Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Lindsay Rhodes is putting Kevin O'Connell in the coach of the year conversation?

Episode Date: December 13, 2024

Kevin O'Connell has Sam Darnold playing the best ball of his career and the Vikings sitting at 11-2 with four games left in the season. Matthew Coller is joined by Lindsay Rhodes of SumerSports, who is putting O'Connell in her coach of the year conversation. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here and returning to the show to receive a metaphorical award for being correct about Sam Darnold. Lindsay Rhodes, co-host of the Super Sports Show. Yes, with Thomas Dimitrov, one of my favorites also former nfl network personality lindsey you were on point you came on the show i believe after week three or four and you were saying everybody in the world watch out sam darnold is going to keep doing this and i think we were all like okay lindsey let's calm down but no you were right 11 and 2 in the MVP race. Take a bow. Woo. I love being right.

It's so much more fun than being wrong. What a year it's been for him though. Like I wouldn't have predicted. I mean, I was, I was, I would say that my, my career long take for Sam Donald has been more in the camp of, I don't know that he is what you think he is.

As opposed to you just wait. He, he is better. think he is as opposed to you just wait he he is better it's just i didn't know that i wasn't convinced that we knew that he was terrible you know what i mean so i as much as i am happy to take all the victory laps um i i kind of feel like you know even i wasn't saying like sam darnold's gonna crush it this year i just thought that that was in the range of outcomes. And that was a wild thing for people to metabolize. So it's been so fun watching him. And even, you know, more recently, like, you know, having, you know, conversations about on the Sumer sports show, we all recently voted for a pro bowl. So that Matt stops gear friend, who is the producer of the Sumer Sports Show, he was writing an article about like, here's who we at Sumer would put in the Pro Bowl, which I think is always a fun exercise because it's a gross exercise in real life.

Right. Like it's a full fledged popularity contest. And so it was fun to go back and say, like, who would we actually think deserves think deserves to be in it and sam donald is such an interesting guy to discuss in that context because then it comes down to how much credit you want to give him um and kevin o'connell how much of it is just him like can you zero sam donald out and say you are a pro bowler this year or does that feel gross um because we know very specifically how much he's benefiting from his environment. Um, it's such an interesting conversation to me about, you know, just, you know, we don't have to split hairs about Sam Darnold, how much credit, uh, that's the fun of the NFL is it really doesn't matter. It's working,

but if you want to, it's also a fun conversation. I've always said that a place you want to be in the NFL is the outside world arguing over whether your quarterback is actually good or not because he's playing so well and you have so many good players and so many good coaches around him. Brock Purdy, can he really keep doing it? Jalen Hurts, is he a real quarterback or just the Eagles offensive line? Well, you don't have to give the wins back that you get with the quarterbacks when they do that. But that whole discussion is very tricky. And I was responding to something that Seth Walder of ESPN put out, like woods, what would Sam Darnold stats look like if he was playing for Carolina or something? And part of me says, and play for Carolina. So I don't know,

but has he actually gotten better or is he, was he actually good this whole time? And he just never had the environment, that whole thing. And what I see is someone who continues to get better because early in the season, they were running a lot on early downs. They were trying to play action as much as they could occasionally hit a deep shot, keep the train on the tracks. And what we saw against Atlanta and the second half of Arizona, when they had to come back is buddy, you're going to have to win it for us today. The defense isn't up 34 to seven because they got a bunch of picks and, you know, fumbles and sacks and everything else. Like they were giving up points to Atlanta and he had to go make those plays and he had to make a lot of them in rhythm

and with timing and accuracy. Like this is a guy who's playing complete quarterback. We've never seen that before from him in the NFL. No. And to go back to your original question of, did he get better or is he in a better environment? I think that the answer to that is clearly, in my opinion, both, both. And in, I think what we're seeing with regards

to the ways in which he's gotten better is the benefit of experience. And when you have more experience doing a thing, you know, the, the clock slows down and things become things that should be easy, feel easy, you know, as opposed to what you see with rookies all the time, which is like, everything is sped up and there's so much that's going on in their head that it's just, it's hard sometimes to do the easy things because there's just so much that you're trying to figure out. And what we're seeing with Sam is that he's at a point in his career where he's seen all of the things and he's done all the things. And whether he's had success in those environments or not, like he's been there. Like he knows how bad it can be.

He knows exactly what that looks like. Like, okay, then just go play. You know, everyone thinks you suck anyway. Like just go play. So there's like no pressure attached to the way that he's playing this year. And he's doing it with the benefit of, I think we can all relate to in our jobs, whether you become more valuable to your company over time, you actually are more valuable to your company over time

because you become more of an expert at the thing that you do and can cut through all of the BS a lot faster. The stuff that you don't need to actually spend time worrying about, you don't. And I think that it's clear in those comebacks and the things that we heard his teammates saying, there were a couple of those games where they would go into the locker room. I can't remember if it was Atlanta or not, but I remember seeing quotes, a lot of quotes coming

out of the locker room after one of these games where they were all saying the way that he behaved in the huddle. And they were all talking about the leadership and the calm and what he was communicating to them. And like, if this play doesn't work, then the next one we line up and we do the next play. Like, I think that there's so much value in that. And that's going back to the pro bowl conversations. Like, so do we just not reward that at all?

