Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Looking back at Mike Hughes, Laquon Treadwell and other Vikings picks that didn't make it

Episode Date: July 1, 2021

Matthew Coller and Sam Ekstrom continue What Coulda Been Week by looking back at the Vikings' draft picks that didn't have success and what the butterfly effects would have been had players like Mike Hughes, Laquon Treadwell, Pat Elflein and even Christian Ponder turned into good NFL players. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Whether you own a bustling hair salon or a hot new bakery, you need business insurance that can keep up with your evolving needs. With flexible coverage options from TD Insurance, you only pay for what you need. TD. Ready for you. Hello, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. As we continue What Could Have Been Week, this will be the What Could Have Been Week draft edition. Matthew Collar along with Sam Ekstrom here. Now, first, before we get into this, Sam, last week you went to your high school reunion, and it did not turn out very well for you because you kind of didn't run into anyone that you wanted to see.

But it came into my head before we get into these draft picks that didn't work out that I want to ask you, if there was a reunion of players that we covered for the Vikings that have since left and everybody came back and got back together who would be the person that you wouldn't want to see I love the question because there are plenty of guys I would like to see you know I'd like to hang out with Terrence Newman again and get Jared McKinnon and Latavius Murray back in the mix those guys were. Who wouldn't I want to see? Andrew Sandejo probably is the captain of that club. You know, Andrew, nice player for the team. Wasn't really interested in reporters at all. And I wouldn't call him hostile. I would just call him

like so disinterested in what we did that. Yeah. Didn't make any friends along the way. You know, what's funny is I ended on such a good note with Anderson day. How did I, yeah, I really did.

The last time I interviewed him was in new Orleans. The, the entire locker room cleared out. I waited like an hour and for him to be like the last guy in there because he had disappeared somewhere. I think he was sick playing in that game too in New Orleans. Remember he had to play slot corner. So I waited and waited and waited. Everyone was gone except for me and Andrew Sodejo. And I had a really good chat with him just about playing nickel corner in that game, playing special teams. I didn't realize he

had the flu also that week and barely could really practice. So that was kind of a heroic performance from Anderson Dayhoe in that game. And he gave a really good post-game interview for somebody who was incredibly exhausted. And the fact that I was the only one who got it and he was actually really nice during it. I thought like, oh, I guess you didn't enjoy being around the media this entire time, but you are certainly capable of this. I think the guy for me would be T.J. Clemmings, not because I ever had a problem with T.J. Clemmings. He seemed like a very fine human being. It was just that we hammered him so much and it was deserved everything anybody ever said it was deserved he played as poorly as any offensive lineman has played in the last decade

but we just drilled him over and over and over again and you know it's like the kid you bullied in high school you don't want to have to face them and and say, oh, man, I am so sorry for all of those things. You just don't want that. Right. But in this case, I'm not sorry. Like it was always the truth. It's just awkward. It's the same with Jaleel Johnson. If he were to come back, Jaleel Johnson, fine human being, always decent to talk with. But he just couldn't do the job. And I don't know what else I was supposed to do other than to say, this man can't do his job. And so if he came back for the reunion, be like, hey man, that's the game. Sorry. Like this is uncomfortable, but we had to say what we had to say. Totally agree on Latavius Murray and Jarek McKinnon, two of the great characters. So I had to get that out of

the way because I feel bad that you drove five hours to go to your high school reunion and you got very little out of it. You weren't able to show people your success as number two on Purple Insider. Right. I got a lot of people. And for those that don't know, I'm from southeastern South Dakota. And, you know, there's that don't know, I'm from, uh, Southeastern South Dakota and, you know, there's some, some rural minded folks around there. And I got a lot of, uh, stereotypical, wow. Like, are you, are you okay living in Minneapolis? Like, are there fires every night? And I had to give a lot of, you know, kind of very, I, I had to appease a lot of people with,

yep. Yeah. It's okay. We're not, it's not like, you know, burning down to the ground. Everything's all right. There had to be part of you that wanted to tell them like, Oh my God. Yeah. It's just, it's insane. I bought a machete. Uh, so yeah. It's, it's guerrilla warfare out here. That doesn't surprise me. And I have gotten that from other people that I know as well. Like, are you guys okay up there? Like, yeah, I think so. Is something happening? Anyway, so let's get to the, what could have been week. It's been really fun on the website. If you haven't seen the articles, purple insider.substack.com, you wrote about the playmakers. I wrote about the quarterbacks. I'm also in the process of writing about the draft picks, but I think that you

address this a bit in your playmakers article, and you can always go through the draft history and say, well, should have drafted this guy should have drafted that guy. That's the draft for you though, right? There are some that we can question that were bad decisions at the time, Derek Alexander versus not taking Warren Sapp when Warren Sapp was a God in college. That one you could have foreseen being a mistake, but otherwise, you know, there are a lot of draft picks that, you know, for every team they can go, oh man, this guy was the next pick and we didn't take them. So what I want to talk about is what would have happened had some of these picks that didn't work out ended up working out.

