Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - O'Connell non-committal on McCarthy's return, Jackson has surgery (Part 2)

Episode Date: September 23, 2025

Matthew Coller talks about Kevin O'Connell's comments on JJ McCarthy's potential return and Carson Wentz's play vs. Cincinnati. Plus Donovan Jackson will miss the upcoming games due to wrist surgery. The Purple Insider podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Mr. Mayor, it's hard to overstate how rough this injury is for J.J. McCarthy. He might not get back on the field as much, that much this year. So next year could be rookie season attempt three. See, that's where I would, that's where I would probably disagree is that practicing and being actually able to do stuff and run a scout team and actually run practices against the first team defense for a full year is much different. And I probably didn't factor that enough, but it might, I think it might be much different because we saw, and I know, Mahomes, he's like the best, but we saw Mahomes do that. We saw Rogers. We saw love those quarterbacks do that and they didn't play. But also the preseason. It's, it's hard to not play them in the preseason at all. Preseason has become more of a joke. So that's more difficult. It's not an easy thing, man. It's not an easy thing. I totally agree with dark EXP that the Vikings defense. was severely missing Harrison Smith.

Okay, so I'm going to try to do this on the fly here to bring in my friends Brian Murphy and Mani Hill. And let's hope everything works out with that. So it's just take me a second here to get our roundtable going. But appreciate you guys and the patience for the ranting in the first part of the show. And we can have a more reasonable conversation here with these guys. Ryan, you got me? You good? I hope so. I hear you. Do you hear me? Okay. So I'm not, I'm not hearing you. I think maybe the audiences, though. So you guys can let me know. Okay. Give me a second. Okay. Now go ahead. I'm hearing you just fine. Okay. Yep. Yep. Yep. You got me. Okay. So just let me know guys in the comments. If you got Murph, okay. This is the first time we're doing this on the fly of bringing in the guests this way in the middle of the show. So you just have to be patient with me here. but I think we're good.

I think we are good to go. And there's Manny. So, hi, Manny. Good evening. Okay. All right. Everybody good.

So you got Murf? You got Manny? All right. Yes. Great. Okay. So, guys, I spent the first hour of the show.

Maybe you can tell my face is a little red here. Just this situation with the quarterback. This is where we have to begin and pick up on. As great as the game was yesterday. KOC talk. today. It certainly sound like he was very happy with the way Carson Wentz played. There was a lot of couching for J.J. McCarthy and his youth and trying to do the best by him and all that sort of stuff. Let's start with Manny here. What have you been thinking about throughout the

day with the quarterback situation? What's been going through my mind, you know, really ever since the game ended yesterday, is just what are they going to do with this play from Carson and Wentz continues. I mean, and this is, you know, he played pretty well yesterday and this was, you know, this is despite him only being with the team for three weeks. And so, you know, how is this going to change over the next couple of weeks, you know, if he continues to play and gets even more acclimated with an offense that he has some experience in the past with with the Los Angeles Rams a couple of years ago, you know,

how is he going to continue to play even better over the next couple of weeks he's going to have an opportunity to Pittsburgh Steelers defense doesn't look very good so far the first couple of weeks of the season um we know Cleveland's defense is pretty good but that's also a team that's just overall not very good so there's going to be some opportunities for him to play well uh in these in these games over in Europe so to me it's going to be they win these next two games and they're four and one and Carson Wentz is playing really well, what do you do? What do you do? And I'm not sure we have a real like, I'm not sure there's a real definitive answer here because J.J. McCarthy is still thought of as the future of this franchise as the guy that they're going to continue to

try and build and try and win with long term. But, you know, for the sake of this season, And if Wentz continues to play well and McCarthy still hasn't made the necessary strides to improve as a young quarterback, I don't know how you go away from Carson Wins if he continues to play at this level. What do you think, Murph? The good thing is, is KLC doesn't have to make that decision right now, that definitive decision. I think you even wrote about this today, caller, that he can't put himself in a box, you know?

a couple of you vultures tried to put him in a box today and that's that's the job because that's what everybody's thinking but he he hedged beautifully he did not allow himself to be uh locked into jj's my guy 100% no matter what happens over the next few weeks and he also didn't put himself in a similar box saying Carson Wentz has shown me so much it's going to be hard to go away from that what we're trying what we're doing is we're projecting what will things look like in two to four weeks? And we don't know that yet. We got a little glimpse of it yesterday. We got a glimpse of it through some efficient quarterback play. Wence did exactly what the Vikings need him to do, but also any quarterback.

Whether it's J.J. McCarthy or Carson Wentz, that looks like the blueprint for success. Pound a team with the running game. Pound him defensively. You got to a tenacious defense that's capable of scoring almost every week. I don't think you could rely on five turnovers and 14 points. But some variation of that, you got a kicker who seems to be able to make a kick from anywhere. It doesn't have to be J.J. McCarthy. And it doesn't have to be Carson Wentz driving the bus. Just keep it on the road. Yeah. I mean, I think if you are in the coaching room and everybody knows that in this league, things can change really fast you can go from coach of the year and a genius to the hot seat in

two seconds flat and remember let's just keep in mind yeah well there's that i mean Brian bable how about Kevin o'connell i mean in 2002 Kevin o'connell is touted as the genius coach gets Kirk cousins to play a certain way and then the very next summer we're asking mark wilf hey are you going to give a contract extension to Kevin o'connell and he's like, let's wait and see. I mean, that's, that is just how fast things happen, even with a great ownership who is as reasonable and even keel. I'm not saying that they have a bad season this year.

Everyone's fired or anything, but coaches know this, right? The reason coaches always say, so what have you done for me lately league is because it's absolutely true. It is whatever just happened is the truth. And we know that from a week to week when we get the results from the end of Sunday. and we go, wow, everything I thought was completely wrong because, you know, it all can change so fast. So they're going into each meeting talking about how do we beat the Pittsburgh Steelers. That's how laser focus they're going to be.

