Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - O-line expert Brandon Thorn wants Trey Smith on the Vikings

Episode Date: February 22, 2025

It's time for an entire episode dedicated to the trenches. For that Matthew Coller only talks to one man, Brandon Thorn of the Trench Warfare Newsletter. They chat Vikings guard needs, d-line fixes and who Brandon thinks the Vikings should target this offseason. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of purple insider Matthew collar here and joining me on the show, a return for a man once known as the O line guy on this show from trench warfare, Brandon Thorne. It's not just offensive line, it's defensive line as well. It's pass rushers. It's the most in-depth analysis of the trenches on earth. What is going on? Brandon? We got a lot to talk about my friend. How are you? I'm doing good, man. It's been a while. I'm happy to be back and, uh, you know,

still seems like the topics remain the same concerns remain the same, but you know, I'm excited to talk about it and it's always good. Well, you're going to bring the deepest offensive guard analysis, but I do want to get into something else with you because you put out amazing pass rush data of you studying all the film of pass rushers and something really popped from your data, which was Jonathan Grenard this year. And I'm curious what you think of his ascension. And then we can get into the interior D line, the different options the Vikings have. But I want to start there because sometimes we focus so much on teams needs and the things that they don't have that we sort of forget

to take a step back and go, wow, Jonathan Grenard went from a good player with a double digit sack season to one of the premier players at his position. I'm just curious what you saw from him going from last year to this year and why he was able to put his name up in that list of the best pass rushers in the league. Yeah, I mean, I feel like the Vikings, you know, caught him at the perfect time, you know, right after that breakout year that he had his last year in Houston and just being really young. I mean, they just, I think it was a timing thing more than anything, you know, just getting him at the beginning now kind of still at the beginning really of his prime. Um, but he just developed his past rush plan,

I think more than anything he, uh, you know, has a variety of different moves to use against guys. He has a lot of speed burst Explosiveness, you know in his game and he's just kind of refined it, you know over the last couple years and now You know, especially last year, you know He lived up to the contract and then some I would say and he just continued to develop Which you know doesn't always necessarily happen. It's not necessarily Linear like that all the time, but it it seems to be and it has been for him the last couple years But yeah, just you know charting, you know some of the ways that he wins

specific move wise Uh, you know, you see kind of a double swipe move to win the outside edge on guys He has a speed kind of chop rip Which is just pure speed off the ball burst get off so he has speed to threaten offensive tackles and they have to respect that and he has a little bit of power, you know, I'd say just that that's probably the the thing that he can develop a little bit more to kind of go to that next level is just add more of that to his game, but he has a good pass first package and a lot of speed and burst and he's obviously in a great defensive scheme. Really the last couple years. So yeah, he's just in a good situation and taking advantage of it.

advantage of it. Yeah, I think what they identified with Grenard was that there was more potential upside for him than just the one season he had been banged up at times throughout his career last year being healthy was a big deal for him. But then somebody who was kind of on the rise and with Daniella Hunter, he had an unbelievable season in Houston. But when you go back to making that decision, Hunter had the neck injury a couple years ago, and age-wise, when pass rushers get toward

the back end of their 20s, early 30s, especially if they came into the league at 20 years old, they are not in their prime anymore, whereas they decided Bernard was kind of a better bet, and they really hit a home run on that. Did you see double-digit sacks coming from Andrew Van Ginkle by the way? I got, I'm not even sure he was on your radar as an edge rusher because he had

been kind of half edge and half linebacker and he just stepped into this position and was so excellent this year for them. Yeah, he's, he's definitely a playmaker, you know, going back to, to Miami. I think he's a well rounded player more than, you know, going back to Miami. I think he's a well-rounded player more than, you know, a high-end pass rusher, I would say, you know, just looking at his true sack rate this year. And not a lot of like, you know, one-on-one wins necessarily. There's maybe like two or three, I think, of those sacks. But you know, I'd say, you know, you know 90 85 of them are just pursuing the ball effort

uh you know winning on stunts being free um so but he's kind of like that you know joker sort of role where he you know moved around takes advantage of openings when they're there um you know you see some of the interceptions were awesome and you know, he's, he's just, he's just a good, well-rounded piece to have, uh, for sure. So, um, yeah, he, he got the Saxon bunches this year, which was, you know, lit up the stat sheet for sure. Um, but yeah, I think more than anything, he's just like, just one of those guys who's easy to overlook prior to this year, you know, without the numbers, but, um, yeah, that's, you know, he, he's a very, very useful player and a good guy to have without the numbers. But yeah, that's you know, he's a very useful player

