Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - PFF's Brad Spielberger and CBS's Chris Trapasso talk NFL Combine buzz about Kirk Cousins and JJ McCarthy

Episode Date: February 29, 2024

Matthew Coller talks with Brad Spielberger of PFF about whether he believes Kirk Cousins will come back to the Vikings and their potential plans in free agency if that's the case. CBS's Chris Trapasso said he heard in Indy that JJ McCarthy may be a top 10 pick...where would that leave the Vikings? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody, welcome inside the Indiana Convention Center. Matthew Collar here for Purple Insider with Brad Spielberger for Pro Football Focus. Well Brad, this is your 743rd appearance on the podcast. Great to have you back and you'll never believe what we're talking about. You and I, Salary Cap, Kirk Cousins, it's your first time ever on this show talking about it. So hopefully you can keep up. No, I'm just kidding. But let me just start out with this.

Let me just jump right in hot. What do you think the Vikings are going to do at quarterback? I am starting to get the sense that this might be like the finally, the situation where they move on. I just think that there are other teams across the NFL that are more desperate and more willing to give him, you know, let's say two years, $80 million with the lion's share of that fully guaranteed, um, effectively all of it. I mean, if it's not all of it effectively

making it impossible to move on. Um, like I just think there are other teams, whether it's Atlanta, I think more people should be talking about Denver, um, that are in that market that I just don't know if Minnesota is willing to go there now, you if Kirk takes less and wants to stay in Minnesota, then maybe he gets done. But if his ultimate goal is getting the most money possible and the strongest contract structure possible, I think that happens elsewhere. Well, and I mean, he said it, that structure was going to be the most important thing. Explain that to me, though. When we talk about structure, I mean, guaranteed money, everybody understands. But is there more to that

conversation if you are the great magic Mike McCartney, his agent, and you're negotiating this with the Minnesota Vikings? What are you walking in asking for that isn't just the pure dollar figure that Adam Schefter is going to tweet out? Yeah, yeah. So beyond the guarantees too, it's cash flows. So you want as much money as early as possible. So you want a major signing bonus or a lot of prorated money early on because you're also, if you're him, probably saying, all right, this is the last window I have to try to chase a ring. Two-year deal, throw on three void years, giving a gigantic signing bonus that I get. The first three months of the deal, I'm getting on a two-year 80. Let's say 30 million of that, put that in a signing bonus, spread that out, spend around me, add players around me.

So yeah, it's also just when you're getting your cash. And then protection. So obviously, guarantees are protection. But also, like we saw in Denver and other places, it doesn't mean you can't move off of it. So early trigger dates, so the money in 2025 being guaranteed right away not a later date where it would kick in hey your 2025 guarantee would kick in the first week of 2025 like no like doing it all up front at the jump so there's no out for the team how hard would that be to do for a Vikings team that needs so much just before we went on we were talking about defensive tackle and how big of a need that is they have a guy in harrison phillips who's more of a five to six hundred snap player who they were asking to play borderline a thousand snaps last year which is just you know i mean they they had

to do it and i give him credit for trying but jonathan bullard was playing 600 something snaps uh they don't have defensive ends and i did not get the vibe that hair or that daniel hunter is coming back you need a linebacker i mean there's so much to do here with the roster how restrictive would it be to give kirk everything he wants yeah i think it becomes very very tough because you are making justin jefferson the highest paid receiver in nfl history this offseason um that's going to happen at some point i'm not giving inside information i'm just it's going to happen at some point. I'm not giving inside information. I'm just, it's going to happen at some point. And then, you know, Derris has come into the line. There are other deals that you have to figure out on the offensive side of the football. And that's the big thing for me is like the defense, like what Flores did last year was a modern miracle.

I mean, the defense talent wise was as bad as it gets across the NFL. So, and you're losing, you know, potentially, like you mentioned, is Daniil not going to be there? I know Wanham isn't a superstar, but Wanham is an 800-snap-eater, like, solid football player that, like, does matter, you know, on a defense. So, yeah, it becomes really, really tough. I don't see how you significantly improve the defensive side of the ball. And teams are, we saw it already, are going to catch up to blitzing 60% of the time or dropping eight.

Like, it worked until it didn't. And Flores, there's a ton of credit, but the gimmicks are like teams are going to adjust. What do you think about the dynamic between Kweisi Daffel-Mensah and Kevin O'Connell here? Because it was my observation yesterday at the podium, and as of right now, we're recording this. We haven't done our sit-down with those guys. We're going to do it a little bit later. So we'll have more information. But if you just I don't know if you've ever heard this comparison, but when the Nixon Kennedy presidential race happened, there's this famous thing about how if you watched on TV, you thought Kennedy did better.

But if you listen, you thought Nixon did better. It might be a little bit of a myth, but it's always been this thing that's brought up. So the comparison would be, if you listen to Kweisi Daffo-Mensa and then you listen to Kevin O'Connell, you would have different opinions on what you thought was going to happen. If you listen to O'Connell, you'd think Kirk's coming back because he loves him and he thinks he can run his offense. But if you listen to Kweisi and he layered into his comments, you know, you need a guy who could play in structure and out of structure when things go wrong. You're like, oh, yeah, I can't think of any 36 year olds with Achilles injuries that are making great plays out of structure. And then talking about, hey, it's a negotiation with Kirk.

It's a negotiation. What if there's a difference of opinion there? Like what happens if the head coach views this vastly differently from the general manager? I think that's the biggest thing is that it's hard for, I think, coaches to wrap their mind around, for the right price, this makes sense. There is a cutoff point where it no longer makes sense. And I think if you're a football coach trying to win football games and keep your job and run you know run your offense and and all that in your mind it's probably easy to say like why would a difference of five ten million dollars or x structure change like our

desire to do that or not do that and from front office standpoint yeah it's more a holistic view you are thinking about a million different decisions on the line and fixing other areas not that kevin doesn't care about the defense i mean they bring in a phenomenal defensive coordinator a guy that maybe could be getting head coach looks again down the road obviously areas that Kevin doesn't care about the defense. I mean, they bring in a phenomenal defensive coordinator, a guy that maybe could be getting head coach looks again down the road. Obviously a lot of dynamics there, but like they need to give that guy resources to use and to work with. So I think there probably is a bit of a disagreement and a bit of a split there.

