Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - More bad news on the Vikings injury report???? (Part 1)

Episode Date: October 3, 2025

Matthew Coller talks about Dallas Turner being the latest addition to the Vikings' injury report and Emily Leiker joins to break down position by position the game with the Browns, the Manny Hill drops by to talk about the big picture of the Vikings 2025 season. The Purple Insider podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider, Matthew Collar, here. And I'm going to start the show by telling you about my day. And then we'll get into your questions, comments. Emily Liker from the Star Tribune will join at 7 o'clock. Then at 7.30, Manny Hill is going to pick the schedule. We're also going to try to figure out tiers of teams, T-I-E-R, not the ones. ones that you have on Sundays, but which tier the Vikings fit in in the NFL now? So that's kind of laying out the show.

But this morning, I was doing a little bit of dealing with an insurance company and working my way through submitting a claim after I got rear-ended, mentioned that on the show the other day. So I'm working through that. Then recorded a couple of interviews, including with Emily Liker, all right, getting some work done, getting the Friday mailbag questions for the newsletter, Purple Inside dot football and then maybe you could tell you know went out and uh played a little nine holes got some sun out there today beautiful day came back got the injury report thought okay there shouldn't

be anything new on this injury wait a minute wait a minute when i opened that email from the viking's injury report i'm going through it all right okay we know about that guy we now what now what is this guy doing here and that was dallas turner dallas turner showing up as a DNP on Thursday, not practicing with an illness, which, who knows what the level of illness is, if that means he'll be able to practice tomorrow or not. But I mean, my gracious, when you go through this injury report, Christian Derisaw did not practice Wednesday or Thursday with rest. Now, we were told last week that he was going to probably have every Wednesday a DNP in practice for the rest of the season so not to get over the top with oh my gosh christian's not practicing you know whatever

but not practicing wednesday or thursday for christian derisaw and i was a tad concerned about how he was strained last week because he had to play 75 plays and again cincinnati he just sort of got his feet back in the water and he had a couple of nice reps but didn't have to do a ton to get the win and then they got him out of the game and they moved on. But 75 reps is a lot and a DNP for two straight days, not what you want to see from Christian Derasaw. And they could say, hey, it's part of the process and he's getting back and everything else.

And I know that they've talked about Harrison Smith a little bit that way as well, but not practicing two out of the three days before going up against Miles Garrett, not ideal. And then you go through the rest. Michael Juergens, once again, DNP, which sounds a lot like Blake Brandl is going to have to start at center for this team. He's never played center before in the NFL other than practicing, which is also not an ideal sign. And then you get down to the guys we know J.J. McCarty, Andrew Van Ginkle, we know those guys aren't going to practice. But then Dallas Turner as well. And if Dallas Turner cannot play or is limited in this game, then you're talking about getting down to Gabe Murphy and Bo Richter.

Now, this is a, this is a believe in Bo podcast. I mean, I have liked Bo Richter as a player for this team really since his first preseason. He did a great job on special teams last year. He's done a good job on special teams this year. And he's getting into the mix a little bit as an edge rusher. But if you're asking potentially Gabe Murphy and Bo Richter to play those snaps, I mean, we've gone completely off. the rails at this point when it comes to the backups talking about the third string

center, the third string guard, the fourth string or fifth string outside linebacker. Now, I don't know how severe the illness is or whether he'll be right back to practice tomorrow and then in the game, but at very least, even a midweek illness, not going to likely be at 100% when he goes into this game, even if he is recovered. I mean, any of you who have had any sort of sickness. I mean, you understand, right? That's not what you want to see. It's just more of a, probably not a panic thing,

but more of a, can you believe this? Can you believe that another guy ended up on the injury report after all the injuries that the Vikings have had? And I mean, I wouldn't be one to say, this is why you should have signed a veteran outside linebacker or something. I think that they did feel good about Murphy going into camp and then cutting him out of camp, put that in question a little bit, and now you lose Van Ginkle, there's a trickle-down effect,

but you can't have perfect depth across every single position. I mean, I went into this season feeling like the Vikings overall had very good depth compared to the rest of the teams in the NFL. We could look at, all right, the defensive tackle position, they felt their depth was good enough to move on from Harrison Phillips. That move is being questioned by the way they've played, not injuries, but just the way they've played against the run. linebacker felt really good about where Eric Wilson is at.

A couple of younger guys, you know, Chas Chambliss. He's an outside linebacker, but also Austin Keyes and Chamblis played a little inside. So you got some intriguing young players there. Safety behind Harrison Smith, Theo Jackson is Josh Mattelis and Jay Ward. I mean, you could go through the whole roster. You felt pretty good about most positions, but there's no answer to losing both of your centers. And you could look around and go, well, you know, maybe. be this veteran center. They could have signed that veteran center, but they expected to be able

to at least have Juergens, a guy that they've developed in KOC system for two years. And I think is done okay. I mean, I don't think it's been by any means the next Matt Burke or Jeff Christie or whoever. But, you know, I think that Jurgens has been not the biggest problem that they've had so far. But now if he's not going to be able to play and you're talking about Blake Brandl having to snap in the shotgun time and time again. It's hard for guys who are lifelong centers to do that, much less Brandel, who is also not exactly fitting of the size of most centers.

I mean, this guy was an offensive tackle in college. He is 6 foot 6, 6 foot 7. That's not the size type that you really want because you have to get low as a center. You're going up against guys who are usually 6-2, 6.3 that are quick. They can get around you. It is going to be quite a challenge. And then welcome to the National Football League, Joe Huber. We're on your side of the field. It's altogether possible Miles Garrett is going to run stunts at you, which is actually very likely. So not necessarily 100% Christian Derisaw, just playing his one and a half game or two and a half the game,

two and three quarters game against the Miles Garrett. Huber playing his first game ever. Brando playing his first game ever at that spot on the right side school who spent all the year at left tackle in the summer and now he's at right tackle. And now on the defensive side, there's even the potential for other outside linebackers to have to be used. Not that it was ideal in the first place to have Dallas Turner go from somebody who's playing 30 to 40 snaps at every point in his career to, hey, can you just go ahead and be Andrew Van Ginkle? Yeah, I know that that guy showed up with six or seven years of the NFL of training and played for Brian Flores before and hit the ground running and had played as a starter for many years. But maybe you could

just do all the Van Ginkle things like jump in front of a screen, pick it off, run for a touchdown. Come on. He was already being asked to do a lot because that was supposed to be a dynamic part of the defense where you could put Van Ginkle and Turner on the field at the same time cause a lot of discombobulation from the offense and disarray from quarterbacks, which I think did play into why things were so easy for Aaron Rogers to identify where to go with the football in Quick game because they didn't have Van Ginkle and Turner together moving around and at least it would scare Aaron Rogers because of what happened last year. And now you might not even have Turner at 100%. So coming off an illness overseas, is he going to be able to play?

