Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - PFF's Anthony Treash talks about the Vikings' direction and NFC quarterback timelines

Episode Date: June 29, 2022

Pro Football Focus analyst Anthony Treash gives his take on whether the Minnesota Vikings' decision to stay the course will pay off. He talks about why he doesn't believe in the Lions or Bears this season and whether Jared Goff will end up in Detroit for longer than we expect. He discusses Justin Fields and the possibility the Bears will move on quickly if he isn't good and discusses several other NFC QB situations. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here, joining me from Pro Football Focus, returning to the show, Anthony Tresh. Looking buff this summer. What's going on, Anthony? How are you? Doing pretty good. I'm trying, you know.

Got to get ready for the summer, but now a little stress reliever. But no, I'm doing good here at PFF headquarters in Cincinnati. Weather's been nice, so can't complain. How are you doing? You know, we're having a good time this summer. Some people complain about creating the summer content, but I think it's one of the best times because there's no pressure. It's like we could kind of kick our heels up,

but we could just talk about a little football. And then, you know, once it gets really intense in the season, then it's different, but we can have a lot of fun. And so this is Time Horizons Week, and I wanted to bring you on to talk about the different time horizons for quarterbacks because every year we go into the season and we think, oh man, it seems like every team's kind of set a quarterback.

And then it is chaos the next season as there have been failures and new draft picks and trades and everything else. So I want to talk about some of those situations, but we should bring our off-air conversation a little bit to the air because we were just talking about Kellen Mond and how people ask me a lot about Kellen Mond. And I've sort of run out of answers because he was a third round draft pick and he's fighting with Sean Mannion for a backup job. And if either one of those guys plays, you win three or four games.

And I, Anthony, I don't know what to tell people about Kellen Mond. Can you help me? Yeah. I mean, good luck to him. I mean,

I hope he proves me, proves us wrong, but I would be pretty shocked if at any point in the next decade, we're talking about Kellen Mond winning football games. It's just, you know, that was always a head-scratching pick to me. Like, you could, in my opinion, at the time, he was picked right around where Davis Mills and Kyle Trask went. And I think Davis Mills' rookie campaign is severely overblown.

Like, I don't know how we're looking at that body of work thinking he might have a future. I mean, he could, but, but like he didn't really show us any indication that he can be a franchise quarterback in my opinion. But anyway, I still think Kellen Mond was like a step below those guys, just looking at what he was at Texas A&M. Granted, it was a difficult offense, right? You know, Jimbo Fisher doesn't have a lot of concepts where he's kind of holding the quarterback's hand like some of these other schools, like a Matt Corral, for example, at Ole Miss.

But he just never made those high-level NFL throws. I mean, if you go back and look at his college big-time throw rate, I mean, I think it's one of the lowest in the Power Five, and that's pretty – you know, it shows what kind of quarterback he is. And you see that at the NFL, just even like the few instances he has stepped on a field. It hasn't been pretty. You look – I mean, like you were, we were talking about even in practice, it ain't pretty. It's just, I would be pretty surprised. Hopefully it proves me wrong. I'm never rooting for anyone to fail, but I'm just not confident. I'm not, you know, putting a little, if there

was a bet out there that he, if he could win X many games in his career, I definitely wouldn't be touching the oak on whatever that number is. But, you know, I was thinking about this last night. I was going for a jog and I was listening to the PFF forecast with Eric and George, and they were talking about Daniel Jones and how his first season, Daniel Jones, a guy with limited upside, had what, like 24 touchdowns, 12 picks. And everyone thought like, oh, wow. I mean, after this, he's just going to take off. But that's not how it works for everybody.

So Kellen Mond had an offseason, but he's starting behind Sean Mannion in this race. It's not like you're starting in third place and you can get to first. I mean, you are starting in 43rd place if you are behind Sean Mannion and you're having to go so far to even be a trusted backup quarterback that if he

does it it'll be a storyline in training camp not one that really matters but it will be one that we talk about somewhat but we have this sort of thing with young players where it's like oh well whatever they were last year they'll be better next year and the better the next year after that until they've reached their absolute peak and with a a player like Mond, that was kind of the critique when he was coming out. It's like, there's no real upside here. The guy has started for four seasons. If this is all that he did in college, he's not going to be able to do a whole lot more. And so I guess when I get asked about it, I get questions like, well, what is it that he can't do? And it's like all of it. I mean, all of the NFL stuff is what he can't do,

which is the case for most third-round quarterbacks. Exactly. And, you know, something you said kind of stuck out to me, and it's like a lot of fan bases always assume, like, where we were good last year is going to remain good, and where we were bad is going to get a little bit better, and we're going to be a very good team now. It's like that's not how it always works.

And you can't always look at rookies, you know, like third round guys, let alone like top 10 guys. You can't just assume if they were bad as a rookie, you can't just assume they're going to be great the second year, right? You see top 10 picks flop all the time. It's very rare to see third round picks become, you know, someone that you're talking about every Sunday, right? I mean, you get those rare instances, you know, people are going to be like, oh, Terry McLaurin, you know, AJ Brown was a late second round pick DK Metcalf. It's like, yeah, of course situations happen. But like some of those situations, some people

are like, wow, I can't believe he slid that far. Kellen Mond, it was like, I can't believe he kind of went this early, at least for me. And so it's kind of something it's hard to put expectations on. I mean, it's always interesting after the NFL draft, because everybody's always thinking like, we got the best draft class, we're going to get starters with all these guys. I mean, even like, look at the New York Jets this year, right? I mean, they have that three first round picks was at four top 35 picks picks and we'll see if they all pan out. I really liked what they did in the first round, but odds are not all of them are going to be somebody that's on a New York jet for the next, you know, 10 years, maybe even five years. Right.