Like, do we not reward the intangible ways that a quarterback can improve and make their offense better? I think that it's clear that he has done that and that he is doing that for the Vikings. And so I think, you know, once you get to a certain tier, like, I mean, clearly the three best quarterbacks that you would put in the MVP conversation are on the AFC side. In Allen and Lamar and Burrow, in whatever order. But then once you get past that, now it's kind of a free-for-all. Because even in the NFC, like, who is your number one quarterback from a Pro Bowl voting standpoint?

It would probably be either Jaden Daniels, who we landed on for Sumer. That was like a consensus pick. I voted for Goff as my number one, but also, and then I put, I think I had Sam Darnold next, and people, as they will do in conversations like that, they're like, Sam Darnold. And I'm like, tell me how he's different than Jared Goff. We've just seen it from Jared Goff in a good environment in Detroit for longer. So now we're fine with it. But in terms of advanced metrics and experience and the ways in which that benefits the team and how you can handle all of these situations that your coach is putting you in that are

also good situations, but you still have to be able to play and they're checking those boxes. Right. And when it comes to Sam Darnold, he is pushing the ball down the field more than almost any other quarterback in the league other than Jameis Winston, who keeps pushing it down the field to the other team as he does. Darnold is, and I have always been a, you best respect to Jared Goff, uh, Vikings fans, because he has had some of his best career games against the Vikings. But when you compare the two, Goff is not asked to push the ball down the field as much as Sam Darnold is. When you look at those big time throw metrics from PFF or whatever number you want to look at average depth of target, Sam Darnold is is is hucking it down

the field this isn't some sort of cheap offense that they've put together for him to throw a bunch of screens and get yards after catch he hasn't thrown balloons up in the air and then have fallen into the arms of receivers like that one will levis start where everyone decided he was great he got four touchdowns or whatever yes Yes. That one, I think it was maybe his first start where he threw like four moon balls and they just completed it. And then it's never happened again, but that's not, that's not Darnold. These are 20 yard in cuts on time with pocket movement. And it's not that he's been flawless the entire year. He had that game in Jacksonville that was down just like Jared Goff

had his down game. But I think that he has done as much to push his offense forward as anybody in the NFC. I can't say that it's just like Josh Allen because that guy is on a different level to me. MVP, he could score six touchdowns by himself. That's a little bit different with the rushing. But when you look at the play creation for Sam Darnold outside of structure, like the one where he threw the 52 yard touchdown to Justin Jefferson, all those boxes have been checked along with the routine stuff. And I think he is as deserving as anybody to talk about as a pro bowl quarterback. Yeah. The, the deep ball numbers that you bring up are really interesting. And I hadn't necessarily looked into that myself, but I'm pulling that up as you're talking and 11%

deep ball rate compared to 6% for golf and then a 9.2 year area. It's per attempt compared to 7.1. So yeah, it's, it's not like he's being asked to, and then, well, I guess Jaden's numbers are actually higher than, than I thought. Cause they started off really low. But there are certain quarterbacks. Why is it not? Actually, Patrick Mahomes has a very low ADOT this year, which is wild, but that's not because he can't do it. Sometimes you see Russell Wilson. Actually, that's not a good example either because his ADOT,

it's like it's either short or it's a deep throw, right? So it evens out the average, but he's throwing a lot of check down passes, you know? And, um, that's not necessarily the, the way that we're seeing Sam Darnold quarterback this offense. And by the way, they're having success offensively in spite of what some would consider kind of a down year for, for the run game. You know, Aaron Jones, there's like conversation and you hear the Packers fans having it and probably like, um, in a way where they feel dirty having it. Cause they love Aaron Jones so much, but they're like, Oh, you know, Josh Jacobs. And, but then I was looking today at their advanced numbers and, uh, like Josh, Josh Jacobs on the season. I think the second

half of the season, I imagine if I just split it into the second half of the season, Josh Jacobs, his numbers would go way up, but his success rate is lower than Aaron Jones's on the season. And his rush EPA per attempt is lower than Aaron Jones's on the season, which I thought that that was kind of wild. Um, neither here nor there, because clearly Josh Jacobs has been incredible in green Bay for the second half of the season in particular. But, um, but anyway, my point being that, you know, Aaron Jones, they haven't necessarily gotten the production out of him that they would like to in these last few weeks. And in spite of that and the lack of a really strong, balanced offensive attack, Sam Darnold's still having success. And yeah, I am certainly not one who wants to take any credit away from him.