60 snaps. That might be a very difficult to ask. So this team is going into this game against the Cleveland Browns really, really banged up. And even some of the guys who are going to be on the field, not necessarily at 100%. So there is your injury update. I guess we'll see what happens tomorrow. But my goodness. And tomorrow night, by the way, I'm going to be hosting on WCCO radio. So, but on the YouTube channel, there's Dave Campbell and I are actually doing a porch podcast. since we're both back here and it's really nice outside. We're going to record a porch podcast tomorrow. That'll be fun.

So the question of the day, Fandual question of the day, and I may have forgotten that the show presented by Fandul, sometimes I just jump right into the deep end of the conversation, but the show indeed presented by Fandul. And the Fandul question of the day is Jordan Mason's over under for this game is 67.5 on Fandual. How many yards does he need to make you feel comfortable

that the Vikings win this game. So if I told you Jordan Mason's stat line first, but I didn't tell you the result, how many yards would I have to tell you to feel comfortable? His over under being 67 and a half, for me that's probably at least 80, maybe even more than that, considering the state of the Vikings offensive line,

which is just a complete mess going into this game against Cleveland, couldn't be a worse opponent to have this happen against. and we should also get into this for your thoughts. It's just where where's your feelings right now on the confidence to win this game? Because when the schedule comes out, we all pick W every single time. We've had Manny. He's going to pick the schedule again later and it'll start with this game.

And I promise you Manny has picked the W every single time we've picked this game for the Minnesota Vikings to beat Cleveland Browns. But I was doing the fantasy show earlier with Mike Shope and we were talking about it and he said, you know, something about, you know, not really thinking it's insane to pick Cleveland for this game. And normally, I would have been like, how dare you? But with the injury report, the way that it is, the backup quarterback in place, the defense struggling against the run game, this is one where if you don't win, then all hell breaks loose. And you feel like everything is tumbling down and going to hell when the expectations were so high. If you do win this game, then it's sort of, all right, season's still on. Let's see what

happens and all that. It is a really enormous, enormous swing game for this team's entire season because trying to go from two and three to the playoffs is very difficult. If you can't beat Cleveland, if you can't beat Atlanta, if you can't be Pittsburgh, then why am I going to think that you're going to beat Philly, the Chargers, the Lions, the Packers? These are inferior your opponents that you need to get past. But I think that everybody's confidence level, the Vikings would beat the Cleveland Browns, when the schedule came out, and this is factoring in the typical fatalism and all that, would have been very high.

It would have been like 75%. Yeah, you should win that game, but, you know, they're the Vikings and there's no logical looking at this game and saying, oh, yeah, this could be more of a coin flip. The fact that it's only a three and a half point game on Fandul, and the Vikings are favored, but only by three and a half, I think really does tell you something about the viewpoint of this game from the outside world is like after last week, the Vikings are not a dead set guarantee to win. And if they had their whole roster, I would say it should be, you know, a 27 to 10 blowout. but now you have to wonder about just who this team really is with the number of injuries and now an illness that have happened. So give me a confidence level as well.

Like, are you fully confident? They'll take care of business or are you kind of shaking in the boots a little bit. So Abby, thank you for the super chat. Abby says since it's already a weird roster week, put in KOC a quarterback. I'd rather just have Max Brosmer would be. fine. I know that a lot of people want to see Max Brosmer at some point. Maybe you will. But Max is much better than than KOC. I've seen KOC throw the football quite a bit over the years. I don't think you want him at this age playing quarterback. Now, if he was still running the

4-5, then maybe he could get in there run around a little bit. I don't think he runs the 4-5 anymore. So horror movies for life says this isn't going to end well. And who would know better than you? as the horror movie person, but if they lose, it's going to feel like a horror movie. I don't know how to handle a postgame show on Sunday, which will be, you know, about 20 minutes after the game. I don't know how to handle a postgame show where they lose to the Cleveland Browns. Because last week, it was a real split of reaction to my postgame comments, which the short version was, uh-oh, after losing to.

Pittsburgh. And there were a lot of people who said, hey, yeah, that's exactly how I feel is it felt like the season pushed to the edge. And then there were a lot of people who said, you overreacted, you were way too negative. And I mean, I just give my opinion and then you take it however you're going to take it, usually based on what I saw in the facts. And it's crazy how it works like that, but not some angles specifically to be positive or negative, but just what I saw and what I think. And what I saw was a lot of problems that could potentially carry over and what I think is that it is pushed to the brink this season. And if you get to two and three, it's just really tough to see what the path would be to this team being very good. If they're three and two, then that's on the table.

But you have to factor in not just the W&L, the wins and loss three and two, two and three. You also have to factor that you would have lost to the Browns. Like that would mean three really bad losses. The Falcons, not a great team, a good enough team. So you can forgive some of that, but you couldn't forgive losing to a team following last week and that debacle in some ways in protecting the quarterback and getting the football out and stopping the run and all those things that went wrong. Coming off of that and then not being able to bounce back would also be more or less, I mean, it's hard to say it's a death knell. I mean, it's a long, long season. but it would be much more than a body blow to the season.

I mean, the season would be on the mat with its face down and the referee counting one, two, three. He's not a 10, but he's counting if you're down after losing the Cleveland Browns. And then there's uncertainty a quarterback and there's uncertainty with the health of the team and will you ever be 100% or even close on the O line? And all those things.

