Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Let's talk about hot seats of Vikings past and present

Episode Date: November 12, 2021

Matthew Coller and his former teammate Judd Zulgad talk about some of the hot seat stories from Vikings past. They talk about the time the Metrodome called for Brad Childress to be fired, how the Vikings poorly handled the firing of Mike Tice and what the potential final days with Mike Zimmer will be like. If Zimmer's tenure ends, where will he rank among all-time Vikings coaches? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Let's call it a very special episode. Matthew Collard here. Joining me is Judd Zolgad. And when I need historical context for things, I go to the bullpen and I bring in the lefty, Mr. Zolgad. And for this episode, we're going to be talking about tales from the hot seat, because Mike Zimmer is clearly on the hot seat as we stand at this moment. And we may be coming to the final days of his tenure in Minnesota. Things go very much sideways in these next few games, or at least down the stretch. It's hard to say what ownership will do. And so things usually get totally crazy right before a coach ends up getting fired.

And at this moment, that's kind of the case. So I wanted to bring you on Judd to talk about tales from when previous coaches have been fired. But can I just start with commenting about how there's like a generation of Vikings fans who has not seen things get crazy and a coach get fired. Like young Vikings fans are growing up where Mike Zimmer has pretty much just been their coach for a very, very long time. a frightening thought but yeah 2014 so if you are if you are a vikings fan full of hope full of hey zim's our guy you're about to get a lesson in the truth about this team and this was you know bound to probably take place at some point. Now the difference is this seems to be coming apart.

It reminds me, I would say 2016, like it's not near 2010. Yeah. And it's not like a complete disaster, but yeah, I mean, there are, there are Vikings fans who probably see Zim like I did Bud Grant, right? Like, you know, Bud was here forever. And I started to follow the team in 78 and it's like, oh, Bud's going to be here for a long time still.

So yeah, you are probably right. There is a faction of fans who think of, it's all Zim, right? And they're about to find out that might not be the case. Well, just think about how long eight years is in your life. I mean, if you were 12 when he got hired, you're like in college now and in the middle of your college career and you were a child. And so it's kind of got to be very strange to be talking about the potential for him to be going.

I mean, for me, growing up in Buffalo, Marv Levy was this way where when Marv Levy retired, it's like, wait, Marv's just just gonna coach the team forever isn't he or pittsburgh how about pittsburgh bill cower mike tom where these coaches are just an entire generation of people and zimmer isn't quite as long tenured as those guys were but has sort of had that same effect that he is one of the longest tenured coaches in the nfl and every coach ahead of him has that thing you could put on your finger and that banner that you raise in your stadium that says champions and Minnesota, they're not very familiar with them. Just Google the links if you want to find out what it means to win a championship in Minnesota. But I think that that has made it particularly interesting about Zimmer and about how like there's a clearly a very strong connection between how the Wilfs feel about Zimmer and about how there's clearly a very strong connection between how the

Wilfs feel about him and what he's done here is taking a franchise that was kind of in shambles and making it a consistent contender. But we have reached a point, Judd, where I felt like there were other times we had this discussion, 2018, when they disappointed. As you said, 2016, when the corners decided they didn't want to do what Zimmer told them to do. But we never really had it super seriously. And even last year, it felt like there's no fans in the stands and they rebuilt the defense. And so a disappointing year and a bad defense.

Well, okay, you kind of get one mulligan. But this year is different with the expectations they set for themselves and where they stand. Yeah, this feels like it's definitely it. And we have corresponded about this. And I think your statement, which I completely agree with, is there doesn't feel like there's a path for him to continue.

Now, I don't think, unless they get blown out by the Chargers and by Green Bay, I don't think he's going to be fired now in season if they had lost to the lions at home i think that was a possibility uh but i just don't see any way short of some weird run which i also don't see that he is going to survive this one um 2016 he was still too new so because that was a meltdown that was a pretty epic meltdown but it felt like then it wasn't it wasn't worth discussing like it was worth discussing what Mike learned from that but he wasn't going to be fired um I agree with you again 2020 I never thought oh man he's gone the only time I think that we've covered the team together that we felt that he was that he could have been gone was the playoff year when they went to the Superdome in 2019 and beat the Saints.

If they don't win that game, I think he's gone. I agree. And what's so interesting, completely revisionist history in this statement, but what's interesting is if the Wilfs had been ahead of the curve, they probably should have fired him then with the playoff win. Because they went into that game against the Niners and got their asses kicked, like up and down. And Stefanski was still here. Well, heck, if you had decided to fire Spielman, George Payton was, who I think is good. So that was your potential to say, you know what? You two guys are gone gone and we've got

two guys in house that we like the problem now is one are they going to fire spielman which by the way i now think they should but then two who are they going to get to replace the gm and or coach so i think mike is gone i'm not sure about r, but as far as, as the Wilfs go, what I don't know is who are they talking to? Like, are they talking to Peter? Do they have a person who can really help them say, this is what you should do? Because the one thing they, they will spend on the product. They are huge football fans. I still don't think that they actually know that much about football, which is why they defer so much. But in this case, I'm not deferring to Rick or Mike. Right. I mean, well, you think about both of these guys. I mean,

Mike wanted the defense rebuilt in his vision and it hasn't been good enough to win these games. It hasn't been horrendous, but it certainly has not been the difference maker that it was at other times during his tenure. And I think with Spielman, I mean, Zimmer said this at the Combine in 2018. I was there for this conversation and we were asking him about, what do you do about Teddy?

What do you do about Case? What do you do about Sam Bradford? And he said, look, if we make the wrong decision, we're all getting fired. And so far it's been the wrong decision. I mean, that, that can change, but organizationally, when you are this far into it and you have been 500 and you've made the playoffs one time as a six seed. And as you said, there were conversations to the point where the Wilfs put out a statement before the new Orleans game about the job status of Mike and Rick.