And what O'Connell has to juggle here as we go forward is the coaches are going to want to just play the guy that gives them the best chance to win. As of right now, I don't think there's any denying that that's just Carson wins. And look, I think there's a different world, Manny, where Carson, you know, where J.J. McCarthy had Christian Darrasaw and Ryan Kelly and Jordan Addison and had the perfect game plan and didn't have a kid midweek and everything and then just played really well against the Falcons. But we can't live in a hypothetical world. We have to live in the world that actually happened, which was that Carson Wentz played really, really good football for this team. 100%. And, you know, I think you've talked about this now, even after last night's game,

you and Dane talked about how it just the difference that we're seeing between McCarthy and Wentz is yesterday just looked like a real professional performance. You know, it wasn't a lot of huge gaudy numbers. He had 173 yards, 14 out of 20. Carson Wentz wasn't asked to do a lot. He wasn't asked to put the team on his shoulders and make all these crazy dynamic plays and throw for a bunch of yards. But he just went out and had a very, you know, business-like.

you know, adult, not trying to say, you know, not trying to say J.J. McCarthy is just this little kid, but he is, let's be honest, he's 22 years old. In NFL years, he's a kid. Yeah, very much so, Murph. And, you know, Carson Wentz is a guy that, okay, fine, he's, you know, he's the first quarterback to start for six different teams in six straight years. Okay. So maybe that says a little bit something about, you know, how his career is gone, but he has still been in this league for, this is 10th year in the NFL. This guy knows what he's doing out there. He's not, you know, he's not going to go to the Hall of Fame or anything, but he's got enough starts under his belt where he knows how to prepare for a week, prepare for an opponent, make all the necessary

throws in a game like this, and take advantage of a team that is just not very good, you know, defensively. And, and they were able to expose that. And it was just a very professional performance. And that's just something that we have not quite seen from J.J. McCarthy yet. And it doesn't mean that you wave the white flag on him and that it's over and that he's never going to figure

it out. It probably just means it's going to take some time, take a lot more time for J.J. McCarthy to kind of grow and develop into what I think everybody hopes that he can be. But right now, like you said,

Wentz gives him the best chance to win. Just because week in and week out, he's going to come out and give you a professional performance. It's not always going to be great. There's going to be some throws that he makes, you know, over the next couple of games that you might kind of scratch your head a little bit. But we know that for the most part, he's going to do what he needs to do because of the experience and the talent that he has. Folks, I know a lot of you out there either own your own business or you are in a management

position where you have to hire people and it can be such a headache. You have to sort through all sorts of resumes of people who aren't. qualified and you end up overlooking some of the best candidates. It's tough. But what is not tough is using ZipRecruiter for your hiring needs. ZipRecruiter finds amazing candidates for you and fast. And right now you could try it for free at ziprecruiter.com slash audio. It's just so easy that you have to try it. You can use their smart technology that finds great candidates for you. or you can use the invite to apply button that allows you to reach out to your favorite candidates. There's a lot of ways that you can make ZipRecruiter, your best recruiting tool.

Ditch the other hiring sites, let ZipRecruiter find what you're looking for, that needle in a haystack. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter, get a quality candidate within the first day. So try it for free at this exclusive web address, ZipRecruiter.com slash audio. Again, that is ziprecruiter.com slash audio. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. Score one more in the comments says team look more fluid with Wentz and I'm a JJ fan. I think no one, no one is asking you to bail on JJ McCarthy.

KOC did not come out and say today, actually, guys, we're trading him to the Birmingham stallions of the UFL. We are finished with J.J. McCarthy. It's over. Burn those jerseys. but there's just a lot of examples throughout NFL history, Merv, of quarterbacks needing time. And it's really, really hard.

It's just so hard with all the promise of the young quarterback, but also that I don't feel like any of us were misleading to the fans of the audience because all their decisions led to them believing that it would work out. And then in the first couple of games, it didn't, which again, also does not mean that it can't. And I want you, Murf, to take us through. the decision tree here for Kevin O'Connell because I think there there is one

where if it goes down X path, then you're back with McCarthy. If it goes down Y path, then it goes down, that it's back with Carson Wentz. And then there's another one that's a little more murky and is a little more muddy where you're not really sure whether you

should stick with Wentz or J.J. McCarthy. I want you to give me what's in your head about those different paths. Well, I think they're They're positioned well to win both games overseas, but I think a split is fine. And that is the luxury you have of winning yesterday and the manner in which they won yesterday, which I think instilled some confidence or at least reinforce the confidence I think people have in this team,

especially defensively. I mean, let's not forget the, you know, the Falcons kind of walked into U.S. Bank Stadium and ran at will. and, you know, yes, McCarthy was messy, and the offense didn't do any favors for the defense. The defense also has, and admittedly, wasn't up to snuff, wasn't up to their standard. They reestablished that yesterday. So, you know, if you're coming back into the buy at 4 and 1 or 3 and 2, and Wence is really not the story of the game, but all the playmakers are the stories of the games. and he's not getting in anybody's way,

it is going to be difficult to immediately walk away from Wentz and hand it all right back to McCarthy. McCarthy's health, his ankle, his mobility, we're going to hear about a lot of that over the next several weeks. I don't know if there's a spot to return him because you've got Philadelphia, Detroit, and Baltimore right out of the gate. So there really isn't an on-ramp for him either. So I'm going to be looking at not so much what Wentz does, but what Wentz avoids.

He was able to avoid trouble yesterday, trouble that found McCarthy or that McCarthy stumbled into. If Wentz continues that, the defense plays well. The playmakers make and elevate Wentz's game, the offensive line. You know, we got another injury on the line to deal with. that the return of Addison we got to see how that changes the dynamic of the offense we haven't had Jordan Addison to watch over the last three weeks there's a lot of little things and they're going to be subtle what's coming out of the locker room but this is the tension we've been talking about even last year before they had made the decision on Darnold which was are you going to be satisfied with McCarthy developing and learning and winning seven to eight games. If, you know, what does that mean? Is that satisfactory?