If you get a win, then you come in here for the post game and go, Okay. Season's still on. And then you go Kevin Garnett, I guess. Like anything is possible after that. But this is a big one. And you know, because I like to go into the history of the team and so forth, I felt the same way in 2017 when the Vikings were two and two and they traveled to Chicago, where it was like, if they lose to Chicago, that team was horrible at the time. Trabisky was actually, how funny is this? Trabisky was making his first start that night against the Vikings. so Dylan Gabriel is this week, and I thought the same thing. Like, if you win three and two, then you've got a chance for something to happen here. But if you go to two and three and you can't beat the Bears and a first time starting quarterback, this season's in a lot of trouble.

And they won that game and then got on a roll and Aaron Rogers got hurt and they went from there. So it is a long season still, but that's how it feels at the moment. And when someone called horror movies on YouTube here is saying it's not going to and well, that person might know. You have seen a lot of horror movies following this team. That is true. Let's see. Mark says, how many edge rushers do we even have?

The answer is not very many because the depth chart would go, Jonathan Grenard, then Dallas Turner. Well, obviously, Andrew Van Ginkle, then Dallas Turner. Then after that, it's Bo Richter is on the active roster, Chaz Chambliss on the active roster, and they would bring up Gabriel Murphy, and I don't think there's anybody else. So that would be undrafted free agent, undrafted free agent, and undrafted free agent. Not that those guys can't play potentially, but it's not like the first round draft pick

that you were putting a lot of emphasis on for this year. And it's a bad break that he would have an illness in the middle of the week and he may still be fine and he may still play. But even the idea of him not being at 100% and then having to play a tall, ton of snaps. They may just have to use Bo Richter, who was on the field last week. And I think that Richter took some steps forward. This offseason got a ton of reps. And just because he's undrafted doesn't mean he's not a great athlete. He is. He was actually picked up by the Vikings in part because of his freaky athletic traits. But, you know, we are talking about a guy who

hasn't played much. And that's really the theme of so many players that are being tossed into the mix here, where you have Joe Huber, who's never played before. And last week, they got a good performance out of Zay Scott, but, you know, Zay Scott's got to go out there and play. And he's never played before. So there's a lot of that bouncing around this team right now of, hey, kid, you better go in there and figure it out. And there might be some of that at outside linebacker, if Dallas Turner is anything less than 100%. Gazzinke had said, hopefully he doesn't catch what Harrison has because that's apparently a six-week bug. We don't have to get into that.

But with Harrison Smith, though, it's been a problem. It is a problem that Harrison Smith has not been able to be on the field and be 100%. And I don't, when I look at the defense, they've just been in really tough. So there's a part of me that's sympathetic to what the defense is done outside of the Cincinnati game last week against Pittsburgh where they're putting all the six line men. and they're running and you don't have your run stoppers and it's just tough, right? And you're on the field a lot because the offense is turning the ball over and et cetera, et cetera.

They've had to be on the field for a lot of plays. At the same time, I think that they've really, really missed Harrison Smith being out there for every single play. And is he going to be back to 100% after the by week with two games under his belt of playing maybe 20 snaps or is that how it's going to be for a while? that we don't know. But when Harrison is out there, it's a different world. It's a different world because of the things you can do pre-snap.

And it's also a different world because he's still a very good tackler. And there's enough still in there for him to be a playmaker. And you're also getting, it's not just one player going out. It's kind of like with a basketball team where if you have your secondary scorer and he's pretty good in that role because he gets good matchups. And then LeBron goes out and you're like, hey, guy who Zadry, Elgousis, like, can you just, you know, like fill in what LeBron did? Can you just do that? That's pretty hard to do. Kind of like, I mean, really the more prudent example would be the

links when they lose Nefisa Collier. And Caleb McBride did an amazing job in that playoff game, but you're losing an MVP candidate. You can't just kind of slide somebody up. And somebody else then ends up out of position and they're not doing the things that they would normally do in their role. And that's if you're missing Harrison Smith, then you're asking Josh Mattelis to play a traditional safety spot, which is not what he does. Josh Mattelis is worth, what was it, $14, $15 million. He's worth that as a box safety. Like, that's how he made his money was being a great box safety who can drop back in coverage

and who can tackle and who can play in the slot and all those things. But he didn't make it like Cambinem as a deep safety. And it's just a harder, it's a harder situation for him, I think, with his skill set where he's just a perfect fit to do what he's been doing for the last couple of years and not quite as much in a different role. But that's what happens when you're missing guys. So there is this kind of tumbling down effect of what you're missing this guy, but then that guy has to do too much and you can't be the same version that you expected

to be. Christopher says thoughts on benching Ivan Pace and keeping Wilson when Cashman comes back, fully support it, fully support it. I think Ivan Pace is good in the right situation, and we have seen at times the right situation previously. When the Vikings had a lot more beef up front and their guys were holding blocks, and you could see them do this last year, last two years, really,

but last year was really good, where Bullard and Harrison Phillips, they're sticking guys, they're moving guys. I mean, they were really good at taking somebody and getting to their outside. shoulder and creating kind of winning that leverage battle and creating a gap for the linebacker to shoot

in and make a play. And that's what Ivan Pace has to do in order to thrive. If you're getting guards out to him at his size quickly and they're not being held up along the way by Hargrave, by Allen or Redmond or Levi

Drake, I mean, if they're getting there quickly, he's just going to get eliminated and hasn't really had the same type of impact over the first that he did over the first year of his career and even at times last year. I also think that teams get to know who you are and they target him in some ways in coverage. Wilson is a more complete player than I've had paced. That doesn't mean to me bench entirely. You should still use him. He's a really good blitzer. But I'd like to see Wilson get a lot more playing time. Totally. Christopher adds, do you think

we trade for a center if Kelly retires? They should. Yeah, they probably should unless they feel okay with the way Brando plays. I mean, they're going to get a look at it. Brandel has been a starting lineman in the league before all of last year. He was not an above average starter, but he's been a starter. And if he plays well as the center, then they might feel okay about the backup situation there. I think it's one of the hardest positions in football because you talk about trading for a center. But I don't know who's trading you a center. Like what team has three centers hanging around is like, you know, it's just, you know, let's just deal them.

