Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - OTAs showed us that Brian Flores's defense is going to be really interesting

Episode Date: May 24, 2023

Matthew Coller and Will Ragatz of Sports Illustrated get together at TCO Performance Center to talk about what we've learned from OTAs, including that Brian Flores's defense is going to have a ton of interesting looks to it. Why this year is pivotal for so many players on the defensive side. Plus Matthew and Will discuss Justin Jefferson's absence from OTAs, whether Danielle Hunter and TJ Hockenson will sign extensions and more... Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Purple Insider is presented by Oakley. Express yourself, build a look that's made for you. When you wear Oakley, there really is more than meets the eye. Try it for yourself. Oakley is not only the best looking, but the best quality. So head on over to oakley.com for more information today. Welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar and Will Raggetts here of Sports Illustrated sitting outside today in a beautiful day at TCO Performance Center.

The only downside is that I forgot to bring my brand new Oakley sunglasses, of which, so I look a little less cool, but it is a great day out here. And, you know, we got OTAs to talk about, which is always phenomenal. Yeah, I mean, it's real, like, diehard football stuff. I mean, when you get into training camp, the season's approaching. You got a lot of stuff to talk about every day because they're doing a lot of team periods. Right now we're deep in the weeds.

OTAs, it's May. But it's exciting because we haven't really had real football stuff to talk about in a while. It's been the draft and projecting and all. And now we get to see these players out on the field. We saw some of them at rookie minicamp, but now it's the whole team with some notable absences that we can get into. But, yeah, it's just fun to see them out on the field and be here at TCO. Okay, so I actually have a takeaway of watching

OTA practice and seeing people running around in shorts, but my takeaway is that they're winning the Superbowl. No, that's not the takeaway, but the, the takeaway is that everything that we've said about Brian Flores is defense, people moving around, organized chaos, everybody's going to line up at all these different spots. There's a lot of times where OTAs and minicamps kind of create this imagination land where we go, but imagine if this player is used this way. Last year was the Delvin Cook in the slot. It was like, don't do this, don't do it. He's not going to be a slot receiver, I'm telling you. And it was like, but what if? Like, no, no, no.

There is no what if. But watching them practice, there was a lot going on on the defensive side. It could not have been more opposite from what we saw of Ed Donatell's defense for just our first tiny little snapshot at it. I think that has to be the biggest takeaway from the practice that we got to see on Tuesday, that just the movement on the defense and the the offensive players we're talking about we talked to some of them after after practice and they're they're using words like exotic and intense and the whole thing with

Brian Flores that you've been sold on is the aggressiveness and that's not going to show up obviously until the pads are on and they're playing games and things like that. And then maybe in training camp a little bit. But, I mean, it did even a little bit just in this OTA setting with the movement and they're showing some different blitz looks. And they're not giving away everything that they're going to be doing. It's still really early in installing. But, I mean, it was cool to see without without some key players without Jordan Hicks Harrison Smith a few other guys on defense you got the young guys at linebacker safety corner moving around

showing different blitz looks like Christian Derrissaw had a really telling quote about like it's it's cool for us as an offense to see these different looks because last year we didn't and then teams would run them in the games and we wouldn't really be prepared for them. So it's going to be great for the defense to kind of be versatile, be aggressive, use all these different chess pieces that they have in different ways, and it's going to be great for the offense to see that in practice every day and be prepared for anything that defenses are going to show them in games.

Aggressive and exotic, also how I would describe you. No, actually that's probably the complete opposite but uh i thought also as far as the biggest takeaway of what was going on in the field is just lewis scene just end sentence because i mean you have to worry about when you have a compound fracture of nerve damage and stuff like that that can really derail a career you might never be the same after an injury like that, but it seems like the nerve damage part did not happen with him, and he's able to make this recovery quickly.

And I don't know if there was hyperbole being brought into the game with Brian Flores talking about just where he fits in and how he looks, but it seemed like people were talking about him looking explosive, looking quick Matt Daniels talked about thinking that he looked even quicker than he did at the same time last year which seems impossible for someone who went through what he went through but I think it does bring about a discussion about where we think he could fit in or are we getting ahead of ourselves to see an OTA practice and then say

well of course he's going to be the big nickel or he's going to be whatever although Joe Juwan Williams is the big everything just the the largest corner I've ever seen but uh what was your kind of feeling about Louis seen being back out there and what we saw from him yeah I mean it's remarkable it's it's not really a new thing because he's just seemed to be so ahead of what you would expect from an injury like that for a while like i remember a month or two after he suffered a compound fracture of his leg which is a very serious injury he was like walking around in the locker room without any crutches and then he's posting videos in the off season of him working out and we saw him a couple weeks

ago at rookie minicamp looking good and now yeah he's out here in otas and if you didn't know that this guy got his leg like destroyed messed up very badly less than eight months ago you wouldn't be able to point it out and be like oh that guy's coming off injury just there's no signs of lingering effects, and I don't want to necessarily say I know everything about that because I don't know how exactly he's feeling, but he told us yesterday, I haven't been toned down at all. I feel good.

