Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Lions beat writer Mike Payton answers random Lions questions

Episode Date: June 27, 2024

Matthew Coller talks with Mike Payton about random Lions stuff -- everything from if Matthew Stafford stayed to whether Aaron Glenn is a good defensive coordinator Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple and Simon, Matthew Collar here and joining the show for the first time, although we followed each other on Twitter for a long time. So I feel like we semi know each other, even though we don't know each other. Mike Payton, A to Z Sports, Detroit Lions beat writer. Great to have you on the show for the first time. I thought that you would be a great guest, Mike, to join for Random Questions Week so I can ask you random Detroit Lions questions. So how are you? I? Good. Thanks for having me, man. I'm looking forward to the randomness.

First of all, okay, here's the first random question. This is sort of like a casual, let's get ourselves into the discussion, but it's a random question. How do you feel about covering a winning team? Because this is not usual for you. This had to be strange. Over the last year, you've had to be maybe a different person in covering the Detroit Lions than you were before.

It's interesting because I told people for a long time that it was almost easier to cover the team when they were losing because there was a lot that you could gripe about, and there was a lot of things that you could be like, who's going to get fired or who's going to get traded this um but you know covering the team as a winning team this last year was i think it's probably the most fun i've had in my entire career like it's it's a whole nother it's a whole nother world when you know i've covered the team when they were like a playoff team a couple of times in 2014 and 2016 but you know those they were first round exits and like you

kind of knew that they would be um except for that 2014 thing with the cowboys picked up flag but we won't get into that uh but this year like it was incredible you know being in that that stadium against the rams uh up in the press box with like you you know, I mean, there's just a bunch of the whole national media was there like legendary reporters and, and just getting to meet some cool people. And then the whole crowd chanting Jared Goff's name or like a wrestling event. Like it's, I've never been a part of anything like that before. It was incredible. So it has been a lot a lot of fun it it it is a little bit harder because it's like what can you really complain about at this point um but yeah it's it's definitely different something new now i know the feeling uh in 2016 my first year covering the vikings there

was a lot of calamity a lot of there, there was the Bridgewater injury, and then there were things going on and the offensive coordinator just all of a sudden quits and they missed the playoffs. And so there was a lot of criticizing and you're right about that where when things are going wrong, they're just there for you to talk about. This is what they did wrong to have this offensive line that can't block for Sam Bradford. And here you go. But when they're winning, sometimes you almost feel like, wait, am I not being a real enough journalist here?

Am I not being objective enough? Because all my articles are just gestures at awesome thing. But it also the same deal with going to the NFC championship game, covering the Minneapolis miracle for me and some other moments like when Teddy Bridgewater come came back, those stick with you a lot longer, I think than when your team that you're covering just kind of blows it. Um, and, and isn't any good. Uh, so that, that is interesting for you. Um, my next random question though, is a totally not related to this at all.

I really liked Barryers growing up as every person did who's about my age played with him on every video game had his jersey backyard with my brother doing barry sanders moves who's the next best detroit lion though like everyone agrees that barry sanders is the goat right of the detroit. Who's number two? If you're making your Mount Rushmore, do you have a Mount Rushmore? Who's number two? Well, I think it's super easy. It's Calvin Johnson. Like, it's, you know, I watched that man do incredible things,

you know, almost 300 yards, or over 300 yards, rather, against the Cowboys in 2013. Like, that was, we were in the building for that game as a fan. I wasn't quite a writer yet, but that was like the most amazing thing I've ever seen. Or, or this catch that he made against the Bengals that same season where he went up against like four guys,

like he just could do anything. And, and when you watched him, you were in amazement every week. And, you know, when he retired, it was like, I don't know if the Lions will ever be fun again. Like that was the feelings when that happened.

So I've got to go with Calvin. Okay. It makes a lot of sense. The thing about Calvin Johnson, as from someone who is not there in Detroit, is how rarely I saw Kelvin Johnson play. When he was playing, I was living in Buffalo and starting my media career there. And the Bills didn't play the Lions that often. And even if you were in Minnesota and you're watching these Vikings and Detroit games, you would see him a couple of times of year, but how many other times? And now everybody's got red zone so you see all the highlights the fantasy football has exploded you talk about if there's a great

player on a middling or bad team you think that that guy's awesome because you're paying so much attention to every team and you're seeing every highlight because of social media he was just before that for me and so if you asked me like like, what's the best Kelvin Johnson game that you actually watched? I don't remember watching that many. It was, did he do something on Thanksgiving? They probably lost by 28 points to somebody. I think that's hard for him. If he was playing right now and it was the same circumstances, everyone would talk about

how awesome he was all the time. Yeah, no, I mean, without question, he does have a really good Thanksgiving game against the Eagles where he just, I mean, poor Eric Rowe, like tried his hardest, you know, but he just could not stop. I think he had like two or three touchdowns in that game. It was a, it was a route of a win by the Lions, but, but, you know, I understand. I get what you're saying. It's when you when you're kind of outside of that world and it's before social media really tacks on the way that it is now. I do wonder what what people would have thought about him at that, you know, like if the social media and in the takes, you know, from from basically everything's just takes now. If they were at that height, like i wonder what that would have been does he just demand a trade like oh that's what receivers do when they're unhappy right if it's not working out after their first contract they just find their way out of there

i mean we've had stefan diggs do it here and then stefan diggs did it kind of again in buffalo and brandon iuk presently seems to be trying to make his way out and oftentimes aj brown when they wouldn't sign the contract they end up trading him and tyree kill teams are getting so much for these wide receivers as well that it becomes semi-favorable this does not apply to justin jefferson semi favorable to trade someone like that but during the era he was playing we just didn't see a whole heck of a lot of that i think that i think he would have just forced the trade, right? I don't think so. I don't want to disparage Brandon Ayuk or Stefan Diggs.

They wanted to be somewhere else. It's a player empowerment era. That's totally cool. Go get your money. Go play where you want to play. But Calvin was more of like a i just don't see like he was like a character guy like i don't see any world in which he would have forced to trade like he could have done that but he retired instead uh there were plenty of teams that were

certainly interested in him and and and they i'm sure they could have made something work but that just didn't happen so i don't i don't i don't think that he would do that. But again, it is a whole other era these days. So yeah, I mean, players want to get out. It's in the NBA, it's in the NFL, it's wherever. Like players want to go play where they want to play and then they'll change their mind and want to play somewhere else after that. And yeah, then you get a Kevin Durant situation.