If it's not, and based on their offseason investment and the expectations for this team, it is not. There isn't going to be patience. So that tension between how do we best develop McCarthy and how do we win now, there's not always going to be wiggle room there. And McConnell is going to have to make that difficult decision. But he's got a lot to look at before he has to. to do that. So it's great to speculate and wonder. It's very intriguing, but I don't think we're going to know anything until they come back from Europe and we know where McCarthy's mobility

is. So Sam says team could have looked more fluid with JJ because of the return of Darissa. And I don't think that anyone disagrees. No one disagrees with that. I don't think anyone does. But also the guy who's making this decision and talked today knows that. He knows how important that Christian Derrissau is to the operation. I also do want to point out that one of Wentz's best drives of the entire game was with Blake Brandel playing left tackle. But when Blake Brandel has to block for 1.99 seconds, which is how quick the ball came out and clean pockets for Carson Wentz, he doesn't have to do as much.

And when the ball is coming out the slowest in the NFL outside of a scrambling quarterback for J.J. McCarthy last week, the Justin School has to be. to do a lot more. And some were quick pressures, some were quick sacks. Again, we realized that. And everyone knows that McCarthy probably got rattled by those quick pressures. And oftentimes when quarterbacks get rattled, they get sped up, which weirdly slows you down because you start getting off reads and then you can't find them. And then that's how you get put in a blender by a great defense. The Vikings defense has done it to many teams. How about Jake Browning? I'm sure he walked out of their feeling fantastic

about facing Brian Flores and having his brain scrambled by that. It's hard. It's hard for any inexperienced or young quarterback, especially when you don't feel safe over there, when you're not getting the type of run that you're getting. But it's only kind of a guess of what it might have looked like. And I think they would have had a better chance to win the game with Derisaw. There's a huge ripple effect. He's an unbelievable player.

They should pay him all the money based on the way he played. but it's also undeniable that Wence was on point with getting rid of the football. And even when he did take a sack from looking at the film, I thought, that's probably the sack that you should take. And he didn't fumble. And they punted and they got good punting. And they handled the, they played the way that a kind of old schooly type of football team plays. And it seems like that type of play is back.

But let's, Mani, let's talk about the KOC element of this. and I'm not sure how to pronounce this crazy driver says, I know it's not the topic, but it seems like KOC has a hard time with mobile quarterbacks. If you're a pocket passer, it works with his style of football. You know what I think it is? I wouldn't say mobile,

but I would say with experience, with the ability to handle a lot on your plate. So Josh Dobbs could not, but Nick Mullins could. And he didn't throw the ball well because he has no arm whatsoever, but he threw it to the right place a lot. It just may have wobbled to get there or may have flown over somebody or whatever it might have been. But he threw it to the right places because he understood where to go with the football. And Sam Darnold played a ton of football in his career and had the experience and had been through it and had seen these things before.

I think there is something to that, Manny, of what KOC asks of his quarterbacks. 100%. And I think that's why. We are seeing JJ, we saw J.J. McCarthy struggle for seven out of the first eight quarters of his NFL career, you know, as a starting quarterback is because that is a lot to put on the shoulders of a 22 year old. By the way, a 22 year old who was also not when we talked about this when J.J. McCarthy was drafted. And, you know, even going through this past off season when, you know, the indications were there that they were going to roll with J.J. McCarthy and move on from Sam Darnold is he was not all, he was also not asked to do a lot at the University of Michigan. He won when he was asked to make some plays, he was able to make them, but it wasn't a lot. There wasn't a whole lot on his shoulders to go out and just make a, Jay, J.J, go out and make a bunch of plays and just carry this offense on your shoulders. And this, you know, this scheme offensively with KOC relies on the quarterback to really be on his P's and Q's. All the eyes have to be dotted.

All the T's have to be crossed. And when you don't have a lot of experience of, you know, shouldering a lot of responsibility to read the defense, to make the right checks at the line of scrimmage, and to be able to deliver the football with anticipation and accuracy and timing, and get rid of the football when you're supposed to, when you don't have a lot of experience of having to do that, the moment you're asked to do it, it's going to be really, really hard. And J.J. McCarthy has experienced that now

in the first two games of his career. He was able to recover nicely at Soldier Field. But as we have kind of seen, that's a defense with the Chicago Bears that is not nearly as good as we maybe thought it was going to be. And then you fast forward a week later against the Atlanta Falcons. That's a team that's got pretty good pass rushers, some corners that can cover. They present a lot of different challenges for you.

And if you're not ready to really take on the responsibility that KOC requires, you're going to get eaten alive. And that's what happened with JJ last week. So here's the question, Murph, the most pressing question for Kevin O'Connell. I think that at this moment, he probably can't answer. But we could try, which is how. will they make J.J. McCarthy into their future franchise quarterback if he doesn't play a lot this year. How do you balance those two things of wanting him to get, as O'Connell said today,

10,000 hours of playing quarterback, but you're not playing quarterback because you're watching Carson Wentz and telling him what you see on the Microsoft surface on the sideline. Like, how does that, How's that work? I think it's delicate, obviously, but I think the circumstances are going to dictate that. And if McCarthy is tapped when he's healthy to get a start either against Philadelphia or Detroit or Baltimore, let's say, somewhere in that three-week period, how he performs, I think, you know, it's risky because if you put him out there and he doesn't really progress and it looks a lot like, the deer in the headlights of the seven of eight quarters that he played, you may have to bench him legitimately and what kind of damage will that do? I mean, at the end of the day here, we're not running a nursery, though.