I'm going pretty full. So I think that's an exciting thing for the Vikings. I think there's still a lot we have to see. We haven't really seen him play defense in the NFL at all. Last year before the injury, he was just kind of on special teams, and we saw him a little bit in the preseason. But, yeah, I think it's exciting for a player with his skill set, his size, all the things that they talked about in the post-draft last year,

like his ability to diagnose things, his ability to kind of once he diagnoses them to close really hard and fly to the ball those are traits that are going to be huge for a Brian Flores defense I'm fully expecting him to be a starting safety in week one if he continues on on this projection I think when you're holding down that position and of course you mentioned Harrison Smith wasn't there but holding on to that position at the start of OTAs considering the recovery is to me a sign that that should be the expectation that he is a starter on day one and if he's not then we know well something is wrong there with the way that this defense is

clicking with him and I think logically speaking it should click with him as being kind of a downhill player although I did go back and look didn't find as much blitzing from him as I would have thought in college so I don't know if Brian Flores is going to kind of see that or how hard it is to figure out how to blitz like maybe that's not that difficult you just run at the quarterback I don't know I would think it takes more than that to figure out but it's really going to depend on the mental element now that we know that the uh physical part is okay for lewis scene and the expectation is that he should be starting in week one so that i mean that's yeah that kind of brought me to a point of watching flores's

defense and then we spoke with him today thinking about like how would you categorize your feelings because we're about feelings on the show you know that about the defense overall so would you categorize your feelings, because we're about feelings on the show, you know that, about the defense overall. So would you say skeptical, intrigued, dismissive, fascinated? What emotion would you use to describe how you feel about the defense as a whole? I think fascinated is a good one. I'm just excited and curious to see what it looks like and to see a defense that their identity and their goal is going to be to take it to the opposing offense and force the issue and kind of dictate things. It was just we heard all these things about, you know, post-snap movement and muddying the coverage. And they just they just sat back and they and they let things happen to them.

You want to as a defense, not not while being overaggressive and taking yourself out of spots and blowing coverages and all that. Be aggressive and take it to the offense. And so I'm I'm fascinated about that. I would say I'm cautiously optimistic about what it could be. There's just so much unknown because when you lose all the veterans that you lost, Dalvin Tomlinson, Zedarius Smith, Eric Hendricks, all these guys, there's a lot of unknowns. And I think you can talk yourself into, all right, if Louis Scene's healthy and producing, if Andrew Booth and Caleb Evans are out there, cornerback Brian Asamoah's just got some praise from Mike Saravo the new inside linebackers coach there's all these young pieces that could fit a versatile I mean I've even talked about Jay Ward and Makai Blackman the rookies that could fit

this versatile multiple aggressive defense but there's so much that we just have to see to actually you know believe and have evidence that it just have to see to actually, you know, believe and have evidence that it's going to happen and that those players are going to be successful. Don't you love that there's an inside linebackers coach? There's only two inside linebackers. Like, these guys have their own coach. Yeah. Just the two of them. I mean, do they? Well, there's more than two on the roster. I understand that. There's two starters. There's only two guys that play. Yeah. And so this guy only has to really coach those two guys, which were very close to every player having their own specific position coach.

I mean, that's kind of true for a lot of positions. Quarterbacks. There's only, like, one quarterback that plays. It's very complicated. There's only two running backs that play. Yeah. There's only two outside linebackers that play. But it's not just linebacker.

It's inside linebacker specifically. And that's something they changed last year with the three four because like it would be defensive like andre patterson was defensive line so that's right tackles and ends now it's you got your defensive line coach your outside linebackers which are your edge yards and then your inside line so it makes a little more sense in that context but well and you're when you're requesting interviews you got it you better get it right because it's like if you can't ask for chris rumpf to talk about to neil hunter because they like, whoops, I picked the wrong two guys that this guy coaches. That's anyway, neither here nor there. But fascinated is is an interesting word for it because, oh, you know, me, you know, old me on the show here can be a little bit skeptical of things or critical at times, I would say.

I think it's very fair to be skeptical of a defense with the roster being largely unproven and the numbers last year being what they were. And that's why when you said optimistic, I would not describe myself there. But just more very interested to see how this plays out. Because the way that this plays out with a lot of these guys will really dictate what this roster looks like for years to come because so many of them are young. When you look around, you could go,

these will be the guys of the next five years, or these guys will not be here. And both of those possibilities are very real. I mean, if you told me that Caleb Evans became a five- to seven-year Viking because everything came together with him and he didn't have any more concussions and everything was good to go, I would say, like, okay, I buy that. I mean, he seems to be very skilled, fits man coverage, whatever. Or if you told me that he's not on the team next year, I'd be like, okay, that makes sense.

