out on this idea. I think I'm just out because well, number one, uh, Trey Lance has now had a pretty big sample size of being a San Francisco 49er. So it's not like even with the Josh Rosen situation where they drafted Josh Rosen and then the very next year they were turning around to trade him that made so much more sense for the Miami Dolphins because there was still a possibility that Rosen could click and become good he had only played for one year and there's lots of rookies that have had terrible first years with bad teams and then turn it around with their team and become good that was never in the cards for Josh Rosen, but at least

you could make that argument that there was still plenty of room for potential there and that lots of guys had turned it around after bad first seasons. With Trey Lance, where I'm becoming less convinced, is this is now three training camps for Trey Lance. And the team gets a really good look at you in training camp. Day after day, meetings, practices, walkthroughs, all these things. Like, they get a huge sample size on a player. If you ever wonder why the Vikings, try to think in your brain. How many times have the Vikings let someone go, and then they turned into

a great player after they let them go in camp? Well, why is that? Not because they're geniuses, but because they get a really good look at these guys. And it's really rare that you are completely out on somebody. You're totally done. You've decided they're a bust. You want to get rid of them. And then they prove you totally wrong. So from that perspective, I just don't think it's worth the effort. I don't think it's worth the cap hit of what you have to pay him for next year. I don't think that the potential is ever going to be reached. Maybe it's a Geno Smith situation.

But at least Geno Smith, as bad as Gino Smith was as a New York Jet, had his moments. I mean, we haven't seen almost anything from Trey Lance for even getting on the field. And then for a couple of training camps, he has just looked so incompetent that they would prefer to have Sam Darnold. And Sam Darnold is a great example to use where we could say that guy did have moments and he still busted out when the Carolina Panthers tried to do this same thing. All the examples that I can think of recently of when a team is done with a quarterback and he goes somewhere else have just been a bust in that other place too. If somebody's got another, I mean, what, like Vinny Testaverde,

how far back you want to go? Steve Young. So the Tampa Bay Bucks of the eighties, I mean, what, like Vinny Testaverde? How far back do you want to go? Steve Young. So the Tampa Bay Bucks of the 80s, I guess, had a few of these. Every so often, there's a situation where somebody turns it around, but usually they at least had their moments. So, I mean, like a Ryan Tannehill took the Dolphins to the playoffs, had some decent seasons, and then got better. And Rich Gannon is another example of a guy who was a decent starting quarterback and won games for the Minnesota Vikings as a starting quarterback. He won the job, played a bunch of games, won a good amount of games, and then eventually down

the road improved and became a great quarterback. But we're talking about from Trey Lance, someone who's been so bad that their team is just saying, nah, we're out. We're done. Also, it matters who's doing it. Kyle Shanahan. I don't know. You guys want to bet against Kyle Shanahan? They got Jimmy Garoppolo and he's turned into a very good quarterback and they seem to be confident in Brock Purdy. Wouldn't even be surprised if Sam Darnold plays there and ends up doing some things for Shanahan. I mean, I think this guy knows what works at the quarterback position. And if he's had a chance to be in the same room with Trey Lance for this long and is ready to let him go, I am willing to take my chances with that not working. And here's the thing. So you say, okay, well, they don't have to

give up much, but they do have to give up cap space and they also have to give up dedication you have to at least dedicate yourself to seeing if this works which means giving him some sort of chance maybe even it's in next year's training camp and you get the distraction with trey lance of being traded here before a season where you're trying to win. So I don't think that this is worth it. And it, you know, what about Bob jumping in with it's a, it's a crap shoot. It's not though, not with guys who have been this bad to start their careers. Paxton Lynch, would anybody take a shot on Paxton Lynch? He still wants to play in the NFL. Anybody former first round pick never got a chance. No, nobody. Well still wants to play in the NFL. Anybody? Former first round pick, never got a chance. No, nobody. Well, there's a reason because if you are that bad, then you're probably not going to work out. And by probably, I mean, definitely. And yes, I understand Shanahan traded up for him as a prospect who had barely played any football.

It was a risky thing to do, but the guy had played barely any football. You trade up as a prospect. There's been a lot of great prospects through the years, lots of great prospects. But when you have three years in an NFL building to learn an NFL system, and I just can't tell you, if you watch JTO Sullivan's breakdown,

I just don't think that you're going to be interested. I mean, and this is me coming from a place where I grew up, where all they did was draft quarterbacks and try to convince themselves that someday they could be something. JP Lossman, Trent Edwards, EJ Manuel, like this happened over and over again. And it just, it never works out when you get this far into things and if you compare him to Jordan Love is an example of somebody who sat for a couple years I mean that's a that's exactly right um the right here of like he should be where Jordan Love is right now that's correct he should be in a position where he's starting he should be in a

position where he is easily beating out should be in a position where he is easily beaten out these other quarterbacks who he has more talent than and not being talked about is number three. That means it's real, real low for Trey Lance. And I just don't see that it's worth it to spend the cap space, even a little bit of draft capital to take that shot. Because when you say this is kind of how like every year people try to convince me that a fifth round quarterback is a good idea. And then that player turns into Kellen Mond or Jaron Hall or the number of other Nate Stanley or whatever. It's like, well, that's what happens when you draft it. Right. I mean, every once in a while,

there's a Brock Purdy, there's a Tom Brady, and maybe someday there'll be a Trey Lance who turns into a good quarterback. But when the guy is so far off of being a starting quarterback after this long of sitting and being able to develop, I just don't see almost any chance that that's going to work out. And the other thing is too, let's say that it does. Let's say that the guy goes from the worst quarterback in the league to maybe he's like 15th. Then you have to pay him. And then what's the problem? You have the 15th best quarterback and you're paying him.