Or maybe you get lucky and there's a team out there. Let's check Tennessee. Who's playing center for Tennessee? I'm going to tell you the deep, dark truth. I have not watched Tennessee this year for really super obvious reasons. So I don't know who their center is. See, because that would make sense, I guess. I think it's a really hard position to get traded because you just have,

well, that would be Lloyd Cushenberry. maybe, maybe Lloyd Cushabary doesn't grade out very well, but I don't know, he at least is a center. There might be somebody who is on a team that is just a travesty that they could trade for, a team that's falling apart that's going to trade everything that isn't nailed down. I guess that's possible. I just think with all the checks and all the calls that have to be made, it's not an easy thing. It's not an easy thing to just step in and take that center position when you haven't been in the office. Cincinnati, Ted Carris, we kind of saw that.

That was very ugly, but I guess they might be looking. He's a veteran. They might look to trade him. I don't want to count it out, but I also don't know that it's something that would happen. Cade Myers plays for Carolina. I don't really know a lot about him. Looks like he's on the younger side, so I don't think they would trade him. Yeah, there's not a lot of options when it comes to centers.

It's not like wide receivers where a team can have two or three good ones. teams have one, and most teams don't even have a good one. So if they do, they're probably going to keep them. DC says game over, pack it up, bring on 2026. Well, the crazy part about this season is if you get to three and two, the number of players who could come back within the first week is wild. I mean, who could? I'm not guaranteeing they will, but who have the potential to return.

Donovan Jackson, Aaron Jones, Blake Cashman, possibly Brian. O'Neill, maybe by the Thursday night game. I don't know the exact prognosis for him. Andrew Van Ginkle, I guess we'll continue to wait and see. Neck injuries really concern me. But nonetheless, we're talking about five, six guys who are pro bowl caliber talents or first round picks who make a huge impact. You get them back and then maybe start J.J. McCarthy.

We don't know that yet, but you start J.J. McCarthy and it clicks for him with Addison and Jefferson out there and then off you go and maybe you've got a season and you're fighting for a playoff spot with the rest of the NFC teams that are just kind of, we're going to go over those buckets and tears later, but we're just kind of in a tier of being okay and maybe potential playoff teams and then your season's back on. So it doesn't have to be over, but you lose this game, it's going to feel that way. Mark says trust Gabe, to be honest. I, you know, I mean, as far as Murphy goes, he's been good in camp and preseason, hasn't gotten in

a lot. So I don't know. Brett says some of these new injuries because of field conditions in Ireland. I don't, I don't think so, but I don't know. I mean, it seemed like there was a lot of struggle moving around in Ireland. Definitely not Dallas Turner's illness, but

maybe some of it. I mean, Ryan Kelly, that was a tough one. He just hit his head. I don't know. I don't think so. They weren't great, but I didn't anybody talking too much about that as if, wow, it was so horrible that they couldn't possibly play. As far as Jordan Mason and the Fandul question of the day, D.C.'s got 100 yards for Mason. The idea was if I told you, hey, here's what Jordan Mason did today before I told

you the score, how many yards would you need to hear to be confident that they won? 70. as far as I also asked like about confidence in them winning this game and a lot of you 50 50 on that hard to say 78 yards for Jordan Mason 50 50 yeah I mean I understand a lot of you being 50 50 on this game because with Dylan Gabriel starting he could easily throw three picks and then it's just over and it's the same as Cincinnati and then you go wow how about that what a victory but if Gabriel can move the offense at all and Judkins can move the offense at all then it's going to feel very, very different. Horror movies for life's got 80 yards for Jordan Mason being what you would need to be confident that the Vikings win.

Eric says if they drop this game and the prospects of the season look bleak, how do you think the organization moves forward? I mean, for the rest of the season, you're just playing it, you're playing it out, but you're definitely playing J.J. McCarthy. There's no question then. There's no debate. I think there shouldn't be anyway, even if it's a great day for Carson Wentz against Cleveland. maybe KOC will feel differently. But if he loses, then what your, your whole goal after that is because we've seen this whole, hey, we lost three games this one season and made the playoffs. Okay, you know, right.

But it would be a very, very steep hill to climb. But the idea for me about what the season is about is assessing everything you have, which older players still have it, what J.J. McCarthy is. is what you're going to do with your salary cap, what you're going to do in the off season, you're starting to formulate those plans the rest of the way. That's what you're doing the rest of the year because at two and three,

it's going to be really hard to make the playoffs. So you start to switch into that mode of, are you a seller at the trade deadline? I think we know the willfs aren't really sellers. They don't really like to go there, but you might consider it. Jared says zero expectations now stress-free. as I expect a massive amount of sacks until K-O-Z changes.

Jared, you say stress-free on a Thursday, but on a Sunday, I don't know. I don't know if that's how you're really going to feel. I think that the first time there's that sack, you'll probably be yelling at the television. Oak Dog says we can only hope some key players on Cleveland have jet leg. Yeah, that's true. Miles Garrett is a little banged up with an ankle, but I don't know. And that doesn't really mean anything for somebody who is like that. Jared says first team to 10 points wins.

It might be, it might be that and says, I expected to look like the Rams playoff game offensively. Well, that's, you know, it is a good point, though, that it should be a little bit of a test for Kevin O'Connell of how can you stick with the run game, the underneath passing game.

Can you stay with those things? Can you be patient? We've never seen him do it before. We've also never seen something this dire before, right? I mean, we've never seen the injuries be like this ever before. The offensive lines overall, I know that everyone who doesn't have the best offensive line in the league is mad at their offensive line. But since KOC's gotten here, I think for the most part, and this goes by PFF grades

or whatever you want to look at, I did a piece on the sacks yesterday, a purple insider dot football. They've mostly been okay and not wonderful, but at least okay. as offensive lines. And this year, though, now you're not looking at okay when you're talking about third stringers, third centers, third guards. So it is a little bit of a test.

Like last year with Sam Darnold, I understand, hey, KOC can adjust and things like that. Okay, I get it. But you had to also play to Sam Darnold's strength, which was throwing down field. They created the most explosive plays in the NFL. What would you do? Would you check down?

Would you say throw every ball underneath? Like probably not, right? And then ultimately their identity was not a good fit for the opponent that they played in the Rams. But the way they played that season led to 14 wins. So you could understand why they wouldn't change it. But now the offense is 28th in passing EPA. Like, you've got to figure it out. You've got to find a way to change it.

