Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Mike Renner breaks down Jordan Love and Manny Hill ranks Vikings-Packers games

Episode Date: October 27, 2023

Matthew Coller talks with NFL Draft expert Mike Renner about Jordan Love and the next QB draft class and then dives deep with Manny Hill into the history of Vikings-Packers in recent years and what it's like without Aaron Rodgers Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here and joining me now with the messenger, formerly of Pro Football Focus, and has just launched a podcast called Renner Ranks. Mike Renner, it's not as catchy as the old podcast names with Austin Gale, Mike, but you have now entered my sphere of the iTunesunes ranks so we got you know the sumer sports show the pff nfl show i'm always listening to zach low and now you have slid in there into my running rotation as well what is going on man congratulations on all the career moves

thank you not much going on i mean actually lots going on all that's going on it's been a whirlwind doing a bunch of different stuff and uh the pods actually a lot of fun it's kind of just every day it's like 20 to 30 minutes talk about whatever i feel like rank whatever i feel like and sometimes it's not it's like it's called rankings but it's not really like some shows don't actually rank anything of value but that's the beauty of it we just talk about anything i want to talk about football related it doesn't have to be necessarily current events it's just high level stuff that you would uh you know talk about at the water cooler with your buddies all right so i want you to rank all-time backup quarterbacks for the uh packers uh we'll start no i mean hassle actually how about this yeah well hassle picks a good one i mean kurt warner technically a backup uh mark brunel um scott tolzine in that order uh oh that's right gosh there was so many of

them uh but how about this uh i got two main topics i want to discuss with you i'll let you rank them and then we can go whichever way you like the vikings are playing the packers and you always pay very close attention to the green bay packers and their present and future is interesting and also we've got a quarterback draft class that i think a lot of vikings fans are keeping an eye on so which would you rather discuss oof let's go packers first let me get that out the way it's not really ranking them but that one just i need to get it over with i can't be i can't i can't be thinking about the packers all while i'm trying to rank these prospects all right so well there's an easy place to begin here and that would be your opinion on jordan love i'll tell you from

mine i can't decide whether there's going to be a next level to that and if he gets some receivers and offensive linemen, then it could actually be quite good. Or if we're talking about like a drew lock here where the guy has enough juice to be an NFL quarterback, but also makes far too many mistakes to be an every single game, NFL quarterback. What am I looking at?

I think he's a step above drew lock, a step below Matt Stafford on that kind of continuum that I think would be strong-armed quarterbacks in that sort of mold that are going to throw picks. I don't think you're ever going to take the picks out of Jordan Locke. He's never going to become Aaron Rodgers from a turnover perspective. But he attacks down the football field. I think he takes relatively good chances when he does for the most field. I think he takes relatively good chances when he does for the most part. I think his pocket presence is really good. I think he does avoid sacks. I think he can play behind a poor to average offensive line and not go in the tank like

Sam Howell or some of the quarterbacks who are. Drew Locke behind a bad office line was a disaster. So I think a step above that from those perspectives. I do think they're running into a spot where it's difficult to evaluate him with how just poor the receiver play has been and inconsistent more probably accurately receiver play has been just with, you know, every guy's either first or second year that he's thrown into. And so the inexperience has shown week in and week out and you see it with just how like even in certain games even this last week it's the whole offense couldn't do anything the first half and then all of a sudden second half back-to-back drives that are awesome it's just that's to me is it's just you have too many guys who are too inconsistent right now to really, I don't want to say properly evaluate Love.

I think we can evaluate the hand he's dealt and say that it hasn't been a disaster, but it hasn't been the second coming of Aaron Rodgers or Brett Favre in this offense. So I think obviously they're going to give him the rest this year. They're going to give him next year with a contract they have, or at least he'll be on the roster next year. But I think right now, early returns kind of put him as a mid, probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 18 to 24 in the NFL at the quarterback position, which is a starter. I think he's an NFL caliber starter. I just do wonder if there is a next step in him when,

like you mentioned, there does get more talent because it stands right now. There's just too many bad plays on tape and too many inaccurate throws on tape to really think he can be that guy, that franchise guy at quarterback. And you know, you being former PFF and me being an enjoyer of PFF, we're going to look at those advanced numbers first. But, you know, you're only averaging six and a half yards per pass attempt.

Well, also trying to with an average depth of target push downfield. That means it's not working very well. The one thing I the one thing I think about with him is and I think about all the time in general with quarterbacks, is easy answers. Like how many easy answers does Brock Purdy have or does Jalen Hurts have when you're talking about the complete roster? And they are far away from that. I mean, you mentioned the wide receivers. They just decided over the last few years, like, no, we're not going to go out and get like a Jacoby Myers or someone, even someone who could just play sort of, we're going to rest it entirely on dudes that we don't know if they can play or not. And I think that's really hard as a starting quarterback. But I also, when I see him have

chances to win games and literally flush them down the toilet with horrendous decisions, that's not Matt Lafleur's fall. That's the receiver's fall like that's a guy just kind of freaking out a little bit there which happens a lot and I always have heard from quarterbacks who do this hey if he just stops throwing 30 interceptions Jameis Winston's great hey if Sam Darnold just stops getting strip sacked and throwing picks he'll be totally fine they usually don't though unless it's unless we're going back way back to when there was a lot of interceptions early in guy's career but normally recently if you're a turnover guy if you're a sack guy if you're an interception guy that thing tends to continue no i 100 agree

with that and truthfully though i'm not sure it's i'm not sure it's necessarily ugly decisions though that he's been making that have been these turnovers. Now, some of them he's just missed guys like right behind the line of scrimmage, right over the middle of field. Those probably been as ugliest, but it's more just like he floats balls down the football fields and

he'll lose like the, the last, the game ending picks were just like way under thrown football. So those were balls that should have been 10 yards farther on both of them. And I think that's the more worrisome thing is that his distance control down the football field has been so spotty. For a guy with an arm that should be able to, you know, stronger arm, don't have to put as much juice on it. Like you should be more accurate down the football field.

That's why those things kind of, that's why NFL Cup, it's a guy's stronger arms. But I do also think like the problem that they've had is that there's not there's not even like one veteran in the receiving core to be like, Hey, don't make these mistakes. Like when you're going through practice telling guys that it's not just the wide receivers coach, they're telling guys like, you need someone in there to give you some tips, some tricks, how to do these things at the NFL level. There's zero. There's not a guy past year two in this receiving core.

And so there's no one, they're literally all trying to figure it out, all trying to just keep their heads above water. And so whoever thought that was a good strategy to not bring in a single veteran, I think they were sadly mistaken. I can't say that we should declare it to be he's not good or it's over. And we always like to do that i mean that's the maybe one of the fun parts as we go i'm planting my flag with this guy and sometimes you're a genius

and sometimes you're dope uh but with him uh like it's harder because he was sitting on the bench for so long and you feel like it should have looked better from like that development but then i also remember that the green bay packers once upon a time drafted brian braum in the second round because they weren't entirely sure that aaron rogers is the guy and you go i don't know so what what should they do here i mean because i think they have to give it time but they also have to like start going on the future if he's not going to be that person you're you're very much in like daniel jones land of last year where they're going each week is he the guy is he not the guy and then if you sign that contract because he has a few

good games you can end up having it blow up in your face i think it very much depends on where they end up right so if you go if they get it they end up like a top six, top seven pick, it would mean he's not played well, right? You don't end up with a roster that, you know, it's not good by any means, especially on the offensive side of the ball, but the defense is good enough that even with, you know, Joe Barry, it's DC, they're still good enough that they should not end up with a top six pick if your quarterback's going to be your guy, right?

So if they end up with that you make a play you have enough you got the trade capital this year from that you got from the jets the second rounder you make a play to try to get up to the spot because i think drake may caleb williams will be worth it now might have to trade with the bears and so if that's the case they're not going to get one of those guys but hopefully the cardinals lose some more games here they can trade with the cardinals that would that would be your ideal scenario um if everything does go wrong but i think more likely than not they're going to end up in like the 10 to 13 to 14 range and at that point you're not getting to play to make up all the way to the top two the quarterbacks after those top two i like

but i don't know if i like them so much that you're going to bat for them with jordan love still under contract for next year i think it's guaranteed or semi-guaranteed that they're not cutting them with like a $20 million cap it or something like that. So, and it's a good enough draft class that I think there will be like close to blue chip caliber players out into the 10 to 12 range. It's just, it's a very good, very top heavy, not top heavy, but just like there's a lot of top end talent in this draft class. So at that point I think they almost have to just keep going business as usual thinking Jordan loves the guy until proven otherwise because Sally then her spot where it's just difficult to evaluate him

properly right now and you're almost too good of a roster with with more cap space coming after this Aaron Rodgers thing where this was always going to be a bad year when you trade away and take all that cap hit this year. So I don't know. We'll see. It's, it's still, you know, what do we got 10 games left to evaluate them? We shall see. I think about all the quarterbacks that we've thought we've known exactly what we were looking at. And then it turned out that we were wrong. And my example of this used to kind of be Ryan Tannehill, but he's gotten old and can't play anymore.

But Ryan Tannehill in 2016, 18 could not have looked worse. I mean, it just looked like a complete joke. And then he goes to Tennessee. He's not even the starter and turns out to lead them to winning the entire conference. And maybe they're an interception or two away or something from going deep into the playoffs that year. So it's, it's such a tricky thing for, I think,

for an organization. And I wouldn't be shocked if the Packers did the, the middle round hedge where it was like, well, we're going to draft a guy in the third and see if that guy can push him or something. And then, you know, you kind of get caught in that never, never land. The rest of the Packers roster is interesting though, to me, because they have enough talent on defense where it should be better. This is year 18 of us saying that in a row. And, you know, Aaron Jones is getting older. A.J. Dillon is just not any good. I'm not sure he ever was, but he's definitely not.

