Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - More perspectives on the Vikings' trade for Yannick Ngakoue

Episode Date: August 31, 2020

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Not to be mistaken with a Twin Cities John Shipley, who is much older than you, John Shipley. Hi, John. Hey, how you doing? I know exactly who you're talking about just because there's a reason my Twitter name has so many underscores in it. That is actually a joke that is sort of running on the podcast is people with underscores because every time you have someone from PFF, it's always, you know, PFF underscore whatever, that sort of thing. So you are on Twitter starts with the underscore, John underscore Shipley, and that is definitely problematic, but you can amend for it with a good appearance here on the show. So let's get right into it with Yannick Ngakwe, and maybe you can give me the perspective

from Jacksonville's side and what went wrong and where all of Jacksonville's defensive players went. The Vikings, at least from their 27 defense, have some guys left, John. I think what's been lost in a lot of this is the fact that the Jaguars, they wanted Ngokwe to still be on their team. They were willing to make him the highest-paid player on the team when they placed a tag on him this season. They obviously wanted to resign him at some point this offseason. But where it really went wrong was from Ngakwe's standpoint.

You know, Ngakwe, last year in 2019, he wanted an extension then. You know, through three years, he had almost 30 sacks. He had made a Pro Bowl. He had, I think it was eight forced fumbles at the three seasons. And he had far outplayed his third-round contract. And, you know, he attempted to enter negotiations with the Jaguars then. And Tom Coughlin was, of course, still the czar of Jacksonville's football operations then. And, you know, really from every report and every, really, feeling you get from it,

Coughlin really didn't negotiate in good faith. You know, SI's Albert Breer reported after Coughlin was fired that Coughlin made one offer to Ngakwe that entire time and then said that's our last and best offer. And you really just get the sense that Ngakwe felt disrespected after that. So, I mean, if you look at it this way, Ngakwe basically lost out on $20 million or so because he didn't take Jacksonville's offer last season, but he didn't take it because it was an offer that he deemed really not good enough for his talents. And because of that, that's why he wanted out of Jacksonville to begin with, you know, even with Tom Coughlin, not there running the show anymore, you just get the sense that he really felt disrespected to the point where he just wanted the fresh start. And, you know, that's his life. You know, I mean,

you can't ever fault somebody's decision in terms of, you know, last year with the NFL PA saying basically don't sign with the Jacksonville Jaguars, the, the, the London agreement. I mean, there's a lot there that would,

I think make it different than say a Stefan Diggs trade where you go, what was Diggs's problem? He's their leading wide receiver. He's the Minneapolis miracle guy. It must've been an issue with him. But with Ngakwe, I think a lot more people look at it like, oh, he's going from an organization that has been really since 2017 in the gutter to an organization that is consistently, since Mike Zimmer got here, been at the top of the heap. Yeah, no, absolutely.

And, you know, like you had said, you look at the 2017 starting defense from the championship game and you wonder, you know, where the heck did everybody go? I mean, at this point, just three years later, they only have two players that remain that played 300 stamps or more for that defense. And that's linebacker Miles Jack, who just got moved from middle linebacker to weak side linebacker. So that tells you how that went. And then you have nose tackle Avery Jones, who wasn't even a starter on that 2017 team. And the big reason for that is, you know, of course you had a couple of retirements with Paul Bazlesny and Telvin Smith, but a lot of these guys were either traded away because of poor relationships

with the front office, such as like you said, and Gawkway or Jalen Ramsey. And when you look at those two, and then also Allen Robinson, who, you know, he wasn't traded away, but they didn't re-sign him after 2017 and instead spent money on Marquise Lee and Dante Moncrief. The real reason that happened is because the team's management had an issue with retaining their homegrown top talent. You know, you look at the guys that they paid the most money and it was

normally coming from players from other teams. Their current highest player is guard Andrew Norwell. You know, they were really making other players and Nick Foles is another example. They were trying to bring other players in to make them the cornerstone of their team instead of really investing in their future that they had picked themselves. And I feel like that really happened just because management relationship with the players deteriorated. I think Tom Coughlin is the major reason for that, but I don't think things can ever get to that point where you say only one

person is really the root cause of that. So I think at this point, really where they go from here is, you know, they have to try to change that perception, but it really felt like Ngakwe was maybe the last domino to fall from that just because, I mean, who else is there that's going to leave? You know, Miles Jack. So that's just where things kind of went from there. You know, you really felt like all those players.

