Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Mike Renner goes deep on Caleb Banks, Vikings GM path

Episode Date: May 6, 2026

CBS Sports NFL analyst Mike Renner analyzes Caleb Banks' ceiling and floor and gives great details about how Banks can get there and what might get in his way. Plus two Vikings draft picks Renner loved and how the next Vikings GM has to build the team in order to be successful. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

All right, Mike Renner of CBS Sports. You've had them on the show many times. And one of the reasons is, Mike, I think you've got one of the best eyes in the industry for details about players. So I want to dive deep into the details of Caleb Banks. I also want to offer you the Vikings GM job. And we'll see where you take the Vikings build from there. But let's just start with on draft night when you had set up your board and your expectations. did you have Caleb Banks going as high as he did?

I did not. I think it's safe to say. And truthfully, and as bad as two different things to this. One obviously is the injuries, which made me think that even the NFL, even like the people who were so high in him before all the injuries, I thought would sour on him when the guys had two foot surgeries

over the last nine months, right? And that he would probably fall to the second, potentially even farther. I could have seen the Jamad McCoy-esque fall, right? Just like off every day. board because of those feet the foot injuries and you just take them later on so for him to not you know be back on teams boards as high as he was I was surprised about that from the injuries but then even from an on field perspective I had big concerns about his talent translating to the NFL consistently now

I think he's somewhat of a high floor player because he is so explosive in imposing at that size but I don't see this theoretical ceiling that people are talking about so even if he was fully healthy he never had the foot injuries, which obviously you can't say, but just like, just from the tape I saw on him, I would have had him more as a day two guy as probably like a back end of the top 50 sort of player, just because, I mean, a historically unproductive prospect, right? 13 career run stops at college, right? He is not done much other than high-end flashes. So I was not an 18th overall pick guy, but again, I know some people I respect that work.

Like, he was a polarizing prospect. Anytime a guy is unproductive but highly gifted, that's kind of the stereotypical boomer bust prospect. So, yeah, I mean, when you talk about being, maybe not having the ceiling, it feels like that's why the Vikings swung for it. I mean, their argument was that in terms of physical traits, he was one of the few guys in this draft,

which was light on blue chip talent, that would have the potential to reach a ceiling where he could be a top-notice. player. And I think it's one of those things why you shouldn't watch highlight reels, but I think we're all guilty of watching highlight reels. Nobody has time to watch, you know, other than draft analysts, 200 players of their entire games. But if you watch his highlight reel, you could certainly be talked into Caleb Banks becoming a top player. I mean, do you think that the Vikings coaching staff looked at those high end moments and the size and said, we are the ones that have the answers to what

ails him in Florida from being that consistently productive player. Yes. And that's, these used to happen a lot more. I think coaches have gotten a little bit more humble in their evals, but it used to be like, you know, every guy who was a project, coach just assumed that they could fix them, right? But I do think why I disagree with that with Banks specifically is I think he has

physical limitations to the position that is why he was inconsistent already. I mean, incredible high-end reps. I'm not even going to debate that. Like his ability to get off the ball, fire off into contact, low, just dominant reps that, again, no one else in this class could match the defensive tackle position. Crazy. But I go to the senior ball and just his tape in general

and why he was so inconsistent is he's six foot six. He's actually over six foot six, right? He is incredibly tall for a defensive tackle. I don't think he has the consistent bend to stay low throughout his reps, when he doesn't win on contact. And I thought at the senior ball specifically is where I saw, you know, he's gotten kind of Chris Jones comes because Chris Jones is the DT that you want in that frame.

He does not have the lateral agility and does not have the bend to the edge that Chris Jones does. And you saw the senior bowl and the one-on-ones, when he got, you know, kind of wins on contact to the edge of an offensive lineman, he had to like regather himself and couldn't just dip and rip to the edge. You just don't see that a bit. on his tape. And that's, again, why I don't think the ceiling is there. Because if you don't have that

body control, don't have that level of flexibility throughout your frame, you're not going to be Chris Jones. So he's, again, he's going to have very high end reps. And if he is a true one gap player, true penetrator, he'll get into the backfield a lot. I just don't see a finisher of plays. He'll be more of a disruptor. But again, for all those reasons, I was just a little lower on him. Yeah, and when I was watching him, the thing that was a little bit concerning to me was just the getoff. And they call it. I mean, there's a lot of times where the ball is snapped and the quarterback has taken his first step and there's still two giant paws on the ground. Now, I don't see a lot in the NFL where they have that four point stance just because things happen so quickly.