Like I wouldn't be surprised at all. And what do you do if there is a split there? I mean, to me, the general manager is brought in and this isn't trying to will it into existence, I promise. But the general manager is brought in to build a roster. He's brought in to be an economics master, right? To understand the value of his commodities. And I know that it's human beings, so we can't talk of it exactly that way because there are so

many dynamics that go into this. And that's where you have a decision that can break apart a duo when it comes to this. And this happened already between Rick Spielman and Mike Zimmer over Kirk Cousins, where Mike Zimmer did not want Kirk Cousins and made that very clear to anyone who ever inquired. And, you know, we pin it on Rick Spielman. It may have been ownership. It may have been kind of the powers that be above, but he never really bought into that. And that dynamic broke apart. That was very strong in building the first iteration, the one that went to the NFC championship game. And this decision has that potential to kind of be a fork in the road with this relationship between Kweisi Adafomensa and Kevin O'Connell.

But I also think with O'Connell, what's harder for coaches is they need to see it work, whereas a general manager, his job is to see into the future. So I can see into the future and say that Sam Darnold or Jacoby Brissett paired with J.J. McCarthy could do better things than a 36-year-old Kirk Cousins who's coming off of a very serious injury. But to a coach, he's seen it work with Cousins. He's seen them score points. He's seen him run his offense. And the last thing that he saw was Kirk Cousins looking absolutely great against the Green Bay Packers. And I think that that has impacted the way that even Kevin O'Connell would see this situation. So the moving parts go beyond just the X's and O's of the numbers with Kweisi Dalfomensa. They go all the way to, I think, a kind of personal, like deeper level with this decision.

And that is why it's hard to figure out what's going to happen here. And I would say this, too. If you want to say, well, if you're Kevin O'Connell, you say, all right, if we're going to move on from Kirk, then are you going to trade from 11 to 3? What are we going to do then? It's not, you know, this one decision has downstream effects that changes the entire complexion of the roster, changes how you run your offense. Are you getting a rookie and building out the infrastructure to

to bring that guy along have a veteran to work with him and you know i guess you know mullins is in the fold but that's the thing too it's like okay well if we're not going to pay him then then what are we going to do um and i hate quizzy i know you probably don't love trading up three first round picks to go from 11 to 3 but if we're not keeping Kirk, then that's what I want to do. So yeah, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a tug and pull. And like, the thing is, you know, to a degree, we don't think and look at roster construction and winning football games this way, but like, these are guys where you have a good off season. Let's say you, okay, let's just say it's Kirk and they make the playoffs again. These guys are getting extended or I'll tell you, take a rookie and he shows promise. Maybe you're like a wildcard team or maybe you're getting extended. If you make the bad decision,

you might be getting fired. Right. Well, and that exists for everything. And this is why I refuse to think that one thing is less fireable than the other if it goes wrong. In fact, if you draft the wrong quarterback like San Francisco did, but you find another one, you could avoid that potentially. Now, I'm not saying in the seventh round necessarily, but there have been other situations where you draft a quarterback. Tampa Bay drafts James Winston. That's a bust. But then Tom Brady wants to play there because you've built up your team. And even with the Philadelphia Eagles, where you have Carson Wentz,

and he's a serviceable quarterback, you move on, you develop Jalen Hurts over a couple of seasons, but what's happening is you're building up this great team to where a lot of quarterbacks could succeed, and that's really the goal. The goal is to be so strong that, like, in 2017,

your starting quarterback can go down, and your backup quarterback can take you deep. That's the goal for a roster. And I don't see how it's possible at all to build that in a time window of Kirk Cousins, because if this team looked like the roster of 2019 Minnesota Vikings, I would be like, okay, I get it. Extend him, take another shot at it. We'll see, you know, try to fix the left guard position or something, but it doesn't. And when you go through it and you compare what they have right now to what they had in that previous era where they did that, it's just so crazy different. There was pro bowlers all over the field and now it's, they don't even have players. They don't even have actual humans

who fill those roster spots. So let's talk about two different plans though two different offseason plans starting with if they are going to draft quarterback so let's say atlanta comes in and says 40 million a year fully guaranteed for two years and kirk says i'm going to atl baby and starts playing outcast music uh naturally naturally uh i don't know that that's in his playlist except for maybe hey yeah probably hey but uh the early stuff definitely not so anyway but um let's say that the kirk leaves now you mentioned trading up i still like this idea even though i know it's wrong it's like when i go to taco bell again i'm'm like, you know what? Is this bad? Yeah, this is bad for me health wise. But I also I really want to eat my Taco Bell.

So I'm just going. I really want that franchise quarterback. So we're just going. Is that an unwise way to look at it? From my personal health perspective, it is with the Taco Bell. But is it unwise to say, hey, number three is the New England Patriots. They want to trade out of that rather than picking a quarterback. Drake May is on the board.

Let's go for it. Is that crazy to do? No, I don't. I think the justification for a massive trade-up for a quarterback, it is worthwhile. If you are, and again, we agree the defense needs help, but if you're dropping a rookie quarterback into a situation with two good tackles and two good receivers and a great tight end, like it doesn't get much better than what you could hypothetically give offensively to this guy. He's got to figure out, you know, bring back Risner, figure out left guard, whatever. But it's about as good as it can get on the offensive side of the ball in terms of what you're dropping a rookie quarterback into working with. So with that context, like, no, it's not crazy.

And of course, people will point to the Trey Lance trade or whatever. Yeah, it didn't work out. But no, that swing, it's a swing you take. And then if you, all right, all that savings, obviously we're giving up draft capital, but all that financial savings is now being poured into the defense. And that's how you go about it. I think that is, it's a justifiable approach. I agree. And you know, when I look at it from a surplus value perspective of, uh, you know, when you draft a quarterback and if he succeeds, how much money that's worth, uh, maybe even two, three years ago, we could have been saying, well,

you know, if the guy is making 10 million a year as being a top draft pick, then you're getting like 20 something million from the top quarterbacks. Now that number might be 30. It might be 40. If guys are going to make $50 million a year and the rookie contract is only going to put you for a salary cap hit for the number three overall pick at eight to 12 million or whatever it's going to be over those years, that is $40 million. And I, and I know that yes, those other first round picks would also have surplus value,

but nothing in comparison to that, a defensive tackle. If you draft a defensive tackle and he's just okay versus finding one in free agency, that's not even close to what it is for a quarterback. And I also agree that when you can drop someone into a situation like that with Jefferson and the way that Addison played and the coach that you have, who is a guy who's worked very closely with quarterbacks his whole career, they just brought in Josh McCown. You

cannot fail with Josh McCown in the building. I mean, it just is all set up so well. And this has just become, this has become my take after watching Drake May, I took some time and I sat down and I watched a couple games. And I saw the things that people don't like. But I also saw a lot of Matt Stafford-ish level. This dude has a crazy arm. And he does some stuff where you're like, that's not good. But he has the touch on the fastball. He's got the deep ball.