So anyway, Johns has felt interpriced on some jet sweeps might help the offense. I think that those guys just get the ball in their hands once or twice. in this game get them moving like they're both talented they're both explosive uh i don't disagree on that uh brey l has 50 50 for this team hunters got 65 35 in terms of confidence david says mason needs at least 80 yards um so a lot of a lot of 50 50 uh seline is already thinking about next year i'm definitely not thinking about next year yet i've just seen too many times teams around the nfl get off to a rough start through the first four games If it was 0 and 4, I would agree with you.

Two and two, I don't, I don't agree. And there's, there's way too much talent coming back. It's not season-ending injuries to O'Neill, to Jackson. We don't know about Kelly, but to Aaron Jones, at least we haven't heard that, to Blake Cashman, haven't heard that. So the fact that you got a lot of the pieces coming back eventually, and then you could get maybe close to the full offense that you expected to have with the quarterback that you expected to have,

I don't want to just say, hey, like, we're done. You know, it's over. We're throwing, you know, 90, 10, Lucas, Willie says our coach doesn't change up. We need an elite play caller. So here's the thing, Willie, is I think with all coaches, their fan bases, think that their play calling isn't good enough. And here's how I know. I follow a lot of people.

I follow a lot of reporters. I follow a lot of analysts for different teams and everything. else. I read a lot about what's being said about the other teams in the NFL. That's the job to keep up with this. And what I always see is the number of people who are responding to questions in their mailbags about why their coach is not a good enough play caller. Kyle Shanahan has his things that drive them nuts. Sean McVeigh has things that drive them nuts. Anyway, so I got to run because I got to go on Henry Lake's show, but I've got Emily Liker here with the Star Tribune, so here's myself and Emily.

All right, we welcome into the show from the Star Tribune, filling in in the hardcore preview for Andrew Kramer, who is overseas, one of us who is stateside, Emily Liker, Emily, welcome back to the show. I am looking forward to diving in. It's a high bar that Andrew sets, especially if you ask him about the vibes, but there's a lot, There's a lot that we like to dive into hardcore here, Vikings and Browns. So are you excited for Vikings and Browns or how are we feeling? Oh, I'm excited to watch games in person again.

So I'm excited to get through this one and then have them back stateside because it's a little bit different experience from the couch. Isn't it so hard to cover a game when you have to watch it on TV? I mean, this is, I would have liked to have gone just with, you know, business-wise, didn't work out, but I mean, when I'm watching a game on TV, I feel like I have no idea what happened because I'm so used to seeing the whole game play out in front of me. It's a very weird experience. Well, there's more distractions around because you're at home and it's like, oh, I should get up and do the dishes while we're in commercial break or whatever. And like,

the other thing, too, is my only real duty when I'm at home and they're on the road is to, like, do the live blog. But the TV broadcast is like two minutes behind. what's actually happening. So, like, it'll come up in the stat system and be like, oh, yep, they just scored a touchdown. And I'm like, well, I'm still three plays behind watching. And I'm not going to be able to write what happened until I actually see it. Well, at least the fans who are watching for your live blog, I do live chat too. At least they're like, you're not spoiling because I always have to worry about that for the

live chat with fans because I'll be like, oh, my gosh. And they'll be like, oh, thanks. Then you just ruined what play just happened. So we'll be back, though, for the Eagles game at U.S. Bank Stadium. But for now, it is the battle of the offensive lines who are playing guys most people have never heard of and defenses that are good and quarterbacks that weren't the starters on day one. I mean, what a messy matchup this is likely to be. I think the place to begin here is with the Vikings offense versus the Browns defense. It is a really, really talented unit.

They've given up high point totals, mostly because. their offense is horrendous, but what do you think that Kevin O'Connell needs to do to try to survive with Carson Wentz this week against the Browns knowing that they're not going to have anything close to a starting offensive line? I mean, I think the biggest thing for both of these teams, right? And this sounds so basic, but it's minimizing mistakes because both of these defenses are so good that anything you do to trip yourself up, they are going to capitalize on. Like, they do you do not need to be helping these defenses do their job you need to be keeping everything as crisp and clean as possible i think more of the quick passing that we've seen from once he's now

got like the third fastest time to throw in the league right now i think uh 2.62 seconds between release there and then one thing i was interested in looking at is that the browns haven't done great about against the intermediate passing game they're fine in the short they do pretty well with like the long in the deep passing. But the intermediate game is where they've like struggled as a defense a little bit. And so I'm curious if we see more Adam Thielen, who we really haven't seen do too much through the first four weeks. He's been targeted and had some drops. He's had one or two catches here and there. If we see more of him, if we see more of Josh Oliver or T.J. Hawkinson who are both used kind of over the middle and in the middle there. Now, the thing with T.J.

Hockinson and Josh Oliver is. They also need them on the line to assist in the blocking with how the O line looks. But so, yeah, I think the quick passing game and then that intermediate area of the field, I think will be kind of the bread and butter for the Vikings offense this game. It's so interesting to me when I look at the film and the data about their success or kind of lack thereof in the middle of the field where last week we saw Justin Jefferson hit some in breaking routes and I think he had 68 yards or something between 10 and 19 and other than that we haven't seen a lot of that. T.J. Hawkinson's lack of a consistent presence in this offense, I'm trying to pin down a lot of things where like, why are they taking so many sacks? Why are they not getting

the ball consistently to T.J. Hawkinson? And I think a lot of it just comes back to one of your quarterbacks had never played football before and the other quarterback showed up here a month ago. and I think that this all ties into the sacks. And you talk about the catastrophic mistakes. There's been a ton. They are number one in the NFL in sacks taken. And while I think that a lot of that is on Kevin O'Connell and it is on play calling and scheme, I also look back and I did this for an article about their sacks previously.

Since 2022, their 15th in sack rate is just the middle of the league, kind of an average team in terms of sacks. It should not be like this with. constantly taking these huge negative plays. And the Brown's defense has only had 11 sacks total this season. So like, hypothetically, they shouldn't be wrecking the backfield. And so I think if we see that happen early, that's the red flag that this game is not going to go in the Vikings favor.