Like, you need to get out of your stance quicker. But I wonder about how much of that has to do with just identification. I remember Rick Spielman talked about this with defensive tackles, and I've seen it play out with Linval Joseph, very high football IQ. Delvin Tomlinson was an incredibly smart person. I think was, I think Harvard recruited him, and he was really, really football smart. And I'm not saying Caleb Banks isn't a smart person, but I think that a lot of getoff is also identification,

it's understanding cadences, it's understanding formations and all that sort of stuff, that when someone has peak number of snaps, a season is in the low 400s and he has not yet reached a thousand. I just think that that's going to be a journey to try to get him there. I feel like he's someone just because of his size that you can put in right away, but I'm not sure you could ask him to be at three technique and identify this, that, this, that, this, that before the snap. It's kind of going to have to be, I feel like, simplified early on.

And then going into year two, your start of, okay, now you need to build on those things. but was that something that you saw as well? Yes, and I do think that is something that's fairly sticky from my just watching of players from college the pros. If a guy is late to the snap consistently, and I think you see it most in the same division, Gervon Dexter was that guy at Florida. You see it with the Bears now. And I saw like a cut up of Bears fans like upset about how lady is off the snap. It's like, that was him at Florida. You know, like that sometimes guys just don't have that whatever it takes.

So that is, yes, worrisome, I will say with him. And again, it probably can't improve, probably will improve, but like you're not going to be T.J. Watt at the snap, right? You're never going to get to that level. Those guys were special already. So, yeah, I do think he's much more of a project than I would like for a guy who's a fifth year coming out. And the stat I kept saying all draft season, which I think is layers,

is he played fewer snaps in his career than DeForest Buckner did as both a junior and a senior. And DeForest Buckner played more snaps in his single seasons. then he did, then Banks did in his entire career, which is just like, the guy needs to play more football. I had a lot of trouble finding comparable players at this size who didn't produce that well from the first round. Because I went back 10 years of first round defensive tackles. And I mean, I found guys that were big, giant and tall. But even like a Dexter Lawrence, PFF grade wise, quarterback pressure wise, was kind of on a different level.

And then the Chris Jones comparison. I mean, it's just not even remotely close. Like Chris Jones at his final year of college was totally dominant when it came to being a pass rusher. And then I just am struggling to understand how a person this size couldn't make more of an impact in the run game. But what I noticed in watching his games is that even college guards got underneath him, as you mentioned. And it felt like anytime he got double teamed, there was kind of this like, oh, you got me to Caleb Banks. So it feels like there's just a ton of work to be done for the coaching staff. But you mentioned a high floor.

And I guess I haven't been talking about it so much that way. The way I've been talking about it is more of if he reaches 75% of his potential, that's a really effective NFL player who, you know, Garrett Bradbury is not going to enjoy playing against or whatever interior offensive lineman. There's not that many good guards in the league. Like, good luck with this 6 foot six guy. But in terms of the floor, like what do you think the floor? Like, what do you think the floor could look like?

I say high floor because you know he's not going to go in and just be out of place, right? He will at least be able to disrupt off the snap into the backfield for certain reps. Like, if he gets a 101 and he gets a clean, like, there's just, there's nothing you can do as an offense alignment, unfortunately. So that's why I say high floor, but you could see a high floor and a guy who's like very up and down. And that's you'll high floor and that you'll get high end reps, but you'll also get maybe some low end reps with it. So that's what I kind of mean when I say high floor with him is that there's just not really a risk of outside of the injury risk of him. Just going in the NFL and it's like, okay, we got sold to bill of goods.