I mean, so when you get to that point, and that's still the high water point of your time here with Kirk Cousins, I mean, that is usually everybody's under the gun. If you make that wrong decision with the quarterback, this goes that way for drafting quarterbacks or developing them, that usually, I mean, sometimes you get two of them if you're drafting and, uh-oh, this one was a mistake, so now we're going to bring in somebody else. But when you're talking about signing and then re-signing an established quarterback, and at no point has your team ever been a legitimate Super Bowl contender, and you can use whatever you want. I mean, you can use the Vegas odds or whatever, but you've never been there. You've never been a favorite to be a team

that could go to the Super Bowl at any point. You have not won the division at any point, despite being the odds on favor going into the season twice to win the division over the Packers, and that hasn't happened. And so at that point, usually it's hot seat, of course, which is what we're going to discuss here. But usually that means everybody's getting the ax. I mean, it kind of reminds me of Atlanta a little bit with Dan Quinn, Thomas Dimitrov, and Matt Ryan has stuck around. So maybe even Detroit, it could be this way too, where they just said, goodbye, Patricia, goodbye, general manager, and we're going to trade the quarterback.

It feels like we're tracking that way. Do you think anything changes? Sam and I had this discussion earlier this week. Do you think anything changes if they were to make the playoffs but still not have a good record? No, I think that they would actually need playoff wins. So if they made the playoffs and they lost first round, I think Mike is gone.

I'm not as certain about Rick. I am convinced Mike is gone. Personally, I would fire Rick. I'm not convinced that they're going to But I think if they Made the playoffs and lost in the first round And repeated what happened in 2019 Which is we won in the first round How great

And then they go and physically just get their butts kicked Just get embarrassed I think Mike's gone I just think the whole thing with Mike To get to what we're going to talk about we have both covered coaches who are as good as gone and mike's got the look like how mike talks um there's a there's a lack of defiance now there's there's almost a resignation. I've seen it before. I'll see it again. And, and this is the first time, like I've seen Mike be beaten down before, but he usually bounces back.

He's not bouncing back now. And, and that's where I am just convinced that he knows that this is it. And, and so, no, I think if they go to the playoffs and they lose in the first round, he's gone. If they win in the first round and get their butts kicked in the second round, I think he's gone. I agree. I've covered enough coach firings in my career and not so much here, but in Buffalo. Yeah.

Not always firing. Sometimes the coach just quits, which I think is about the only time in NFL history it's ever happened. And the Bills had it happen twice with two different coaches where they just said you know what I don't coach here anymore uh but yeah I mean Rex Ryan was on his way out when I moved to Minnesota Doug Marone straight up quit uh Chan Gailey got fired so I mean yeah I've seen this and then on the hockey side Lindy Ruff was the most comparable to Mike Zimmer where he's a good coach very good good hockey coach. But eventually when the team lost some of its stars, Lindy Ruff wasn't so good of a coach that he could just drag them back into relevancy. And that was tough because he was well-known in the community. He was there for a

long time. And even he, like you said, eventually accepted his fate. And he did a press conference after he was fired and apologized for not being able to get it done and talked about how much he loved the community and everything else. And I wouldn't be surprised if when a coach like Mike has been around for a long enough time, that happens too. Now, I don't want to put that nail in the coffin yet, but I totally agree with you that there is sort of the five stages of you're probably getting fired. And I mean, the first, like you said, is complete defiance. You guys in the media are crazy. You have no idea what you're talking about. You don't know football. This is a great team, that sort of thing. And eventually now, even I

asked Mike the other day, like, how are you dealing with this? And he was kind of pleading with the team to keep fighting, but it was more, more sad than it was inspiring. And, um, you know, let me ask you one more thing about some, before we get to some of these stories is, do you look at Zimmer as the victim of circumstance of the, the things that have gone wrong along the way, or is it sort of well-earned or is it somewhere in the middle? The latter.

He has 1,000% made his own bed. And he long ago decided that he was going to do it his way. And if you didn't like it and you own the team, get out of his way unless you fire him. And I say that because of this. If Zimmer really wanted to hold on to his job, he would be right now embracing the offense. The offense has the components. I mean, as many faults as Kirk has, and my God, he's got a lot. But the offense has the position players, skill position players to ultimately win you games. It might not be pretty, and it might not go down to stylistic points.

And the defense certainly would be along for the ride. But Mike isn't doing that. He is coaching this team right now as if his defense is 2017. He literally is still being defiant. And I say that because look at the end of game meltdowns. Look at how many times the Vikings have melted down defensively because Mike is saying my defense can win this. I know they can.

And they simply can't. So not to embrace Thielen and Jefferson and Dalvin Cook and Kirk to a certain degree and KJ Osborne, not to embrace those players and say, gentlemen, you're going to win these games. The defense is going to have to do some work, but these are our guys. Mike's not doing that. How do you not put yourself in front of the train and say,

Clint Kubiak is a disaster here. I got to help out, or we got to help out. Instead, it remains this, pardon my French, pissing match between the quarterback and coach going back and forth. And both of them lying to a certain point. Like I think Kirk is full out fibbing. Mike is telling you some truths, but not all truths. So yeah, I mean, this is Mike. He is defiant. Has he gotten bad luck? Absolutely. Does he pile on himself and make it worse? Thousand percent. So there's one part of me that says, look, quarterback is always going to determine what we think of you.

Tony Dungy couldn't get it done with what Sean King is his quarterback. Yeah, but he could get it done with Peyton Manning as his quarterback. And that goes for all sorts of different coaches all over the NFL. It's very much like, Hey, Phil Jackson. I bet that guy knows a lot of basketball, but you saddle yourself to Shaq and Michael Jordan. You probably win a lot. And, uh, Hey, Greg Popovich since Tim Duncan retired, not so genius. Uh, you know, then, then Bill Belichick, like the same thing where I believe Bill Belichick is an absolute genius, a savant, for sure. Great coach, as good as it's ever been. But without Tom Brady, you're a 500 football team because that's how this works.