and a good guy to have in the rotation. That's that's for sure. I think he's a point about fit with your defensive scheme and your defensive coordinator, because that was why Brian Flores wanted him. He knew the potential he had, and they were able to use him in a lot of different ways. He's got kind of for a tall guy, he's got kind of this bendiness to him to where if they need to do a stunt with him, he could kind of swing around so quickly and cut that edge. And I think that they really understood exactly what he does well there and how to get

him in those positions to get sacks. And then the fact that he drops back more than anybody else at the edge rusher position in the NFL adds something that quarterbacks aren't always seeing from that position. I do want to know what you think about Dallas Turner because Van Ginkle and Grenard were so good this year that it didn't really open the door for Dallas Turner to be on the field very much. At the end of the season, Turner starts to get into the game a lot more and has a little bit of success.

Some splash plays, a great interception, a really impressive sack against the Bears, but left a lot to be desired versus some other, verse is, if you get it, the Jared verse, some other rookies that were out there putting up better numbers than him. I am very curious to see how they use him, how he potentially puts on more weight. So I wonder what you thought of him coming out versus kind of what he needs to do

to get to be an impact player for the Vikings in the future. Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I don't really study pass rushers coming into the NFL, uh, necessarily. So it's more so once they're in. So I didn't have a strong take on him coming in aside from seeing him studying when studying college offensive lineman, you see the physical tools and the traits in terms of burst explosiveness. You could tell he's a really good athlete, of course, and things like that.

And he has some bend around the corner. So aside from that I didn't have much more of a you know strong take there but you know just looking at his numbers this year of you know charting his pressures and you know the couple sacks he did have from what I remember I think it was early in the year and looking at his stats here a little bit more I think it was the Andrew Thomas. He had a couple week one against the Giants against their left tackle Andrew Thomas. He had a couple good rushes against him that I remember that really stood out. But aside from that, I don't really remember him doing a whole lot and I haven't, you know, focused in on him enough to really like, you know, provide much more than that. But I do

think what you say, what you said in terms of, you know, playing behind a really good edge rushing group, who were in great roles for them was a part of it. You know, he wasn't necessarily, you know, it's kind of the chicken or egg thing, like, was he not needed as much? Or was he not ready enough? I think that's probably up for debate, you know, it's kind of the chicken or egg thing like was he not needed as much or was he not ready enough? Um, I think that's probably up for debate, you know on the outside looking in i'm not totally sure You know whereas verse, you know, he's drafted to be the guy day one. He's the number one head rusher on the team No questions asked Uh before he ever really took a snap Um, so it's just a different situation, uh than verse which I think is worth pointing out So it's just a different situation than verse, which I think is worth pointing out.

And then, you know, in terms of where Turner was throughout the year, flashes, you know, I guess is all that was there. And what he does moving forward, I mean, I'm interested to see because obviously, when you spend that draft capital on a guy, you want him to take that next step. So we'll see. Yeah, flashes is exactly the way that I would describe it enough to keep you interested. It was not a situation where it was like Lewis scene where they draft him and then we never see him on the football field. The fact that Turner got more and more play as he went along and showed more and more flashes, uh, makes him very intriguing going forward. But you're right, the bar is set extremely high

when you're drafting someone that high and trading up to get him in a year where there were a lot of good pass rushers in that area of the draft. So let's get to the hardcore stuff. Guards, Brandon, guards. My gosh, the first time that you and I ever talked for a podcast, I believe was maybe 2017. And who would

believe it? What were we talking about? guards always with the guards. And they've cycled through in our time knowing each other and your time doing trench warfare, probably about 15 different human beings that were there starting guards in there. I don't think they've had any year where it was the same two guys playing next to the center again, since going back to 2016. I don't even remember the last time that they had two. So that would be nice.

Give me your assessment of this free agent crop of guards because Trey Smith is so far and a way. The guy that is going to have every team making that phone call, every team trying to bring in Trey Smith. And he's not going to be franchised by the Kansas city chiefs, which to me says potentially overpaid, but also could have a huge impact on a team. So give me like, how strong is this free agent crop that the Vikings are But also could have a huge impact on a team so Give me like how strong is this free agent crop that the Vikings are clearly going to have to dip into in order to

Rebuild the guard position maybe once and for all I don't know about you guys, but I tend to have an impulse buy Problem I'm always signing up for stuff and then forgetting about it And then I end up getting charged month after month. Well, it turns out that I am not alone. In fact, I just learned that 85% of people have at least one paid subscription going unused each month. Thanks to Rocket Money though, I now can see all of my subscriptions in one place and cancel the ones that I am not using anymore. And now folks, I am saving money. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending and helps you lower your bills so you can

grow your savings. Rocket Money has over 5 million users that have saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions, reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to rocketmoney.com slash purple insider. That is rocketmoney.com slash purple insider today.