This guy really doesn't have anything. Right. So that's usually like low floor is guys which is bad athletes or like middling athletes that go higher than they should have because of whatever reason. And I think a big part of it. a two for them, and this is fair, is that they spend a lot of time with him, and they believe that he's very coachable. Now, that can also be, you know, you and I have analytic brains. So immediately we kind of go, all right, but doesn't every coaching staff who reaches on a player believe more in that player than maybe they should or more in themselves that maybe they should. But when you have

Brian Flores, I do feel like we have to make adjustments to the way that we approach things, where when they do stuff we don't fully get, there is some benefit of the doubt, I think that is deserved for Brian Flores. And at least from my sense, this is just a guess on my part. Nobody really told me this. But I feel like he's going to play early pass rushdowns,

maybe like a four-eye or five kind of technique, because this is just a different defense where they're going to play three defensive tackles and two outside linebackers. I feel like the just understanding of how play fit within his defense, the different stuff that they do. It gives this a better chance to succeed than if he went to, I don't know, the Arizona Cardinals and they just said, hey, go be the best.

I don't know what the Arizona Cardinals do for their coaching. But you understand where I'm getting at. Yes, that he gets drafted where he did and that you wouldn't be that high in him unless you saw a clear role to fit him into. So, yeah, I agree with that line of reasoning. It was something I said about Kenyon and Sadeek. I was like, wherever Kennedy City goes, you're probably going to love him because it means that the staff had a plan for him in place because you wouldn't draft him otherwise. So that's, I think, how I feel about Caleb Banks this makes.

Like, they obviously have a plan, which is what he needs. So what would you have done at 18? Like, who did you want? I mean, I saw, I think you were the one that tweeted like, man, this, I think there's more Vikings, Dylan Thineman than there is Fernando Mendoza Raiders, which is interesting because I never liked that fit a ton. I did not think he was Harrison Smith. Not when you're 20 pounds lighter than Harrison Smith. And I didn't see him as a player who could really play in the NFL in the box. One of those things we like to do is like, oh, here was this college usage.

He'll just do it in the NFL. Done work that way. So I think he's going to be good for Chicago. I just don't think that he was the fit that people thought he was. But who did you kind of have if it was you on the board on the clock and you're not taking banks, where would you have gone? Yeah. So I was right there with you. I didn't love Thinemann.

I don't know. I'd rather have Banks, but I think Banks has a little bit, can make more of an impact in that defense. So didn't hate that they didn't go that way. I would have gone probably for them Casey Concepcion. He was top player on my board at that point. Actually,

a second player of my board behind Aviontrell, but I knew Aviont would fall. And so Concepcioni knew you wouldn't be able to get in the second round. So that's probably where I would have gone, just because I think he's, would have been awesome as a third wide receiver in that offense. Like it would have been a lot of fun. It's just impossible to guard all three of those guys.

So that's where I would have leaned. But we'll see. Yeah, we'll be the GM in a minute. Mackay Lemon being there, Casey Concepcion, I liked Denzel Boston more than other people, but wide receiver is always kind of my position that I think that the Viking should always draft because the more weapons you have, the more impossible you are to stop.

and now we're talking about maybe overpaying Joanne Jennings or getting DeAndre Hopkins. It's just not as enticing as like a top young talent in the first round. But they decide to take the big swing. And where I will say too is when you look around the league, it's pretty hard not to miss it, right? That I mean, look at Philly. Look at the interior. Look at Seattle. Look at the interior.

The Vikings have been running out either guys who were 30 something years old who didn't want to stop the run or Harrison Phillips and Jonathan Bullard, who are, you know, run stuffers but are 295 pounds. Like to get some actual meat into the middle, I think was something that is necessary in the way the game is played. Let's just look at the rest of the draft. I thought the rest of it was very logical and it was pretty safe and you could see exactly where each player fits in. Caleb Tiernan was probably the one that surprised me the most. but then when you look at their future at right guard and right tackle, you go, okay, I can see exactly why they would do that in the third.

But was there one pick for them in your mind where it stuck out for either reasons that you liked or reasons where you were confused? See, I love the Tiernan pick because to me, he's a great swing tackle and probably one of the, probably the guy drafted on day two that could start the quickest. And just look at what railroaded their season last year, right? outside of quarterback play. But like, yeah, one injury at tackle, and they were screwed last year. So that raises the floor a lot in that regard.