And Bruce Arians, always a good coach. When Carson Palmer played great, he goes deep in the playoffs, NFC Championship game. And when Tom Brady plays great, he wins a Super Bowl. But when Bruce Arians didn't have those guys, and that's a lot of his career, Bruce Arians like, Oh, I'm coaching big Ben and Andrew Luck and so forth. And he looks good. So, um, you know, from that perspective, Zimmer has had a lot of different quarterbacks. And the thing is about Kirk cousins is that under Mike Zimmer, he's played better football than he played in Washington. So that's the weird conundrum here is I, there's a lot of part of me that wants to say, well, the digs thing is the smoking gun and it is Zimmer's fault that

the offense is held back. But then there's another part of me that says, statistically speaking, PFF grades, number wise, everything else, the guy has actually been better than the person you signed. And so really Mike has been Mike and Kirk has been even a better version of Kirk, but the roster has never quite been good enough. And the interior offensive line still can't block and the defense fell apart and wasn't able to be rebuilt in one year to be elite. And so, you know, we get to this point in every show where we sort of point the finger at everybody. But I guess I look at it as more of being the reality of the thing.

And then you tack on these bad breaks and normal things that happen in the NFL, like players getting hurt, players having off-field issues. But it feels like that weight is a thousand times more on Zimmer. Kickers, maybe they do have a unique ability to miss kicks but um you know it feels like the weight is a thousand times more because you don't have a quarterback who makes you right well right and this team is not if you could maximize Kirk you would not do what the Vikings are doing right now. You would not put him, I think that for as much as we talk about Kirk not being an athletic QB, and look, in some ways he's not, okay? But I think he has a lot of

God-given gifts that make him really good. I think he's got a great arm. He can make throws that a lot of QBs can't make. He can do a lot of things that make him special but what he needs and i think he's proven this what he needs is he needs a coordinator and qb coach who basically can help him um i'm gonna go out on a limb right now and say as far as football smarts go because i have no idea kirk cousins might have been a straight a student in college i don't know but as far as football smarts go matthew i don't think he's that smart of quarterback. I don't think he's great at identifying things. I think he panics. So perhaps if he does identify things, he then like on third and nine in overtime on Sunday goes into

a panic. You need a voice of reason, right? Like you need a calm influence. Well, mike has never been close to that clint kubiak's a kid uh calling plays for the first time and so unfortunately for the vikings they've never been on the same page about how to maximize their prize possession i'm not absolving kirk but what i'm saying is there's always been in my opinion a disconnect between spielman, and what the process is supposed to be. And that includes now with Mike, again, relying on a defense that had to put Chris Boyd out there on Sunday. Chris Boyd shouldn't be anywhere near a football field when you're playing defense. I don't know about you guys, but I've gotten very good in my life at admitting when I need some help. If you are struggling to figure out how to navigate workers' compensation and disability laws, I've got a team that can lend you a hand. Kemet, Sanford, and Kramer are dedicated and experienced disability attorneys,

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cousins and so forth and it's completely inexcusable to not have justin jefferson and adam theelin involved more but also the person throwing the football is not Mike Zimmer and it's not Clint Kubiak and ultimately arrests on his shoulders. The reason that I cannot get around to a point where I say it's everyone else's fault, but the quarterback is when I look at his career numbers in Washington, he had a 93 quarterback rating, went 26, 30 and one in Minnesota. He's been much better with 93 quarterback rating went 26 30 and one in Minnesota he's been much better with 103 quarterback rating still about the same win loss record same yards per pass attempt but he's been better in a lot of areas and so it's like well I think they may have actually maximized Kirk Cousins

now that doesn't mean this year in every game for sure and there's been play calling issues where you've gone come on man you know and stuff like that every game for sure. And there's been play calling issues where you've gone, come on, man. You know, and stuff like that. So I totally agree with that. There's tight end screens that happen on third and long or something that should just not really be happening. It's just that when the guy was already a grown adult, full established quarterback before with good weapons and good coaches, and then you've done even better with him and he's he has won more games and he has produced better statistics and better pff grades across the

board it's just hard for me to say that there's some other magical formula i mean unless bill walsh comes back from the grave it's just like what would it take then if they've already pushed him to about the best version of himself? Well, the only thing I think, and this goes for, um, latent games, like what we saw or didn't see more importantly on Sunday is the only thing is to have a coach who, if he throws a pick says, okay. Cause the problem is the incessant checkdowns and and yeah there's no way that the game plan is let's throw that tyler conklin as much as possible right but but kirk uh kirk

one panics and two i think he is he is intent on not making mistakes because zim gets ticked off and i think that especially in important, that definitely handicaps you. I mean, third and nine in OT, if you don't get that first down, the game is done. That defense was cooked. That defense had no chance. And not only did they not get it, but it was a terrible play call. Kirk didn't change the protections. And that ball hit the ground. It was near nobody.

And so, yeah, I'm with what you said at the outset though the blame here goes to everybody like kirk does not get off i'm not trying to absolve kirk one bit i'm just saying i think the disconnect between gm and coach also has played a role in in you know one guy thinking that a defense the flat out is just not that good like they they can't stop the run, Matthew. They cannot stop the run. And Mike is coaching this defense. Like they are going to the, to a 13 and three record again. And the title game in the conference, which was 2017. You know, I think, have you ever been in a hotel room where you can't get the temperature right? And so you, you turn it to 72 temperature right and so you you turn it to 72

and you're roasting you turn it to 70 and you are freezing yeah that's how i feel like it is trying to nail it with what with coaches and cousins where they turned the dial toward quick game or shorter passes because he was getting sacked too much but now his average depth of target is extremely low and you're getting three and outs and when they turned it toward let's have him throw it down the field because he has a great arm then it was he's getting sacked too much and throwing interceptions and so forth and they're just like i don't know if there's any ability to get the dial right because what happens is fundamental it's at its core that when someone rushes at him it's over and and there's really no resolving that so i think i think on the whole over three years uh mostly since john d filippo

that they've had a lot of the right answers not necessarily in every game or every situation but mostly the right answers and there's just like something there that you can't make up the difference, especially when you don't have a great offensive line. So the first question was, is Mike a victim of circumstance? And I think any coach that gets fired because their quarterback wasn't good enough to make up for the problems that you have when there's 32 teams is a victim of circumstance in some way. Like, I'm not saying this about Adam Gase or Joe Judge. Joe Judge is a joke, but his quarterback's not good and he's not good enough, right, to make up for that.