I mean, you know, this is the NFL, and this is a roster that is built to win and built to win now, and general managers and coaches are paid to win and win now. Quasi is paid to draft well and win, so it doesn't say, a lot about your future franchise quarterback if he finds himself on the bench because of performance. But again, what is that performance? If it's a performance that allows the Vikings

and gives the Vikings a chance to win, I think it's fine. If it's a performance that gives them no chance to win and puts them in awful positions, field position-wise, turnover-wise, and just an inability to kind of flow offensively, if McCarthy can't manage a game, he's certainly not going to be able to win games.

And if that's on display, it's a painful, it's a painful revealing, as it were. I just feel like the play on the field, the stakes in the locker room, and the status of this offense is going to make that decision. And I think if McCarthy can't live with that, he's going to have some. soul searching to do as all NFL quarterbacks do, especially at a young age. So there's a way to thread that needle. I think if anybody is adept at threading a public needle, I think it would be Kevin O'Connell. He seems to know how to straddle that line of transparency and self-preservation. And today was a pretty good example of that. And I just feel like the circumstances on the ground will dictate more so than what we're thinking or feeling may be the case.

This is exactly how I feel, which is it will present itself. We don't know what circumstances will present themselves, but it will. Like, the answer is going to be there for us in the results. And the results might also be Carson Wentz gets banged up for a game and he has to come back. But it's hard to find an ideal team to bring him back. But also, you built this team to win. So if it's Philly or if it's the Chargers or if it whoever like you got to just throw him out there.

You got to beat somebody in the playoffs. Exactly. Exactly. So if you, you know, if you don't think that he can face those good teams, then, you know, he shouldn't be playing at all. I just feel like we will reach a moment because Carson Wentz is Carson Wentz. Like he's not Joe Montana here. So at some point we'll all be kind of looking at each other and go, I think it's time.

Do you think it's time? Yeah. I think it's time and they'll probably do it and he'll go back and he'll play. I don't think we have seen the last of J.J. McCarthy for this entire season. So let me just take everybody, everybody deep breath, everybody in the comments, me, you guys. Okay. Uh, they won 48 to 10. Oh, that's right.

I mean, that's right. They did 48 to 10. Let's talk about the rest of the damn team because they were really freaking good. you talk about let me just throw this out there because i know this won't be a big discussion point but you know it was pretty good yesterday dallas turner had five uh quarterback pressures yesterday played a pretty good role just a little dallas turner update but aside from the quarterback play manny what was the thing in yesterday's game that impressed you the most about that whoopin of the cincinnati bengals where did mannie go do you mute yourself manny oh i

I did. Sorry. I turned my fader down. Apologies. Well, I think Isaiah Rogers is kind of the low hanging fruit and the easy answer here. But I'm going to kind of stick a pin in that. And I'm going to go with just the something that we've kind of talked about as a kind of a side topic with this defense is just the depth that they have up front on the defensive line. You mentioned Levi Drake Rodriguez having a great game. Jalen Redmond was also very, very good. to fumble, the P. Ryan fumble, I think, was p. Ryan fumble, I think, was p. Ryan fumble by it, by him. That's, that's huge. For those two guys, especially, to be stepping up in, in the roles that they have right now and really providing some really good depth for the interior of the, of the defensive front. That's, that's just major, because, you know, Hardgrave, who we talked about, a little bit banged up after yesterday, and even Jonathan Allen, who's been really, really good, you know those guys are kind of on the other side of 30 and you kind of wonder how many snaps can they really endure over the course of a 17 game season and so to have you know LDR and jalen Redman both just

stepping up the way that they did and granted the Bengals just look like a miserable football team right now so that was part of it I think that really helped but to have those guys I think playing at a high level as kind of rotational defensive linemen, I think is really huge for, I think for the long term success for this defense this year. Yeah, we could say, you know, we could say the Bengals are bad. And it's probably true, but I mean, they just won the previous week. And, you know, they didn't play like a complete joke. In fact, all the people in Jacksonville were, they were, yeah, right. I mean, but in Jacksonville, they were, you know, ripping their team up and down for losing to that Cincinnati team. I totally agree with the interior of the D-line. We,

We can't let it go too far in the conversation for who was responsible before we say Jordan Mason. I just, what an absolute beast. And rewatching his tape, he is so good in that outside zone stuff. He just sees it really well. I'm going to throw another, like, deep in the weeds guy who had a great game. Will Fries was awesome in that game. Just had the leverage, was driving people back, seemed like a really good fit for what they want to do with Mason. And it's not often that you lose somebody to injury as important as Aaron Jones and you could run the football.

that so very very well done from him uh just want to stop before we get to murph and your answer real quick and remind you all that the purple inside of the show presented by fan duel and the fan duel question the day which i'll have you guys answer later is based on yesterday's results the vikings still third on fan duel to win the nfc north at plus 470 i want uh how confident you are that they can do it one to ten confidence that they can win the division uh and now back to you murph with your favorite performance of yesterday. Well, you guys kind of took it all, so I could, I'll leave it with, I'll go with two. I'll go with just the kicker in general.

Well, look, I know he's minor, but the fact that he could go out there in that, you know, despite O'Connell's efforts to get him a few more yards and despite the penalty and despite the clock, he still went out there and banged his second record setting field goal in three weeks. bodes well for the future, not only as a long-distance weapon, but as an end-of-the-game threat. But I guess I'm going to go with Brian Flores as the defensive coordinator. Did you limit it to players or just anybody on the roster? Anybody you want? I thought the way he responded, and it seems like whenever the Vikings are scuffling offensively or dealing with some quarterback issues or injuries or going

into a game where it's like, boy, I don't know if they're going to have enough points to win. And it always seems like Flores dials up enough pressure, enough. Look, Jake Browning didn't know what he was getting into, even though he did best Flores a couple years ago in Cincinnati. That was a different team. That was kind of a mess at the end of that season. I feel like the Falcons game in some strange way, I think humbled the Vikings. And I think it also gave them a wake-up call that there may be times we have to take over a game.