I mean, that was Cam Dantzler last year where in the off season we talked about cam dantzler as if he was like the next great man corner or whatever he was going to take this big step it was all zimmer's fault which you know nothing was really uh but uh and then he's gone he's not even on the team and i think that that outcome exists for so many i mean okay booth junior because he's a second round pick pick, will be on the team. But Marcus Davenport, even half of the defensive line, there's just so many players that we have no idea what the long-term outlook is going to be. And I think by the end of training camp, we're going to have some sense of that.

But still, it's really going to play out through the whole season. It's a good point. I hadn't really thought of it like that, but you're absolutely right. I mean, on offense, you have Justin Jefferson, who, unless something goes very wrong, should be here for a long time. TJ Hawkinson, both of your tackles, like you have these pieces that are young and in their prime. And like, these are going to be, we're assuming Kevin O'Connell's going to be around for a while. these are going to be staples of the Kevin O'Connell offense quarterback running back those are a little different but you have those defensively is there a single guy that you can

say confidently will be starting on this defense in three years I mean I think Louis seen as the former first round pick has the best chance but that's a guy that we haven't seen anything from like I've said so yeah I mean maybe Brian Asamoah but again we haven't seen anything from, like I've said. So, yeah, I mean, maybe Brian Asamoah, but again, we haven't seen anything from him. Booth and Evans have the injuries. Hunter, they got to figure that out. He's got his whole contract situation. Davenport's on a one-year deal. Like, it's tough to know.

So that is going to be really interesting about this season is a lot of evaluation, figuring out who the building blocks are, guys who can stay healthy, guys who fit this defense. And not just this defense, but, I mean, any defense you're going to run because Brian Flores might not be here in a few years. So that, to me, is going to be a really interesting subplot. All offseason, OTAs, training camp, kind of identifying who your guys are on defense, who your building blocks are, and then moving forward with them. So let's talk about the guys who are not here.

I talked about Justin Jefferson quite a bit on yesterday's show. Just because people want him traded already for not showing up to an OTA, it does happen. I'm impressed. I mean, that is a hot take that I did not see coming that is all-time off-season brain right there he might be like I'm thinking about moving like he might be moving I don't know like who knows why he's just a superstar who maybe wants a contract extension and he's got a lot of things to do I I don't. Okay, but that's the question. Do you think, and this is pure absurd speculation because we have heard

nothing from him, but he also did not tweet, oh, guys, don't worry, I'm not there. It's not about my extension, which you could easily do if you wanted the world to know that it wasn't about your extension. That's not something. Well, I mean, that's something you do as a NFL superstar. Well, I mean, that's something you could do to remove speculation. What do you mean?

Lamar Jackson tweeted his way all the way through his contract. This is the year 2023. You are a youth still, technically. I mean, that's what people do these days. If they want you to know, they will let you know with their social media. He hasn't done anything like that. But I guess how seriously are you taking his absence I again I don't think I'm taking it very seriously right now I mean I think Jefferson's just kind of in a a unique position where I mean he's the face of the

franchise but he's also just this mega superstar like he's he's off doing hanging out with world famous soccer players in Europe and he's doing all these different things and he's um huge on Instagram and like I don't not that those things really matter but I just I guess it didn't shock me that he's not here when I don't know and I don't know I don't I don't want to start to paint him as this wide receiver diva. I'm I'm I'm too good for OTAs. But I don't know. We don't we don't know what he's up to. We don't know why he's not here. I think naturally you go to the contract situation because we know there have been reports that there have been talks about a potential extension that hasn't happened. I I would say I don't think it's something to worry about yet. Try not to overreact or call for Jefferson to be traded

or burn your 18 jerseys or anything like that. Let's wait until a mandatory minicamp in June. Maybe he shows up before then. But if there's no extension and mandatory minicamp in June, I mean, he has to be here or you start to get fined. So let's try to be patient, everybody. I agree with that uh when i was doing the live show i was very surprised that some of the reactions and i think i probably talked about it similarly to you like okay everybody whoa harrison smith wasn't there either i don't think you need to put him in a rocket ship and

shoot him to the sun for not showing up to these OTAs. Jefferson has traditionally always shown up for everything. So it is a little bit like, oh, what's going on there. But then I realized why there would be some freak out. Minnesota is why that Minnesota sports fans have to prepare themselves for the worst. And I think that a lot of people are already starting to brace for the idea that he does not sign an extension. And then that conversation is had over and over and over and over until he's got an extension about what is going on.

And so the clock is ticking here. And normally we don't see a lot of extensions happen in May or June. It's usually when we get into training camp. But every moment that he goes without an extension, all Minnesota sports fans can just rip off the players who had like Moss left and Garnett left and Ortiz and Diggs and just like all these players, they left and they hurt us and broke our hearts. And look at this man and how good he is. Is he going to do that as well? Yeah, I understand the overreaction.