Now the offensive line isn't what it once was like this roster seems to kind of be pretty brittle in comparison to what it was just a couple years ago when rogers is winning mvp but they also had a lot more pieces they seem to be to me the ultimate franchise that could end up getting stuck in the middle which is very odd to say about a green bay packers team that's never been that it is true though i mean because of what you mentioned there they're so they're about to be which is very odd to say about a Green Bay Packers team that's never been that. It is true, though. I mean, because of what you mentioned there, they're about to be so young on offense. I mean, they are so young on offense, but there's no getting older.

They're all going to be on their rookie contracts for the next two or three years. They're wide receivers. A lot of their starting offense alignment right now. There's no veterans coming in, I would not imagine. On the defensive side of the ball, they're just top-heavy. they have a lot of guys that are about to get are getting paid about to get paid a lot of young guys they've drafted that are still big tbds so there's a good chance that they do end up just going in that seven to nine win range for the foreseeable future because if they're not willing to, you know, if they do end up like resigning Rashawn Gary, if they do kind of like try to just keep this intact,

you're just not close enough. Right. You're just not talented enough right now to, to do that. What about on the, on the Viking side of this Jordan Addison, obviously a home run of a pick for Kweisi Adafo-Mensa, which he needed after the 2022 draft. That's not decided yet. Andrew Booth Jr. has started to play. Caleb Evans is starting.

The right guard, Ed Ingram, has shown improvement over the last year as offensive linemen often take time to do, or at least over the last, I'd say, three, four weeks. Specifically, he's been a little better. But everything for Kweisi Adafo-Mensah and his success or failure is going to come down to the next decision at quarterback. But now there's like this lingering, like hovering, wait, is Kirk going to end up coming back here because they're going to make the argument? Oh, we got Jefferson. We got Addison. We can't have a rookie in there. We got to have a veteran. And then we just go round and round forever.

Like, what do you make of where the Vikings stand with Kweisi Adafo-Mensah? Yeah, the good news is, like, I think from a decision-making standpoint, he knows not to end up in the middle, right? Like, I think that's not where he wants to be. And so I think a lot of the roster moves last year were forward-thinking over the lot of the roster moves last year were forward thinking over the course of the off season, knowing that 2023 is not your Super Bowl year. I think that that was the

knowledge of what they went through this past off season and that it's kind of he's going to build up the team through his process. And that's if the process is sound and obviously identify talent well enough, and then you'll be there. But the Cousins thing is interesting because he's going to play them out of what everyone's saying, you know, the top three pick. I know Vikings fans clamoring for it after the start they have, but he's going to play them out of that because he's not, you know,

because he is in the 12 to 14 range, 10 to 12 range among NFL quarterbacks. When you have a guy that's that good, you still have a floor, and that's what, you know, the trap that a lot of GMs fall into. But I do think that he means a lot more right now to other teams around the NFL that don't have those quarterbacks that are close enough to win, whether it's the Jets or teams in that mold

that just are that quarterback away. I just don't think the just are that quarterback away. I just don't think the Vikings are that quarterback away. So it wouldn't surprise me at all. I do think they will move on Kirk Cousins and say that this is, what is he going to be, 36 next year? I don't foresee him aging as gracefully as guys who are much more physically gifted like Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady. He probably is going to age more closely to like a Matt Ryan, who by 38 was toast, right?

So I do think it's better to be early on those than late on those sort of things. And so I bet Questy is going to see that all. And I would bet he moves on and tries to just build this roster in what he thinks is the right way to build the roster. And I think that if they were ever going to buy fully into Kirk Cousins, it would have been after last year, where his play, especially at the end of games, clutch situations, was nothing short of fantastic. He had the big win against the Bills.

So it's like when you beat San Francisco, this is not the only big game kirk cousins has ever won it's just that it's not quite enough and that is a really um as we've really proven hard place to be as a franchise because you can guarantee yourself competitiveness and there's so many times where they've talked themselves into you know what if we just sign michael pierce and stop the run a little bit better, then we can really be good. But then a couple of things go sideways and you end up here. And it's the same thing with the beginning of this season. They have a tough schedule to start. They get a couple of fumbles and you're three and four. And it's not, of course, not all his fault, but it's like the reality of

how strong your team can get. And you mentioned a floor, but there's also always a ceiling. And I think Kwesi Adafo-Mensah understands not to ride this roller coaster of, oh, well, I just watched Kirk play good last week. He put up 19 points or whatever against the bears. So, you know, that, that whole thing, here's something that keeps coming up though. How strong is this quarterback class supposed to be? Because some people were saying like, oh, there's going to be like nine first round draft picks. It's going to be history, baby. Then we get halfway through the season. They go, well, you know, maybe, maybe less than that.

Where, where does this class stand? So I never saw nine first rounders. And I truthfully going in this year, I saw. That was an exaggeration. That was an exaggeration. I know, but I thought, I actually think the class has like gotten better over the course of this season impressed me more as he's gone because i thought

there were two guys which drake made north carolina caleb williams usc i think they're top of the draft guys one two i'd be surprised they don't go one two at this point uh whatever order it's going to be decided about who has those picks but but those guys would go one, two. And then after that, I didn't necessarily see a guy that was slammed on first rounder. I think there are a few guys now. I'll say J.J. McCarthy from Michigan, Michael Penix Jr. from Washington, Bo Nix from Oregon, Shadur Sanders from Colorado, even though I think he's going to come back. I doubt he goes out this year. I think Deion even says he's coming back.

But those four, having watched them, would not surprise me whatsoever if they end up as first rounders and i think very possible all very physically gifted all playing some lights out football right now like there's so there are options now i still don't go to bat if any of those guys so if there were if caleb may drake Drake Williams didn't exist, I'd probably be saying there's not a number one pick at quarterback in this draft class. But that doesn't mean that there's not guys worth taking a chance on. So I've come around that I think there's, like I said, those four guys that are somewhere, if you've taken them like 15th in the first round i'm not gonna bad night i think that's fairly reasonable based off of what we've seen them do uh this season and obviously some past seasons what they have from a talent perspective so that's kind of how i see the class is that there's there's probably like six guys who if you think back two years ago the kenny pickett

draft that they would all been the quarterback one in that class but you know they're probably only two guys that i see as like real franchise quarterbacks we're a long way away from draft season so i we we don't have to try to whittle each down to how the vikings would or would not like them but i'm intrigued by kind of all these guys for different reasons i think shadur sanders accuracy is just kind of all these guys for different reasons. I think Shadur Sanders accuracy is just kind of off the charts. I mean, for us olds reminds me of watching like Phillip rivers in college where he completed something like 75% of his passes and just everything was on point. A Bo Nixon and Michael panics a little bit on the older side.

Maybe the upside is a little bit less, but what I keep coming back to with a lot of these guys and i i have a tough time figuring out what jj mccarthy is maybe you can tell me they're playing no they're playing nobody and like they played the gophers when i watched to play the gophers i did not go that is a first round quarterback but then they put up like 52 points so because i i think that's a little bit um a little bit difficult to figure out and then quinn ewers maybe in here somewhere as well like how do you kind of sort out between these second tier guys yeah i honestly think it's going to sort itself out in time and i think like

they're going to not declare if they're not going to be you know in that top of that second tier so quinn ewers i think i think he's injured too, or had something. They just got hurt this past week, I want to say. But he, like, I just think he's been too inconsistent to me. And, you know, not had a ton of playing experience to really go to bat for him as like a first round right now. Super talented. Lots of like about him, but as a guy that just like, you know, probably 15 years ago, you don't even like think about that guy declaring, right.

It's, it's really only semi recent phenomena that if you're showing anything as a junior, you come out, like usually it's guys were, it was rare to come out early. You had to be the guy, you know, top five pick to necessarily come out early. So he was a guy who probably wouldn't have come out uh prior and i honestly probably don't think he comes out this year because there's just too many there's too much of a log jam and obviously that injury is going to have a hard time playing his way up board so um and like i said it'll probably shake itself out that the guys who don't necessarily finish the season strong they see the rest of the class

and they have to come back but pennixix, Bo Nix are out of eligibility. Those guys have to, those guys have to go to the NFL draft after five and six years, respectively. So, or Pennix six, Bo Nix five. So those guys,

I think will be, if I had to bet right now, I'd bet both end up first rounders. So for those four guys have to go, we'll be first rounders after that. It's like, I think people will be looking at Knicks and Pennix and their evals and be like, do I think I'll get drafted higher than them or not?

And that'll kind of declare whether McCarthy, who you mentioned, just like, well, how do you evaluate a guy who's doing nothing and knows what every defense is calling apparently every single time he's playing them. Right. So it's just, it's, it's going to be difficult uh for those guys this season to really say i'm going to be a top 10 pick with all the other quarterbacks that just are in this class out of those guys i like panics the most um then of course he plays like a bad game last week. Just after. Yeah. Just after I watched the Oregon game.