I mean, you've even had Leonard Fournette post tweets and memes on social media about Coughlin being the one that he feels ruined the 2017 Jaguars. So that's not an opinion. It's just held in media, obviously. That's an opinion that's even held by some inside a locker room. It's remarkable. A guy could not have had a higher perception around the NFL after winning two Super Bowls with the Giants than Tom Coughlin. And then in that position, you can't treat that position like a head coach, and it seems like in a lot of ways he did and used power that maybe he wouldn't have had before as a head coach, and I think it's got to be a completely different mentality. It just wasn't a fit for him,

and like you said, tore the entire roster apart, and again, that's why I think people in Minnesota are looking at it like, you know, the meme from Austin Powers, just like, come here, come over here to an organization that makes sense and is stable. So now let's talk about Ngakwe as a player because, you know, we can look at the pressure numbers from PFF. We can look at the grades and so forth. But you've had a lot more time looking at him actually playing football. So just tell me about what the Vikings are getting as a football player in Yannick Ngakwe. Yeah, no, what they're getting, first of all, is a really steady pass rusher.

You know, he might go through the occasional lull, like really any pass rusher of, you know, periods where he's not getting to the quarterback as often. But he's a guy who you can really expect to come in every Sunday and at least have a good chance to make an impact. He has a great burst off the line. He has terrific flexibility. And those are his two best traits. And with each of those being his best traits, it helps him get near the football a lot.

You know, he does more than just sack the quarterback. You know, he's only had one season with double digits of sacks. But I believe that you have to look at the explosive plays that he helps create on defense to really get a good feel for his impact in Jacksonville. I don't know the exact figure, but I know over the last several years, almost all of the team's defensive plays, say for I believe a handful, were defensive touchdowns, I mean, were the result of Ngakwe. Whether it's him forcing a fumble, him returning an interception for a touchdown, him returning a fumble for a touchdown. I i mean you're talking about a guy who has 14 forced fumbles in four seasons and he had one season where he didn't have any so that's 14 forced fumbles over three seasons i mean people

harp on his sack production but last year he still forced six forced fumbles so i mean he's a guy who he's going to get to the quarterback a good bit and he's going to get the ball out and i believe that's an asset for any defense. Run defense, definitely not his strength, just because, I mean, you can look at him. You know, he's not really a guy who's kind of an anchoring defensive end who can really set the edge. But he still makes some plays against the run game.

You know, like I mentioned his quickness earlier. He's able a lot of times to really get a good jump on the offensive lineman and get in the backfield, kind of sneak back there and make a tackle for loss. So he's not going to make a ton of plays where he's, you know, throwing the lineman to the ground and setting the edge. But he'll make some run stops by beating the offensive lineman off the ball and getting back there. And it's really, in terms of the run stuffing, something that the Jaguars,

at least on paper it looks like to me, tried to mitigate certain situations where you would not want someone that's at least on paper it looks like to me, tried to mitigate certain situations where you would not want someone that's at least listed at 246 pounds. The Vikings, when they have Everson Griffin, they played him 900 to 1,000 snaps because he could do it all, and he could be in there for any type of situation. If it was third and one at the goal line, you want Everson Griffin in. It looks to me like you don't want Yannick Ngakwe. Well, the interesting thing with the Jaguars is the defensive scheme they played Ngakwe's entire time in Jacksonville.

When they're in their base defense, they have two defensive ends on the field, but only one of them is kind of a true 4-3 defensive end. You know, the other one is more of a Calais Campbell type, you know, more of a closer 300-pound guy. So they would have a lot of situations where end you know the other one is more of a Calais Campbell type you know more of a closer 300 pound guy so they would have a lot of situations where you know like you had said maybe you don't want him in well he's still on the field but he's so far both off the line and to the weak side of the offense that you're able to kind of get a little bit of a compromise with the poor run defense again he's not a guy, like you said,

if you're on the one yard line and the goal line, I don't think he's particularly, you know, a guy that you're afraid of running at. But I do will say that he has at least made it a focus in the last several years to improve on that aspect of his game. He mentioned that a lot last season. And last season was probably one of his better seasons as a run defender. But there will be highlights now and then where there's a big run to his side. What did you think of the price that the Vikings paid for him? Obviously, Jacksonville not in a situation to necessarily get a first-round pick when the player is saying, I'm out, I'm not going to play for you guys.