Wait, does that sound familiar to you guys? If he sits this year, you pay him for nothing. And that's not great. And then you go into next year and then he's done with his rookie contract. Then poof, there goes the advantage from the rookie contract. I just don't see this as being a good idea for Trey Lance. And I totally understand where you guys are coming from. And I wouldn't be terribly shocked if the Vikings had the same thought based on what we've

seen recently from them. They trade for Jalen Rager. They trade for Ross Blacklock. They bring in Jawan Williams. They have really been interested in former high draft picks to take a shot on. And this one would be just a roll of the dice. And that's why people bring it up is maybe it's worth a roll of the dice. And if they do it, I mean, I don't know. It's hard to overly criticize for that roll of the dice if they do it. I'm just saying from my seat,

I'd say that the juice is not worth the squeeze when it comes to this. And you're much better off going into next year's draft and taking a shot at somebody there. And I know that every time that comes up, the immediate answer is, well, wait a minute, wait a minute. They're not going to be able to draft a quarterback. They're going to win too many games. Well, number one is there are more than two quarterbacks that will be in this draft. I just don't know who. And the other part of it is there are other quarterbacks who haven't been picked one or

two that have worked out over the years. So I think I'm willing to roll that dice. And if you end up with up a creek a little bit with a journeyman backup or something as your starter, that's not where you want to be. But there's usually almost always options. Even if you ended up with a Derek Carr like situation, that's probably better than wasting your time with someone like Trey Lance, who is like 99% not to work out when you get to this point, or at least not for a long

time. So the only argument is the guy hasn't played much football. And that's true. That's true. He has been so injured. But then you're going, wait, he's been so injured. Is that a good argument? Probably it is not. And physical tools, we just watched Malik Willis play against the Vikings for a couple practices. Is Malik Willis not just like Trey Lance and an incredibly gifted physical player

who cannot diagnose what he's seeing and execute it. And that's what I saw from Trey Lance when he practiced last year. I mean, I've mentioned it on the show before that was part of my case against it throughout the summer. It was like, I don't know. I mean, if you were going to do it back in March and it was going to be Trey Lance is our quarterback, Heller high water, Kirk is in San Francisco. Here we go. That I could have gotten into because if it went horribly, you draft number one overall or number two or your Carolina and you could trade up or whatever. But now that we've got to this point, you've got to pay him for a year to sit then hope he becomes something are you still drafting a quarterback and then if he works out you're paying him but what then you're trading your other guy like to me it just doesn't really fit but we will see sometimes when the

whole world is kind of on top of something like this you know it comes to fruition because it's sort of a worst kept secret and maybe they have a different evaluation based on what they saw in practice from last year. But I am not buying into this idea that Trey Lance is a good idea for the Vikings. So happy to get more of your feedback. But let me move to the other major topic of the day, which is TJ Hawkinson. So I read the tweet, but if you didn't hear me read the tweet, let me see if I can pull up the tweet. Okay. I don't have it now. Diana Rossini saying that TJ Hawkinson wants to reset the market and become presumably the highest paid tight end in

the NFL. I'm going to say, if that's the case, then we might just end up being at a standstill for a while. The official stance, as many of you know, of Purple Insider has been extend TJ Hawkinson. But when I look at the projections of the tight end market versus where the franchise tag is, so you have Darren Waller making 17 a year. You've got to clear that to keep TJ Hawkinson. I think TJ Hawkinson is one of the 10 best tight ends in the league, but it's a little bit like the quarterback conversation where Patrick Mahomes, Joe Burrow, and Josh Allen are number one, two, and three. But the difference between them and like number seven is really big. It's way bigger than number seven and number 15, right? I think it's that way with

tight ends. George Kittle, Travis Kelsey, probably Darren Waller are up on a different echelon. Waller is a downfield threat, which is very unique. And Kelsey averages 14 yards per reception and is on the same page with the greatest quarterback of a generation. So that's different. And then George Kittle is an absolutely dominant blocker. He's basically like a version of Rob Gronkowski in some ways because he is so dominant in blocking. I look at TJ Hawkinson as being a much more one-dimensional type of receiving tight end. And that is still a compliment to him because he's a great receiving tight end. It's not just okay at it. He's really good at it. And I think that his chemistry with Kirk Cousins matters. I think that setting up the future quarterback situation with the best tight end and security blankets you can have matters.

But everything has a price. And if this is the case, and I'm always hesitant because of the spin that can happen with language, with insiders and stuff like that. That sounds to me like that's a team kind of thing. When they say he wants to reset the market, I don't think his agent would put out there, oh yeah, we're going to reset the market. Watch us go. We'll bleed those Vikings dry. So that sounds more like a team side of things that they would be saying, hey, his price is too

high. That's the problem. And it's always hard to know the exact truth when it comes to this. There is a number in my mind that is a very clear thumbs up, do that. There you go. And I think that that is what Evan Ingram got. And I, and I don't think, I think that he's better than Evan Ingram, but I don't think he's so wildly better or different than Evan Ingram or what he was last year for the Jaguars that he has a case to be with those other guys. So I'm pulling up this right now, Evan Ingram, $41 million. Uh, let me get the exact contract 41 overall, and he's 29. So he's a little older. So it was a three-year extension, $41 million. Let's see.