And I think we should just kind of go in reverse order as far back as we can. Let me start with this. Does Garrett Bradbury yet belong in this conversation or not? Because I've sort of haggled over whether to include him in the conversation. I'm going to say, I don't think he should be yet. Like the book is not written. Um, all the other guys we're going to talk about the book is written on them, but Garrett Bradbury, should we talk about what would have happened had he worked out or are we not there yet? Yeah, I don't think we're there yet. I think next year we would be there if he has another poor season. And even if he has like a good season,

he might still end up on the list. He just kind of delays it for another year because two seasons where he's been part of a pretty significant pass blocking problem. And the team really gave him a lot. I mean, what we've talked about the Vikings slow playing rookies. Well, he was one of the guys that they didn't. I mean, they ordained him as the starter week one, and I believe his first game he got a zero pass-blocking rating. Now, granted, they didn't pass much in that game, but that was unfortunately a doppelganger of things to come for him.

The pass-blocking has not been good. It's been bottom 10% of the league for starting centers it's been pretty bad um so i think he is on the verge of being in the conversation but two years in i'm not willing to go there yet yeah same here and the data suggests that interior offensive linemen need at least two years to be sure of who they're going to be still the jump he would have to make would be significant for that one to be worth where he was picked but i think there's a big difference between worth where you were picked and while you blew up and so we're going to focus on the while you blew up guys and so the first place we have to talk is uh with mike hughes he's traded to the

kansas city chiefs who knows what's even left of him if he'll be able to do anything for them. I would assume the Vikings, knowing his medical situation, made that decision like this is over. There's no salvaging this because Mike Zimmer has talked fondly about Mike Hughes's talent. And you would think if they believed he could ever bounce back that they would have run that one all the way to the end. But instead, they're essentially choosing to keep someone like Harrison Hand over Mike Hughes. If Mike Hughes had worked out, one place to begin with this is the Vikings would have

been justified in taking Mike Hughes. Now, there's always the Lamar Jackson conversation. We discussed that the other day. We don't have to go back through that. But there was a lot of discussion at the time of why are you taking another corner when it's an all-in type of situation? There are other positions that you need much more than corner, namely offensive line at that time.

And Mike Zimmer did not like that at all. And after the first game, when Mike Hughes had a pick six, he snarked at us and said, see, guess we drafted a pretty good player, huh? All you guys didn't want us to draft him, which was kind of a mischaracterization of what the argument was. But that's kind of the place that my mind goes is that pick got debated more than most, probably number 30 overall picks get. And ultimately it ends up not really working out in their favor. Well, ironically you drafted Mike Hughes for the future. I mean, he was the fourth guy on a team that had Waynes, Rhodes, and Alexander. And initially they had Newman. So Hughes was the fifth guy, but then Newman retired, became a coach. So Hughes was number four. And maybe his best stretch was his first stretch when they didn't think they would need him.

But I think Alexander was hurt and Hughes had to play, had to pick six in the first game and had some pretty effective moments up until that ACL tear. And I believe his sixth game of that season. And I think that stretch is probably the tantalizing part because it seemed like he had something. I mean, they trusted him to play early and they don't always do that with cornerbacks. They typically, you know, bring them along slowly like they did with Waynes and Alexander. And Hughes seemed to have gained a certain level of trust from Mike Zimmer and even Terrence Newman trusted him and

the staff allowed him to play. So the fact that he got hurt in such a serious way in that first year to sort of set back all that progress is what makes his decline pretty disappointing. That 2018 secondary really could have used Mike Hughes because Xavier Rhodes was starting to show the atrophy, you know, going in and out of the lineup. He was hurt. He was off the field for a series and they really needed Mike Hughes. They were leaning on Holton Hill, you know, quite a bit. And I think Hughes would have been extremely valuable in a declining group. And obviously going forward to, you know, he was a starter to start last season and couldn't couldn't last because of injuries. But he would have helped that secondary

tremendously as well. Right. The difference between what we would have expected from Mike Hughes and say Chris Jones could have been I don't I don't know if I want to go as far as to say two wins, but it might have been one against Dallas. Chris Jones fully electing to not tackle Tony Pollard made a big difference in that game where Dallas barely gets away with a win. And that was one of those turning points to this defense is pretty bad. If Chris Jones is going to be playing 2019 playoffs, probably again are not determined by Mike Hughes not being there. And we mentioned the fact that Anderson Dayhoe had to play nickel corner, but they still won the game that they had an opportunity to win, lost the game to San Francisco where their offense did nothing.