Yeah, I mean, it's not super strong in terms of like any long term like young guys, you know, as free agency often is, I mean, you know, you're not going to find like a long term answer usually in free agency unless you're paying top of the market. So, you know, it's kind of more of the same here with the guard class just looking at it. I mean, there's some relatively young guys, but they all carry question marks in terms of injuries Like you look at Will Hernandez Tevin Jenkins Both coming off pretty significant injuries with Jenkins. I think potentially having a chronic issue with his back Will Hernandez I think it was an ACL is a lower body injury this year that ended his year

But Hernandez is a guy who's playing really well for the Cardinals the last couple years So he's a he's a guy, you know worth looking at James Daniels Steelers right guard kind of in a similar sort of level of player as those guys I would say Also coming off a major injury So those three, you know all injuries injuries right there. And there's, you know, some older guys, you know, Zitler, Scherf, kind of, you know, stopgap kind of guys at this point in their career. Yeah, it depends if you want the aging veteran short term kind of guy like Scherf, Zitler, or you want to take a chance on one of these younger kind of injury, you know,

And so one of these younger kind of injury, uh, you know, late in guys, um, aside from those guys though, it's, it's just a, a bunch of guys who are, you know, it could be okay for you. I think like adult and Reisner, you know, I mean, like those, those level guys who have deficiencies in their game and, you know, but are good enough in some areas to kind of get by. With a Trey Smith. I mean, if he's going to get $25 million a year, now the cap's going up.

And one thing that has to be considered, too, is that there's always sticker shock on the day someone signs a massive contract. And then two years later, Amazon and Netflix have bought 700 more football games. And the cap goes up and we go, wow, that contract doesn't look so bad. Like the same thing with the Viking signing Christian Derrissa early now looks brilliant because it's a lower percentage of the cap than it would have been even just when they signed the deal. Still one player at guard for that much money is a lot to invest.

It is Trey Smith of that level that you think he could transform an offensive line, uh, with his ability. So there's aspects of his game that definitely are transformative in terms of, but they're, they're not very, uh, easy to, to measure, I would say. And it's, it's kind of the classic, you know, he he's a he's a tone setting presence on the offensive line in a way He has the size the length and the power and the demeanor To kind of assert himself on guys and then you know bring an impact in the run game in particular But also pass protection, but when he's uncovered

Bring an impact in the run game in particular but also pass protection, but when he's uncovered Um, so that's not going to really be a a graded rep, you know He nobody he's not blocking anybody and then he's finding work and he's going to destroy somebody Um, you know, uh like like that kind of stuff. Um, so He's able to do that at a level that is on par with quentin nelson Um, you know wyatt teller Uh, you know, he's that kind of guy Do that at a level that is on par with quentin nelson um You know wyatt teller You know, he's that kind of guy. Um But like those guys, uh, he's not he's not a technician

You know, uh, he's not joe toony, you know When he became the richest guard in the nfl for the chiefs a few years ago. He signed the richest deal ever Um just a totally different sort of vibe and player that you're getting. Tooney's the technician who's gonna grade well, he's gonna do all the little things right, be in the right spots, never really lose glaringly. Trey's not that.

He's gonna lose glaringly sometimes. He's gonna get caught in pass protection against the high end guys and lose clean here and there, but it's just everything else he's bringing And you got to kind of weigh that and determine, you know where your offensive line is Do you already have that technician guy then? You know sure, you know go for Trey because I think he's probably worth it then but if you're counting on him to be this You know this pristine guy, you know in terms of technique and things like that, I just don't know that

that's him. And then you also have to weigh just sort of all the things, he's extremely safe to bet on in terms of football character, what he's going to do, like community-wise and like teammate worker, and then, oh, he's coming from KC. So he has you know several rings He has kind of you know, you want to get some of that KC, you know Juice off of there, you know, you know what I mean as well Just kind of that, you know his vibes and everything that he's bringing from there, you know I'm just what he can bring leadership wise. So You know all things considered. I think he's probably gonna get a little overpaid things considered I think he's probably gonna get a little overpaid you know considering he he isn't you know like an elite level pass protector but he's solid for sure and he got better this year this was the best year of his

career I thought for sure in terms of past protection so I think he's sort of trending in the right direction and he's still so young you know you're getting him in the middle you know early parts of his prime. So I think it depends on kind of where you're at and what you're going to be asking him to do and what your expectations are and the scheme and things like that to where it factors in a pretty great deal.