I mean, him and Justin Jefferson jefferson paired together to me look like the best pair you could come up with out of all the draftable quarterbacks and if it takes moving up to get him then take your shot because this franchise is known for not taking its shot yeah no no and i think the thing with may um is there are issues there but to me they're fixable like when you look at okay like what what are the pain points, the warts, with a prospective quarterback, they're all going to have them, obviously. And the bigger question is just are these things that we think, bring in a Josh McCown, have a Kevin O'Connell,

that they can work through and fix in relatively short order? And I do think that's the case with me. Don't make the dumb decisions where you're Josh Allen running and taking unnecessary hits, which obviously he still does. But bring that down. He drifts in pockets a little bit, sometimes airmails balls with, you know, some sloppy footwork. Like, things that, like, yeah, you bring in and work on the fundamentals and the technique. And if that improves, you're talking about a very, very talented player that has, like you said, I mean, cannon for an arm, good athlete, throws with a little field.

Like, it takes risks, honestly. The biggest difference, like, people keep making the Herbert count, which I understand throws in the middle of the field. It takes risks, honestly, the biggest difference. People keep making the Herbert comp, which I understand it, but he'll take risks. He will throw a ball into a tight window, which you need to do it sometimes. So, yeah, no, there will be maybe a first-year struggle, but I think he's going to be a very, very good player. Yeah, I like Stafford more as a comp because he's reckless

than Justin Herbert, who won't be reckless in fact needs to be more reckless and the plan for the Chargers is to hand off more that's and hire not a great offensive coordinator and Greg Roman that's that's their plan I'm not confident in it uh that make him more Alex Smithy with San Francisco I guess that would not be my idea for a 50 million million quarterback with that arm, but that is someone else's problem to talk about. So that plan would go along with then, and any rookie draft pick plan would go along with, you can spend as much money as you want. Now, of course, their 2025 cap situation is wonderful. It's the pearly gates opening to

heaven that they have been missing for so long in cap hell. But this year they could sign people and structure contracts. So they're a little more expensive down the road and that wouldn't hurt them because that's when their cap is going to be better. If you are to draft a quarterback, then how do you allocate that money? Because I think they're going to have a very tough time wooing free agents. On Madden, all you do is go to free agent, click, and then the guy just comes and plays for your team. It's amazing.

That's not how real football works because the Lions went to the NFC Championship game. Chicago is a team on the rise. You have all sorts of teams with more cap space. The cap just went up, so there's going to be some drunken sailors spending from other teams that are desperate to win. The Minnesota Vikings, I don't think, have a great chance of landing big fish in free agency, no matter how much money they throw at them, because players are looking for teams that are on the cusp of winning Super Bowls. If the money is even, they're not going to come to a team that went 7-10 last year and looks like it lost at sea a little bit.

With all that considered, what would your free agency approach be if they had Drake May or just McCarthy, Bo Nix, whoever they were drafting, if it was a drafted quarterback? I'm more bullish on players wanting to go there. Because at the end of the day, if you make the biggest offer, the player wants to go there. Yes, they want to win for sure. They also want to, you know, fill their coffers with, with coin.

So yeah, obviously it can be a challenge to have the strongest offer for some of those top end players, but yeah, I'm attacking the defensive line, especially if you let the Neil go, that's obviously the first kind of catalyst decision, either direction,

but we talked pretty sure on the interior in particular, you know, a guy that can, that can one gap, get upfield, rush the passer from the interior in particular um you know a guy that can that can one gap get upfield rush the passer from the interior to me um it is like the most glaring weakness i think maybe for the entire roster so i'm starting there there's obviously the big flashy names the guys that probably aren't going to make it to the market like a christian wilkins um but you know there's good players sheldon rankins there are that next tier that middle tier of player um you know maybe take a risk on a guy like a Tiger Tart. Obviously, you have to figure out the

non-football stuff there, but like there are a bunch of good football players right below that top tier that I think would make a meaningful impact pretty much right away. Tiger Tart, known for being thrown out of a Vikings joint practice and having to play the first half of a preseason game that no other starters played for the titans and then being let go by his team despite being awesome at football uh but that guy yes that guy but so i i was thinking about javon kinlaw and i don't like javon kinlaw when i watch him with my eyeballs but i think that's the type of free agent that makes sense to me this year is players who are under 27 years old and that they have potential upside. And if I use Marcus Davenport as an example, everyone is going to vomit while listening to this.

But how about Byron Murphy as an example? What they did last year was looked for a couple guys who were top picks who underachieved but had played and so you're hoping that you bring them in and there's more upside there and they can find their roles better and i do believe if you play for brian flores you have the best chance if you can't make it with brian flores then you're just not that good probably and so i i think that if they looked for those guys this year and then the plan was for next year to try to go really big game hunting. If you're a year into that rookie, that would be the best approach. But, you know, I mean, Brian Flores might also want football players on his team and for them to get somebody like Christian Wilkins.

So you kind of have those two approaches of you could go big game hunting and you could try to get much better really fast through this year's free agency or take a little more of a slower approach with younger players hoping for upside and then go next year uh do you like that plan do you hate that no i do i do and look yeah kinlaw down to down was a lack of consistency but you still do see flashes and as a pass rusher he's not good against the run but you see flashes of like not many humans this size can move this move this you know burstly off the line personally that's that's a new word um that's an early morning uh indie word yeah merriam-webster check that out burstily um no like you see flashes of it yeah i think it's a one-year flyer he's not gonna have a strong market um that does make sense for sure like you're saying like that's

this is the bridge year and then if you do want to make some more major splashes, you start looking into those deals. So, yeah, no, I think that type of player, and I'm blanking now, but there are some other caliber of player in that range as well that I think are taking shorter term, not that much money, young, upside, all those things. And, again, I get that there's the sticker shock with Marcus Davenport, but the idea and the process was sound. The result, obviously, was not. Right, and I think there's some edge rushers that are definitely like that. A.J. Epinesa is one guy. Is it Uche from the Patriots? Those guys have shown that they can play in the NFL.

