Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Packer legend Ahman Green joins the show and PFF's Seth Galina solves the Vikings offensive Rubik's cube

Episode Date: November 19, 2021

Matthew Coller and Sam Ekstrom are joined by Green Bay Packer legend Ahman Green, who talks about playing with Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers and what the Vikings-Packers rivalry is like and Ahman talks about his special relationship with Vikings wide receiver KJ Osborn. Plus Pro Football Focus's Seth Galina joins the show to break down the Vikings' lack of aggressiveness on offense and explain what we've learned about Kirk Cousins this year. Seth talks about how Cousins reminds him of late-career Drew Brees and discusses potential Mac Jones regret. For tickets to Sunday's game, visit TickPick.com/insider Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar and Sam Ekstrom here, and joining me, one of the great running backs in Green Bay Packers history to break down Vikings Packers, and maybe we could talk even a little Batman as well. I'm on green, a four-time Pro Bowler for the Green Bay Packers, and one of the greats of what I would like to call, I'm on the running back era in the

NFL where running backs were great back in the day. How are you, man? I'm doing good. You're right. I mean, it was not that day. We were great. We just played the whole game. It wasn't a running back by committee and defenses feared us because they knew if we got in rhythm it was going to be a long game and I remembered some quarter some linebackers telling me that like man we thought we hurt you man we thought we were out the game I remember it was my second year here in Green Bay and which is this is where I still live now and we played against the Bears down in Soldier Field my actually you know it's my first season there and I sprayed my knee in preseason and in that game I re-sprayed it and it was like week 10 week 12 it was late late in

the season and I remember my old college teammate Mike Brown who was a strong safety for them he says like he I come back in the game with the knee brace on i'm running the ball picking up you know yards and he's like dude man we thought we got you out the game man he's like you back i'm like yeah it's like just a little knee sprain i could play with a knee sprain ain't that it's mcl it's good it's good to go you know so yeah it's just we're and we're built differently physically and mentally too it's stuff that i played with the guys don't play with today high ankle sprains i played with the guys don't play with today. High ankle sprains. I played with like four of those, you know, it just take tape is give me a better tape job.

That's all I would say too much. So yeah, it was, it was that type of mindset that we had for all of us, myself, priest homes, Jamal Lewis, Marshall Falk, you know, that was some of the guys during my time that we all, we all toted the rock for our teams and did our job. I've got a question stemming off of that. You obviously played on a Brett Favre led Packers team, and he is sort of the quintessential football player that played through injury. Do you think that mindset sort of spread around the team and enabled you to tough things out because he was able to play through so much? I think, yeah, I say for one, I mean, I say be honest with myself. team and enabled you to tough things out because he was able to play through so much?

I think, yeah. I say for one, I mean, I say to be honest with myself, I did it at Nebraska. I remember having a slight shoulder separation earlier in my junior year. And we had, I did it at the end of the Washington game up in, we played the Huskies up in Seattle. And then the next game I had to play, I just put on a, I iced it and did all the rehab all week long. So I kind of knew that mindset. So coming to green Bay to see him do it was like, this is a tough dude. This is what he's everything I thought I heard of when I was in college. And before I got to green Bay, cause everybody, man, he's tough as nails.

He throws the ball hard. He's a good teammate. I heard all of that. And, you know, obviously Super Bowl champion, MVP. I've seen and heard all that because I was a Green Bay fan. I followed them. I watched the Super Bowl when I was in college, when they beat the Patriots. So when I got there, it was like, it's the truth. He plays through injuries.

He's a good teammate. He's got a country-strong arm. He could throw the ball very hard. And thank God I was a running back, so I didn't have to worry about catching his 120-mile-per-hour fastball beating the coverage throws. So I didn't have to worry about that. So it was good that I was a running back. I catch a little five-yard screen pass here and there, little dump passes.

So my fingers, even though they're a little beat up, you know, but they survived those years with Brett. Well, since we're on Brett Favre, I mean, this is a topic of great fascination for Vikings fans. You know, he was, I thought he was always a master of the check down. Like he would understand that defenses were dropping back because of his arm. And, you know, Edgar Bennett's and Dorsey Levin's and yourself and William Henderson, like all those guys ended up with tons of catches and big yards because I thought he was really clever about that. But how did you feel when Brett Favre joined the Minnesota Vikings? I was, I believe I was a Texan then,

or I just got released by the Texans. I was like 09 because he went to the Jets first. So that was 2009. And even when he left as a, as a, as a Jet, it was like, as a player, you kind of knew in the back of your head, eventually, you know, obviously he was coming to an end. He just didn't know when you figured he'll play a long time.

And, but then when a Viking happened, I just knew this for like, for a minute, like I know Packer fans, I know, obviously he was coming to an end. He just didn't know when. He figured he'll play a long time. But then when the Viking happened, I just knew this for like a minute. Like I know Packer fans. I know Viking fans. I'm like, ooh. Like this is about to get ugly in the stands. I was like, I'd rather be a bug on the wall, a fly on the wall in the stadium as a fan, just to see what goes on between Viking fans and Packer fans and the jerseys

and the T-shirts and what the signs are going to say because I know how both fan bases are you know we're we're they're brutal to each other I know this for a fact because I know a few Viking fans and I know a few Packer fans so that was my thing I wasn't even worried about the trades and the changes happen all the time as a player we're like you know okay that's part of our world that's part of business. But my thing went to what the fans going to do. The fans about to be in the stands killing each other because they they want to root for Brett, but they can't because they're Packer fans. And now the Vikings have them. They used to hate them. You know, I'm like, they're going to be torn. And now, you know, but he came in and did his thing.

He had a good couple of years there in Minneapolis. Yeah. And you got to be there, you know, for sort of the passing of the torch with, you know, in 2009, when Aaron Rodgers started to come into his own, I guess, what, what did you notice about the way he operated then where I think he was beginning to establish himself as a star in the league? Um, what told you then that he was probably going to be a pretty decent football player? Uh, I'll have to say right away was his accuracy on his passes. I noticed that in practice. So 05 was his rookie year.

That was the year we had a rough year once we got to the regular season. But during training camp, I just noticed, you know, he was on point. When he threw the ball, he had some sling on it. He had some stink, you know, had some speed on it. I say it might have been as hard as Aaron, I mean, as Brett throws the ball or threw the ball. And I say still throws the ball. I'm pretty sure he's still throwing it down there in Mississippi.