That's for sure. Though I do want to make sure that everyone and no one's, no one's struggling to acknowledge this. Like I think Kevin O'Connell is, is emblematic of what good coaching in the NFL looks like in the year 2024. I think so too. And I did want to get into that subject with you and with Darnold though,

the deep ball stuff, we do have to acknowledge the two wide receivers that he has are as good as anybody in the NFL when you throw it up. So it's the, you know, how much would he do if he played for another team or whatever? And nobody else has just as well outside of, you know,

Joe Burrow, but of course it wouldn't be as well. Right. But, but that, but that's never been the conversation about Sam Darnold because like you mentioned Josh Allen. So Josh Allen has proven and no one's debating

that he belongs in an elite, rarefied air type of quarterback. There's only like name the ones in the league that fit into that category. It's him, it's Patrick, it's Lamar. Like who else? like who else, who else can just carry you despite whatever is going on around them? I mean, maybe Joe Burrow, Joe Burrow is a very, very good quarterback. Um, but can he do it at the level that we're seeing him do it at regardless? I don't know. Uh, he has some pretty good wide receivers.

No one ever says, Hey, Joe Burrow has pretty good wide receivers. It's weird too. No one ever says, hey, Joe Burrow has had unbelievable wide receivers and a McVay coaching tree. It's just always been, it's always because he had success right away. It's just always been, oh, he's amazing. Well, period. Done with that. Right.

T T Higgins and Jamar chase. I mean, that's as good as it gets for a duo. We only do this because we previously saw Sam Darnold play bad at football. But realistically, you go back to 2022 and the end of that season where he went four and two as a starter for the Panthers. It's been a really long time in our lives since Sam Darnold wasn't good at this. I think he's won 15 of his last 20 starts with 102.5 quarterback rating in his last 20 starts. The sample just continues to grow. So of course I am obligated by the laws

of purple insider podcast to ask you about the future of Sam Darnold. I'm trying so hard to be like friends. You don't get 11 and two seasons all the time. Enjoy the ride, figure it out later, but it is the topic du jour. So what is your take? So I think that Sam is one of the more fascinating people that we even will see it within like a period of time in terms of this conversation, because we have seen him in environments that were bad

and they led to results that were bad. So I think more than most people who are facing any kind of paydays, he probably understands how much his environment is benefiting him. And I think a lot of people who have success, they're like, I am very good at this and now pay me please. And I will go wherever. Cause I'm very good at this. I think Sam is probably entering into a negotiation saying like, I have seen how the other half live and I don't want that. I don't want that because that's not fun because it doesn't set me up for success. I don't necessarily want people talking about, oh, that was a fluke because I was, you know, it was Kevin O'Connell and like,

who fucking cares? Like just stay in a good environment and have fun playing football in a way where like you can have some success. I think he's going to understand more than most that going to a bad organization or a bad offense or an unstable coaching situation is not good for him. And he's made enough money. I don't know how, I mean, everybody makes these decisions differently, right? And more power to him. If he just wants to go out and get the most bag, like the biggest bag this off season. Great. I tend to think that's probably not likely the case. I think that whatever number we're talking about that he has, it is now in the ballpark of is going to be plenty. And so I wonder how his team

approaches, approaches this, um, because what teams are looking for quarterbacks that are going to compete with, you know, him for salary, uh, like who's offering him a big number. Are they bad teams? most of the teams that need quarterbacks are bad teams like is it in his best interest to go there or maybe take less money and pick a spot whether that's minnesota i don't know how minnesota feels about jj and retaining sam or if they want to pivot to j i don't even i don't even know but like i just think that his options are actually smaller than most people who are having coming off good seasons and then in a position to uh pick a pick a new environment

because and then i think from a team standpoint if they're smart organizations which they might not be you know but if they're smart organizations then they probably have questions about how much this environment has to do with the Sam Darnold that we've seen and whether or not we would see this version of Sam Darnold if we plopped them into their environment, which might not be there yet. and we'll pay out the nose for you? Or are they going to say like, let's roll the dice on a rookie or something like that and try and build around it because we're just not there yet. I just think that he is specifically fascinating. It's true because I can't think off the top of my head. I have spent zero time thinking about what team Sam Darnold could go to or how he gets there. Like, do the Vikings franchise tag and trade him if they want to do

this and try to get draft capital or do they just let him go and say, Hey man, we'll let you go sign with wherever you want. But where is that? Like what team could emulate what the Vikings have? You know, it could really use a quarterback like Sam Darnold's those New York jets, a lot of talent there. Well, but Aaron Rogers is now saying like, maybe they are cursed. Oh, that's like the hot dog suit meme there. Like if we could only find the person responsible for the, for the curse.

Yes, yes, yes. But with the Vikings, they can't, they do have the option of kind of hedging on this and franchise tagging him and waiting and pushing this decision down the road. And while you might feel like that's a little unfair to Sam Darnold, still, that's an option they have in their bag.