But overall, I thought very much in the same manner as the Stephon Diggs, very fair that they gave up a good amount and they got back a really good player, just like when they gave up Diggs, they got back a very appropriate. This is not a Bill O'Brien trade, basically. Yeah, basically. I think once it got past the July 15th deadline where Ngakwe wasn't able to sign a multi-year contract, that it was a lot like the clowning trade last year where you can't expect a ton just because, you know, they can verbally work out a contract all they want, but at the end of the year,

it's still officially a one-year rental until further notice. So I thought a second round pick was always going to be really as good as they could do once that deadline passed. And while I think that's acceptable for them, I think it's an even better deal for the Vikings. Because if you look at it, you're getting one, he's just a 25-year-old defensive end. He's entering his fifth year. He should be entering his prime. You know, he's only had one season with double digits of sacks, but he's never had a season with fewer than eight sacks. So, you know, you're getting a guy who both has high upside due to his age

and a high ceiling due to his production. So I feel like paying a second-round pick for that type of player, I mean, what player are you going to pick in the second round that realistically is going to have a better impact next year? You do have to factor in the fact that the Vikings are going to have to pay him a heavy price after this year. And I think if they don't sign him to a new contract, which I believe is absolutely expected, then that would obviously hinder how the trade looks. But as of right now, I think it looks like an okay deal for the Jaguars and an even better deal for the Vikings.

Yeah, if they don't sign him, I would be stunned and I would totally change my opinion of the trade. This was a trade that on the show we were pushing before, like, hey, this makes a lot of sense because of his age especially. How many times can you get your hands on somebody who's 25 years old who you can sign to a long-term contract and then keep him and Hunter for a very long time? That's where it makes a lot of sense. Before I let you go john um

tell me about the jags like what is happening a very good draft i thought they picked a bunch of players uh chanel chase on uh henderson like guys that have very very high ceilings but seems like it's going to be a long road to the top yeah i mean at least for this year like you, they have a lot of young players with a lot of potential, but they're set to be one of the youngest teams in the NFL. You just look at their depth chart, and it's a lot of first, second, third-year players, and the real issue with the Jaguars isn't the fact that they're devoid of talent or that they lack a ton of depth because they do have an interesting roster of talent. The issue is they don't have that top-tier blue-chip talent they used to have. The Ngokwes, the Jalen Ramseys, the Calais Campbells, all those guys are gone.

They have some really good players who are well on their way to becoming those type of players and guys like Josh Allen, DJ Chark, but they simply need to add more, and that seems to be the reason why they're stockpiling on so many picks. So, yeah, I do think this year they're going to be – I'm not sold that they'll be worse than, say, the New York Jets, who I don't know if they have a player as good as Chark or Allen on their entire team, but I think they're going to be a lot closer to picking first overall than they will be to, say, winning nine or ten games.

I mean, if they get Justin Fields or Trevor Lawrence and then all these other draft picks that look really good with high season, hit on a few of those, it might not have to be that long until they're back. It's like, I mean, I've always done this on Madden, but it works in real life. When you get a roster, you tear it down, and then you build it back up with the top draft pick. I mean, it's just kind of if you're not one of those teams that has Aaron Rodgers for 10 years that keeps you at the top, this is the only way to get back there.

Yeah, and they have no real money tied in at quarterback either. You know, I mean, they have Minshew for this year, but if you look at it, their commitment to Minshew is really kind of just for 2020. I mean, to my knowledge, they either have the cheapest or the second cheapest paid quarterback room in the entire NFL. So you have all those picks. They have weapons on offense and Shark and Mouse and all. And if they play their cards right, they can rebuild this team in quick fashion

due to both picks, and they have an abundance of cap space because, frankly, they have nobody to really pay over the last several years. So they have a chance to rebuild this thing, but they've had a chance before, and it worked for a year. So they've got to try to do something more sustainable this time around. Well, from a reporter's perspective, being one of those bottom teams that's building up, I think that it offers almost as many interesting elements as a team that's winning and competing because you're always reassessing where do guys stand who can you go forward with so I wish you the best of luck with that and the

Jaguars are never for a team that's in a market that isn't as big as uh you know your Dallas Cowboys or New York Giants they always always offer headlines. You are never too far off the headlines with the Jaguars. No, it has not been a quiet first year. I won't say that much. I was just thinking earlier today, I was like, it's weird. I got here and it was about two days ago was marked my, like, exactly first year. And since I got here, Dave traded away Jalen Ramsey, Calais Campbell, Yannick Ngakwe. I'm starting to wonder about the problem.