I mean, it's just kind of the way it works. So, you know, with some of these younger guys, you know, it's hard to put expectations on them early. You usually see year two, year three for them to really start to pan out at most positions. So, you know, it's interesting. It's not always, you know, they just need NFL coaching. Some guys it is, but some guys you kind of just know what they are. In the case of Kellen Mond, like you said, saw him start a lot of football games down in College Station. You know what he is at that point, just a good college quarterback, but not a difference making one. Right. days young Anthony Tresh we don't develop quarterbacks in the NFL it's like if you're not good this is not back in the day where someone would be a backup quarterback

for years and then all of a sudden they would get their chance it's like if you're not great right away you're just out and you can go play in the usfl or the xfl that the rock is cooking uh that's going to be coming out soon but you're absolutely right and i'm sure that vikings fans felt a little attacked when you said it about everything that went wrong for us will go right this year or be better and everything that was right will stay right um and so that kind of speaks a little bit we could start with just their time horizon, and then we could talk about the other quarterback situations. Because I think that what the Vikings decided to do was create a little two-year extension to their window

that they missed over the last several seasons with Kirk Cousins, and he's the third most expensive quarterback in the league by his salary cap hit. And I guess I wonder if you think that it was worth it for them to extend that window out for two more seasons to try to have a different coach, maybe a different approach to building the rest of the roster with Kweisi Adafo-Mensa, or if you think they should have tried to take a step back in their quote time horizon and gone forward with more of a rebuild? So this is something I bounce back and forth with.

And it's hard to kind of like, I don't know, Kirk Cousins' situation is unlike anything I've seen. And I think a lot of people kind of agree, right? Because he's a good quarterback, but just all about, it doesn't matter if you're good, it matters if you're elite. It matters if you're great. Can you win us a Super Bowl? Or are we just going to be above average team that maybe can make a wild card and then lose? I mean, that's just not what you really want. So maybe I can see the case for why they did it, new coaching staff. Personally,

I probably wouldn't have, depending on, I guess, the options that are available. It's kind of hard to get a real sense of that. I mean, stuff reported you have your own idea of what you would pursue that's not always what's realistic right behind the scenes um so i i think it's kind of splitting hairs to the point where you can't in my opinion i can't necessarily pick apart the argument for doing it i wouldn't have done it um but it's it's hard to argue that you can't just given that he is a good quarterback and you know he has good data even though it has come in some you know very weird ways that's not necessarily you know indicative of the quarterback he actually is um and so maybe the new coaching staff can make something happen there we've seen you know coming from kevin o'connell

coming from the coaching tree that he has we we've seen him, that tree make success out of mid quarterbacks and Kirk Cousins. He's like mid plus, you know, he's not like the definition of average. I think he's slightly above average, but just all about how can you, how much can you extract from that? So it's, it's something I've wrestled with and tried to really fully understand. And I've come away with, I wouldn't have done it, but I can see the argument for doing it. Again, it's just one of the most interesting situations that I've seen really in the NFL, regardless of position, just with one player there. The thing with Cousins is that there's always so much debate on what he is and how good he is. And that's sort of where it ends, as opposed to kind of what can you do with a player with his skills and his talents.

And what we've seen, I think, is that Mike Zimmer had his system largely right, but then leaned a little too far on the running game. But he understood Cousins' talents to be able to maximize them, to have these good PFF grades, to have these good quarterback ratings. And now sort of the idea is, well, if we take that, but then like turn it to 11, then that will be different. But then also we're having to plug holes with Patrick Peterson or a draft pick or Jordan Hicks at the same time, because he's the third highest paid quarterback in the NFL. And this is the formula that you think, even if you guys are good at your

jobs, Kevin O'Connell and Kweisi Adafo-Mensah, which that story is far from written. I still think that the challenge is just too tough in a league where other teams get to pay their rookie contract quarterbacks 5 million bucks or even like even if you look at a new orleans where jamis winston i think his cap hit this year's like five million dollars or something and so you look at the like what's the talent gap between those two quarterbacks what's the price gap you go wow i i mean what could you have done with this good roster with a mariotta or a winston even, and then reset your cap and rebuild it? So I've leaned heavily toward the,

they probably should have stepped back and rebuild it. But if there is a scenario where they are legitimately competitive, Anthony, how would you view them getting there? And it doesn't have to just be this year, but I think if they are decent this year, then Cousins will be their quarterback in 2023 as well. I mean, if they're going this year, then cousins will be their quarterback in 2023 as well. I mean, if they're going to kind of take that next step,

I mean, it's really good. Just going to be, I mean, there's definitely holes across the roster. Like you mentioned Patrick Peterson, plugging him in there. Like they're like Patrick Peterson has had an excellent NFL career,

but it's past his time, right? He's not the old Patrick Peterson that we all knew that can shut anyone down in man coverage. Like he can't do that anymore. And so it's just kind of like, I don't think even it's that it's just, I go back to the offense. It's just, can they be more than what they were, you know, a little bit more pass heavy. We've heard Justin Jefferson talk about it. They're not so much focused on the run and he's excited about that. They're not so much focused on the run, and he's excited about that. They're excited about that. And it's just like, well, if this is the case, can we see a different approach, right? Can this offense really take it to the next level? And you look at who's there. I mean, Justin Jefferson and Adam Thielen, that's still one of the better wide receiver tandems in the

NFL. I know I've heard, I've had arguments here at PFF about it, that Adam Thielen still got some juice in the tank. He's still a very good NFL wide receiver this is still a very high quality duo Justin Jefferson's a tier one elite receiver which there's only so many um in the league so if you can fully unlock the potential of those two as as well as Kirk Cousins which again that's a big F which we just kind of like hinted on um that's going to be the driving factor to really taking this offense or team in general to the next level. I don't think it's so much everything else around them getting better. I just think you got to see a completely different offensive approach.