How much is guaranteed? Okay, trying to get the entire thing here. Goes through 2026. Has cap hits. This is very reasonable, actually. Has cap hits of $5 million this year, seven next year, and then 19 in 2025, which they could probably work around. So Ingram has a very, very reasonable contract, and his total guarantees are $24 million.

That sounds about right to me. Hunter Henry got $25 million guaranteed, $37 million overall. But George Kittle, you're talking about a $75 million contract. Mark Andrews was $30 million guaranteed. That's pretty high, but also fairly reasonable. I think that if you're able to give him a reasonable contract in the Evan Ingram range, in the, in the range of someone like what Hunter Henry got, let me look at just average per year. That's easier than going through all these details. So yeah, you have Waller at 17 Kittle at 15 kelsey 14 dallas goddard 14 i mean dallas goddard there's a there's a good comparison to tj hawkinson 14 million dollars evan ingram is 13.7 if you're

not in the range of around 14 to 15 million then it's a little bit too high. And I think what we're seeing maybe in training camp, Josh Oliver has been really good. Surprisingly good. I still go back to wondering if they gave Oliver all that money because he was a guy they identified that could be a future tight end. Folks, there is no crazier time in my schedule than the fall season. And let me tell you, it is tough to find myself a good and healthy meal.

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So this is what I referenced about pro football talk. It was sort of a not well-kept secret that at the combine, the Vikings were talking to the 49ers about this exact situation. But in the spring, it would have made sense. Now it doesn't make sense. Like in the spring, okay, first of all, Lance hasn't had a terrible training camp in preseason that got him to the number three quarterback situation. So we have new information. That's pretty important. The other part is that at that time you're doing competitive rebuild, you're trading away cousins, bringing in Trey Lance, and then seeing what happens.

And that to me would make a lot of sense. All right. So you're going to see what happens, but if it goes bad, that's actually good. Right now it's different because now you're in a position where you're not trading Kirk cousins to the 49ers. He's playing quarterback for the Vikings this year. So that means you sit Trey Lance. And if you sit Trey Lance a whole year, okay, you're paying him for this year. And then you're just what not drafting a quarterback and going with Trey Lance and just rolling those dice for a guy that San Francisco can't seem to wait to get rid of it. Things have changed within the last six months. I would have supported that idea all the way back then. Now I see it as being different. Play out your competitive rebuild, try to make the playoffs

With a good team that you have right now And then draft a quarterback next year Because even in the case that he's decent Then you're going to have to negotiate A bigger contract with him And even if he's mediocre Like Daniel Jones was last year What did he get?

37 million? Even if someone is mediocre you have to pay him 40 million dollars a year i yeah i don't know i don't know uh tj is much better than evan ingram well you know when we say things like that on the show we uh try to figure it out whether that's actually true or not how much better than evan ingram is he I mean for one he and Evan Ingram are neither of them are blockers I would say TJ Hockinson is a well below average blocker and that is one of the reasons that they decided to go out and get Josh Oliver so when we look at I think that Ingram to me so 73 catches from Ingram last year,

averaged 10 and a half yards of reception for his career, 10.7. He grades lower by PFF than TJ Hawkinson. So that is true. But in terms of like yards per catch and the impact and blocking, it's not wildly different. And in fact, their PFF grades are not that wildly different. It was a 65 for Ingram last year, a 70 for Hawkinson. And part of that is just the fact that there's some drops mixed in and that it's not a guy who is going to make an impact in blocking. But 10.6 yards per reception overall last year, but only 8.7 as a Viking.

He was very much an underneath type of guy. Now, look, I have gone on and on and on about how much I respect TJ Hawkinson, so I'm not downplaying what you're saying. I agree with you that he's better than Evan Ingram. I think you can use him in a lot of different spots. He's very smart. He's reliable, but I think he's closer to Evan Ingram than he is Travis Kelsey or George Kittle. And I know some people think Darren Waller is overrated because he's been, um, you know, injured. Uh, but I, I don't know. I did see Darren Waller once in person and it was pretty darn impressive. Waller in 2020 was 2019 and 2020 was an absolute monster. So that's why he has that contract is because 2019 and 2020, he was well over 1100 yards, 12 yards of reception. I mean,

he was a big time player in those years, but now I'm not sure what the injuries have done to him. So, but he sets the market based on those years. And I don't think TJ Hockinson is going to average 12 yards a catch and is going to bring you 1100 yards. I think it's much more like 85 catches for 758 yards or something kind of he's surprisingly Kyle Rudolph ish, even though they're different sized players and you do have to have a limit on that price. You're also going to pay Jefferson. We assume you're going to pay Daris all we assume. Right. I mean, you do start to get to a point where you go, there's only so far we're willing to go. I also think that we heard a report the day before theil Hunter signed his extension that the Vikings were looking for trades so there is a I'm going to shut off this podcast and then they're going to sign an extension with him

and like there is an element that's very possible that because I think that you know I've told you guys through the years that one thing you have to be really wary of is reports on contract extensions because you have to consider where they come from. And a lot of times they're used to try to push somebody one way or another, but both sides probably want this. And so you have to consider that too, that some of these things, they get heated, they get contested, and then eventually they get worked out. So keep that in mind as well. Like don't, don't totally panic. I'm also looking up where Hawkinson ranks for run blocking because he's a well below average pass blocker by PFF. And, and, you know, it's, it's not always perfect, but I think that blocking is one of the best things they do. He is only slightly above Evan Ingram.

