Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Michigan beat reporter breaks down McCarthy and Mel Kiper mocks him to Vikings

Episode Date: April 11, 2024

Mlive.com Michigan football beat reporter Aaron McMann joins the show to talk about what he learned about JJ McCarthy covering him last year and Matthew talks with Vikings fans about a bold plan within Mel Kiper Jr.'s latest mock draft. Is it really worth it to trade up for.... THAT quarterback? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

insider matt collar here and joining me on the show is aaron mcmahon he is a michigan football beat reporter for mlive.com you know a, we have been talking pretty much nonstop about JJ McCarthy, but you had a chance to cover JJ McCarthy's entire time at Michigan. So let me start out with this question. Did you expect to hear that the Minnesota Vikings could potentially trade up into the top five to draft JJ McCarthy. Was that something that you expected after the national championship? Probably not. But I guess nothing surprised me at this point. You know, when he initially declared at the beginning of January after Michigan won national championship, I think the assumption at that point was he was kind of looked at as like a fringe first-round pick.

I think the assumption was he was going to go first round just because he played at Michigan and they won a national championship and he had all that success. But we've seen him gradually move up the board now in the last couple of months. I think part of that has been the need for a quarterback. I think a lot of NFL talent evaluators have turned on the film and realized, wow, JJ may be a little bit better than we thought, than maybe the numbers show. So you see him make this rise. He's gone from like borderline first round to middle of the first round. And now we're hearing his name, it seems like over and over in the top 10. And now

we're hearing top five. So no, not shocked um you know the teams are always you know uh you know uh you know it could be any team right like any a lot of several teams looking for quarterbacks you don't know which one necessarily wants to move up and get him but um no i mean his ceiling is so high uh and we'll probably get into that in a minute but no the kid the kid is talented um there's no doubt about it. He played winning football. So from an NFL perspective, I get why teams are interested. Well, I want to go back to kind of the whole story of him in Michigan. He comes in and becomes a bit of a game manager type for last year and sort of shows that there's something there.

And throughout this last season, then he's taking this great team to win after win after win. But they're not really leaning on him. They're leaning much more on Blake Corum in the running game. And you talk about that ceiling. I guess when he came in, he was highly recruited, the IMG thing and all that. Talk about the growth that you saw from him from kind of the time that he got there until that national championship game. Yeah, you could tell when Jim Harbaugh recruited him, there was a desire right away.

He loved the kid. He kind of saw, I think, a lot of himself in J.J. McCarthy. And he gravitated toward him pretty quickly. You know, Jim was known not to play freshman quarterbacks much. And it certainly didn't start. And it was rare if they saw the field uh jay's freshman year you know he was kind of played this like ancillary backup position where they throw him in casually in games and certain packages in certain situations i think just to get his feet wet and see what they had out of him um you know he had a moment early in his freshman

year in a non-conference game i i think it was western michigan one of the first few games where he had this across-the-field throw that went for like 70 yards on the touchdown. And I think right away fans got excited because they heard about him in high school and the arm strength and the talent and everything else. But Jim kind of waited a year. He had Cade McNamara, who kind of came out of nowhere to win the starting job in the 2021. They were winning with him, so there's necessarily no need to kind of throw J.J.

into the fire right away. But they did a good job bringing him along. As I said, they used him occasionally in 21. They're winning with him, so there's necessarily no need to kind of throw J.J. into the fire right away, but they did a good job bringing him along. As I said, they used him occasionally in 21. He eventually won the starting job in 2022, and it was kind of growth from there. He's got a really good arm. You can tell he's a winner. I mean, everywhere he's been, he won a state title in Illinois. He went down to ING Academy, the football factory in Florida, and won there. So he's been surrounded by good players, and he's used to winning. And I think that's the difference between him and maybe some of these other quarterbacks that are considered high-level prospects. So from a girls' perspective, I think you saw much of it at Michigan.

Yes, they didn't throw the ball a ton. I mean, this past year, I think they're running the ball at a 60% clip, which is top 10 in the country. So they necessarily didn't lean on him a ton. When you look at his numbers, I mean, he was arguably one of the more productive and efficient quarterbacks in the country. You know, completion percentage above 70%, quarterback rating that was extremely high. When they leaned on him and they had to use him, he came through. And I think that was a difference with Michigan's offense. Well, and that's the thing that we're talking about so much is that quarterbacks with lower

uses versus someone like Michael Penix and Penix is much older than JJ McCarthy. So some of it is trying to project in a system for the Minnesota Vikings where you'd be talking about throwing the ball five or 600 times where he's never really had to do that. And I think that's what makes him a little bit of a hard projection for me, but it seems like every time he's discussed that personality and character is the first thing that comes up. So I read all the draft analysts and their takes on it from insiders, but you've had a chance to cover him. I want to understand what this character and personality is better that makes him such an attractive prospect. Yeah, he's a unique guy. Everyone I think assumes he's this like rah-rah

leader type guy. He's not really that. You have to remember he wasn't voted captain by his team this past year in Michigan. There were some other guys, But he's kind of a show it on the field type guy where he stays after practice and works extra. He has no problem working with the receivers and the running backs to develop continuity. He's definitely a team first guy. You really saw that during his time at Michigan because the last couple of years, I can't tell you how many times he got asked questions. Well, do you wish you'd throw the ball? You know, is this offense suitable for you? Do you wish you were in a more, you know, high-octane offense?

And his response every time was, I'm just trying to win football games for the team. So I think he'll be up wherever he lands, whether it's Minnesota, whether it's somewhere else, I think he's going to be a great locker room fit. He's not going to be an issue. The kid's as nice as they come. I've been covering the team now for seven plus years, and I can't think of a nicer kid that I've covered, and I genuinely mean that.