And that's going to take care of the team just because, you know, I think we can all agree we're past the days of getting by with, you know, an elite defensive unit. I mean, we see cases of it from time to time. can all agree we're past the days of getting by with a you know an elite defensive unit i mean we see cases of it from time to time but you know i i don't think we're going to see um like first one to come to mind like the 06 bears i mean that offense was horrible rex grossman at quarterback elite defense like we're past those days like you need a good quarterback you need an explosive passing offense and you know again you look at the data sometimes and it shows Minnesota has had that,

but it's just kind of when and what situations did that data kind of occur? And, you know, you kind of look at it and it wasn't in the important situations to kind of take them to that next level. So, you know, if they're going to take that next step forward, it's going to be because of the passing offense and kind of just being in you know a different offensive approach in general folks want to remind you to go to sodastick.com that is s-o-t-a-s-t-i-c-k.com use the promo code purple insider for 15 off your purchase it is summertime it's baseball season they have all sorts of great minnesota baseball gear and if you are prepping for training camp, get your Purple People Eaters shirt, your Can't Stop the Thielen hat,

and all sorts of other great football designs. Go there, SodaStick.com, S-O-T-A-S-T-I-C-K.com, promo code PURPLEINSIDER for 15% off. Well, I'll give you maybe the most compelling argument that i've heard for why the vikings made the right decision to stay with kirk and it's that you want justin jefferson to be a viking for life you don't want him to play with marcus mariotta for a year and win six games and catch 72 passes and be really mad and want to leave. At least with Kirk Cousins, he has shown some frustrations at times, as all receivers do with Kirk Cousins. But he has also set records and

had one of the best starts to a career for a receiver in NFL history. And if it's really important to you to keep this elite player, this sort of like up in this air of only players like Julio Jones or Devante Adams of the last 10 years, if he's up there, then it's hard to do if you make a mistake at that quarterback position. And Kirk brings you certainty. He brings you a great health record. So he's going to be out there. You're not going to have one of those seasons where you have to play Sean Manning or Kellen Mond. I think that there's absolutely something to that. I don't know if that fully convinces me, but I also think that if Justin Jefferson walks away with 115 catches and 1600 yards again and 14 touchdowns or something, even if they go nine and eight and he

signs some huge contract at the end of the season to be with them for the next seven years or whatever it is, that's a good outcome for you because he's not demanding to go somewhere else like many receivers do. I like that argument. I think it's a fair argument to make. And, you know, I'm a big believer in, I don't want to say tanking. It's got like a very negative connotation, but a big believer in just kind of rebuilding in general and pulling the plug when it's you know there and but the thing is not every rebuild is going to automatically just because you're going to rebuild doesn't mean you're going to get out of it anytime soon and sometimes you see these rebuilds last a very very long time and you piss

off a lot of people like the most important players like you said justin jefferson who has a chance to be one of the best players to ever shoot up for the vikings he's on that track he's on an unprecedented start to his career um over the last couple of years and if he sustains that he's going to be and you lose a lot of fans you know and of course from a team side of things you're going to lose a lot of money um in the way minnesota was kind of built if they did go down the rebuild path and that's where it kind of becomes what i kind of alluded to earlier what were the options available to them right were there any options to completely take if they did that they would have to you know completely strip the roster right because there's still some talent there that would help out unless they're trotting out kellen mon but

if they get like a Marcus Mariota, or with Justin Jefferson, like you said, they're probably winning six games or so maybe a little bit more, but they're kind of back to where they were. What good is that going to do for your team? You know, it's going to pay you less money at the quarterback position. You're going to be spending less money. But, you know, can you really build a roster around them and Mariota to be a highly competitive football team?

I still very much doubt that. And so going back to my original point, I don't know if they were necessarily in a position to fully pull the plug and get out of this anytime soon. Like it would have been a long time. And we've seen teams kind of do that. And they've been stuck in that rut for a while because they've just had, you know, you get that one chance, right? That one draft pick to really make a difference for your team. And then that pick flops and you're back to square one. And now you're spending the next four to five years in the same process, right? And you don't really want to be down that path. So again, it's just, it's a very tough situation for Minnesota. I think they've had their work cut out for them, and we'll see what it goes. That's why I can't argue with keeping Kirk,

just because I don't know what the options were, and it wasn't pretty out there in the picture. Of course, you want to keep your stars happy, like a Justin Jefferson, who we both agree looks like he's going to be a very very special player in the NFL and one of the best the franchises have yeah I think that they would have had to have danced the difficult line which would have been kind of eaglesy in a way where they have one step back season and then they you know thrust forward with making really good decisions with the roster which you know I mean Kweisi Adafo-Mensah, that's what he's here for.

He's here to make not Rick Spielman moves, even though he kind of did this offseason, but to make smart moves to gather a lot of draft picks. And that would have been the other path is let's move out all the older players, get draft picks, and then, you know, start that process without a full tank, which would be your sort of, you know, filler quarterback, or even in the way, think about the way that Denver kind of did last year, where it's like, well, Teddy Bridgewater, you fill that spot. But then we kind of know there's a quarterback out there. Who's going to want to come to us. That would be the other way for the Vikings is every year.