Ingram was 27th last year, Hawkinson 25th. I don't think they bring in – I mean, you can say what you want about PFF. I spent – this right here, this is coming out in October. I spent two years reporting on everything that they do. And PFF gave only Udo a 67 against the Titans. Well, that, well, that dispels the fact that I can show you guys the chapter. If you like, do we have to do this every show? I can show you guys the chapter in this book that I wrote about one of the greatest offensive

line coaches in NFL history, taking me through how he uses PFF grades. We can, we can do that if we want. So I'm not saying every PFF grade is perfect right here. There it is. It's called coach's corner. Everybody see it. There it is. Paul Alexander, one of the great offensive line coaches in the NFL took me through on the phone, how he uses their blocking grades and how I should use them as well. So I don't think that only Udo's grade being like, not quite as low as you think it should have been you watching on TV, that,

that that's going to dispel me using it to show you objectively. And unless you watched every Evan Ingram blocking play, did you, did you watch every Evan Ingram blocking play. Did you? Did you watch every Ingram? They did. So I'm going to go with that. Actually, for you guys talking about it, reading it to you, I am. That's one of the reasons my voice is a little bit worn out is because I'm actually doing the audible version of this book. My whole point is nothing's perfect. Their grades aren't perfect. But as a reference to start with, if we're talking about a player and how valuable they are and what they do,

we're going to look at objective measures because I have not watched every Evan Ingram play. But I think when you look at them on paper, yards per reception, how many receptions they get, yards after catch, where they line up, what their blocking is, the difference isn't that much. And so he's getting 13-7. Well, where does that put you on TJ Hawkinson? You like him better. I like him better than Ingram. 15? That's not resetting the tight end market. That's my whole point point And if they loved Hawkinson so much as a blocker

They wouldn't have brought in the number one Blocking tight end They probably would have They probably would have let TJ Hawkinson Do it, right? So anyway, the whole point is We don't have to do this PFF thing every time Wait, I gotta set the book back up

This is my free promotion here There you go, on the screen We don't have to do the PFF thing. Every time I bring it up, it's going to get brought up because it's a really better objective measure of what we're talking about than me just randomly guessing based on three games I've seen from Evan Ingram and not even on tape because he plays for the Jaguars anyway. So the whole point is 15 million is cool. 25 guaranteed is cool. You know, who else is in a similar spot as Dallas Goddard?

Do you like him better? There's about five of these guys who are in the same cluster. Put it that way. Let's cluster our tight ends up here in the hall of fame. Cluster is Kelsey Kittle. Waller is in the high end can go for 1200 yards and go downfield all right put him there as well because he's the highest paid guy so there's your ceiling if you want to reset the market you got to get paid higher than those guys and that's not where

hockinson is and i think the way that the general manager of the Minnesota Vikings, Kweisi Adafo-Mensa, operates is that he's got a price. And he's not going to go past that price. He has evaluated it. My guess is he's looked at some of these same numbers as I just read to you. And he's decided on who the most comparable players are and comparable contracts and what it's worth. So I like TJ Hawkinson as much as anybody. I think he's a terrific player.

But if we're talking about $18 to $20 million, you just can't do that, especially when the franchise tag is probably going to be like $13. So, you know, I don't know. Yeah, it's an interesting situation because here as I rant about it, I also just want to circle back and say that they still might get something worked out and everything else. And this might be put out there in part just as a little bit of pressure to try and get something done. High Times KG asking, wonder if they're trying to get the Hawkinson deal done before Jefferson. What's the holdup on that one? The holdup on that one might be that Justin Jefferson

doesn't have to sign it now and understands that if he has another year like this, then their feet are really to the fire. That could be it. It could be that it's complicated to make someone the highest paid player in the NFL. It could be that the Vikings have to make someone the highest paid player in the NFL. It could be that the Vikings have a price on him too. That's different though, because there's no metric, PFF, ESPN, receiver analytics, nothing that'll say anything different than Jefferson's the best in the game. And so there's not really a complication there, but it could be guaranteed money. It could be years. It could be,

it could be lots of things with Jefferson that they're working through. I will say if we walk out of this training camp and neither player has signed an extension, then I think we all will go. It was that ideal. I don't think so. Was that handled the best? I'm not sure if it was that ideal I don't think so was that handled the best I'm not sure if it was because I felt like you needed to get both of them extended to be completely solidified all I'm trying to point out is that when you do an objective analysis no matter how much you love a player and you put everything in a pot and then you try to make comparables to other tight ends at the price is not going to come out with him making 20 million dollars a year it's just not And then you try to make comparables to other tight ends. The price is not going to come out with him making $20 million a year.

It's just not. And if that's what they're trying to push for, then they can't go there. I also totally understand that you folks have cheered for this team, but also like the Minnesota Twins for a long time and heard a lot of, well, we just couldn't go to his price. We just couldn't match his price. And you, you let good players go because of it. And that's not something that you want to hear.