Yeah, it doesn't apply to everyone. I mean, Carl Anthony Towns here stuck it out and waited until they became good. But the difference with him and Barry Sanders is that with Barry Sanders, they were pretty good. I mean, they had their chances. They just didn't go over the hump. But year after year, they were a competitive team. They were in the playoffs. The one Scott Mitchell year where he throws for 4,000 yards and they've got Brett Perriman and Johnny Morton and Herman Moore. And they were a dangerous, relevant team with Kelvin Johnson. I feel like if you were ranking sort of tragic situations for all-time great players ever, he's on the poster. If you were

just making this like guys who didn't deserve it, then he's probably up there yeah i mean you know you get drafted in 2007 and very next year your second year in the in the league your team goes i went 16 the first team to ever do it um you know obviously you got to go through a couple years matthew stafford gets injured his first two years you're playing with like sean hill and stuff like that still dante cold pepper was on the team and and then you know 2011 year, they kind of explode. And they were supposed to go back to the playoffs in 2012. But I don't know. I don't know what happened that year.

Like they just faltered so badly. And 2013, down the line, they were going to win the division. Aaron Rodgers was hurt. The Vikings were struggling. The Bears were struggling. And then they just faltered that. Yeah, I mean, it's a a series of falters really bad just moments where things could have happened it just didn't and you know looking back i mean i can't i can't blame anyone for wanting to get out of that situation right and uh such as uh following the lions all the way through a lot of their

history with kelvin johnson unfortunately so i was thinking about Kelvin Johnson in general and how you have this history of really good wide receivers in Detroit. I'm in Ross St. Brown, probably the most aside from the fantasy freaks, aside from those people, the most underappreciated elite wide receiver in the NFL, not so much anymore since he got his contract,

but just demolishes the Vikings every time. If you had to play one game with one wide receiver ever, Moss or Calvin Johnson, which one would it be? Oh, Calvin Johnson. Okay. Not just a homer pick, but I feel like Calvin could make any quarterback great. And we saw him do it with multiple. I mentioned Culpepper and Kitna and Dan Orlovsky and Drew Stanton and Sean Hill.

Some of the guys he's had to play with during injuries or before Stafford. Like, you know, those guys probably thank Calvin for some of the highlights that they were able to get. Moss, you know, Moss comes into the league. He's got like Dante Culpepper, a Pro Bowl quarterback right away. Then he goes to Brady and has, you know, one of the greatest receiver season. I would say arguably the greatest receiver season of all time, at least touchdowns-wise. And then by the time he's done there, it doesn't really matter who he was playing with

because he's at the tail end of his career. But I think he just got lucky and got two pretty solid quarterbacks to start off with. Oh, and he was with, he was at the Raiders for a little while too, right? Like with Rich Gannon or something. I can't remember who they're Kerry Collins. I don't know if I want to give him too much credit for the Kerry Collins, but Collins didn't get to the Superbowl. I think it was at the giants though. Yes. Uh, but yeah, uh, yeah, I, I, I gotta, I gotta go with, I gotta go with Calvin. I it's really hard though.

Is, is that better? Is Cary Collins better than Drew Stanton? Yes, that is fair. Yes, absolutely. And coming into the league, playing with Randall Cunningham, of course Randall Cunningham previously had been one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL, revamped his career in 98 with Randy Moss. And you're right about Dante Culpepper,

that even the year where Moss was banged up, Culpepper had one of his best seasons in 2004. So he did play with some very good quarterbacks throughout his career. The reason I might pick Moss. And again, I am having a little bit more of a difficult time just envisioning all the things Calvin Johnson could do. I mean, I know how great he is, but it's so much easier with Moss because I watched so much of Moss and I'm here and I've seen his highlights in his games a thousand times and everything, but the ability for Moss to do anything at any level at any time. So if you like that famous Thanksgiving game, one get one touchdown, it's a bomb one touchdown. It's a bomb. One touchdown. It's a screen. And he goes yards after catch. He threw a touchdown. He had a punt return for touchdown where they threw him back there.

It was like Randy Moss could play any position, do anything at any time. And then I'm going to give, I'm going to give an edge here of an attitude edge. This has no bearing on which player I would actually want. In your locker room, you'd probably rather have Calvin Johnson because he was less dramatic, but mooning the Green Bay fans, playing with the chip on his shoulder that Randy Moss did, it gave a competitive vibe to me that was a little bit different. And I know that's not fair to Calvin Johnson. Oh, how dare you just be classy and go about your business, Kelvin Johnson. But as growing up at that time, I was 12 years old when Moss is exploding.

It's just, you loved all the style about Randy Moss. So I guess I'm going to give slight edge there for that. Well, I mean, I totally get it. Like, I think you could argue either way, but Randy, like, obviously if I were to, it's weird because I chose Calvin, but if I were to say like, who's the number two greatest receiver all time, assuming that we're all going to say that Jerry Rice is the number one, I would, I would probably say Randy Moss is the second best receiver of all time, even though I would still take Calvin for, you know, I don't know. Maybe it's just my heart is attached to it. I don't know. No, I get it because Calvin is less volatile emotionally. One thing with Randy Moss, there are very few issues that you could ever point to with Calvin Johnson.

He probably blocked more. He probably did a lot of the little things a little bit more than Randy Moss did. And you could count on him a little more on a week to week basis uh and so maybe a maybe a little bit different um than randy moss but obviously two of the best to ever play how about this for another random question um what what would have happened to the detroit lions in their trajectory had they not traded away matthew stafford like what would we be talking about right now? How would the Detroit Lions look as a franchise if they never traded Matthew Stafford to the Los Angeles Rams? Well, you know, that's really, really, really different. Like very, very different because those picks that they got back from the, from the trade allowed them to get a bunch of different guys.

Jameer Gibbs, Afitu Melifanwu. There's 5'7". Sam Laporta was part of that. All those picks kind of worked into other trades. I mean, it's really hard. Obviously, the one thing that really helped the Lions in their rebuild is that they didn't have to draft a quarterback at any point. So they'd still have that advantage by having Stafford.