And it happened with Kirk Cousins once upon a time in Washington. It happened to Dak Prescott last year. So it's not unprecedented to be unsure on a quarterback, but also happy with them and also feel like you're in a winning window. So you need to keep them. But the thing that is, I think, challenging for them is how they feel about JJ McCarthy, which they fell in love with JJ McCarthy over the off season. Kevin O'Connell was not screwing around when he called him the future of the franchise

after he got hurt. He wasn't just something to be nice. And that complicates things. And also in a way gives you an incredible fallback. If you do buy into Sam Darnold for another year and then it doesn't work out, or if he gets injured halfway through the season, you have JJ McCarthy. I think that we're approaching them taking that hedging approach for another year and not having to make this decision that everyone is having so much fun debating. I think that that's probably accurate because I would not feel comfortable if I was them coming off of this year, however it turns out, and just saying, thank you for your service.

We feel very good about this totally unproven asset and not backing that up. So I do think that they, I mean, and obviously they brought in Daniel Jones to give them a little bit of leverage. I think he's a leverage play for this., I, I don't, if you can retain Sam Darnold, then I don't think that that's, uh, something that you're necessarily, you're not worried about Daniel Jones, but, um, yeah, I think that that's, I think that that's probably a smart way to go about it. And honestly, for me though, it's not about, well, this is a small sample size and might the bottom fall out and should we back ourselves up with back him up with jj i think that they would like to pivot to jj for a bunch of different

reasons most of which are financial i mean regardless of like whether or not they think he's the next big thing it is a much smaller smarter way to build your team if you think you have a very good young quarterback who can also be good he's obviously also going to be cheap so i think that that's a smart building block strategy and they probably are prioritizing getting him on the field but i i would not feel comfortable just pivoting off of sam and being like have fun in wherever else you go we're fine here i don't i can't see that happening so much well one thing i was listening to Zach Lowe's podcast last year, RIP, I guess. He hasn't come back with a new podcast and I've been up a creek. So Zach, please come back soon. That was my jogging podcast, man. But I was listening to it last

year and he was making this point about how we thought that we knew where all these NBA franchises were headed by the time we got to say March or whatever. And he made the point. It really stuck with me. Let's watch the playoffs first, because you might think you've got everything figured out and the playoffs can totally change franchises, mindsets,

how owners feel, how coaches feel. Think about how good the Seattle Seahawks felt about themselves before Pete Carroll did not hand the ball off to Marshawn Lynch. Like things happen in the playoffs that people don't ever let go. Say maybe a check down on fourth and eight by Kirk Cousins, which I am certain that the entire Vikings organization never let go that he checked down that ball. And we don't know what's going to happen here one way or the other.

Maybe there's a throw off somebody's helmet that leads to them winning the Superbowl. Like we don't know, or, or there's three picks in the first round of the wild card and you go, yes, that's why we can't keep it. A hundred percent.

You're right. Whatever happens, that's the last taste that people have in their mouths about Sam Darnold in particular, since that's who we're talking about have in their mouths about Sam Darnold in particular, since that's who we're talking about, is going to drive the decision-making this offseason. I think that's a really smart way to approach it. Well, I mean, we saw it last year with Dan Campbell with the go for it on fourth down, and then people spend the offseason going to his house and terrorizing him.

He's Dan fucking Campbell. Like, this has been a godsend this is the best thing he is the best thing that has happened to detroit in i don't even know like since like music was invented like i don't know the cars like that like dan campbell is they should be thanking their lucky stars every single day that dan campbell came to detroit and that he goes about his business the way he goes about his business. And this is going to take me off subject for a minute, but like the fourth down stuff with Dan Campbell,

I will argue till I die. That is the reason that they are where they are, which we're all enjoying. Maybe not this audience, which the NFL and Lions fans are certainly enjoying and thankful for. Like it leads to more success than it leads to situations that you second guess. So to your point, though, you know, one that doesn't go his way, it's the last one and we're suddenly like splitting hairs

and we're super mad at him for an entire offseason. Like the exact same thing could happen to Sam Darnold or the opposite, you know, and they win games because he was there. And then that changes the narrative for him in the off season. Also, this happened in 2019 to the Vikings. They, I think we're pretty done with Kirk cousins by the end of 19. Then he throws a touchdown to the corner of the end zone to Kyle Rudolph, which he may or may not have pushed off on. They win in overtime against the saints. And then Rick Spielman at the combine says Kirk cousins has proven that he can win in the against the saints and then rick spielman at the combine says

kirk cousins has proven that he can win in the playoffs that of course is his only playoff win that was his entire career one time he did it but it proved it that's just to make the point and the vikings brought back zimmer and it was a calamity and they didn't draft a quarterback and all those things happen because they won the coin flip in overtime in the playoffs. So there could be a million ripple effects. And, uh, to your point about sometimes I just think that because there's so few games, we got to yell about something when it comes to Dan Campbell. I think he's 26 and seven since, uh, like the last two years. And I'm sure he's doing it wrong. I'm sure he doesn't know what he's doing. Yeah, obviously. That actually is almost a separate conversation

that I do think is bigger picture is that after the last one, a few weeks ago, when people were debating the fourth down, whether he should have taken the points or gone for it. And I tweeted out like, this is who he is.