He has a tough time, and it's almost a negative toward him. He has a tough time saying no to people. Every interview that was asked of him he would do in college, every opportunity, every business deal he would say yes to. He's a people pleaser. That's who J.J. yes to. He's a people pleaser. That's who J.J. McCarthy is. He's a great locker room guy. People gravitate toward him.

I remember going to a summer camp last year with one of his Michigan teammates. One of his teammates actually hosted the camp in his hometown. He was the center of attention. And J.J. ended up being the more popular kid at the camp. The kids gravitated toward him. They rushed toward him. They loved him. That's just kind of who he is.

He can be a face of franchise, and I think he'd do a great job of it. But he's a little different leader. He's not that locker room going to sit up and give a speech and everything else. That's not him. He's more do it on the field. Okay, what's with the pregame warm-up stuff? Is he a strange guy?

I was thinking like Will Levis and how he put mayo in his coffee. And that was a big red flag. I'm mostly kidding. But I am curious about that in particular because every single game would make a big deal out of it. Here he's sitting below the goalposts and all that. What do we know about that?

Yeah, so he got the meditating thing under the goalpost pregame from one of Michigan's former punters, Brad Robbins. So I think he just started doing it a few years ago. But it's certainly become a regular part of his routine. He says it helps calm him down and kind of allows him to kind of get motivated for the game. He can be an eccentric guy. You know, there's one time this past season, right before the Penn State game, I was at the football building in Ann Arbor waiting for the team to depart for the airport. And the buses were pulled

up next to the building. And most of the team had boarded the buses. The coaches were there. They couldn't find McCarthy. He was kind of by himself on the practice field, I guess, meditating on his own. So he can be a little eccentric. It's worked for him. Certainly no one's complained about it. They've kind of let him do his thing. And obviously it's amounted to success. I think that every single one of these guys is weird. Like if you become a really good anything, but especially quarterback, they all have odd quirky things. And Kirk Cousins, who, you know, obviously we covered for a long time here, had a lot of eccentricities to himself as well. And I think probably every quarterback does, but that was, that became kind of obnoxious from the broadcast every single time. Like we're going

to focus it on him and can we let him meditate? We have to have the cameras like circling around him. So I guess if he could focus through that uh when you talked about his ceiling though this is the most intriguing part to the minnesota vikings because when you watch him back which i have done more than i thought that i would going into uh this draft season but you see you mentioned the arm strength but you also see some inconsistency in that at times and you see mobility and playmaking at times. And then there are other times where you're like, Hey buddy, you could probably outrun some people like go ahead and take off. How far in your mind does he have to go to reach that ceiling from where he was last

year? I think it comes, comes with probably throwing the ball more and being put more in those pressure situations. You got to remember that the last that really the last couple of years, Michigan won a lot of football games. They weren't really in many close games to begin with, so he wasn't under a ton of pressure. When he did make mistakes, the one game that comes to mind right away

is the TCU game in the semifinal a couple of years ago. He was under pressure, physically and literally too. It was one of those situations where you weren't used to being in a tight game, you're on the big stage, and you throw a couple of pick sixes and people are scratching their heads wondering, you know, what type of quarterback are you? And so I think he learned from it a little bit. The one negative with J.J. is when he does make a mistake,

they tend to compile. We saw that even this season against Bowling Green, non-conference game. Michigan's projected to win, favored to win, and they ended up winning big, but he threw three picks. And the minute afterwards, he was forcing things. He had this stat in his mind. He wanted to have more touchdown passes and incompletions at that point. It was this wild thing.

So he kind of gets hyper-focused on certain things. I think that needs to be taken away, and I think he needs to maybe be a little less pressure. And he's talked about that a lot. He faces a lot of pressure, I think, and that goes with the territory of being a quarterback and everything else. But I think if he's put in a system, he's able to get the rhythm, and he has playmakers around him, I think that's going to help. And one thing a lot of folks don't talk about really at Michigan during his time is maybe the lack of elite receivers that he had. I mean, good quarterbacks can make themselves, but receivers help too. Michigan didn't have a ton of that.

They had Roman Wilson this year, but there was no elite guy that can go up and get the football, like Caleb Williams had it at USC or Michael Penix had it at Washington. Guys can go up and get the football and create something. So he had to do a lot of that on his own in a way. So I'm curious to see what he looks like at the NFL level surrounded by elite talent like at Minnesota. They've got some great receivers, and I think that would certainly help his case. But I think it's going to be a learning process.

It's probably going to take him a year or two to get used to the NFL style playbook and everything else. But, you know, he's got the intangibles. It's something Jim Harbaugh harped on. And obviously it makes sense because he's the head coach and he wants to push this guy and everything else. But, um, you know, remember Harbaugh is the NFL quarterback. He knows good quarterbacks when he sees them.

And, you know, of, of the seven years I covered this Michigan football team, um, there was never a quarterback more, more talked about from a powerball standpoint than J.J. McCarthy. Do you think that if he didn't win the national championship and he had played for a regular program that went like 10-2 or something, that he would have not come out in the draft, and then by next year he would have thrown 500 passes and had 40 touchdowns and 10 interceptions.

This is the thing that I struggle with the most is it's hard to unsee the production that's right in front of you rather than having to imagine the production that would have happened. But as you mentioned, if they had leaned on him in the following season, it would have been his offense. Then his statistics probably would have been quite a bit different. So in your mind, should, if the Vikings draft him, should they play Sam Darnold for the majority, if not the entire next season and try to develop JJ McCarthy, even as difficult as that can be when you draft a

quarterback high? Yeah, I think so. It would not surprise me. I think it would probably do him some good putting him on the bench for a year, letting him learn the ways. Darnold's obviously an experienced vet. They could probably help him along. That would make sense to me. I'm not obviously in the minds of the GM there in Minnesota. But I got to think it's a possibility. And to your point about him playing in more of a high-octane offense,

I'll go a step further. If he had played in that Washington offense or washington offense or in oregon with some of those receivers or usc i do think he would put up fan you know incredible numbers his passing yards would have obviously probably been near the top we're throwing for a bit more touchdowns it just it just makes sense right i think he has the arm ability and the ability to place the ball in the tight windows that some of these other quarterbacks don't necessarily have on a more regular basis so i I do think so. And it was just,

I think his lack in production or lack of numbers is, it was a direct result of the offense he played in. But I, you know, JJ, I do think a year would do him some good sitting, just sitting and watching and kind of absorbing everything. You know,

that's what he did at Michigan. And I think it helped him. And I think it would, it would help with NFL level too. I think so too. It's just one of those things where when you draft someone, if you trade up to the fifth overall pick or something, and then the owner, you get maybe your four and six at some point.