Now, obviously, like, Miles Garrett is the big threat there. And he has a 19.8% pressure rate, which is crazy. I don't remember how high that is in the league. But I'm curious where they match him up and how the Vikings try to build this O line with their limited resources to prevent things. I mean, you have to think, like, I mean, I don't even know. Like, is he going to be on the edge? And, like, Derisaw's going to try and take him, like, Will Fries. God don't want him in the middle at this point or on, like, between the center and the left guard,

whoever they have in there with Michael Juergens not practicing yesterday. I'm scared for them about Miles Garrett and this O line. And every once in a while with him, he'll line up over the middle and just freak out everybody. He doesn't do it a ton statistically to line up over the right side. But would you be surprised if they see, you know, just at school over there and say, well, why don't we do that a little bit more often with Miles Garrett? I'm sure he's good enough to turn his body the other way as he's chasing down an opposing quarterback. But I think Emily, what this comes down to is really just, is it possible to consistently get the ball out of Carson Wentz's hands fast?

It happened on the opening script, both of the last two weeks. And then as the game started to play out, then it got more and more, I think, confusing of why they couldn't get him to throw the ball quickly. And I don't know how you feel about it. I think that it's a little bit of everything. It's a dash of backup offensive lineman. It's a dash of the quarterback in his tendency. dash of Kevin O'Connell, but I don't know, if you want to try a pie chart, a pie chart of blame here of who is responsible for the amount of pressure that the Vikings have faced. I guess

our pie chart would be O'Connell's play calling, Carson Wentz, just being Carson Wentz, the offensive lines blocking, and maybe we can give defenses some credit that they face some pretty decent defenses. Yeah, okay, okay. I do think, I do think the, the offensive line is the lion's share of it because that game against the bangles is the closest they've come to having the full line. And obviously, we know how that game went. It went very well for them. Carson once executed things perfectly. They had some help from the defense as well with Isaiah Rogers' touchdowns. But I, so I do think the lion's share is the offensive line. Let me make sure my math is right. I'm going to start, I'm going to start with 40% offensive line.

okay and then i think wenz would probably be the next chair though it's it's hard because like i don't think it's like wence's play style but just like the fact that he is new and is still kind of like learning how this offense works so maybe like 20% once that gets me to 60% here and then we said kevin o'connell's play calling and defenses yep then i'd probably go I'd probably go, 30% defenses, 10% play calling. Oh, okay. Interesting. I think that's, that's just off, off the top of my head.

Off the dome. Yeah, off the dome. So, yeah, that's, I mean, playing this many backup offensive linemen, you're kind of just, you're going to get that. It's just hard. Right. It's hard. The Pittsburgh Steelers have a ton of great players.

They deserve credit for that on the defensive line. Where it's hard to figure out in terms of whence and just even going back to McCarthy, too, is the pressure to sack rate is crazy. So if they get pressured, both quarterbacks were getting sacked at basically the highest rate in the league, which would seem to me that they just don't know where to go when the pressure comes. And that might be a new quarterback thing where Kirk Cousins knew the whole offense. Darnold knew the whole offense. He played the whole training camp, the whole offseason, everything else. and he played a hundred games before or whatever. So when pressure came, he kind of knew, all right, this is where my checkdown is.

This is where I could throw the ball away from. I don't know that they know that as well. Like where, I mean, the sack on the first drive is probably a great example of that where Carson Wentz looks to his left and there's some guys double teamed over there. And he just doesn't get back to where he's supposed to be and takes a sack. It's like, does he know that Jefferson is there? Does he not? and that's why picking apart these things are so difficult.

I don't think you made a bad pie chart at all. I think where I might put a little more as O'Connell because you have to be aware that your quarterbacks have this flaw and inexperience in this offense. Yeah, no, and I think that's fair. And it's like hard to because it's like he's been calling with two separate quarterbacks now. And it's like, well, how do you judge the calling with JJ versus the calling with

Carson, who, yes, has only been here a few weeks, but as everyone's been repeating, has played so much football that it shouldn't entirely matter, like it matters a little bit, but he also has the experience to just go in. So, yeah, I think that's also an acceptable take is given O'Connell a little bit more of the blame and then taking it away from the defense's credit. So I've been fascinated by the over under for this week because it is so unbelievably low on Fandul, 35 and a half, which is, I laugh every time. I just can't, like, you just don't see over unders that are under 40 points very often. The question I asked the other night was how many points the Vikings need to score to win this

game? How good does the offense have to be against Cleveland to win this game, you think? I will say that I don't think all of the points are going to come from the Vikings' offense. I do, I feel very strongly that there is going to be defensive points. in this game from the Vikings defense. I mean, we've all seen Isaiah Rogers through four weeks now. And I think there's other guys in that secondary that just haven't quite been been activated yet and will have the chance to really show off against Dylan Gabriel,

who I know we're going to talk about. I don't know. I, how many points do they need to win the game? Yeah. Like 24? Like, I do think it's a relatively low number. number. I went even lower. I went 17 the other night. I mean, they, because I just feel like a 17 to 10 game is kind of where this is going. Let's go over to Dylan Gabriel, though, totally unknown here. Very, very good college quarterback. He is dealing with a really

poor, really, really poor offensive line. Set of weapons should be better based on their names. And I can't figure out Emily whether Joe Flacco is just so cooked that he couldn't do anything. with an offensive line that's not good and maybe a quarterback with a fresh arm can come in and do something or if there's just no chance for a young quarterback against Brian Flores' defense? I do the first thought I had when I saw that they made this change besides, oh, interesting that they made this change before this game, knowing that they were going against Brian Flores' defense, is I do wonder, I don't think Dylan's as mobile as

Caleb Williams is, but I do wonder if they've seen what, some of these more mobile quarterbacks have been able to do against Flores' defense and said, look, Flacco is not that. He's too old to be that at this point. Let's at least, let's try and put our guy in there and give him the chance to scramble. I think his draft profile also noted, because I went back and looked through that because we don't have a lot of tape to look at. Noted that he is pretty poised in the pocket even. Like he doesn't get, he can scramble, but he's not jittery, which is I think what we were seeing a lot from JJ in some of those instances in games one and two was like getting a little too jittery and fleeing early.