He might have been a little bit more expensive up front, and they would have had to have paid him a little bit earlier than they would have had to have paid Goff. But, you know, man, that's a hard one because do they still have the pick uh have the pick to to draft you know jameson williams do they still do they still go for amin rah st brown in the fourth round i mean like it's you know it's a really interesting thing um yeah i don't know i think i think the best thing that happened for both teams was was this trade and i don't i don't know if you would have told me that on you know in january 2021 if i would have believed you but or 2020 rather whenever that was i i don't think i would have believed you but uh but it's absolutely true it's just affected so much for both rosters both franchises rather well and the question too is Ben Johnson still the same Ben Johnson? Does it work the same way?

Because you could make a case that they wouldn't have quite the roster strength that they do now, as you mentioned, that some of those draft picks have really been home runs, but would still have come out of that. It was still a tanky situation, and maybe they don't start, what was it, 0-10 until they beat the vikings on the uh cam dantzler playing too far back in the end zone throw at the end of the game yeah uh but very very unlikely that they lose that many games because matthew stafford probably puts the team on

his back in ways that jared goff couldn't uh at that point but still i think that they would have come out of that if they had stuck with it with that still being competitive but maybe in the way that they were competitive in 2016 for example or 2017 for example where those are good teams with lots of good players that are just not good enough and stafford alone was never himself just going to do the Mahomes thing and take it over the top. Tangentially related is another random question. Go ahead. I do want to make one little point here because if Stafford stays, I don't know if Ben Johnson happens because Ben Johnson was the tight ends coach

and Anthony Lynn was the offensive coordinator in 2021. And Anthony Lynn gets moved aside because he's just not gelling with golf. So I don't know how he gels with staff. And if he does gel with Stafford, well, does Ben Johnson just stay as the tight ends coach? Now he was like, he was helping out kind of sort of passing in plays like,

and you know, like this, we should run this play. We should try this. And he was sort of passing in plays like and you know like this we should run this play we should try this and he was sort of helping in that in that regard but um i don't know you know uh if if if lynn doesn't get moved aside near the bye week in 2021 and dan campbell takes over plays with ben johnson if none of that happens i don't know if ben johnson is ben johnson no that's a good point because maybe matthew stafford would just kind of be a good soldier about the offense and do whatever he could and it wouldn't have gotten to this person who is considered now one of the best play callers in the entire nfl and it's kind of a franchise shifting moment now of turning it over to ben

johnson and not the fact that he stays because you know gonna try to win a Super Bowl and all those things that domino effect may have never taken place if Matthew Stafford ends up staying with Stafford here's another part of this scenario that I'm interested in if he stays and let's just say it turns around to some extent and he plays well and maybe there's a playoff win before the end of his career but he never goes what is the legacy of matt stafford when compared to what it is now in detroit like the detroit fans love matthew stafford unequivocally they were super happy when he won the super bowl they thought he believed it and the narrative on matthew stafford now is had he only had a better franchise he may have had more of a Hall of Fame caliber career if they had been more competent along the way. But when he was traded to

Los Angeles, I was skeptical of that move, wrongly, but I was skeptical of that move because I had seen Stafford turn the ball over in big spots a million times, took a lot of sacks. His stats weren't wildly different than someone like Kirk Cousins, even though he was more gifted and more entertaining to watch play, I think, with his talent. But if he had stayed and they didn't get much farther or didn't win a playoff game, it may have been a lot more meh than what we can do now with it,

which is say, well, he was capable of that, so it wasn't his fault when he was with Detroit it was everybody else's fault I'm interested in in the comparison of the legacy go versus stay well I think you know when you kind of look back on it now like it it people were upset when he left but at the same time they were like ready for it because nothing had happened you know he had been with the same time they were like ready for it because nothing had happened you know he had been with the lions since 2009 they made it to the playoffs a couple times he had some incredible games had some really amazing throws some highlights but nothing had paid off

and they kept trying everything and he had been supplied with calvin johnson and golden tate marvin jones and a good kenny gallay, and a young TJ Hawkinson. And he had so many great weapons and a solid offensive line. And that 2014 defense was one of the better defenses in NFL history, believe it or not. I mean, it was a solid, solid defense. I mean, it just couldn't happen. It just never happened.

And I think that that would be his legacy in Detroit, is that he was just the guy who, while he may be the greatest Detroit Lions quarterback of all time, he owns the records, he owns all the franchise records that you want him to own, and created some incredible moments you know i brought up that calvin johnson uh 300 plus yard game you know that's the game where stafford uh did the the the dive into the end zone at the very end of the game and they came back to win uh after like five turnovers it was such a bad game i couldn't believe they won that game but like that's a moment that everybody always remembers i think it's just been eclipsed at this point by, you know, beating the Rams in the playoffs and then beating the Buccaneers the next week. And I think everybody's just kind of forgot about that. But yeah, the legacy would be is a guy who created some great moments, kind of put the

lines on the map in terms of passing the ball, but never really never wanted it. Hey, U.S. Cellular customers, I've got some good good news so do not hit that skip forward button just yet i'm talking about their special customer event us days what's us days it means exclusive offers just for their customers just to say thanks like twelve hundred dollars off any phone plus three hundred300 off any tablet. No, I did not misread that. They must really like you all.

Us Days at U.S. Cellular. Exclusive offers just for you, just to say thanks. Right now, U.S. Cellular customers get $1,200 off any phone plus $300 off any tablet. Terms apply. Right, and how delicate these legacy things are $300 off any tablet terms apply. Right. And how delicate these legacy things are. When you think about that season with the Rams, they have a stretch where he is very

bad and they lose a couple of games in a row. He throws a bunch of interceptions in the middle of the season. They kind of go in and I believe they had to go on the road to play the Bucs. And they almost give up the huge comeback from Tom Brady and the Bucs. But for some reason, Todd Bowles decided to play the wrong defense. I forget exactly how it went and he ends up winning the game. And then in the NFC championship, one that should be talked about forever in San Francisco, the dropped interception where Stafford does the thing that he always does,

which is I'm just going for it. Just get it to heave it up. There should have been picked, ends up getting dropped. And then even in the Superbowl, Joe Burrows got the ball with a chance to go win the Superbowl and keep Matthew Stafford from winning it. Aaron Donald sacks him. Matthew Stafford gets to be a champion when he really did mostly Matthew Stafford things. It just turned out differently. It's sort of like that roll the dice enough times and you'll get the number that you're looking for. And he just rolled the dice. He was volatile and super talented for a long time. And then it worked. And weirdly, I thought last year he played maybe some of his best football last season. So that can also change too, that the players develop and they get better. Here's a Lions Vikings crossover, random question for you.