And so that guy is kind of a victim of circumstance fundamentally. Anyway, anyway, so let's discuss here the past, though, because I wanted these tales. And I want to go back. Let's go back in reverse order to Les Frazier because i was not here yet in minnesota and the vikings at the time that less ended were so irrelevant that i couldn't tell you two things about that you know before i came here and and obviously learned what had been going on before zimmer but um it seems like it was about as unceremonious as it gets of a coaching change. Like no one really wanted to do it because he's

a nice guy, but they just weren't winning games and their defense was tremendously bad. So, so less replaced Childress to backtrack to that in November, 2010, and the Vikings righted themselves because it had been so tumultuous with Brad that Les got the full-time job. And the problem was in 2011, so Brad had control of the 53 and Rick was sort of his caddy. When Les got the job full-time, they decided to split the duties 50-50, which is crazy dumb. But so that's why like Les went out and got McNabb and Rick drafted Ponder because everybody had their own idea. It was after the 3-13 debacle then that they kept Les, but promoted Rick.

And Les was a goner from that moment on because this was now going to be Rick's show. And Rick was eventually going to find a coach. And so the power struggle had been won. Les was a good guy. But you know what? To use your term, Les was probably a victim of circumstances in the moment he lost the power struggle and Rick was promoted to GM. Les was screwed. And that defense was awful.

And now we can sort of parcel blame here because Les was a defensive coach, but Rick had a lot to do with assembling that roster. And this is where I don't let Rick off the hook. And I think that he should be fired too, because keep in mind, Rick has played a huge role here. A huge role, played a huge role, probably the predominant one in cousins because he flat out couldn't find a

quarterback. He's the guy who, and I, this boggles my mind, but Garrett Bradbury is such a bust. Basically he said, I'm going to draft this guy in the first round. He wasn't even the best center in that draft and to to your point nothing's more important for kirk than protection up the middle so so let but yeah less is a definite victim of circumstances given the fact that the moment rick was placed above less less was a goner like he had no chance and and also i mean if christian ponder is your leading passer two out of the three years and matt castle is the leading passer the third year yep i don't know what to

tell you i mean now he was a defensive coach and so when you have poor defenses in in those years two out of the three years the defense was just abominable so it wasn't even like reasonably decent then then of course you're going to be specifically under the gun because it's your side of the ball. And anytime that fails, then you're going to say, well, aren't you the defensive coach? And even if we've made mistakes on the roster, aren't you supposed to be able to scheme it up? But it usually does come back to the quarterback. What I am sort of fascinated by is how teams always go a different direction where it's like less Frazier is the nicest guy.

And I know he was defensive minded, but the nicest guy. So they kind of go hard ass the next time with Zimmer. Always how they do it. Yeah. The next guy is going to be analytics and he's going to be offense. And like, that's just how it's going to go because that's how it always goes.

Were there times with less Frazier though, in that last year like when when did everybody know it was over they started to spiral a bit i believe that was the if i'm not mistaken i believe that was the josh freeman year um and they brought freeman in and now now see a lot of this falls back on rick and rick is a survivor big time in in the world of football and because of his job vikings football in particular uh but you know rick had loved josh freeman going into the 2009 draft and freeman got taken by the buccaneers which was actually a break because percy fell

to the vikings at like 22 or so uh but loved him. And so the word has always been that it was Rick who told Les, that Giants game, Monday night, I believe, Josh Freeman is starting. And Les is like, huh? And he's like, we're starting Freeman. Rick is also the one who took Antoine Winfield away from Les, released him, and forced Les to make Josh Robinson, not even that good of outside corner, the nickel corner inside.

He had never played there in his life and it was a disaster. So again, Les was set up in a lot of ways to fail because I think they went 3-13 playoffs. They made the playoffs and then the disappointing 2013 and less took the fall. And I think he's talked privately about this since less took the fall for a lot of things that went wrong that were probably directly attributed far more to the personnel department than less himself. And I think from this, just from the pure, like which game was it where you all knew it was over? I think that was probably the second to last game where they got destroyed

42, 14 by the Bengals because they had actually, they had gotten to a really, really ugly point where it's one in seven and maybe the decision was made then. And then they sort of had a second wind fought back a little like some of those close games right i mean not dead yet you and i would not be surprised if they beat the chargers played close with the packers then hey we're only one game out of whatever whatever and then hey we're playing san francisco's not that good and we're gonna split

with the bears and then last day of the, they come up short to miss the playoffs or something like you can sort of write it before it happens. But that seems like that was the moment where it's like, okay, I mean, you're giving up 42 to the Bengals and this is probably it. Yeah. And my guess is at some point in time before that, Rick went to the Wilfs and said, need my guy um and the zimmer hiring actually if you trace it back to me is also intriguing because of this the zimmer hiring was almost rick's admission i can't find a quarterback which should have been a red flag it should have been a big right i mean the ponder pick was awful it wasn't sort of bad it turned turned out to be terrible. And for all that Rick and the Vikings brag about, we sit down with guys and we

bring in psychologists and gurus and the Maharishi once in a while. I mean, by the end of our conversations, we know what time this guy goes to the bathroom. And you whiff that bad? So there have been some definite, which is why I'm not convinced Rick is gone,