But they weren't even holding place against Atlanta well, and especially the run defense. I know a lot of the quotes coming out of locker room yesterday were, you know, that unit really took it personally how they were kind of shredded last week and made it a mission. And I think, you know, when Flores knows the defense needs to step up, he finds a way to put his guys in positions to make plays. I mean, the Rogers performance, historic as it was. is, you know, Brian Flores wanted him and targeted him in the offseason and lobbied for the Vikings to sign him, even though he had had a bit of a checkered pass. So it's just, to me, he finds a way when the team needs a defensive dominant defensive performance. He seems to find a way to deliver that. The opponents coming up and threw out the rest of this 12-game stretch after the buy,

that's where Flores is going to earn his money. But I thought that maybe was the most impressive thing to see yesterday. I also think that if you're a person that believes Harrison Smith belongs in the Hall of Fame, which I've written this and I believe that. There's only so many statistics that describe what a safety does, interceptions, which today don't happen anywhere near Paul Krauss, who I saw was at the game. Paul Krauss caught a lot of overthrows from not to take away.

I mean, that record is just unreachable. A lot of overthrows on deep balls that he was able to bring in that they don't get today with the safeties and all the yards after catch and everything else. But the thing that a safety can do in the modern game is just mind bleep the quarterback. And we saw Flores using him very much like we used to see with Troy Palomal.

I think that the comparison is apt. The only difference is that Paul Amalo played on teams that had Ben Rothesberger and went to Super Bowls and got a bunch of Chris. Collinsworth commentary on every play that he made and had those big moments in the playoffs. And Harrison Smith has not had as many opportunities to play in the playoffs, but you see so many similarities with those two. And just the play where he tips the ball is extremely subtle. But I went back and watched it on tape. And there is a guy that he's eyeing who's coming

on kind of an underneath route. But he realizes once Jake Browning starts to take off, that there's no way he could get the ball with that guy or see him. So then he just drifts back into the general, like he doesn't know what's behind him. He just drifts back into the general area. Like, I'm just going to kind of be here and see what you do. And it was the, you know, the littlest tip, but it ends up turning into the interception because he didn't just follow his guy. He sort of understood what was going to happen there.

Once Browning took off, the leadership, the defense was very different in terms of how complex it was than we saw in the first two weeks kind of reminded me last year. when they didn't have Eric Wilson and they had to play without cashman like they need somebody they need generals out there they need guys who are calling the shots and as good as the other players are Theo jackson's not that guy. Mattelis is so much better when he's in the box than if he's got to play the traditional safety spot. I thought that was absolutely huge. Now with Isaiah Rogers I was trying to think of today how do you put in context what Isaiah Rogers did? Here's what I came up with. I want your answers for this. I came up with if a baseball player hit four home runs and had a triple in five

at-bats and then also had three web gems. I don't think web gems are a thing anymore, but if you're a certain age, you understand web gems. That's how good it was. It would be like going five for five with four homers and a triple and then making three great plays in the field in like the fourth inning. That's what it was like. How would you contextual? two force fumbles, two touchdowns, and one of the absolute plays of the day, one-on-one versus T. Higgins, who has some Randy Moss tendencies to him, one of the best go up and get it guys in the NFL, and he knocks that ball away on a very good throw from Jake Brown. It kind of reminded me of just with the force turnovers and the pick six and the scoop and score,

it kind of remind and because he did all of that in in one half he kind of reminded me of changing sports here a little bit remember remember when clay thompson scored 37 points in a quarter yes for the warriors and he just he just went nuclear against the sacramento kings and i think it was the second or no it was the third quarter i think of that game and clay just gets 37 points and he's just draining threes all over the place and we know clay thompson was a great two-way player was a really good perimeter defender for a Golden State in his prime as well. That's kind of what it reminds me of. He just goes nuclear of just making all these great plays. And then he's also doing what makes him very talented as a cornerback in sticking, you know, having to defend against one of the best, one of the biggest and best wide receivers in the National Football League. It was just a remarkable performance.

And the other thing that kind of stood out to me, too, is, yeah, have the sort of the peanut punches that he had of knocking the ball out against Fant and then against Jamar Chase, really impressive. But I think what he did on those plays leading up to him being in position to make those plays, I think was really, really underrated, especially on the Chase play where he's defending another guy and Chase makes the catch. And he's so, you know, Isaiah Rogers is so quick and so fast that he chases down, no pun intended, Jamar Chase, and punches the ball out and obviously, you know, it forces that

turnover. I think the guy is just incredibly talented, super athletic, super fast, very instinctive. And this was an opportunity, I think, you know, coming here with the Vikings was a chance for him to have a much bigger role than what he had in Philadelphia last year on the Super Bowl champs. Contextualize, Murph. I love the baseball analogy because I think I'll come, I'll flip it a little bit. Imagine if pitchers in the National League could still hit and Max Scherzer during a perfect game

went three for four including a triple where he scored on a pass ball later. That's to me how I look at it because the playmaking ability and the fact that he actually accounted for 14 points

no Vikings defender has ever done that in a game. let alone a half. So what I, when I watched a lot of the replays, you know, the the punch out has been discussed a lot. What I, what I was impressed with because I hadn't seen him play live, or at least certainly in person. I was credentialed yesterday. The fact that he after Smith subtly tips the ball, he's able to corral it, kind of brace himself and not go to the turf and have the wherewithal, you know, a lot of guys might have been satisfied with just, you know, falling down, going for the celebration, and, hey, we got the momentum. He gets up and turns into a burner, which everybody knows he is. But, you know, he did elude one tackle at the 20,