But they both had that velocity on the ball and the accuracy. But what I knew that, and I also think saw that he didn't really, you know, throw in dangerous territory. So where he didn't throw it where it was going to be an interception or his player, you know, the receiver getting hit hard, he tried to basically throw it away or take the sack or lift it. You know, it was something that his rookie year, McCarthy, I know when McCarthy came in in 06, so his rookie year was Sherman,

but then 06, McCarthy came in. And then something that McCarthy would say every offensive install, if it was red zone, if it was a short yardage goal line, whatever it was, he would say to the quarterbacks live to the next down. And that meant take the sack or throw the ball away or throw it where nobody can get it. You know, not our receiver and not the DBs. So live to the next play. And so I think that was kind of stamped into his brain and his process. He was already a smart kid, a great talent coming out of California

and having a chip on his shoulder as everybody watching the draft. I remember I watched that draft as he fell. Everybody was saying he fell. I'm like, he's still in the first round. What's the problem? What's the problem? But to him, I got it. Because I know I fell. I was told I was going to be a low first round pick and? You know, but to him, I get, I got it. Cause I know I felt, I was told I was going to be a low first round pick and I didn't get drafted to the third round. So I understand, understood his brain, you know,

where his mental was coming into this team. He was coming here on a mission to prove people that he should have obviously went higher than what he did, but then his talent, the physical talent was there. I saw it at practice every day. Rogers is kind of an interesting person from this perspective that he has a chip on his shoulder. And I think that it's to his detriment sometimes, but it's also the thing that drives him. I wonder just from you watching from afar, the way his career has developed, but, but also he's under fire a lot. And I think these days, right. These days, but, but even over the summer too, I mean, just like,

I understand they probably should have drafted a receiver at some point for him, but I mean, he seemed to take it very personally that they hadn't. It seemed to take it very personally that they drafted Jordan love, which again, I understand. But it kind of maybe created unnecessary drama for him over the summer in a season where he was going to play all along, right. And come back and lead a team that has the potential to go and win a Superbowl. So I've always found it just an interesting part of his personality, like many

great athletes who have the edge that drives them, but also can rub a lot of people the wrong way. Yeah. I mean, it's just the confidence that he carries. And what he was trying to do, you know, he spoke about this and he's talked to this to other players, you know, like Pat Mathic when he's on Pat's show. And he's mentioned, you know, I had those times talking with Gutekes about, hey, here's a list of players I want, you know, that y'all could consider for free agency or consider for the draft,

you know, getting Julio Jones, getting, you know, Odell Beckham. You know, those are the names that were popping up, getting this tight in. And they were not, you know, when I say they, the scouting department, the GM was not acknowledging that. And so he was seeing it around the league. Tom Brady, you know, requesting players. It was working out. Drew Brees requesting players. You know, these are quarterbacks, all of the same caliber, you know, Super Bowl winning quarterbacks, potential, you know, a future Hall of Fame quarterbacks.

It's like, why can't I? And I think it might have been that. Why? Why? Why? They're not listening to me. You know, it's like it's not like I don't know this game. I'm not trying to push my power. I don't think he was trying to push his weight around. I think he was trying to make the team better and help, help him, help that offense and help the team. Obviously get the players in line to make sure they stay on path to get into the Superbowl, because that is our goal every year from the time I was there to the time I left, that's the goal. And that's all 32 teams.

But for us, the Green Bay Packers being in Titletown, we see it every day. We're reminded every day where the super bowl was born so that is our mental it's like we this is you know super bowl bus every season so i think he was just trying to do that and and and and with everybody talking about it all you know all of us all the media conversation and speculation and that it it grew legs and legs and a body and then it had a mouth and a head it could talk so it was it grew legs and legs and a body. And then it had a mouth and a head. It could talk. So it was it grew into this monster that, you know,

that made him sometimes to people that don't understand, that don't know Aaron, you know, took him as, you know, that he was arrogant or, you know, trying to do a power move. And I don't think it was nothing like that. It was just like he was a competitor. You know, we've seen Michael Jordan, you know, do what he had to do with his teammates. If you watch the 30 for 30, you was in his teammates' face. He was going back and forth with Phil Jackson. When you have that competitive nature about you, people got to understand when that player gets upset or is at you or is on you, ragging on you about getting better. You know, you need to push harder. It's not a personal attack on you as a person. You know, he's not attacking your mom saying,

oh, you got raised wrong by your parents. He's not, that person is not doing it. It's like, I know you're a good player. Let's go, you know, let's do this. And they're saying it, and it may not be saying it just like that, but that's basically what they're doing. It's saying, you're an NFL athlete just like me. You're a number one wide receiver. You're a number one running back. Act like it. Let's go because I'm a number one quarterback,

and I'm going to go out here and play like it. So that's how competitors sometimes talk to one another. And when you're not around them all the time, you think like, ooh, he said that to his team, like, oh, man. But in the locker room, we have that comfort level. We should, a good team should have that comfort level where you could say almost anything to them and not hurt their feelings. Be like, you know what? I hear you.

You know, I got to step up. I got to do this. I got to make that tackle. I got to grab that catch next time it's thrown my way. So that's that conversation that when it gets, you know, once we hear it as players, it doesn't affect us. But as fans, it's like, whoa, that was that was, you know, that was a little crazy or interesting that he said that to his teammate or bought his teammate. So that's where I believe that where all that lies. Yeah, that's good perspective, Amon, certainly.

There's a couple of things in your playing career I want to eventually circle back to. But while we're talking, Rogers should probably get get your take on how you see this upcoming game on Sunday. Maybe how you perceive the Vikings from your vantage point, and what do you think is in store in this massive... It's really a bigger game for Minnesota than

it is for Green Bay, because Minnesota's fighting for their playoff life, but how do you shape this one up? I'd say this game more than... I'd say this rivalry for their playoff life. But how do you shape this one up? I'd say this game more than – I'd say this rivalry, this matchup, I think is a little bit heavier than the Bears rivalry that the news and the media always talks about. This is the rivalry that probably is the rivalry in the NFC North because of the team's defenses, offenses are always similar.

We've got a running back, got a solid defense, got linebackers, D linemen. And that's what you see here. You know, you got, you know, a good defensive front, a good defensive front. I say linebackers and D line that's coached by Zimmer. And he's a defensive minded coach. So his back end, the DBs, you know, Smith is a guy that I've enjoyed, you know, even though I played offense for years. In high school, I was a linebacker in high school and also I play strong safety. So I enjoy watching Smith come down and play strong safety, you know, the way he hits people.

And he's not an overly sized guy. He's he looks like, you know, a wide receiver slash normal DB size, but he hits like a Mack truck. And that's what I respect about his game, because a strong safety demands that that's what you should be. You basically a linebacker with speed. But he has not only the speed and he's a thumper. He has the intelligence to read the offense, know how to shut the offense down, shut a certain play down or help with the run game. Even though the near 100 is out, but they got guys coming up that's stepping up to play. And a lot of the games you watch in Minnesota, they have not just been blown out. You know, they've lost games just off of one or two mistakes, you know,

a cut, an interception here, or just not a conversion there. So they're right in the mix of these games. Sitting at four and five right now is a good spot. So for them, yes, this is a huge game because, you know, Packers with Aaron just coming back from his COVID. And now the defense, the good thing for Packers defense is they're playing good. They're stacked two games on top of each other. So going into this game, they got to feel,

feel a little good about itself, but not overconfident knowing that they still got to deal with a Delvin Cook. They got to still with Adam, Adam Thielen, and just, and Jefferson as well, that there's going to be, you know, great right receivers for cut, you know, Kurt to throw the ball around to. So, you know, hey, no match it up, you know, one-on-one matchups around the place, around the field for this game are going to be, you know,

detrimental for both sides of the ball. It's going to be trying to win with Jefferson and with Devontae, going to try to win his matchup to get open for Aaron and Jefferson for Kurt. You know, even a kid that I know that I helped train when he was in high school, you know, coming out of Michigan as a kid growing up, KJ Osborne, he's a kid that's now for that roster is getting into the mix. He's getting three or five catches a game and he's another talent that Kirk gets the opportunity to throw that ball to. So for them,

I said for the Vikings, yes, this is a big game because obviously it's a rivalry game. It's a divisional. What I always say when I was a player, divisional games count double because it's a, it's a rivalry and it helps us get into playoffs a lot easier. So if you win these divisional matchups, it makes your playoff push a little bit more easier come the end. You know, we're at the we're at the playoff because we're in it right now. We're in the thick of the playoff push. But come December, you win all the other divisional games that you need to along with this one for the Vikings.