Is there a little bit more? Bryce Huff is another guy from the New York Jets who, as a situational rusher, was terrific. Could you sign him and give him a bigger role with Brian Flores and get more out of that? So I like that a little bit more. And I think that you should take your shot when it's time. But also if there's pressure to win right away, you might have to take some bigger swings. I do think it's going to be hard for this team to get players of the top caliber with someone like the Lions having so much cap space in the Bears. But I guess we'll having so much cap space and the bears.

But I guess, you know, we'll see on that. Now, the other side of it is if they bring back her cousins, then you have to, in my mind, go veteran shopping, but also cheaper veteran shopping.

And you have to be really savvy. Now, this has not worked at all in the past. This is Delvin Tomlinson. This is Michael Pierce. This is Sheldon richardson part one and part two neither of which were that great so uh that that level of free agency i think is the hardest to play in which is the let's get the second tier guy who is team let him go for a

reason but also you know has a history of maybe being pretty decent or impactful. How would you approach it if you were limited by the Kirk situation? It definitely gets tough. No, there's no question about it. And the also probably you'd think would be trying to win though. And so like trying to push in a little bit more with less resources that you're probably looking at like veterans, you're probably more in like a Fletcher Cox market or trying to court, you know, we mentioned Miami connections, like an Andrew Van Ginkle on the edge

or trying to leverage the, hey, you've played good football with Brian Flores in the past. You know he puts you in a position to succeed. It can work, and you've seen that. And we're a team that is trying to get a ring in the next two years or make a deep playoff run in the NFC. So it's tough, yeah, because I think you are spending on quarterback and you probably are trying to be a little bit more aggressive,

at least this offseason, in adding more talent on defense too. Well, and they could go big game hunting if they were willing to kick all the money down the road and they might have to do that. I just think that's a hard thing to do because if you aim for those big stars and you miss out on them, then you're just kind of up a creek but this we've seen some of these signings work out i mean patrick peterson worked out extremely

extremely well for them and i thought you know i mean delvin tomlinson was also a very good player for them it's not that they never work it's just that the impact is usually limited there's only so much again another player i have immense respect for jordan hicks there's only so much, again, another player I have immense respect for, Jordan Hicks. There's only so much that a Jordan Hicks can do. That guy is more of a final piece than the piece that's going to change, which is fundamentally the difficult thing about working around a Kirk Cousins contract, as everybody knows so well. Last thing I wanted to ask you is just how does Kirk Cousins' contract situation work? Everybody's heard about the $28 million dead cap if he goes.

Does that make it for a hard deadline of March 13th where they need to bring him back by then or let him go? Like that decision needs to be made because the 28 million kicks in or can that be dealt with? Cause I've looked at that more like a, that's a deadline. They need an answer from Kirk and they're going to have their number and so forth. But what,

like, what do we need to know about Kirk cousins contract details that pertain to this whole decision? Yeah. Well, I guess if they were making significant headway and thought they were going to get a deal done, then you could ask to push the void date back, right? It's all right. Like clearly we're going to get this done. We've agreed in principle on the high level numbers, but we're not quite at the finish line

yet, but we don't want this to void. And you saw them do it last year or two years ago with Dalvin Tomlinson, you know, saying, Hey, the date was originally this. Now it's after the tag window, after all these things. If you think you're at the finish line with Kirk, but it's not quite done, say, hey, let's make it March 30th, and that way we can keep those cat pits spread out. But that would be effectively the deal would be agreed to in principle at that point. So basically it's a deadline, yeah. Okay. And is there anything else we need to know about that $28 million?

That is just gone. That is just over with and done after this year, and then you're good to go. Nothing you can do with it. Can't manipulate it in any way. But, yeah, take the dead cat pit, and then, like you said, 2025, the sky's open. That sounds pretty attractive to me. Brad Spielberger from Pro Football Focus. Well, we'll see what ends up happening here, of course,

and we'll have more information when we talk to quesia da flamenca and kevin o'connell again here at the nfl combine and lots more interviews and conversations to go thanks for stopping by man really appreciate it of course thanks for having me folks have you ever heard of test driving a phone network i did not make this up it is an actual thing. And U.S. Cellular is letting you test drive their network for free for 30 days. You can try out U.S. Cellular

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getting the app to try it out i know great sound effects there test drive us cellular award-winning network for 30 days us cellular built for us terms apply Awards based on open signal independent data. Visit uscellular.com for details. Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar, along with CBS Sports Draft Analyst Chris Trapasso inside the Indiana Convention Center here. And you know what I want to talk about, Chris, is you just flew in last night. We did a podcast inside a hotel room that was not the best lit

or the perfect background for us. Now we got a little bit better sitting in your window here in the convention center. But you had a whole evening to wander about. And if people have never been to Indianapolis before, it is a very walkable city. And I think that's what the NFL likes, it is a very walkable city. And I think that's what the NFL likes about it is that in the evening time, you go from place to place. You see who's out.

You kind of hang out, talk football. And I think probably for about six hours last night, I was just out talking ball. Saw you out as well. So we should just talk about the buzz from Indy. I think that's what everyone would like to know. So I will just start with this, that I had numerous people say to me, and this could be just other reporters or people in the league or whatever, that they don't think that the Vikings are going to be able to put up the biggest offer for Kirk Cousins. Not that they don't think the