I get it. I'm one of them. I've lived here my entire life. I understand it, and I don't want to come across as the guy who's being dismissive and saying, hey, your fears aren't justified. You have nothing to worry about. I can't sit here and say there is a 100% chance that Justin Jefferson will be extended this offseason or next

and will spend the next eight years in Minnesota breaking every record and becoming the Hall of Famer and la-di-da and everything's all great. I can't say that for sure. I think that Justin Jefferson really likes Kevin O'Connell. I think he really likes Keenan McCardell. I think he likes being here. He's produced huge numbers here um but if you want to look at it the other way if you're justin jefferson i saw you you wrote about this topic like how is he going to think about things and in his long-term future here i mean he doesn't know who the quarterback's going to be after this year and i think that's the key thing he's had great great individual success with kurt cousins he likes kurt cousins They're very different, different stages of life and personality and all that,

but they get along really well. They have a great working relationship and all that, and it's led to great things for both of them. It just hasn't led to a playoff win or more than one playoff appearance, and I think they set a really good foundation with O'Connell, but it's decision time next off season for the Vikings as to who their quarterback is going to be in 2024. If you're Jefferson and that's like, all right, maybe this is going to be some rookie they bring in. How does he feel about that?

Is he starting to talk to other superstars around the league and think about, Hey, like what else could be out there? I don't know. I cannot say that. I have not spoken to him about this. I don't think anybody really has. Like, so I understand the fears, and I get it. I just would say it's, I mean, hey, there's nothing you can do about it. So try to be patient and just see how this plays out.

I do think there's dominoes here with the Vikings offseason where I think the first thing that's probably going to fall is the Dalvin Cook situation. And maybe they were waiting until June 1 for cap reasons. That happens. I'm still assuming that that's a trade or a release that creates cap space. Then maybe you have some more resources to start coming to Jefferson's camp and Daniel Hunter's camp and TJ Hockinson's camp and really intensifying some extension talk. So we'll see. Folks, our new sponsor Oakley, maybe you've noticed it has taken our show to the next level.

Oakley express yourself and build a look that is made for you. And guess what? That's exactly what I did. Just got a new pair of matte black prism sapphire polar sunglasses from Oakley. And I got to say they are a game changer. I'll be wearing them golfing, playing basketball, training camp. It is clear now that I have not been doing anywhere enough for my sunglasses game until now. Oakley is changing the game and it's time for you to discover a whole new world of

possibilities. They are suited for everyday wear with frames and lenses, allowing for an extension of yourself, an expression of personality more than meets the eye. So make a sunglasses upgrade today at oakley.com. Personally, I am loving my new pair of Oakley's. They even offer prism lens technology. What the heck is that? It is a proprietary technology to Oakley and available for everyday settings as well. If you want to know more, and I know you do, head over to oakley.com and do your own research there. And while you're at it, get yourself a pair of everyday glasses as well that will change your look for the better. When you wear Oakley, there is more than meets the eye.

Try it for yourself. I have worn a lot of sunglasses in my life, and I can assure you that Oakley is not only the best looking, but the best quality out there. Go to oakley.com for more information today. I would say that anyone who's concerned about it is not at all being ridiculous based on past history and the fact that he doesn't have an extension yet. It's just not time yet.

It's like when the Twins are up 4-2 and they call in the first reliever. Before he's thrown a pitch, there's no reason yet to freak out. Now, as soon as he walks the first batter, gives up a bomb, okay, then gets concerned. That's like if there's no extension by august 15th yeah then i would say start to get nervous but if you're justin jefferson you don't have to do this now and that is a very important piece of this you don't have to sign an extension now like t.j hackinson you kind of do yeah if you're signing here you got to do it soon a hunter

for sure you got to do it now but with je for sure. You've got to do it now. But with Jefferson, you can wait another year, and you can see where this whole thing is going before you decide to sign because there's still fifth-year option and everything else. The only question is when it's someone of that power and of that talent, then comes in the would he demand a trade. Still very hard to do with no leverage, but if you start making enough noise in the nfl um eventually someone you know comes in with three first round picks and

then you have to do it or whatever so i i don't know it's it is a very complicated situation that i think that we don't really have any handle of where it stands right now other than to know that the vikings absolutely want to sign him to the extension yeah and he's not here for OTAs and that's like end of our information presently now uh Cook and Hunter I I don't have much else to say about Cook not being here I think we know where that's going uh they're having Alexander Madison speak with us they're putting him on the Twitter they're like yeah everything is pointing toward Alexander Madison season Hunter though, not being here, no extension. That one also makes me think the more days that go by the less likely that becomes of him signing here. And in a way I would not blame him because he's

just been screwed many times by this team with his contract his original contract was bad the way that it was handled the first time was unfortunate because of the injury timing last year they put a decent amount of cash in his pocket but at the same time they didn't extend it and so you could feel if you're him a little disrespected because of like what you guys thought i was so injured that you wouldn't sign me comes back has a great year and he's probably putting the dollar figure very very high where's your percentage on Daniil Hunter is a Viking in 2025 that's a good question I still I would say it's like 60 percent oh really yeah I mean I think it's been a weird situation ever since he signed prior to the 2018 season. He signed a five year, I believe, 72 million deal, which for a guy who had just started for the first time and like had shown some flashes but hadn't really broken out yet.