So Mike Hughes probably doesn't make a big difference in that game. But last year, I think that maybe one player doesn't swing you one way or the other. But if Mike Hughes was very good, you might have been able to kind of survive with how Cam Dantzler played and Mike Hughes, you know, maybe do enough in the slot there to just sort of get by, maybe add one more guy or something. Like there would have been a bit of a domino effect where you don't end up with one of the words leagues, worst corners. You don't end up with Chris Boyd playing. And then when we get to now this season, you would have felt, I mean, very good about where your cornerbacks stood. You would have had at least cam Dantzler. Let's just put Jeff Gladney out of the conversation for the moment. You would have felt good about that. Add one more guy. But instead, this is where you have to go out and get Patrick Peterson because and you have to get Brashad Bre no real sure thing on, on, on the secondary. Still, we don't know with Dantzler, what his health situation is going to be. He didn't

practice in mini camp. Uh, Alexander knows the defense. I think he's the most predictable, but you know, Breland has had some ups and downs in his career and you're relying a lot on Patrick Peterson. One stead you'd be relying a lot on Mike Hughes. The other thing about Hughes, though, is, I mean, you mentioned where he flashed some potential. That's one that I don't know rests heavy on Vikings fans as much as some of these other ones we're going to talk about, because you just never really saw it. You saw a couple of games here and there that were good. The Giants game in 2019 was good, but you never really saw from Mike Hughes anything to say wow what could have been with that guy Mike Hughes

didn't have the uh the body type to to tell you that oh he's a the lanky shut down corner archetype you know it was always going to be about his speed, putting him in position to make plays. And he didn't have the long arms or the ball skills, I didn't feel like, where he was going to be a seven interception guy in a season either. I did feel like there were games here and there where he was doing a nice job in a versatile role he was a little bit of an inside outside guy right and it seems like the Vikings have been leaning a little bit toward that and a lot of the guys they pick because they kind of have that quality about them where they like someone that can play nickel and outside because they want to have that flexibility in their cornerbacks um

you know Jeff Gladney was a little bit that way and if Mike Hughes was good um they probably wouldn't have had to draft uh Jeff Glad. They might have, but they also might not have, they could have gone with a safety. They know there were Antoine Winfield was there, Grant Delpit, Xavier McKinney, and Kyle Duggar. Like they could have gotten someone on the back end instead in that first round last year. Oh, that's what makes these so interesting is that there's always a domino effect of when someone doesn't work out because when you draft the guy you're penciling him in to work out and then when he doesn't you have to end up drafting a cornerback in Jeff Gladney and two cornerbacks adding in

Cameron Dantzler and now that Jeff Gladney hasn't worked out at least for this moment you have to bring in Patrick Peterson and spend 10 million dollars there and spend a couple more on Rashad Breeland and a couple and a little bit more on Mackenzie Alexander where if all three of these draft picks work out you are paying very little for potentially very good cornerback play and then you could push that money somewhere else so there's always um if there's like a butterfly effect to every draft pick not working out which is one of the reasons that we're doing this week and this theme uh tell me if you consider pat elf line in this or is the fact that he's a third round pick you sort of just go i don't know whatever with elf line i thought we did see a sign that he could be a very long-term player for this

team in the center for years and years to come in his first year and the fact that he could be a very long-term player for this team in the center for years and years to come in his first year and the fact that he got hurt in the nfc championship game they've never really figured out how to deal with that interior they were forced to draft garrett bradbury they tried moving elf line around but that injury continued to have a ripple effect because they kept trying to play him and then it was bad and then when you go to now you have to let him go and you have to replace him with another draft pick like I think that that one actually has had a pretty big effect on them because after the first 15 weeks of 2017 you would have thought Pat Elfline's going to be here for a long long time yeah you're right about that it doesn't sting because he was a third round pick. Like the Vikings haven't prioritized third

round picks around here for 15 years. Like that's the first pick that Rick Spielman and company have been willing to trade in any kind of deal. So like 2006 didn't have one. 2008 didn't have one 2010 2011 didn't have one either year 2013 didn't have one um 2016 didn't have so you know what i'm saying like they give third round picks away all the time and the ones they've picked haven't really worked out that well except for daniel hunter um but a lot of them have been either like man players or busts you know like cameron dantzler might be one of the better ones but a Alexander Madison is, is all right. Scott Crichton was a bust. Josh Robinson was pretty much a bust and the list kind of goes on Asher Allen, Marcus McCauley. So I don't think the third round pick moniker

is, is that damaging? Like when, when one of those fails for the Vikings, but the fact that he was like a key starter on a really good team and I think was on a pretty good trajectory that year and kind of in the same vein as Hughes, it's that injury. You know, the NFC championship game that year where they were getting killed anyway and Elfline gets hurt, has multiple surgeries. And we'll never know this for sure, but the upper body strength seemed to kind of leave him. I mean, he didn't really have a lot of push that second year. And then the third year, I don't know if he just wasn't capable of like getting it back or if he wasn't comfortable playing guard, but it, that injury set into effect some pretty

negative things for Elf line. And, you know, again, like kind of like Bradbury, his pass blocking grades were not great his first year. So I don't want to make him sound like he was phenomenal, like Elton Jenkins or something as a rookie, but he was pretty good. He was a little better than Bradbury was as a rookie. And I think the team believed that he was going to be the guy. I truly do believe that. Hey, everyone. Summer is here, and you're trying to get out on the golf course.