So I don't think like Dylan's going to be hyper mobile, but it seems like just from what I've read and what I've been seeing that he knows when to go mobile. And I'm wondering if that was what ultimately Stefansky and the rest of the coaches there were like, let's give this guy a shot against this defense because we know there's maybe room to get some yardage on them there. I think that he does have a bit of athleticism to him and a strong enough arm just watching a little bit from preseason and, you know, there's not, like you said, not much else. But velocity on the football is pretty good from a guy who doesn't have a ton of size.

And you do see that poise in the pocket. There's no way to emulate what Flores is going to do to him, though. I think that if Dylan Gabriel, I mean, think about how many yards Aaron Rogers need to win the game last week. He needed, what, 200 yards to win passing. He needed one big play and then one good drive. I think this comes down to Quinn John Judkins and whether they could stop the run. And I would be very interested in your opinion about what you think the Vikings will change this week after what they saw because, I mean, they can't have watched Kenneth Gainwell's theme roll them and been like, you know, what we should do is the same thing. I've got to think that there

should be some sort of tweak coming to how they handle the defensive line, the front seven, because Judkins does have that capability of running over you. Yeah, I did have the thought of, I wonder if this is a more heavy Jonathan Allen, Javon Hargrave. I mean, those guys are obviously playing the most snaps in this season regardless, but they have been really purposeful in that rotation of the D line. And I do wonder if they'll just sink into those guys a little bit more. as anchors in this game and after what last game looked like. I'd have to think you're putting more in the box a little bit more,

maybe going with more four down linemen instead of like some of the three steps, especially when you also factor in that Andrew Van Ginkle's going to be out again. And that whole scenario there, which doesn't seem like it's going to clear up anytime soon. Yeah, but the other, the thing about the rushing attack, though, too, is like so much of it is that they get to the second level and the tackling hasn't been there and I they they we see them practice the tackling they say that they

practice the tackling and I just like don't know what the solution is when you're not tackling well even though you seem to be practicing it I think that they're a little overmatch size wise by teams offensive lines and that's hurt them not having cashman I think that at this point they would have cashman and Wilson in the way that things have gone for Ivan Pace Jr. this year so far. And I wouldn't be surprised if we see that when Blake Cashman returns, that there's a lot more Eric Wilson on the field with him. They need him. Van Ginkle's a great player against the run. He's a guy who could play inside or outside linebacker. Missing him is huge. But I like your idea about, I mean, maybe you could be talking about getting more meat on the front,

like putting in even more often Jalen Redman with Javon Hargrave or Jonathan Allen. And I think Hargrave has been the guy that they've, that opposing teams have really attacked. So you might end up with a little more Levi Drake Rodriguez, but he got pushed around a bit last week as well. I was even wondering if they would elevate Takitai Amani and throw him in there. Just knowing that Cleveland, I mean, this is Kevin Stefanski. This is what he does is, he is a run first type of play caller. And I think that not having that one guy who can fill up some gaps has been problematic for them. Yeah, I could see that. That's a good thought. just get another body in there. Has to Taki hasn't been, has Taki been elevated at all this season?

I don't think so. He played early last year and then got hurt and then we did not see him. So let's talk about just the weapons that Dylan Gabriel is going to have. Offensive line, they have really, really struggled. They had to trade for Cam Robinson, which as we know is a panic button that you push from the Vikings last year. They have names of guys and Joku. is a big name. Jerry Judy's a big name. But Isaiah Bond has had a play or two here or there. He's a guy drafted for his crazy speed. But they just haven't been able to put that together. And I don't know if that's flacco or the lack of blocking or what that could be. And they have one of my most interesting players that I wanted to see how he turned out in the NFL, which was Harold Fanon, a guy

from Bowling Green who caught ungodly amounts of passes in college. Usually when somebody does that was like the Cooper Cup thing like don't overthink it if this guy caught 200 passes in a year or something just draft him in the third round um but are they going to be able to get going with their weapons against this secondary which I think has not aside from the Cincinnati game not really lived up to the expectations that we had no I would agree I mean I've been thinking like there was a lot of hype including I mean I wrote about him Theo Jackson in the preseason and we we just we haven't seen him do anything any of the flashy things that we were seeing him do in training camp like picking off jj multiple times in a practice or all that ball hawkness that

got touted um yeah they're looking at their receiving course stats right now is interesting it's ugly hideous yeah it's not great and it's like their top three their top three targets like None of them have had a passing or a receiving touchdown yet. Yeah, I don't, that's a tough one just looking at this. It's so weird because like you said, it is these names. Like David Njoku, you would think would be doing more. If they weren't, here's what I'll say, is if they weren't able to do stuff with Flacco, I don't know that game one with Dylan Gabriel, they're going to be able to do much either.

Maybe a couple games from now, once Dylan's settled in with them and they've all settled in with each other, we'll start to see it and we'll turn around and be like, oh, it's, it's good. The Vikings got the Browns when they did or whatever, but I just don't think that you're going to be able to see like a sizable difference just because they made the quarterback switch. I think it's a good litmus test for the defense because outside of the Cincinnati game, where it was just the most random and same thing that will probably never be repeated what they did in that first half, it has been average as a defense, I think. And some of that's the strain of the defense having to be on the field the entire time.

But if they do get these guys going, if Jerry Judy is making plays and we do see in Joku or Fanon have a big day, and they are throwing for 250 yards on this defense or more, the over under on Fandul for Dylan Gabriel is 181.5. So the expectations are not super high. But if they move the ball against this defense, I do think we're starting to have major questions about whether this can live up to what we thought it would be. What do you think about Dallas Turner's season so far? Because the opportunity has arrived. Last year, they talked endlessly about, hey, Dallas is behind Van Ginkle.

And that's why he's not getting on the field as much. And then they put him on the field and he was okay at times and disappeared at times. Just so far this season, how have you felt like? he has stepped a little more into the limelight. I mean, he hasn't really had like a super big play yet. I feel like there were a couple in both last game and the Bengals game where he came close, but then was like a step away from getting the quarterback or dove and couldn't quite bring him down or whatever. So like he still feels like he's like a hair away from like really landing things.