So it's tricky. It's tricky. And again, my stance has been to extend him, but you can't do it if he's not going to budge and he's going to have many different ailments that keep him out of practice. Maybe, you know, uh, I was joking that like gout is next after, uh, although not, not that that's a joke. I've heard that's horrible. So I'm sorry, but you know, like what's the net, like lower back

stiffness and whatever else. So, uh, and you are right. You are right that they have the franchise tag and there's nothing that TJ Hawkinson can do about that. And that's, that's their equation as well, is that you have the franchise tag. And if the franchise tag is going to be like 13 million or something next year, why should we pay you 17, 18 million? Gout is brutal. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I don't mean to joke about gout. I just thought like, it's a really random ailment that he's going to claim to have next after missing another practice today. But inappropriate to make fun of anybody with gout.

I'm sorry for that. Let me tell you, by the way, can we go from gout to – no, we can't. That's just too awkward of a situation. So let me get your guys' take on these things. I'm sorry. I've been ranting here for a while. But what do we think? Okay. Yeah. All right. Everybody's coming in with their gout experiences or that it's not plague. I sort of gone with that, but the plague was worse than gout. Anyway, so what are we feeling? Yes or no on Trey Lance?

Yes or no on paying Hawkinson whatever he wants? Are we thumbs up, thumbs down, side thumbs? Like, how are we feeling? Bilateral leg weakness was the right answer. Polio. I hope polio doesn't make a comeback. That would not be good. Um, but polio is pretty brutal too. Maybe we should have just said like an eyelash in his eye, but as a contact where that's not good either. So are you guys, are you guys thinking that they should trade for Trey Lance if they're not trading much. And extend Hawkinson at his price.

Let's even just say that he's going to clear Waller 17 per year, and that's what he's looking for. Bobby Hill gets gout on King of the Hill. Love that show. Love that show. Keep digging the hole. Yeah, you're right. It's pretty hard to find some debilitating disease to joke about.

So, yeah, maybe I'll just keep that one in my back pocket next time. But the whole point is that he doesn't actually have them. So that's what makes it funny. Jeff says absolutely no on paying on Lance and no on paying Hawkinson top dollar. I tend to agree with you. And after watching Josh Oliver for an entire year in training camp, I don't think it would be that insane to say, all right, either go or franchise tag them. And maybe Oliver is the next guy after that. He's just been very impressive. And look, this is what

happens. You sit out and then somebody else comes up and gets your reps and it looks pretty good. From Nathan, yes, on Lance is a backup. Just tag Hawkinson if he isn't being reasonable. Yeah, I agree with that. And he's TJ Hawkinson. There's only so much noise he can make on the franchise tag. The NFL really sets this up so all the cards are in the team's hands. And this is something I've noticed that over the years,

we always talk about like, oh, well, the player, he's going to force his way out and everything. And, you know, that's true. But like Diggs forced his way out for a first round pick. Everyone's got a price that they could be traded as well. And maybe it could be a trade situation for TJ Hawkinson next year. But if you're under contract you got to play and you have no other choice if you want to make your money so if they

want to franchise tag him next year they absolutely can and he can have whatever illness he wants over the training camp and not practice but at the end of the day you're going to be on the team with the franchise tag so they have all the cards there. If anybody has this, I'll look it up first. Trey Lance's cap hit. But I think it's quite significant. Is it for next year? It's quite significant.

It is. Oh, man, you'd be paying him $7.7 million to not play. And then $9.3 in 2023. So if it's bad, you're using a big chunk of space. Let's see. Joshua says, Lance needs reps to get better. Where's he getting reps? It's a good question.

You're right, in practice, but they are not giving. They don't develop players in season. It does not happen. They are preparing for every game. And if you're not the starter, you got to find a way to get your own reps. The other point is, too, San Francisco for three camps has given this guy a heck of a lot of reps. And he's gotten in these preseason games. Now, 2020, he didn't.

But he played the whole thing last year, the whole thing this year. And this is not where it's, oh, this guy has never, ever, ever played football. He's been with a pro organization for several years and they're still saying no. And then, you know, if it doesn't work out, you're still on the hook for 9 million next year. That's pretty tough. And then if it does work out, okay, then you are just pouring more and more millions into it. All right, I wanted to get away from the weird illnesses jokes before I talked to you guys about Grillmasters. I just thought that would have been a very strange transition. But Grillmasters Club, I have a box on the way, by the way, from Grillmasters, and I'm

very excited about it. Grillmasters Club, they send all sorts of grilling materials. I'll tell excited about it. Grillmasters Club. They send all sorts of grilling materials. I'll tell you about it. They like to call themselves sort of Netflix for barbecue. I love that because you could just pick and choose what you like. I just think it's the best thing in barbecue of all time. Grillmasters Club.

And this is one of those where they advertise on the show, but also they send me stuff and I use it and I love it. It's sort of like what we had with Oakley, where like, yes, they were advertisers, but I still wear the glasses every day. Same thing with Grillmasters Club. Even when they're not advertising, I will be using them for my grilling purposes.