Oh, my gosh. Right. Yeah. This guy's great. But when we try to look at how something would match up into what Kevin O'Connell wants, a guy with that type of arm talent and accuracy, when you are going to give him Jordan Addison, Justin Jefferson, two tackles that were sent from the heavens down to make sure that no edge rusher, even Nick Bosa, does not pressure the quarterback. I mean, that's a lot to get like the criticism of Penix is like, oh, he just stands in there.

No one pressures him and he throws the open receivers. And I'm like, that sounds like the Minnesota Vikings, actually, that that he could be able to do that. So I like that fit from an arm talent perspective what they have so Romo Denze doing in that offense too like it's a lot of what Justin Jefferson kind of just like the route tree and what he's running vertically down the football field uh it's just reminiscent of when what Kirk Cousins is throwing to Justin Jefferson so he really would fit in my opinion the Vikings like what they want to do very well yeah and i think the other thing is that they're they're just going to ask a lot of the quarterback and that's where

it's hard to figure out right they're they're asking kirk cousins to know a lot of stuff i've never seen kirk use a wristband before and he finally decided to go with the wristband because it was getting too complicated for him so then you're going to ask a rookie to come in and then it's a weird it's a weird timeline but it's kind of a fascinating class now you will be asked this question 150 000 times between now and the draft so i'm going to be the first if i can drake may number one any chance oh 100 i'm not 100 chance but there is 100 a chance i've actually already thrown some some cheddar on him being there one overall pick uh that was actually before the season even started and it's just because it's a pick your poison um you know not every offense coordinator it's i

think we've entered an era where people aren't like running their schemes right that it's not like just what i want to run but there's not a lot of people who necessarily want to build an offense around a guy they'd rather like run what they want to run uh and to me if you're just projecting to what has been nfl offenses for the majority of nfl history in terms of like pocket passing timing passing drake may better prospect in that regard he just i think he is like his pocket presence tremendous. He's got the better size to get over the offensive line, see the middle of the field. He works the middle of the field incredibly well. He's got a very strong arm.

He can move himself too, but he's not like he breaks pockets to keep his eyes on field and look for plays outside the pocket. And now Williams is just 6'1", 215, much more of a guy that you want on the move because he's so insanely gifted as a thrower on the move. He's probably the best thrower on the move that I've seen outside of Patrick Mahomes. And that's why you get these Patrick Mahomes comps.

But he's just, he's insane when he has to create. He's about as good as you'll see at the collegiate level ever. But there's some aspects of Lincoln Riley's offense that put the game on easy mode for him there's some he's been playing behind an offensive line that really didn't allow people to touch him until the past two weeks and then when people are touched on the past two weeks he looks about as worse as we've seen from him since his freshman year so there are things that NFL evaluators may not like or may not like necessarily want to have to fit in their offense that Caleb Williams does that Drake may maybeiams does that drake may

maybe doesn't have that worry so again it depends who has number one overall pick but i think there's definitely a chance i'm watching way more than usual when it comes to these quarterbacks because the vikings started with the record that they started and so i started uh you know i put my god my draft goggles on like all right'm going to watch some of these quarterbacks. And I was wondering if it was because I don't pay much attention, and I love people writing about the draft this time of year, but I'm just so focused on, you know, Viking stuff that I don't read a lot. And I was thinking to myself, like, am I silly for liking Drake May better right now? Because some of the Caleb Williams stuff is I love dudes who run around and

everything else. But if you're trying to go, is that a Mahomes? It's like, ah, we try, you know, it's almost like somebody who loves to shoot mid range fadeaways and

being like, is that a Kobe? Like, yeah, probably not. It's more like an Andrew Wiggins. I mean, there's a,

is that a Steph Curry? This guy shoots from half court. Probably not. There's only a couple of those guys in history. And I it's the same way and when i saw your buddy austin gale put out that stat about how horrendous he's graded under pressure i was like that's what it is he seems to make it worse not better and there's way more mistakes than what patrick mahomes had i've tended to like what what Drake may looks like as an NFL quarterback more. Yeah. So the comp that I have been working with for Caleb Williams is he's like

Jalen hurts. If you gave Jalen hurts, like an arm, like a better arm, like Jalen hurts, pretty average arm, but like, that's,

that's how they're built, built similarly. That's how they play the position, you know? And hurts has had the benefit of playing behind the league's best offense line his entire career and that obviously has probably negated some of those issues that you see on caleb williams tape and like when caleb williams does have pockets to work with it's nasty you know like it is it's he's carving dudes up so i think that if you know if you're

drafting them one overall two overall whatever and, and you're putting a guy behind what might be a shoddy offensive line, it could be ugly for Williams out the gate. You might have to do a lot of stuff to scheme around that. So I think that's why I actually do have Drake May, number one, my quarterback ranks right now. Okay, all right. We're seeing things the same way, and I'm not just trying to be a hot take artist. Okay, last thing.

This last quarterback class, I have been captivated by C.J. Stroud playing football because I still don't think his team's all that good, and yet he's looked fantastic. But everything's not an even playing field. If everybody got the same football team and the same system and the same receivers, then we would really know who was better and the same schedule. But all these things are different. How do you look at what the future is for C.J. Stroud? Unfortunately, Anthony Richardson injured and Bryce Young.

Yeah, I think Stroud's no question going to be franchise quarterback. Now, all you're like kind of debating, there's like levels to obviously franchise quarterbacks, like where will he end up in those levels? But I think the things that you need to do, which is, you know, operate with anticipation at the NFL level, it's like a prerequisite unless you have God to your arm strength. He's doing better than any Rick quarterback in the NFL.

Better than any Rick quarterback since like uh burrow burrow and herbert too like it's just he's tremendous in that regard he's you know probably been calmer under pressure than i would have thought given how he showed and how he fared under pressure at ohio state and it was always just like it wasn't that he was terrible in that regard it was just more we didn't know. He had such a good – he was behind Paris Johnson and DeJuan Jones, probably the two best rookie offense tackles in the NFL right now. He was playing behind last year, so you just didn't know. He just had such massive pockets to work with.

How is he going to fare when he's behind a backup off his line at the next level? Well, it doesn't matter because he's so quick with the football. So I think the speed with which he's processing the anticipation honestly one of the worst parts about his game so far has been his accuracy he's missed more throws than I ever saw from Ohio State so that's the one thing where it's like oh you know that'll probably come around and get better so I really think Stroud's going to be very good also gotta give a shout out to Bobby Sloak former PFFer who's dialing it up for him giving him some of these you know,

the offense looks good down there as a whole, just not just him. So the other two, though, Richardson, like a lot of people are high on him. He still misses a ton of throws. He's got to create offense no matter who he's surrounded by, like because he's so physically gifted. That's why you take the chance on those guys is because they have such innate ability to just create yardage out of nothing. And that's,

it's, that's great. And that was always going to be there though. The thing is like, can you operate accurately? That's still a big TBD. And so, you know,

still going to need to see some development sucks that like he's hurting his throwing shoulder to be like, that that's the injury. The guy who needs to work on accuracy is hurting the one thing that he needed to work on. So that's probably, you may not see, like, a much different guy next year, sadly, because of that. So that sucks. But I still, like, think that in time, he doesn't need to be that accurate to still lead a high-end offense. So, big fan of his

big fan of stroud's young i don't think he's been as bad as maybe like the stats suggest or like how people have talked about him i still think there's been a lot to like i will say the size he's gone down goes down very easy in the pocket that's's maybe not too surprising. He's the smallest quarterback in modern NFL history. That part's maybe a little worrisome. Already missed a game this season with injury. That's never going to necessarily change. He's always going to be that guy. But I do think you see the creation ability.

You see the quickness with which he can get to a second read and still work on time. You see him able to navigate and still escape pressure when it's not like a free runner and a guy who can track them down. So a lot to like, still they just, when you have no wide receivers that can get down the football field, that's what any offense is going to look like is what the parents that kind

of look like is that just, just everything's tight. Everything's tight window throw. Cause no one's afraid of getting beat deep by this panther receiving core they're now truly horrendous offensive line i mean like in a complete abomination of an offensive line which is what everyone wants for the shortest quarterback in the league right is to have the pressure in his face almost immediately and uh you know but but with, with Bryce, the one thing that I would say I think is going for him is that he's resilient. Like I did, I saw him make huge mistakes, but I did not see

him give up. That was the one thing that early on with Justin Fields, I was very worried about is Justin Fields would get down in a game and they just lose by 40. And it happened earlier to, you know, against Kansas city. Like you don't even keep fighting. And I feel like there's a fight in Bryce Young. They got down to the Lions, and he let a touchdown drive. And even though it didn't really matter, he was commanding the offense, get going, getting people in place, making some throws. Like, okay, you can work with that if a guy has some resilience, some toughness to his game and is accurate and build around that.

If he's just going to flop, if it goes wrong, then you can't. So that's very interesting to see and also hilarious about the NFC. The NFC cannot find a young quarterback, and then the two guys that look better go, right, exactly. Mike, always a pleasure to have you on the show. And by the way, in my book, Football is a Numbers Game, Pro Football Focus, and how a data-driven approach shook up the sport, I was able to, thanks to your help, tell your story of how you ended up at PFF, the journey you've taken,

and now that has landed you at The Messenger and with the Lockdown Podcast Network. Quite an honor. People should check that out and how you became uh one of the most trusted draft analysts and now it's no longer pff mike it's at mike renner underscore which is a little ugly but you know it is what it is i know mike's too common a name even though if my last name's not super common so there's like there's like seven other mike renners running around usa stealing all my good social media handles, unfortunately, because I was late to the game. Well, maybe there's some draft takes of theirs that you can borrow. So anyway, well, great stuff.