So I really like that. And again, I think he could play guard if you need them to as well. So that was probably my favorite pick of theirs on day two. The Jacoby Thomas pick, I was, it felt like, and now they weren't the only ones, but it felt like they were drafting a special teamer at that point in time. I just did not see Jacoby Thomas as a starting safety. And I thought he was the worst tackler in the strap class truth. So that one was like wild to me that that was there, you know, how they ended up addressing

safety because everyone's like round one safety, round one safety. How are they replaced Harris Smith? I thought it was a good safety class to do it. But that was not where I would have gone. Yeah, Thomas had a remarkably high mistackle rate for somebody who is a safety. He missed 18 tackles last year, which is almost 20%. And that's usually you don't see safeties at that level. But let's talk more about the.

Tiernan pick. I think that the most underrated super stupid valuable thing in the NFL is backup offensive lineman. If tell me which team had 100% health all the way through a 17 game season, I doubt there was one. And there's someone and I would love to credit them. I just can't remember who it was that put out the chart of like how often the starting five played together for each team. And the top teams are like 58%. And the worst teams are like 20%. And the worst teams are like 20. 20%, like the chargers or whatever, who seem to always have offensive linemen going down like flies. So getting Tiernan in here, along with signing Ryan Vandemark, I feel like is very important for them. I also think that I don't know how you feel about tiny armed people.

I have short arms personally, so I take it personally. But I feel like every other skill that this guy has, his explosiveness out of his stance, his strength, his size, his past protection. It all fits, except for that he has short arms. So maybe you did well to get someone like that in the third round. I thought this year's day two of tackles. So as Mark Elbelle, Trezune, him were, I would have loved to take a day two tackle this year because I thought all of them were,

usually day two tackles are like Kieran Amagaji, right? They're like the high-end project athlete guys. This year was the opposite. It's very good football players who maybe have, have some real fatal flaw to their profile. And with Tiernan, you know, 32 and a quarter inch arms, now everyone's arms measuring shorter, but even just like he has shorter arms. So it's going to be tough for him to really stay at offensive tackle.

But I doesn't think he could given his tape. And I thought he's played really well last year, you know, even against like top guys. I thought he went against the Oregon duo that's probably, you know, potential top 50 guys next year. I thought he handled them really well. And those are guys who are longer defensive ends that you would theoretically struggle with. So I was very impressed.

I had them 53rd to my board. and he fell to there. So he's a, he's a guy that I, I could even be your, again, right tackle plan for the future. Any, uh, intrigue with Jake Golda, Dominique Orange, either one of those guys. I was, um, I was, I was,

I was very high on the idea of Gold Day in this defense. So that was someone I had circled before the draft and, I was happy with that pick. But Dominique Orange, I was not quite as sold on where they got him is fine. But just watching. watching him play, you kind of expect when you see the big nose tackle that the center is going to just be running into the quarterback because he's thrown back by so much power.

I didn't really feel that with Dominique Orange. I don't know where you stood on him. I was actually lower on Orange than where he came off the board. So I was, some people were really high on him. Some people were like Packish fans wanted him at 52. And I never saw that. I was with you. But he has really good feet for a guy who's 320.

I think that's where he wins. He's not a powerful nose tackle. And I think, you know, the Packers made the right decision to go click Chris McClellan for what they wanted in their defense. But for the Vikings, you know, he can get into the backfield probably a lot better than Chris McClellan. So that's, I think for both, they probably got the guy that was a bit more suited for their schemes. Goldie I love, though. That guy, I think is, you know, the next coming of Anthony Barr. I think that's kind of who he is, is just this guy who can rush like an edge, drop into coverage.

real speed to go sideline to sideline and still kind of learning the position, you know, only a few years at true offball linebacker. And he was playing overhang at Cincinnati, which is a tough position in college. Those guys are more often not like 215. They look like safeties. They are not 240 plus pound former edge rushers that play the overhang because you got to guard slot receivers in coverage. You got to do a lot of different things.