But anyway, they have certified pitmasters at Grillmasters Club. They've cracked the code on small batch barbecue products. So I am not some barbecuing wizard or genius. I just put things on my grill and then grill them. And what Grillmasters Club does is make that like a really enhanced experience for somebody who doesn't really know what they're doing. And what's great is that you can choose monthly, bi-monthly, quarterly for these Grillmasters Club boxes. You get charged once a month, a couple days later, the box shows up at your door. Super simple, but they also don't keep charging you over and over

and over again if you're not using it. So you can come and go as you please with Grillmasters Club. Another thing that makes it great. So they've got all sorts of different barbecue products, sauces, marinades, spice rubs, grilling tools. Every month they put together custom recipes. It's super cool. So a subscription to Grill Masters Club is a great idea. Grillmastersclub.com. If it hasn't been made clear, grillmastersclub.com.

And 50% off using the promo code purple. So if you guys are like me and you're grilling, cause it's really hot out and that's fun. 50% off the promo code purple grill masters club. Guess what I'm doing for all my road trips. I'm figuring out what other sports games I can go to. And you know, who's giving me a huge hand with this is game time, buying tickets to your favorite events should not be stressful. And game time

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and use the code INSIDER for $20 off your first purchase. Terms apply. Again, create an account, redeem code INSIDER for $20 off. Download GameTime today. Last minute tickets, lowest price, guaranteed. .com. Okay, back into the discussion. Matt says,

Hawkinson, $13 to $15 million average annual value for a couple years, $40 million guaranteed. That would be a lot guaranteed compared to his peers for fully guaranteed anyway. But I don't think that that's crazy at all. A little more guaranteed money based on his age and right, right in the same ballpark as Mark Andrews,

Dallas Goddard. These are guys that he's similar to. I think that these are very, very good players. 15 million a year. That's the market price. Al says, Kwesi has shown that he'll give up late picks For past first and second round picks

That's absolutely true And there's an awful lot of smoke from national reporters Connecting the Vikings to him Yeah, there is So if they were to do this Then I guess I would not

Criticize it as in calling it insane or stupid or what is Gwesey doing? Like, the way I would look at it is more likely than not, very, very, very much more likely than not, this won't work out. And it's going to cost you a lot on the salary cap over two years. They're going to have to do things to the salary cap if they do this. With a $7 million cap hit, and they only have like $10 million in space, it does make it harder to move Jefferson money or Hawkinson money into this year. And so more of it's going to go down the road. And then next year, if you have him for a year and you feel like he's not any good,

then you're paying him $9 million or you feel like he's not any good, then you're paying him $9 million or you're just getting rid of him, I guess. So, I mean, you could do that and then you're just flushing a draft pick. But I think the biggest, and this is what Matt asks here, what's the downside? Yeah, the downside is that this might be a weird take. Well, one is the downside is you just waste cap space and you waste draft capital and it nets you absolutely nothing, which is, and it's a distraction because your team is just getting ready to play the season and you trade for quarterback, which is going to be a big deal. And you're making it even more clear to Kirk that he's out of here and everything

else. So there's some of those, those downsides. But my question isn't so much about the downside. It's actually more about the upside. If someone is truly horrific to this extent, what are the chances that they end up going way up to being like a top five to seven quarterback? Almost zero. But is there a chance he could become an okay quarterback? Let's say like Daniel Jones, not very good. Nobody really thought he was great. And then he's like the 15th best quarterback. Okay.

But then you got to pay him and then you're stuck in the same spot that you were before. So the, the best case scenario is probably the point where it's actually not that great. Like the best case scenario of drafting someone who is like Trey Lance, like a rookie quarterback is that they can be okay. They can be okay. And then they're cheap. So then you,

you end up with like being able to pour all this money into your roster. That's the big benefit of someone who's good and then cheap. And then if they're great, then you win. He does have to show up if he's franchised. I mean, he doesn't have to have to, but then he doesn't get money. So that would be bad. I don't want to lose the Kirk to Hawkinson connection in the playoffs. Oh, is that like a fourth and eight joke?

I'm not sure. Worst draft trade, Trey Lance or Lewis? Well, I mean, come on. Lewis seen as a trade down of which they got a bunch of other draft capital, which theoretically could have turned into something and just didn't. But Trey Lance was trading a bunch up. I understood Trey Lance would only, okay, so Jason says it'd be a 5 million cap hit.

49ers would keep some of it on theirs. All right, fair enough. You're still spending cap space. You're still spending time and effort. You're still spending draft capital, all to bring in someone who a really great organization with one of the best coaches is bailing on. I just feel like it's a tough, it's a tough ask to do. What are we paying for it? Like the fifth, fifth round pick. And even then next year, you're talking about a decent size cap hit

for him. And you might've just wasted everyone's time, but you know, I, the people who are making this point though, about like, why not take a shot at it? I respect, I respect that point very much. I do. I really do. I'm a little more concerned about if it turns out just okay. And then you don't know what to do with it as opposed to if it turns out great, obviously. But I mean, that ship is almost sailed at this point. So, yeah, I mean, I totally feel it when you guys are talking about a reason to do it is just because if you like them coming out, you evaluated them and they're going to give you something for nothing. Then you take a shot at it. So if they, if Kwesi decides that this is a good idea and they should take every shot they can at quarterback,

I'll say, okay. Because it makes it more clear you're moving on and you are taking a shot at a quarterback, which is fundamentally good. I just think it sounds similar to me too. Why don't we draft someone in the fourth or the sixth for a quarterback? And we go, okay. And every year we're like, okay, but that probably

won't work. It's like, no, no, it's a great idea to take a shot. And then the guy is cut out of camp and we're like, okay, well, you're taking a very, very low percentage shot. There's probably a higher percentage chance. Jalen Rager would turn into a good player because at least he was on the field in Philadelphia. Trey Lance couldn't stay healthy. And when he was on the field, it was so bad that they, uh, Oh, 2024 is going to be 5 million. Okay. So they're T they would have to eat some of that. And then 900,000. Okay. Well, that's that, that does change the math a little bit because I was just looking up his cap hits, but I didn't realize that they would be able to take some of that on their side. So you're looking to me, it's just not a very likely scenario that he turns out to be any good.