And that's why I've been a little bit wary of that price tag and I know the Vikings have a lot of money to spend. So if they do overspend, as I said, I'm not going to criticize them too much because they've set up their cap to go all in on somebody. But I also look at it as when you need two and potentially three positions, which will get into the center spot as well.

But when you need two or three positions, putting everything into one guy and then hoping and praying at the other position sounds not too dissimilar from what they've been doing. Well, I guess we'll move a tackle over to guard again. And then, you know, then the other team just goes after the weak point of the offensive line time and time again. So I wonder if you have somebody that's a little bit more down the line that might make a little more sense. So let me ask you specifically about Mackay Bekden because he's a free agent here.

He was playing with the best offensive line in the league and that's gotta help a lot. At the same time, I'm very intrigued by the upside of Mackay Bekden because when I was looking at his numbers, his pressures allowed the first six weeks of this season were kind of a disaster for him at guard. And then after that, he was really terrific. He was one of the better guards in the league by the numbers. And I think that there's growth potential with him. Just like we were talking about with Jonathan Grenard, you're trying to grab somebody who's on the upswing in free agency, not necessarily. And all respect to like Brandon.

Sure. If we've talked about him on this show a million times, but like, that's not an upswing guy. That's not a three or four year contract guy that you're hoping to grow with. And I think continuity is really important. I'd rather see them look for somebody like that. But do you think he has that potential? Yeah.

I mean, back then, yeah, I definitely do. Just considering his age, his inexperience at the position, this being his first year ever playing inside at guard, he did progressively get more comfortable and better at what he was doing out there. So, and then she's look at his traits, pedigree, that kind of thing. You know, there's the obvious question of, you know, his traits, pedigree, that kind of thing. You know, there's the obvious question of, you know,

can he sustain this outside of the Philly infrastructure? You know, Coach Stoutland playing next to the best right tackle in the league, you know, really good center in Juergens, you know, that kind of thing. And just having that much, you know, around him to where he could step out, can he step out and be more of the guy for somebody? I think that's a question that, you know, remains to where he could step out. Can he step out and be more of the guy for somebody?

I think that's a question that you know remains to be seen but I think it's a good bet You know depending on the numbers, of course, you know what you're paying them and all that sort of stuff But you know at a reasonable price, I think it's a really good bet to make and I think for Minnesota in particular it makes a lot of sense because And I think for Minnesota in particular it makes a lot of sense because you do have sort of more of kind of finesse kind Of guys and you know in O'Neill I right tackle and Bradbury at center So, you know putting an enormous giant at right guard like that I think would provide some help in you know in past protection with his length his size his ability to anchor things like that I think that's a nice kind of mix

But just to circle back for a sec on Trey I was talking, you know Trey Smith just more generally speaking for Minnesota You know as I'm thinking about that line and the way it's constructed. I do think that makes a lot of sense actually because you know Just look at what Minnesota was able to patch together last year with Reisner and Brendel and I mean You know just you did it with two guys now You would just need to do with one with Trey there and Trey would do some of the same sort of stuff I think he would help him kneel a lot in past protection because of his style and

He would really help him and then he would also help Bradbury a lot as well And he wouldn't need to be the guy he's he's going to be the third best starter there um you know maybe second uh you know after having the tackles in place that's what i was kind of talking about generally is if he's not being counted on to be the guy which in Minnesota i don't think you would be um then that's a great spot for Trey i think uh so yeah but if you want to go the cheaper route, I think back then makes sense. Well, what you said also about Trey Smith and tone setting that pinged in my mind, because this was a soft interior offensive line. I mean, you get to third and two, they had to pass every single time you get to the goal line. They're trying to run sweeps with receivers, just anything to not go up the middle.

And that's just not a sustainable way to play football. You need to be able to score from the one yard line by just slamming forward and getting a touchdown. And they could not do that in any short yardage situation. There was a crazy stat that one of the writers had, I think it's Ben Gessling, friend of the show, that they, Aaron Jones got hit in the backfield more than 50% of the time in short yardage situations,

which is just crazy. Like this can't happen. So tone setting worth it. And I agree. I mean, if you put a nasty player next to Brian O'Neill on the right side, and that is a group you can run behind for sure. The center, the center. And I was also thinking with Bechton size, my goodness, you'd have two, six, seven guys over there. Uh, with the center position, I have been a Garrett Bradbury defender in recent years, not so much early in his career, but I think that he made a lot of progress. And I think he's played better under Chris Cooper, their offensive line coach and in KOC system this year,

it felt like toward the end of the year, especially there was some regression from him. And I think a major part of it is what we talked about with the guards where it's always somebody new next to him. It's only Udo. It's Blake, Brando. These guys have never even played guard before. And Hey, go double team block with him. At the same time, there is an issue that will never be solved with him, which is size.