Then they could be sitting in a pretty place come late, late, late December, early January. Well, Aman, you're going to have to talk more about KJ Osborne, because if you saw Sam smiling all the way back to OTA, Sam was saying, you know, this KJ Osborne is going to break out this year. And we were like, I don't know, man, he didn't have any catches last year. I guess we'll see. And then KJ has become a really big part of their offense and has come up with some of the biggest catches this year. So tell us more about KJ Osborne. Yeah, so KJ, how we met is from a friend. So my brother was in the Army with a friend of his dad.

And their families were so close, they called him his dad. So it was a guy by the name of Steve Medbets and his son EJ and KJ. They were like pretty much around each other. They were like brothers, even though there were different, you know, different families, but they basically came together as a family. And so I'm talking, Steve would come up and watch my games. He would bring EJ and KJ. They've been watching me since like 04, 03.

And what was funny, you know, both being, you know, EJ and KJ being kids from Michigan they still rooted for the Lions every time I was like wait a minute I'm giving y'all tickets to our games and y'all still yeah we Lions fans all day Amon I'm like oh man I say I'm not gonna give you out no more tickets I was like no I was kidding though but that's how it was just fun and that's how we grew to know each other and so one summer one year when they came up to watch the Packers and Lions game, you know, Steve's like, come on, you know, the kids, you know, they were at that time like seventh, sixth, seventh grade. And, you know, he's like, I had a conversation with both kids, both boys. And they said, you know, I want to, you know, I want to go.

I asked him, you know, do you want to go try to make it to the NFL or play baseball, be a pro athlete? They're like, yeah. And it's like, well, you know, we've got a guy that we could, you know, we could talk to. And so he's like, Amon, would you mind training the boys for the summer? And I'm like, yeah. I was like, I just read at that time, it was 2009. I just retired. And so I had a lot of time on my hands. I said, yeah, bring them on or drop them off. I'll bring them back. You know, that's the evening trade. So they came there. They came on the summer of 2009 stayed at my house they were between you know waking up early working out i said look we're gonna wake up early so we could be done early you know so we got up around seven o'clock seven eight o'clock hit the weight room uh do some cardio and then i said after i said we could be

done by noon or one o'clock and then the rest of the day is yours you know it's summertime so i want y'all to enjoy that but you got to get your work in early. And so because I say that's how our programs was. We had to be at the weight room by eight o'clock in the morning. So that means we have to be at the facility at seven and we got it. We'll be done with our with our weights and cardio by twelve, one o'clock. And then, you know, you can have your day. And so that was the routine. We wake up every morning, work out, do cardio. If it it was a speed agility day if it wasn't a speed endurance day i remember jogging or you know we have a hilly neighborhood and we're doing like rocky jogging around the

neighborhood ej he was a bigger kid at the time he was like i can't hang i'm like you better i was like let's go i said you want to be in the league or you want to play major league baseball or basketball this is it this is a grind and kj he's out in front. You know, he was up with me jogging. And then I remember one morning EJ came, you know, I started, I noticed EJ started not coming in on time. He was showing up late. And so I was like, you know, Hey, let's have a talk. I say, if y'all really are serious about this, you got to be here now on time. I said, because I could be playing video games right now. I could be doing something way better than this.

And from that conversation, KJ was only coming in late because I was his brother. You know, I was just he's not going to not just show up before him. So he was he didn't want to outdo him or whatever. So I was like, OK, at least he got that teammate attitude. I'm like, but you got it. You got to still be here on time. So when I had that conversation with them, I could see him flip the switch. He flipped the switch where he took it up to another notch as a sixth grader,

a seventh grader at that time. And then after that week and the whole summer, he just got stronger, got better, got ready for football. Fantastic high school career for both of them, actually. KJ actually got a scholarship down to img that got him to buffalo and then to miami and then boom on to um to the minnesota vikings so for for those years we always stayed in contact and i always tell you know i'll say hey i'm watching the games you're doing a great job keep doing what you're doing and you know stuff that he would say to me i knew he he had it. He knew about the hard work. He knew about the dedication.

He would ask me really quick, you know, quick, fast questions. And I'm like, oh, yeah, you're there. He's asking me about coverages. You know, what's the cover to like? What's that look like? What's the cover three look like? What's what happens when a DB is pressing you? And man, what should how should I get out of that? I'm breaking it down. All right. You should do this, that and the other. And so I'm like, OK. And I'm like, down. I'm like, all right, you should do this, that and the other. And so I'm like, okay. And I'm like, yeah, I said, he, that flip got switched. Cause you can't, I tell a lot of parents cause they ask me all the time when I train kids before they said, what can I do to get my child, you know,

girl or boy to figure it out? I'm like, they got to do it themselves. They got to find that. They got to find that switch and flip it. Once they flip the switch, you'll know. And that's what KJ did he flipped that switch and I was like it wasn't much I had to tell him after that his you know once he went home his mom and dad you know his family Steve would always call me hey KJ's doing this EJ's doing that EJ they both excelled in high school and then after high school obviously EJ he went into just the workforce he works construction now he's doing good for himself but KJ obviously kept excelling, you know, because he focused towards football. And this is why you see what he's doing.

So to me, no surprise, you know, because it's been there for a long since I met him when he was like 10, 11 years old. And that work ethic just grew, you know, as he got rewarded for going to IMG, going to Buffalo, going to the U, having, you know, having a chance to get in the transfer portal to keep his college career going and then get drafted to the Minnesota Vikings. So all that hard work and effort effort is coming through right now. And this is just the start. This is just the start. He's going to continue to ascend because he has a work ethic kind of like,

like between, I know his family and working with me, he knew my work. I think what I, what I would push myself to do mentally and physically with football and how the hard work in the locker room, dedication. And so I know he's going to be solid and just now keep Devin Cook healthy and that defense healthy. So Minnesota is going to always be that tree stump in the road for the Packers or any team in the NFC North. They're a solid team.

Amon, you came on the right show to talk about KJ Osborne. I mean, KJ is to me like... Sam could hug you right now. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We could do that. We could hug through the screen. I appreciate it.

Virtual embrace. No, that's awesome stuff. Okay. Let me ask you one more thing. And this is an abrupt change, but I wanted to ask you before we wrapped up. Cool. change but i wanted to ask you before we wrapped up cool uh but uh i want to know as a batman fan myself growing up watch the cartoon every single day after uh you know after school and watch many of the movies and stuff i want to know what you think is the best iteration of batman is the

cartoon is it the dark knight is it the like it's been done many times who did it the best well i'm as i always start with this because i get asked this a lot for nostalgic say who did it best was michael keaton 1989 um tim burton was the movie director kim basinger jack nicholson um prince was our guy i was gonna say our guy prince prince was he his soundtrack won an Academy Award, I believe, or Oscar. Yeah, Oscar. So, yeah, I'll say that's what was the first one for me from a nostalgic sake. I say since then and what I've seen between the animated movies that DC has put out, Warner Brothers done it. That's one thing they've done good because Marvel has been kicking their butt on the other side of the seminar battles. We already know what marvel's

done and disney's done they've done it they did it right but the animated dc movies of batman the different voices they have and the different stories they tell like the gaslight one i know he did a cameo in the suicide squad attack one and just, you know, they do so many things. You could do so much with a cartoon that you can't do on a big screen. I think that's what it is. They've done a great job with that, with the casting of the voiceovers,

but then the artwork and the design. So that's between the 1989 and then the animation stuff. But then another live action one for me, Christian Bale did an outstanding job in all his series of Batman's. He did a good job. He took in the role. He got in shape. He mastered who Bruce Wayne is and always will be. He is the world's greatest detective along with Michael Keaton. And I can't wait to see Flash movie where they actually have Michael Keaton

and Patterson and bruce uh uh ben affleck batman i think it's rumors they all might be in the same little flick if you pay attention to as a screen rant or movie rant whatever website that is to talk about uh the uh the easter eggs that are out there for us as comic book fans. But yeah, those are the ones for me. So I hope I answered your question there. Yeah, no, you did. I mean, I used to, every day for me was come home, watch.