there have been some definite telltales about Rick that the Wilfs don't pick up on. I mean, you've seen that. You're not going to get an argument for me. I mean, the players being drafted to move positions and all sorts of stuff like that. I mean, even now when you talk about drafting first rounders who blow up in their face and drafting another quarterback in Kellen Mond, who absolutely at this moment cannot play football. I mean, if you can't be ahead of Sean Mannion on the depth chart, I know he's a rookie, but what as a third round draft pick to even be the backup, that means they wouldn't even trust you for a quarter. If Kirk Cousins went down, they would trust Sean Mannion more so the identifying quarterbacks

and then I mean look Courtney reported that they didn't even look at Mac Jones they're just like no nope and I'm not saying that he's the best quarterback in the league but he's got more wins than your team does and he's playing competently in ranks in the top what 10 or 12 by PFF and if you've got that guy who's even good with all the money to spend that formula adds up. And then they also barely even tried to trade up for Justin Fields. They sort of made this half-hearted effort. And yeah, I mean,

there's been lots of these where we go through it and go, I mean, what, what, what, what happened there with the evaluation quarterback wise? Now the Frazier's is so like by comparison uninteresting to childress which is legendary and i know that you and i have discussed the

end of childress before but it is a remarkable implosion that you know i don't think zimmer can top in terms of the final days of Mike Zimmer. It is where it feels like we're at right now. Could change, could change. It's always the Vikings. But Childress's may never be topped in terms of his final moments as Vikings coach. Well, Mike is obstinate and Mike is, I'm sure, a handful to work with and for. But Brad was insubordinate.

And that's the difference um so when brad released moss without telling as we've discussed before ownership whoops i've just decided to release a guy who is you know a hero coming back home um and didn't tell the wilfs and then lied about it at the podium. And then, and then when, when Lieber told us the truth in the locker room, accused Ben of being a bad guy and Brad would have been fired. So the next game that the Vikings played was at the Metrodome. I want to say against the Cardinals and they beat the Cardinals. If they had lost that game, he's fired. They then come back shortly thereafter and get drubbed by the Packers at home

at the Metrodome, which is completely embarrassing. And Brad was fired the next Monday. But yeah, what got Brad fired, and look, is there a chance that Zim could be insubordinate? Absolutely. But Brad was insubordinate. Like he didn't tell the people who run the team, I am going to release this former star Vikings player

who just a month before all of you were ecstatic to have back. So that's why I don't see Zim going down the same path as Brad. The only thing that would interest me is if they did get blown out, Matthew, by the Packers, because that's an affront to the Wilfs. And if, if they do, and that stadium gets ugly, which is, you know, certainly a possibility that would be the only way that I would think that Mike could get fired. If it's a close loss, I think he he's fine.

But I will say this, the reason why I don't want him to be fired. And I'll be very clear about this, is the Leslie Frazier situation. So everybody says, Andre Patterson, just make him the coach. Okay, but this is the Wilfs. If Andre Patterson steps in and does a good job, there's an off chance they'll start to say, you know, he's done a really good job. He stabilized things. We won some football games. The players like him.

Because my guess is the players like him. The players love less. Yeah, they love Andre Patterson. There is nothing and this has nothing to do with football. In sports, my opinion, the interim coach is the worst thing because that guy has time to convince you. And unless you're sure that that's the guy, I want you to conduct a real search. Not Andre Patterson's been great or Frazier was great. Let's give them the job. So this is why I would much prefer that they just allow this thing to play out. However, it's going to play out and make their decision after the season comes to an end. Now, a couple of points off what you said.

2019, the loss, the very, very bad loss to Green Bay was what put Zimmer on the hot seat right there. I don't believe throughout that season he really was. I think there was frustration at some of the big losses to good teams. But that was the one where it turned up the heat to he might be on the outs here if they don't win in the playoffs. And then, of of course they did. The other thing too, now with Childress, because you were talking about what the stadium atmosphere could be like if they lose to Green Bay

and if they're struggling offensively again, was there not a game with Childress where the fans were cheering really loudly, fire Childress? Oh yeah, yeah. But here's the thing is, so Brad, this is so us. So Brad's first press conference in 06 was, how can I put this? Not impressive.

To use a term that we didn't use back in 2006, Brad Childress did not win the press conference. So the fans never really liked him because he was always sort of this distant guy. And, you know, he talked in monotone ways and there wasn't a lot of fire there so so like from the outset i would say that childress was never really popular and then as things snowballed in 2010 yes there were fire children's chants and don't forget too so in 2010 and that this might seem like a small thing, but it's actually probably important.

We didn't have things like the skull chant yet, these rallying things yet. So the fans were, the fans got much more frontal back then. It feels now, I'm not sure what your opinion is of this, feels now like it takes a little bit more to get them really PO'd. Back then it didn't take as much. So, but yeah, I mean, Brad was, that Packers game was 1000% it.

Like everything that had transpired. Another key difference in that one though, was the players had turned on Brad completely. I don't know, you could tell me, how much do you sense that the players have turned on Mike I know that some players probably have but I'm talking about like the he had lost the locker room it depends on how much someone like Adam Thielen blames Mike Zimmer for what's going on offensively and how much they blame Clint Kubiak because I never got the sense over the last year with Gary Kubiak that there were any real problems with the offense. I mean, now there were problems that they went long stretches of time. They did not have a great percentage of drives they scored on, but they hit explosive

plays. And when they would get down in games, especially they could come back at any time. Just, just the Jefferson puts up a historic season. It's pretty hard to say, oh, Gary had no idea what he was doing out there. There were times where I felt like, okay, it's a little antiquated. We kind of expect that. I think every offensive coordinator that's worked with Zimmer has probably gotten frustrated with, yeah, we're down 30. We need to run the ball.

I'm like, Mike, okay, we can't just do that. Everyone, I mean, even going back to Pat Shermer, I think there were times where and he sort of hinted at it when we did a conference call with Shermer one time where he said, like, yeah, you know, it was an old school atmosphere where we love to run the ball. that so he is at the center of the offensive philosophy but i when you watch the team play you don't get the feeling like even actually i think the locker room turned on him in 2016 i think that's when you got the feeling of like oh they lost 34 to 6 to a horrible colts team they didn't want to play that day and uh this i i don't see. Now we've got ways to go, but he also hasn't said and done things outside of the COVID stuff that has been like directly manipulative toward players. In 2016, the thing he said about Anthony Barr really upset people. What he said about Sheree Floyd's injury really upset people.