This is why they are where they are. Like, get off of this conversation point. Um, a lot of people were like, yeah, but until one of these times he's going to lose an important game because of it. And my point with regards to that is that it is probably true. They probably will at some point, um, more teams lose their last game of the season than win their last game of the season. So it is entirely possible that that's how they're going to go down because that's how he will go down. That's how he feels comfortable operating this team. More often than not, it leads to success. The conversation point here that I think is interesting is,

is the most important thing that you win the Super Bowl? Is that the thing? And if he can't get to the Super Bowl, if he can't win a Super Bowl by doing this, then is this approach a failure? I think I would argue that the most important thing is not actually to win a Super Bowl. It is to have a chance to win a Super Bowl and to have your fan base believe every single week of the entire season that they are in a position to potentially win a Super Bowl. And if you can have your fan base believe that for a prolonged, sustained period of time, that's the goal.

That's what you're trying to get at because there is luck of variance that happens with regards to whether you win the Super Bowl or not. And ultimately, we've seen teams win whatever championship it is and then dismantle the team like one-offs like the Marlins come to mind in baseball, right? Like did that benefit the team? Did that benefit the city? No. Is what Dan Campbell has already done benefiting Detroit? Yes, in lots of ways. So I would actually argue that the most important thing is what he's already done which has given them hope that they can win a super bowl that's more important than actually

winning it and i think that that broadens out to like the approach that every team is probably going for like the goal is the super bowl but if you come up short of the super bowl is it not a successful season obviously not obviously that's not the case. I always think that the Dan Campbell conversation just says more about the person than it does about Dan Campbell. It's sort of like, well, one, why don't you want him to do this? This is like saying, Steph Curry, you should take those mid range jumpers. Why are you shooting from way out there?

That's not how the game is played. Like, what does it, it's not, it's not your, I don't know, it's like not your job on the line. Let's just watch this guy do some crazy stuff. The other point that's obvious in that game is that the whole defense is hurt and they have to score and close it out. Context matters, but they would not be as good as they are

if not for this approach. And I think it's an analysis hack to sound like a very smart person if you just keep saying it's going to get them in the end and then hey brock brock purdy for all those people who are like brock purdy's not that good oh did you see the incompletion and overtime against the chiefs he played in the snow against buffalo and it did not work. You know, like,

okay, we, we all got to get to come around eventually, except for on like Tom Brady or Josh Allen. And, and, you know, say that whatever we thought previously was right.

But the 2017 Philadelphia Eagles went for all of those fourth downs and it got them a Superbowl. And I don't see the difference except for the lions are maybe a better debate topic for television, but let us talk about that coach of the year thing, because I think Dan Campbell has got a phenomenal case for coach of the year. His team is the best in the NFC. We don't always like to give the best teams coach that award. It's sort of the, Hey, we didn't think you were going to be that good award, which that's us. That's over here in Minnesota, but Mike Tomlin

belongs in this discussion as well. Uh, Sean McDermott, it belongs in the conversation. How do you weigh the coach of the year odds and where Kevin O'Connell stands? I, I feel like I want to pull up a list just to make sure that I am not forgetting somebody. I think Dan Campbell is the favorite for me. What is this? Is this like an old year? What? Oh, is Dan Quinn the favorite?

That would be weird. an odd standpoint i just pulled up a betting website this must be old um no it anyway uh sorry uh this is good content right here incredible job he has done an incredible job with that team yeah but i'm No, I can't do that. To me, okay, yeah, no, this looks more updated. Yes, December 10th. So we're looking at Dan Campbell in this particular thing, minus 175, and then KOC reason is, to your point, that sometimes people don't like giving it to the best team in the NFL. To me, he has earned the vote this year by putting them in position to be the best team in the NFL. Like, you could have argued that Dan Campbell deserved it last year or the year before, or even in his first year, when you could feel the tide turning, even though they weren't winning games, you could feel what he was building. Like it was quite clear that they were going to be better to me. Um, and so I think that this is, this is like the payoff for that, right? Like,

and now look at in, in the last four years, what you have done, congratulations, coach of the year, you've consistently built to the point where now you're the best team in the NFC. And it feels pretty obvious. So I think Dan Campbell probably wins it for that reason. Also, all these words are narrative driven, and that is a fun narrative, right? Like people, people love the fact that he clearly deserves so much responsibility. And I think sometimes with coaches, people don't know how much responsibility to suss out. Like teams are good. And they're like, you know, so the Bengals are good one year is Zach Taylor, the coach of the year, you know, but they're like, I don't know, but he also got Joe Burrow and he has Jamar.