Vikings want Kirk Cousins back, but that there's going to be another team that's going to put up more money for the Minnesota Vikings. That was kind of the biggest thing that I was like, oh, a lot of people think that Atlanta or Vegas. And someone told me, like, don't count out the Broncos as part of this. So that's like my new favorite take, like all buzzing indie Broncos. Keep your eye on that for the Vikings. So I love it. new favorite take like oh buzzing indie broncos keep your eye on that for the vikings so i love it that's that's kind of what i heard because every person i talk to sometimes there's other beat reporters i met a beat reporter from the lions so we're talking about the division stuff

like what are they gonna do they're just bringing back kirk you know that kind of thing everyone wants to know what's gonna happen there now you are much more of a prospect guy much more of a scouting guy so what were you hearing as you were chatting it up last night in Indy? Well, first off, you're totally right that that's like part of what you need to do when you're here at the Combine is go out, talk to people, beat reporters, scouts, agents are everywhere. Normally, this is like the fifth or sixth time that I've been here. And normally you go around and you get that buzz or you're looking for that. What's great is you can just nerd out with everyone. It's not like, oh, I'm talking with my friends at home and it's like, I'm going into the seventh round

defensive tackles. Like you can do that here. And it's totally fine. Like people like that. Normally there's not really a consensus. You talk to one guy and he says, I don't like this wide receiver. Then you turn around 20 minutes later, you're talking to a girl, and she says, oh, we think that this team loves this wide receiver. Almost a consensus from three separate people, which I think in one night getting the same thing from three different people, buzz is pretty good, that J.J. McCarthy is probably not going to be on the board when the Vikings pick at 11. Now it's early, and he still has to work out,

but these people that were in the scouting field, let's say, were like very confident about it, which again, no one knows for sure, but it was not like, oh, maybe he could be there at, you know, later in the first and the Vikings are going to probably pick him. It was, he may not even be there by 11 that it seems as though right now pre-workout for JJ McCarthyJ. McCarthy that the quote unquote the NFL that could be the whole NFL or one team or 10 teams likes J.J. McCarthy more than I think Matthew Collar and the media in general so that was interesting because we've talked about him as you know potential option B or C for the Vikings just to stay put pick him at 11 and that was how

I kind of broached that topic I was like what do you think about jj mccarthy to the vikings and all three responses where he might not even be there and you know i've mentioned this on the show before but even when i did an article with a couple of former scouts and was just chatting with them they were very high on jj mccarthy as well and i just am gonna have to have you explain it to me because all right so let's talk about if they're if he is off the board by the time the vikings are picking where would he be going like does that mean that a somebody likes him more than jayden daniels because i i could actually see that and maybe i'm wrong to doubt jayden daniels maybe like he's so fast and he's so physically gifted that someone's just going to be like,

all right, you got to take him. But we fell for that trap with Malik Willis. And I have made fun of it before. And I know that you fell victim a little bit to that as well. The traits, the tools, and assuming that the NFL would just buy into that. Now, with Daniels, he's a much better prospect than Malik Willis. In my mind, the guy won the Heisman. Unbelievable statistics and performance.

But it was a smaller sample size. And he does have some of that slow, like, should I throw the ball? Should I throw the ball? Oh, I'm sacked. And it was the hardest sack ever. And an NFL guy would murder me. Like, there's a lot of that on this tape. Would that throw the NFL off a little bit or those top teams from making him their franchise

quarterback and instead feel McCarthy is a safer option? Or do we think four quarterbacks could go in the top 10? That seems preposterous. It seems like somebody would have to drop. Well, to me, it might be Drake May at this point, based on some more buzz that it's what you just outlined with Jadenden daniels not that he would get picked because he won the heisman but the speed that he fits that modern profile that that teams are just so into and there's such a trend to find those highly athletic quarterbacks the deep ball touch i mean again you could argue for out for hours or days on it was it malik neighbors and brian thomas that really helps him out but there were a lot of deep strikes down the field and that what i actually was hearing is that it

could be the giants at six that picked jj mccarthy because joe shane and brian dable worked with josh allen not that mccarthy is a josh allen type like like he's not to that level athletically with the arm but he's leaning in that direction as opposed to being mobile and not having a strong arm he does have that long lanky arms delivery and wild fastballs that there you go kind of go everywhere and josh allen was able to work out the kinks there i think that's what you'd be betting on with somebody like jj mccarthy uh so we've got i'm not sure what the patriots are going to do they don't seem like a quarterback team to me because they have so many needs. They could for sure. Washington feels like a guarantee.

Chicago also feels, well, nothing's a guarantee, but Chicago also feels like they should be a lock to be able to do that. And then Atlanta, I think, is going to find somebody else, whether it's Fields, whether it's Mayfield, whether it's Cousins, we'll see. Would that leave the possibility of Drake May just being available to Levin? That seems like I made it up. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility. We've seen crazier things happen.

Let's think about this. Last year, no one expected Will Levis to be i mean there was a little sliver of the draft industry that was like oh i don't i'm out on will levis but i don't think anyone expected him to go to the second round like like realistically it was oh he could be the quarterback who slips a little bit maybe he's not in the top 10 or top 16 but he goes somewhere in the back half of this of the first he goes in the. So we have definitely seen crazier things happen. You mentioned it yesterday about Drake May does have some awkwardness or some throws directly to linebackers when there's someone open right over him. So he, right now, it seems like he's either the one or there's a team that wants him to fall.

Maybe it's the Vikings. So it So I don't think at all. I just said Caleb Williams going to the Bears is as close to a guarantee as you can get. Just penciling in or writing in pen Drake May to the Commanders at two, I do not think that is guaranteed right now. Let's do this. Off the dome a little bit here. Let's try to figure out what it would look like for the Vikings to get Drake May. Okay, let's do it.

Since this is your buzz this is your yeah this was the talk last talking to folks uh that J.J. McCarthy could go in the top 10 so if we assume Caleb Williams goes number one and you think Jaden Jaden to to Washington to the commanders of Cliff Kingsbury worked with Caleb Williams athleticism all that second best option makes sense makes sense I could also see Washington coming in at the very last minute to Chicago and being like, okay, let's give you a bunch of draft. There's still Washington until further notice. There's still Washington. They still in the NFL PA survey, completely crap the bed with the new owners. So they're going to have to prove that until they're not. But let's just go with that. All

right. Then we have the Patriots and this is a team that could trade down potentially if they are not drafting a quarterback. If they are, are they a J.J. McCarthy potential team? Because then they could draft him, bring in Andy Dalton or whatever, and play it out for a year. Jacoby Brissett's available. They could bring him back. Tank for a year without him starting

and then plan to build up their roster for the next year. That seems like not a bad plan if the league is this high on J.J. McCarthy. Yeah, I mean, again, it seems like it's still somewhat early in the pre-draft process, but we are here at the Combine and we have seen higher ascents for quarterbacks that have happened faster. Like from March to April 2021, we were talking this time about could the Vikings maybe pick Zach Wilson? Oh, he could maybe go in the – I think he's going to go maybe higher than top 15, top 20, and he goes number two overall.