That's a good deal. It's a good long term security for a former third round pick. That's that's life good deal. It's a good long-term security for a former third-round pick. That's life-changing money and all that. And then he goes out in 2018, 14.5 sacks, Pro Bowl, does it again the next year, one of the best edge rushers in the league, youngest player to ever reach 50 career sacks. And all of a sudden he's thinking, all right, well, maybe I should have bet on myself a little bit more or something along those lines.

Because now his $14 million average annual value is just well below where those top five edge rusher types are getting paid. And so it's weird because the Vikings made a smart move to bet on him and to sign him to that. You can't really blame him for signing that at the time, I don't think. And then ever since then, it's just been drama because of that. And it's still, I believe 2023 is the last year of that original five-year extension.

So he's been upset and he's held out and they've moved money around and restructured things and brought money to the front. The two injuries, missing one and a half full seasons, really complicated things as well in there. And now he's only set to make like five and a half million this year because he got so much pushed up last year so it's it's a strange situation where i don't think either party has acted out of like malicious intent it's just

everybody's looking out for their best interest and trying to make things work and you know daniel hunter wants to be paid like the dominant player that he is when he's healthy i mean last year he was in a brand new offense where he's standing up for the first time in his life on the edge and he started a little slow and he finished with 10 sacks and was like eighth in the league in pressures like the guy is still in his prime he turns 29 this year i believe in october still has a few years left, I believe, of his prime with a guy who's that athletic. So I don't know. To me, he has some leverage now because of the Zedarius Smith trade. He can be like, hey, you guys kind of need me.

You want to roll with Marcus Davenport and Patrick Jones? Like, be my guest. I don't think the Vikings want to do that. So I think they're going to try to make something work. I think his age, you can still, you can give him a four year extension or whatever, and still, still feel okay about that. Um, but that would be a big commitment cause he's going to ask for big time edge rusher money. So I don't know. I, I still think that something probably gets worked out there, but it's not something i'm super duper confident in okay follow-up questions uh number one if they trade him what is the expected return well if you trade him now

it's you always the first thing you have to look at with nfl trades is what's the contract and it's very affordable this year but it's a one-year rental, so you're not – I don't think a team is giving up. They're extending it. Whoever he's traded to would have to extend it. If you extend him, and that's part of it, then sure. That would have to be part of it. Yeah, I think you can still get a first-round pick for him.

I'm not sure. Maybe you're talking more like what TJ Hawkinson was moved for, which is a second and a third and a late rounder going back. I don't know. I just, if you're the Vikings, I guess maybe your timeline is starting to shift younger and younger, but he's still young enough. He's not Eric Hendricks or Adam Thielen.

He can be in a three-, four-year time horizon still and be a really impactful part of that. You're just – edge rusher is so important that if you trade away Zedaria Smith and then you trade away Daniel Hunter and you have Marcus Davenport on a one-year deal, a guy who's been consistent with pressures but his sack numbers have really fluctuated, and then you're like, Patrick Jones, third-year breakout, undrafted rookie Andre Carter.

I don't think that's something you want to gamble on. I think you want to try to find a way to make this happen with him. Well, how much would you pay him then? Just go average annual value. Actually, no, work out the entire contract with bonuses right here on the show right now. Play Rob Brzezinski. But, no, I mean how much per year aav yeah would you uh because the top edge rushers the tj watts and miles garrett's and those guys are at like 25 now aren't they i mean even more north of that even pushing 30 yeah i think

if i'm the vikings you you point to the injury history you point You point to you're about to be 29. You're not 26 anymore. But then he could be like, well, then trade me. Well, yeah. No, I'm saying I think I would still be cool giving him 20 or in low 20s, but that might be disrespectful to him. I don't know. This is why I'm not in the front office trying to work these things out.

It's tough. That's why it's not resolved yet. That's why it's not resolved yet. There's a lot that both sides have to consider here i think the hockinson one is probably the most simple straight up like we're getting to that we'll get to that it makes sense for them to extend him with how well he complimented jefferson and and fit into this offense and you give them 14 or or $15 million a year as one of the top tight ends, I think that works for everybody. But there's reasons why none of these have been done yet. And that's why we're sitting here talking about all three or four

of these guys. Well, Hunter sort of reminds me of Kirk in a way, where I think they do like Kirk, but I don't think they like him at $40 million a year for the next three years. I think they do like Hunter, but they don't like him at 27 mil a year for the next four years. Right. And I think that Kirk has a right to ask for the same money or better than Daniel Jones. And I think that Daniel Hunter production wise has a right to ask for the same money as some of the highest paid guys at the DN position or outside linebacker, depending on which position coach you want to go through. But at the same time, it is a young defense and that would be tying up a lot of money to one person that I think that the flexibility cap wise,