Like, is it him? Is it him? Or is it all those offensive weapons and then Lou Anarumo, right? Like, I think in this case, he has good offensive coordinators, but I think we know that Dan Campbell at least created the culture that is clearly working there

in Detroit and sort of drives everything. I think that Kevin O'Connell would be my second choice though, for sure. And I compare the two a lot and I, they're very different, but they're, they're similar in the sense that like, when you listen to those post game locker room speeches that coaches give, um, I feel like both of them come across as guys that really empower their locker room with a sense of belief and trust. And like they are both the wind at their players backs in a way that I think feels very now. And like Bill Belichick going to college has been a big conversation now. I feel like Bill Belichick, people are people are saying, like, I can't believe that an NFL team wouldn't do that.

And I can, I a hundred percent can. He feels like the opposite of what it, what works right now to me respectfully, because clearly he has had the most success in the history of the NFL and we're going to, he's goaded, right? But for right now, what we saw from him in new England in the history of the NFL and we're gonna he's goaded right but for right now what we saw from him in New England the last few years I think that that was him I think that the reason that they didn't have success required a look in the mirror um and I don't know that he did like I don't I don't know I haven't seen anything where he's turned around and and but like he's the guy that points the finger at the Patriots and like kind of throws darts that direction.

And so I don't know if he's like learned the ways that he contributed to that. In my opinion, again, I'm not in the building. I don't freaking know. But, but that feels very not the way that people respond to now.

Like I listened to Kevin O'Connell and I think, man, the guys in that locker room are going to do whatever Dan Campbell, same thing. Like they will run through all of the walls. So if you can actually coach from an X's and O's standpoint and get your team to buy in, in the way that they clearly have, that's the recipe for success. That's what you want to do. And that's what I would be looking for in every head coaching candidate that I interviewed if I was in a front office. Your read on this is extremely good from my up-close view of O'Connell, because I did a story on the post-game speeches and what Brian O'Neill said to me was, I mean, it's cool for our fans to see 45 seconds of our coach. He's like that 24 seven toward us. If, if it was just a show for the

cameras and for social media, then, you know, whatever, but it's not like, that's who he really is. And what we've seen from Sam Darnold, there's a tie back into that conversation, which is confidence. And you talk about how he's led game winning drives, how he's had those situations in Chicago where they're in overtime in Arizona. Yeah, it was Chicago, but he did the same thing the following week where he's just kind of been like stone face confident. And then they need a big drive from him last week. It's 21, 21 flies down the field, scores a touchdown, great timing, deep ball, all that confidence he's shown. I think the foundation of that is built from the belief of his coach. Like we bought into you. I've always believed in you.

And here we go. And I'm thinking about where Jared Goff probably was mentally when he got traded to Detroit. Yes. Right. Like as low as it could probably get. And then the other team wins the Superbowl, my gosh. And there's Dan Campbell pushing him to the front, pushing him to the front. I think that coaching style, I actually hope it gets adopted throughout the nation to be more on the positive side and more of like believing in your players type of thing. But both of those coaches have gotten every bit out of their rosters and more. I think what might determine it is these final four games. That's the next thing I wanted to ask you about.

The Vikings have four games left. They're not going to be easy. They play the bears Monday night football, but it's, it's not, it's not ever easy against the bears. They're the bears. There's a long history of nonsense with that team. And then it's, and then it's Seattle. Oh, it's if I, we could spend all day with me telling you about the ridiculous losses

the Vikings have had through the years, but, and then they almost did it again in soldier field, but you've got the bears and then at Seattle, then the Packers at home and then Detroit week 18. This is not easy. If the Vikings win three out of four there. I mean,

I don't think the conference is completely decided yet. It's, that is a wild end of season stretch. And the fact that so many of the NFC North teams, just looking at the NFC playoff picture and then zooming out in terms of like the wildcard births, the NFC North is in a position to potentially eat its own you know in it just in the sense that like it's so backloaded and some of these other divisions are not like that so um it's tough man the the one thing that I will say is I think you're getting Chicago at the best possible time and my concern with them and I'd be actually curious to hear from you because this is something I keep meaning to do a deep like I keep meaning to go specifically look for these answers, but I haven't had time yet this week. What felt really

obvious to me with Chicago this past week was it was too much too soon for the interim coach and not that he can't, but like you went from being an assistant to being a first time offensive coordinator who's up in the booth and now you're having success. And now in addition to that role, so going to give you first time head coaching responsibilities, but also continue to do the offensive coordinator thing, but also do it down on the sideline for the first time, instead of up in the booth and do it all. Thank you. And by the way, this is a team that just fired a Ted coach for a reason. So good luck. Uh, so I, I felt like watching that game and the ways in which Chicago just fell so flat against San Francisco in ways that I didn't anticipate. To me, it felt like it pointed to that. Like it was

inconsistent with what we've seen from the offense for the last couple of weeks since he took over. And so I'd be curious about ways that they might have addressed that in-house and maybe changed the way that they wanted to approach things this week to sort of alleviate that problem because it felt so obviously like the problem last week. Well, one thing I know is that being a play caller and head coach, I assume you're still calling the plays is, uh, really tough. I mean, it took Kevin O'Connell till I even think earlier this season, he had to have some players tell him like, dude, you got to get the play calls in.