So for J.J. McCarthy, if he has a good workout, again, I don't think it's going to move the needle a ton what he does here in Indy, but if the workout is on the better side or more closer to elite athleticism than just above average, Patriots at three certainly wouldn't be totally bananas. And that's not to say that I think Drake May, there's no chance he goes three. But again, I think for the longest time, people like myself just thought, oh, it's going to be Caleb Williams and then Drake May and then figure it out. That I don't think is the case. Okay. So if the Patriots do not draft a quarterback,

instead they say, all right, it's Marvin Harrison. Marvin Harrison, neighbors, whatever. Lineman, I'm sure there's a lineman who's high, right? You're not high on the top lineman, but that's for a different podcast. We don't, we're not going to talk linemen. Left tackle is set, that's all we need to know. All right, so you've got the chargers and you have the Cardinals and I believe the Cardinals this time on Twitter. They are not to be believed

on Twitter after the Josh Rosen incident, but I actually believe them. I think their plan is similar to the lions where they're sort of tanking around a franchise quarterback. It's bold, but it worked once upon a time for Atlanta with Matt Ryan, where they had a down year kind of pop back up and it really worked for Detroit. And it's not that crazy of a thing to do around Kyler Murray is just get him a receiver, build a team around him. So I don't think they're trading Kyler and that's where you land with the

New York giants. So this could be McCarthy, but if McCarthy does go, that could also be Drake may. And that would mean to me that if it's realistic that four quarterbacks could go in the first six which would be freaking insane yep that the vikings have to trade up at that point if they want drake may to go up and get in this scenario so this is talking about just a buzz scenario they would have to make a trade with arizona or the los angeles chargers

because they would have an idea. Get over the Giants at six. Yeah, the Giants were going to do that. Which, of course, that's better for the Vikings than having to go all the way up to three because that's going to cost an arm and a leg. If it's even two more draft spots, that could be the difference in a second-round pick or something like that,

a very valuable asset. So it's probably, I think, the most likely that they would have to trade up for Drake May, but just from one night in Indy, it seemed like the door kind of was propped open a little bit that like you're saying at the beginning that Drake May could be the one that falls. And we actually heard like two weeks ago, Lance Zerline on Move the Sticks podcast with Dana Jeremiah said that he already heard pre-Combine that Drake May was going to be the one who falls. There's always one. But now I think talking to multiple people, and I certainly respect the heck out of Lance, but to hear it from a lot of people

thinking that could be the case, the window is open a little bit where that's dream scenario. Drake May, don't have to do anything. You just pick him at 11. So this doesn't change my opinion that drake may is the best possible quarterback for kevin o'connell and the vikings it only makes it a little more exciting and possible that he could be available to them because the best case scenario for the vikings if they're drafting a quarterback is clearly to just take them at 11 and i guess i also got the sense and the people i guess you can call me a bad scout or maybe we'll see as it plays out but from last night that people don't view and then look i say people people i talk to there's thousands of people here but not viewing bo nicks as being a guy who you

would take at number 11 you haven't seen it that way so explain this to me what is it about jj mccarthy that has captivated the masses because i've watched it i'm not sure what i am not seeing that's supposed to be there when people talk to me about mccarthy and again would be all in on that decision if the vikings drafted him if kevin o'connell likes him then i'm you know good quarterback yeah i'm gonna say that a thousand times because i'm just telling you what i see and what i think but not like knowing what kevin o'connell thinks or what they want to do uh but it's a lot of you have to picture it you know those fans of the golden girls you ever watch golden girls oh yeah where uh the mother says picture it you know sicily 1923 yeah it's like picture it mccarthy in the nfl doing things he never did in college

like well i'm maybe i'm not good at that like maybe i'm just not good at envisioning stuff that i didn't really see with jj mccarthy but you've been higher on him than me so you explain to me what it would be that your scouting friends are seeing with McCarthy that everyone is falling in love with that I am missing. I think, and this is not anything that I heard in particular, but I think that there is, when it comes to scouts and coaches, for as much as you and I can sit here and say, hey, he has this weakness, that weakness. you don't want to have any weaknesses going into the NFL or very minimal. It seems like the NFL almost wants to develop a guy and say like,

Oh, I can fix that. I, and with JJ McCarthy, I think, and the combine will give us a little bit of a sense how close they are athletically. And from a physical perspective,

McCarthy's a little bigger. And I think he's a little bit more athletic with a little bit of a stronger arm than Bo Nix. And this is going back to more buzz stuff. I was not in Mobile for the Senior Bowl. All three of those people that I talked to in the league were, oh, my God, Bo Nix's Senior Bowl was horrible. Now, I am someone, I think the senior bowl should matter about 0.01 because it is this throw and it's your your evaluating practice with guys that have played

with that haven't played with these guys practiced at all with the receivers running routes whatever but apparently that is the thing for teams like that's kind of like we're saying that that it's different for for me to talk about it and you to talk about it in teams. And it was so bad. His footwork was terrible. When he wasn't in this perfectly insulated culture and system at Oregon, he looked kind of out of sorts in that they were pointing back

to other quarterbacks in years past that have not done well at the Senior Bowl. Guys like Jalen Hurts have done well. They kind of boosted their stock or maybe showed that they were more NFL ready than the entire league thought so I think those things JJ McCarthy being that moldable piece of clay and that Bo Nix had his opportunity going there to the senior bowl if he had a Jalen Hurts and we've used that comparison very comfortable the footwork was good the accuracy was good had a strong week of practice and then played well in the game then we would be talking about him probably in this in terms of buzz to be in that second tier middle of the first round but i think the fact that

mccarthy wasn't there actually did a lot for him because penix and bonex really did not have great weeks in mobile so let's just say that uh mr mccarthy does go in the top 10, and so does Drake May. And now we're talking four quarterbacks out of the top 10, and the Minnesota Vikings, they worked their phones, and they couldn't make offers because teams were like, this is our guy. Just like what happened with Anthony Richardson last year. They made the calls, but it didn't end up playing out because that was the Colts guy and they were going to take him the whole time. That seems bad for the Vikings if they're obviously in the market for a quarterback. And I guess you could see why they keep talking about wanting Kirk Cousins back. Because if you envision this happening, then you're a little bit up a creek if you don't think that Bo Nix is that guy.