And you had that legendary Jalen Ramsey press Calais Campbell, Yannick Ngakwe, I'm starting to wonder about the problem. And you had that legendary Jalen Ramsey press conference last year too. So there has been. Won't be forgetting that one. That's right. A lot for you to cover. Follow him on Twitter. It's okay if you follow two John Shipleys. At underscore John at underscore Shipley.

If you can figure that out, you can follow him. Jaguar Report with Sports Illustrated. Great stuff, man. I really appreciate you coming on, and thanks for the insight. Hey, thanks for having me on, man. I really appreciate it, and I hope you have a great rest of your weekend. I want to remind you to go to sodastick.com to get your original Minnesota Sports-inspired goods. They just launched their official collaboration with Bud Grant. Yes, Bud Grant. You can now get your official Bud Grant shirt and Man Cave art print. If you haven't seen it yet, you have to check it out, and we're going to hook you up with free shipping for your order.

Use code PURPLEINSIDER for free shipping. That is SOTASTICK, S-O-T-A-S-T-I-C-K.com, original Minnesota sports-inspired goods. Code PURPLEINSIDER for free shipping. All right, now we welcome into the show from USA Today. He has been on before, one of my favorite people to read, and now a podcast also to listen to, Stephen Ruiz. Stephen, how are you enjoying your jump into the podcast world?

I'm good. You told me that this is my penalty for writing about the Vikings, but I blame the Jaguars for trading Yannick Ngakwe and forcing me. Yeah, well, that's what I've said, because if you write about the Vikings, then you have to come on and talk about it, because I'm always interested in your opinions and angles, because you do a great job of mixing analytics and film and common sense into your analysis, and all those things those things I think add up to pretty good takes so you graded the move and I just want Vikings fans to brace themselves for a second here you graded it a C and called it risky explain Mr. Ruiz okay well let me say this a C to me is a

perfectly average grade so it wasn't I don't think it was a bad trade for them at the very least they're better in 2020 the reason why i think it's risky i don't think it's risky like in the grand scheme of things i don't think that the vikings are going to look back at this trade and regret it like maybe they feel about the sam bradford trade but there is uncertainty because of the contract situation and the deadline is passed to negotiate a long-term deal. And the Vikings cap situation isn't great. I know that's not breaking news to Vikings fans, although it did get better over the offseason. So it's not a guarantee that this is going to be more than a one-year rental.

And I think giving up a second-round pick and obviously a fifth-round pick, I think it's going to stay a fifth-round pick. I don't think there's a good chance that they're going to meet the conditions for it i think you can go to a third uh yeah so i mean i don't think it's going to be one they regret but it could end up being a very expensive one-year rental the way that i was thinking of this was that if you haven't whispered to the agent here's the numbers that we want to sign you to once you become a Viking, then I'd be shocked that they made it. The other point is, too, that the Vikings, if they want to sign somebody, they get signed.

I mean, if you look at recent history, Anthony Barr is literally a foot out the door and into the New York Jets facility when they grab him and pull him back and say, nope, you stay in here in Minnesota. So anybody that they've ever wanted to keep, if they make that effort, they structure contracts the way that agents seem to like, and that works for everybody. And they have even deals where we say, oh, well, they got that guy for a song like the Neil Hunter's deal. I guarantee you they'll redo it and they'll make it right. So the fact that their ownership is always willing to plunk down money, I'd be shocked if Yannick Ngakwe decided to move on.

The question for me, though, Stephen, is if they give him $22 million a year, is that just too much for Yannick Ngakwe? Yeah, and that's the other side of things. Even if they do get him to a long-term deal, I think it's going to be an overpay no matter what. Because as I wrote, he's kind of in this awkward position where he's really good and he's good enough to demand top dollar, but I don't think he's really good enough to justify it. He's a good pass rusher.