I think it was Spider-Man, Batman, back to back in the cartoon version. And that to me was the best. And then everything else is just, can you match up with that? I'm sure if I watched it back today, maybe I'd be like, maybe it's a little corny. Yeah, it is. I've watched some of it. I'm like if I watched it back today, maybe I'd be like, maybe it's a little corny, but yeah, it is. I've watched some of it. I'm like, oh man, what was it? Like the Spider-Man is probably a little bit of corny, but Stan Lee, he wanted that.

That's how he wanted them with the pile, you know, and Batman did with the pile splat with the syndication show with Guy Ressus, Bruce West, or no, Adam West. Adam West, Adam West, and Burgess Meredith and Robin. I can't think Burgess Meredith and Robin.

I can't think of his name right now. I had it. I didn't. It'll get back in my brain. Okay. Can you real quick, before we wrap up, just give us a prediction on this game? Since we've gone in a lot of really interesting directions here. Yes.

We haven't asked you who you think is going to win. It's going to be, like I said, it's going to be a tough game. And I'm not going, I'm going to go with the Packersers and I'm not doing that because I'm a former Packer. I'm just going with them because their defense has stepped up in the last several weeks when Aaron didn't play to when Aaron played. They stacked on. They won those games. You know, offense just kind of did their job to get points on the board and it kind of took me back to the Super Bowl year for the Buccaneers when I remember seeing a comment from either John Lynch or Warren Sepp or Derek Brooks said hey offense if we if they score 10 points we're gonna win this game because we could keep a defense we could keep an offense out of the end zone so that's kind of they're not to that caliber but they're getting on they're in that path so I said just because of defense right now and the

little mistakes that occurred and the offense has done made mistakes on in winning or losing their games that might catch up to them, but they have the firepower to be neck and neck with the Packers come fourth quarter. But I think they get a little bit edged out and to say it'd be a tight score or something like, I'm going to say 20 to 17. It's going to be a tight game.

It almost always is. I think every win the Vikings have had against the Packers in the Mike Zimmer era has been less than seven points or seven points or less. So it's crazy like that. Amon Green, an NFL legend, a huge Batman fan. We could do a whole other show about your

esports and everything else. You see that little dude right there? Look at that. That's me. A fan made bobblehead with a batman green and gold that that is amazing that is amazing well it's been a pleasure and uh very cool that you're doing the uh believe in packers podcast so people if you can stomach listening to some packers talk and go check that out you gotta say that you would not be a viking host if you didn't say that so i appreciate you.

You stay true to your colors and your team. I like it. Well, thanks so much, Amon, for this time. And it was really great to get to know you. I hope that we can do it again. Oh, yeah. Anytime. I love it.

It's a great time. I'm learning to get better at being a commentator and a host myself. Me and Mike, we get to hang out, my old teammate. And I get to meet new hosts like yourself. So I'm having a good time. So Matthew, Sam, thank you very much for having me on. Thanks, Amon. You're welcome. Folks, have you ever thought about taking a bike to work but figure it's too far or that the hills are too steep?

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are you? I'm great. You got me really excited before the show because i'm gonna go watch american uh sorry east coast hockey league in cincinnati the next week so uh you've made my day already yeah you live in canada but you make frequent trips to the pff offices in cincinnati and we were talking about things to do in cincinnati which i don't want to insult other guests who live in Cincinnati. So I'll just say that I figured there was minor league something. And then you found it. East Coast Hockey League.

My first gig was covering American Hockey League, which is actually above the ECHL. And minor league hockey, man. I mean, it's amazing. It's great. So is this your first minor league hockey game or have you gone to minor league games before? I've been to the American Hockey League.

That's like the rank just under the NHL because there's a team. They moved the Montreal Canadiens, you know, development, not development team, their AHL team to the city basically. It's just over the river, so it's not that far. So I've been to one game and it was super fun. This is a little lower level than that this is the echl so uh but yeah and i've been to an like we were talking before i've been to an ncaa game at michigan which is

unbelievably fun so i'm i'm kind of excited yeah i mean here when the gophers hockey team is good which i don't know on the men's side, if that's happened often recently, but usually they can pack the house and the atmosphere of college hockey is amazing. But ECHL, I caught the very end of minor league hockey when it was like slap shot. And when, where there was just fights all the time and all sorts of crazy things that you've never seen before. I saw goalie fights and every team would have not one goon, but like several goons. Um, and now I don't think it's seen before. I saw goalie fights and every team would have not one goon, but like several goons. And now I don't think it's that way. I think it's mostly skaters and high flying and a lot of scoring because the goalies are usually terrible, but I kind of

caught that fringe of, you'd have like two prospects that could play in the NHL and everyone else just fought each other as a fun element of of it even though i'm glad there's less fighting now there there there have always been uh semi-pro leagues definitely here in in the different parts of canada where the the people aren't showing up to watch hockey like that you know what i mean like no one's showing up to watch people pass the puck around people are showing up to watch people fight each other which again i don't know if these are things anymore. I think we've learned that maybe this is not, this is not how we should be treating our bodies, but yeah, that that's, that's, that was hockey for a long time. Yeah, no, for sure. It used to be that if someone didn't get in a fight

when it seemed like it was appropriate, it would be like a thing that you'd be asking players and coaches. And that's gone away really in the last 10 years i think i looked at this not too long ago that even just fights per game in the nhl have almost disappeared maybe you get one every two weeks or something like that that's a legitimate fight um along a big difference from when i was growing up which i know i'm a little older than you but when i was growing up it was like every single hockey game had multiple fights. Uh, so anyway, let's talk football though, instead of ECHL hockey. I could, I could talk about this subject for a while because I've got some funny stories about it. One time, just real quick. I, once I was covering a game and you know, this was like

when you didn't realize people actually read the tweets, you just sort of said whatever. And there was a, a, one of the defensemen for the team I was covering was not a particularly great fighter and a legendary NHL fighter had been sent down to the minors and they were kind of scuffling a little bit. And I tweeted something like, Oh,

you don't want any part of that guy. And then the player read the tweet and came like looking for me in the locker room after the game because he was so offended that i said he was going to get his ass kicked so you know just but that also happened to you last week with kirk though uh yeah no that that has not happened with uh cousins what the thing about twitter and cousins is that uh he doesn't have to do any of his own defending because he has an entire army of people who, yeah, and he has you, which is what we're going to talk about, but he has an entire army