And you got to play in space. Like everything he was doing was out in space. So I think that's going to really suit him. well transitioning to the NFL, especially this defense. So I think that was really good pick. When I looked at his PFF data initially, because the way to identify Flores players is to look at where they lined up. And I was like, slot snaps.

So that like, I have to go find this. I have to go find some Cincinnati games to figure out why he was playing in the slot. But when he would drop back in coverage, very nimble feet, getting his head around, identifying where the ball is going. I mean, getting his hands up in, you know, certain areas, breaking up passes and things like that. Like, that's not stuff you see from an edge rusher, definitely. And then he would be inside linebacker at times, which was a little less of a good fit for him, but he could do it. And there's a few pass rush reps that are pretty darn impressive, dipping the shoulder.

It's got explosiveness, athleticism. I just felt like he was a little bit of a master of none type of prospect, which for a lot of teams, they might go, well, I don't know where we're going to put him. but for the Vikings, they just figured it out. See, I was, I just think this is where the NFL is going, is these kind of linebackers. You know, like not just the Vikings, but a lot of teams around the NFL,

you want the guy who, when he rushes the pastor, when he comes as down as a blitzer, it's just like adding on a third edge rusher. Those are the guys you want as an offball linebacker because they have to be accounted for in every play. These give you so much flexibility. So I was, he was my linebacker, too, actually. I call calling Arvill a recent linebacker one.

This guy was my linebacker two behind Sunny Stiles. So, yeah, I was big fan of his game. Oh, wow. Yeah. I mean, I just thought that the athleticism was probably a little overlooked for him because he went to Cincinnati and had come from Central Arkansas. And if he had transferred to Georgia or USC or something or maybe a bigger school, I think he would have probably got a little more attention.

Not USC because he would have got terrible coaching there. But yeah, I know what you mean. I just picked a bigger school. I had to do it. Okay, let's shift gears a little bit because we have, we've grinded this draft down and now we need to see them put jerseys on and stuff. The Minnesota Vikings are amidst the very normal May general manager search. And let's say that the Welfth ownership calls you as a candidate and they say, look, Mike, I know you're a lifelong Packer fan. But what if we could convince you to come be the general manager of the Minnesota Vikings?

I want to start off with just their current state and then get into some philosophy stuff because you've studied team building so much for so many years. From a current state, they are in a spot where they've run themselves to the end of a timeline. And there's a lot of veterans. There's a lot of older free agents. But they have this situation with Kyler Murray on $1.3 million deal. We don't know if he's going to be the quarterback of the future.

I think we're in a spot where we could say it's probably not. not going to be J.J. McCarthy, but you never really know with the National Football League. You get hired by the Minnesota Vikings. They convince you to put on that purple. And what is your first, not move, but plan? What is your first plan that you are presenting to the front office and coaching staff of where this franchise is going to go into the future? It's a great plan. I mean, the plan is at this point, it's Kyler Murray. It is. the plan. That's that's where I'm I'm trying to do whatever it takes to build this offense around him and for him to be going in the future our starting quarterback because it's hard, as Vikings fans

fortunately know, to really find that guy, even if you have a top 10 pick, even if it's a great quarterback draft, it ain't easy. And even if, you know, even if you find that guy, sometimes it could take three or four years for it to really happen. So Kyler has shown high end in the past. he's obviously hasn't done it in a few years, but it's so cheap right now. And even if he did play well this season, I think it would still be relatively cheap compared to other guys across the NFL. Like he's not going top of the market,

even if he has a top 10 quarterback season this year, you'd probably still get, you know, the Sam Donald discount that he ended up signing for. So because of that, like that's your best bet. And so the plan is how do we make Kyle Murray's life the easiest, and it's it's investing more and that's why i would have said casey conceptionis