Do you think that the history of teams rests on the shoulders of players and impacts how they play? Just for example, every Vikings kicker at some point by a local TV person will be asked about the history of Vikings kickers missing all the time. Even though Greg Joseph or Will Reichard or whoever the kickers have been, Kai Forbath, they had nothing to do with it, but Gary Anderson missed, then Blair Walsh missed. So that's going to be a thing forever. And they'll, they'll get asked about it. I've never thought that the kickers missed kicks because of it. I think kickers just miss kicks.

But do you think that the, like, how do you think that all the losing impacts the current regime, the current players, everybody who's here right now? I don't think it impacts anything. I mean, obviously, it's a great motivator to say that, hey, we could be the team that I don't think it impacts anything. the film room turn up or stand up and turn around and look at the board where it says they had only won one division in 1995 or uh and then they hadn't you know won a playoff game since 1991 and that was kind of the goal for them this year was to get those things done but at the same time it's like i don't think you should compare uh current teams to past teams because what could they have done like uh you know greg joseph wasn't on the team when gary anderson missed that kick like uh and by the way you know your your article

that you you put out today on how i met your mother that's that's really awesome i'm actually re-watching that whole show right now and i just saw that episode um but yeah i don't i don't you know jared golf got asked a bunch about that all season long. And I think at one point he just kind of got frustrated about it and just almost kind of snipped at everybody. Like, you guys can ask me about this all you want, but I'm going to give you the same answer every single time. We don't care.

And they didn't. And they were able to go and you know beat all those things and and get that division title and win that playoff game and so yeah i just don't think it matters uh you know maybe for a kicker i don't know like if i were the bills kicker uh you know obviously i'm thinking about it i'm thinking about those those misses back in the day and and one of the one in the Super Bowl. I can't remember the kicker's name. But, yeah, I don't know.

I don't think it really affects anything. That would be Scott Norwood. Scott Norwood. My first memory that sticks with me of watching sports, period, was watching the Super Bowl with my family and watching Scott Norwood miss wide to right. So thanks for bringing that up. But, no, seriously, I do. I think I think that it's relevant in a way because all logic does tell you how would that make a difference?

Like what would matter from Scott Norwood missing to? I don't know who their kicker is now, but the Bills kicker that missed last year. How would that seep into his, I don't know, psychology. But I also think that it becomes so loud that it does end up in your brain somewhere. Just for example, I mean, things that you see on the internet, I'm trying to think of something like, I don't know, some phrase or some word that somebody uses on the internet all the time. If you follow people and they're using phrases and words or whatever, at some point, you're, even if you don't even say them, it will come into your mind, that phrase or that joke or

that tweet. And if every bit of media, so now we've just admitted by the way, that athletes read everything they always did, but they would, Oh, I don't read the newspaper, which actually had to pick it up. Now they all have social media. They know that the Buffalo media, the Minnesota media, the Detroit media, they know that all the fans are saying this too. They follow the fans. They look at their mentions. They see all that stuff out there. And I don't think it necessarily has to be a bad thing for a team. We saw this with the Timberwolves where they did the same thing. They kind of wore it on their chest.

And instead of saying, hey, come on, that's the past. Don't talk about it. They leaned into it. They said, hey, teams of the past couldn't do this. We can use it as a motivating factor. I don't know if it gets into a kicker's head when he's lining up a game winning 50 yarder. Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't. I don't know if it gets into a kicker's head when he's lining up a game winning 50 yarder. Maybe it does.

Maybe it doesn't. Or to a team that always gets to the NFC championship and fails. If the Vikings had three Super Bowls, would they have beaten Philadelphia in 2017? I don't know. Or does the Josh Reynolds catch the ball if the Lions had a Super Bowl already? Probably not, right? I mean, it probably doesn't turn out to be different. But I do think that it exists within the psychology of an entire team. And I am always fascinated by how teams and players approach

having this history presented to them all the time. Yeah, I think it's fair, but I think it's just one of those things that fans care about way more than and media you know i think i care about it more than anybody on the team does you know and i think same thing with you i think you care about the vikings situation more than anybody on the vikings team but it is worth bringing up to to a point um you know i don't think it's something that we need to... We don't need to talk to today's Lions about the 0-16 Lions.

It doesn't matter. It just does not matter. None of those guys were even in the league at the time. Some of them were not even in high school. It doesn't matter. So yeah, I just don't think it really affects much. And when you start letting it affect you, that's when it can be bad. Oh, yeah.

No, I agree. But I also think it's something that the team has to psychologically deal with, the fact that it's going to be out there all the time. And now that was last year. But now that they've proven that they can win, I don't think it's there anymore. I don't think it's a discussion as much with Detroit. It was, hey, this is a thing. I don't think it's a discussion as much with Detroit. It was, Hey, this is a thing it's happening. It's whatever, but now it's,

well, the expectations are super high and we don't have to worry about what happened 15 years ago to the Detroit lions. So it's probably a different, even mental thing for them, as opposed to being this magical team that sort of, you know, rose up through the ranks or whatever.

And now it's, ah, once you get there, now you have to win. It actually becomes less fun. Do you agree with that? That it becomes less fun for everyone. When you,

when you're surprised, you're like, wow, I never saw this coming. We dealt with this in 17 and 18 where 17 case Keenum's doing this. This is crazy. But then, all right, Kirk's here here they paid him every they cut the kicker after he missed a couple field goals because the pressure was so much on

everybody and the fans feel it the city feels it like we gotta win or this is going to be a huge disappointment uh this is the first time you've covered something like that in Detroit. Well, I will say that there's definitely been somewhat of a goalpost shift. Now it's like, okay, well, you finally done all that. Now you have to prove that it wasn't a fluke. Like now you have to go do it again. And you have to do more now because now you have to get to the Super Bowl. And I think if I, I mean, I just can't imagine what it's going to be like if they don't make it to the

Super Bowl. I think there's going to be some serious devastation from the fans. And, you know, I think maybe the media will kind of come out. Some people will and will say stuff like, you know, well, see, I told you they were just, you know, that was just a magical year. They could they couldn't make it back. But so, yeah, I mean, I think there's way more pressure on them now because now it, now it's you have to win everything and it's not just, Hey, let's just try to win a playoff game this year. It's go do everything.