I think at his peak he's maybe even a great pass rusher, but it's not consistent. He's not an elite guy. He's not going to replace Everson Griffin, at least peak Everson Griffin. Even if they do keep him long-term, and I think that's the only way this deal makes sense, is if they lock him down to a big contract, I think it's going to be a bit of an overpay. So that's hence the C, hence the average trade. I don't think they deserve credit because it's not a below-market deal,

which is really the only kind of deal you can celebrate when your team signs or trades for someone. Okay, let's talk about what makes someone a top-notch pass rusher in 2020, because, you know, sack numbers are great, and he's 12th in sacks, and any investigation into sacks versus pressures has found the sacks are what you want. They're not always consistent, they're not always predictable, but if you're getting forced fumbles like he does a lot, and sacks like he does a lot, I mean, that's where the true value in game-changing plays can be. So I think that that is worth paying for. But there's the other side of this that says coverage is kind of king. And even Everson Griffin, I remember looking at PFF's wins above replacement stat that they've been kind of putting out little pieces here or there. And Everson Griffin for the last three years was worth about the same as two years

of Mackenzie Alexander in terms of their wins model, which would freak people out, I'm sure, because Everson is way better at his job than Alexander was at his. But it's coverage versus pressure. And I think you also see a lot of teams that find these Vinnie Curry players or Jabal Sheard, guys that you don't know as stars, but they rotate in and make plays. I think if you're making an argument against this trade, that's where it starts is if you were more patient,

maybe you find rotational rushers that are cheaper than spending it all on this one guy. And that's something the Vikings have really been good at, is finding rotational pass rushers and kind of developing them into a larger role. And we saw that happening with, I'm going to mispronounce his name, Afadia Denebo. Did I do a good job? Good shot. Afadia Denebo, yep.

All right, I was close. Vikings fans, maybe were trying to talk themselves into him, you know, being elevated into that role until the straight happened. You're overpaying for sacks, which is something you probably shouldn't do. And I kind of have a theory on the pass rush coverage debate that I haven't unleashed this take yet, and that's that a great pass rush is valuable because I do think it makes a cornerback's job easier.

And I don't think that's necessarily, like, captured in PFF grades. I've asked them about how they grade cornerbacks, and it's not really based on assignment. So it's not, like, that's why Jalen Ramsey kind of underperforms in these grades because he's shadowing Tyree Kill. He doesn't have help over the top. So when he gets beat, he doesn't get credit for that in the grading. And that kind of applies to a team level thing. Like if you're not playing two deep safeties with help over the top,

your cornerback's going to have an easier job and he's going to look better in the grades. So I think maybe there's a disconnect there when we look at pass rush versus coverage. But I am one of the people on the side that think like build the defense from the back to the front. And that's clearly not what the Vikings are doing, which is kind of odd to me for another reason.

That's because Mike Zimmer is so good at drawing up pressures and scheming up pressure. Like I don't think they needed that second stud pass rusher. And well, now that they have it, it might make things easier for him on the back of the defense. Well, what they're going to have is an opportunity to sign Anthony Harris to an extension if they want to and they're going to also have two corners on rookie deals and another

one that's rookie deal i think goes one more year which would be mike hughes and they can fifth year option him you know at some point here too so you know i think that they have invested a lot in terms of drafts that two first round picks and mike hughes and jeff gladney and then a third round pick in cameron dantzler and they paid more than anybody else for holton hill as an undrafted guy so they've tried to make you know it's a zimmer defense they're not going to leave somebody out um but it's just who's getting paid at this moment and whether they could have had a denabo with other people people. But I think if you're the Vikings and you look at 2020 and 2021, 2020, you just can't say, oh, it's a transition year and write it off.

Because look at the NFC North. I mean, the Packers will regress. The Lions still remain very Lions-y, even if there's reasons to think that they're better. And Chicago, what? So, like, I think if you're the Vikings you look at this as both a short term and a long term and if you sign them okay first year maybe it looks like okay you overpaid but in the long term you have two 25 year old pass rushers who

put up double digit sacks and that's not easy to find and I agree with you that it's not as simple as saying oh coverage is more important than pass rush because they do impact each other I think of it in more of terms of how many times are you letting the other team drop back stand there for three seconds and throw the ball and how many guys can cover for three seconds plus the answer is not too many and so you're definitely right that and I think they would say that too contextualizing all these things is very important yeah I agree with that my I have kind of have this theory on on team building and that's you can afford to overpay guys at what some people might consider non-premium premium positions although I do think edge is a premium position and it really like how good of a