People should check out the Messenger. It's new. There's a lot of great people working there. And you should go check that out because I think it's an exciting venture. So thanks again for doing this. And we'll talk again soon, man. For sure, Matthew. Thanks for having me brother guys i know that you might act tough and pretend that you don't care about how the skin on your

face looks but we all want to show up to football parties and holiday get-togethers looking good that's where caldera lab comes in over a hundred thousand men trust caldera Lab because of the way they give you an easy skincare routine that turns into clear skin. And hey, it makes for a great gift as well. You're going to want to try the regimen, which has three simple parts. One of them is called the Clean Slate. It is a face wash that leaves you feeling refreshed. Also, the base layer moisturizes and hydrates, and the good helps your skin look tighter and smoother and, dare I even say, younger, which a lot of us could use. We have all looked in the

mirror and thought, when did I start looking like that? Well, trials have shown 94% of men showed improvement in their appearance after using Caldera Lab. So just for you guys, use the code INSIDER at calderalab.com. Get 20% off right now. That is 20% off at calderalab.com with the code INSIDER to make unforgettable first impressions with the best gift for this holiday season. Oh, it is that time again here on purple insider matthew collar and manny hill that is hot routes time on a thursday night as thursday night football is going on and the buffalo bills

playing the tampa bay bucks so hopefully you're watching the game having a good time and enjoying our show as well or if you don don't have Amazon Prime, then you're just watching us and refreshing Twitter over and over again to see what's happening in the game. That's if you are cheap. But I've seen comments, Manny, that Al Michaels is into this one tonight because the Buffalo crowd is juiced. But I'm not sure it's going to be a good game. The NFC South is truly abominable.

And in recent weeks, when I have watched the Tampa Bay Bucks, the one game, no matter what happens this year with the Vikings, whether they finish 11 and six or six and 11, I will still go back to that Bucks game and go, that's the one, that's the one that messed up this whole thing because otherwise instead of going down to green bay hoping for four and four hoping to get on a run hoping to compete for the division if they were four and three looking at going five and three and then with the teams coming up that they're facing we'd be talking about wow kevin you know kevin o'connell has done it again with this team and like they're coming together and they could be maybe a little bit dangerous.

And instead, we're still kind of having that like, you know, I don't know kind of discussion because of that loss to the Bucs. And that Bucs team is just not very good, Manny. They're really not. And I tweeted out after the game Monday night, after the Vikings beat the Niners, And I said, it's that damn Bucs game, man. If they win that game, they're sitting at four and three, and they're a game out of first place. And then you look at the way the Lions performed in Baltimore on Sunday, the Lions suddenly don't look like this completely unstoppable team

that we thought that they were kind of becoming in previous weeks that, you know, they were maybe going to run away with this division and they still might, but watching them play in Baltimore on Sunday kind of has you thinking, well, if the Vikings can spring together a couple of wins here, they can kind of keep themselves in the conversation for the division. But yeah, you're right. I mean, you still look at that Tampa Bay game from week one and you're just like, God, that's the one, you know, I know somebody replied back to it, talking about the Chargers game too. And, you know, you can make that argument. I think, you know, if they score on that last drive at the end and beat the Chargers, we're probably still having

a similar conversation, but I think that butts loss is more, could stand to be more impactful because it's an NFC opponent. And when, you know, when you're talking about tiebreakers and things like that, I mean, even forget about the NFC North, if you're talking about just trying to get one of those wildcard spots, you know, that could be the difference in terms of tiebreakers with conference records. So that,

that'll be interesting to see how things kind of play out the rest of this season. If that's the game that ultimately comes back to to bite them in the end. And certainly the Chargers game is a nomination, but the Chargers, I think I'll play them in a lot of ways in that game. And I remember looking at one of the things I like to look at is the win probability fluctuations throughout a game that will kind of tell you how random it was, or where was it a back and forth game? Was it a true one score game? If you're going down the stretch at the end and you know, there's a 50, 50 shot in the fourth quarter and the chargers game wasn't really that way. I mean, the Vikings got a really great break when the chargers tried to hand off to a backup running back on fourth

down. So even though some of the breaks went against them earlier in the game, they also were helped out quite a few times by the Chargers as well. But overall, you figure Los Angeles is a pretty good team and their quarterback played great in that game and they outplayed you in a lot of ways. So, okay, you come away with a loss there. Tampa Bay was just crazy. They had the ball like two times in the entire second half, and Baker Mayfield claimed to have, or his teammate claimed that they knew some of the Vikings' signals. Oh, we lost Manny. Okay.

Manny, come back. Okay, let me put myself in the middle then here until Manny returns. Not with a line down my face. This operation becomes more complicated without Manny. right there we go okay I will have to uh get him back internet troubles so anyway the uh Tampa Bay game is not only the one that is giving the Vikings trouble with their season but also is surprising because when I watched them play the last couple of weeks they lost to Atlanta and now they're trailing Buffalo. They're just not that good of a football team.

But what Manny and I are and Manny just texted me, he will return when his Internet returns. So don't worry. But if you're watching and you want to jump in the comment section with some thoughts on this, then please do. Because the main topic of tonight's show, and hopefully we get Manny back in a second here, is just about this Vikings Packers rivalry and the next phase of it. Because most of my entire life, even though I didn't grow up in Minnesota and only moved here in 2016, most of my life, was watching Packers and Vikings games that were on at three 25 all the time because they're showing off, you know, Brett Favre and nobody liked Brett Favre more than those Fox afternoon games. And there were so many gems and classics along the way. And we'll talk about them throughout the show, but they were rooted in the idea that they had Favre, they had Rogers, and there was nothing better for Vikings fans than taking down these quarterbacks that got

talked about all the time. John Madden obsessing over Brett Favre, you know, and when the Vikings would beat them, there was just so much extra energy to that win because you knew who you were going up against. It meant so much more to beat those guys. I mean, think about even the opener last year setting the tone for the entire season of beating Aaron Rodgers. Hey, there's Manny. Let's get Manny back in. Here we go.

There we go. Now I got to fix a bunch of stuff, Manny. It really throws the operation off. There we go now i gotta fix a bunch of stuff manny it really throws the operation off there we go let's put a little box around us uh yeah you were so upset about the loss to the bucks by the vikings that you just completely quit the stream but i've moved on in topics manny and i'm talking about now this vikings packers rivalry and it's really entering a brand new phase where for so long it was, if you beat them, that made your season because you knew that you were beating one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL. And there was a confidence to that. There was an energy that came along with

that. And I guess what I wonder is having watched those battles, Harrison Smith talked about it with us today, about how he and Aaron Rodgers would be staring each other down on every play. And he told the story where Aaron Rodgers sort of waved to him like, I know you're coming down to the line of scrimmage. Come on down. I know like the cat and mouse game that they would play. It's just not the same with Jordan Love, I think. But we're going to start to find out this week. Yeah, we are.

And, you know, it's just been such a roller coaster, just up and down ride with Jordan Love where, you know, he looks good in moments. And then other moments he's making throws and decisions where you're just like, dude, what the hell are you doing? What are you looking at? And, you know, and I think you could maybe question, you know, does he have enough? You know, do they really have enough around him to really be like a serious contender and for him to have the most possible success? But, yeah, you're right. I mean, the feeling of this rivalry is just a little different. You know, when you don't have that rock star, superstar, Hall of Fame quarterback to go up against, to really kind of root against like we had for basically 30 years between Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers. It's it just it takes a little bit of air out of the out of the sails of this rivalry. It's just not quite as heated.

And I think you kind of talked about this last year, I remember, about just like if it's not Aaron Rodgers, it's just not going to feel the same because so much of it is going in and beating Aaron Rodgers. And I remember a few times when the Vikings would go up against the Packers and Aaron Rodgers wouldn't play because he got injured or got injured in the game. There was the one weird game in 2013, I think, where he was already injured. It was a year, I think he broke his collarbone and they came back and won the division in week 17 against the Bears. But he was out that game and I think it was like Seneca Wallace and,

and Scott Tolzien or something playing for the Packers that day. And it was just, you know, the Vikings weren't very good either that year. That was the last year with Leslie Frazier. And it just kind of, it didn't have the same, the same oomph, that same, you know, level of, of, of intrigue because, you know, the Vikings weren't very good. And then on top of that, you know level of of um of intrigue because you know the vikings weren't very good and then on top of that you know aaron rogers who's public enemy number one in minnesota at that point

um isn't playing either it just uh it's not the same when you don't have that great hall of fame quarterback to go against i will throw out a trivia question to you you may already have seen the answer on twitter or know this in your big manny brain anyway uh but for the comment section then i'll give the answer in a second the last quarterback not named rogers or farve to beat the vikings and i think i've only covered one game where it wasn't rogers and that would be or at least starting the game because anthony barr heard him in 2017 and then we went down it was like negative four degrees at Lambeau and Brett Hundley was horrendous and I think the Vikings defense shut them out and so forth and and so that was without uh Rodgers but they they would never beat the Vikings

except for kind of back back when it's not the magic man not Dan Majowski was a great question. And there's always a lot of different spellings of his name that you see anytime anyone takes a shot at it. But yeah, so I got this right. Kevin Seifert brought this up in the media room today and I got this right. It was some time ago and it's a guy that you do not think of as being a Packers quarterback. So do you not know this? I don't know this? I don't know this. This had to have been what, like pre-FARV, right? So this would have been like 91-ish, maybe 1990, something like that, probably.