And Sam Darnold's not playing that well. And everyone says, see the kids. I mean, last year, they even ended up playing Jaron Hall a little bit because they got frustrated with Josh Jobs and Nick Mullins. I do want to ask you about Jim Harbaugh and his coaching style there, because I think that this does play into McCarthy and the numbers and that whole discussion because Jim Harbaugh is from the nineties. And I respect the fact that he would have handed the ball off to Marshall Falk a hundred times when he was playing. I guess, was Marshall Falk playing with him? Maybe he was. But you know what I mean?

Like that's how they ran offense then. McCarthy playing under center would have mattered to me because he's going to do that in the NFL. But I wonder like how much was not wanting to lean on McCarthy? How much was Jim Harbaugh being kind of old school? How much was the fact that the running back was good and it was just the way to win? How do we weigh all these different factors with the way that Harbaugh wanted to play football? Yeah, it's important to point out, Jim basically played the same style of offense the entire time in his time at Michigan. They gravitated more towards a West Coast style passing game for a year or two before JJ got there and they noticed it didn't really work out. Part of it was, I think, the play calling, and I think part of it was just the personnel they have didn't fit the offense.

But once J.J. got here, I think the assumption was they were going to open it up a little bit more. Everyone saw his arm and his playmaking ability, and they kind of went the opposite way. Part of that was their inability to beat Ohio State at that point and to kind of get over the hump and get into the Big Ten championship. So I think they realized that they couldn't beat Ohio State throwing the ball, so they had to kind of go the totally opposite direction. And Michigan's largely recruited offensive linemen very well. They've had some under-the-radar running backs in the past.

They've always made an attempt to recruit tight ends. So I think they made the decision that kind of – that was how the offense was going to operate, whether J.J. McCarthy was a quarterback or someone else was there. The strength was going to be in the trenches up front with the running backs and the offensive line. And they had so much success doing it in 2021 with Cade McNamara as a starter and not J.J. McCarthy.

I think they realized that was the way to go. And as I said earlier, J., JJ seemed on board with it all. You know, there was never one time where we heard rumors about him deciding, you know, considering a transfer or wanting to go elsewhere. He got on board with it, and it worked. You know, he made the most of it when he did throw the football. But that was kind of, you know, they had a couple of good running backs, Hassan Haskins, and then obviously Blake Corham the last couple of years.

But they made the decision to kind of lean on that, and that's how it worked. You know, it's important to point out, Jim necessarily wasn't the guy calling the plays, but the offense was certainly modeled in his vision of what he wanted, and that's how they rolled. That's how they won. That's how they kind of flipped the script, I guess, in the Big Ten because for so long the narrative was Michigan, you know,

couldn't beat Ohio State. They couldn't get over the hump and get in the Big Ten, because for so long, the narrative was Michigan, you know, couldn't beat Ohio State. They couldn't get over the hump and get in the Big Ten championship game. And eventually, you know, they went, well, Ohio State zigged, they kind of zagged and it worked. Yeah, in connection with the whole offense and McCarthy and so forth, it just seems like coachable is the word that keeps coming up and somebody who is going to follow what his coach tells him they need to do to win, which could be very important with Kevin O'Connell because this relationship between a former quarterback head coach and the quarterback and those guys building an offense

together is going to be really vital to whether this pick succeeds or not. Do you think that Jim Harbaugh was actually close to becoming the Vikings head coach or was that more of just our friend John U Bacon who we all became aware of putting out stuff for Harbaugh? Do you think that actually came close? I do. There was desire at that point that Jim wanted to go back to the NFL and he admitted that afterwards. There's always been a burning desire to go back. He got so close to winning a Super Bowl and almost beating his brother when he was head coach of the 49ers that there was.

And I think part of it, too, is the inability up to that point, as I was talking about, getting over the hump. You know, remember, you know, he went and it was 2021 and, you know, they're coming off a Big Ten title finally. They finally had, you know, a successful, like, really good season. And people were calling. I don't know. I don't know how close he was to getting that Minnesota job.

He obviously was being seriously considered. He flew out there and interviewed with Kwasi. You know, from my understanding, they still have a good relationship. You know, Kwasi was on the sidelines of the Michigan-Minnesota game this past year in Minneapolis. And I saw him firsthand. He was having conversations with Jim. And they still have a friendly relationship to this day. So I have to think, too, Jim lobbying for J.J., whether him coming out a few months ago and saying he should be the number one quarterback off the board or he's the best quarterback of all time at Michigan.

I think that does resonate with folks. And in relationship with Quest, he probably helps. So I have to think that could be one of the reasons why the Vikings are certainly seriously considering drafting J.J. McCarthy. And also could be maybe trading up to number five in order to do so. That has always made even a little more sense to me

than Arizona because Arizona needs great players for Kyler Murray, and I think Los Angeles needs all the players. How do you think he's going to do in his return to the NFL? It seems like he took over a team with a quarterback and not a whole heck of a lot else. I think it's going to take a couple of years for Jimmy to put his touch on things. Yeah, it probably will. The one thing that Jim has shown, whether it's going to take a couple of years for Jimmy to put his touch on things. Yeah, it probably will. The one thing that Jim has shown, whether it's in the college level or the pro level,

is the guy knows how to win. I mean, he started his coaching career at University of San Diego, this FCS school, kind of no one expecting to do anything there. He won there. He goes to Stanford, wins there. Again, another school that isn't necessarily known for football. And then he goes to the 49ers and proves that, you know, he can put together winning teams and get to the, you know, the final stage.