If you think he's more of a second round quarterback, if you think Michael Penix is more of a late first or second round type of player, what would the Vikings do there? Let's talk about not just the draft, but also who's playing quarterback at that point. They still need to draft one, no matter what. Does this turn into try to get Jimmy Garoppolo here because he's played in this type of system before ish I mean I say that but the systems are so complicated now they're not just hey run the boots with Gary Kubiak it's like there's a lot of intricacies to it but he's run a Kyle Shanahan offense to the Super Bowl uh so you look at him do you look you know Sam Darnold's name is coming out Baker Mayfield do you all of a sudden sort of back up a Brinks truck for him for a couple of years?

Because you're going to, you're not going to be 100% sure though when you make this decision. Because Baker Mayfield is going to be a free agent in March and then you draft then. But if they come out of here thinking, we're not going to be able to get these guys, then they might have to make a phone call to Baker Mayfield. You need a real starter. You couldn't just be like, oh, let's just bring in Jacoby Brissett and win six games. I don't think that that's their mentality. And then, so give me a pairing.

Give me a, if McCarthy was off the board and May and Williams, like how do they, and Daniels, who do they put at quarterback in that room for next year? Well, I think the scheme fit does certainly make sense with Jimmy Garoppolo, with Sam Darnold, to be that, hey, we've seen you play at a reasonable level in the system, but we don't expect you to be the guy forever. But with the talent around you and with Kevin O'Connell and Josh McCown, a great coaching staff to maybe win 10 games and get into the playoffs, win nine games, go nine and eight, sneak into the playoffs.

And again, like I was saying, that they are not a tanking regime where they're like, let's just tank and be, you know, and look ahead to next year, one year prior to that. So those two that you brought up would make sense. The one other name, because I am more of a draft guy, Spencer Rattler from South Carolina. If they're just out on Pennix, they don't think he's mobile enough, or he goes earlier than they pick in the second round, whatever the case may be. Spencer Rattler to me is someone that at 19 years old was at Oklahoma really cemented himself, or I guess he seemingly cemented himself as this guy's going to be maybe the first overall pick whenever he comes out. Regresses at Oklahoma, goes to South Carolina,

and although South Carolina's teams were not very good, I thought the last two years he was rock solid, and he showed those, whoa, that was a fadeaway 40 yards down the field. There were a lot of sacks. His pressure to sack rate was right around Jaden Daniels. The offensive line was not very good. So he has some athleticism, but he's not going to elude sacks like Patrick Mahomes. He's someone that I think has the mobility, is well-experienced at the college level,

can be the boot action guy. And you're picking him third round probably, depending on how well his workout is. But I think he's kind of a dark horse name that could rise up the board, someone that played a lot of football, threw a ton of big-time throws early in his college career at 19 years old, and then kind of did that later at south carolina in the sec spencer rattler has sort of been the draft analyst's quarterback yes that is i'm on the

train right and his uh senior bowl where rick spielman who does a podcast with cbs sports he mentioned with ryan wilson that he thought rattler might have been the best quarterback there and the way that he performed which i i know that you don't weigh it heavily, but it seems the NFL does. The NFL definitely does. That's their first look. It's their first impression. It matters the most. Famously, Dave Gettleman saw two seconds of Daniel Jones or something and decided he was the guy or whatever, which was kind of the old school scout way of doing it.

But there's still that ingrained of like like this is my first thought on that guy and i guess if you were asking if the if the vikings are not super high on pennix would you rather them take him in the second or rattler it's obviously rattler because he even now i like pennix still but rattler would be the younger higher ceiling not as much injury and someone who's moldable for kevin o'connell i'm never a big believer in the second rounder the third rounder because history is just not very to those people i also think that despite your buzz i still just can't see four quarterbacks in the top ten yeah it'll be pretty surprising too much uh i love it for a scenario to talk about but i just don't i don't don't see it. And I keep wondering, does somebody want Drake May to drop?

Who wants him to drop? Because it's just been so solidified for so long that he was this elite prospect. And then all of a sudden you get here and then, well... It's weird how that happens, right? Yeah, right. Maybe he's not. But let's go down that road a little farther,. Uh, as far as the, I mean, free agents and options,

I would say Baker Mayfield is the best option to do that on a short contract that they could get out of a Gino Smith type of deal where you could be legitimately good with him on offense. He just got done with a very good season throwing to great receivers and he'd be doing that again. If you weren't looking to spend the money though, I'm out on the Jimmy Garoppolo idea. He just is too hurt for me. Uh, receivers and he'd be doing that again if you weren't looking to spend the money though i'm out on the jimmy garoppolo idea he just is too hurt for me uh as far as him is actually as a

quarterback i mean he's had a lot of success sign him and then suddenly be like oh we're back to where we were because he's hurt he's gonna have a hip injury or something like it's just gonna happen he he we were joking about you know jayden daniels getting himself hurt but jimmy garoppolo's done that for his whole career it has to be of that Baker Mayfield level or I guess someone like Darnold, but I don't even love that idea unless it's paired with someone I think is going to be the future quarterback. You could feel a little bit up a creek, but what would they be doing at number 11 in that case if there were four quarterbacks going at the top and the league was this high on McCarthy? Okay, so I'll tell you a name and you tell me if he's someone that, or the position makes sense.

Byron Murphy from Texas. He, to me is, should be the first interior defensive lineman off the board. And to me, when it comes to interior defensive lineman, they need to be like super explosive, can get you 40 to 60 or 70 pressures, six to 12 sacks, like anyone else, any big body. I mean, nothing against Jordan Davis, but I thought that pick two years ago, like by the Eagles was a weird one. Cause he was, and I know he tested through the roof, but he was so big. He's had some conditioning weight problems being in the NFL. Can't play all the time.

I want my guy to be Ed Oliver to Aaron Donald, somewhere in that range. And to me, Byron Murphy on film, the explosiveness, the production was there at a big-time school at Texas. And it feels like, to me, it's like I'm in my head trying to think, what defensive positions do the Vikings need? And I think it's a lot of them. And interior of the defensive line, you could say, oh, the run stopping might need to be better. But you tell me, would that make sense in terms of what they need? Because I think he's a premier prospect at that spot. If you told me that they should go out this offseason and get three defensive tackles,

I would say yes, because they have just been so empty at that position for so long. And when they had their best defenses, Linval Joseph was there just annihilating people in the middle. Right. Sheree Floyd, had he stayed healthy, would have probably had a really good career. Yeah, true. The injuries got him, but he was super talented. He was a problem in 2015 for a defense that was elite and won the division that year. And that's what you're looking for again, because they just have not been able to create any pressure.