I think he kind of learned his lesson, like to not go all in. You can make hints at certain things, and you can definitely slam the young players. No one cares about that. You're a rookie. Deal with it. But when you're a pro bowler and you're playing injured and you're one of the captains of the team,

to say the guy is coasting, that was too far for the locker room. So I remember that being really upsetting to them. Since then, I think there were people who have been upset with certain things, the criticism of case Keenum. I don't think anybody liked that. I know that other people around the league didn't like that. They couldn't believe other people asked me like, really like, wow, why was he doing that to his quarterback? So there's certain things like that, but I don't get that feeling with this team i mean it's usually a well-coached team from a schematic and technique standpoint like they usually know what they're doing and if you think that this team has some confusion on defense oh my gosh like it

could be so much worse than this for confusing assignments and everything else um but it's early and so i guess we'll see and maybe if z Zimmer has gotten to the point where he's like, Hey, whatever happens happens, then we won't get an ugly blow up. Well, and I think what helps Mike a little bit too, is this, um, I don't think the locker room, it doesn't strike me as being really galvanized. And, and I think players are split, not like with hate and not hate, but I think players are split on Kirk. So like Kirk is not this guy that, oh, we all love Kirk.

Like they say they like Kirk, but of course he's their quarterback. They're going to. But I don't feel like Kirk draws people to him, and then they're like, you know what, Kirk, Mike's doing you wrong. So I feel like it's split as well there. I'm with you. I don't sense that this team is not playing to me like they've quit on Mike. What they are playing like is like they really don't have a sense of purpose.

And I really don't think, and again, we're not in the room. I'm just observing this. I don't think that they're close as a team. They strike me a lot. 2015-16 wild. Suter, Parisi, there was talent there. You saw it, but they weren't close. And it's not that they hated each other.

It's that they just didn't play for each other. And that's how this team feels to me. And it feels fracturedured but not like players against coach just like the whole thing feels fractured yeah fractured in the way that everyone's sort of doing their thing for them it's like hey look i play football for my paychecks and for my family and like this is my career so i'm gonna and I'm going to do my work in 2017. Those people, they care deeply about each other. I mean, I, in my book, plug the book. But I, I mean, this is a big part of it. It's just how much everybody meant to each other. You don't

get that feeling. You get the, like, well, these guys are close and these guys are close, but you know, and I think what really broke that was the Dallas game. That's where the demeanor of the team changed because they would come out in front of the media and say like, Hey, we, we could do this guys. You, you don't know what you're talking about. We can do this. And after they lost to Cooper rush, it was like, yeah, I don't know. We got to stop doing, you know, we got to stop doing this. i i have i have definitely sensed a direct press conference change in thielen which i find to be really intriguing he's clearly frustrated and i think he's just flat out mad and i think he should be and i almost wish he would just cut it loose and

and say exactly what he thinks because jefferson's not going to and he's still probably too young to, right? But I mean, I think they're at the point where it actually do them some good potentially to air out the problems. Because I don't think the problems are like, I hate this guy. I hate that guy. I think they're schematic problems. And I think that they're, you know, when Thielen and Jefferson are seeing the ball as little as they are right now, something's gone wrong and nobody is addressing it. And it feels like it won't change until it gets out publicly. That if he's going to the coaching staff, to Kubiak, to Mike, and Thielen's saying, I got to get the ball more.

It's like, okay yeah sure you almost got to get it out there it's like one last gasp to be like can this fix it if i almost embarrass people to the point of okay bleep him but he's right folks have you ever thought about taking a bike to work but figure it's too far or that the hills are too steep? Or heck, who wants to show up to work covered in sweat? Well, that's why you need to check out the electric cruiser bike from my friends at Boogie Bikes. The Boogie Bike gives you all the experience of saving gas, getting outside, and feeling the wind through your hair. Say if you have a haircut like that Green Bay quarterback. But you don't have to be an Olympic cyclist in order to get all those benefits.

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Right. And there's enough rumbling of all that to already be sure that that's the case. Oh, yeah. And then Thielen's press conference, I brought up a few times on the show this week. It was really notable. He was extremely frustrated and he was talking about, like, we have the guys, we have the guys. Now, I don't think that they have the guys to be a Superbowl contender, but I picked them as a 10 and 17 based on the guys.

And I factored for, there'll probably be some key injuries and so forth. Still picked them at 10 and seven. Vegas had them as like a nine win type of team to be under that certainly is deserving of a great deal of frustration and again that's what puts you on the hot seat is when you have your players like you're right about adam thielen where he's basically having to um contain himself from going off and he should he gets two catches in baltimore go on it's unacceptable um Let me ask you about now. What, what, what was your status when Tice got fired? Were you on the beat at that point? Okay. Yeah. 2005 was my first year, which is the first year that the Wilfs own the team. They allowed Tice to coach the entire season.

They got done with the win against the bears and the bears had, had clinched their playoff spot and positioning. So the bears basically took out their guys at the half or before. The Vikings won, finished 9-7. And it was as almost all the players were gone from the locker room in the Metrodome that the Vikings handed out the infamous press release saying, we have relieved Coach Tice of his duties. So they fired him literally in the moments after the game, but they made sure most of the players were gone.

So it took more effort than to get comments from players. That does not happen today. I mean, today they wait until the Monday after and then it was brutal. It was tweet and all that. It was classless. And, and I,

I believe the backstory is if I'm not mistaken nate tice was a ball boy and they basically handed him the press release saying your dad's been fired so that's how he found out oh my gosh she get nate on to tell that story that that i think it was nate and i think they handed him they definitely handed a press release and it was just a really cheap, like typed up quick release. So that was it for Mike Tice. Yeah, that's tough. And I always thought Tice was a really sort of interesting coach because they gave him nothing to work with for most of his tenure.