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You will love it. Follow them at SodaStickCo on Twitter. Go to SodaStick.com for your original Minnesota sports-inspired goods. Code PURPLE code purple insider for free shipping. I think where I would put it on my list is if Elf line does not get hurt, he is absolutely the center in 2018. He's absolutely the center in 2019, 2020, and this upcoming year, because he was popular with the team, with his teammates. He was very well liked. And I think the team liked his kind of mental ability at the center position,

how hard he worked, those types of things that for a rookie to fit in as quick as he did, they thought, as you said, the trajectory was good. And even if he had some struggles that first year in pass protection, which he did, I mean, he got thrown aside a few times like everyone else does by a Keem Hicks, or I remember Gino Atkins really roasting him a couple of times in that Cincinnati game. But that's where we talk about the year one, two, three. If you could get average play in that first year, which I think they got, it usually says very good things about where you're going at a center or guard position. And for him, if he doesn't get that injury, they don't need to spend a first round pick on Garrett Bradbury in 2019. And if you look at the rest of that draft,

that's one where you go, okay, there's a lot of other guys that were picked after him. Who knows if they would have taken them like DK Metcalf, AJ Brown, you have even Andre Diller got hurt last year, but a left tackle that maybe could have, I don't know, developed here. Hard to say, but there was a lot of players that got picked after that were very interesting that the Vikings could have used. And they knew that things were not perfect with Stefan Diggs at that time. You wonder if they would have been looking at receiver instead of center, but center was like this big, glaring need. So that's why it does make my list, but definitely the third round element of it is like a third round pick shouldn't kind

of rip up your franchise, but it kind of did in this case. Let's go on to Laquan Treadwell here. Can you imagine if Laquan Treadwell had been even average, what you would get out of Stefan Diggs, Adam Thielen and Laquan Treadwell. And instead, not only was he not average, but he actively worked against the team for several years. 2017, he was very poor. 2018, he was even worse. He committed terrible penalties. Kirk Cousins targeted him on fourth down a couple of times in big games. He was a net negative draft pick that even if he had sat on the bench, whoever else would have played would have done better than Laquan Treadwell. So the difference between him and average was so significant that I can't imagine how good these passing

games would have been had he turned out to be just even okay. Yeah, I got a stat from my Playmakers article on the website where I figured out that Laquan Treadwell is one of only 25 receivers in the Super Bowl era that were drafted in the first round who had 750 or fewer yards in their career. And he might have what, you know, he might have some more yards in the future beyond this year, and that would maybe nullify the stat. But as of today, that's pretty bad when your career is five years long and the Vikings gave him chances. Like it wasn't like they kind of just gave up on him like they did with Cordero Patterson and just took him out of the lineup. He got 500 snaps in 2017 and then an additional 543 snaps in 2018. So 2017 wasn't enough. They went back to the well in 2018. They gave him over a thousand snaps over

two seasons. And that's why his yards per route run was so atrocious because he was on the field a lot. And I guess I wonder, is Adam Thielen Adam Thielen? Like if Laquan Treadwell is actually good. Because this offense, I guess they would have probably used more three receivers in 2018. But would Thielen have emerged? Because he kind of filled that void in the 2016 season. And then 2017, he was looked to as the guy so I guess if Treadwell kind of comes out of the shoot and plays like as a rookie like a lot of the other rookies have recently might have prevented Thielen

from ever becoming a star um but having him uh hit would have been massive for like that 2016 team that 2017 team they've they've been looking for that third receiver forever and uh and to have your first round pick kind of stealing the spotlight and not being effective for multiple years uh was a huge impediment it's an interesting point about where Adam Thielen would have found himself because if Treadwell had been average, then Adam Thielen probably ends up as wide receiver three, just because if you draft the guy in the first, you're going to give him priority. So that's an interesting point. The breakout game for Adam Thielen came against the Houston Texans in week five of 2016, where he catches

a touchdown. And I think it was the first drive, an amazing throw from Sam Bradford, but that would have been Treadwell who had been bumped up into that role. Stefan Diggs was locked in after 2015. He was going to be a big part of it, but Thielen in 2015 only made a handful of catches. So was still down on the on the depth chart but he was obviously so much better than Laquan Treadwell by the time the 2016 season starts he ends up getting those opportunities when Stefan Diggs couldn't play in week five but maybe it's Treadwell instead and we never see Thielen emerge as a pro bowl player and he ends up being like a good number three with a good number two though i do tend to think talent wins out and feeling is even an average treadwell feeling is much better

than average he's one of the best receivers in the nfl so he probably still ends up as wide receiver you know two eventually it's just that there are so many times in the last few years where they didn't have that number three guy and they still don't and we would see it come up in big games where it was like against Seattle a couple of years ago where they started you could just see it on the all 22 tape they just and the Patriots at the end of that 2018 season teams would just start putting two guys on third down and I think this started with Todd Bowles and the jets where they would put two guys on feeling and digs and be like, yeah, beat us with anybody else. I dare you.

