Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - PFF's Eric Eager plays a game of Vikings legend or myth

Episode Date: June 24, 2022

Matthew Coller and Pro Football Focus analyst Eric Eager talk about myths and legends. Is Teddy Bridgewater's Viking fan love deserved? How about the kicker curse? The idea that they could develop defensive linemen? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here in my sun porch with Eric Eager from Pro Football Focus, visiting Minnesota to see your parents. What's going on, Eric? How are you? Things are good. I can't wait to go to the Lynx game tonight. Hopefully, Tarassi plays so I can see her in person for the first time. But now we get to talk Vikings. I know it's not one of the fans only only fans uh episodes but you did crack open the the doctor died dr pepper uh so i think

everybody knows you're on your game face here yeah i saved the actual opening for only the fans only podcasts so everybody knows how important and special those episodes are. Did you ever think of thinking calling it only fans only? No, no. I mean, I think people get the joke, right? Yeah. Fans only. And Jonathan, who does social media, made a logo for the fans only podcast that looks like the only fans. And also it's just like, let's just call it like hot football talk.

You know, it's like only fans is hot versions of other things fans only hot football talk so uh speaking of which we are going to play a game on the show we've played many a game on the show but uh we were having a discussion off air and i thought this was perfect legend or myth okay so we're going to run through vikings things that are popular that are thought of well amongst the fan base and we are going to ask legend or myth when it comes to those things so i've got some names that i want to bring up with you you've got some names or general ideas and we'll ask legend or myth okay so do you want to start or do you want me to start? Let, let me start. Um, I actually think this is going to be a very, um, you know, especially this year where they have nine home games. Um, the COVID season kind of was not,

you know, great for them at home. Um, but, but historically they've been a great home team. Do you think that the vikings home field advantage it relative to other teams home field advantage is a legend or a myth that is a really good one i say legend i think it's real for us bank stadium however it has not been real in a while. I think it was real in 2019 and before that through 2016. But I also think that in recent years, it's been a myth. I mean, for one, there was no fans at all of 2020. So obviously that did not count. But last year, what we saw was a fan base that got so frustrated that it just didn't have the same juice and when it really struck me when aaron

rogers after the game unprompted said that he didn't have as much trouble hearing his signals or his players you know connecting with the signals because the stadium just wasn't as loud and i don't blame anybody at all for last year just not being into it and looking at that team saying this is not good enough this is not what we expected after 2020 missing the playoffs starting the season slow in 2021 and then all the drama that ensued between kirk cousins and mike zimmer like nobody was having a good time at that point and even though that game was actually a really good football game between vikings and packers if you can't get up for that one you know it's time to make a change that was one where when they lost to detroit on the road that was the easiest one

to say this is over but even though you won that game in really exciting fashion you could not yield a legitimate home field advantage because the crowd just didn't believe you and then the last game of the year was downright spooky like the place was full and there was no noise it was less than a pre-season game so i think that in 2016 you launched the place everybody's going to be crazy for every game 2017 your team is fantastic they're going to be through the roof and drew breeze somehow in the minneapolis miracle game overcoming that noise to bring them back in that game is some of the best quarterback play i've ever seen but on a weekly basis when the crowd is at its best

in u.s bank stadium you see teams make decisions that you do not understand that seem like maybe that just the opposition is flustered. You see quarterbacks getting protections wrong, misreading things, wide receivers and quarterbacks not on the same page. Some of that could be Mike Zimmer being good at his job. But when you look at the numbers, they were I ran this for last year when fans were returning. They were like 20th in sacks on the road since US Bank Stadium opened and like first at home. So I think that there is a very big difference, and that is absolutely a legend and not a myth.

Yeah, yeah. I think back to, you know, like the 19th. Like there have been years where they haven't lost at home. The 1998 Vikings didn't lose at home. The 1989 Vikings were a team that were 8-0 at home and 2-6 on the road. You know, they once went, I want to say, like they've gone years in their team's history, both not winning on the road and both not winning on grass, right? There was like a time in Mike Tysera when they went like two years and winning like two games on grass or something like that and so home field advantage is certainly a thing I do think though as we

so football has changed right like football this was one of the reasons the things I wanted to sort of promote instead of a 17 game season I want I just wanted an 18 game regular season with two buys and back in 1993 they tried this and it didn't work if teams didn't like it or whatever i think it would work now because we're so much less you know and i'm not a bangles fan but i'll go to a bunch of bangles games during the year and i'll have red zone on my phone or something like that because like the it's much more of a league now we have fantasy football we have betting and all that stuff where you're interested in a lot more than just your favorite team. And let's be honest.

I think the growth of your network and this podcast and I know that there are folks in Vikings Twitter that are certainly not very discerning. And there's a fraction of the fan base that isn't very smart. But the majority of the Vikings fan base is very smart and very attuned to these things. And so if the team's not performing, they're not showing up to US Bank Stadium and hooting and hollering for a team that's not competitive. And so I think the home field advantage will become a myth if the team can't muster it up. And last year, 5-3 at home.