Interior pressure. And the way I look at interior pressure is, and I know that there have been some statistical studies on it and so forth, and more fumbles come from the edge rushers. So when you look at EPA per play or whatever, the pressures from the edge are probably causing more problems, and sacks from the edge are causing more problems. But from a quarterback's perspective, I asked Nick Mullins about this one time.

I was like, what's the difference between edge and interior pressure? And he's like, edge pressure you can step out of, like you step up in the pocket, right? And that doesn't mean Miles Garrett won't kill you sometimes. But if, let's just say pressure though and not a sack, you can step up in the pocket away from edge pressure. There is no answer for interior pressure. No. And there are 50 edge rushers who are good. There are eight interior rushers who are good.

And so teams game plan the hell out of those defensive ends. And sometimes they still lose. But it's always part of every week's game plan is like, oh, this week we play Max Crosby. This week we play Miles Garrett. This week we play TJ Watt. And so they know how to deal with these players. They have plans for them. I don't know that there is a plan for an interior rusher of this talent.

The Vikings put in last year CJ Hamm on third down and long, and this was an interesting little wrinkle, but I mean, I liked it, of course. And he would block help the guards because they were sending so much pressure on the interior. That's where their weakness was. Very clever. Most teams are not putting their fullback in on third and 10 to block interior.

So it's just your guys versus our guys. And if you can win in that scenario, you crush them. And also, I mean, the run defense has been less than spectacular in recent years. I mean, I just think this is such a big need and probably the most underappreciated value position in the entire league. Yeah, and let's broaden this out a little bit. This is kind of like the inverse conversation of what we've had that I kind of borrowed it from you a few years ago. I kind of was thinking about it a lot that you said that you believed wide receiver was the second most valuable

position. I'm 100% of that belief, but then I also factor in, Oh, but there's also like a million awesome wide receivers. It's the inverse because like you said, there's just not a lot of quality interior pass rushers. You can get quality run stoppers,

third round, fourth round, fifth round, like even late into day three, big bodies that can eat blockers. That's not what I mean. I mean true difference makers on the inside. So for as much as someone listening or watching would say, oh, defensive tackle, like it's not that valuable of a position because the guys like Nick Bosa and Max Crosby and TJ Watt have garnered so much attention, and rightfully so, there's a lot of them. Every team has at least one stud outside rusher.

To be able to maybe get the first interior defensive lineman in the class and one that I truly believe will warrant a top 11 overall pick in this case, in Byron Murphy, it wouldn't be the best case scenario. That would be quarterback, obviously, and just picking the one that the GM and Kevin O'Connell liked the most. But that would be a good fallback option to say, look, it didn't work out.

Four quarterbacks went in front of us, but we got someone at maybe by the book, not the most valuable position, but one that is very scarce to find someone who can be that difference maker inside on the defensive line. Let me ask you one more question for this podcast. We'll do one more from Indy about, you know, more buzz that we'll pick up on tonight and

more dudes of what's going on. But the defensive linemen talk today, and I'm very curious about who might be available early in the second round where the Vikings are 42. If they are to draft quarterback in the first or even if they went to defensive lineman not crazy at all by by any means who intrigues you like who would you look at and say you know what if you're going second round you're looking for Brian Flores to mold someone into a beast take a look look at X, Y, or Z. Okay, there's three guys that I'll name here.

The first one, very unique, interesting, Braden Fiske from Florida State. Okay. Like six, he had a great senior bowl. He's a big senior bowl guy, and that's, again, I don't factor it in myself, but I realize I have to a little more in terms of when guys are going to be picked because they destroyed the senior,

destroyed the senior bowl practices and the game. He's interesting. And I say that because he's like, I forgot what his exact numbers were, but like six, five, just under two, he's like two 95. And he has like the shorted,

he has like 31 inch arms. So it's like, what the hell? But on film twitchy, he has all of those elements, not to the level of Byron Murphy, but Twitchy, the getoff is there, can sustain speed to the quarterback. A lot of times guys along the defensive line, they get out of their stance in a hurry and then

it just stalls. And it's just like, okay, it was just your burst and then that's not it. Fiske can get out of his stance in a hurry and then continue into the backfield. The pass rush moves are there. And I think because of his shorter arms and then and then continue into the backfield. The pass rush moves are there. And I think because of his shorter arms and that he's kind of a late bloomer, he was at Western Michigan and transferred to Florida State a little older. He's probably going to be available at 42. Michael Hall from Ohio State, to me, is like the Byron Murphy light in this class. That if you can't get Byron Murphy and you want that quote

unquote undersized interior pass rusher and I don't really even think at 290 you're undersized anymore Michael Hall from Ohio State watches film like a lot of Ohio State guys whether it's wide receiver or corner or defensive line very well coached the pass rush moves are there the first step quickness a lot of what I just said about F fiske is certainly there and then one other that i think will probably go in the first round but he he could be there in the early stages of the second darius robinson from missouri he's the other one similarly size a little bit lighter like 65 286. is he tweenish he's he's a little tweener which that was a phrase that was used way back like oh is he a three four outside linebacker or a four, three?

We don't really get that as much. And he, I think most people will have him as an edge, but he is like that. The, the scouting phrase, like he's the first guy off the bus. Like he is six, five to 86 with like 0% body fat.

Same. And yes, Matt looks very similar to Darius Robinson. If you wanted to bulk him up to like 295, 300, he can play inside. The arms, he's got vines for arms, not like Braden Fiske, who's got 31-inch arms. I don't remember what Robinson's exact measurements were, but 34, 35-inch arms. And the pass rush moves are there. The athleticism is there.

He's someone where Brian Flores, you said, plug him in and use him everywhere. That would be Darius Robinson, where, again, way crazier things have happened where it seems like he'll probably go late in the first, but if he was there at 38, 39, and they had to trade an extra six to move up a couple spots to get him, he would be really an interesting piece for Brian Flores to be able to mold up front on the defense. All right, here's what we'll do. Tomorrow, we'll talk about some more buzz.

Buzz. So you got to go out tonight. Okay. And then we'll talk about some more buzz buzz so you got to go out tonight okay and then we'll talk about some more dudes that the vikings should be keeping their eyes on in case of x y and z scenario cbs sports chris trapasso draft analyst and me so here we are indy we'll catch you next time football football