So yeah, I, yeah, there's definitely been a little bit of a goalpost shift, but yeah, pressure's there. Yeah. We can't enjoy anything. Like that's just how the world works. You just are not allowed to enjoy anything. As soon as you have a little bit of success, then if you don't have massive success and win a championship, then you're a loser.

But that is sports. A couple of random questions just about the team in general. Is Aaron Glenn any good at his job? Because I'm going to tell you the truth. I don't really think so. The games that I've watched, Nick Mullins put up 400 yards and almost beat their defense. I know there's some new players. I know the roster is better, but it's a little bit of a, it's a, it's a vibe thing. Here's the vibe. I have watched

Vikings quarterbacks play against this man's defense for several years. They never look shook up. They never look confused, frustrated, or even post-snap looking around. Oh, what's going to happen? It's like, oh, I know where to throw the ball. And if Aiden Hutchinson sacks the quarterback, then you're good. And there's a couple other good players on this team. And I know they've added talent. But is the defensive coordinator good enough to take this talent and make the defense to

a level where you can actually compete for a Super Bowl if you have a top five offense? Yes, I do think that he is good at his job. And here's a couple of reasons as to why. 2022, Lions were horrible at stopping the run. They were getting ran all over. They lost this game against Carolina that really could have been the game that got them into the playoffs, but they got ran all over. And they didn't really go out and improve too much in terms of free agency signings or even draft picks. It seemed like they didn't do anything to stop the run in terms of off-season acquisitions before the 2023 season and i complained about it a lot uh and then somehow they're the second best run stopping team in the league like i i think that you can't do that without having a good coach like you you need you need a good coach for that and you know and other

things like you know the lions had really a hard time getting to the quarterback last year for much of the season. Then down the stretch, they started working in different things. They were doing safety blitzes. They were playing a little bit more man. They were starting to get sacks. They had the most sacks in the playoffs. They had the most sacks from week 16 to the end of the year. They were – or not 16 16 earlier than that but you

know what i'm saying uh they they started to really improve their defense now with that said i do think that aaron glenn would probably be a better head coach than he is a defensive coordinator because he's a man is a leader like he is a leader of men he's much like dan campbell in the sense that the room shuts up and they listen to everything that he says, and everybody trusts him and loves him. And the NFLPA did this thing where they went around and surveyed all the teams,

and he was the most well-liked coordinator in the entire NFL by a large margin. And for reasons like that, I think that he could totally be a head coach and he'd be really great at it. This year is going to tell us a lot. They've got a whole brand-new secondary. Everything is new. All the safeties are going to be different.

Brian Branch is probably going to move back to safety, and then they'll have a new slot corner, a new corner one, corner two. They only have two or three returning guys, and those guys are all practice squad guys. So it's going to be really telling if he's able to continue to stop the run and then find a way to stop the pass, then that will really determine if he is that great of a defensive coordinator or if he's just kind of been in the right place at the right time

in some of these things. I think that's a very fair breakdown because the Jimmy's and Joe's, so to speak, versus the X's and O's have not been very good on that side. And what I do know from watching Mike Zimmer's defenses collapse after 2019 is if you don't have corners, then you are screwed. There's just no, you can have average corners and you'll be fine. But if you don't have corners, then you are screwed. There's just no, you can have average corners and you'll be fine. But if you have bad corners and they're getting beat all the time, there is nothing anyone can do about that.

And you saw that at the end of the year when Byron Murphy Jr. went down and they had to face Detroit. It was just a nightmare. They couldn't cover anybody. And even the amount of pressure you create doesn't help that much. If still six out of 10 plays, you're finding open receivers because your secondary is bad. So the improvements,

the Carlton Davis type of acquisition, the Terry and Arnold draft pick, these things could make a huge difference immediately in that defense. So I think that you're being totally fair to say, let's give it more time when he has some more players to work with. I just haven't felt like there's a lot of unique things that I see. Whereas after covering Brian Flores last year and seeing all the buttons that he tried to push and all the ways he maximized his players, I went, okay, that position really does that defensive coordinator position really does have a big impact on where your team ranks defensively overall unless you have just awful players which i think that detroit has had a pretty good argument for having well below average defensive players uh i want a one jared goff

question then i'll ask you a big detroit lions question um all. So I was thinking about how do I frame Jared Goff and how I feel about Jared Goff? I have defended him on this here program more than any podcast in the nation that is not Detroit. I promise you, I have seen this guy shred the Vikings in so many different ways when he doesn't get drafted by everybody's quarterback rankings in the top 10 and they put them 14th or something. I like, I don't understand what you guys are seeing that I'm seeing differently. My question is because they're, they're often, this is the fourth time this year that Jared Goff has run a top five offense. Kirk cousins has zero times run top five offenses. What's the quarterback's job. Okay. Is he just boring? Is that what it

really is? Because I see lots of quarterbacks get ranked ahead of him, get a lot more praise ahead of him. And I am not saying he's Dan Marino. I'm not saying he's Patrick Mahomes, but if we're going to talk about the thing that correlates most to success in the NFL, it's offensive production period, right? That is the most correlation. All the teams that correlates most to success in the NFL it's offensive production period right that is the most correlation all the teams that go to the Super Bowl are the best offenses that's through even the history of the game he does that all the time and his receiver drops a ball so apparently you know he's not a winner enough in the playoffs but he went to a Super Bowl before with the Rams what would you like if he scrambled would people talk about him as like a top three quarterback i just is he just not exciting and

his personality is not exciting you can't put him on a graphic on tv and yell about him all that much and i think that hurts jared goff because the production otherwise is there there's the jared goff rant your reaction okay well no i'm i'm totally with you i i have been fighting the battle that jared goff is an elite quarterback like he's an elite quarterback that's that's what that's my feeling about him i i know that look i'm gonna get into the weeds a little bit here i i think it's like a phenomenon and I think a lot of quarterbacks go through this. I think people saw that 2020 season, which was really bad. It was really bad for him and the Rams. And it was bad enough to where he got traded.