And this kind of could transition to our conversation about some other quarterback situations is every year there's somebody available. And what you want to be is the team that's sitting there going, well, you know, we got this open quarterback position and Justin Jefferson, what will we do? Oh, Tom Brady, Phillip rivers, Russell Wilson. Like it just seems to be the way of the world now that there's always going to be quarterbacks who are coming available for a team with an open position to be able to just pick up in some way.

Yeah, it's very interesting, right? Because, you know, I mean, we've seen this in, like, other leagues, right? The NBA, for example, just, like, these big, important players are just jumping ship, changing changing teams change of heart and you're seeing it mostly from the the guys that have been there for a very very long time while like some of the younger guys right now they're staying loyal of course they are right I mean Josh Allen Patrick Mahomes they're loyal to their teams you know Joe Burrow here in Cincinnati he's going to be getting a fat contract extension at some point. You know, these guys are dedicated,

but at some point maybe change of heart a little bit. And so it's just kind of looking at the whole picture. It's hard to assume that just like these guys are going to be available. But I think with the way the league's trending, you know, you never want to say never because you never know what's going to happen. Because I think if you would have said, you know, just a handful of years ago, you know, it's, you never want to say never, because you never know what's going to happen. Because I think if you would have said, you know, just a handful of years ago, you know, we're watching the Patriots Seahawks Superbowl. And then all of a sudden you say here in a few years, Tom Brady is going to be on the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and Russell Wilson is going to be on

the Denver Broncos. I mean, everybody would be like, that's not going to happen. I mean, these guys are going to retire at their teams. So it's, um, it's an interesting dynamic and it's not one you never, I don't think as a team building strategy, you never want to say, what if we just hold out that one of these guys actually will become available? Maybe we've heard a rumor that they might like our team a little bit. It's kind of hard to bank on that because if that doesn't happen, you're kind of screwed more than you probably were before. So it's something interesting. It just kind of seems like it's the lottery.

You're not banking on winning the lottery. You're going to buy a ticket and you hit, you hit. There you go. You have a new path, a better path. But it's not one you really ever want to bank on and quit your job and just buy a bunch of lottery tickets and hope that works out. Yeah, it's interesting because as we sit here here jimmy garoppolo and baker mayfield are still available and carson wentz was moved and like teddy bridgewater is a backup after being pretty much a 500 quarterback for a decent denver team it's like the available middling quarterback

could kind of get you from season to season where, you know, teams are just drafting quarterbacks. I mean, not so much in this last draft, but teams are just drafting quarterbacks and, and, and going with those guys right away to the point where if you're not great, if you're not like that elite level, the middling quarterback is kind of going to float from team to team. I think as we go in the future, as teams have kind of figured out this hack of the rookie quarterback contract. And it's almost like you could never get completely left out in the cold. You're going to either have a middling quarterback, like a James Winston or a, or a Teddy, or you're going to have an elite quarterback. Cause you got super lucky, or you're going to have a quarterback that you could tell your fans, you got to come see Zach Wilson, folks.

He's our top draft pick. And so from that perspective, I thought that if they moved on from Kirk, like where we'd be right now is probably talking about Baker Mayfield, Minnesota Viking. And it's a difference, but how much of a difference is it if Baker Mayfield plays well? Probably not that much, but you have flexibility. And then you kind of go down that line. But I did want to talk about some other team

situations specifically in the NFC. Cause I think they're really fascinating with these teams, time horizons, Philadelphia has a quarterback that did good enough to get them to the playoffs and has a lot of talent, but I'm not sure they're really locked into him. And they made some little shuffling with draft picks that makes you think that maybe they are not like completely locked in yet. Their roster is stacked. Uh, how do you think it plays out with the Eagles in their quarterback position? Yeah. I mean, I think you got to look at that, that team and just you give them a tip of the cap for what they did this past off season. I mean, I thought they did an excellent job in the draft,

not even just selecting players. But like you said, moving around those draft picks, I think that was probably my favorite thing happening in the draft. Disregard all of the players picked, all the steals, even the trade for A.J. Brown. My favorite thing was them trading that first-round pick, that extra first-round pick that they had to New Orleans to pick up one next year. Because that they had to New Orleans to pick

up at one next year. Cause I think it's probably going to be a pretty good pick and they can package some picks to possibly get a top quarterback prospect. And I think right now, you know, you never want to be confident that we saw that in the last year that there's going to be a good quarterback class, but I think there's at least a couple that I'm very, very intrigued with. And this is a team where with their quarterback position, I personally don't think Jalen Hurts is going to be the guy in 2023. It's definitely the guy in 2022, but I just think he's going to be, I think he's a low tier starter, maybe mid tier starter. But again, even with a good roster, that's only going to get you so far, right? Will we see them

in the playoffs? I would not be surprised if they're a wildcard team, but are they going to make it any further than that? That's where you need an elite quarterback. We saw that this past year when they made the wildcard, right? They were just not on that same playing field because they didn't have the quarterback position really there. I just think there's some inconsistencies. And I think Jalen Hurts has gotten better, you know, just playing within the structure of the offense in general.