And they couldn't take the dare except for a handful of Aldrich Robinson touchdowns. And that was the other thing that this is why a first round pick bust hurts you so much is you feel obligated to give the guy every chance. And when he's bad, it hurts you. It's just like when you draft a kicker and he doesn't work out like Roberto Aguayo gets drafted.

Well, they're going to have him win the competition and kick. Same thing with Daniel Carlson when he didn't work out. And that guy's going to hurt you if he's not good. That's what Treadwell did. And they always brought in these tomato can guys like just you know Kendall Wright go beat Kendall Wright for a job go beat Tavares King yeah right like who are these people and that was another thing that I think they missed the ball on was not even really pushing Laquan Treadwell and the one guy who beat him out for that job and ended up by the

end of 2017 getting more playing time was Jarius Wright. And then he goes to Carolina and plays fine. Laquan Treadwell stays here and actively hurts them. So that that one is maybe not thought of as being damaging because Treadwell and Diggs worked out so well. But I really think that it was a very damaging draft pick because of how many opportunities they gave him. So we talked about Teddy already. So let me go back to Sharif Floyd. Do you still sometimes occasionally think about Sharif Floyd and how bizarre that entire thing was?

I've been thinking a lot about Sharif Floyd. I mean, kind of five year anniversary of the Floyd debacle. And I still kind of don't know what happened. Like, I mean, there have been lawsuits. People's feelings have been hurt. You know, a career got completely derailed. Medical malpractice. I think, I mean, if we can just like kind of re-summarize the events just to like hammer home that this was a thing.

Sharif Floyd was unreal in 2015. I know that was your first or the last year before you came here, Matthew, but you watched the season back. He was really, really good. And in tandem with Linval Joseph, that looked like a long-term duo in the middle. So 2016 comes around. This was kind of the original tweak you know we we make light of the the tweak verbiage around daniel hunter kind of the same thing with sheree floyd i mean mike zimmer downplayed it downplayed it downplayed it floyd tries to play week one can't can't be

effective get surgery guess it wasn't a tweak um and then there was a there was more downplaying after that it was like yeah yeah he should be back soon and then he he wasn't it kept lingering and i remember very very specifically about midway through the 2016 season um at winter park the the mailman at winter park would just stack mail in guys' lockers. And no one thought to get Sharif Floyd's mail. When you go on vacation, you say, hey, neighbor, can you get my mail for me? He didn't have anyone to get his mail. So Sharif Floyd has about an eight-foot-tall stack of packages and envelopes in his locker. And we're like, the guy's not here. He's not rehabbing here.

He's somewhere else completely. And that's when that started to kind of get the wheels turning. Something is amiss. And Floyd was mad that the Vikings, you know, kind of like tried to rush him back, I guess, or like they didn't, the Vikings didn't think there was anything wrong. And there was a whole medical thing going on with that knee surgery so uh where is he today i don't know i would like to know sharif if you're listening um i would love to get more information a couple years ago sharif sent out some messages on instagram and that was it and he's maybe some accusations about the vikings and how they handled it and And he was frustrated by that. I know that the Sheree Floyd situation did hurt the relationship between Mike

Zimmer and the players that year in the locker room, because Mike Zimmer made a couple of comments about Sheree Floyd that were very harsh, just something like the guy never plays. And, you know, he's just always hurt. So whatever, I don't think about him at all. Or, you know, he had some very harsh words, but the guys in the locker room knew what was going on there, or at least had some sense for what was going on in the fact that it wasn't his fault. It was a botched surgery. It was not something that Sheree Floyd could do anything about. And he would have been back on that team later in the season. Probably. I think if i

remember it was the same injury as adrian peterson with the meniscus and he was having it what they call like shaved where peterson was having it fully repaired because peterson wanted to keep playing longer uh and so sharif something went wrong you said, we've never figured out quite what. But I thought of it as not only was it an injury that hurt them, because Tom Johnson was good, but it wasn't quite the same as having Sharif Floyd, who was an every down type of player and could handle the run part of that. So it ended up being like Shamar Stephan, Tom Johnson, and Linval. But Linval got hurt that year toward the end of

the year was playing through an injury in 2016. Their defense wasn't perfect. And that's what it needed to be in a lot of those games. And there was just a little bit missing that maybe he could have filled some of that void. So I thought about it from that perspective too, is Shreve Floyd. And then just like the guy, I mean, if you read Shreve Floyd's background came from just really, really tough situation, gets into the league, first round pick. Yeah, his first few years were not perfect, but they were pretty darn good.