And they look at him, they look at it like, okay, well, he was so bad that they had to get rid of him. And people got so locked into that opinion and that thought process on Jared Goff that they will never let it go like anytime that I and I I don't want to take shots at anybody here but anytime I listen to like the ringer or the athletic and you know something like that anytime that Jared Goff gets brought up on any of these shows they always have to mention well he tends to do this and he tends to do that at some point in time, but he never actually, he never regresses. They keep saying that he's going to. They keep saying, well, there was that 2020 season where he all of a sudden was really bad and he got benched for

John Wolford. It's never happened. It hasn't happened to Detroit. He's been nothing but good. He's gotten better every single year. He's controlled the turnovers to a large margin. I think he has one of the fewest turnovers of any quarterback in the league over the last three seasons. And the team is winning. He's clearly playing quite well. He's passing quite well. I don't care if he doesn't throw 70-yard bombs.

I don't care. I don't care if he doesn't do 70 yard bombs i don't care i don't care if he doesn't do that thing that mahomes does where he's falling down and throws the thing on you know like oh cool that's on madden whatever i don't care i don't care that he doesn't scramble for 25 yards does he get the pass out is it accurate is it is he helping the team win he's doing all those things he's a great leader. He's an elite quarterback. And if we were talking about Jared Goff in 1995, everybody would say,

yeah, he's one of the best in the league. But this is a highlight-driven world these days and a fantasy-driven world. And by the way, he's actually pretty good in fantasy. I had him last year and I went to the Super Bowl. So he's not Lamar Jackson. He's not Patrick Mahomes. He's not some of the guys that are being fed to you constantly on a daily basis that these are the elite quarterbacks and there are no other guys that could be elite because these are the ones that we're telling you are elite. And yeah, I could go on about this all day. I think he's one of the best quarterbacks in the league.

And I think he's also one of just the best stories in the league. I mean, the Rams gave up on this guy. He was supposed to be a bridge quarterback. And here he is now. He's one of the highest paid guys in the league. And his stadium's chanting his name. He's helping the Lions do something that Matthew Stafford never could do or any quarterback really couldn't do for a long time.

So, yeah. I have a lot of different theories about this as well. The boring theory is definitely one of it. But you brought up a great point about negative plays that Marty Schottenheimer had this theory. And I was just talking to Rich Gannon the other day. So it's on my mind about if you turn the ball over way less than the other team, then you will win. And that really worked for the nineties chiefs. And it really worked in Marty Schottenheimer's career, but we don't focus a lot on that. This was an early Tom Brady career thing where he

would just not turn the ball over and not take a lot of sacks. And they would win a lot of games just on the fact that you're not doing stupid things that hurt your expected points added. If even, if you're looking at it from a super analytical perspective, the worst thing you can do is what take a sack, get picked off, get strip sack. It just doesn't happen a whole lot to Jared Goff. The other thing about the 2020 season is if you look at Goff's career, you can figure out what his kryptonite is and what he needs to succeed. And it's those fat guys in front of him because in 2020, they lost some linemen. They had some linemen get hurt. And suddenly Jared Goff, who is very bad under pressure historically, the more pressure he gets, the less he has answers for it. That also leads to a lack of

exciting plays, by the way, like the Josh Allen exciting play is someone goes to hit him. He throws the guy over his back, like a wrestling move and then throws it 50 yards down the field. You will never see that from golf. And that is one of the reasons that it's harder to win with him and why I would not put him at with Josh Allen and why I would not put him with Patrick Mahomes on that level, because there is a kryptonite there is an answer if you can pressure him which is why I think Detroit has done such a great job here at building this team it's just all sorts of meat on on the front there they built almost the perfect team for him plus Amon Ross St. Brown and just one more thing before everyone gets disgusted of me talking

about another team's quarterback and why he's good uh but when you make the right play the right read delivered on time over and over and over and over again these plays work the the football plays they work they get people open and you're never going to make much of a highlight reel by just doing the right thing over and over and over and over and over again but that's what he does and that's sort of where the boring theory comes in i don't notice when guys don't get sacked i don't notice when the guy throws a nine yard basic route to the tight end and it gets you a first down on third and eight it's like okay it's just a short little pass or whatever. But it's hard to beat when the opposing quarterback is just on time, in rhythm, throwing to the right place over and over and over again.

And it's like, it's Drew Brees-ish without quite the precision of Drew Brees. That might be how I would look at it. Sure. My only counterpoint on the Josh Allen thing would be, like, yeah, he does some really incredible things but he also and over the last three years has turned the ball over 59 times which is the second most of any quarterback like it's cool when you could do and stafford was like this too like it's cool when you could do some cool things but dude you just threw you just threw like a you know you just threw a pick like

like wow you got out of that you threw the ball you got it off but you also threw an interception and it's cool you know it's easy to look past some of those things when they do something really amazing that works but yeah uh you know not saying that josh allen is a great quarterback because he is he's definitely one of the best elite quarterback for sure uh but there is a great quarterback because he is he's definitely one of the best elite quarterback for sure uh but there is a downside but yeah you know i and one other point you know brahman ross a brown was the fourth round pick and he's only been with golf and he golf has made him better and golf made khalif raymond uh more than just a guy who was getting passed around by the league and josh reynolds got released by the titans and then j Goff made him a guy who just got paid by the Broncos. So like he makes players better.

He I can't say enough good things about Jared Goff. And if you make him scramble, he will throw the worst pass ever. Just so just so I'm giving my Vikings audience the the full truth on my Jared Goff appreciation. OK, last thing for you. And by the way, all this stuff, apply it to J.J. McCarthy when we talk about him where it's not going to be as maybe flashy and what they want from him and why they're working so hard on the footwork and everything else is to be like this, only scramble from time to time.

Be Jared Goff and run from time to time. I do got to quickly say that jj mccarthy he's no good like you guys you guys you guys failed on that one oh all right the michigan state yeah that's a horrible pick for audio listeners holding up the michigan state hat i i was uh i was actually that that was going to be the final question, is you being there, you having watched J.J. McCarthy's career, despite your admitted bias now with the Michigan State thing, what do you think? What do you think of J.J. McCarthy in the Lions division for the foreseeable future? Well, you know, I just got to see what he's like as a quarterback because, you know, that was kind of the big thing, you know, knocking just got to see what he's like as a quarterback because, you know, that was kind of the big thing, you know,

knocking him before the draft was that they didn't really use him that much, you know, throwing the ball. Like he did obviously through the ball, but they were much more guarded and much more protected, much more of a run first team. And I would like to see what he looks like when he's out there just being a quarterback, unloading it, letting it go. I think that he'll be fine i i think he's he's a smart kid and and he's got great athleticism and uh and i think he'll be able to pick things up you know i i look at the vikings as a team that i think that you guys should be on a rebuild but i don't know if