which was a little tricky. So to be able to corral the ball, not fall, not get tackled, and then take that, what, four speed or whatever he had at the combine for 87 yards up the sideline. And those are the kind of plays that bring a building to life, bring a sideline to life. and I would I'm gathering you know the opening drive was nice but I bet you everybody in that building felt like the Vikings were going to win that game after that moment mainly because Jake Browning was quarterbacking the Bengals if it was Burrough you know would have been a little bit tighter but I thought you know the ability to combine offense and defense that demonstrably in that short a period of time I think if if this turns out to be a special seat. And there's going to always be those reflective games or those look back games, you know, was it the Indianapolis comeback? Was it, you know, the Jefferson Catchin Buffalo, those kinds of things. I think that kind of a performance, depending on where this club ends up, is going to be a reference point, especially for how well its defense plays. Yeah, I think so too. And you just saw

a lot of guys sort of either gain or get back confidence. I mean, gaining in Isaiah Rogers' perspective. I thought Dallas Turner, the same thing, getting Van Ginkle, even though it was back for a couple of plays. They were huge plays for Van Ginkle. But some of the other guys we mentioned, Levi Drake and Jalen Redmond, like, these guys are getting more and more confidence in what they're doing. And to have a total destruction where that side of the ball scores a bunch of points causes a bunch of fumbles, which is not that random these days. I think it's very clear the Vikings are well coached on how to cause those fumbles. and Josh Mattelis told us yesterday, like, you guys have no idea. We'll have great practices, and they'll be ripping us because we didn't do those fumble

drills enough, but it clearly worked out. And Rogers is in the same category to me as a Van Ginkle, where it's a guy that, I mean, I think if you like the PFF grades, the analytics, they kind of told the story on this guy. They told the story on Isaiah Rogers that basically whenever he got a chance, he was really good. And the same thing for Van Ginkle, that whenever he would rush the passer, he was very good. at it and was this multi-dimensional player, but kind of was buried a little bit in Miami and didn't get a whole lot of attention. This is where Brian Flores. And it all comes together. Sometimes we, because Brian Flores clearly wanted him, then it's like, well, you know, he gets all

the credit for it. And O'Connell says that, I mean, really, the entire team does because they had to go out and sign him. Rob Brzynski had to figure out the cap. And, you know, they, they, every, everybody, Kwaysey and everyone's involved in these signings. They've gotten very good at this. they've gotten very good at the pro side where there are a lot of people involved but this was somebody that Flores had his eye on for apparently a really long time because he had gone to UMass and he has the Boston connection and all that and so he had had him identified as someone he liked for a while I don't know how many times a US Bank Stadium or if I've ever seen someone run that fast and apparently he was not even going 100% because he knew he had it like

as soon as he cleared the first guy with that broke a tackle he's like oh, I'm just chilling, and he was still going over 20 miles an hour. It was a little bit like when you'd see Dionne Sanders or something. Like, it was that fast. Hey, real quick, because you're the PFF guy. You literally wrote the book. I read today that he at Rogers's 99.9.9 grade is the highest in the history of PFF. Yes.

Where is the 10th of a point? Where's the deduction? So it's not a deduction. It would be in what they call a zero play, which means that. What else can the man do? So, so as a zero, I know, I know what you're saying. Maybe, I think that maybe their system just doesn't have an extra spot because they never thought. Oh, it's a Y2K issue.

That would be my guess, my guess. But it's probably just in like a routine play that you get a zero and like you don't get, you know, whatever. But it's, yeah, it is the, I honestly truly think that they never built the system to go to 100 because they did not think it was possible. But like mad. Like a. Like a routine, a routine handoff where he kind of makes a regular tackle would be. they couldn't look the other way. That'd be a zero, but yeah, right, they couldn't give them a plus.

But the way that those grades are done is on a scale of zero to two or zero to minus two. So if you throw the Jordan Love interception against Cleveland, that's a minus two, if you throw, you know, the greatest pass down the sideline that's just beautifully placed or something, that would be like a plus two. And then they normalize it to make it look like Madden grades on a scale of one to 100 because it's easier for people to understand. because if we said, guys, Isaiah Rogers had a plus 17 for yesterday to be like, the hell does that mean, right?

So they, that's why they did that, I think, and it was the right decision. But 99.9. And I don't think you can actually play a better game ever. I was watching, I know this is for Manny. I was watching an 03 Monday night football game between the Browns and the Rams. I know. You need a life. I know.

And in the first half, Annius Williams had. like two picks and a fumble forced and John Madden's like, I've never seen a player take over a game like this except for Lawrence Taylor. That's what Isaiah Rogers did for this team yesterday. And you just, you just felt like this jolt of energy through everyone like, this is us. Not what we saw last week, even if they hadn't done all of that, even if they hadn't caused all the fumbles on a play to play basis. Cincinnati was not feeling very good about themselves. Well, what was funny about, And I know you guys were at the stadium, so you guys probably didn't get a glimpse

of the TV broadcast with Nance and Romo. But it was so funny because on the P-Rine fumble that Jalen Redman had forced, the play happens. The ball gets loose. The Vikings recovered. I think it was Theo Jackson or somebody had recovered the fumble. And all Jim Nance can say,

oh, the ball's been fumbled. Where's Rogers? Like there was just this assumption that because he had already made these plays, these three, forced these three turnovers earlier in the game that, well, the Bengals are turning the ball over again. It has to be Isaiah Rogers involved again. So that was pretty funny in the moment.

You know what? I got a theory now why the point the one 10th percent he didn't qualify for. Maybe they tied him to game ops. Do you remember when game ops after they showed him on the video board with the NFL record, huge ovation, right as Wentz is calling plays in the huddle. They literally had to shame and admonish the crowd to shut up. they were celebrating the history that Isaiah Rogers had just made. So maybe that's where the ding is.

That wasn't, it was not great timing because you don't want the entire crowd cheering during your quarterback trying to get the call in. That's usually saved for Los Angeles games where it's half the other team's crowd. So let's wrap up the conversation this evening, gentlemen, on two things. I want to know what you think of this week against the Steelers. It's going to be unique. It's going to be in Dublin. and just, you know, all of that.