that are just, I think, searching his name every day and then looking for stats to defend whatever. So let's talk a little bit, let's talk about Cousins in this season, because I think it's really interesting. When you and I talked before the year, you had made your case that it was possible that Kirk Cousins could win an MVP. And I wonder what your opinion is on just how much his numbers have changed in certain ways and then also been similar in certain ways. Like in terms of his average depth of target, it's dropped to Alex Smith levels from where it was before, which was throwing it down the field all the time under Gary Kubiak and Kevin Stefanski, which is a big change. But he still has a lot of the other staples that, you know, the high PFF grade, high completion percentage, and an EPA that is not

impressive and expected points added that is not all that impressive. And I just wonder what you make of the numbers when you look at his season. Yeah, I wish I had a real insight into what's going on here because like you said, the PFF grade is going to be his highest ever as I'm looking up right now, 90.0. That would be better than last year's. Sorry, than 2019's 85.9. But you're seeing just the average set of the target go down by quite a bit and it's funny because i think we always thought of kirk as this like low average of the target guy and i

think the scheme kind of forced him to be a little more down the field uh and that's not happening as much anymore which is which is really. I think the funny thing for me, when you think about the Kirk narrative and stuff, is if this season was happening by Drew Brees, and it kind of did in that 2017, 2018, 2019 range, because Brees had built up this narrative about him, and he was a downfield thrower and obviously an elite quarterback going into that 2017 late career run,

you know, you would be like, oh, and they were winning games. You'd be like, oh, well, this is an MVP type season. But with Kirk, obviously we don't think of it like that, even though he's been really good. I think, you know, certainly PFF grade does a lot in terms of, of hey if you avoid negative plays if you are not an inaccurate passer uh you you can you can grade pretty highly because it you know a lot of this is depth adjusted accuracy

and stuff like that so i think you're getting into that a lot and the lower your your average set the target is going to be especially for a quarterback like kurt who is obviously accurate and obviously has you know we talked we talk to this all the time, very good footwork and technique. He's going to get the ball to the right players. So I think that's helped him. But the offense is just not what I think people want it to be. And maybe that's part of it.

I'm going to look up as you as you, as you talk here, I'll look up the, where their routes are being run this year. Cause I haven't checked that out, but yeah, I just, it's really interesting when you talk about the, you know, things that go into a PFF grade. And I think of this for anything is we're often looking for one stat to tell us all of the answers. And that is not ever the case. When you look at quarterback rating, quarterback rating is really fueled by completion percentage and completion percentage fundamentally is pretty flawed because a 30 yard throw that's

incomplete is the same as a five yard throw that's incomplete. And if you count those two things similarly, just like a home run and a single both count as a hit in batting average. And that makes batting average problematic. But of course, if your batting average is 150, you're not good. And the same as if your completion percentage is really low or something like that. So I think that every one of these numbers with Cousins that he's put up over the years kind of tells its own story. But I also think there's an element of this too, because you're looking up the routes that Gary Kubiak was running an offense that was becoming very popular, like suddenly, like what's old is new, right? Play actions, bootlegs, trying to get those deep

crossing routes and things like that. And those often worked against single high safety looks. And I think the league just really switched quickly with some of the success that Vic Fangio's had defensively. And we see it to some extent with Brandon Staley and Los Angeles. It just feels like everyone on the defensive side looked around and said, Oh, we've got to figure out how to stop these again. Like, uh, you know, teams in the early two thousands had to figure out how to stop the Shanahan stuff. And then we've got to do it again because all these teams have added to it. And I think when you have those deep routes covered, cousins is not the guy who's going to force it there, but what's going to be open is a check down to the tight end. And that I think makes up a large portion of his passes are when they try to run those and either a defensive end comes up field because they know it's coming

or there's two deep safeties and he's not going to throw it in a double coverage. Yeah, I think a good example of that is Adam Thielen getting wide open against the Chargers on Sunday and he throws the ball underneath. Now, I think there's a little bit of pressure. But I think if I remember that play correctly, I feel like the read should have taken him to Thielen anyways, and then the Chargers bust the coverage, and he still ends up checking the ball down to, you know, it was like a three- or four-yard route on whatever route it was.

So, yeah, there was a little bit of pressure. Like some guy got free, but, like, another quarterback sits in there and throws a touchdown right and i think that's always been um that's always been uh it's kirk's game right and it reminds me of you know rivers was always like that uh hey if i get anything that's not uh that that freaks me out a bit well check it check it check it and that's why rivers had like you know 300 targets to running backs every year um and kirk kirk has same similarities i think kirk um you know the funny thing about the vikings offense is that they force defenses to not give them what you're

talking about for the most part because they play with cj ham and because they play with the second tight end a lot and defenses and you saw it against the chargers chargers brandon staley is a too high defense team he wants to play quarters he wants to light you know give you light boxes and stuff like that and he played against the vikings and he said no i'm gonna load the box as much as i can and that has to do with the fact that the Vikings want to run the football and the fact that they do it with heavier personnel. So I think that also inflates Kirk's numbers. And this is why I've always been the – I'm not like –

I don't think Kirk is like this unbelievably great quarterback, but why I always feel like there could have been – I'm kind of off the bat a little bit now that whether why there could have been a year in which everything goes perfect and kirk wins the mvp because it's you know his his like box score numbers are really good because they get these looks that are so juicy when you have two elite outside receivers right when you play cover three when you spin that safety into the box or play cover one with it the outside receivers are one-on-one and you know you obviously have two really talented players out there so i always thought that was going to happen and the like you said the average of the target has gone down the routes haven't changed that much as i'm looking at it looking at just looking at

the heat map uh it's going to be hard to describe a heat map, but I don't see that much difference in terms of where the routes are being run. But he's just targeting them. He's targeting short a lot more. And maybe he's just trying to – I don't know. It's weird. I'm a Saints fan, and I don't think this is a good analogy, what I'm saying anyways.

But as a Saints fan, I looked don't think this is a good analogy when I'm saying it anyways, but as a Saints fan, I looked at, like, Jameis Winston in the games that he played before the injury, and I'm like, where's Jameis? Like, why is he checking the ball down all the time? Like, where are these deep throws and stuff like that? Where are these gunslinger mentality? And I wonder if he just, you know, Sean Payton got in his ear and said, no, this is how we play here, blah, blah, blah.

And like I said, I don't think it's a great analogy for Kirk to just be like, hey, they told him, you know, we want to check the ball down because I think he's been in the league long enough and he is who he is at this point. But it is interesting that it just seems like he just doesn't want to throw the ball downfield at all anymore. Well, and Mike Zimmer, after the game, made it very clear whose fault he thinks that is. And I mean, very clear where he was saying, look, I told Kirk, he's got to do this and he's got to target

Jefferson and he's got to push down the field. And I don't care about his interceptions. One thing that has come up, but I don't know how to directly, like I'm always careful to try to have something that I can point to as evidence to say anything. But the contract thing is real. He needs good numbers. If he's going to get traded somewhere else or if he's going to sign an extension here, it's a lot easier for his agent to point to, he only threw two picks all year and they were both tipped. Then it is, oh, he led the league in interceptions because he was pushing it downfield

and he overthrew somebody or whatever it might be. But I don't want to accuse a guy of changing the way he plays because of that, because I also know that his head coach is talking out of both sides of his mouth. Because in 2018 2018 when they opened it all up and he was very aggressive and threw picks and had strip sacks from time to time as one does um then Zimmer was telling him look you have people's jobs on the line you can't throw these interceptions and you can't make these mistakes and so you're kind of telling him both

things and I and I wonder if that plays into it. And I also wonder if just, there are more teams that have been willing to be patient with the run thing. Um, because I think Brandon Staley made a mistake that I think that if he had stuck with the too high and just said, I dare you to run for 250 yards on us. I don't think you can. Um, I don't think, I don't know if you've ever seen the Chargers interior defensive line. I don't know. But have you checked the Vikings interior offensive line? They're playing a backup center. They're playing two tackles at guard and neither one of them are good run blockers or like exceptional run blockers. And I think that the teams that are the smartest have dared the Vikings to run all day against them, where in some past years that has not worked. I mean, sometimes we've seen Delvin Cook run for 200 yards.