anybody i don't know if quacey thinks that like you know i i obviously justin jefferson you gotta re-sign that guy but i wouldn't i don't know if i'd hamstring myself with t.j hawkinson and some of the other guys you know i i would just go ahead and long into this rebuild and get started over again because i i just feel like at this point they're they're they're at the bottom of the NFC North, at least this year. They could be much better as the years go by, but they're so young and they just lost to Neil Hunter and DJ Wanham and they lost a bunch of players last year too, but they

still came close. Some things went some other ways. Maybe Kirk Cous cousin stays healthy. Maybe they make the playoffs like last year. So that's just where I'm at on them. I think JJ McCarthy was a good pick for them. But I would like to see him play. And I would like to see,

you know, what their plans are for him and, and see what the Vikings are going to do long-term. It's all about the cap space for next year. I think that's where their plan to fill in the rest of the roster is. Before we go, you got any random questions for me? I asked you a lot of random questions. Got any random Viking questions?

I'm here. Oh, random Viking questions. Oh, whatever. Random anything. Anything football. What was your, I don't know if you were covering the vikings at this time but it was like one of the greatest moments in lions history it was golden tate overtime does like a spin kick on i can't even remember who it was in the end zone but i

i don't know if you were there for that one or what that was like seeing it in person, but on TV, that was one of the funnest things ever. You are talking about 2016. When I did a ranking of all the games, that was my first year covering the team. I did a ranking of all the games that I've covered. Obviously, the Minneapolis Miracle was number one. I believe as far as entertainment value, that was number two because that game was absolutely bananas. The Vikings mismanaged the clock, handed off to Rhett Ellison, their backup tight end to score at the goal line before Stafford ripped the pass to.

I can't remember the receiver I'm blanking on. It was like a number three or four wide receiver. receiver and then then matt prater kicked the ball harder and farther than any person i've ever seen in my entire life to make a 60 yarder to tie the game and then comes the it was harrison smith was coming over at the last second he was trying to just do a hot dogging spin into the end zone smith almost got there and if he had knocked the ball loose and it went out of the back of the end zone it would have been on some blunder reel and NFL films for all time, silly mistakes of trying to jump into the end zone. But that game was insane. Just went back and forth and back and forth with all sorts of crazy things happening. Definitely, definitely one of my favorites. Yeah. You know,

I got to ask about the Minneapolis miracle too, because I watched that on TV, just like everybody else did. And, you know, I, look, I cover the Lions. I've been a Lions fan my entire life. I, you know, I care. I try to be professional and I try to be impartial and all this and that. But in that moment, it was like, like, man, I wish that would have happened to us, you know, but it was just unbelievable to see that happen. And with Case Keenum and like, I kept telling everybody all year, like, it's Case Keenum. At some point, it just has to go wrong, right?

Like, it just has to. And then, you know, just really bad coverage by the Saints and just an unbelievable moment. Like, what was the arena like that night? Well, I mean mean when it happened i don't know that it will ever reach that sound level ever again and i more than anything in the moment i'm just trying to figure out what just happened what just happened because it's it's sheer madness after he goes into the end zone. He throws the helmet and all the players are running off the bench and they're carrying him into the tunnel.

And they still have to kick the extra point because they hadn't changed that rule. That's why they changed the rule. So the game's not over and the refs are still out there and we're going, is the game over? Did they win? Is there a penalty? Is there something happening? But the funny story from my perspective of that was when New Orleans kicked the field goal, because for some reason they ran at Linval Joseph, as opposed to having Drew Brees throw the ball on third and short. I don't know why, because he was the best player in the league at that position that year, but they kicked the field goal. And I deleted most of the things that I had written and started writing case Keenum leads miracle comeback or whatever. And I started writing like just line after line about they won, they're moving on, they whatever, because my thought was

if they lose zero people are reading my article. So it doesn't matter when it comes out. I'll, I'll delete it and rewrite it later on that night. Who cares? So as I'm writing this, I'm looking up and watching the ball. And it's one of those things that in my brain is still slow motion because I always look at the defense first. I kind of look at how they're positioned. And I remember thinking, why don't they have more people back as he dropped back i'm looking downfield to see where the ball might go and i'm just think like this is like a regular defense where where is everybody because you think that they would be playing like a prevent there but they were worried about the field goal i think there was a possibility if they could get to you know the 45 or something

they might have a shot and when i'm seeing it like you see the guy coming you see the ball and you're looking and you're going he's going to catch this he's going to make a play and then obviously uh was it marcus williams goes flying into the stands the other part is that's been fun after it is everybody's reaction that you see on the sideline there's a lot of people yelling get out of bounds because they think that, they're going to need a field goal. There's nothing that could ever repeat it. It was, and not only that, but the second year of us bank stadium, the fact that it's a backup quarterback, it just had all those things that came together in such a crazy way to have it happen. So there's nothing like it would suggest as a reporter, because you'll, you'll definitely never forget

it. So maybe you'll have one this year, like this yeah we'll see i mean i know uh at covering that rams game uh when almonra saint brown caught that caught the ball and got kneeled for the first time and that everybody because it was weird because after he caught the ball it was right after the two minute warning and people didn't quite like it just didn't click at the moment like hey they just won this game and then he kneeled for the first time and that was an eruption that i i mean it was so loud you couldn't hear yourself think but i do have one more thing for you and i don't want to hold you too long uh even though i'm on your podcast right yeah i was gonna say i'm usually the one that apologizes to guests for keeping them too long

go ahead uh and i'd be remiss if i didn't ask because this is sort of like my gimmick. What are your thoughts on quarterback wins and losses as a stat? Yeah, that's a very Matt Stafford Detroit question, isn't it? Because Stafford struggled through all those years to win games, and that was his thing. Like any stat, if you use it in the correct way, in the way that it tells us the story, if you read the story correctly, I think that it can be useful. And I will, this is two different perspectives of two different people who have covered different teams in different circumstances, but Kirk Cousins career

record is around 500. And what I saw over six years was 500 quarterback play. That's over a large sample. That's who he was. And he had a lot of opportunities with teams that were good or flawed and teams that weren't. So the way that I've started to think about it over the years with this quarterback wins thing is that if we think about what a quarterback can mean to an average team and how many more wins will you have if that quarterback is put under average circumstances versus great versus terrible. So Patrick Mahomes team last year is probably an average team, little above average, but it's not, it's certainly not a super bowl team. They win the super bowl because he's the greatest quarterback of the generation. Manning did that. Brady probably did that somewhere along the way, had great coaching, but if you're truly a goat, you could take an average team or a little above average and make

them better. If you're on the next level, you probably need like Jared Goff. If you have greatness around you, you can get to the Superbowl. If you're presented with an average team and you can only make them an average team, that's kind of who you are as a quarterback. And so each individual situation year, each quarterback's record has to be taken into account. It's like just what did Deshaun Kaiser go? Oh, in 12 as a quarterback or something. No one thinks Deshaun Kaiser is good. John Elway probably won 70% of his games. That tells the story pretty accurately. In between there is where you really have to work at it.