Yep. Yep. And it wasn't Don Makowski. Okay. It wasn't. It was not Dan Makowski. Think about it, and we'll, we'll talk for a few minutes and then I'll, I'll give you the answer. Cause I want to give

everybody a chance in the comments to see if anyone can get it. But I, I, I was, let's say I was very proud of myself that I ended up getting this with only one, one hint. Uh, it was not Doug Peterson either that that was a guess, uh, as well. So I said when they traded Rodgers to the Jets, you'll miss him a little bit. You'll miss him a little bit. And I think most people would disagree for this week if you want the Vikings to get back in. And I kind of don't really believe people all the time when they say that they want them to tank and lose every game. But then I don't know. I see a lot of people celebrating when you win against San Francisco. If you're given the choice and I know the long-term implications, but you'd rather go

and you'd rather beat the green Bay Packers. I'm sure for 95% of the fan base and not talk about tanking and not talk about trading people and everything else. So you're not going to miss him this week because what he did against them last year, even though the Vikings beat themselves in some ways, he had a play where he kind of faked somebody out. I think it might've been Brian awesome wall where he faked somebody out and then went into the end zone. I was like,

okay, you won't miss that. You won't miss that. What, what you will miss is, I always liked this, the mutual respect between the organizations and between, I think even the fan bases have this. There's a like, we hate the Packers,

but you know, they're good or whatever. You know what I mean? I think there is a respect there, but I really appreciated the Mike Zimmer defense versus Aaron Rodgers battles and Rodgers won sometimes and Zimmer won sometimes, but you always knew that it was going to be tight and it was going to be tough. And it was going to be, you know, Aaron Rodgers, maybe looking like the worst version of himself sometimes, or having to do some stuff that was totally out of this

world that I going down to cover it. I will miss now that it's, it's Kevin O'Connell, it's Jordan love. It's Matt Lafleur. The two franchises are wearing the same clothes, but not that sort of energy that when you build up to it, you go, these two guys are going to throw blows at each other. Mike Zimmer's defense and Aaron Rogers on offense. Yeah, absolutely. And we always would hear about every time that, that week leading up to a Packer Viking game and, you know, whether it was you or somebody, you or Courtney or somebody else in that media room talking to Mike Zimmer and you would ask him about just going up against Aaron Rodgers. And he always just talked about how it was such a,

such a challenge to put together a game plan for that week to shut down Aaron Rodgers. And it's, you know, as we've seen for, you know, a decade and a half with Aaron Rodgers, you don't just shut him down. I mean, we just very rarely have seen Aaron Rodgers just be absolutely terrible. We have seen it a couple of times. And even in, you know, even during the Mike Zimmer era, there were a couple of times where, you know, Zimmer's defense was able to kind of get the best of him. Didn't happen a lot, but it happened a few times,

happened enough times to remember. And yeah, I mean, it was just amazing. And that is, that part of it is the stuff that you miss. You do miss kind of the chess matches between, you know, the great Hall of Fame quarterback and the defensive minded head coach that's going up against him. And, you know, who knows what's going to happen with Jordan Love going forward if he's going to end up developing into this stud player. But it's just it's not the same as what we've seen and certainly in the last 10 years i wonder how many times they've played since farve became a green bay packer and the two teams had records this bad this far into the

season normally at least the packers but it wasn't always them that at least one of the teams, the game would be very meaningful for, and you're talking about a team chasing the division, chasing, chasing, potentially going deep in the playoffs and so forth. And it had that meaning too. And now this is two teams trying to save themselves from drowning. And that's just not what we expect from the Vikings. Even when Kirk had to miss that one game and Sean Mannion had to start, there was still playoffs on the line. And we're going to get to, you've got a list of your five favorite. I've covered them all since I moved here. So I made my list entirely based on just games that I've covered between the Packers and the Vikings.

This is just an unusual situation. And another thing I want to talk about after I give you the trivia question answer is just whether we think it will be good because these teams are not great and they have weaknesses, but the calamity element of both teams could result in maybe more madness than what we would expect before, where we would expect really good football. I mean, think of some of the matchups, even that we've seen the last few years.

Everson Griffin versus David Bakhtiari. Xavier Rhodes versus Devontae Adams. I mean, these individual matchups. Harrison Smith, I think, playing games with the quarterback. Eric Hendricks the same way. And this year, you know, the individual matchups don't have that same energy, especially since Justin Jefferson is not playing. Lynn Dickey is a good guess.

It is actually Mike Tomczak. Really? Yes. Okay. Yes, Mike Tomczak. And the hint, the only hint that Kevin Seifert gave was, he gave two hints. One, it's not somebody you typically think of as a Packer. And two, it was somebody who was more known for playing for another team in the Central.

And I said, Mike Tomczak. So nailed it. Very proud of myself for getting that one. Do you think it will be a good game or is it going to be another version of what we saw in Chicago? And I'm going to drive back from Lambeau regretting the fact that I drove all the way to Lambeau? I kind of have a sneaky feeling that it is going to be a pretty good, pretty competitive game.

I think because, like you said, these teams are kind of in similar spots where they're both just kind of scratching and clawing to just kind of stay and clawing to just kind of stay in the in the thick of things as far as trying to get a playoff spot um and i think the atmosphere will be solid you know and the vikings are feeling pretty good about themselves coming off a really um really impressive win against a great team um that i think you know a lot of people thought were really kind of kind of run the vikings out of u.s I think, you know, a lot of people thought were really going to kind of run the Vikings out of U.S. Bank Stadium with, you know, with the kind of season that the Niners

had had. So the Vikings are feeling pretty good about themselves. You know, the Packers maybe not so much right now, but, you know, I think the Packers being home, it's certainly a game that I think the players will get up for and i think they'll you know i think you combine those things and i think it'll end up being a pretty um a pretty solid fun game i think so but i just have trouble trusting this vikings team to deliver on what we think they should right and the packers i don't really know either because the Packers have played exciting games they've played them against Atlanta and Denver and you know and but the Vikings played tight games with Carolina and Chicago I mean there's only one game that separates these two teams

and they can't really look at the the Packers and say oh we're way better than you because they have one good win on the season the Packers played better against the bears and we could go round and round of you lost to this team. So we're better. You played this way against that team. It's never been a great way to evaluate, but what both teams have is enough talent to make it interesting. And on the defensive side, especially for the Packers, although they are really banged up looking at their injury report. But they have enough talent on that side. If Jair Alexander plays, he's got a back issue. He did not practice today, but Rashawn Gary's a great pass rusher.

I'm sure they're going to try to move him around to get him maybe away from Christian Derusaw, who's just ruining everyone's life over there because he's so good. Pass rushers just are completely taken out on his side. But they've got defensive players who can cause problems for the Vikings. The fact that Jefferson is out last week against the 49ers, they had a perfect game plan against them. But the week before, Jordan Addison, they were able to largely take him out of the game.

And TJ Atkinson was not a big factor against the Chicago Bears. So I'm not sure how much I trust them. It really comes down to whether this game is going to be good or not is a how they game plan against the Vikings. The 49ers, I thought, did a tremendously bad job of it and give the Vikings credit. But they they basically said, like, you're not going to beat our man to man coverage a lot of times. And the Vikings were like, no, actually, we can't.

Like, that's really what we do. And they did. You won't be able to protect well enough to beat our man-to-man coverage. And they found a way to do it. That's like, I guess the 49ers hadn't checked the Vikings since, like, 2019. The offensive line's better now. It really comes down to, is Jordan Love going to have a good day and make this interesting and be patient and complete passes over the middle like we've seen the good quarterbacks do

and chip away and chip away at this Vikings defense? Is Aaron Jones going to play, catch passes out of the backfield? Or is Jordan Love just going to get totally confused by Brian Flores and get lost and lose? I really don't see a scenario where the Packers offense can run away from the Vikings, though. I don't either, and I think it's just because they've been so inconsistent, and Jordan Love specifically has been so inconsistent. You watch him play, and you can see some flashes of like,

okay, I see why they liked him. I see why there's a thought that he can be pretty good, and then he'll just do something, and you're like, no, that's not it, dude. You're not supposed to do that at this, at this level of this league. But I think, you know, if, if he's going to have success, it kind of feels like he's going to have to get out to a really good start. Can't have, you know, if, if they, if they go three and out to start out the game, you know, the Vikings defense is going to feel really good at that point because they're off to a nice start.

And then, you know, you might have to start looking at some of the body language on the Packers side. You know, is Jordan Love, is he kind of looking frustrated early on? That could be a sign of things to come for the rest of the day. But if they come out and they start moving the ball, and even if they get down in position and kick a field goal, you know, Packers offense will be feeling pretty good. And then it'll be interesting to see how the Vikings sort of counter that.

And then, you know, the offense too. I mean, you know, are we going to see a Jair Alexander, Jordan Addison matchup? How is that? You know, that's going to be a challenge for a guy who kind of had his coming out party last uh on Monday night you know Jordan Addison was outstanding and uh and I mean he's looking like he's going to be just just an absolute stud and going forward with him and Justin Jefferson on the same team is just going to be incredible but he's going to be going up against potentially, you know, one of the best cover corners in the National Football League,

Jair Alexander, and that's going to be a challenge for him. How does he perform with that? Does he get, you know, does he get frustrated if things aren't going his way? I mean, we kind of saw that a little bit with Justin Jefferson last year in the game at Lambeau where, you know, Justin didn't really have much of an impact in that game. You could kind of see he was frustrated because that was a matchup he was getting up for. You know, will that happen with Jordan Addison on Sunday? That'll be interesting to see too. They've got the right cleats this time and that's important. So that was a storyline from last

year's game. You know, I saw you trying there, Manny, like really trying to muster all the takes for this game. There's just not the same twinkle in your eye without Rodgers. And, you know, maybe the rivalry, though, considering the two games last year against Detroit and how competitive they were, Vikings, you know, coming away with the last-minute win, the Detroit throwing a pass to their offensive tackle to end the game.