But, you know, there's still some pretty significant issues within his game. And, you know, scrambling abilities, of course, you know, he's great for the fantasy community, but we're not talking about fantasy football. People love him over there. I personally, I don't really care about that. Just looking at what he can do as a quarterback, I just don't think that he has the capability of getting them to that next level and taking advantage of this roster so you know they're in a good very good position where if jalen hertz does all of a sudden just flip a switch and he becomes a star well they're set but if he doesn't they

have other options because they not only have those draft picks but like we were just saying if they they could possibly hit that lottery right they do have a pretty good ticket right there because of everything around them. Where, you know, the veteran becomes available, like I might want to go to Philadelphia. They got a pretty good squad over there. They got a pretty easy division. I think we can make it pretty far. The quarterbacks in the NFC are getting old. Let's let's make a run for this. So they're in a very good position. I would almost say that they're I'm more confident that they're going to be better in 2023 than they will next year, even though I have no idea who the quarterback is going to be.

Derek Carr, Philadelphia Eagles, just seems to make a lot of sense there. Someone like that, right? Coming over from the AFC, somebody who has a disappointing season in a really tough situation. Maybe Lamar Jackson, Philadelphia Eagle, if that doesn't work out, I'm sure he'll be a Raven. I'm just saying. Now, something I wrote a little bit about the other day is the Lions quarterback situation with Jared Goff. And here's the trouble that they have a little bit

is if Jared Goff is actually good and they restore the roar, then what do you do? Because he's very expensive in 2023. I think it's $30 million. He's also Jared Goff, but this is a guy who has enough talent to have taken a great offense to a Superbowl once upon a time. And if you go from winning like three games to winning like nine, then you're going to say, Oh, we draft a quarterback. Like, can you convince Danny Campbell that he needs a new quarterback after that? Or is he going to say, no, I want to roll with Jared Goff. I think that's an interesting one. Yeah. I've tried not to talk about Jared Goff with

Eric Yeager being my desk mate here at PFF because he's trying to restore the roar. I'm just, I'm not confident he's going to be a good quarterback. I think we've seen enough to know who Jared Goff is. And I just don't think it's that good. I think he is as good as we've seen. I think like he had that one year, of course, in LA, where they got to the Super Bowl, fell short against New England. But you look at the offense and it, I mean, that's one of the best offensive play callers and just designers schematically in the entire NFL.

And, you know, we saw that this past year, he took Matthew Stafford, who was in Detroit for a long time and helped him become, you know, the guy that everybody came to love. You still saw some of the Matthew Stafford moments where it was very volatile, but he led the most efficient passing offense in the NFL. And I think it's not just because of the quarterback. I think that says a lot about the play caller and the scheme. And I look at Jared Goff, and I want to say it's more of Sean McVay than Jared Goff what got him there.

And just this past year, I mean, the situation was less than ideal. I mean, the offensive line in Detroit is great. You know, the wide receiver room is improving. But, you know, still, Jared Goff, I don't think he had a single PFF grade at any point last year above 70.0 in a game, which is bad. That's just below average quarterback play week in and week out. I think even too this year, even though the receiving room is improving, Jamison Williams is going to be a great player, I think. But is he going to be that great player right away? We see he's coming off a torn ACL there's some concerns there you know I think we had the big excuse me we had that big debate with like Devonta Smith you know

just kind of being a little bit thin wiry how's he going to hold up against like you know NFL man coverage press man coverage can he hold his own? Like, I didn't have as much concern with Devonta Smith, even though the weight was like unprecedentedly low, because I think he was a more polished product that could get him by with that. With Jamison Williams, I'm more concerned about that, just because when we did see him in those instances in college, it wasn't necessarily like every single time he was shredding it, right? I mean, he was pretty unproductive against press man coverage all throughout his time there.

He got better down the stretch, but I think he has a little bit more room to grow into a finished product so i look at jared goff and just the situation he's in i still think they have some time and i look at him just as a quarterback i just i don't think he's i think detroit's gonna honestly i think they'll probably finish last again in the NFC North, and we'll see what happens. But I just don't think that they're going to be a surprise wildcard team. I hope Eric's not listening to this, but I don't think that's going to happen. I hope they do for his sake and his futures tickets and for all Detroit because they deserve it, but I'm just not confident that happened.

Yeah, I know Eric does listen to the show but i also think that telling people detroit are is not going to be good is uh not the hottest take i've ever heard um because they're usually not it's just that i could foresee this universe where they land themselves somewhere in the middle and then fans are like oh well jared goth played great he's not the problem we need to draft another i don't know corner or something and really the right thing for the organization almost no matter what with jared goth is going to next draft and pick the best quarterback you can find the other thing about their time horizon is they drafted number two in a year where there was no quarterback to take number two overall and i remember even the discussions about malik willis before we knew the

league totally did not like malik willis at all uh but some of the draft people did but it was like should the lions just do that so they've got like take a swing at it um but if they win like eight nine games now you're talking about drafting like 14th and then it becomes more difficult to take your bryce young or cj stroud or whoever it might be and you're sort of like pushing yourself it's almost like miami did where they they had fitzpatrick and they played just well enough not to get joe burrow whoops and then now then you end up with you know tua and you're just in the middle I think it feels like the Lions are kind of going to do that even if uh they don't achieve as much as our friend