they're not going to have a ton of it next year because of the kirk dead cap situation if he leaves and all that but if you're looking to create as much of that as you possibly can like think about this situation if you were to get a second and a fourth from a team for daniel hunter and you sign leonard floyd he hasn't signed yet right so he's still out there he's out there so he can still pressure the quarterback in a short-term situation he's like 31 or 32 so he's still out there or melvin ingram you get some guy who's going to give you like 600 snaps something like that you don't lose at least it going off the side of a building when it comes to production for this year and then you're hoping that davenport has it all come together. But then next year, you can spend the money that you would have been spending on Hunter

to sign some other edge rusher if you have to. Or you're drafting an edge rusher in the second round with the pick that came from him. So the extreme short term is, this is awful. I mean, because you'd much rather have Daniil Hunter. But in the even one year down the road long term, you're talking about a lot of extra cap space that you would not have. And when someone's in Daniil's situation, you can only fiddle so much with that cap. It's not like spreading it out is much harder than someone on their rookie deal. So he's going to have a super high cap hit almost no matter what you do

if you're paying him 25 million dollars per year I think that's the case to move him okay I think you you've talked me into it a little more being a little more open to it than I maybe previously was I guess if you're Daniel Hunter you have to think like all right if if the Vikings aren't going to give me 25 27 million a year is there a team out there that will and there are are teams with healthier cap situations than the Vikings that might be able to afford that, but they might also look at his injury history. There's no team out there that knows him and what he can do

as well as the Vikings do. So I don't know. That would be part of it to me. But, yeah, okay, you've talked me into that being a survivable possibility a little bit more as the team continues to kind of refresh and get younger. I just think when Daniel Hunter is healthy, the impact that he has, I don't know. To me, if you can work out something where you're giving him $23 million to $25 million over like three years, I think you could talk me into that

and figuring out the cap around it, especially if you're gonna move on from kirk and and and figure things out rob brzezinski can can figure things out like but but you're right it's there's a lot going cook's gonna be gone that's we're pretty much in agreement on that but if you're talking about jefferson big money extension hawkinson how does hunter fit into that derisaw is coming up derisaw is coming up for sure you're already paying brian o'neill a good amount of money and you're you're gonna have the dead cap for kirk next it's all the the salary cap stuff is always just kind of a fascinating puzzle here that's the thing is that i think one of the biggest issues is that rob brzezinski

is not going to have. He's the Vikings cap guy, if people don't know that. And much more now than just the cap guy. So give the man his credit. One of the more influential people in the front office. But that's his area of expertise. There's only so much that he can do with somebody who is asking for $27 million a year. That's not out there, that number. I just

assume he's looking for money that puts him up among the elite edge rushers because that's what his production is. You can't make that cap hit be $15 or $12 million. It's going to be in the 20s. It's going to be pretty high. So timing that all out is pretty challenging, I think, for them. And again, that's why it hasn't happened yet more likely than not this ownership does like to make sure they pay their guys but we've always pinned it on Kirk and rightfully so because it's always the biggest cap hit for Kirk but they have also always had this small group of players that have crazy high cap numbers and and they've had to just patch up a lot of other places and I wonder if

there's a part of Kweisi Adafo-Menta that doesn't want to do that anymore like we can't have six players who make all the money and then everybody else just has to kind of be the Bashad Breland signing or the Sheldon Richardson signing that's just patching over these problems um how about with hawkinson because he was asked yesterday about his contract situation and uh he said the thing everyone says like oh you know i want to be here and i i'd love to hear the first guy be like no i'm gonna shop around uh we'll see we'll see but i don't really like it here you know what i'm gonna go visit some other teams i'm gonna talk to my guys around the league. And, you know, we'll see.

But I actually do think that Hawkinson is a very good fit for Minnesota. He's like a Midwest guy. I can believe that the numbers he put up in those last ten games in the playoff game, I can believe him when he says that he wants to be here and that it makes sense for his career to be here. Okay, but here's the one issue is that's another expensive guy. And tight ends are pretty cheap in comparison to wide receivers when you talk about the elite guys.

But this is a top five tight end, which means top five tight end money. Do you think it is a fundamentally good idea to sign him to a five year 15 to 20 million dollar extension yeah i i think it i think it can work because i think if you look at him as like almost your pseudo wide receiver two then that maybe becomes a little bit and he's not a wide receiver he's a tight end but the numbers that he was able to put up and what he can do athletically he's not like Kyle Rudolph like he he is more athletic than Pete Kyle Rudolph ever was in terms of downfield speed the ability to stretch the seam I mean Kyle Rudolph was an unbelievable red zone threat and big body, great hands and all that.