And it is tough because now that he's taken on so much more with Andrew Van Ginkle out, like, you'd think that, okay, more opportunity, there's going to be more landing. And it just, there hasn't been more landing yet. Now, I will say, all of them have kind of been struggling with bringing down guys. Like, Caleb, looking at, thinking back to week one when Caleb Williams was just evading everyone in the backfield and then gaining 12 plus yards down. field like it's not just a Dallas problem but I think you would want to see a little bit more from him just given the fact that he's having more opportunities and he's spending more time on the field than he did um last year because yeah he's at 12 tackles right now one sack so he does have a 10

yard sack I hey I don't remember what game that was in that was uh Michael Pennix it was kind of was it like unblocked or like a cleanup sack yes it was a cleanup sack because then I think we asked about it post game and he was like oh well i think hargrave put pressure on him or something like that one of the the older um or veteran defensive lineman had kind of initiated things and he closed it out so he's he's close and i wonder if it will just be a matter of like having one really good game that gets him in a kick of of having a lot of them like if it just needs to happen once for it to happen again um but you you'd want that to come sooner rather than later and like this week feels like it could be a perfect opportunity for that.

Yes, because he's got a favorable matchup and a young quarterback who is also left handed and he's going to rush off the right side a lot. Turner has 11 pressures to just one sack. So I think that's a good point. It's got about the same number of pressures as T.J. Watt, Rishon, Gary and Montes Sweat. So, like, he's getting some pressure on the quarterback just has not been able to finish those so far.

What is your X factor to the game? Do you have something that's kind of, uh rand i have i have one that i go yeah i want to hear you're and you can think about an x factor well this the kicking discussion has gotten really uh out of control with kickers making 54 50 i saw a chart um from a guy on twitter about how the percentage of makes for a 56 yarder is now what it used to be for a 46 yarder which is totally crazy uh they are in london it does get weird in london but in a game where you might be talking about two teams just beating each other with pool toys for four quarters, you might see

Will Reichard have to be the star of this game and Cleveland's kicking not as good as what we've seen from Will so far. He has been fantastic thus far this season. I think that the kicking game overall might end up being. And look, I mean, the punters coffin corner, like in a game like this where we're expecting 20 points to maybe win it, you could end up with a lot of kicking and everybody over in Europe being very, very excited to see people kick the old pigskin around. Yeah, special teams is a good one. Andre Schmidt, the Browns kicker, was Syracuse's kicker, my first season that I was there. That was his last year.

So a little tie-in personally for me or a callback. But, yeah, kicker, I mean, I've been astounded that we've gone four weeks with, like, basically the same script pre-half time where, like, Will Reikert cups out. it gets to like have his big moment and then it doesn't really like it hasn't helped much in the end in two of these games but um yeah special teams is a good one my gut i think is taking me back to that intermediate passing game and trying to get more involved more guys involved in that midsection of the field and someone that we've seen a little bit of but not quite as much as we've did in in training camp i feel like is josh oliver yeah

And I'm kind of wondering if they can scheme up Josh Oliver to do a little bit more in this game. Maybe leave TJ doing some of the blocking and get Josh out in the field a little bit more and capitalizing on that. Because we did see him really kind of activate in that receiving game and training camp and have some good plays there. And that just hasn't quite happened yet for him. So, yeah. Now, obviously, that hinges upon everything we talked about with once in the O line and the ball actually. being able to get out of the backfield. But I think if they can get things going, I'll be intrigued to see how much he's used. I love that pick as an X factor. We just have not seen a lot.

And I think that ankle injury has been a big deal for Josh Oliver. But in a game where you might need to ground and pound, you might need to throw underneath if they're capable of doing that. Josh Oliver's a really good pick for this. Okay. So last question is always, do you think they'll win? I'm guessing that you think they'll win. I'm guessing that you think they'll win, right? Yes, yeah, I do think they'll win. Okay. I think it will be close, but I think they'll win.

Okay, then let me ask a bigger picture question to wrap up with you, which is the three, if they get to three and two and they're coming back, how do you think Kevin O'Connell will slash should handle the quarterback situation if they get two out of three wins with Carson Wentz? J.J. will assume that his ankle is not only healthy, but maybe they've had the Pope blessed or whatever other number of things that they need for him to actually get out there and play and practice. My God, I mean, okay, I don't know. It's just, I like that they're safe with players, but I mean, high ankle sprain for a quarterback usually doesn't result in not practicing for this long. So anyway, go ahead. What do you think that they'll do?

Based on the fact that it's October 2nd and he still hasn't practiced and they have a bye week next week, I would be shocked if they played him in the Eagles game at this point, I think. Really? Wow. Not necessarily because of like, oh, like, is he healthy enough or not? Like, I think he'll be back practicing that week. But the thing I've kept bringing up and we've talked about on our Access Vikings podcast is the balancing of the practice snaps and the fact that like a second, a backup quarterback does not get that many or whoever's in the secondary position week to week

does not get a lot of practice snaps. And for JJ to be coming back after two to three weeks off and he's still not practicing at this point, like I just don't think he's going to have been in practice enough to go in and play that game. And like there's just so many factors to consider with that too because it's like even if you maybe thought he was ready to go against the Eagles,

you don't want to take all of Carson Wentz's snaps away in case you need him to go against the Eagles. And so it's like such a balancing act of when you want JJ to come back and like when he actually can based on how much practice reps you've given him. And I just don't know that they can achieve enough practice reps between presumably next week, because I don't know that he'll do anything meaningful this week. It sounded like maybe he's going to get back into individual work but like rep's where he's actually practicing right with the team i don't think he's going to be able to do enough between now and the the eagles game for them to say yeah we're going to put him out there they would have to decide i think the minute that the game is over in

cleveland we're starting j j mccarthy next week get him going in that process and him be healthy enough and as you said you know you're going to get the bye week but maybe if you were starting him like day one of practice day one of the preparation he is the quarterback there's no question, we're not judging on, maybe you could get him ready for Philadelphia that way, but he also has to be healthy enough to go through all that practice stuff. I think very much up in the air, what Kevin O'Connell decides to do. So Emily Liker, the Access Vikings podcast, as you mentioned, also doing great written work in the old newspaper.

So it's great to have you back on the show. We will absolutely do it again. And then we don't have to wait until Andrew Kramer is overseas to get together again. Glad to have you back on the show, Emily. Thanks for having me.