He had the potential to be a great player. And for that one to not work out, I just thought that was, it was like one of the sadder busts because the guy did have the talent to do it. Some of these other ones we talk about, like, ah, well, Treadwell, it was just never there. Sheree Floyd had the talent to be a very good player. Yeah, I'm reading an article right now from 2018. Vikings pick up $3.9 million of cap room

after Sheree Floyd dropped a grievance. And I think it got to the point where the Vikings had picked up his fifth year option, which was going to be 2017. But then when Floyd wasn't able to play non-football injury, I think the Vikings got money back from that. And Floyd wanted that money, something along those lines. So there's bitterness between the two sides. Maybe some personal, you know, bitterness harbored against Mike Zimmer or anybody that made some of those remarks. And I think I would hope Mike Zimmer has maybe learned a couple of things about commenting on injured players, like can't make the club in the tub mentality, which we heard a couple of times earlier on in his tenure.

I know Zimmer gets frustrated by it, but sometimes it doesn't always go to like the timetable that you plan. And not every surgery is going to be perfectly successful despite what the press releases say. And it is a shame because that's a first round pick. That was a good first round pick. And, you know, they, they really lacked that penetrating three technique until Sheldon Richardson for one year. And after that, they still really don't three technique until Sheldon Richardson for one year. And after that, they still really don't have one until Sheldon Richardson came back a couple of weeks ago. So it left a big void positionally. And on that particular 2016 team where the offense kind of fell off a cliff.

And again, another meniscus, like when Peterson, you know, left for what, 14 weeks that year, 13 weeks, that was a pretty big hit to that offense as well. Hey everyone, I want to tell you about our friends at Scout Logistics. And I really do mean it when I say friends. They are fans of Purple Insider over at Scout Logistics. And since they reached out wanting to support this show, I want to tell you about what they do. Scout Logistics is just-in-time transportation for full tractor-trailer loads. And if you're wondering what that means exactly, well, if you own or work for a company that needs shipping solutions, they are the preferred carrier of Fortune 500 companies across North America.

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how scout logistics can minimize risk and overperform and go the extra mile for your company so as we go back and talk about you know guys who mostly on the list here have impacted the era is kind of what we're going to be able to get to today. And I want to know where you put Cordero Patterson in this, because he's in a very unique place in Vikings bust history to me. He's the greatest kick returner probably ever. So from that perspective, it's hard to say what a unbelievable bust you guys couldn't spot a good player. If it was right in front of you. No, they spotted a good player who was incredible with the ball in his hand and has had a great career

and played a halfway decent role on a Super Bowl team with the New England Patriots and has had his moments as a playmaker throughout his career. But he is one of those rare instances in the Zimmer era. I have trouble thinking of even any other example of this, where there was just a lot left on the table. I'm not sure there are too many other guys.

Maybe you could argue that Diggs proved last year that they had left some on the table, but he was a superstar here. It's not like there was a big difference between a guy being a significant player and being nothing, which is what Cordero Patterson essentially was to them. And he always had the talent. They just totally mismanaged it. And Mike Zimmer admitted that eventually I I've always found that one to be interesting because it really stands out as the one player that they just kind of didn't see it, but it was there.

A lot of the guy, a lot of guys, the Vikings give up on don't end up being anything, and it justifies their decision. And the fact that Patterson has had a life after the Vikings, four seasons in the league that have been decently serviceable, I think kind of proves that. And Mike Zimmer admitting that they left something on the table also proves that. But I wrote about Patterson in the What Could Have they left something on the table also proves that. But I wrote about Patterson in the what could have been piece today on the website. So I've got a few

numbers just top of head. So Patterson under Bill Musgrave, 2013. Second half of that year, almost 500 scrimmage yards and seven touchdowns. Four through the year, I believe, and three on the ground. And it's the fact that Bill Musgrave wasn't afraid to throw Patterson's way. He was like a top 35 target guy in league. They were throwing to him willingly, and that opened up possibilities on the ground. And the last five weeks of that season, they gave the ball to Patterson on the ground 10 times for 156 yards and three touchdowns. It was clear that they'd figured something out, and he was doing enough through the air to make it worth it. Even if he wasn't the best route runner, he was establishing himself as a threat through the air, which opened things up on the ground. So week one, the next year, Norv Turner's calling the shots.

They got Patterson three rushing plays, 102 yards and a touchdown. So like the formula is working. Inexplicably after that, under Norv Turner, Cordero Patterson didn't get multiple carries in any game ever again, which is absurd. And they just gave up on him. Like they took him out of the lineup because he wasn't as impactful through the year as he needed to be. And he didn't regain his spot until 2016, like with Pat Shermer, who, you know, Patterson improved as a route runner and he was effective as a receiver that year, still really never was given a chance as a ball carrier. And the irony is in 2014, Peterson was out most of the year. In 2016, Peterson was out most of the year. Matt Asiata was carrying like a heavy load those seasons and they couldn't find room for Cordero Patterson to

touch the ball. One of the, in like the league's worst rushing offense. That was a little bit of coaching malpractice in my opinion. I remember a reverse against Detroit in 2016, where he takes off for like 30 or 40 yards and then they never did it again. It's like, why, but why? And I mean, there's, there's a lot of that where, you know, he got a, I remember a screen pass against the giants that he just broke out and made a big play. And they tried that, and sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't work. But this is a guy that you can line up in a bunch of different spots.