But oftentimes, it's like what the Vikings do well is they dare you to kind of stick with something you're uncomfortable with. Your natural inclination is to load the box, but then they're going to hit big plays on you. And on the defensive side, Mike Zimmer will be patient with playing his two deep safeties and he'll dare you to run all day because most, and the chargers made this mistake too. The chargers reeled off three good runs in a row. And then it was like, no, we've got to pass down the field and overthrew a guy. Then it's third down. Then Mike Zimmer plays mind games with you. And all of a sudden it was like, if you just kept

running, you probably win the football game. And I think that's a dynamic that goes into this is some of the good teams are willing to do that, but usually what it comes down to is, do they have good defensive lines? And that's what I think might play into this is that the Vikings have just played a tough schedule so far. They've played teams that can get after the quarterback, and I think that he's trying to get rid of it quickly.

But a lot of teams play tough schedules. And I know you're not defending. I know you're not – Right, right. Just pointing out this has been a trend. It's just like a lot of teams play tough schedules, and with good offenses, they win in those games, right? And that hasn't been the case so far.

So I don't know. I kind of agree with you. I think defensive coordinators, you know, especially at this level, get into – they get a little nervous when they see fullbacks and tight ends on the field. And they say, well, I'm going to get – they're going to run the football on me, so let me put my bigger package on the field and let me spin my second safety into the box and so on and so forth. And I kind of

think that i don't know i go back and forth with this but i also i just feel like if they're gonna put a lot of bodies in the box even if the you can afford to play with less bodies because someone will make a play in the box for you like Like there's too many – you have too many like individual bodies. Even if you're outnumbered, even if you're outnumbered, you have bodies that can get off blocks and make plays for you as they bring people in. Now, against a spread look, if you want to play a five-man box against just one running back and like four open receivers,

that's a different story i understand that now you have less people that are in that area where the ball is but the more they bring people in the more i think you can i don't have the numbers to back this up but the more i think you can remove people from your box um and still be able to stop that stop the run so and and it's funny because we saw Staley do that all year last year. This year, there's been games where he did it against the Vikings. He did it against the Raiders. They're obviously a heavier personnel team

when they can be, when they want to be, with Alex Ingold as their fullback. I think that is something that, again, this is why Kirk was supposed to win the mvp because of things like this right because defenses were going to give them these looks and there's too much talent on this team uh especially on the outside um for me to believe it was never going to happen but i don't know maybe it's never going to happen uh i don't well the way that i've thought of it is that whoops sorry drop my phone you uh you can't get the slider ever quite right.

You know, the, the temperature is never exactly where you want it to be. It's always a little too hot or it's always a little too cold. And a lot of offensive coordinators have tried a lot of different things and sort of end up with the same results. And he, it's funny about just how we even perceive what's going on with him because

he plays well for a half and it's like, ah, they've solved it. They've gotten what they need to do now. Just do it for the whole next game. And then you lose the Cooper rush because your offense couldn't do anything. And what you have, I think is a quarterback who needs a very specific set of circumstances to have great games. And those circumstances come up all the time. You play Seattle, they play cover one. They don't have any defensive linemen that scare you. And he just sits back there and picks him apart. And it's very impressive when he's on his game. But even in the first half of the chargers game, they're pressuring him. You get a strip sack mixed in, you get some checkdowns mixed in, and then all of a sudden you have to play really well in the second half of

that football game to win it. Uh, when you were a better team, I mean, the Chargers offense was bad the entire day for the most part, and you're the better team. And yet still you're having to convert a fourth down to close them out. And so they play a form of football and they have a quarterback who is predisposed to playing these close games. So there's almost an idea that it's random of, oh, well, man, just was so random.

They've played all these close games. Like, no, I think that that's kind of who you are. Also the other thing, tell me, tell me how you feel about this. Had a theory.

So I'm going to run it by you. I've noticed that the expected points added for running is with a lot of teams actually higher than it usually has been in years past this year. And the Vikings is lower than you would expect and way lower than it was the last two years. I think the teams are figuring out when, when they should run the football. And I'm not sure the Vikings have figured out when they should run the football. And, and that puts cousins in a lot of third downs ends long because they're just not really like doing this in a way that is as efficient as the rest of the league. Yeah. I hadn't seen that, but it makes a lot of sense to

me what you're saying. And I think this is always the issue. And I go back to the saints where it's like, you know, the saints weren't this like unbelievable rushing attack. They were very good, but I don't think they were like the titans uh you know with derrick henry there obviously but one of the things that was great about the saints was they never went backwards so you and you and it fits in with what their quarterback wanted to do and and you know obviously we talked about the similarities between what kirk wants to do and what drew breeze wants to do well it's easier to be Drew Brees on third and four. Like most quarterbacks, you don't want to play in any third down situation, right?

I think this is something that the narrative has kind of changed. There's not a lot of third manageables. Most third manageables are just like third and ones. So anything beyond that is going to be tough on your quarterback. And if you have a guy who you know look kirk is kirk is a really good quarterback like he is like he is a really good quarterback but he has his limitations and third and eight is a lot different for him than third and four it's just like breeze was at the late late career breeze third and four breeze he'll get he'll it's a first down

third and ten breeze it's a different story third and 10 breeze in 2009 is is is a completion but you know we're talking you know kirk is more like late career breeze unfortunately so i think yeah that that's really playing a factor into it and they just can't and i know you uh they're trying to find they've always tried to find a third receiver i know kid born uh. Osborne played well. Obviously, that's been – so that's been good when they do have to get into these spreader sets and put three receivers on the field. But I haven't watched enough to tell you.

To me, it feels like they're running a lot of the same offense that they've done with putting Ham on the field. And I looked these numbers up a few weeks ago, and it didn't seem like it was that different. You know, they see a lot of base defense. They saw them fourth. Last year, they saw the most base defense in the league last year. That should help their passing game, and it does.