And then you've made the new given away draft capital. I could see it though. I could see it. So that's a separate conversation is what do we think? And feel free to drop this into the chat percentage wise chance. It happens like 20%. Are we thinking higher than that? Um, I guess I would, I would probably go about that about 20%. I just think it's better to move forward with this position than trying to pick up somebody else's disregarded, discarded quarterback who has not worked out. But I guess I would go probably about 20%. Hey, Jordan Addison was back at practice today, by the way, if you, if you wanted any other talk about anything else, uh, he looked good back from the concussion

back out there jaylen nailer is working on the side and so it looks like he's on his way back but whether that happens uh i don't know anytime soon it doesn't look like he's going to be back for these practices so that makes the wide receiver situation complicated with jaylen nailer and i'm not sure how they work that out Cause my understanding is even if you want to put somebody on the 53 or on the IR, you have to have them on the 53 as well. So it's not like a cheat. Um, okay. Uh, Jonathan texts me that in the poll, there was 57% of people want the Vikings to trade for Trey Lance. Okay. So it's an unpopular opinion for me to say, just move on. But I also think that there's all like,

this always seems like a good idea in theory. And I just, no one has let me know of a player where this actually worked. And we had to go back to like rich Gannon, but rich Gannon was a starter and he was a decent starter who won games for the vikings and then became good i can't think of anybody else i mean i i covered jp lostman and well no i was growing up with jp lost when i covered ej manual and buffalo same sort of thing maybe somebody else will pick him up and we should have the raiders picked him up like oh we should get ej get EJ Manuel. He was a first round pick. That didn't work out.

So I don't know. Kweisi has yet to hand out a multi-year extension. Would Hawkins be the first? That is true. That so far it's been all short term. And that's what the competitive rebuild is. Not locking themselves into anything long-term. And there will have to be some point where the money gets put down. And with Hawkinson not being signed, you wonder, all right, are you going to pony up at some point

and maybe just go a little bit too far because this is a guy that you could really use? But maybe Hawkinson, they don't view him as irreplaceable as we have. Uh, let's see. Who's the last quarterback on a rookie contract that was traded and panned out. Yeah. That's what I'm asking. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I guess it could be like Jimmy Garoppolo, but Jimmy Garoppolo is behind Tom Brady. And that's the only reason that happened. So, um, uh, we're, uh, uh, somehow Louis scene has invaded the, Oh, cause of the joke, the joke about Louis scene. That's why. Yeah. It was a joke. Yeah. He was making a joke about Louis scene versus the versus Trey Lance with the trade. Uh, has there ever been more of a

lock on the 53 than Jalen Naylor? KOC loves him. I think they liked what they saw from him a lot with last year. But I also think that, okay, that's good. Wasn't Favre a bust in Atlanta? There you go. There you go. What year is it?

Yeah. But, I mean, that's true that Jerry Glanville didn't like Favre and traded him to Green Bay. That did happen. So that's what I mean, though. Vinny Testaverde, Steve Young, Brett Favre. There have been a few of these highly touted quarterbacks that, you know, didn't work out and then eventually became great in the nineties. You're talking about my childhood of this happening, but not recently. So Josh says, give us a date when we should be concerned about no JJ extension. I believe that date is the first play that he runs in 2023. Then you're concerned about it because in 2023, then you're concerned about it. Because in 2020, they took the Delvin Cook thing

all the way through camp, and we were wondering, what's going on, what's going on? And then on a Saturday, might have been like a Saturday morning, they finally came to an extension, and we had a Zoom call with Delvin Cook. I remember that. We had a Zoom call with him on a Saturday to talk about his extension.

So it's the end of Saturday before they play their first game. Because once they play a game, I can't see them negotiating anything with Justin Jefferson. And then we go into next year. It's not illegal, but it's unlikely once they start to do that. It can happen, but that makes it less likely. Let's see. At least one can understand the reasoning of giving all the first round picks up for a QB that supposedly had the highest ceiling in the draft. Oh yeah, I don't blame San Francisco. I think also, by the way, trading down, that was questionable in that draft with Louis Seen. Drafting Louis Seen, I

don't think was that questionable. I didn't love the positional value, but there were people who had very high grades on him. It was right around where the consensus board said he was looking like a guy that you pair with Harrison Smith, take over for him, game changing playmaker, rebuild the secondary,

secondary matters. Like it wasn't, I remember talking about it it wasn't so much the players it was the decision but then the player hasn't worked out either and so of course it makes it look a lot worse but what San Francisco did was and this is what the Vikings are really in a way trying to do here which is build up their roster to a point where they're ready to drop in a quarterback and give them a good chance to succeed. This is another reason that I would be not into this idea, because I really think that there's no better situation in the NFL than San Francisco. I mean, if you can't thrive there, where can you play?