job you do at building your roster is kind of based on which guys you overpay. And I don't think Yannick Ngakwe is really a guy I would want to overpay. I feel like he's more of a luxury. And I don't think the Vikings are in a spot where they can afford luxuries. Like, the Chiefs can afford luxuries because they have Patrick Mahomes. And even if they overpay Chris Jones, it's not going to matter because they're going to score 35 points a game. So that's another problem I have with the deal. And I have a question, and I don't know if you're going to be able to answer it,

but I haven't seen anyone else address it. But Ngakwe took the pay cut. I'm wondering if they're going to be able to use the franchise tag on him next year, and will that 120% increase in salary count against the $13 million or the $17 million? Because I think if they can get it to count against the $13 million, then this is actually a pretty good deal because they're going to be able to lock them down for, what, like $15 million next year. In that case, I think this is actually a valuable deal for the Vikings.

The way that I was looking at it is that it will be possible they could franchise tag him next year, but that's just not going to happen. Like the history on this team is, in fact, Anthony Harris' franchise tag was very rare for the Vikings. They never do this. I think the last franchise tag guy they had was Jim Kleinsaucer or something. I mean, they just don't use it very often because they sign people to extensions because then they can manipulate the cap and, and, or I should say they can time salary cap hits to work off of each other, which is what they do so brilliantly.

So it's an interesting thought that goes with not just, is he a good player? Cause I think we all recognize he is a good player, but how much that's worth and how much they're going to have to invest in the future is really the big question, but also on him as a player. Does it matter to you as a common sense analyst as well as an analytics fan that he's just not very good at all against the run, that he was 61st out of 62 in PFF grades against the run, even though he is effective on a week-to-week

basis in terms of pressuring the quarterback. It doesn't matter to me, but I think it's going to matter to Mike Zimmer, and that probably matters more than whether I care about it. And yeah, I see that when I watched the film of him earlier in the offseason before he was set to hit free agency, and he's more of a gap shooter. He takes chances. He gets a lot of tackles for loss. But like you said, like he's not a sound run defender by any means. And that might anger Mike Zimmer, at least early on. And I wouldn't be surprised if he starts out like as a rotational pass rusher, at least like for the first few weeks as he gets, because he is going to need to get up to speed as he's been camping.

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Sunday, Sunday, Sundays are coming back in the NFL with NFLSundayTicket.tv. You can stream every live, out-of-market NFL game every Sunday afternoon on your favorite devices, plus Red Zone and DirecTV Fantasy Zone channels. Never miss your favorite team and favorite players no matter where you live nfl sunday ticket.tv is your key to the most glorious sundays ever use the promo code blue wire checkout to get 15 off your subscription visit nfl sunday ticket.tv and use promo code blue wire yeah i think so too. And your point about Zimmer and guys being able to play against the run, for this particular defense, it is important for the guys,

the four guys up front so they don't have to move a safety down into the box. Right. And that is like one of the fundamental, this is why you signed Michael Pierce. This is why you overpaid Linval Joseph. This is why in the base package last year, you have Shamar Stephan out there, even though, you know, that's a whole different debate of its own. But, you know, I mean, if someone's getting gashed because they're weaker at this, I think we may see him play on past situations a little bit more than every single

down like Everson Griffin. And that's the thing that I've been trying to say after just, you know, researching him a little bit here today since this trade went down is this is not Everson Griffin. This is just a very different type of player. Right. Yeah, he's more of like a pass rush specialist, which I mean is okay. I think that's – it may not be the case in Mike Zimmer's mind, but he's going to make the most difference on third downs.

So that's when he's going to matter the most. And like you said, I think it's going to be a big deal on early downs because you don't want to bring that safety down, and that's usually why you bring a safety down, to set that edge. And so if he's not holding up his end of the bargain on the edge of the defense, I think they're going to need to adjust the back end of the defense. I don't think Mike Zimmer probably wants to do that. So maybe that's why you'll see him spread out in a more –

at least I think the first few weeks, I don't think he's going to be playing a full rotation of snaps. I just don't see how that works out for him early on. Okay. Last thing I have for you, Steven is your quarterback rankings. It's a great way to look at it. I love the way that you laid it out in your QB rankings where your three

categories were processing throws and creativity. And I think that Vikings fans would have a pretty strong guess at which one Kirk Cousins struggled with. And you ranked him 14th. He's right in the ballpark of not too far behind Matt Stafford. And you still have Aaron Rodgers as a top seven quarterback in the NFL and didn't rank Mitch Trubisky very high at all. In fact, in the countdown, he's the first face you see. So tell me about your process for going about it this way, because I loved it. I thought it was just a different way of looking at it, as opposed to the Madden throw power, throw accuracy, awareness style that I think we've all grown up to look at quarterbacks in. Yeah, and that's how I used to do it.