It's always a circus with Rogers and everything else. But that Fanduil question of the day about winning the NFC North, which was their plus 470, Green Bay is minus 150. Looks to me like Baltimore is doing pretty well against the, or I'm sorry, the lions are doing well against Baltimore right now. How, I don't want to know how many wins you think. Here's what I want to know is how do you even get to a number? Like on Thursday, we'll make.

make manny pick the schedule again and we'll go through it and we'll try how do we even get to a number they're at plus 470 with the uncertainty with the schedule with the quarterback or maybe maybe it's not that hard for you guys like how how do you set the expectation now for this season is probably a better way to ask this manny it because we went into the season saying if j j j mccarthy is good they can compete for a super bowl and now j j jc mccarthy's not playing and someone who's playing who has been really good in his career at times and been really frustrating at times and hasn't been a starter and maybe he's Rich Gannon or maybe he's just whatever, you know, anybody else. So I don't know. Like, what do we do with that? Well, I think,

I think yesterday was a clear indicator. Now, not saying they're going to beat everybody that they should try and beat everybody 48 to 10. It'd be nice if they did do that, but that's just not realistic to expect that to happen every single week. But I think what yesterday showed was if this team is going to win a lot of games and have a successful season and get into the playoffs and maybe make some noise, I think what we saw yesterday is going to be kind of the blueprint where, you know, and I think that's going to be rather it's Carson Wentz or J.J. McCarthy. As long as JJ can kind of continue to grow and develop and get better, once he gets back under the field. But I think yesterday it was kind of the blueprint of running the football,

controlling the ball on offense. The quarterback makes enough plays. He doesn't have to carry the entire offense, but he does all of the basic things that a quarterback needs to do to manage and control and lead the offense. And then your defense is just playing like a bat out of hell and just forcing turnovers and pressuring the quarterback and being dynamic and making a lot of plays and then your kicking game, your special teams play remains as solid as it's been these first couple of weeks of the season. That's going to be the blueprint. And I think if they can kind of continue this, obviously I think if they do this against Pittsburgh and Cleveland over in Europe the next couple of weeks, I think they're going to win both games.

But even against a team like, you know, when the schedule gets tougher, when it's Philadelphia, when it's the charges, when you have to go to Ford Field, when Baltimore comes here, that's going to have to be kind of the blueprint for them to win these games. You're going to have to run the football and have success running the ball because, especially with Philadelphia and Detroit and Baltimore, those are three really high-powered offenses that can put a lot of points on the board. And if you can run the ball, control the clock, and your quarterback doesn't make a lot of mistakes,

you have a chance to win those games. And I think if you can have that kind of success against those teams, those are going to be the toughest of points you play this season, And then I think you've got a chance to, you know, still have the kind of season that I think a lot of people hope for. Murph? Yeah, I've had them kind of loosely pegged at 10 wins for quite a while, even when we went through the schedule. I had them starting two and one. I had them losing yesterday to Joe Burrow.

So you're right. Nothing is, nothing is as it seems. What I wrote about today, what Mani just said is exactly it. this is exactly the you're not going to win every game 4810 you're probably not going to get five turnovers a game you're very likely not going to have 14 defensive points in every game but if you are making life miserable for opposing offenses and your quarterback whether that's j jay mccarthy carson wence max brosner whoever comes around if there's a catastrophe if your quarterback avoids trouble because in the NFL trouble will always find

you and McCarthy knows that, then there is a path forward to the playoffs. I still don't see, I didn't see them even with McCarthy playing well, getting into that 11, 12, 13 win category where I think Detroit and Green Bay may ultimately reside. But I don't see any reason to move off of 10 wins and a wild card birth as well, but it has to be controlled, measured, and relatively mistake-free football from the quarterback position and premium play elsewhere. I think that what the National Football League brought to you by Commissioner Roger Goodell has taught us about the NFC specifically is you just don't really know which teams

in the NFC are going to be the teams that are there at the end of the day. Because on the AFC side, I mean, man, Josh Allen is doing it again. And, you know, even if Baltimore doesn't beat the Lions tonight as we're doing this show, they'll probably be there again. And even you could kind of bet Kansas City will get receivers back and figure some things out. They'll probably still be there. The NFC, though, I mean, that Rams Eagles game, that's a playoff game. Both those teams looked fallible.

Both those teams looked awesome. it took a fat guy getting a punt or a field goal block and running it back like I don't know man the NFC is a circus uh the 49ers have won three games to start the season with mac jones and then they just lost nick bosa for the entire year we don't know what they're going to be green bay looked flawless over the first two weeks and then lost to cleveland which is not i guess maybe the worst thing ever to have a bad offensive performance against that defense but uh they got pretty well, beat up in that game. And so they lost.

And the Lions had their bad loss. And as we're trying to sort through all this, I don't have any clear answers. Washington, how's Jaden Daniels going to be health-wise just even for the rest of the season? But they looked pretty darn amazing with Marcus Marriota. And they're the fact that they could take a team apart that way was impressive. We've seen, you know, Philly look really good. We've seen them look a little bit, you know, rock-y-a-tampas 3-0.

What do you make of that? And half their team is hurt. And Atlanta last week looks like the. 98 falcons and then this week shut out right they look like the joey harrington falcons so it's like i i think right now we just have no idea what's exactly happening which actually really benefits the minnesota Vikings because as i was making this and i'm sad that you weren't here for this comparison manny but as i was making this comparison to the early 2000s era of the nFC and how matt hasselback went to a super bowl and a lot of defense you know we saw rex grossman go to a super bowl

you look around at the stats that offenses are putting up. I mean, that's exactly right. Like you look around at the stats that offenses are putting up in the NFC and you go, what year is it? I mean, there are so many. I mean, truly a couple of years ago, we're talking about, oh, man, Rams and chiefs, it's like 50 to 50 and like, how are we ever going to go back in time?