But, yeah, I think once you get into these, if the running game doesn't work as much and I don't have an answer, like I don't have any specific answer to why it's not working, but if it's not working a lot and now you're forcing the defenses to play what they want to play on third down, I don't think I have problems. Yeah. I think that it's too wrong. I think that their offensive line is not as good at run blocking. They put a huge emphasis on run blocking in previous years, but then this year, Mike Zimmer wanted better pass blocking,

so they put these tackles at guard, and they're not as good at run blocking. That's part of it. Delvin Cook has had ankle issues where his explosiveness is just not quite the same. This is why people talk about running backs not mattering. It's not that they don't matter. It's that they fall off very quickly, and when pay them it might not be the same he hasn't broken 75 yard touchdown runs like he has in the past because you get an ankle injury you lose one half a step and all of a sudden those 75 yard touchdowns are just 10 yard gains right so i go ahead let's just say so so then you get in these situations where it's like, okay, Kirk has been really good because they can control

what a defense does to them. Like, again, they control what Brandon Staley did to them on Sunday. And, okay, that's great, and you're busting off runs. But now you say, okay, well, we want to be more pass protection heavy. Okay, that's fine. I understand why you want to do that. You feel like we want to be more pass protection heavy okay look that's fine i understand why you want to do that you feel like you need to win more games and how you win more games is through throwing explosive plays but now your issue is who your quarterback is right like now you're going to get into these more three wide receiver sets you're gonna do this all the time

you're gonna see less base defense he's going to throw short of the sticks because you're not going to play action as much you're not going to play action as much. You're not going to do this as much, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And that gets you into him being a lot less downfield passer. So even here, just overall, his play action rate is at 24.8%. In 2019, it was 31.6%. In 2020, it was 29%. So, like, all this is leading to him having to play more

in a less quarterback-friendly environment, and we're kind of seeing who Kirk really is. Folks, football season is in full swing, but we've got basketball and hockey getting rolling as well. And SodaStick has got you covered. You have to see the moose t-shirt designs for Marcus Foligno. You could also get your hands on the very popular dollar bill Kirill shirts as well on the basketball side, the design with three wolves howling at the moon, perfect for the spooky fall season and the design with the wolf carved

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This is an attorney advertisement from Kemet, Sanford, and Kramer, yourminnesotaworkcomplawyer.com. Yeah, no, I agree. And this was always something that even they would admit to about like he can't be in the drop back game. We don't want him in the drop back game. We want him on short yardage situations. We want him on advantageous spots to run play action. And like you said, the play action rate is lower. And I think that's been often determined by circumstance. And also the other thing too, is I think that maybe there's some details. Tell me what you think of this offense in general,

but I feel like the best of the best with this style of offense, just have this fluency of it, where they understand how to put different tweaks and things into it where every week you'd watch Gary Cougar be like Gary where did that come from and and how about Kyle Shanahan the other night George Kittle lines up in a bunch formation and then blocks the defensive end coming up field like okay because the tackle if you can envision this you know on a wide zone the tackle is leaving the defensive end George Kittle looks like he's lined up at wide receiver comes all the way back to make that block. And you go, okay, okay. Kyle Shanahan. I see what you're doing. I haven't felt that way about this offense this year. It's been kind of the standard stuff, but I haven't been

watching the tape back and go, Oh, look at that little wrinkle. And I think that's maybe just inexperience from Clint Kubiak. And I also think now you've coached football before when you're the guy calling the plays, you just have a lot of people telling you how you should be calling the plays. And I don't know that he was prepared for this. I mean, even on Sunday, Mike Zimmer, after the game, after a win where everyone usually is celebrating, like they've won the super bowl, Zimmer says, yeah, Clint Kubiak shouldn't have told you guys this week we were going to throw to Jefferson. As if we didn't know they wanted to throw to Jefferson. Right. But it was just like there's a lot of pressure from him.

There's a lot of pressure from Kirk, a lot of pressure for people around Kirk. Delvin wants the ball. Jefferson wants the ball. Like there's just a lot of things going on there. And, you know, you're facing the best defensive minds in the world as well this is something i've actually thought about this past week uh when it as it pertains to cliff kingsbury actually because i've come around on cliff a bit obviously like they're winning games whatever everyone's going to come around on them but he's he's always creating open players down the field

with something. They're doing something and there's some sort of trick look or progression of something. I'm just like, you know, in a league where everyone is so equal, in a league where everyone's running the same stuff

on offense, on defense, play calling does mean finding these four or five plays a game where you can create explosive plays that have nothing to do with who you have on offense or what you do generally out of your base stuff sean payton was always really good at that even what you breathe um and like i said i noticed cliff cliff gets into that stuff too they do a lot of progressions off their off their base stuff that's really good. So, yeah, I can't speak to it really like specifically with the Viking stuff.

I take your word for it. But, yeah, I think that is such a huge part of play calling because your base stuff can only get you so far, and again, in a league where everyone knows what you're doing and everyone's running the same stuff, so that the defenses don't really have to change week to week you know there was a big deal made about um the chiefs game on sunday night against the gus bradley running his same stuff every week the chiefs are are are one of the few teams that you should be changing your stuff

for but i don't know you know the vikings okay you're gonna play more you know spin more to single high and stuff. But for the most part, you're not changing so much of what you do against the Minnesota Vikings. And that's true for like 20 teams in the league, 25 teams in the league. So yeah, I think a big deal of play calling is finding these four to seven plays a game

where you have created an explosive play yourself as a play caller. I just really enjoyed the discussion about this because with this team specifically, because they're 14th in the league in scoring, it's kind of where they've been for years. And so we're always trying to solve this Rubik's Cube of like, well, what if they did this more? What if they got this player? What if, you know, so they have a third wide receiver, but they don't have Irv Smith. So they can't play two tight ends that actually scare people. Something named Luke Stocker is playing and had a holding penalty. And that was his contribution.

They traded for Chris Herndon for only God knows why. Like you were just like right there kind of blew up one of your main things, which is to put two tight ends on the field and then send guys deep. And Tyler Conklin and Irv Smith can both go deep, but three wide receivers, the other team knows you might go deep. They prepare for that. They put personnel on the field for that. And I think that impacts it as well.

And I think that always trying to kind of look at, is it this, is it that, or is it the other thing? And sometimes it's just personnel. Your guards are bad and your center is bad. And that's always been the case with Cousins and it's never been solved. And it's always been something that forces him to get rid of the ball too soon. It's just that this year it's happening a lot. So I think that it's like kind of, as Kirk Cousins would say in his press conference, is a combination of factors. Now, let me ask you something else, because you and I had a discussion months ago after the draft in which we talked about Mac Jones and you were not particularly sold on Mac Jones. He's the highest PFF graded.

I'm not doing the chargers thing where I try to rub this in your face. He's the highest because nobody knows. And we know that he's the highest graded rookie at the moment and is playing really well. And I wonder if you think now having seen it that the vikings should have drafted mac jones oh i wasn't expecting that uh no because i you can't tell me that as the biggest kirk cousins fan in the world that they should have drafted in the quarterback so no i don't think i don't think so now obviously the one thing i would say is, obviously, if you're in a world where you've changed contracts, like if you're getting Mac Jones on his contract,

on the rookie contract versus Kirk Cousins on the big deal. You can't separate the player from the contract. So that's a major part of this. Then it's obviously no doubt if you were getting him. You know, my thing with cousins with with mac jones was i wasn't sure i thought the tape was really good i just didn't know if it was going to translate and i knew that i could tell you for sure the tape was better than two us and in the same offense that i knew for sure that was my one take was that my one take was that if two of one

in the top five i don't understand why mac jones would go in the top five but the take was actually in reverse which is like two i shouldn't have gone in the top five and neither why mac jones would go in the top five but the take was actually in reverse which is like two i shouldn't have gone to the top five and neither should mac jones but anyways i i but here's the thing what would be different about besides the contract okay contract yes i 100 but what would be different what is what are the patriots doing? They play with the fullback every play now. They run power every play now. Last week in this clobbering of the Cleveland Browns, and obviously, you know, game state plays a lot into it. There was only one quarterback who threw less, you know,

quote-unquote drop-back passes than Mac Jones. They threw screens. They threw RPOs, whatever they did. So he's being protected just like in the good days, Kirk Cousins is being protected. Now with that said, again, and Mac Jones has been really good. The throws he did make were awesome. They really were. So I don't want to take anything away from him, but he's being protected at a super high rate. Players are making plays around him, even though we talk about them not having a great receiving core. It's been okay, and Hunter Henry has been really –