Eric believes they will yeah and you know it's going to be interesting with next year if they if that's the case that happens like there's a chance where they could get lucky and that a quarterback could be available there because you look at some of the quarterbacks that are that are you know supposed to be coming out next year there's pretty big concerns with I wouldn't say pretty big concerns but there's concerns enough to the point where they're I don't think any of them are going to be viewed as this is the slam dunk number one overall pick can't miss guy you know he's going number one like I think we still have some stuff to see from all of them and I think Bryce young's probably the closest to being that personally i think he is that but i don't think it's going to be a league-wide belief because

of his size his footwork is does nfl like quarterback coaches you hear them all the time footwork is key footwork's key you know playing in rhythm you know getting everything everything on time that's the key to being a great quarterback he does does not play that way. That's not his game. He's the new breed of quarterback. He's going to just rely on playmaking, his arm talent, and all of that. So I think that's where the NFL is going to get a little disgusted. But C.J. Stroud, I could go and speak an hour about C.J. Stroud and what he is and what he could be and where I think he might be a little bit

overblown right now from an NFL draft prospect perspective, but I think he still has some stuff to work on, mainly mechanics for me. Spencer Rattler's one where I think it's almost like a Kirk Cousins-esque situation in the NFL where it's just so interesting and captivating because I haven't seen anything like it where somebody that was so once viewed so highly is now thought of as a trash quarterback, even though you don't want to reference quarterback wins 15 and two as a starter, one of big 12 title as a redshirt freshman has is our highest graded

quarterback since 2020, but everyone thinks he sucks. He still could be in the conversation. I think he will be in the conversation, but there's always going to be that thought in the back of the head where it's like, who is Spencer Routt? Do I really want to invest a top five pick on him after what we saw happen in 2021? So I could see that situation kind of occurring and who knows, maybe Anthony Richardson, the Florida quarterback breaks out. I'm not so confident that's going to happen, but maybe Tyler Van Dyke from Miami. He's got a lot

of hype. I still think he's got some accuracy issues to clean up. Will Levis, which is another thing. I don't, I get it, but I don't get it why we're hyping him up right now. It's just very interesting with the quarterback picture next year. I think we're going to have a couple that's good, but maybe there's one that maybe floats there where teams aren't really sure where to value him. Like a Justin Herbert, example right you know he was great early on kind of teetered off and then teams were nervous and it's like well we're going to go with the guy too uh who went healthy you know he won a national

title Joe Burrow just fresh off the national title um but then there's Justin Herbert who couldn't really take advantage of the the roster he had and you could say it was play con but you know, he was definitely a different quarterback at Oregon than he was at the NFL level. Then that, that's why he went, was the quarterback three in the class and, you know, consensus wise. So, you know, maybe it works out for Detroit, but you know, I think it's probably more likely that they just aren't a good football team

and they're picking top five, top 10, and they can kind of pick their poison to, you know, what they can have there, but you know, we'll see if they restore their roar. We will indeed. Just one more. I wanted to ask you about how long you think Chicago will stick with fields because it's a new GM, it's a new head coach. They're not tied into the quarterback at all. And fields last year, though, he showed some big time throw ability also did not show much other ability than that um got sacked a ton was very inconsistent uh you know it's a new system which always gets talked about like we were discussing to start the show it's like folks he's got a new system it's going to be completely different like well i don't know i mean i guess

we'll see but i feel like they aren't locked into him at all. They don't have to run it all the way out with Justin Fields. If it isn't good, they could draft somebody else. Yeah, for sure. And it's hard to get a read on what they really think of Justin Fields. Like, you know, you see a lot of Chicago fans kind of come out like, oh, well, look what they just said. They have all the confidence in the world.

And I'm just like, yeah, they're not going to say he stinks, right? Preseason. What's that going to do to team morale? Right. I personally am very high on Justin Fields. I always have been, I always thought he should have been the third overall pick. Yeah. Honestly, it was a toss up between Justin Fields and Mac Jones. Like I would have been fine. I wasn't a believer in Trey Lance, but I have faith in Justin Fields. I still do. But he's just like you said, he's in a bad situation. This is not the people that drafted him, right? We don't know exactly the way they feel about him.

We don't know what they've how they felt about him around draft time, you know, a year ago. And so you look at him as a quarterback, I think the way i personally think would i would be a little surprised if he wasn't their quarterback in 2023 just given his the upside that he does have and the nature of the roster um maybe they draft a quarterback again maybe they just go with that system i could see him throwing a couple more darts there and bringing in some competition um but you know just given his upside the way roster is, I don't think expectations are for, you know, him to lead them to the wildcard or anything like that this year. I think if he can show, you know, a little bit more growth like he did down the stretch, because I think he did grow a little bit last year. Like you said, he did have that, you know, that big time throw capability. He made some special throws. Of course, he has,

you know, awesome athleticism. You see him make some special plays off structure. But, you know, we've seen, too, just the issues with the willingness to hold on the ball. You know, the release is a little bit elongated. And it's just kind of, you know, that processing, just kind of getting that up to NFL speed. How much different is that this year? And, you know, I think we've seen a lot from him to know that I think he's always going to be that quarterback that has a high average time to throw. Like he's going to hold on the ball when in doubt always, but it's just kind of, you know, tightening up a little bit,

quickening the process just, just by the fraction, right? I mean, that can make all the difference in the world and understanding when and when not to throw the ball in those situations too. And so I think that's going to be the big tell of what kind of quarterback he can be this year you know rumors are you know he's quick in the release you see some of the videos you can time it it's a little bit quicker but you know and also too it's just we need to see him on an nfl field against nfl pass rushers how is he faring how is he you know diagnosing the coverages and you know how is his supporting cast too just because last year, I think Allen Robinson's a great wide receiver. I think he's going to be awesome for the Rams.