We kind of went back in time. And you know who has one of the deepest defenses in the NFL, the Minnesota Vikings do. And so to me, even though last week, ICE probably said to you guys, I think I did, when you both picked 10 wins, I was like, I don't know, guys, 10, 10 might be hard to get to with this schedule, but now you look at the way it plays out

where we are in an ultimate, any given Sunday type of season, where there's no clear cut, holy bleep, this team is going to run away with everything. And nobody's playing, you know, for 14 and 15 wins, I think in the NFC because of the way the schedules are set up in the NFC North, I think it's just wide open. It's just wide open right now. And as I said to kind of close my opening rant earlier in the show, it's like, we are going to have to

take this one week at a time, my friends, because I don't think any of us knows where it's headed. But I do know it's headed on a plane to Dublin. First thoughts about what the Pittsburgh Steelers are, Manning, and you and I will get more into this on Thursday night. But what is your first impression of the Pittsburgh Steelers? I'm a little bit surprised at how bad their defenses kind of looked these first few games of the season.

Now they held the Patriots to 14 points yesterday. But, you know, that's also a team with a really young quarterback that's still kind of growing and developing. But the way, you know, the way Justin Fields was able to move the ball on them in week one. and obviously it was a great defensive play by Jalen Ramsey at the end to kind of seal that game. But, you know, the Jets put up 32 points against them. You know, Sam Darnold went in and went into Pittsburgh and dropped 31 on them. I think even with, you know, some of the really good defensive players that they have on that side of the ball,

I think it's a defense that the Vikings offense, if they play well, if they protect Carson Wentz, if Wentz gets rid of the football when he's supposed to, and if they're able to run the football with some effectiveness, I think they're going to have some success and come away with a win because I don't think this is a, this defense in Pittsburgh doesn't look as great as I thought it was going to be. And Aaron Rogers is still, doesn't look like a total disaster,

but he's still 41 years old and not nearly as good as he used to be. So I think this is a real opportunity for the Vikings to go in to Dublin and play really well and come away with a win. Real quick, Andrew in the comments last year. This is a longtime listener, Andrew, in, I don't know, maybe it was May, predicted that Sam Darnold would win like 13 or 14 games. And we all kind of were like, okay, crazy person. And then it happened.

But it points out, Sam Darnold has played some really darn good football for Seattle, tossed them into that same category. The Rams, the Packers, Seattle, who have made very strong first impressions along with the Eagles and the NFC. and Green Bay, but all of those teams, who's a little higher or lower, we're not really sure. And I can't say enough how good I feel about Sam Darnold playing well because that guy was nothing but a straight up pro for this team. And it was great to see him throw off all those narratives from previously in his career and

prove that he could play in the NFL because that guy's tough as heck. He was a pro. He was a good teammate. He did everything the right way. last year for the Vikings. So if he's succeeding in Seattle, the way he is early on, hey, good for him, man. Okay, Murph, Steelers, Aaron Rogers, A.A. Rom. Yeah, I'm a little more kind of picking up on what Mani said.

I'm surprised how vulnerable they've looked defensively. And I'm a little bit surprised that Rogers hasn't regressed where I thought he would. And I guess that just tells us everything we need to know about the New York Jets, perhaps. But he's been, if he's, efficiently productive. He hasn't been superstar productive, but he's been, he's going to be a formidable challenge. And I think Flores will look forward to that, as he always, it does when it's a veteran star quarterback, kind of that chess match again. He handled him. Again, the Vikings handled Rogers and the Jets pretty well in London last year. But I do think the Vikings are on the up. The Steelers are kind of a

middling team. I don't see Rogers pulling a rabbit out of the hat again, and I just see the Vikings doing just enough to, you know, come out with a victory, not necessarily a pleasant victory, but just a win. I think I worry a little bit more than falling asleep on the Browns. I don't think they will, but being over there for two weeks, and who knows what shape the Browns are going to be in, they can just be that kind of boogeyman under the bed, as yesterday showed against the Packers. So, um, but I, I feel like after watching yesterday, I feel like they're positioned to come back four and one or three and two and that, and that sets them up well coming out of the by for what we know the final 12 weeks are going to be. Well, we'll definitely spend a lot

more of the week talking about this big matchup for the Vikings because I do think that this international trip can swing the season one way or another. You go two and oh, you come out four and one. You feel like, okay, you're with everybody else that I named for contenders. You go one and one, okay, we'll see. You go 0 and 2. Uh-oh. But I don't know, maybe for some fans, it's not, oh, because that probably means McCarthy's back against the Eagles.

That's all we could do is hang on to the side and see where this ride takes us. Just real quick, somebody asked, I scrolled about whether it was a mistake to move on from Sam Darnold, which I think is a reasonable question to ask after this is played out. and we see more of the answers. I don't think we can really answer that right now. You guys both know that I wasn't afraid of the outcome where Darnold returned because it would give McCarthy more time to develop. At the same time, every person who will respond with,

you notice how you praised Will Fries, you notice how Javon Hargrave, you notice how Isaiah Rogers, Jordan Mason, all these guys, they added a lot of talent with that money that they saved. And I don't think they would have this team. if they had brought back Sam Darnold, and they would probably be having the same conversation about how do you get Darnold over the top? If you don't have this, that, or the other thing,

I think we agree they have one of the strongest rosters in the league. So that is what makes the NFL so tricky to win. Mani Hill, we'll see you on Thursday night, Brian Murphy. Looking good, sounding good. We put a lot of work into Murph's Man Cave here to make it look good and sound good for this roundtable. and I'm absolutely thrilled. You guys don't know how excited I am.

We got the mic, we got the lighting, we got the everything set up and took a little bit of effort today, but we got it done and I'm very happy about that. So thank you guys so much. And if you didn't answer and you're getting to the end of the show, the fan dual question of the day in the comments, give me that 1 to 10.

The Vikings are plus 470 to win the division. Green Bay minus 150. One to 10 on confidence that they can still win the division. is the fan dual question of the day so thank you guys thank you everybody for watching and uh let's all go watch some monday night football so appreciate it and we'll catch you later see you next week football football