Like maybe there's a Detroit thing that starts to happen here with them, you know, being good and the Vikings potentially building, you know, a team that's really good here around Jefferson Addison, the offensive tackles, and it's possible the next 30 years or Vikings and lions. I don't know. It just doesn't feel like this rivalry with the Packers is going to have a lot of juice going forward, unless Jordan love, you know, the light comes on and then he's great.

I think it's far too early to say that he just stinks and it'll never be fun again. Speaking of fun, Manny pizza's fun. And you should make little Caesars, the official pizza sponsor of the NFL, part of your game day. Order online during their Pizza Pizza pregame one hour before NFL games and get ready for some football and fun. Choose your favorite Little Caesars pizza or pick up the toppings or pick the toppings you crave. Either way, you win. And speaking of winning, everyone scores with convenient delivery on their in-store pizza portal pickup. So grab some friends, enjoy a few slices during the tastiest hour before kickoff pizza pizza. And I want to remind you guys that a purple insiders going to Vegas baby in December. That's right. We are going to Vegas for football. And if you would like to escape the Minnesota December weather like me, come join me at Circa in Las Vegas,

where I will be hanging out and doing the podcast for a couple days. Leading up to the game, you will be able to find me outside there at Stadium Swim watching games on their gigantic television, spending time relaxing in their heated pools, which is very nice. It's one of the coolest places I have ever been to watch sports. Then on Friday night before the game, there's going to be a special party just for Minnesota fans that includes drink

specials and a two-ticket giveaway to the game. So come meet me there. Talk football at the amazing Overhang Bar inside Circa. You have to RSVP, though, so go to CircaLasVegas.com. Go to Sportsbook. Click where it says Huddle Up at Overhang. So CircaLasV RSVP though. So go to circa Las Vegas.com, go to sports book, click where it says,

huddle up at overhang. So circa Las Vegas.com sports book and huddle up at overhang. And then you can make a whole weekend of it at circa. So book your spot today and I will see you there. All right, Manny, you got a list. You were assigned homework to make a list.

Top five Vikings and Packers games of your lifetime we didn't go back to like you know Bart Starr or whatever uh sorry if you're if you're old and you want to bring up those games go ahead but we've got a pretty big sample size of Favre Rogers versus the Vikings and you have made a list of five i have made a list of five games that i've covered since moving here so let's go with your top five favorite vikings packers games of your lifetime okay so i went two different routes here because i kind of figured that i kind of figured your top five would be games that you've covered and you've been here since uh 2016 correct so i didn't pick any games i didn't pick any games from the time that you've been here because i figured i'd let you have have your shine on that um but i did kind of go a homer route all

five of the games that i picked were vikings wins so of course i had to although there have been some great games in my lifetime that the packers ultimately won that I think you can look back on as just great football games. So I'll count down from five to one. Number five for me was 2015, week 17. The Vikings and Packers are playing at Lambeau. Both teams are 10 and five. Basically, the winner of this game wins the NFC North and hosts a playoff game next week. The Packers go in or the Vikings go in. And really, for the most part, Mike Zimmer's defense does a really nice job on Aaron Rodgers. And the Vikings end up winning that game 20 to 13. It was kind of a weird game.

The ending of the game, Aaron Rodgers still has like a Hail Mary shot to try and tie the game in the closing seconds. There was a weird moment where Teddy Bridgewater threw an interception left-handed. He was getting sacked, and he kind of just like tried to improvise, and he threw the ball with his left hand and ended up getting picked off, I think, by Desmond Bishop, if I remember. So that was just kind of a weird Week 17, everything on the line type of game. Both teams were going to the playoffs regardless of the result. But, you know, Vikings were trying to win the division and they did.

So that one, 20 to 13, was the final in that one. Number four was another week 17 game in 2012. Vikings win on a Blair Walsh field goal at the end to clinch a playoff spot 37-34. That game is significant though because, one, because it was kind of a back and forth battle, but that was also the game that Adrian Peterson rushed, you know, got to the 2,000 yard mark for that season and ended up, I think he was nine yards short of breaking Eric Dickerson's single season record, almost 2,100 yards for the season. And it was a really, really entertaining game. Christian Ponder actually played pretty well, probably the best game of his career.

Actually, you know, came through with some plays and some nice throws, and the Vikings were able to win the game at the buzzer to go to the playoffs. The following week, they went into Lambeau and got beat anyway. The game that Joe Webb started, the rest is history there. Number three, 2009, I think it was week seven. I could be wrong on that, but it was Brett Favre's return to Lambeau Field. Just so much going into that game he had already played the Packers earlier in the season they beat him on Monday night um and this game was but this game was was even bigger than that because it was far of going back to his old stomping grounds and he was just fantastic in the game through four touchdown passes and the

vikings win 38 to 26 number two uh 1998 i believe it was week five vikings 37 packers 24 randy moss on monday night football uh as a rookie really just comes in and just annihilates the packers um he's just catching everything. Randall Cunningham's just throwing bombs to him. And the Vikings go in and really kind of destroy the Packers. And this was a Packers team that had just been to the Super Bowl two years in a row prior to this. So this was, you know, still Brett Favre was still in his prime, still one of the best quarterbacks in the league.

Packers still one of the best teams in the league. And here comes this rookie freakish wide receiver out of Marshall University. And he just he just destroys the Packers. Number one is another Randy Moss game. Has to be the 2004 wildcard game. Vikings going to Lambeau, beat the Packers 31-17. The Randy Moss Moon game one of the things that I remember that was kind of underrated about that game was I think it was Pam Oliver on the sidelines talking to Mike Tice right before kickoff and just seeing Ticey talk and

there was just kind of this like looseness about him where it was just like the Vikings almost were just kind of playing with house money going into that game. They kind of backed into the playoffs. They weren't playing well down the stretch of the season. They had the game the week before in Washington, the last game of the season where Randy Moss walked off the field before the game was actually over. So there was kind of that drama going on and the team was just loose all the guys on the team that had that normally wore cornrows including randy moss they all had their hair pulled out and they were all had like afros and everything and it was great and randy moss put on a show with playing on one leg with the hamstring had the moon play um and it was just it was great and farve was awful that game i think he threw four picks in the play. And it was just, it was great. And Favre was awful that game.

I think he threw four picks in the game. And it was just, it was just a lot of, it was just a lot of fun. So that is, that's my top five. Here's how, you know, I've been doing this a while. I've watched every single one of those games back since I've been here, or I remember some of them. I remember the Randy Moss breakout game against the Packers.

But the 2015 one, it doesn't really stand out, I think, in the lore of this matchup as much as maybe it should because of what happened the following week and Blair Walsh shanking the field goal. If Blair Walsh makes it, I wonder what happens because Mike Zimmer had that defense playing as an elite, elite unit at that point. They really emerged, you know, two years later, 2017, they had their moments in 2016, but that was as good of a defense. Xavier Rhodes halfway through that season starts to take on that role of being the island

corner. And I think that that's the last time someone has weekend and week out Xavier roads in general, actually been an island corner, not just playing sides and sometimes following a receiver one week or not, but every single week was starting to follow the best wide receivers. Sheree Floyd was playing at that point. Like that was a really darn good defense. And if they don't miss the field goal,

or maybe it's a little warmer outside you know you wonder how far that defense could have taken them because that was the sign of well this defense is really really good um so uh you know there's there's a lot to say about each one of those games great list though every one of those games are complete classics in the lore of vikings and. So it is a little harder for me to have the same pop on my list as yours because it's only limited to games that I've covered. But there's a different story for each one of these. I will start out with last year's opener. And even though it was not a good game and it was not that close,

there's huge significance to it being that Justin Jefferson jefferson did what he did after saying in the offseason i want to be the best receiver in the nfl comes out and immediately blows away the green bay packers kevin o'connell the way that the offense operated new head coach the buzz in that building i i don't know if it's actually been matched since it was pretty good on monday night but half the stadium or whatever quarter of the stadium was 49ers fans and that night though or that afternoon it was just a new energy and a new vibe so uh even though it wasn't like an instant classic football game it was i thought a significant win for the organization that would start off that journey of a 13 win season. That was a pretty fun one. Actually the year before is a forgotten classic because of the way the season ended. And that was a 34 31 win by the Vikings in which, Hey, if you thought

Kirk cousins played his best game on Monday, go back and watch this one. 34 31. He was marvelous. The Vikings gave up a couple of big deep shots to Aaron Rogers and Kirk comes this close to throwing an interception at the end. But instead Adam Thielen kind of swipes the ball away. Shades of what happened the other night with Jordan Addison. They go on, they score. It was just one of those back and forth Rogers at his best. Again, the atmosphere in the game, you know, it was great, even though that season was kind of miserable. So that's number four on my list. The funny thing about my list is that it kind of goes backwards, like almost in order here.

And I did not do this on purpose. 2018 Manny was a game I debated between 2018, a national TV game and one that the Vikings lost where they had come back from down 21, zero, but I decided we won't include that one. But in 2018, there was a lot of drama going on.