I mean, you could go shotgun and put him in the backfield and run him a little check down, and he'll break three tackles and get 30 yards or something. I mean, he's just one of the most unstoppable players with the ball in his hands. And yet they almost did a little like bite off your nose to spite your face kind of thing. Like, no, we're going to hand off to Matt Asiata. We're going to run the wildcat with Jarek McKinnon, which is like mildly successful, I guess. We're going to do that rather than put in Cordero Patterson and be creative with him. And Schirmer, Schirmer kind of went like halfway there on it, but not full end of 2013 Musgrave. And other teams have probably still

not quite done enough. I think the Raiders sort of made the same mistake after signing him that they didn't use him enough as a playmaker. New England, of course, no surprise did. He didn't put up massive numbers but he was effective he was helpful and then chicago last year their offense was just garbage and they were trying him as a pure running back which i also would not advise either like that's not really it's not like a full-time running back i don't think but playing him at running back occasionally would have made a lot of sense and the the long-term ripple effect of this i think was really felt in 2017 2018 even 2019 where if you had this i mean well part of it is also treadwell getting drafted i

mean maybe if you feel really good about cordero patterson is a playmaker you're not doing that but it's also felt in you were missing that guy to just give you a random explosive play. If it wasn't Diggs doing it and it wasn't Thielen doing it, it wasn't Delvin Cook doing it. It wasn't happening. Nobody else other than Aldrick Robinson on a random couple of throws downfield. But nobody else is making big plays. I thought even in 2017, as good as their offense was, that they missed that, having that extra guy there from time to time. And certainly in the last two or three years, they've missed having that.

It's a shame because almost everything else about Patterson's kind of profile was good, except for the route running. His hands were good. Like, he didn't drop a lot of balls in limited chances. He was kind of a good contested catch guy. He was really good after the catch and he had speed. So everything was good about him. It's just that, you know, early on in 2014, and this is what Mike Zimmer got agitated about. And I assume Norv Turner as well, is that he wasn't taking the right number of steps. And we probably underestimate how important that is. Like it, it's pretty

important to be precise and for your quarterback to be able to trust you. I just, when I look, when I see that, you know, Christian Ponder and Matt Castle, Castle, right? Yeah. Matt Castle were able to kind of make it work in 2013. Why couldn't you make it work in 2015 and 2014? Yeah. The route running there. I just wonder how many receivers there are in the league who do something well, just one thing. And that's what they do every week for their team that not everybody's going to be stefan diggs or adam thielen or if you're norv turner i don't know maybe you're looking for the next michael irvin or something but there's just not many guys who do a bunch of things great there's maybe 15 guys in the league and then everybody else fills their role this is a team

that's been willing to have chad bb fill his little role of out of the slot running out routes, but was not willing to put Cordero Patterson in the backfield or the slot and run them with reverses or screens. It's just that one is always odd. And the fact, the other fact too, that Patterson wanted to come back and talked about on multiple occasions, how he wanted to come back. And yet they just said, no, we don't want you. And he was always going to come back and talked about on multiple occasions how he wanted to come back and yet they just said no we don't want you and he was always going to come back for cheap because he never signed expensive anywhere uh let me ask you this question who you'd rather talk about here to end this christian ponder or matt khalil is matt khalil interesting enough to talk about or is it

not because i don't know sometimes i think it's not like he got hurt. He didn't really like football and a story, but give me your choice. We'll talk about one more. Okay. Let's talk about ponder because Khalil is, it's the same conversation that we had with Elf line a little bit, you know, the, the great rookie year, the injuries that plagued him. Khalil got pretty interesting because then he started kind of caving to all the criticism and he knocked a guy's hat off of his

head outside of a stadium one time. And I think Deadspin picked it up. That was kind of funny. But no, let's talk about the more interesting position quarterback. Yeah. And my thing just real quick with matt khalil is his injury in 2016 probably didn't make a whole lot of difference because his backup was just as bad and then 2017 through present their left tackle play is good so it really didn't destroy them other than in the one year in 2015 where they were good but he was still a problem so it's not that interesting now Mike Zimmer blamed Charlie Johnson for Matt Khalil's problems and that uh that turned out to not be uh not be correct okay the only what could have been though with Matt Khalil is that the

Vikings tried to sign him after his rookie contract was up they tried to sign him first before going and getting Riley Reif which absolutely makes you question everything they do about offensive line like if you're the person that goes what is with this team why can't they figure out what to do on the o-line like you're totally fair in doing that because the decisions that they've made up there save for drafting Derisaw which I think is a pretty good choice have a lot been very questionable and trying to resign Matt Khalil. Think about how that would have blown up.