He is never gonna be 320 pounds. And for an offense that wants to have a lot of straight drop back game and wants to run guys down the field, I feel like Garrett Bradbury at this point would be a better fit somewhere else. In an outside zone Puremore outside zone type of system a quick game type of system something he could get out on screens

I just think that's better for him How do you feel about that as far as his fit at center because I think it's kind of gotten to the point where It's like if you guys need to drop back and hold the ball for three and a half seconds to throw it That just can't really be your guy you guys need to drop back and hold the ball for three and a half seconds to throw it. That just can't really be your guy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, considering that what you're asking him has changed. I think that's a good point. And it's, it's, you know, it's valid. It's worth, you know, exploring. Um, I would just, you know, say just looking at what's the replacement options out there. And I don't know that you're going to find anybody that's going to move the needle necessarily in free agency or the draft potentially the draft.

There's a guy named Gray's able from North Dakota state, you know, it's going to be some, you know, team's top center on the board, but it's not a great center class. It's not like last year, which was an all time, great center class. This year you might get one or two guys at center who could step in right away and play So if you want to draft somebody in the first two rounds, you know at center Maybe third round, you know, you could go that route if you sign a tray or something like that And you want to just start over at center, you know that I think would make some sense

But I just don't there's not like a lot of a lot of shots, you know that that I think would make some sense, but I just don't there's not like a lot of A lot of shots, you know that you could take Uh free agency or the draft I think um to where you're going to really upgrade that very much. So um You know, I like ryan kelly is a free agent, uh, but he's you know, he's in his 30s has a lot of injuries on his track record Yeah, ryan kelly is stronger bigger. He fits track record. Yeah, Ryan Kelly is stronger, bigger. He fits that mold. Do you want to take a chance there?

I guess it depends on the contract. It's just, you could poke holes in all the guys that, you know, could potentially replace Brad Berry. So it's like, you know, based on his familiarity and things like that. And if you put a guy like Trey next to him or even Bechtin or even, you know, a step down from that, like Will Hernandez, you know, just like the one of these big giant kind of guards. Maybe that'll just help him enough to where, you know, the things that he does do well or, you know, able to shine a little bit more and the things that he doesn't do or it would be, you know, mitigated a little bit more.

able to shine a little bit more in the things that he doesn't do or it would be, you know, mitigated a little bit more. So it's just, yeah, I think there's, you know, a lot of different approaches that you could take here. Uh, so, you know, I just think if there was more better options, you know, out there, then I'd be a little bit more like, you know, enthusiastic about replacing him. But I just don't know that there are. I would just like to see one time, Garrett Bradbury playing alongside Trey Smith and Kevin Zeitler.

And let's just see. Like, I don't expect him to be Frank right now, or, you know, one of the best, the next Jason Kelsey or something stable, right? Just maybe guys who know what they're doing for an entire season. And I thought that at least in 2022 and 2023, that his performances were a little bit like solid, not ever going to be this dominant

pass protector, but at least solid. He's a smart player. He's a good run blocker. Just put it because that's the thing about, and I know you question PFF grades and things like that. And my thing about PFF grades with lineman is every single one of them all has its own context to it. Right. Like every pressure statistic, it all has its own context. Who were you playing next to? How were you playing? Who was your quarterback? All those things play into it. And I think we've

seen some ups and downs in Bradbury's numbers based on who he was playing at the same time. I think it still stands that being that undersized is going to be a disadvantage. And just, just to tap on that too, like, uh, just to finish that too, I think it's worth pointing out to like later in the year, if guy is Undersized going into a season the end of the year Players typically lose weight as the year goes on So, you know you're starting maybe he's trying to battle to get to 300 to start the year I can almost guarantee he's not 300 pounds by the end of the year. So he's he's even more under pounds by the end of the year. So he's even more undersized, you know, and lighter

as the year goes on. And then you couple that with being dinged up. I mean, it's just going to probably drop off, you know, for the duration of his career. Honestly, I mean, it's very rare when a guy's undersized and he's able to sustain either his size or his health or his play enough throughout the year. That's why I think part of the reason why teams like size so much because it's it's durable, right? They kind of go hand in hand a little bit there. So Yeah, I just think that's worth pointing out to it's just gonna be something that probably is reoccurring. No, it's a great point and I think when you actually look at his numbers and Grades and pressures allowed and things like that you can very clearly see that last quarter of the season because I remember