They're just nothing. I mean, they couldn't afford his offensive coordinator. I mean, like ludicrous things by today's standards, but the NFL used to be, you know, not quite the cash cow that it is now. And you had some owners who were just insanely cheap. There was always that there was the Dante thing. I mean, you know, he gets hurt. What are you supposed to do about that?

You know, you have Randy Moss's drama that was constantly going on. Then we sort of have smoothed that out over time. But that was a constant thing throughout that era. And yet they were a super exciting football team and that couldn't stop anyone on defense, but a really exciting team under Tice. And he was probably like a decent coach, but almost too much of a normal guy coach

to be that like, you know, face of the franchise type of person i think it was an interesting dynamic yeah and so he he got promoted when green left um he got promoted from o-line coaching and mike had never been a coordinator so like we're talking about a guy who who was um green but you're right red was so damn cheap that he was looking for everywhere to cut corners. And Mike was cheap. Yeah, Mike did a better job than people give him credit for. Now, the one thing where I will really defend him is in 2005, they left him to answer for everything.

He was the point. He was the public spokesman, basically, on the love boat, which had nothing to do with him. Like, that was a player orchestrated thing and and instead of having a lawyer come downstairs and you know be like okay give me the questions mike tice would go to the podium and have to answer questions about this complete embarrassing cluster bleep and you know that's not fair his job was to talk about football and x's and O's and who's going to start where, and he's trying, but the Vikings were so poorly run and, and the Wilfs. So the Wilfs had the team by then,

but they really spent 2005 trying to like learn. I almost don't blame them. They could have done more, but they were trying to sort of learn. And so the whole, the whole season for lack of a better term was in disrepair and Dante gets hurt. Dante's off to a terrible start. He gets hurt. Brad Johnson, poor Brad with no arm left comes and actually plays well.

And they eventually until near the end contended for a playoff spot, but Mike still got fired. I've heard the reason why mike got canned was that there was a game i believe it was right after the love boat in chicago that so tice's edict was if you're late to a meeting and i think he was talking about especially the one the night before the game on saturday don't even bother because he was you know hard ass tough guy supposedly one of the owners not ziggy and not mark walked in late to the team meeting in chicago i think it was and tice belittled him because tice could tice could embarrass you like he was good at that um and tice was trying to make a point and be a tough guy and i've heard that after that it was like he's gone and we're was trying to make a point and be a tough guy and i've heard that

after that it was like he's gone and we're gonna do it and we're gonna do it at a good time and so i think that's why because there was no reason to fire him after a game like you could have waited till monday yeah in 2005 i don't think the norm was to issue a press release a half hour after a game came to a conclusion. Be like, you're fired. See you later. So, yeah, that whole thing, that whole thing, though, was such a different Vikings team. I mean, Winter Park, the Metrodome, you know, everything cheap. Yeah.

You know, to have your O-line coach get promoted to OC, that's cheap in college. That's too cheap moving college and poor. What was his name? Steve Loney, I believe was the bleeping OC and old line coach. Right. After Linehan, right? Yes. And, and, and, and Scott was good, but I mean, think about, think about an o-line coach is one of the most all-consuming jobs like that is a full-time job and they had this guy babe trying to run the offense and the line different world yeah and usually the offensive

line coach is involved in designing the entire run game which you know might be where the vikings are missing rick dennison a little bit this year but but yeah, I mean, so that's, I mean, it is a totally different world than where your team will manipulate the cap in every which way, because the Wilfs are willing to pull out their wallets and just pay whoever, which is in some ways been to their detriment. But let me ask you this real quick question before we wrap up, Jed, I didn't mean to take up this much of your time, but this is very busy, real quick question. Um, before we wrap up yet, I didn't mean to take up this much of your time, but this is very busy, man. This is what happens. This is like what it sounds like when you and I have lunch. Like this is just, if you ever want to know, um, there's

more swearing usually. And that's it. We'll podcast that next time. Yes, exactly. Uh, where does Mike rank? You think, I mean, okay. Bud Grant is the goat the goat yeah how's it go after that if it ends after this year i'm gonna i'm gonna go like this bud grant you're right i'm gonna put denny second okay i'm gonna put denny second in part because he played an essential role in drafting moss um he had a you know what they didn't win a super bowl and they didn't get the one, but he had a lot of success. Yeah. And, and he was hired in 92 sort of as the offensive surge started. Now that's all,

you know, it's much different now, but Holmgren got hired by the Packers. Denny got hired by the Vikings. I'm going to put Denny too. I'm going to put Zimmer three. I'm going to put Denny two. I'm going to put Zimmer three. I'm going to put Burnsy four. Tice, probably Van Brocklin.

And Stucco was a mess. I mean, that was what, three and 13. Who cares about that? But yeah, I think I would put Mike behind Denny. I think Green's success and what he did probably, especially with some of the circumstances, probably isn't appreciated enough. And so I think I would put him ultimately in front of Mike.

I agree. I also think that they were one of the more entertaining products ever created during Denny's period. And not just 98. But I mean like 94 with Warren. Look at his quarterbacks. Yeah. I mean, he found, he cultivated and found guys. And he could have had more patience with, for instance, Rich Gannon.

But yeah, yeah. I think for the product that they put on the field and what Green did, he deserves credit. And they were, I believe, pretty much a perennial playoff team. Yeah. They missed in 95, but... Yeah, to me, it's easily the first two. And then the question is, like, is it Zimmer or Burns? Yeah, that's what I was trying to think.