kiler at his best 2020 2021 was a downfield passer that that's where he wins it's hard for him to just be an effective quick game guy at his size and it's never really been that's never really been who he is so they have the talent to do it i just would add you know just add made really foolproof this offense in terms of receiving talent to get explosive plays because when you do have Kyler Murray and when he's that nimble as a runner, getting a lot of explosive plays. You can generate a lot of explosive plays. So I think that's my first plan is how do we get more speed, more downfield weapons to really fit what Kyler does. And that will make everyone's life easier. Yeah, I mean, it has to start, I think, with signing a veteran wide receiver to fill out that room, not just because you need a number three wide receiver, but I bring this up all the time. Receivers get hurt too. And you need someone who can play up. Jalen Naylor was capable of playing up and Joanne Jennings would be capable of playing up. There's not that many guys who can. I mean, if you sign DeAndre Hopkins, it's hard to ask,

hey, go be wide receiver two for like four weeks or something. That's just hard to do at this age. So passing up on a wide receiver for the entire draft, that was my one gripe with it because if someone goes down, who exactly is playing? So acquiring somebody right away and then long term trying to figure that out as well to get a quality wide receiver three to be around Kyler. But I want to talk about the idea of going into this with the sense that you'll,

best case scenario, sign him to a long-term contract extension. At one point in our lives, if you signed a mid-quarterback, a 12th best quarterback in the league to a big extension, you were the dumbest people of all time and you were going to fail and your life was over. I don't think that that's true anymore, Mike, because of the way that contracts are structured when Kirk signed his it was fully guaranteed there was nothing they could do there was no reworking that thing and now not only the addition of void years that kind of started during the pandemic to be a huge thing but just the guarantee structures in general the owners won't that

battle and it feels like now you can work out a contract with kailer murray that his first couple years won't even top 30 million dollars in salary cap hits so it's much easier to do and then like Seattle did, it's on you to build out the rest of your roster around that player, knowing what you have a quarterback. Yeah, and you look at the deals of like a Baker Mayfield, a Sam Darnold, they're not even, they're not even defensive end money, you know, at this point. They are less than that. So that if you can get a guy in that range, it really is just like another high-end position

player. And obviously, quarterback's not just any other position. So I do think there is starting to carve out a mid-tier at the quarterback position that we've thankfully gotten enough bad GMs out of the NFL that not every new quarterback signs stop the market. And there's a real mid-tier that you can compare and get a guy like Kyla Murray to sign into, I would bet. Because also like the money is also getting so crazy that quarterbacks, how are you going to turn down $100 million over three years? It's like, okay, yeah, I want more than that. That's still a crazy amount of money that a decade ago, it wasn't that kind of life-changing money the way it is now for the mid-tier.

I was looking at the odds on Fandul for the Vikings to win the conference. They are plus $2,700, which is the ninth best odds in the NFC, which is not anything surprising to Vikings fans or followers, that they are sort of perpetually, the 7, 8, 9 projected going into every season. There's only a couple times that I can remember where, over the last 10 years that I've covered them, that they went into a season as any sort of favorite to win the NFC. How does the Mike Renner administration break the purple out of mediocrity, but like good

mediocrity, not Arizona Cardinals' mediocrity or Jacksonville Jaguars mediocrity, but like, I know they won last year, but like, you know what I mean? This perpetual, hey, they should win 10 games and they probably don't have enough to really compete for a Super Bowl. How do you get from midpoint to excellent? It's tough. I mean, it comes down to the draft, truthfully. That's anyone. How do you get over the hump is draft and fill out this roster with cheap, rookie deal talent?

That's the secret sauce for everyone across the NFL. I mean, look at the Seahawks last four drafts. They added basically all, you know, that entire, you had two starting tackles, the number one wide receiver, you know, a top borderline all pro defensive tackle. Like you, you added so much talent over four drafts that you didn't have to pay much money that you could go sign a quarterback. You could go trade for top tier DT. You could go out and then refill the roster because free agency happens every year, right?

You can always go add talent if you want to pay enough for it. You can't get talent cheap unless you do in the draft. So it just comes down to really hitting one, two, three. You know, it's first, second, third round every year. You stack four years of one, two, three. You have 12 players on your roster that are competent quality starters, that you're not paying like competent quality starters. And you can figure out the 10 other spots.