And then he finally does it at Michigan. So, yeah, I think eventually it will be successful. It might take him a year or two. But the Chargers job makes so much sense to me. I mean, he still has a home in Southern California. He's familiar with the area. You know, he was friendly with the Chargers ownership group. He knows what it takes to win that level. And I think there was obviously a burning desire, as I was talking about earlier,

to get back there. So I think he wants to prove, you know, there was, and he talked about it this year, there was always this rival, sibling rivalry with his brother, John. John got the, you know, the notch on him in the Super Bowl, and he was able to finally win a college national championship. So I think the next goal for him is winning a Super Bowl, and I think he's determined to do anything he can to get there. So I think eventually he'll be successful. It might take a year or two, as you said,

but I think the first step in finding a team to coach is having a good quarterback, and he certainly got that with Justin Herbert. Now it's on them to kind of fill pieces around him and kind of play the style of football that Jim Harbaugh thinks can win out there. Yeah, that'll be very interesting to watch. And of course, there was a section of Vikings fans who desperately wanted Jim Harbaugh to be their head coach here. I think that everything ended up right for everybody.

He's got his big quarterback here and the vikings with o'connell i think is going to work out with them long term uh last thing for you though uh aaron how funny is it that detroit is hosting the draft and they don't have a high pick for the first time in forever like does matt millen make the pick does he come out and take a wide receiver or something? What's that like for Detroit to actually be good when they're hosting the draft there? Yeah, it's ironic, right?

Because I feel like year after year, the draft was kind of like Detroit Super Bowl, right? There's always that hope that they could get this franchise-changing player, and they rarely did. And now, you know, they're coming off their best season in a very long time, and now they're drafting late. The word is they may decide to trade up. It also wouldn't surprise me if they traded out of that pick,

if whoever's on their board isn't available that late. So nonetheless, it's a big deal for the city. Detroit is very much a sports town. They clamor for good football. They love good football. I think the nation saw that this year with some of those lines, especially the playoff games where Fort Field was jammed and tickets were going for thousands of dollars and everything else.

They won a winner. They finally got it. So I think they're willing to excuse it as long as they can get back there and make another run next year. But nonetheless, downtown Detroit will be packed that weekend. I'm excited to see it. It's a long time coming. And Lions fans, nonetheless, I think we'll be eager to see who they take in the first round.

Yeah, you can't host the draft and then trade out of the first round. Then you're going to get booed there in Detroit, although it's not Philadelphia, so maybe they'd be fine with it. Aaron McMahon, great stuff, man. I really appreciate your insight into J.J. McCarthy and that system there at Michigan. And also, I'm jealous that you got to cover a championship. That's something we don't get to cover as reporters in Minnesota very often. So I hope you had a good time doing that. And I really appreciate your time, man.

Thanks for coming on. Yeah, thanks for having me. Folks, we all have smartphones and we know that they are pretty amazing, but they can also be amazingly distracting, especially when we're around other people. So U.S. Cellular wants us to reset our relationship with our phones by putting down our phones for five. That's right. A company that sells phones wants us to put down our phones and see what we can find. Learn more at uscellular.com slash built for us. That's uscellular.com slash built for us.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here for another YouTube live stream. Welcome in, everybody, as we continue the march toward the NFL draft. And I got to tell you the truth. When I was dialing up the live stream, I was thinking about, all right, what do I want to talk about tonight with the audience? I'm sure there will be great questions, great comments. And I was trying to figure out when the last time it was that we had a breaking news podcast, an emergency. We had to jump right into the live stream and fire away with our hot takes. And it's been a little while and I can feel the antsiness of everybody. All right. Okay. We got a couple more weeks here. Give us some news. Give us a rumor that makes

sense. And I realized, and I'm not above this. You're not above this because you're here, but we've been reduced to now breaking down mocks. And that's what we're going to do here tonight is talk about Mel Kuyper's idea for the Minnesota Vikings in his most recent mock. And, you know, I think that there are a few guys out there doing the draft analysis where their mocks are worthy of a breakdown and Mel Kuyper still swings that type of big stick. So we've got Mel Kiper's idea for the Vikings, which I think is going to be a controversial little bit within Vikings land. And that's why I wanted to talk about it because Mel Kiper, I'll just jump right into what his idea was, and then we can react to it and discuss it.

He drops his latest mock and he has the Minnesota Vikings making a big move up to the number five overall pick. Now I'm sure you're thinking, okay, all right, up to the five overall pick, which means 11 and 23 to the Los Angeles chargers. All right. That sounds good. Draft JJ McCarthy there and go forward. But no, this is the scary part.

Mel Kiper Jr. has the Vikings not only trading 11 and 23 to get the number five overall pick from Jimmy Harbaugh and the Chargers, but he also has the Vikings being forced to throw in that 2025 first round draft pick to get JJ McCarthy. And Mel Kiper said, quote, I don't think the Vikings can afford to wait until number 11 if they want one of the top four quarterbacks. So let's start the reaction train right here is it worth it for the vikings to give up the 2025 first round pick to technically i always call this three first round picks technically to swap now you are giving up three of your first round picks for one of their first round picks so you can look at it whatever way you like, but to swap number 11 and

number five, then add 23 and 2025. Maybe that actually makes you feel better about it than saying three first round draft picks. If you put it in the way that it's actually a pick swap, and then an additional two picks, 23 is likely to be a pretty good pick in this draft with all the defensive talent that's going to be knocked down the board and 2025 first round draft pick. If we were projecting right now where the Vikings would land in the draft, would we say maybe 14 somewhere between 14th and 18th? And that's probably what you're going to give up if you compete for the playoffs, but don't make it. So is it worth swapping picks, adding the number 23 pick and say the 14th pick from next season?