You can't be arguing with the referees and things like that. It's very hard to do through the years. Even Andy Reed has passed off play calling duties at times when it, when they needed a boost or when it was getting a little bit too much. So that's really difficult, especially for a guy who's never done any of that and never had that pressure. Everything points to this being a calamity for the bears and the Vikings running them out of the building. It's really one of those things where just like with Kirk last week comes off the four interception game and you go, is he going to bounce back? But what happened in Chicago was

the Vikings just outplayed Chicago for the entire game. And then they got a silly onside kick and a long kick return. And Caleb Williams did scramble around like a maniac and make a bunch of amazing plays. I think that's the only path. Like that team is just down. And where I'll give Matt Eberflus credit, the man has no idea how to form a T with his hands, but he does know how to draw up a defense. He gave

the Vikings problems defensively over the years. So him not being in the building, I think actually really points toward the Vikings and their benefit too. God, that's such a perfect example too, of like coaches who become head coaches that maybe just aren't head coaches and are really good coordinators. But once they are a head coach, kind of like taints their brand, you know, as opposed to which I'll be fascinated to see about Ben Johnson, you know, because the fact that he turned down the jobs last year sort of raises a question about whether or not he's being strategic or whether or not he just likes being an offensive coordinator and doesn't really care about the head coaching stuff

and all of the very different like it's just a different job. You're not, you're not doing the things that you might love doing as, as a coordinator, as a, as an assistant coach, like the head coaching job is a figurehead job. Like it comes with totally different responsibilities that sometimes are not just an elevated version of what you're doing as a coordinator. So yeah, that's a, that's a really interesting point about Ibra Flues. I think obviously it was time for them to move off of him. The game management stuff, and actually I don't have the numbers right in front of me, but I always track margin of victory throughout the season.

And one of the things that I thought was fascinating the week before they fired him or right after they fired him, the, the Falcons were minus 34, uh, margin of victory on the season at this particular moment in time. And they were sitting in the four seed cause their divisions crap. And so, you know, and then the bears were like the 14th seed in the NFC and they were plus

one. And I was like, that is wild that they're plus one on the season, but they have the record that they have. It all points to game management. And what would that record be if they manage those end of game situations better? Like that is an awful stat in terms of the head coach. Like that does not tell us even without watching the games and we did and we know what it looked like just looking at those numbers you're like there's something wrong here right that that looks like it might point to that particular person on the sideline and so i think it was smart that they moved on i think that the bummer for them might be that they moved on in such in the succession that they did right you know Right. But also for them, whatever, right.

They're, they're not going anywhere this year anyway. Like you'd like to end on a positive note with some momentum going into the off season, but like the, they needed to make those moves anyway. So whether it in the short term is not beneficial for them, like,

okay. It, it, it affects you guys and the teams that are playing them i think more than anything else and um yeah i think it probably benefits you positively this week in terms of though taking them seriously the point differential and all the close games and think they're a little bit better than their record if they could have just not tried to hand off to the guard. How does that come into the headset and get the, yeah,

it sounds good. That sounds good. I mean, even if you're Caleb Williams, that's where now do that now in the future, if you're Caleb Williams and your play caller sends in the hand off to the guard, you're like,

I didn't hear it. I didn't hear it. What? What? Yeah. Right. Your piece. No.

Why? Oh yeah. He'll, he'll, he'll learn. I think he's very talented. Before you run, it's been such an entertaining conversation as it always is with you, Lindsay. What do you want to know from me? Got any questions? Oh my God. Yes. Okay. All right. What is going on with Aaron? What should I expect? Because here's my last year,

Aaron had a history of like, so there were injuries involved, but also by the end of the season, it also felt a little like a load managementy the way that like, cause then at the end of the season, he looked like exactly the Aaron Rogers that we had all been waiting for all season long. There is definitely a part of my brain that is wondering if the Vikings are just sort of like handling him similarly. Um, can I get optimistic about that? You're the second guest this week that called Aaron Jones, Aaron Rogers, by the way.

Oh no. Sorry. Take it back. Edit, edit. Ew. My bad. We all just talk about aaron rogers so much could two aarons be more different by the way like i know they're so different i know aaron jones i saw somebody who works for the packers tweet that he would give a kidney or something to aaron jones if he needed it and i was like that seems like excessive and then then I was around Aaron Jones. I'm like, I get it. Totally. Does he call you sir? Unbelievable human being. Does he what?

Does he call you sir? Uh, he will answer. Yes. He will answer questions with yes, sir. Uh, his, he grew up in a military family and, uh, his mom told him he deserved to be benched the other week when he fumbled. But, uh, yeah, he is, but he is, I think somebody that makes every single person around him better all the time. And that alone has had a big impact on their team. And I mean, overall, I think he's 10th in the league in rushing or something.