looking at it even last year and then this year again through week 12, week 13 and going, man, he's having a good year. And then the, when you would get the final numbers and he ranks 29th or something like, well, that, that kind of matches up with what I saw. And that is a potential reason to look possibly somewhere else. Let's talk about the draft with the offensive line. There's one guy who's really standing out to me

above all else with the 24th pick and that would be Tyler Booker. I don't know if you see other first round guards. It's a position where somebody's usually got, they gotta be pretty freakish. Like that Jersey behind you, Quentin Nelson. You gotta be pretty freakish to get a high pick. But Booker is a gigantic human being.

Six foot five, well over 300 pounds. We'll see what he weighs in at the combine, but he's a freak. Is that somebody who's worth a first round draft pick at that position, knowing the Vikings do have some other needs, but this one's pretty serious. I think probably so. You know, I have a high second round grade on him, but that typically gets a

bump, you know, when you're talking about that caliber of prospect. And the reason why I just don't have him as a sure fire first is because I still think he has things in his game to clean up, even though he got a lot better from 2023 to 2024 He lost a significant amount of weight He played 350 plus in 2023 and then he you know on my film room He was telling me this too and last year he played around 330 So I think that helped him improve his game a substantial amount this past year and

He kind of surprised me, you know with how much cleaner his game a substantial amount this past year. And he kind of surprised me, you know, with how much cleaner his game was this year. And it's really nice to see going into the draft with a lot of momentum and his trajectory is headed in the right direction, even played left tackle this year for a game against South Florida. So he and he played well. so he's he he definitely has some makings of like a late first round pick Early second I compared him to Osiris Torrance Which kind of got you know, he got drafted in that same sort of range for the bills at right guard That's the kind of caliber of card I can foresee him being in the nfl But yeah, I mean certainly there's no

Secret on what he brings, you know in terms of size power kind of you know, he it's funny enough He told me in the film room. He models his game after trey smith So that's that's his kind of guy, you know that he's been able to work with a little bit at masterminds Because trey works there or you work out works out there and booker's training there for the draft as well. So That's kind of the archetype that you're going for is a Trey Smith And I think a lot of the same things that we talked about in terms of you know This isn't an elite level pass protector. This isn't a guy who you know may grade

You know the highest all the time in that, you know regard but it's very clear what he's going to bring in the run game demeanor Uh, you know anchoring Uh, you know things like that So and by all accounts he's i've heard a quote thrown around that he's like the will anderson Of the offensive side of the ball at alabama in terms of just consummate leader teammate offensive side of the ball at Alabama in terms of just consummate leader, teammate, you know, takes ownership of himself and, you know, getting better and all those sorts of things. So you're like, there's some parallels here with Trey Smith, I think, interestingly enough.

So you know, and in hindsight, Trey was probably a first round pick. But he had, of course, all his health health stuff to work through. So yeah, it makes sense to me You know right now he's my highest graded true guard in the draft Um, you know, I I think a lot of these tackles have a chance of playing inside So depending on how you feel about that, um, you know the guard rankings, you know It could get muddied a little bit there But in terms of just a guy who played guard in college who's going to play garden pro in in the pro game, he's my top guard in the draft. So yeah, late first round, I think. Something that I've been noticing, Brandon, I'm writing a story about it. I talked with Justin Pugh for a story about how guards and their pressures allowed in grades have gone down over

the last number of years on the whole as an entire group and I think life has gotten so much harder to Be a guard because of the number of Aaron Donald wannabes that come into the league guys who would have been defensive ends in the past now play DT the Amount of different stuff that defensive coordinators are throwing at these guys the stunts of twists We talked about Van Ginkle while the guards on the other side is a nightmare for them. And I think character is, is becoming like maybe a little higher in that guard. And I mean like football IQ, how hard are you willing to work with it? How well you work with others? Can you be friends with your guys because you need to communicate and the defensive tackles, they just need to come at the quarterback. But the linemen, they need to communicate really well.