It is a lot to ask, but I don't think it's an unrealistic scenario that Mel Kiper is throwing out here. I think a lot of people have been on board with the idea of trading all of this if it meant getting Drake May at the end of the rainbow. But with JJ McCarthy, in my mind, there has been different tiers. There has been the get one of the top three tier. There's been the McCarthy tier in his own bucket. And then there is Pennix and Bo Nix who people are absolutely all over the place in, in mock drafts. I saw another one today from a credible mocker, if there is such a thing. And, uh, they had Bo Nix going number 12 to the Denver Broncos. And then in Mel Kuyper's mock, I have this here somewhere. Uh, let's see. He had them going number 33, Bo Nix to the New York Giants and number 37, Michael Pennix to the Los Angeles Rams, which doesn't seem unrealistic

either. So here's my question. If the two options are to do Mel Kuyper's mock draft scenario, which is to give up 11-23 and the first round pick for next year, or if Bo Nix and Michael Penix are both on the board at number 23, taking whichever one Kevin O'Connell likes more, personally, I'm leaning toward Michael Penix in this scenario, which would you rather do? And if you knew, if I told you, which you wouldn't know this in this case, but if I told you that you were taking say Michael Penix at 23, but nobody else was going to pick them until 37, that's how the league felt about him. Would you still be okay with it? And I go a little bit back and forth here because, well, I do think that the odds are not crazy different between the, uh, first and the, uh, fifth or sixth quarterback being good.

And we've seen in draft classes before, sorry, trying to hide that on the screen. Uh, we've seen it before where the fifth quarterback is better than the first quarterback but you know if you're talking about the difference in prospects between someone who belongs in the top five versus someone who belongs in the 30s that is a pretty big gap uh a top five draft pick has a pretty good shot to be the best quarterback even if he is the fourth because you're still talking about not a huge difference between even number one and the fourth quarterback, only five spots. So is it worth it to do it? And I am very much back and forth on this because if Kevin O'Connell tells you by requiring this trade up to get JJ McCarthy, that that is his guy. He is all in on

McCarthy, which if you're going to make this trade, that means that that is the case. Then how could we say, no, man, no, sorry. You don't know what you're talking about. KOC. Sorry, pal, get out of here. Draft value, right? That would be hard to say to Kevin O'Connell. At the same time, you are giving up multiple pieces in first round picks to build your roster with in order to get a quarterback that has still a lot of questions about him in his future and what he is going to become. So is this, from Mel Kuyper, is this a silly quarterback take alert? Is that what we're getting from Mel Kuyper? Is this a smokescreen? My thing's reacting a little slower than I'm clicking here.

Is it a smokescreen or nah? Or does this even qualify as our rumor of the day potentially that, uh, the Vikings would do this for JJ McCarthy. And I think before I get to your comments, I should go to my trade up meter. That seems to change on a daily basis, uh, going back and forth between whether the Vikings trade up or not. And I've decided recently that what Mel Kiper is saying here is something that I'm not fully buying into that you have to trade up to number five to get

McCarthy. And my logic here is that even though Denver and the Raiders both want quarterbacks, they don't have enough to entice the top teams to trade back that far with them. You'd be talking about if you're looking at Arizona or the Chargers going all the way back to 12, all the way back to 13, and they don't have enough to offer that. And so what the Vikings would be doing if they tried to wait until number 11 is they would be playing a game of chicken here saying, you know what? We don't believe you chargers. We don't believe you Cardinals. We don't think that you have the quality of offer from these other teams and we're calling your bluff. And they would also be calling the bluff of the New York giants in this scenario as well. And saying New York giants,

you can't draft a quarterback because you're going to get fired. So you need a good wide receiver to help Daniel Jones. So my trade up meter is still pretty high that it's going to happen. And Mel wrote in his write up the same thing we've thought about for weeks, which is you don't acquire number 23 unless you think that you're going to need it to move up in this draft. So it has to be greater than 50%. Yet I have moved a little farther away recently, and I only want to go 58% that the Vikings are going to make a big trade up. So give me yours in the chat. I'm going to circle all the way back to the beginning of the chat because you guys started commenting even

before the show here on what you think. You jumped the gun. I had it as kind of a tease in the headline. Yeah, we're going to reveal what Mel Kiper had to say and you guys already read it. So we started reacting already. So I'll answer any of your questions, get your reactions, and we can go forward and have a good time from there. But just to circle back to my opinion on this before I get to the chat, I think it's a lot. A lot to give up for a quarterback that you're doing tons of work to try to project. And the answers aren't right there in front of you. You are trading a ton to guess what JJ McCarthy will be and how he'll fit in. And you're really banking on this coach ability. You're banking on this

personality, this football IQ, this winner in college who was playing on this stacked team, and you're banking on him refining some of the things that might be difficult to refine, like his accuracy, like the touch on the football. Consistency is even part of it as well throughout his college season. you are really having to do a lot of guessing to give up that much draft capital. At the same time, if they do it, that means they are 100% in love with McCarthy and you should just go for it. And what Mel Kiper wrote, I agree with. He said that he has McCarthy on his big board, something like number 16. And that's not that far off for a quarterback. It's not like he has him number 47.