I think it's Zimmer. He lasted longer um um burnsy didn't exactly achieve expectations once they got herschel uh and and you know it's weird too i i guess in some ways just quickly i guess in some ways if you reflect cousins is going to end up being to zimmer what herschel was the burnsy because neither of them were probably neither was as good as we thought the day they walked in the door but both were very useful but both were never used in the right way because that really wasn't how the coach did things so i'm not absolving anybody here, but I think you could draw some

parallels between those four people. I agree. I mean, if you, this will be the same thing. If you look at Herschel Walker's numbers, you'd be like, why is everyone so upset? I mean, he's fine. Get some kick returns and caught some passes and he was a good player for them. And then you look at what they traded him for. I would say the same thing goes for Kirk and his contract, but it's like, Oh, you had pretty good numbers and so forth and play decent quarterback. Oh, he was the second highest paid quarterback in the NFL in an era where you still had legends playing quarterback and some of the greatest up and coming quarterbacks. And yeah, the same kind of thing.

And ultimately trading all that for Herschel Walker was costly to the roster. And spending all that for Kirk Cousins, it was impossible to keep an elite roster. And both moves were made by front office executives who thought that they had found the answer, the nirvana of football. But if you go back and look, Burnsy is heralded a founder of the West Coast. And what was Herschel? I-formation, power, let's run that son of a buck right through the A-gap, right? And it's like, that's not a West Coast guy. And in Kirk's case, I don't know that they've ever really, they signed Kirk, they paid Kirk,

and then they never really said, what can we do for Kirk beyond that? Like they didn't say the center is going to be really important. And so are the guards. And again, I'm not trying to absolve Kirk, but I am saying that they got this square peg in both Walker and Cousins' case. And they're like, okay, and now we got a round hole. It's going to work, right? And it's like, it's really not going to work. Sorry. They did enough in terms of having the two wide receivers for him all the time.

And they did enough in terms of having the right scheme for him with Stefanski and Kubiak. I mean, when you bring in actual Gary Kubak right for a guy who's perfect for that offense that that works and they've given given him until this year largely an amazing run game where he at times didn't have to do anything just keep handing off to Delvin Cook you win the football game you throw 12 passes but it never has felt like we will move heaven and earth to surround Kirk Cousins I think that's maybe the difference right there and the offensive line and the interior line which is so important and and

if this isn't for Kirk here his first his first OC is good going to have been flip and his last one is Clint and both of them didn't really fit Kirk. Like it's weird. It's weird that the Vikings got blown out by, by the Eagles in the conference title game and said, we have to upgrade a quarterback. And we're also going to steal a guy from the Eagles and this is going to work. And then they're like, Kirk meet John.

And Kirk's like, yeah, dude, I don't really do those things as well as you would like me to. And so, yeah, it's, it's always felt like they've come up short in saying, we're investing so much in this guy. Because, I mean, technically, the day that you traded everything that they did for Walker, you should have revamped your offense, right?

Like gone to us. Yeah. Like, okay, we got to do the herschel walker and instead they're like yeah but bernie's our west coast coach but there is a little and and i'm sorry this is what again this is what happens when we talk it's just it's very interesting but like i didn't think of this 2018 is rewritten a little bit because Mike Zimmer decided to fire Kirk Cousins, right? But- Or Flip. I'm sorry.

Yeah, I'm sure he would have fired Kirk Cousins. He'd like to fire Kirk right now if he could. John D. Filippo. So it's rewritten to blame John D. Filippo, which I don't want to take all the blame off of him. But through six games of that season, the Vikings were solidly right there in the playoff race doing just fine. And through six games of that year, Cousins had 12 touchdowns, three picks, 102.7 quarterback rating and was averaging over, you know, like seven and a half yards per attempt. before the game against New York, where Mike Zimmer felt like they threw too much and then started publicly talking about how they threw too much and getting frustrated with John DeFilippo.

And some people have said, and I haven't confirmed this with enough people to say for 100% certain, but that that was when Zimmer and DeFilippo sort of went to blows over the offensive philosophy. And so at that point in the season, they are mostly winning games. And they had some tough moments early in that year, like against Buffalo and against Green Bay. But their offense was good. And then it hits that skid. So there's always this with everything surrounding there.

It always comes back to this well how much is Zimmer's influence causing some of the things like you know Clint Kubiak and think about the very beginning of this year I told Clint Kubiak to get the heck up in that booth and right at that moment you and I went I never heard that before right and Kirk's more comfortable with Clint downstairs. Yeah. No. And look, when Mike is done here, part of the story on Mike is going to be, it's going to say, saw offense as a necessary evil. Because he really does. He really does.

And you know what? In 1985, that might have worked might have won your super bowl 2021 you got no chance and but i'll always say if that green bay quarterback was in purple i don't think mike zimmer handles any of this this way i that i've just i tend to think that mike if they had their chance matthew you know that they had their chance, Matthew, you know, that they had their chance, not once, but twice. I know 2005 will never end,

but there's always that. It sort of goes around and around. I would have told him to buzz off. Right. Kirk's never told him Kirk doesn't Kirk is passive aggressive. Aaron Rogers. He's just not good enough. Like Aaron Rogers would have told,

you know, I mean, look at Tom Brady told Bruce Arians after what, seven or eight weeks last season. Bruce, come here. We're done running your stupid offense. Yeah. And they won a Super Bowl because Bruce is like, OK, cool. Let's win a Super Bowl, baby.

So but this quarterback is not of that level. And I think, you know, if there was one, we'd be talking a different story. Matt Jones being with the Vikings right now might have saved Rick, but I really think that they need to clean house. This might have been actually a good offense for a rookie quarterback where, you know, you're staying away from making mistakes. And poor Kellen Mond, too, because I will say this in his defense. They got nobody with this team to develop it. Like, if he had a chance of being

developed it ain't here no uh well judd this was a lot of fun it was meant to be like a half an hour but this is what i have enjoy los angeles yeah thank you and i'm glad we could get together and talk we'll do it again soon and i will see you for a packers game that could have a lot of tension around it's gonna be juicy in the building won't it it's gonna be Zolgad in the press box next to each other side by side baby all right Matthew we'll talk to you bye thanks Jed