And on the other side, Mike McCarthy was kind of falling apart with that team. And again, this was one that was on national TV. Kirk Cousins steps up. Kyle Rudolph had a big game in that one and they end up winning 24 to 17. Again, this is not the most exciting game of all time, but it was a huge win for them at the time. And it meant a lot. Now the last two are great. So those ones are like, okay, all right, well, they happen and it's pretty memorable or whatever. The last two are great. So those ones are like, okay, all right, well, they happen and it's pretty memorable or whatever. The last two are just ones that you'll never forget.

29 to 29, 2018 in one of the silliest, most absurd games, the game is over, but then, you know, the, the Packers get called for hitting the quarterback and it was early in the season. So they were calling everything with hitting the quarterback. And then the Vikings got called for one. And then Daniel Carlson misses three field goals. But Mason Crosby also missed a couple field goals. And it went back and forth and back and forth. And here's a chance to win the game.

Missed field goal. 29-29. Weirdest thing I've ever seen walking out of there where no one was talking everyone was just completely shocked what do we say what is it what just happened what did we just see totally totally bizarre both locker rooms were super angry after the game that they didn't win it because they had so many chances. There were clutch plays, great throws, great catches, crazy, everything, and nobody won. And then this one I would put on any list of all-time great Vikings Packers games ever. The opening of US Bank Stadium and my first home game ever covering the Minnesota Vikings.

Sam Bradford shows up. Two weeks later, he takes over, wins 17-14, a breakout game for Stephon Diggs. I think Kyle Rudolph caught the first touchdown in U.S. Bank Stadium history. Trey Waynes with the late-game interception. Mike Zimmer using that insane crowd to mess with Aaron Rodgers all night. That was, I mean, the only time I've ever heard

a stadium louder was the Superdome in the playoffs and that's it. And since then it has never been louder and a Minneapolis miracle and Taylor Swift concert. That was also insanely loud. So those are the only louder that I've heard than that game, but that was, that was nuts. And even though the season would end up going sideways, what a moment to open that building with a win over the Packers in that way. So did I did I forget any Manny of the 2016 to present Vikings Packers era? No, those are all good. The twenty nine twenty nine game in 2018. I mean, that will forever be known as the Daniel Carlson game because of the kicks that he did not make.

And then, of course, Mike Zimmer, when the next day when Daniel Carlson got released, the question, you know, what went into the decision to let Daniel Carlson go? Did you see the game? All of that stuff is memorable. And, yeah, what a weird day that was that 2016 game to open up us bank stadium i mean just it was it was just it was so absurd watching sam bradford doing what he was doing after having been with the team for literally like two weeks like i mean that was for him to just kind of seamlessly step in and play pretty well and I remember he had like uh I don't know if it was like a gash or something on his hand and I remember he came out of the game briefly and and everybody you know and Sam Bradford's got this

injury history in his career he's always been the guy that was kind of banged up and had knee injuries and all this stuff so it's like it's it's his first game, he's playing great. And then all of a sudden he comes out of the game with like this hand injury, you know, nobody really knows what's going on. It's like, oh no, come on. Like serious. This guy's playing great his first game and now he's going to be out like what's going on. And then he comes back in and everything is fine. And yeah, that was, that was, that was a, a that was a really really fun night i think just because it was so unexpected for sam bradford to just come in like that sort of cold turkey and just um play the way that he did it was a lot of fun there's a yeah there's a lot

of memories i have from that game um one is i remember sam bradford on a play action hit Stefan Diggs for like a 40-yard post route. And I was like, this Stefan Diggs guy is unreal. Do you guys know how good this player is? And after that, he went on and on. Also, Adrian Peterson got hurt, which would linger over the team really in the second half of the season. Is he coming back? Then he had a surgery that instead of getting him back as soon as he could he did like a different surgery that kept him out longer which caused some

tension between him and the team because Zimmer wanted him back and they couldn't run the football and instead you know and so forth and there was just some frustration inside the locker room with Adrian Peterson specifically they lost both of their tackles. I think Khalil got hurt that night, and maybe Andre Smith got hurt the week before. So then that was a whole thing, and Jake Long showed up, and TJ Clemmings, and everything else. It all kind of started with that game.

And before that, Mike Zimmer was trying to do a little like, are we really going to start Bradford? I don't know. And I remember Mike McCarthy being like, yeah, we are we really going to start Bradford? I don't know. And I remember Mike McCarthy being like, yeah, we know they're going to start Bradford and Zimmer Zimmer was so mad that we reported about, uh, Sam Bradford taking reps with the first team in practice because he didn't think that we should have put that out there. And, uh, then Mike McCarthy was just like, yeah, we already knew. So it wasn't a big deal, but kind of, kind of funny stuff. And that was like,

I was still my head spinning, just got to Minnesota, just had moved, went to the state fair for the first time. Teddy gets hurt. They trade for Bradford. And then now they're open in the stadium with that win. So really, really, really, really fun times for me. Easily the number one. A lot of them have been crazy, but they've had really horrific losses. The interception by Kirk in the end zone to lose the game. Last year with kind of the seven stud no show, you could call it. The mutiny in 2016 at the end of the season.

The Kirk gets covid game i mean there's so many where even in 2019 where it looked like zimmer might get fired after they lost so badly against the packers at home that was the one where they didn't have any running backs and i think mike boone had to start and they just ran over them so a lot of these games have gone along with kind of gut punch losses and maybe even more than they have huge momentum gaining wins since I've covered the team. So there you have it. You also wanted to talk about your sort of favorite crossover players, because what we do a lot of times when it's a random opponent is we go, Hey, top five favorite players who played for the chiefs, but you can't do top five favorite Packers on a show that covers

the Vikings. People will be upset. We can't have people being upset. So how about crossover players, your favorite crossover players who are Vikings and Packers? Well, I will go, uh, you know, in no particular order. Um, but I'll start with Ryan Longwell as a kicker. Longwell was a really good kicker for a long time in Green Bay, as Vikings fans know.

And then he comes over in 2006, I believe, and he was kind of one of the big free agent signings that Brad Childress and that whole front office did. You know, they had made sort of the quasi trade for Steve Hutchinson and signed him to that poison pill contract and everything. But Ryan Longwell was another one of those kind of the big names. And, oh, we stole their kicker. And that was kind of the big thing. But then Ryan Longwell ended up being a really good kicker for the Vikings, too,

for, you know, I think it was about six seasons until they went and got Blair Walsh. So Ryan Longwell is obviously on the list. Obviously, you could talk about, you know, the guy who wore number four and, you know, that fun season in 2009 and the way he played at age 40. Greg Jennings was the one, too, that kind of sticks out to me just because when he retired, he ended up, like, we found out he ended up, like, staying and living here in the suburbs in the area because like it's just kind of nice that you know one a guy that kind of stung the Vikings for a long time as a member of the Packers just like comes over and plays with plays with the Vikings for two years and then like he I think he went to like Miami or something like that for a season after that and then like retired and it was like oh Greg Jennings still lives here okay

that's kind of cool um so Greg Jennings is kind of one two that that stands out uh zadaria smith i think coming in last year and you know i i know he didn't you know he didn't finish the season quite as well but i know he's kind of dealing with some injuries and everything but the first half of the season last year he was he was terrific he was outstanding because he was healthy and you saw him in games and you were like, oh, yeah, Zedaria Smith is still really good. You know what I mean? Because there was kind of that thought like, oh, yeah, he might be kind of washed out. The same guy dealing with injuries and everything.

But for the first half of last year, he was he was fantastic. It's kind of too bad that he was dealing with some injuries and stuff late in the year and he wasn't quite as effective um so uh you might remember this guy from his time playing for the buffalo bills but do you remember bryce pop bryce pop is on my list i absolutely do bryce pop bryce pop had a season with buffalo where he got like 17 sacks and it made no sense it was like what in the world and they got him from Green Bay I was like this is the greatest find of all time and then he never really did anything again and he ended up with the Vikings at the end of his career Minnesota guy right I think as well or he went to is he gopher or there's some Minnesota connection I think with Bryce Popp isn't there he wasn't a gopher I think was he Minnesota? I don't know. I seem to remember some sort of Minnesota connection, too.

But I know he did not play for the Gophers. I know that. I'm looking it up. I'm looking it up. Keep going. I'm going to find what the connection is here. Did he work here? He's from Iowa.

Right. Yeah. Okay. Yes, he did. He did. He was on the Gophers coaching staff in 2017 so there is a there is a connection he's an iowa guy and he and he worked on the coaching staff so there's your there's your bright everyone was wondering what's the bryce pop connection to

minnesota other than the fact that he's a viking there it is now you have your answer now you can sleep well that's kind of random. That was 2017. That was the PJ Flex first year. That's an interesting connection. Okay. Anyway, continue on with my list. Another guy that I came up with was Roy Barker. And the reason why is Roy Barker was a guy who played for the Vikings for a long time.

I think he either finished his career with the packers or he like went to the packers and then came back to the vikings to finish his career but you know roy barker with the vikings he was just kind of like a guy just kind of this okay you know defensive end kind of a pass rusher he'll get you know four or five sacks a season then he goes to san francisco and he just like randomly has like a couple of like double digit sack seasons, like 12, 12 and a half sacks for like a couple of years with the Niners. And then I think he ended up in green Bay for like a season.