But Hawkinson has a little more of the mobility to him and the twitchiness that does not make him prime Adam Thielen as a wide receiver, but it makes him somebody that you can really heavily utilize in your passing game. And then he's also, from what we saw last year, good enough as a blocker to be kind of a quality every down player. So I think you can do that. I think his age fits in with the timeline. I think he complements Jefferson really well. I think the fact that you just drafted Jordan Addison and are going to have that guy on a rookie contract for the next four to five years helps that whole kind of situation in the passing game come together. They're not gonna like pay

kj osborne's not gonna need a lot of money if you want to bring him back or if you want to replace him with jaylen naylor or whatever it might be down the road um so i i think it can work i i was just looking at this the other day the top tight end salary in the league is like darren waller at 17 million you got kelsey and andrews and goddard and all those guys are at 14 to 15 so is hockinson going to be like i i need to be the oh we got some mosquitoes laughing we got some mosquito going on sorry if that's uh no no this is this is part of the uh the outdoor podcast minnesota experience yeah they are back by the way yeah they're coming back oh man but i. So I don't know what Hawkinson is going to demand or need to make that happen.

I think if you can do it at 15 for four years or whatever, I think that can make a lot of sense with this offense. But the look you're giving me tells me you disagree. If I'm Mr. Hawk, here's what I'm thinking, or if I'm his agent, because he's thinking about football. I'm thinking this guy was on a pace for like 105 catches or something last year. He played 11 games, and he caught 70 passes or something. I mean, playoffs included.

Yeah. That's a lot. I mean, those two games against the Giants alone he had 10 for 10 for 129 yards yeah it was the playoff game so even though you have all these other receivers O'Connell's going to throw the ball I think that there will be a split in uh receptions between Addison and Osborne and Jefferson's going to get his but a lot of football is going to go on, you know, I, do I have to say fourth and eight? I'm sorry. If I just have to say a lot of balls on fourth and eight getting checked down

to TJ Hawkins, that's just, it's just unnecessary, but I can't not. No, he's going to get the ball a lot. Like he became that sort of security blanket that Kyle Rudolph never was for Kirk cousins. He just seemed to connect really well with Hawkinson. that sort of security blanket that Kyle Rudolph never was for Kirk Cousins. He just seemed to connect really well with Hawkinson. So if you're projecting, if you're his agent and you're thinking, this dude could catch like 95 passes, what am I really worth on the market if I catch 95 passes?

It ain't 15. It's 20, right? Highest paid tight end in the NFL, right? If you flip it around from what I just said to justify for the Vikings of him being like a wide receiver, his camp can turn that around and be like, all right, if I'm going to be the number two target in this passing game, yeah, I should be making $18 million at least. Not only that, but the thing that I talked with Hawkinson yesterday about, and he was very interesting in talking about, was moving around.

Yeah. Being the move tight end. And I looked at it with the Vikings,ings 50 of his snaps were not in line so he was playing outside or i'm getting i'm getting all the bugs right now i thought it was the middle of the day and we would be fine out here um but uh he you know he's talking about moving around to different positions i think they'll play more 12 personnel. So you got a couple of tight ends on the field with Josh Oliver and he's just going to be, oh man, come on. I think he's just going to be such a major part of what they're doing in the passing

game and being all over the field that he's going to catch a lot of balls and he's going to have a chance to be the highest paid tight end in the league and and from that perspective do you bet on yourself like he hasn't had major injuries little nicks and cuts here or there i mean it's risky to do because they they will put a lot of money in front of you and say would you like all this money right now but there's also if you make that bet you could get a lot and I also wondered if the Josh Oliver acquisition was not just about improving the running game but also hedging a tiny bit for someone who does have receiving ability and if TJ Hawkinson does not want to sign that contract

then they've got somebody else that might be a long-term option for them yeah no it's it's another one i mean all these situations are are really fascinating i mean not to overuse that word but the you could see all of them going going both ways i mean i think the jefferson one is like he's just on a different level of oh yeah his his stardom and his value to this team and his value to the franchise as the face of the franchise is different. So I think that's got to be, from the Vikings, just absolute priority number one is Jefferson, and then you've got decisions to make on Hawkinson and on Hunter and what your plans are, how much money it would require to keep them around,

how that fits into your picture and your long-term situation. But, yeah, you're right. I think Hawkinson can make a case that, and his camp can make a case that, he is the second most important pass catcher on this offense, pretty clearly. Jordan Addison's unproven. K.J. Osborne is more of a secondary weapon um so that should be yeah that should be the highest paid tight end in football and what should that be here or or could that be elsewhere could he test the market i that's going to be another one

to watch i i think the vikings also like you always have a little bit of leverage in that like with with jeff, for example. He's under contract for one more year on the rookie contract, fifth-year option. Then you could, like, franchise tag him. That would be expensive. But you could theoretically – that's three more years of control right there. Correct. Hawkinson's got his fifth-year option this year.

It's like $9.4 million. Then you could franchise tag him for, I don't know, what would it be, $13 13 or 14 as a tight end or something like that the year after like so these things don't have to happen now um which is why I think people everyone needs to be patient uh or try to be because it's just going to be talks throughout the summer and and leverage on both ways and I mean we saw like Brian O'Neill and Dalvin Cook are two that come to my mind that happened like I want to say in, like, late August, early September, like right before the season started. So that Dalvin Cook one didn't age very well from Rick Spielman.