And his point is, if you put this quarterback in this position, that he's going to be worth more than he would be for potentially another team. His odds of succeeding are higher. And in that way, I agree with him. I would, in this case, if they traded everything to five and took JJ McCarthy, I would be behind the idea because they've got their guy. And if it works out, you don't apologize to anybody. You say, let's go. And you use all the cap space you can use and try to make a big trade for somebody on defense and just keep improving the roster through free agency. It's going to be a little harder though, if you give up that much,

I would kind of reluctantly say, all right, that's probably a good move. If you're going to get your guy, then go get them, do what you need to do. And I'll just buy into Kevin O'Connell's quarterback tour, where he sat down with all these guys, took them out on the field, got on the whiteboard, and I'll just buy into the idea that he was very impressed by JJ McCarthy and thinks that he could be their franchise quarterback. So I would be okay with it, borderline good with it, but also nervous about how much they had to give up. That's where I would stand on it. I think some of you are going to love it,

and some of you are going to maybe not love it so much. Let's start off with Caleb. Says, thoughts on Merrill Hodge's take on May. Seems extreme. I think May has a better career than Williams if he goes to Minnesota. May is the number one quarterback hot take. Uh, I will not put across the bottom of the screen that that is a ridiculous, uh, opinion, Caleb, that if he went to Minnesota, that he could end up being better than Caleb Williams. Merrill Hodge was on ESPN a while ago and was quite a big personality, but the guy sure knows how to use a

popular quarterback to get himself back in the news cycle, right? He's been going on every show that he can get on to say that this quarterback's no good. I don't know. What am I supposed to do with that information? There's a range of opinions on Drake may, but I don't think that the range is actually that wide. There's a couple of people who are on television, who go on social media or go on shows and are saying that the top quarterback prospect may or second best prospect is no good. And that will get you attention. You're asking me about it. So it becomes notable. If you Google search Merrill Hodge, every single thing is either this guy hated Manziel. Now he hates someone else. And this is the same thing with Chris Sims, where some of these guys,

they know how to make a headline with a hot take about a quarterback, but does that mean that it's going to come true? No, it doesn't. 98% of the draft analysis universe has Drake May as a top quarterback and maybe they'll be wrong. I don't know. But one guy who, I don't know how dialed in is he to college football? Maybe he is, but I mean, with, with, you know, Merrill Hodge, he loved Zach Wilson. He hated Johnny Manziel. Now he hates Drake May. He's just all of us. And I respect that he's got an opinion, but it doesn't mean anything. It doesn't, I don't sit here and go, whoa, Merrill Hodge doesn't like a quarterback that I like. Oh, I better change my opinion.

Merrill Hodge. I don't know. Good, good for him though. Found a way to get back in the news cycle. Much respect for that. We're always about engagement too, I guess, but I usually don't try to go intentionally away from the mainstream to get more engagement, but he did and it worked out that's all i can really say is one person's opinion is just one person's opinion other people i've seen have him as qb1 i don't know just the way i look at drake may is i could see kevin o'connell chiseling him into being one of the best quarterbacks in the nfl given the right situation the system, because that's the kind of tools he has. And I am totally good with that. Jason says a report came out today saying that Jane Daniels had a bad visit with Washington and he does not want to go there. That really, that happened

that he had a bad visit with what I've never heard of someone having a bad visit. That's really interesting. I wonder where that came from. Was that a real thing or was that like, you know, there's a Twitter account called something like NFC North Report and it gets people all the time. It's a fake parody. So I guess you have to let me know if that was a real report that he had a bad visit.

It doesn't want to go there. Washington should be turning it around, right? With where they were at as a franchise years ago, not that many years ago for a long time with Daniel Snyder. If he doesn't want to go there and had a bad visit, that wouldn't surprise me that they were going to draft Drake May anyway. I've always wondered if what the Vikings are waiting for is to find out whether the Washington commanders are going to take Drake May or Jaden Daniels to make their decision. That's, that's the way that, uh, I've always thought of this about this trade up situation is the first plan is to trade for Drake may that this is just, you know, we're trying to play investigators here

and put on our, whatever, what do you call it? Like, um, who is the guy Sherlock Holmes? We're all trying to be draft Sherlock Holmes and figure out what the Vikings are thinking by putting together the pieces. And the best I can do right now, which could very well be wrong in two weeks, is that they would want to wait to find out who Washington takes before they make their decision whether to go all in to trade up. And then if it's not the guy that they want is available at number three, then they're going to look at number four and five and potentially do what Mel Kiper is suggesting and go after JJ McCarthy. Or, uh, I'm just going to try to ride this hot take.

They stick at 11 and either take McCarthy there because he makes it there, or they end up taking Michael Penix there or Bo Nix. So I don't know. Uh, I mean, that's a strange report though. I can't remember anything that I've heard of that was like that with somebody having a bad visit. I still, I, sometimes the first answer is the right answer when it comes to the draft. And the first answer from day one of last season after Drake Mays, great, you know, 2022 was that it was going to be Williams and May

locked in and Daniels made it interesting. I still would not be that surprised if it was still Caleb Williams, Drake May, just how we thought all along. And we all went, ah, you know, we made up all these scenarios and everything else, and he's still a Washington commander, but then, you then, would the Vikings actually like Jaden Daniels? And I don't think that I've spent enough time on that situation with Daniels. I've looked at it as less of a great fit for Kevin O'Connell, but also Jaden Daniels is really awesome at football and had crazy numbers.

And if you look at his efficiency, this isn't just the guy who played with some great receivers. This is a guy who put up yards per attempt and yards per rush that were better than anybody in years. Both of those, not both together, both yards per attempt and yards per rush. He was averaging three more yards per run than Lamar Jackson was. So he's pretty special too. Uh, it's hard to know though, would they do it for him? Because I think he does have more to

be concerned about than, uh, Drake may, uh, Alex says I will have sticker shock at the, at first, if three firsts are given up for JJ, but I'll get over it quickly. That really depends on how he looks at training camp, I guess. And preseason, man, when was the last time we had fun preseason games? I just, that just came into my mind, but if JJ McCarthy's playing, we're going to have fun preseason games. Yes. That is how I feel. I will have trepidation is the way that I would put it a good enough team because you have the pieces in place already at a lot of the key spots, and you think that Brian Flores is drafting and developing and all that is good enough to get you to having a top-notch defense, then you're not going to really care that much that you gave up an extra first round draft pick from the