But yeah, I, I always like as a kid, I remember Roy Barker just kind of being, you know, when I'm nine, 10 years old and I don't know enough about football yet I'm just kind of watching all these Vikings players and they're just like everything to me so like even though these guys are kind of like some of these guys are just kind of guys they're just mediocre players but they're just like oh Roy Barker's awesome you know that type of thing um so he's on my list and then another guy I had uh Jim McMahon man like Jim McMahon, man. Like, Jim McMahon, you know, obviously everybody knows him as the Chicago Bears quarterback when they had that great team in 85 and won the Super Bowl with a great defense.

But, you know, Jim McMahon came in with the Vikings in 93 and stepped in as a starting quarterback and got them to the playoffs. And the guy just played his tail off in that wildcard game against the Giants and just got beat up and hit. And, you know, he hung in there as best he could. And then, you know, the Vikings end up losing that game. Then he goes on, I think he had maybe one stop after that and then went to Green Bay.

And he was on that Packers team that won Super Bowl XXXI. I i think he was brett farm's backup when they beat the patriots in the super dome um so jim mcmahon is is the guy too that just just like the coolest dude right just said that had the shades and just like super super cool um so yeah there there's my list well i can't really add to that list because i think those are all the best ones. Robert Ferguson, you could throw out there. If you wanted to be funny, you might mention Bashad Breeland played for the Packers and also was a Viking as well. Todd Bauman, very briefly, a Green Bay Packer.

I think when Aaron Rodgers got hurt and he got signed there, there's some really kind of like random and funny ones. I think you hit probably the best. packer i think uh when aaron rogers got hurt and he got signed there there's some really kind of like random and funny ones i think you hit probably the best keith millard very briefly uh a packer right is that right after the whole knee thing and everything else and uh of course next year aaron rogers will be stop it stop it manny it had to be said it had to be done um and i did not realize i did not realize that jan stenerood was also a green bay packer as well one of the greatest kickers of all time so there's there's some extra notes for you when i when i was looking up this list of just because i just

got a list and you know i knew a lot of guys already you know robert ferguson corn robinson is another one too you could probably talk about greg Greg Jennings, obviously. But I did not realize I knew he had gotten drafted by the Vikings in the in the mid 80s and was, he was Brett Favre's backup in 1997 when they went to the Superbowl and lost to the Broncos. I'd forgotten about that. And then I saw that on the list. I was like, Oh yeah, Steve Bono. That's, that's right. So there's another one. You ever notice Manny recently that commercials are kind of targeted toward people our age where you'll see like characters from the office in a commercial or you know like nostalgia stuff old songs things like

that and you go hey wait a minute I think that they're targeting all their marketing to me now like instead of my parents and references from the 70s or whatever, now it's like us. That's what this show has been over the last like 20 minutes. If you are older than like 34, then this was perfect for you and probably a lot of fun. We target it exactly toward you. Let's finish up with this. I want to know if you think they're going to win and where it goes from here. But first, we got to talk about prize picks. If you were watching last night, prize picks.

I made my selections. I went over with KJ Osborne with more yards for KJ Osborne and more yards for Kirk Cousins in this game, because I think that they're going to throw the ball lots. And I also think they're going to try to cover the heck out of Jordan Addison. So there will be yardage out there for KJ Osborne and Kirk Cousins. And what I mean when I talk about this is with prize picks, you go to prizepicks.com and you just pick more or less with the yardage or with touchdowns, or even sometimes with field goals. And there's all sorts of sports as well. You got the NBA starting the NHL, so you can do a lot, but with football specifically, we've been having a great time picking Kirk cousins each week. Will he go more or less for his yardage total? So go

to prize picks.com slash purple, use the code purple for a first deposit match up to $100. And I put in 20 to win a hundred on my pick. I mean, it's, it's not a lot that you have to put down to win a decent amount of money. If you hit on your more or less selections. So go there. Prize picks.com slash purple.

Use the code purple for first deposit match up to $100 and enjoy daily fantasy sports made easy, where you don't have to spend all day on your fantasy team. What do you think, Manny? You think they're going to win? I do think they're going to win. I do think it's going to be competitive. I think it's going to be close.

It might even be ugly at times just because a lot of times you just don't really know what you're going to see out of either one of these teams. But I do think they're going to find a way to win. I think the Vikings are feeling really good about themselves. They, you know, they played so well on Monday night. Kirk Cousins played really well. The defense was terrific. And I think they're just, I think they're a little more confident now you know going forward now can they sustain it that'll be kind of the question going into this game but I think they're feeling

pretty good I think they're going to carry some of that momentum from last week into this one they're going to find a way to win could be ugly at times just because it's it's a weird game against a team that's not very good but I I i'll say the vikings find a way to win this game 24 to 20 trying to call my shot here and be very bold and say the vikings win by two scores which shouldn't be bold in the nfl because other teams do it all the time. It's amazing to me how rarely the Vikings get to 30 points also. And I was watching, you know, Cleveland with a backup quarterback have more than 30 points and Indianapolis with a backup quarterback. And I'm going like, why is it that they can never put somebody away,

run away, get 30 plus points and be dancing off the field at the end? I think that this is this week that Jordan Love has a couple of real bad picks or fumbles and Brian Flores plays games with his head the whole time and they have a really good win and carry over what they did in San Francisco. And then we start talking about, do they buy as opposed to sell? Can they win the division? Can they track down Detroit? Can this be one of the outlier seasons where a team goes from all in three to the playoffs if they do not do that if they come up short here then it's a then it's going to be a Denny Green moment we you are what we thought you were an inconsistent roller coaster team that can't put together multiple performances

and you're never going to get better than say eight and nine so say goodbye to your pass rusher and we'll see you next year it's a i'm in a weird spot with this manny because i will get emails all the time where people say i hope they i hope they lose this week so they don't fool themselves into thinking they're a super bowl contender. And I feel you as, as the, the master commander of tank land, I ride the tank and I drive it. And yet at the same time, when I get that email, I go, Oh, it just doesn't, it just doesn't feel right though. There's because if you're going to tank, then that means Flores didn't do his job. Then that means Addison didn't play well, or someone got hurt or something, or something went horribly wrong. If you can't get

back into the playoffs with this upcoming schedule, that means something went pretty wrong for you. That may not be reflective well of the future. So I ended up kind of conflicted over that whole deal of like, yeah, you're probably going to have to draft, you know, high if you want a good quarterback, because there's some good quarterbacks in this draft. And yet we got a whole season to play. Still, there's more games to play than have been played, even though it feels like we've been doing this forever this season.

Cause every game is like five games worth of drama with this Vikings team. But I just can't, I probably, I probably can't get to a point where I'm like, oh, yeah, well, they should start throwing away this season or you should hope that they just completely fall apart and collapse. It's go to be competitive, push for the playoffs, do everything you can to win if you beat the Packers. If not, I can't defend any of that.

Then it's like you got to start thinking toward the future. Yeah, I can't defend any of that. Then it's like you got to start thinking toward the future. Yeah, I agree. And it's also kind of just as a, you know, with my mindset being kind of big picture. Yeah. I mean, would it probably serve them better if, you know, long-term big picture, if they went like 5-12 and had a higher draft pick and got in a position to get that young quarterback of the future and move on from Kirk Cousins. Yeah, but on the flip side, for as critical as I am of Kirk Cousins, I don't want to watch Nick Mullins play quarterback.

I'll do respect to Nick Mullins. I don't want to watch him play quarterback for the last eight, nine games of the season. So I want to see Kirk Cousins stay healthy, finish out the season and just kind of see, you know, because I also want to continue to see Jordan Addison develop and grow as a wide receiver, because that would be very beneficial for them long term. And Jordan Addison will have more success if Kirk Cousins is his quarterback versus Nick Mullins so you know and the same kind of goes for Justin Jefferson if he ends up coming back

later in the season so I want to see those guys perform really well and and and continue to develop as as we go along here so yeah I'm I'm really kind of conflicted on the entire thing too, because I know them kind of going into tank mode would kind of serve them better long-term, but I also don't really just add the fan in me doesn't want to really like see that happen because to your point, it means that, you know, certain guys within the organization that they just didn't do a good enough job. And that I don't you know, I want Brian Flores to be successful as a defensive coordinator here because I want him to be able to stick around. And, you know, and as kind of a fan of him, I want to see him maybe get an opportunity to be a head coach again down the line. Well, that will come if he continues to be a really good defensive coordinator here.

So, yeah, it's it's a tricky situation, to say the line. Well, that will come if he continues to be a really good defensive coordinator here. So yeah, it's, it's a tricky situation to say the least. We can't control it. We can only watch and see what happens and then break it down next week. So you will be back on your normal schedule since there's not Monday night football. So we'll talk again on Monday night, break it all down and what it means from there. And, you know, we'll see what happens. But I'm not, I guess I got to know, I got to have more information. I'm not ready to say what I think they should do.

I think there's a lot of arguments for if this, then that, kind of like a choose your own adventure. But we have to know the result of what happens next to know what their playoff odds really are if they win this game it might be like 60 percent uh if they lose this game it might be like 15 i think there's that big of a difference for one game for what you could do for the rest of the year so great stuff manny a lot of fun as always um the bucks are still losing but they they're like no no, actually, they're getting killed now. So they tied it up at 10, and I was ready to apologize.

I'm like, oh, sorry, Bucs. I didn't mean it, what I said. No, I mean it. The Bucs are terrible, and the Vikings losing to them is a shame. They're down by 14. Anyway, I can't say more about the game, or Jeff Bezos will sue me. So thanks, everybody, for watching, and we will see you again very soon. Football.