But, like, he was not Allen Robinson of 2020. Like, there was some clear issues between him and the staff that you could see he was not happy when on the field and, you know, maybe wasn't willing to do the same things as he was the year before. So going back to my original thing, I'm still a believer in Justin Fields. I think he's going to be the quarterback for at least the next two years for Chicago, but that's not to say maybe they won't throw another dart there

because I think you look at just the way – the pressure that is on Ryan Poles and just really the franchise in general, they need that quarterback position right because it's never been right. And you can – I mean, it just really has not been. Jay Cutler, that wasn't right. Jim McMahon had some moments, but he's not a Hall of Famer. And where else are you going to go? So I would not be surprised if they have a top 10 pick in 2023. Maybe they take a quarterback and they still have Justin Fields in their roster and they

just let those two duke it out. Maybe Justin Fields could have a Josh Allen-esque breakout. I don't know. I don't think that's going to happen. I don't think we're going to see another Josh Allen type of rise. So I think this year is a pretty pivotal year for Justin Fields. So he has a high ceiling, but a lot to improve on. So yeah, I think they're in an interesting position, but I think it's a position that really helps Minnesota in general, just because you look at Chicago and Detroit, I don't think at least for the next, in the short term,

the next couple of years, they're going to be teams that we're thinking, can they be the top team in the NFC North? And then you look at green Bay, you know, Aaron Rogers, obviously MVP quarterback, but how much longer is he going to do this?

He doesn't have Devontae Adams. How long is this ship going to keep running and then leading the NFC North? Yeah, I think with Fields, where he needs to be Josh Allen-y is to just take a step to where it's obvious that you can tell something's going on. Like that year, he got him to the playoffs and kind of blew it against the Texans in the playoffs. But like he took a team that wasn't really supposed to go to the playoffs and he got them there.

And even though he didn't have great statistics, he showed a lot of flashes of things where it's like, well, if you improve X, Y, and Z, this has a chance. If Fields wins three games, then you're just drafting another quarterback because you have to show some of those signs. It's like if he drags them to seven or eight wins, you'd be like, wow, okay.

I mean, there's something here, and now we could go to free agency. But if Fields is terrible, then they have to draft a quarterback. That's a pick that you can't use on a receiver or something else in the future. It really sets them back if he ends up being terrible. Right, and I think it's going to be interesting. So Chicago is a team that I'm very excited to see this year, just because, like you said, it's a new system. What's he going to do?

And Luke Getzey's offense coming from Green Bay, I mean, this is not tailor-made to Justin Fields'. I mean, it is to a certain extent, but just the type of quarterback that he is, this isn't necessarily something Justin Fields is used to, right? Because he's always been an aggressive downfield guy. He loves the downfield option. He's going to want to go to that option. And if it's not there, he's going to hold on to the ball and just win with his athleticism. That's kind of the way it

was at Ohio State. But he's going to be asked to play. The big thing there, a key that we've heard Luke Getzey talk about it just this past year. In Chicago, we've heard him talk about it at Green Bay, just playing in rhythm, right? And quickly getting the ball out and I think he's going to have some concepts integrated that you know field didn't have this past year that's going to help him play a little bit quicker but it's just how does that kind of translate to his entire game over the course of a whole year right is that going to really change things because we haven't seen that really change those type of quarterbacks so I'm going to be curious to see how that all transpires but i think i know i think he's in a good position to succeed but yeah i mean chicago still does have while they're setting themselves

up to be competitive they did a good thing with their cap space for the long term you know they still have a lot of eggs in this justin fields basket it doesn't work out i mean it's still going to be i mean we're talking multiple years that it's tacking on to this rebuild and like, like I'm kind of bringing this back full circle where it's back with the Kirk Cousins debate. It's like, do you want to be what Chicago is right now? I mean, if Justin Fields works out, then you're like, yeah, I want to be where Chicago is. But if he doesn't, that's a scary, scary picture, what you're really looking at. And it's going to be another, you know, like I said, a few years, three or five years before they can start cooking again.

Only if you see a difference between winning eight games and winning four games, if you see it, if you think that's a difference, then that's scary for you. If you don't think that's a difference, then it's not. So I, before we wrap up and this has just been awesome conversation, as it always is with you, Anthony, one of the things that you're known for at pff is being being the youth of pff and they make fun of you for it all the time i think it speaks to your talent that you are with guys like eric and steve palazzo alone sam monson have been doing this for a long time and uh and they like your stuff but uh we have to make fun of you a little bit for it so So what I want to do is I want to tell you franchises and you tell me the first quarterback that you remember from that franchise growing up watching

football. And then I'll tell you mine. Okay. All right. All right. Okay. All right. So let's start off with the Arizona Cardinals. Hmm. I would probably, I was like the first, like when I was starting to become a diehard football fan that was in like the the Kurt Warner and the Matt Leinart transition um so that that's kind of like where my my first go not like looking back at like the history but like when I first started like getting really into football and loving it, that was kind of the quarterbacks dominating or they weren't necessarily dominating, but they were in that picture. Yeah. OK, so Kurt Warner, Matt Leinart, for me, it's either Steve Berline or Boomer Esiason are the first quarterbacks that I remember as Arizona Cardinals.

How about the Minnesota Vikings? I mean, Culpepper is always like the go-to there. And you know, that that's just because like you hear just like that. I mean, that was, I mean, he was just kind of like a big influential person, a quarterback in general. And so that's where my head goes. Wade Wilson for me. Yeah. Back in the day, Wade Wilson and Rich Gannon are the first two quarterbacks that I remember there.

Detroit Lions. Ooh. Is it Matt Stafford? Yeah, probably. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

that kind of coincides with the, the Matt Leinart era about fifth, where I was close to 20 years ago getting there but well matt stafford was what 2008 or yeah um yeah i probably have to say matt stafford i can't really remember anyone before that i didn't really pay attention to detroit before that as as one should not for me scott mitchell in the barry Sanders era. How about the Chicago Bears? So full transparency, I grew up a Chicago fan. I'm no longer, I, working in football.