They have even a better setup considering their offensive line their coach i mean it's probably the if you were a quarterback yourself and roger goodell called you and said hey you're a great quarterback you could just pick your team who are you picking probably san francisco so i don't know that's what that's what makes it kind of tough. But the actual decision they made to trade up for him made a lot of sense. And at the time, it was all very muddy. They were taking a huge risk on a guy that they had barely seen play college football. And I respect that they went for it, but it doesn't always work out. And they survived. Sometimes we act on this like you can't survive if you have a draft pick go wrong. From Matt, what's the draft pick you gamble with Lance? Yeah, that's a good question. Probably a fourth with maybe some sort of, hey, if the guy ever leads them to a playoff game, then you get a second or something. Do it that way. But I wouldn't go much higher than something like a fourth.

Let's see. Only call if they take Kirk so Lance can lead us to the number one overall pick. That was the thing about that discussion back in March that I was on board for is if Trey Lance was your quarterback and it didn't work out, then it's actually okay because then you draft high and then you move on. And if he does work out, that's great. But this would be a year of his rookie contract. The way that you're setting up for now is Kirk plays with Lance behind him. And then you end up next year on the last year of his rookie contract. And that I just keep coming back to this. Oh, here we, here we go. We got this far without this high times. You had

to do this, right? Doesn't matter if our old line is terrible. Your old line isn't terrible. I hate to tell you that it It's just not. It's actually okay. If you look at offensive lines around the league, it's not a great situation for probably about 24 teams in the league. I don't think it's a terrible offensive line. I think it's got some serious weaknesses, but overall, I would probably put them

in the middle of the league for where they are right now. It's not so bad that you'd be afraid is, but overall I would, I would probably put them in the middle of the league for, for where they are right now. Not that it's not so bad that you'd be afraid to put a rookie quarterback in there or a guy who like plays like a rookie. Uh, let's see. San Francisco hasn't drafted in the first round because they traded picks for Lance. You could find a good safety at any point.

Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, I agree that you can find good safeties. I think what they were aiming for was try to get a game changing safety and rebuild their secondary around him. I think that's what they were going for. And so far it has not worked out, but they hurt themselves very little in a pick like that, not working out because they got other compensation, right? So you get other compensation by trading down and it's supposed to even out the odds. It doesn't even out the odds if you take Andrew Booth Jr., of course, that's what it's supposed to do. That's why trading down is considered to be good though. I didn't love it. Is Asamoah the biggest loser of this Vikings camp? Well, the biggest winners I've been

paced and he's more or less taken his job. So there is that. But yeah, I mean, it's been tough for him. He started out as like the clear cut starter. And as soon as Asamoah, you know, had some time out, it was like Ivan Pace just took over and played like a little Wolverine and has been really great. And they seem to love him since then. He was making plays today against the Cardinals had an interception. He was kind of all over the place. So yeah.

Yeah. I don't, I don't, I don't know if he's the biggest loser of camp might be Kenny Wong. Woo. Jack pod Lesney who never got a chance to kick. I don't know, but yeah,

I, I think Asamoah is unless I just wouldn't be done with Asamoah though. Like, I think he's still a talented player, but I wouldn't be completely done with Asamoah. Like his career's over because he lost a job to a UDFA. He hasn't been healthy. If he gets back healthy, maybe there is a role there.

That's what Brian Flores likes to do. All right. I'm going to have to jet soon, folks. I have to catch a plane to Las Vegas where I'm going to be doing the show the next couple of days. Let me answer a couple more questions. From High Times,

the timing on Lance is bad now. It just feels like it's not worth it at that point. That right there captures my whole feeling on it is that the timing is different than it would have been if they had done it earlier this year when everyone was talking about the interest now you're trying to win games and uh you've you know you're playing out this season with kirk cousins if they were playing out this season of a rookie contract

then you know it would have been a lot different i think over under the number of players brought in externally from roster cuts. Yeah. I'm going to go over two and a half that over two and a half players who are not on the team right now will be brought in. I really think that's going to happen. Hope your plane hasn't left yet. No, but it's getting closer. I really do have to,

I really do have to run, but it has not left. Yes, you will. That's the point. So I'm going to circa, not just to hang out, although not terrible. To get out of this hot weather is why I'm going. No, I'm going out to Circa to do the show from there.

There's going to be like a radio row. It's their big millions contest. So they promote the heck out of it. And a lot of us who have been part of that sponsorship are going out there. So our friend Eric Eager will be out there from Sumer sports. He's going to be on the show. We'll run into some other people. So I'll get some guests.

We'll have videos up. We'll have podcasts up. It's going to be fun. We'll go live a couple of times. Hopefully will raggets is going to be my eyes and ears from training camp tomorrow, but then they're off Friday and then we've got the preseason game, which will be absolutely breathtaking, I'm sure.

So anyway, you guys are the best. I love how many people showed up here at a totally random time to just talk about this. Great discussion, great discussion. And look, I want to add that all of your opinions, like some want to do the Hawkinson deal, some don't. Some want the Lance thing, some don't.

But all really well thought out in the comment section. And I really appreciate that from you guys that every time I log on here, we have really good, smart discussions. So thanks so much, guys. And we will talk to you all from Vegas very soon. Football.