Maybe 2017, you don't go 13 and three because Reef was fine. Khalil would have been a disaster. He was horrible for Carolina and then his career over pretty quickly after that. So anyway, well, let's talk about Christian Ponder. So they pick him in 2011. Mike Mayock has a conniption on television live. If you ever want to see someone just like a robot guy, just like malfunction, Christian Ponder being drafted that high. That's what happened that night.

He does win 10 games in 2012 on a running first team on a good defense team, but it was quickly over after that. And probably people still realized that it wasn't going very well with him when he averaged six yards of pass attempt in 2012. If this one had worked out though, here's what I would say about this. Tell me if you agree, even if he had worked out to be a good quarterback, I'm not sure where it takes you because his rookie contract was just so bad or, or they weren't good enough as a team to get anywhere, even if they had good quarterback play, maybe save for 2012. So I'm not sure that you end up getting a whole lot out of it and then you've got to

pay him, which ups the bar of how good you have to be. So tell me what you think of that. Uh, yeah, that's correct. I mean, they were still kind of dealing with the vestiges of the Favre team. There were a lot of old guys, bad contracts that needed to be shed. And I think if the Vikings were going to win something meaningful with Ponder, it had to be the 2013 team, which was thought to be good going into the season. But then they realized, well, we can't rely on a 2,000-yard Peterson season, and Ponder's going to get exposed here. And that's exactly what happened.

But I remember a couple of the early games in the 2011 season when Ponder began to play, I think people convinced themselves that he was actually showing some things. I mean, he got a win against Carolina in his second game, didn't commit a turnover. His debut against Green Bay wasn't horrible. He kind of brought them back in that game late, if I recall recall and they almost won at the Metrodome um and they they were in some games like late that year where they put up a lot of points and people were like this is great Christian Ponder's putting up points but they're losing and getting a better draft pick this is the best case scenario um and then they got Matt Khalil with that draft pick so all things are circular but no the um i mean can you imagine like can you imagine

if they had been sort of uh coaxed into giving ponder an additional contract what that would have meant to the zimmer era i mean think about that one for a minute if ponder had been good um enough to to get that that would have been devastating. Now, if he had been legitimately good, if he'd been actually good, um, I mean, that, that kind of changes everything. Cause then you're not taking Bridgewater, you know, Mike Zimmer might not even be the coach in 2014. Leslie Frazier is probably still the coach. There's a ton of ripple effects off of that. If he had been somewhere in the middle, then that's where you get into the kind of problem of like being stuck but also they didn't have a good supporting cast on the offense until 2017

even 2015 it's like mike wallace and who is the other guy charles johnson is it charles greg jennings charles johnson charles johnson. And then, uh, right. They, I mean, they just didn't, they didn't have good wide receivers until digs emerged. And then he wasn't fully digs until 2016, but the offensive line is horrible in 2016. They couldn't run the ball then either. So you still didn't have a great sporting cast. So it would have taken years and years for them to build that up to the point where they actually had enough to elevate an average quarterback. And then he would have been an expensive average quarterback. So I don't see how it would have worked unless he was an elite quarterback. Then, like you said, Mike Zimmer is

not the coach of the Minnesota Vikings. Had he been elite, then all of a sudden you're talking about a completely different story, but who knows who comes along if that happens. It just shows you the ripple effect that happens when you get an elite quarterback, like that people want to come play on your team at that point. I mean, even if you couldn't draft receivers, you would just be able to bring them here because they'd want to come play with Christian Ponder. And I remember Greg Jennings saying when we interviewed him at the Superbowl, he said he came here because he thought Christian Ponder was going to be good and he was excited to play with him. And then once he got here, he went, oh, no, this is not this is not interesting but the like what it meant for him to be a bust and where the franchise had to go after him i think is so that's what makes what could have been week so much fun

sam the uh jennings probably saw the week 17 game where ponder played the game of his life in 2012 vikings needed to win to make the playoffs. Ponder never did this any other time, but he threw for three touchdowns and no interceptions, 234 yards, only got sacked once, and played hurt at the end of that game. And because he was hurt, he couldn't play in the playoffs. So when Christian Ponder lays his head on the pillow at night,

he can always think about that game um and then he can uh lean over give sam a kiss and go to bed this is um another theme week maybe down the road at some point would be the most random pop-up games uh like guys just had one great game and they were never good before and they were never good after, but there it was Christian Ponder and his one great game. So another episode of what could have been, we got more to come. Uh, we have a hot routes edition with you and I and Manny Hill as well, where we answer five key questions relating to what could have been. So if you listened on the live stream on the green room app,

make sure you guys go check out the website, purple insider.substack.com where we're writing about these things. And then we've got podcasts all week for a fun theme. I want to do this every year around this time is just have like a fun theme week because nobody's doing anything otherwise, except for debating everyone's top 10 lists. So thank you for your time, as always, Sam. I appreciate it.

We'll do it again soon. Yeah, you bet. Thanks, Collar.