I think the goats are all going to win all the games and the worst are all going to lose all the games. But if you're telling me about a 500 quarterback like Stafford or like cousins over their career, we need to have a lot deeper conversation about what happened there for them to be 500. That's how, that's how I look at it. Yeah. I mean, I think the big thing that you really have to take into effect is, well, there's multiple things, the the first one is it's a three-phase game you know quarterback only plays on one of the phases he doesn't play defense he he can't control field position on special teams like if a punter shanks the ball and and the team loses because of

that like you know you can't really blame that on the quarterback if the defense allows 55 points you can't blame the quarterback for not scoring 56. I mean, I just think that I look at situations where I think it's almost a dangerous thing for some quarterbacks. And I always bring up Sam Darnold. I don't know why I'd use this as an example. But at this point, we know what Sam Darnold is. He's OK. point we know what sam darnold is like he's a you know he's okay he's a he's a backup quarterback and uh not to shoot on you know on your guys's potential starting quarterback week one uh but when he was with the new york jets he was taken very highly he looked good early on

and then they did nothing to help him at any point in time and then when it came time to to kind of change things they let the coach go they let coordinators go and then they let him go it was like what if you would have given him a solid offensive line a good some good receivers like a quarterback can't win alone they just can't do it i i mean i think if you put patrick mahomes on the Carolina Panthers, they're not going to the playoffs just because Patrick's good. He needs a team. He needs somebody to catch that ball he's throwing.

You know what I mean? He needs somebody to block for him so he can do some of the incredible things that he does. I just don't think one player wins it all by themselves. Plus, I've seen games like the Jags won with Blake Bortles a few years back. But he threw like 100 yards and didn't even score a touchdown in that game. And he got the win for it. And it was how Blake Bortles led the Jags to a playoff win.

That just doesn't make sense to me. Yeah, I mean, I think with any stat uh you have to dive into it deeper it's like jared goff's 2021 statistics are not very good for the box score but obviously what he was working with and that's what i mean about the extremes where so with carolina i do think last year's carolina team is in the playoffs with patrick mahomes i think he's just that much better uh but that's the extreme of that, where you could even take a horrible team and he probably gets them to like nine wins. We saw this from Andrew Luck,

who had some pretty horrible teams in his career and he was able to elevate them just by being a great quarterback. There's no position that's more valuable or more important to your winning, but we have to look at the track. So I think of it, the quarterback wins thing as a, what type of, if you were talking about a race,

do you have a straight a hundred yard dash or do you have steeples and alligators? And I don't know what a steeple is, but you know what I mean? Are there moats that you have to jump over? Are there, but if, if a great quarterback was, if Sam Darnold was a great quarterback, he doesn't win two games in a season. It's just not possible for someone who is a great quarterback to have that much struggle, unless it was so wild, maybe like the tanking Detroit lions. So I guess that's my point is that we could see these, these fluctuations from year to year, and each one needs its own evaluation of it. And one quote that sticks in my mind was from Jay Gruden. And this was what I was against the cousin signing when it happened for this reason,

that Jay Gruden, when they won seven games in 2017, he said, ruthlesslylessly our record is a reflection of our quarterback play meaning Kirk Cousins and my thought was yes there are a lot of situations where your your record is reflective of your quarterback play whether that was entirely his fault or not I don't know but if you have great quarterback play you're going to win a lot of games. And if you don't, you're not. So you see what I'm saying there. It's like that stuck with me that a seven win team with Kirk Cousins is a seven win team, a seven win team with someone slightly better with Phillip Rivers might be a 10 win team with someone better than Phillip Rivers might be an 11 or 12 win team. And I think it's, it's fair to kind of look at why you won or lost because if if we just look at the stats and we go well john kitna threw for 4 000 yards he must have had a great year

no they were 3 and 13 well it couldn't have been that great if they were 3 and 13 so it's a it's a complicated issue but i i like talking about it yeah yeah i mean the only other thing i would say is you know case keenum got you guys to the nfc championship game and and he is not a good quarterback uh but he had a really really great team so i i think i think it needs you know i think that that's why you keep seeing the same teams winning over and over again because they're the only ones that are building a good team while everybody else is just going oh well that quarterback, that quarterback doesn't move, doesn't work. So let's move on and we'll try the next one. I just think I do. I do believe that quarterback talent has gone down in the last few years,

but I also believe that maybe maybe we're just not giving everybody enough time because they're not putting up wins immediately. No, I think that's absolutely true. And you make a fair point about Sam Darnold. That's the point that everybody's making here is if Sam Darnold had Kevin O'Connell, Justin Jefferson, Jordan Addison, and TJ Hawkinson and Christian Derrissaw, how does he look with the New York Jets? He's probably not a Minnesota bike. He's probably still there. And so there's something to be said for that. It's like, if you look at wins and losses for a quarterback and you want all the answers to be given to you there, you're definitely not going to find them. But I, I think it asks a lot of interesting questions though. So I don't want

it to be taken away. I want to ask those questions. Like why, why didn't Matthew Stafford win more in Detroit is a great question. If you're not you who's had to answer it your whole life. But for me, it's a great question. Anyway, this is super fun. Mike, you're very good at answering random questions that I gave you zero prep on whatsoever. So I appreciate it. It's A to Z, Mike on Twitter. Is that what it is? A to Z underscore Peyton. Oh, Peyton. P-A-Y-T-O-N. So I really appreciate i really appreciate it your great follow on twitter you do good work covering the detroit lions and we'll do it again man they play twice it's not for a while but we'll do it again sounds good to me