They've gotten what they paid for, for Aaron Jones. It's just that he started out so well that it seems like a bit of a fall off. There was a rib injury in the middle of the season, which I think was really tough for him. I think that that would, I mean, imagine being a running back. Where do you get hit all the time? You fall on the football. As that's gotten better and he's back to practicing fully most of the time, he seemed to have his burst back.

He played well against Chicago, did get benched briefly for the fumbles against Arizona. They were playing from behind, so they had to throw all the time and then ran pretty well. I think he averaged five something yards carry against Atlanta. I think he'll be fine. It's just the one thing about their offensive line is that they lost Christian Derrissaw and they benched their right guard who was more of a run blocker because he was really struggling in pass pro and their right guard who is in there now Dalton Reisner is a good pass protector but is not the most dominant run blocker so they've significantly downgraded in terms of the run blocking I think that that's hurt him a little bit too but you know last week he

looked like he had burst and what he's amazing at is he doesn't ever take negative runs. It's incredible. Like they pitch it to him. He finds seams and things like that. But if, if he gets hot, would not count that out. Cam Akers has done a good job of spelling him. You could see him down the stretch, winning people's fantasy football championships and things like that, having some big games and they're going to need them because they just, they don't run a lot of plays. They hit so many big shots. They'll have 50 plays in a game. I think they need to have him running a lot more often. I, I am a huge fan of him personally. I'm having spent a very short period of time around him, like super small, just like

real quick at NFL network. And he won me over. And then everything I've seen from him since then is the kind of thing that you're like, yep, what he was to me seems like how he is all the time to all the people. And so he's so easy to root for from the outside. He also, I think, as you were talking about the way he is as a teammate, is probably the perfect running back to be in the backfield with Sam Darnold in a year like this, because I mean, talk about confidence inspiring. If like, you've got all these people that are wind at your back type teammates, then

it creates an environment where, you know, there might be a game where Sam Darnold feels like he has to force a throw competitively for, for competitive purposes. Cause like a check down does nothing for you, Kirk Cousins. Um, and so, you know, maybe that gets picked off. Like, I think that your confidence in that moment, that it's fine to do that and that your team will understand the situation. Uh, I think that that'll, that'll helps in a lot of intangible ways. I have one more question for you. Okay. This is a doesn't matter in the bigger picture, but in terms of awards, I'm curious because you have had a front row seat. Which of the outside linebackers would you vote for first in like a pro bowl voting. Cause this was, this was a dilemma that I had,

um, with both of them who were definitely in my top six at that position. But I was like, which one I put greener first. They are so different. Um, Grenard, by the way, make that mistake to him. He doesn't like that. Uh, he told us that in his first press conference. So I won't do it again. He might call him Aaron Rogers, but yes, exactly. Uh,

but, uh, they're so different. Uh, Van Ginkle is such a dynamic player. He drops back into coverage more than any address or in the NFL. And there are very few players that are doing both of those things, making an actual impact. Usually you're dropping back off the defensive line to just be there and

maybe fool a quarterback now and then, but he's a legitimate covered player and has got pick sixes. I mean, that's the difference that he's got touchdowns, but Grenard has been the closer and also a pressure monster. He didn't get any last week because Kirk Cousins was chucking and ducking, but he went into last week leading the NFL in pressures. And when they've needed a big rush, the play that he made at the end of the Arizona Cardinals game, chasing down Kyler Murray to stop him there when he had a chance at a game-winning drive, I would say Jonathan Grenard is probably the guy that I would pick, but it is, it's hard. I mean, how about, how about crazy awful Mensa going into free agency and getting those two guys and Sam Darnold for $10 million, uh, playing top

five to seven quarterback play wild. It's pretty good off season. Yeah. It's pretty good off season. That's how you go 11 and two. So I guess I would, I would lean ever so slightly Grenard, but. Okay. That's what I did. It's a tough one. That's what I did. Sumer sports show you and Thomas Dimitrov, former NFL general manager. I'm always interested in what he has to say.

Sometimes, sometimes he dances around these things. I want to see, come on, Thomas, give me that hot take on the Vikings quarterback situation. So, uh, no, anyway, you guys do a great show and always appreciate you for, uh,

for coming on. And, uh, I don't walk, walk it off on Sam Darnold. You called it very early in the season. Say, say what you want to say to finish the show.

I'm the best. Yeah, no, I, I hope it ends well, whichever way. To your point about how it ends in the playoffs will dictate a lot of whether we have a good taste in our mouth for the rest of the year. And so I hadn't really thought about it that way. And I think that's a very smart point to make. And also to my point about like one team, one team at the end is happy. So I,

I think I'm, I'm like fingers crossed that at least, you know, if it's not the Vikings hoisting the Lombardi, that it, it, you know, they,

they exited in a way that was palatable. You should have just taken your microphone and dropped it. That's what you should have done. There you go. Okay. I'm sorry. Take out everything I said after that. There you go.

Thank you, Lindsay. Thank you.