following season for JJ McCarthy. The real nightmare scenario would be if you have a very bad season next year, which I can't see. I can't see three wins, four wins, but you never do know if it went completely sideways. And then we're talking about giving to, you know, the chargers, a top five pick or something. There is that fear when you're giving up that extra first, I would project it 12, 14th, 16th, somewhere in that ballpark. And if that's really the price is number 23 and number 16 for next year, it's not that much because you're swapping. And I've probably said three firsts so many times that I haven't really stopped myself to say, well, wait a minute. It's really two additional firsts. And if they're 23 and 14 or 16, is it that bad bad if you find the quarterback that you need uh horse feathers maybe trade 2025

for may i am assuming that what mel kuiper was thinking here and in his mock he has one two three he's got drake may going to new england he's got daniels going to washington my assumption is what mel is thinking is those teams are just not giving up those quarterbacks. They are going out in public and saying, Hey, maybe, maybe we'll trade with you. And they're not actually considering it. I have thought that about number four as well, because Marvin Harrison juniors do not come around that often. This is a Julio Jones caliber prospect.

They're going to want him at number four. They may put up the big neon signs as they said, yeah, call us and try to trade with us, but you're going to have to top what they believe they're going to get for an elite prospect. That is one of the best wide receiver prospects we've seen in some time. So I've kind of been on this. I don't know if Arizona really wants to move out of it. That's why the chargers make more sense to me as number five. And what Mel's thrown out there is very realistic that the Vikings would do it. Gunner four, four, seven, far too steep for number five. I understand that opinion. What it would really come down to is think of it this way. What is the gap between McCarthy, Nixon, Pennix in the mind

of Kevin O'Connell in the mind of Mel Kiper? The gap is very big because Mel Kiper does not think that Bo Nix or Michael Penix will be first round draft picks. He has them going in the early second round. So in his mind, you have to go up to make sure you get quarterback number four, because if you don't, you are reaching big time on those quarterbacks that are more of second round draft picks. Now that's how he looks at it. We might look at it a little different as a Pennix enjoyer. I guess you could call me as, as a buyer inner, uh, to Michael Pennix. I think Michael Pennix at 23 versus McCarthy and all these other draft picks, but that's because I don't personally think that there's this huge gap between those two.

If Kevin O'Connell does, if he goes out and he has dinner with Michael Penix and he does all the stuff and their medical team looks at his knees and they kind of go, I don't know, he's more of a Hendon hooker. He's more of a third round draft pick. Then, okay, McCarthy is the last quarterback you can get in the first round who's worth it to us. Well, then they have to go for it. Then they have no choice, but to go for it. If that's the assessment that they come away with, uh, in, uh, is that Mel Kiper is correct. If he agrees with the Vikings or the bike, sorry, I should put it the other way. The Vikings agree with Mel Kiper. If that is the case, then you really don't have any other choice because you can't walk away from

this first round going, Hey, you know, Hey, look, we got a defensive tackle and a cornerback every once in a while. I'll get that email. Okay. What if they just got a couple of defensive players rolled with Sam Darnold? I look, yeah, that's a hard one to talk me into when a guy has a one-to-one touchdown to interception ratio. I don't care how bad the New York Jets and Carolina Panthers were. That's not a bet I want to make. And I don't want to make the Spencer Rattler bet. There's also Spencer Rattler people that really, really think that Spencer Rattler could be a franchise quarterback. And that's great. And through the years, I've been intrigued by him because he does throw the football very nicely,

but that's not who you're trying to come away with. And I was talking to Kevin Seifert. I forget where maybe the owner's meetings and talking about the doomsday scenario, if the Vikings were to be left out of the party and what that would be like, just a total catastrophe if they got left out of the party. So if you compare those two scenarios, in scenario one, you give up a little too much for JJ McCarthy. In scenario two, you just don't draft a quarterback until the fourth round. I will gladly give up that extra first round pick to make sure that I'm getting that extra quarterback. What about Bob says if McCarthy hits, then it's worth it. If he's a bust or a backup, then it's not, we won't know for a while. I'm a practical guy. I need to be scared. It's not

our jobs on the line. Um, I assume you mean you don't need to be scared. So of course, I mean, that's how everything works though, right? Is even if you draft Michael Penix, this actually might be another way to look at it though. Because if you draft Michael Penix at 23, you're going to feel very practical. As you said, you'll feel like very efficient guy. We did a good job. We got our quarterback at number 23. Look at us. If he's not good, then you look foolish for not trading up. This always works that way, right? No matter what, if it doesn't work, you're going to get second guess. So you should really just go with what you want to go with regardless and regardless of

the price, because if it doesn't work out, you are going to lose your job. It will be a catastrophe no matter what you should do, whatever it takes to get the person you believe in most. And if that's an additional first round pick from next year, then so be it. You already have Jefferson and Derisaw and Addison on your team. You already have O'Neill still in his prime and on defense picked up a couple of key players here. Yeah. I think everyone would prefer to not have to do that, but it just might be the price to pay play poker because otherwise the Los Angeles chargers could say, well, we'll just take Joe Alt there. We'll just take Malik neighbors and pair them with Justin Herbert. We don't have to do this. That's the part that makes

it most realistic that they have to give up that additional first. I think all of us have been sitting here throughout this time going, well, you know, if you only gave up the 23, then that would be good. And the, you know, for McCarthy and maybe for may you give up one more, if we're all living in reality, more likely than not, if you're the chargers, you're not doing this just for number 23, you're only giving up that top five pick because hall of famers get picked in the top five. So that's where you want to be. If you're giving up one of the best players in the entire draft to slide down, you're going to want to make sure that you are compensated.

If we're putting ourselves in the Chargers shoes, they're trying to get elite players to put around Justin Herbert. So you would have to offer them quite a bit to get them to shuffle out of that and go back to number 11. That might just be the world we live in. And if they do it, then they do it. And now we're all in on JJ McCarthy. Like that's, that's how it would end up having to be for the Vikings as far as their mentality. Like, well, you know what? Uh, I've made the housing comparison before where I watch house hunters a lot. And sometimes they'll say our budget is strict at 425,000.