5-3 is not good enough for a team at home um you know and they won't be five and three this year because they have nine home games but you know this team probably has to be what seven and two at home to be competitive this year like really competitive and and you know the the goods are there the the stadium is great the fan base uh cares a lot but they're gonna have to perform to that level for it to kind of snowball right um and the road schedule is a little dicey at times especially going to miami i think is always hard for teams and then going to buffalo in november josh allen's arm versus kirk cousin's arm a little bit of a gap there um and you know buffalo has one of the great home field advantages but it was the same deal it It's like when you're good, this will help you.

When the Buffalo bills in the early nineties had Jim Kelly, this would help them. Nobody wanted to go to Buffalo. The Oakland Raiders showed up there. Were they Los Angeles Raiders? They were the Los Angeles Raiders showed up there in what? 90 and just got B 51 to three. Like they did not want to be there.

But if your team is running out, JP Lossman or your coach is Greg Williams. You're just, it did not want to be there but if your team is running out jp lossman or your coach is greg williams you're just it's not going to matter because nobody's going to be into it and with this year at very least at the beginning of the season and this is why i kind of argued for it being okay to play the packers week one with a new coach and a new gm even though a lot of the other pieces are the same you get the full version of the crowd for opening day. Like that. Once you lose a couple of games and everybody like the shine comes off everybody, it's not

quite the same. But if you're playing the Packers week one, everybody's jacked up for this new era. And that is going to be probably right in the normal sound level for Packers Vikings games. Not quite to the playoff level or the first game that they played there, but, but, you know, pretty, pretty jacked up still. Once it goes downhill though, it's just another football stadium. And that's why that game and that,

and that's why the Packers are only favored by a point and a half in that game in week one. I think that the odds makers and the, and the batters are really attuned to the fact that this, this is a big swing for the Vikings. Like if they don't win that game i you know i'm not saying it's a must-win game obviously it's their best you know and and but much like 2020 like if you don't win that game you know it's it's downhill from there i think just because again i i do i wouldn't you know and i'm as pessimistic as

anybody but like i wouldn't blame any vikings fan for showing up to that game and thinking you know this is the start of something great and if it's not if it's if it's like the 2020 opener or something like that or if it's like you know you know that defense for green bay looks pretty good this year like let's say they lose you know 24 10 or something like that like and then they go to philly and you know they're underdogs in that game i i could see it going downhill really quickly especially given the fact that this team you know they're they're underdogs in that game i i could see it going downhill really quickly especially given the fact that this team you know they got they got to darius smith they got jordan hicks they got a draft class or whatever you know there there are there are some new pieces to this

team but there but this isn't a new that you know like the quarterback still kirk cousins you know so there's not a ton to be excited about uh aside from the new coach and the new general manager. All right. So legend or myth, let's talk about Teddy Bridgewater a little. Because Teddy Bridgewater is now the backup quarterback in Miami, has had a couple of starting opportunities, but has not taken his teams very far. Seven and seven, I think, with Denver last year. So your average type of journeyman quarterback season with a decent team carolina was a disaster obviously but um so i think what he's settled into now post injury returning as an nfl starter is a ryan fitzpatrick type who you can absolutely

win some games with if things go right but is not going to drive a whole lot of success however you still have the idea that teddy was on his way to being a franchise quarterback before his knee injury and whatever we see now is almost just like a heartwarming story but really we could never look at it and say oh this is what he would have become because of what that knee injury took from him legend or myth Teddy Bridgewater yeah Bridgewater three games under 500 since returning from his knee injury seven and seven last year with the Denver team he had the five and oh run obviously in New Orleans in 2019 but it was four and 11 uh for the Panthers um you know career high 18 touchdown passes last year uh career low seven interceptions uh yards per pass attempt in that 7.2 range so 7.3 yards an attempt in his career is above average you know

like he's actually been an efficient quarterback um we talked scott turner we both know him you know we raved about teddy right um you know zimmer loved Bridgewater as well uh this was also pre a time when quarterbacks were getting the max deal so he plays well in 2016 let's say that let's say they they repeat as division champions they go 11 and 5 or something they win a playoff game or two like I think it's a legend that if he would have played in 16, he's probably the franchise quarterback. I don't know, though. I'm firmly on the side of the economics of once you pay a guy who's certainly not elite, it's really hard to win. We see it with Stafford.