So I've been working PFF now five and a half years in some capacity. I'm 23. So I've been, I would say fanless for like the last six years, I would say, because like I was like, I wanted to work in football. And then my fandom just kind of died when I was like, trying to work in football. So I was like, I don't, I'm just a fan of the game in general, right? And you know, I love people that are fans, like, you know, Eric and the Chiefs, and he's a fan of the Vikings, even though he likes to dog on him. You know, you look at Steve and the Patriots, Mike and the Packers.

That's still on my old friend, Austin, still my good friend, no longer with us at PFF, the Raiders. But, yeah, like I'm not so much a supporter of Chicago. But I mean, I said Luckman, like I know everything about the Chicago history just from like, I was like eight years old. So that's why I was kind of like, I know everything. So that's like the first quarterback. But like when I was a kid, like who was dominating? Oh, I would not necessarily dominate, but like Rex Grossman. Not dominating really at all.

No, I was Rex Grossman, Brian Greasy, Kyle Orton, that quarterback room. but like rex grossman dominating really at all you know i was rex grossman brian greasy kyle orton that quarterback room yeah cordell stewart he was in a stint there right um yeah so that was kind of like my era when i was like starting to really be a passionate football fan see that's why we're playing the game for me it's jim harbaugh which is like weird that harbaugh almost became the coach of the vikings is Yeah, grew up watching him as a colt and a bear. Eric Kramer also from back in the day, little Moses Moreno

mixed in. Yeah, it was quite a time to be alive. Rick Meyer was a Chicago bear way back in the day. I think they traded a first round pick for Rick Meyer, as one does. How about Washington Commanders? for rick meyer as one does how about washington commanders um right that's kind of trying to think yeah i like campbell maybe probably i'm trying to think of something someone a little bit older than that but it's probably

jason campbell it's I mean Washington's a rough franchise I mean like by the time like I was kind of like getting in like I said I'm 23 I would say 2004 was probably when I was becoming a kind of like a I was fully ingrained in the sport and I attribute that to like I mean now we're getting too deep here but like I fell in love with the Miami Hur hurricanes and Devin Hester. Like I'm not a Miami fan at all, but I just loved how electric he was and he just ended up going to Chicago. But like, yeah, Washington was not relevant to me at all whatsoever.

They weren't really relevant to anybody, but yeah, Jason Campbell's probably the one that comes to mind. You might've had a Patrick Ramsey mix in there somewhere around that time. And for me, for me it's uh it's our friend Gus Farratt who's come on the show before he's probably the first one um that I remember although I remember in 1992 he beat the Buffalo Bills the Super Bowl with Mark Rippon so I guess that would count uh and that's the last one I wanted to ask was the Bills because I grew up Jim Kelly but obviously that was not the case for you and they had a

lot of fun between jim kelly and uh josh allen's who's the first bills quarterback that you can remember when you were growing up oh i'm i have i can see him i can see his number i can see like uh those old bills uniforms um j JP? JP Lossman. JP Lossman, yeah. Lossman, yeah. That's probably the one that comes to mind. They've had some interesting, like fun ones to watch, even though they weren't like that great.

But yeah, JP is probably the one that comes to mind there. Even though like Buffalo was a team, like when I was like starting to get in there, like that was a team that I kind was like starting to get in there like that was the team that i kind of was drawn to just to learn about their history just because of the they were almost there you know so many years and then they fell short with like you know kelly like you said but um jp is the one that i the oldest one i could probably think of yeah when i was uh really coming to you know be old enough to understand football at 12

13 years old that's when rob johnson and doug flutie were battling for the position so uh there's a there's a fun one to look up if if you've never heard the story the owner of the bills forced wade phillips to bench doug flutie to play rob johnson in a playoff game like the owner called up and said you're playing the other quarterback so the nfl used to be a little different i guess or maybe we just used to hear about these things and they still happen but uh anyway yeah i mean yeah like i've like i said i was like four years five years old four or five years old like this is all i've been doing just football my whole life just like learning about it. So like I know like the history of some things,

it's just like the way the NFL operated is so fascinating to me. Like it's just like how did they do this? Like how did they get away with that? It's just like situations like that where it's like, yeah, times are different nowadays. And, you know, you hear some, you know, old relatives talk about it. And just like the – like I grew up in Indiana and like the whole Colts like moving like that was just like a big thing. And it's like that just seems so wild. You just pack up a team and move overnight.

It's just it's just so interesting to me. But I'm a history buff just in general. So that's it. I love the NFL. I just love football. I love it. Just give me to August. Yeah, for sure. Okay. Well, just real quick, you talk about teams moving. I really loved the Browns when I was a kid.

You know, the Bernie Kosar and Vinny Testaverde, the Belichick Browns. And then they moved them, and it was kind of crushing because they were so much fun. They had a great team. And when they came back, I was like, man, I'm going to root for this team. I hope they win. So I remember buying a Tim Couch jersey or asking for one for Christmas. Like, give me a Tim Couch jersey and I'm going to cheer for this team. And then after like four games, I was like, no, I'm not going to do that.

That's not a good idea. So anyway, but always a great time having you on the show, Anthony. I really appreciate you taking all the time. And we will absolutely do it again soon, sir. Yeah, thank you for having me. It was good to kind of think back to my childhood and my football watching days. Those were some fun times. Yeah, I enjoyed this conversation.