That's just the way of the NFL. So that's, unfortunately, it's not, you know, no quick fix. it's just let's draft better and let's get more draft picks when we can because again 12 competent stars on rookie deals all of a sudden you are a Super Bowl team. It feels to me like methodical would be the word where it doesn't always have to be rip it all the way to the screws, although that certainly helps if you're the Chicago Bears, you could tear it all the way down, draft your superstar number one quarterback and a bleep ton of other players and then spend money in free agency.

but the way that Seattle did it and they certainly benefited from the Russell Wilson trade a lot in this whole thing but it was a process like year after year just sort of stacking stacking stacking and then it got to this point where everything went their way they were healthy darn old played unbelievably well in the NFC

championship and then you're a champion right I feel like what often happens with the Vikings Mike is that they they sort of rush the process a little bit it's like oh we had a little success let's go crazy. We're there. And it's like there's probably some,

there's probably some partying metaphor in there where it's just like, it's Friday night. We're going to go insane. There's a whole weekend. And, you know, there's a whole window that you're trying to win in, not just 2025 where you go spend like drunken sailors and free agency. I think that they have to understand that from the ownership down to the next general

manager is that the transition you're going to have out of this. roster into the next one will probably take some time and you can still win well doing it but it's not going to be hey let's just let's just resign everybody keep everybody because we won 11 games with kiler uh i feel like that's what they're probably going to do though well i i think the ceox is a very interesting case study because john schneider the first time around first super bowl it's exactly what he did we want a super bowl push it to the limit traded like three straight first rounders where we got this awesome roster. We're just going to keep winning.

This time around, they had like the fifth most cap space in the NFL going this offseason. Who did they sign? They didn't do anything with it. They resigned their guys. They resigned their core team and filled out some holes through the draft. It was a weird draft. They may have reached on guys, but that was like the holes they had.

And they said, we're the best team in the NFL. We're going to stay, you know, in the mix. Maybe we don't win one next year, but we're set up well for the future because of it. Instead of trading away maybe your first rounder for a proven player, giving out some big deals in free agency because he had the money. And then all of a sudden, two years from now, you're like, okay, we've got to cut a bunch of guys. They'll be, they're not cutting anyone. They're not losing any core player from this team anytime soon.

So the Seahawks, I think John Schneider learned from the first time around that long-term success comes from consistent long-term decision-making. And the more you do that, the more your chance of catching that, one lightning in a bottle a year because it's always lightning at a bottle when you win a Super Bowl, right, or get there is just higher when you have more bites of the apple. Last thing for you, Mike, just going back to those odds on Fandul. The Detroit Lions are the favor to win the division at plus 145. It's very close with Green Bay plus 230 and Chicago plus 320.

The Vikings are last at plus 600, but all of those numbers are pretty squished close together. I think every one of these teams has a fascinating timeline because all the sudden Caleb Williams is good. And uh-oh, like the pressure is on. The heat is turned up. And with Green Bay, you talk about a team that suddenly has found itself trying to escape the middle. I don't think it was a life-changing off season for the Green Bay Packers this year, definitely was last year. And Detroit, they feel like they're on the other side of the mountain. I mean, when Dan Campbell said that was probably our only chance, I mean, he turned out to be,

I think, right, I don't know if they're a Super Bowl contender or not. Everybody feels like they should win 10 and no less than 8, but no more than 11. What do you make of the way that this division sets up for this year? Because I don't think that anybody in the draft changed their fate for 2026 either. I agree with that. I don't think it's funny, like we're going into next year. And the one team that feels different is the Vikings because of Calamari. Everyone else is like, it's got on the same team.

You know, like, where are they two different? I think the one thing that's interesting is just, can the lion stay healthy? I mean, they're the most injured defense in the NFL two straight years. And that's kind of like, hey, if they just stayed healthy, they're probably the best team. And now they have much easier scheduled than it did last year. So the lions, you see big gains on that roster just because of health. But I don't think the bears, I think last year they kind of pushed it. And this year, they feel like they're the same team.