he was awesome against the Cleveland Browns. So, yeah, I think it's definitely – like you would take him for the contract, but I don't know if you're getting a drastically different player. But you are getting him 10 years younger, which is good enough. And the contract is good enough. Well, not only that, but what you get is, did we just, I think we got a little joggy there, but you get the quarterback that's the same essentially or very similar,

but you get Joe Tooney at right guard instead of Ole Udo. And you get maybe Trey Hend right guard instead of Ole Udo and you get maybe Trey Hendrickson or something rushing the passer instead of DJ Wanham. Right. I mean, that, that to me is the big difference here because, and I finally came to this realization a while ago that the discussion about cousins is some people look at it from a team perspective and some people look at it from a player perspective. And I cover the Minnesota Vikings,ings not one player and so when we talk about it we talk about what it hasn't really worked and they have an opportunity to make it work the rest of this

season the season's not over you're four and five you got a chance to beat the packers and go forward so i don't want to act like that's over but it's from a team perspective the contract and the player when you have to protect the player as you're talking about to get the most out of him, or he protects himself by throwing short and things like that. Well, if you added these other pieces around it, then you go, well, you can't though, like you can't just magically create, you can create some cap space. The saints and Vikings are certainly famous for that, but you can't create 25 million in cap space, which would be the difference between those two quarterbacks. So that was always at the fundamental part of the discussion of why they

should have considered Mac Jones more. They've watched an immobile quarterback for four years and they wanted someone who could run around. So they went with Kellen Mond. They didn't quite have the guts to trade up for Justin Fields. and this is kind of where you end up standing is now once again trying to solve the rubik's cube and hoping can you figure it out enough to make the playoffs which is not kind of where you really expected to be yeah and i i think my only thing with that is i obviously i agree with you like you know if you could could have went up and got Justin Fields, then do it. But the problem – I always think this problem,

and like we're seeing with the Packers now, they're losing years on Jordan Love's contract. Now, I'm not saying Jordan Love is going to be a good quarterback. I have no clue. I didn't love him coming out of college, but like whatever. They did apparently. But it's like the whole idea is you get a guy right right away and you don't have this 140 million dollar cap it on you know on the books already so that's why i'm like like i think

if you got to find a way to get get a get rid of him before you you know what i mean like i don't know i don't know if they're taking a quarterback and then sitting him for a year and then what if Kirk has a good year? What happened with Rodgers? Okay, so Rodgers won the MVP. You're screwed if you're... You just wasted Jordan Love. Of course, it's

possible Jordan Love becomes an elite player and we'll look back and say, who cares that he sat for three years or whatever. If not, you just wasted um and then you know rogers leaves and if jordan love is kirk cousins level now you only got him for two years or three years on the on the on the rookie deal like that's so now you can't even build so now you're stuck because you wanted to build this team around the rookie deal quarterback, but you can't even because you're only getting a few years on it rather than the full thing.

So like I don't know. I do think – I mean, look, at the end of the day, looking at Mac Jones, yeah, they should have just – if you can switch Mac Jones and his contract for Kirk, then yeah, you do it in a heartbeat. But yeah, it was always going to be tough for them, I think, to look it in a heartbeat, but yeah, it was always going to be tough for them. I think to look at that contract and be like, Oh, let's just, let's just find another play to play with him. You know what I mean?

Let's just find the tackle to play a Daris lot of play with him. Right. Well, you know, I think that to your point, the answer is, well, Rogers is, is just an MVP. So, you know, that's sort of different, but Rogers was kind of playing at a Kirkian level for a couple of years. And if he had done that again, well, then you feel really good about sitting the guy for a year and having him ready because rookie quarterbacks don't win the super bowl anyway. So, but they do come out in their second year after sitting and play well sometimes if they're really good. So the idea would be you sit for a year and you commit to what you're doing unless he wins the mvp and

goes to the super bowl that then okay then it changes things then you're fine that you wasted the draft pick because like who cares your guy took you to the super bowl right so apologize to no one uh but that's why the alex smith thing is more comparable here because you have a similarly a very very good quarterback but it's not quite enough. And then you, even though the guy leads the league in quarterback rating, you still move on because you're like the contract, who you are, it's probably not going to be able to get you there. And so that was my thinking with the draft at that time. And now having seen Mac Jones play, I agree. It's like, this is Kirk. This is what Kirk cousins looks like only on a rookie contract. And I don't think that New England team is particularly great.

I do think that a Vikings team with three more really expensive players probably is really great. So that's kind of the broader thinking. But it's a very complex question, especially when you add in the layer of people's jobs and pressure and all those things. And I am sympathetic to that because I think if any of us were coaching for our jobs or GMing for our jobs, we don't draft a quarterback. Yeah. I think that this idea of always like, well, just blow it up.

And it's like, it's like, yeah, that's great when you're playing Madden and you press a button and it simulates to the next season. And then you're still the GM and the head coach of the team. And that's not always the case. You want to have jobs. Like, people want to have jobs. We all need jobs. And you don't want to lose that job because who knows? Like, look, I understand that NFL coaching is a fraternity,

and there's a good chance you will find a job that's similar to the one you had, but there's no guarantee, and you just don't want to take – you never want to take that chance. You hold on to these things as much as you can. And, you know, blowing up a team and saying, hey, you know, it's okay if we go four and whatever, and then we'll get a good draft pick in the next year. It's like you're just not going to – you might not be there next year. No one has sympathy for you when you go four and 12.

So, yeah, i get that 100 okay last thing real quick um is rogers worse this year or what's happening there in your opinion because like pff grade's not that good general box score statistics okay when i've watched him it's felt it's felt more 2018 ish 2019 ish than it has like it did last year yeah i haven't watched i haven't like really watched so much uh green bay this season to tell you the truth just my so my thing is like i think they're just it's just like okay defense is a lot better this year so they can they can sit and wait here and they're going to be they're probably in the division obviously it's a big game going to this weekend but they'll probably win the division they're probably winning the division. Obviously, this is a big game going into this weekend, but they'll probably win the division.

They'll probably get a home game. Good chance they're going to get the bye as well, especially with Tampa Bay losing again. So, like – and the Rams losing again. So, like, I do think that they can sit and wait. Rodgers does have to probably start playing from the pocket a little bit more. Like, you talk about him being about him being the 2018 version. That was one of the problems.

So that, I think, will help them a lot going forward. It's just like keeping the game simple and not trying to be Superman every play. Yeah, I agree. And you have the COVID thing mixed in. You've had injuries. You've had Devontae Adams out for a time. Now they have Aaron Jones out. So it's sort of not been as conducive of a team.

But I think anytime you go into a game with these two quarterbacks, you're saying Rodgers is going to be the better of the two. So anyway, well, you can follow Seth Galina at pff underscore Seth. The Too High podcast is terrific, Seth. I'm really glad you guys are doing that. I mean, when did that start? Like a year ago? I feel like you've really caught fire with it and it's turned into a tremendous show. So thank you for your time. It's always great to catch up with you and I appreciate your insights, sir. I consider you as a person who is going to offer great insight every time we come

on and I can learn things from you, even about the team that I cover. So I thank you for that. All right. I learned, trust me. I mean, I wish we could record the stuff we say before the show, cause I learned a lot from you as well. Mostly just ECHL hockey stuff. Minor league hockey. That's the only thing I was telling you about before the show. So thanks a lot, Seth. Anytime, dude.