So I think stuff like that is important. I also noticed in the data that in previous years, there was kind of a mix of who became the best pass protectors. It's like a fifth round guy developed in this guy or that guy. Lately, it's kind of been the guards that have ever picked high, which I know like hot hot take right. Picking the guys higher, but it's been a little more consistent with that. And I think it's becoming a position that is worth drafting higher. It's kind of like we've talked about with running back, like, Hey, teams are running the ball more now running back being drafted high doesn't seem so ridiculous. I kind of feel the same way about a guard. If a guy is going to be worth it, that position is being attacked so much by defenses that that can be a difference maker. So if the Vikings spent 25 mil on Trey Smith and spent a first round draft pick on a guard,

they would get zero complaints from me. I mean, that would be awesome. I would love to see that if they got Booker and Trey Smith, holy smokes Dude, that would be that'd be a total shift from anything that you or I have seen since we started talking That's for sure. I mean Booker and Trey Surrounding Bradbury and then helping the tackles they go. I'm like, yeah, I'm all for that, too I mean, you know, you know the rest of the roster, you know be be damned, I guess. But yeah, those guards, man, that would, but seriously, that would change the entire identity of the offense, you know, if you, if you did something like that. So that's fun to think about.

I'm for it. And I think Kevin O'Connell would be too. I think he's probably a little tired of all the free agent money going to the defensive side. Let's talk about that defensive tackle a major issue for me. They have patchworked this thing really well. You got to give Brian Flores credit. Jonathan Buller was a guy who barely played in the league and then is playing 50% of snaps and did really well as a run stopper. They brought in Tillery. They rotated some guys in. We saw more of Jalen Redmond and players like that. There's not a difference maker there. And Harrison Phillips is one of those Mr. Consistent type players. I actually think he

struggles with that issue you talked about with weight sometimes. Beginning of the season, maybe he's over 300, by the end, maybe not, but not a game changing defensive tackle, more of a do your job, like leader solid guy there, a good against the run, the occasional pressure. Everybody wants Milton Williams in the Superbowl. Everybody wants the next Aaron Donald. But I think there's opportunity here. When I look at the free agent market, when I look at the draft, especially to get some game changing defensive tackles into this building.

Where would you go with it? Would you prefer to spend if I gave you the option draft in the first round defensive tackle or spend $20 million a year on Milton Williams or also dig a zoo? I think of the top two there. Which direction would you rather go? Well, it's a good question. I know a decent amount of the defensive tackle class. Definitely the biggest name, Mason Graham.

He's probably going to be a top 10 pick. So assuming he's probably out of the equation, then you're looking at Walter Nolan, Derek Harmon, Tyleek Williams, Kenneth Grant. There's some good guys there. I don't know if there's any needle moving type of guys, maybe Nolan or Harmon. I tend to lean towards free agency just because honestly,

it's just because I know those guys so much more, you know, in terms of their game. So in terms of Milton Williams and even also Digizuo, I think it's really underrated. I think both those guys would probably be worth it, generally speaking. Now, I just think for the Vikings, I don't know that you need to spend a whole lot considering how well the team manufactures pressure. So to me, I think you could, you know, I don't want to say skimp, but you could you know not spend top dollar at this position in particular With who you have calling the shots defensively and and just how well he you know schemes up guys getting home

To where if you just had maybe a kind of a similar caliber player as Harrison Phillips Although more of a pass rusher Whereas Phillips is just a solid run defender if you could get more of like a kind of a twitchy You know Splashy kind of pass rusher who's young who couldn't have room to develop who's cheap You know relatively speaking whether that's you know second third fourth round of the draft as opposed to the first or you know Some of like maybe more of a second tier

Defensive tackle that's kind of the route that I would like to take. Now I'm not going to be mad. Obviously if you get, you know, you get Milton Williams or Osiris, Osiris, then you don't have to be as creative with manufacturing pressure there because they could do more of that on their own. But it's a pretty deep, deep defensive tackle class just in terms of free agents that I'm, you know, just seeing here, like of free agents that I'm you know Just seeing here like an interesting guy that I always think is underrated

From for a long time is DJ Jones You know from the Broncos Niners You know kind of an undersized guy who plays a lot of nose tackle, but also three technique But he's just a very difficult guy to block. He has very good natural leverage, very quick, and he's actually pretty strong. He's just a good guy to have, you know, in the defensive tackle rotation. And I can't imagine he's going to be super expensive. Now he is a little bit older, but I think you really know what you're getting there with DJ Jones.

I mean, of course, Javon Hargraves out there as well older coming off a torn tricep But I mean Hargraves a monster when he's healthy, you know, I don't I don't know what the cost is there But he's a viable option to look at But you could find some some guys deep in the in the free agent class Levi on Zaraike from the Lions is out there Who has had some nice moments who could be a you know, a nice piece of the rotation I'm trying to think here like Quentin Jefferson's also a guy who you know has done some of that He's more of you know, third fourth wave of the rotation sort of guy. So I think that there's some guys out there that are Interesting, you know, there's there's a lot of different ways to go about it.