But the Brian O'Neill one has. Who would have ever seen it coming that a running back contract would not age well? So last thing for you, if none of it gets done and they start the season, so there's no Hawkinson, no Jefferson. Okay. The Daniel Hunter thing is reached ahead. It has to, something has to happen there, but let's just say that I don't know. I, there's no resolution that has him hitting the field week one. I don't think, but let's say that one gets resolved,

but everything else is kind of left up in the air. I think it becomes very hard to say, how do you feel about this team's overall direction because it is unsolved with Kirk Cousins it's sort of unsolved with key offensive players for the future and on the defense there's so much up in the air that we talked about at the beginning of the show that I guess I will feel like very unsettled about the future of where this entire thing is going. I think that they did resolve a lot of stuff and moving on from Adam Thiel and moving on from Eric Hendricks,

like clearing out some of the old and bringing in some of the new, but I still feel like it'll be kind of teetering in this very weird place of not knowing, are you ready to win? Are you not ready to win like where does this thing stand for the cap future I think it'll all kind of be confusing unless some of these things are locked into place by the time they hit the field I agree I think unsettled is a good word it's a franchise that as everyone knows has been in the middle in lim, in purgatory, if you will, for a while now.

And that starts, obviously, with Kirk Cousins and what you can do as a team with him as your quarterback and with the amount that you're paying him. And then it extends to all these other pieces around. And we've had this conversation for off-seasons upon off-seasons now, like, where are you? And they use the term competitive rebuild, and that's just a fancy way of describing the situation of being in the middle.

Like, we're trying to win, and, hey, they won 13 games last year, but they weren't very good. And so are you going to try to win again? And some of the – like, you bring in Byron Murphy and Marcus Davenport, and those are moves to help you now. They're also guys who are like 25, 26 years old, so they kind of fill both worlds. Are you going to go all in on keeping Daniil Hunter and TJ Hawkinson

and Justin Jefferson and all these things and win now? Or at some point, will they ever really kind of pivot into a full rebuild? And that's something you could argue that they should have done going back years and years but when you're a GM and you have or a head coach and you don't have that that job security I can understand why Rick Spielman didn't do that in in the latter years of his tenure and he ended up getting fired anyways but sure did sure did in part maybe in part because there wasn't a clear direction. And I think this team, they got it right with Kevin O'Connell, it seems, and that alone gives you some sort of different direction

and a way that you're progressing with the franchise. And I really like the Brian Flores hire. I think there are some intriguing young pieces on this this team the offensive the offensive tackles you've got set you have the best receiver in football here you want to keep him here for a while but you're right they're still in that middle where they're not really declaring all the way one way or another and and there are a lot of teams like that you don't have to be either the Chiefs or the Bears. Like, it's a big spectrum in between. I mean, you can argue that you want to be one or the other.

I was going to say, don't you, though? Yeah, well, yeah, I think you want to be, but the reality is that a lot of teams aren't, and they're on varying shades in between. And that's what makes the Vikings are never a boring team to cover because there's always so much stuff that could this could happen and it could lead to this and they were we're just waiting for these for some dominoes to fall here uh and to see kind of the direction that this thing goes in yeah that's why uh this off season is weird and this season is going to be weirder but

i've always thought that at some point sort of time comes for you or rebuilds come for you in all sports but especially football where you can win 13 games and win every one score game or you can lose every one score game like how about the raiders last year the rebuild kind of came for them although they're dumb so they're like signing jimmy garoppolo and not living in reality but franchise tagging they're running back like they don't know what they're doing they're just not a smart franchise maybe with brady they'll be smarter but i don't think so but if you were the raiders they should have been drafting a quarterback they should have been the team to trade up to number one they should be tanking this year for caleb williams like they're

not because they don't know what they're doing but this team has kind of been that for years it's like well you go well Jimmy Garoppolo is their quarterback they're kind of middling it's like well Jimmy Garoppolo is kind of your quarterback also and you're kind of middling also uh in the NFC so they've kind of been that version and if they have that season if they have that year that the raiders had last year where they lost every one score game and they had a lot of bad luck uh then what happens then like then are you kind of tossed into a full rebuild and then you look back and go should we have done this years ago and the answer is yes you should have uh so yeah that and but if they but if they go throwing all this money around and they sign Hawkinson and they sign Hunter,

and then it's going to be like, well, you can't do that then. Then you end up staying in that same spot if you don't win and if you don't have an answer at quarterback. Very, very interesting problems to address. And we'll do it inside podcasting next time where we're not being bit up by mosquitoes. But I appreciate all your time. Yeah, we powered through here. This was some good outdoor podcasting next time where we're not being bit up by mosquitoes. But I appreciate all your time. Yeah, we powered through here. This was some good outdoor podcasting stuff. This was like being when your professor says we're having class outside.

Yeah. It sounds really good, and then maybe it's a little too hot, and there's bugs or whatever. Beautiful day, though. Good times, good times. So thanks for your time, as always, and thank you all for listening. Football. Football.