I've been doing this, I think this was my sixth year, and I've always have used, I think, six attributes. It was like throw, not throw power, but arm strength, accuracy, pocket presence, field vision. And I was like, this is just such a convoluted way of looking at it. And like that, I mean, I feel like overcomplicate how we evaluate quarterbacks it's really two there's two aspects to a play like before the throw and then after the throw does

the quarterback find receivers to throw to and make good decisions and does he get the ball to the receiver and then you add in playmaking because i mean a quarterback there's you know plan a doesn't always work out and you need a plan b and that's obviously where Cousins can falter and I don't think but Cousins has definitely gotten better since Washington he's a far better quarterback than he used to be but I don't know if he's like shored up those weaknesses it's more like he's gotten better at the things he was already good at like the ball still getting out quickly still fairly accurate I think he's better at throwing the ball downfield now that compared to when he was in Washington but it's still that creativity thing and I think that's better at throwing the ball downfield now compared to when he was in Washington. But it's still that creativity thing, and I think that's going to follow him

for the rest of his career. That's just who he is at this point. And usually players like him don't get more athletic or whatever else you can say about his creativity, like what he doesn't do. But I mean, it works for him. And I ranked him 14th, but he could have very easily been 10th or even 9th. Well, in comparison to Rodgers, the way I've always looked at that is, even though they're statistically closer now, in fact, last year in terms of efficiency, you would say Cousins was quite a bit ahead. But if you were playing one game for a million dollars and you got to pick between those two quarterbacks,

the fact that one of them can do some crazy bleep makes it so you would pick Aaron Rodgers. Like, okay, what guy is going to get down 20 and bring you back? Or what guy is going to have, you know, just crazy throws that go 60, 70 yards down the field to get you ahead? I mean, it's probably Aaron Rodgers. Which guy is going to have a play fall apart and he makes a wild throw? I think it's still him, even if that isn't what it used to be. His creativity rating from you is an 88. It would have been 100 like five or six years ago.

So I think that that's the difference, even though on a week-to-week basis, you know, Kirk Cousins is putting up better numbers. Right. I think Kirk Cousins has a higher floor but a lower ceiling, and you tend to want that ceiling in big games. And it wasn't a game for a million dollars, but it was a game for the NFC North last year on Monday night, and we saw Rodgers show up and Cousins didn't really have a great game.

Yep, that's a good point. They have had some good duels in Lambeau, but even last year, Cousins and Lambeau, a problem. There's more of a kryptonite with Cousins, which is how I've thought of it, is if you do X, Y, and Z, you will beat him. I don't think that exists for Aaron Rodgers. So follow Stephen Ruiz at TheStephenRuiz on Twitter, and your podcast is The Counter.

You've got some great guests on there, and I'm really looking forward to, you know, the episodes to come on the counter. And I assume that you can get that Apple, whatever you use. Whenever you get your podcast. Extremely footbally football podcast. Just type that in. And a great logo, by the way, that you have. I made the logo.

Did you? Great. Well, it's basically. It looks like a football play. Exactly. Exactly. Well done. Well, Stephen, again, one of my favorite people to read. Always want to know what you think when anything happens. And you paid your penance for writing about the Vikings by coming on the show.

And I greatly appreciate it, man. We'll do it again soon. Yeah, no problem. Maybe I'll write about the Vikings more in the future just so I can get on. There you go. And you'll be highly paid for dropping by as always. It's like college football players. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. It's the same thing. It's the experience that you're getting on the podcast, helping you become a better podcaster in the future. That's exactly what college football presidents told me to say.

So, again, follow him at TheStevenRuiz, and we'll talk to you again, man. All right. Thanks. Anytime. Hi. My name is Bobby Peters, and I've recently written a book titled The 2017 New England Patriots Pass Game Manual. If you've ever wondered what makes the New England Patriots offense,

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