And I think that's a great thing about the scheme that you guys have. So I'm not as bullish on spending a lot there as I am at maybe like guard. Anzari Gay had nine pressures against the Vikings. So trust me, he's made my list. That'd be a great one. He just, but you know, this year he kind of took this big step forward in terms of the number of pressures he created. And I think even just development wise as a third round draft pick and that, that angle

of trying to find a guy who can just be above what you've had in the past, which is kind of bottom barrel, just patch it together, and then drafting someone in the middle of the draft, they don't have a ton of picks. That's the unfortunate part. But even if it's a third round pick and it's Darius Alexander from Toledo, who I saw was getting a lot of buzz at the senior bowl,

and then had amazing numbers as a pass rusher on the interior as a Mac guy, I'm always intrigued by those types of players and we've seen some third rounders develop. Uh, Matt, a BK was another one from the Ravens. We've seen these guys develop over a couple of years. So I don't mind that. A BJ Hill would be another one where you'd have kind of a better version of Harrison Phillips, like a super solid guy can get after the passer a little, but just an upgrade there. I don't think it necessarily has to be breaking the bank, but I feel like Brandon, if this

defense gets that with the scheme that they have, the pressures they create, and if they can do it with four, because that was the biggest issue, Matthew Stafford and Jared Goff can pick apart the middle of the field when you blitz them all day. Having the option to rush with four is something that they just haven't had since Brian Flores has gotten here. Yeah, it would be a nice thing to have. Of course, anytime you could rush for four, regardless of your scheme, um, you're at an advantage for sure. So I'm totally with you there.

And, uh, I think you could probably achieve that, uh, by going the route that we talked about to where it's more of a second tier defensive tackle and you know A third fourth round defensive tackle because you have good edge rushers. I mean you're expecting Dallas Turner to take a step So you have a three-man rotation there at least? At edge and then if you can have a little bit of a rotation inside I think you could probably achieve that more I mean you're not gonna be you know the Giants back in the day or the you know The chiefs of Chris Jones or something like that It's not like you're gonna be able to rush forward and elite level

But if you could do it in an above average level I think that's achievable with the way it's constructed now and that approach more of more of a conservative approach I think you could do it I mean threading a little bit smaller of a needle, but I don't think it's I don't think it's, you know, too out of the question to do that. I think it's it's feasible to do that for sure. And the opportunity is there for the Vikings in these two areas that you and I have talked about forever to be much, much better.

Do it, do it finally. Do it. Yeah. So then we can talk about it after they make these signings. You could break it down more in depth and we could be rather than going, I guess maybe he could move from tackle the guard. Maybe Tom comp. Yeah. Maybe Tom comps. Oh yeah. Yeah. The Mike Remmers. Yikes. That did not work out. Instead. Hey, now they have maybe a great O line or D line. That's what they need to achieve.

I think for this off season to be a success. One more question for you, Brandon, before I let you go. I wanna know what your favorite or most interesting storyline for the off season is. It does not have to be O line or D line, but just something as we get rolling here, get to the combine, I know you're going to be out the combine. I will be too. What do you, what do you want to know? What are you thinking about? Like, man, this,

this one domino to fall or this one team, what's on your mind? I just think the, the bigger picture idea of the way that the league seems to be trending in terms of getting bigger more physical um, you know with the eagles winning the super bowl with you know, Such an advantage on the offensive and defensive line and I know, you know This is that was an organizational win more than anything, but their emphasis on the trenches certainly is one of the takeaways. So typically we see the NFL look at the Super Bowl winner, Super Bowl teams and try to emulate some of their process.

So I would love to see this off season to what degree do teams invest in the trenches? Does it change significantly in terms of draft capital, money spent in free agency, just how things are constructed. And then as the season gets going, just in terms of how much more of an emphasis is the running game or just, I just wanna see, and then also running backs is a piece of that as well.

But yeah, I just wanna kind of see if the league does in fact continue to trend in that direction and to what degree does it expand or not this off season. I think that's really interesting to me. Brandon Thorne, once known as the O-line guy, Trench Warfare. Now, you are the expert that everybody goes to to talk offensive and defensive lines, sir. I love what you have done with Trench trench warfare over the last couple of years. You got these interviews with prospects that you're doing.

You got unique data that's done from your tracking. I am a paying subscriber to your newsletter, sir. And I will continue to be doing that. I really appreciate your insight, your work, all the effort that you put in to shining light on the dark arts of the NFL on the offensive line. So thank you for your time. Great to catch up with you, man. And absolutely when the Vikings make these signings and draft picks, you will be back on the show. Thanks,

dude. Absolutely, man. My pleasure.