And then they walk into their house that they really want. And it's got everything. It's got the big white kitchen that they all talk about. And it's got the perfect flooring and the sliding door. And they say, all right, we'll go up to 475. That feels like what the Vikings are probably dealing with here. I'm a twerk, says someone talked me into the need to actually trade up. I feel like someone falls to us at number 11. If O'Connell is a player's coach and QB guru, he should be able to make it work. So this is a reasonable way to think about it. If, if they had the quarterbacks closely evaluated. So let's say that they've done this whole thing and they go out and they meet Michael Penix. They love him. They think he is a savant. They look at his knees. They go air,

air. Oh, those knees are good. We're all set. No problems here. They watched him run the 40. They're impressed. They look at his big giant mitts throwing the football and they go, you know, we, we, we really want McCarthy, but if this guy ends up as our guy, then we're okay with it. If that's what they have, as far as their evaluations, let's say that they have may is their number one choice. They know they can't get them. McCarthy's their number two choice, but it costs a lot. And right behind him is Pennix just by a shade right behind him. Then they can do what you're talking about, which is sit and say, all right, look, we're going to dare the league to take JJ McCarthy in the top

five. We're going to dare the Broncos to put together a good enough package. We're going to dare the giants to do it. We're going to dare the Raiders to try to jump up and we're just going to sit and see if he drops to 11. And if he doesn't, we've got our backup plan. We've got our guy that we think can be a franchise quarterback. They could play it that way, but only if they have a small gap between qb4 and qb5 if they have a big gap between qb4 and qb5 then you have to do it you really just don't have any other choice and that's how i feel about this mock is what mel kuyper is saying mel kuyper is coming in with the big old man hammer and he's slamming it down and he's saying guys stop playing

in fantasy land on that purple insider podcast be real if you're getting up to number five you're giving up the house i think that's what mel is trying to tell us maybe he's right jason says uh have to have may or daniels anything else will be a failure. Goal is to win the Superbowl draft. Any other quarterback and KOC will be fired in two years. That right there is a very aggressive take. Is that a silly quarterback take alert? I think, I think Jason, you're, you're pushing the edge there of a silly quarterback take alert because now even though I have been as you guys all know on the skeptical side of JJ McCarthy I also fully believe in another guy named Justin Jefferson and what this offense can do for a quarterback if they develop properly if they can lead if they

can throw the ball to the right place if they can scramble on fourth down and eight, when a defensive tackle breaks through the offensive line, not that that's ever happened. Uh, but yeah, I mean, JJ McCarthy has the talent to be a guy and it has since high school, he's been somebody who was on the radar since high school as someone who could be a top NFL prospect. And he's come along and he is improving and developing and somebody that you could see getting better and better. And by all reports takes football extremely seriously and all that sort of stuff and wants to be, you know, a great quarterback. And if that's what he wants and he can work with Kevin O'Connell, then he's got a chance to be really good. Because one thing that we have to keep in mind is that other quarterbacks who have not been amazing

have won a lot of football games, despite the fact that they're not Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen, even CJ Stroud, because they have a great team around them. And you don't even have to look all that far to find recent examples of that. You can look to the Super Bowl right now. Last year, you could look to the Super Bowl and say that Brock Purdy is a pretty good quarterback. I respect Brock Purdy more than I think some of the analysis world does. I also know that Brock Purdy on a lot of teams does not take them to the super bowl. And even Jalen Hurts, who I thought the Vikings should pick back in 2020. I'm a big, big Jalen Hurts fan in that draft.

Sort of the similar way that I feel about Pennix now, where I kept reading, nobody likes him and he's going to drop. Like, I mean, I like that guy. And he dropped. So everybody's right. He was going to drop. And yet he turned out to be a good quarterback, but with a supporting cast that was right. He was going to drop. And yet he turned out to be a good quarterback, but with a supporting cast that was phenomenal. And again, we all recognize that if you take Jalen Hurts and you

put them on the New York jets, then he does not become this version of Jalen Hurts. And what the Vikings have set themselves up for is they can be the team where everybody says, well, your quarterback's not that good. It's just the team around him. And you go, great. That's awesome. Perfect. We'll take it. That's what, that's what you're trying to be in position for. And that might be what happens if it's JJ McCarthy is he'll throw a bunch of touchdowns to Justin Jefferson. And people will say, well, you know, I'm McCarthy. He's not that good. He doesn't have this. He doesn't have that. And you'll say, who cares because he's got a great team around him. That's what you're trying to do. I only look at this.

You'll hear people talk about it as if you have to find John Elway or just don't get anything at all. But if that was the only way to win, then I would agree that you should only try to get one of those top three guys. But that just is not how the league works, especially not in the NFC recently, where we've seen a lot of good quarterbacks. My biggest comparison for JJ McCarthy for what current quarterback he could be is Dak Prescott, where he is not perfectly accurate all the time. He is not the biggest guy. Dak Prescott did run more early in his career. I think McCarthy will do that, but he isn't going to be Lamar Jackson or a true difference maker on the ground, but he can scramble. He can make a play and he's very,

very smart, right? That's Dak Prescott's biggest thing is that he is really, really smart at the line of scrimmage makes a lot of adjustments. I wish he would stop doing that thing where he said, here we go or whatever. Uh, but either way, that's why he succeeds. He doesn't have a perfect arm. It's he's not a monster physically, but he succeeds because he gets the ball to the right place. He scrambles every once in a while to make a play. He can roll out and throw very well, just like JJ McCarthy. If that's what you land, you have a chance to compete for a Super Bowl, even if he is not the best technical quarterback in the NFC.

I mean, that's what makes it justifiable to me, what Mel Kiper is proposing here.