I don't really see how the Bears got better. I don't see how they rush the pass or any better this year. And I don't see how their secondary is all of a sudden a world beater, you know, starting a rookie safety is always difficult. So I do think that, gosh, it just feels like we're heading into 2026, the same way 2025 end it. I mean, it really depends for me. The entire division rests on if Caleb Williams can drop back to pass and throw it to someone accurately, not run around make crazy stuff, not like have their screen game work really

well, but just doop, doop, dupe, and throw it to a wide open person accurately. Everyone is in trouble if that happens. If he continues to airmail every third pass to a wide open wide receiver, then everyone will be all right. But that's, there's been like a, there was a little bit, Mike here where people were wondering, well, could J.J. McCarthy have like a Josh Allen like next step for him? The answer is probably not with the way he throws the football. Caleb Williams, though, kind of could.

and that regression could be staved off. But I think that's the only way it happens because that roster did not get better. I agree. And that's the kind of the scary part about the Bears is that there is so much meat on the bone that Caleb left. You know, like he left a lot of plays on the field

as much as that he still made a bunch. There's a lot that he left. So what if he stops leaving him? You know, there's Ben Johnson is truly the best play caller in that division in a division full of insanely good play callers, right? It's probably one of the best in terms of office of play caller's side. I would still take Ben Johnson over anyone else just because his game plans and his ability to be multiple is insane comparatively.

And this again, you watch the tape and there are Caleb's leaving a lot. So I am curious to see how his development continues and cautiously, very terrified. All right, Renner. On the Pushing the Pile podcast, who are you guys? Who do you think is the Super Bowl? favorite right now. Like, who do you think we'll win the Super Bowl? This is a stupid May question, but why not? Like, who do you think is, should win the Super Bowl next year? I think the Broncos should. Oh, truthfully. They should. Yeah, they could have last year. Yeah. Why I say them is because I think

they'll just have an easier path than the NFC, which is just really tough. I think the Seahawks will really miss Clint Kubiak. I think he's an awesome play call. There's just no backfilling for a guy that good. I worry about the Rams and just Matt Stafford's health. Yeah. Like, you're in a very difficult division with quarterback who was awesome, but, you know, getting closer to 40. So because all that, the Broncos on the flip side are like, they get Jalen Waddle to basically be their biggest weakness from last year. It was just anyone besides Cortland Sutton on money downs.

That's only the only way Bo Nix was looking last year, you get another guy. And the guy who can actually be dynamic post-catch as well, which they were missing in that offense. So I think that was their biggest weakness. And this defense is just so good in that front floor. They rushed the passers so well. They have such a good secondary, just all across the board.

That should be even better with Shaday Barron in a year, too. So for all those reasons, I think the Broncos would be my pick right now. If I keep saying Josh Allen's going to get a Super Bowl every year, one year, I'll be right. One year. Last year, I was a strange referee call away. Actually, they probably got the call right. But I was a referee call away from being right with predicting the bills would go to the Super Bowl. and it did not happen.

And I mean, Josh Allen every single year. It's like one thing or another, 13 seconds. The best quarterback of the NFL has to win eventually. But yet, his general manager has decided that his grudge with the local media is so deep that he refuses to draft wide receivers until the fourth round. So I don't know. That feels like Joe Brady probably can't win the Super Bowl. I'm not sure.

I think they're going to regret firing Doug McDermott. I think he's a good head coach. I just do. Like to have the consistent success they did, and it was just bounces in the playoffs. I get that they never got over the hump, but like it was never a roster that should have gotten over the hump, in my opinion.

Like it was never like the best roster. It was always just Josh Allen either carrying him or Doug McDermott, putting a lot of lipstick on a pig with defenses that were underpowered. And then they got exposed when you actually faced a real quarterback in the playoffs, unfortunately. Doug McDermott is a small forward in basketball. That would be Sean McDermott. Ah, I always do.

I always do that. Creighton. I got that. I have a Doug McDermichersie from Creighton. Oh, really? Oh, wow. That's a deep. You should put that one in the back instead of the Notre Dame stuff.

That's a great poll. Mike, always great to get together with you. And you're hired as the general manager of the Vikings. They haven't asked me. I just, I just want to be on the committee. That's all I want.

I don't actually want to be the person that has to be responsible for everything. I just want a voice in the room. That's all I'm looking for. Anyway, great stuff. though and we will definitely do it again soon. Thanks, ma'am. For sure, Matthew. Thanks for having me, brother.