We see it with Derek Carr. We see it with Goff. We see it with Stafford. We see it with Derek Carr. We see it with Goff. We see it with guys like that. I think Bridgewater would have won something significant with the Vikings in 16 or 17. And ultimately, that would have been his legacy. So in that sense, it's a legend. But I think would he still be the Vikings quarterback now? If he was, I think that this team would still be in the situation it's in which is that you know and cousins is a better quarterback than than teddy i think you know when you add it all up on average i think teddy's intangibles are better but like they'd be in the same situation that they were in

i think that the difference is is if you had bridgewater in 16 and 17 you might have cashed in a little bit more of those chips whereas the 16 and 17 vikings kind of came away with nothing yeah that that to me is the legend the thing with 17 is there's no question that teddy's a better quarterback than case keenum right and who knows if aaron rogers gets hurt yada yada yada right but look at the roster though even if rogers doesn't get hurt i think you win the division anyway well because the roster was so good. The 2015 draft class was all on rookie contracts. And so they had those guys, but also even if they had paid Teddy,

he still would have been in the early part that's inexpensive of his contract extension. So they wouldn't have had to lose anybody. In fact, because Sam Bradford was expensive that year, they might have had money to spend on more people well I think that you know the the real weakness of the team in 14 and 15 were was wide receiver and offensive line I think without Bradford's contract you probably can get a Mitchell Schwartz right Mitchell Schwartz was I believe 2015 well no Mitchell Schwartz went on

the Chiefs in 15, I want to say. But you get somebody like that. You get the top end of the deal right tackle, right? Phil Lodehold tore his Achilles in the preseason of 2015, so that's where you had to go with TJ Clemmings, and that was a mess. Then you got Andre Smith, and you went about, and you bought into Matt Khalil a little bit when that probably wasn't. I think in 16, you probably, you know, without, you know, 16, you had to go with Bradford.

17, you had Riley Reif. But you probably could have done even better on the right side of the line than you did if you didn't have Bradford's contract and I think also like there's a maturation aspect of Bridgewater where he was absolutely great in 15 of dealing with that pressure and not you know taking bad sacks he did have a couple fumbles that weren't great at the end of games but you know he also probably got would have gotten better at avoiding pressure and stuff like that because we do know that Teddy you know was was a better than the sum of the parts quarterback whereas the current quarterback for the Vikings is more of a as good as the sum of the parts quarterback. Whereas the current quarterback for the Vikings is more of a, as good as the sum of the parts,

if not less, right. Because, you know, you put up the great statistics, but then you have stuff like you're the worst team in terms of a three and outs. You're a middle of the pack team in terms of points scored.

The Bridgewater era Vikings were like a middle of the pack team in terms of points scored. And Teddy Bridgewater stats were anemic relative than to what we're seeing right now with Kirk Cousins. So you could have possibly seen a bigger force multiplier even. And there's questions about what the 2016 season would have looked like if you weren't constantly under this barrage of having to chase with Bradford and all of the bad habits that Norv Turner got into

and then subsequently Pat Shermer got into. I think it's a legend that the Vikings' outcomes would have been better. Where would they be now? I think that they'd be in a disappointing place now because there's just limitations to what a quarterback of that caliber can do on veteran money, as we've seen even with the Vikings. But I do think the 16 and 17 teams would have been way more successful yeah I was having a conversation with um a listener just sort of DMing back and forth about

Teddy and was like what could he have become and like an Alex Smith uh like a Jimmy Garoppolo type level quarterback yeah I said Philip Rivers but that's a little aggressive. Like Phillip Rivers is a Hall of Famer, but had some of the same tendencies, like throwing those fluttering balls that somehow end up in the receiver's hands. The leadership element, I think, would have guided them through 16. Because as it was coming apart,

it was really not the talent of the team as much as it was Mike Zimmer panicking when they started to lose games, insulting the offensive line, like not having... Calling the team as much as it was Mike Zimmer panicking when they started to lose games, insulting the offensive line, like not having the team soft. Yes. Not having a guy who was there to sort of smooth things over the locker room. And Sam Bradford arrived at the start of the season. He wasn't going to lead that team. He was kind of just there. And then he became their leader throughout the 17 offseason and into the 17 season but with the 2017 roster 18 is very similar 19 is very similar teddy's going to be more

expensive at that point though you're going to lose some people uh it probably does go the same way where that's your window with teddy it's just the thing is about 17 can Can you take a Jimmy Garoppolo type over a Case Keenum type and get them farther than he did or win that playoff game in Philly? Maybe. Maybe. I would say maybe. But we would look at Teddy as, wow, they really got their franchise quarterback. That's why I say the legend would be true.

The myth is when you take it any farther than that. If you're like, oh, he's going to be a Hall of Famer, and that kind of thing. Like anything beyond, oh, he would have been one of the best quarterbacks in the league and stuff like that. Of course, that's not true. But rookie quarterback contract slash being relatively cheap with a stacked roster and a coach who truly believed in him and truly loved him in a locker room the same way. That is not a myth. I've heard it from enough people inside a locker room the same way that is not a myth i've heard

it from enough people inside the locker room all the leadership stuff it's all real what he meant to people so that is not uh a myth and that's why i think alex smith is probably the right bar yeah um because you know you think about kansas city and like i mean one of the first things that said when he won a super bowl was hey i, I want to thank Alex Smith for how much he took me under his wing and how hard it was for Kansas City to move on from Alex Smith because the locker room really, you know, you add those limitations and obviously Teddy does as well. But, you know, ultimately, like, you know, and I think the interesting thing was, I think the interesting counterfactual is,

would Teddy's deficiencies have caused the Vikings to go on tilt the same way that Kirk Cousins' deficiencies have caused them to go on tilt, right? Because the Vikings, like, look, and people can say whatever they want about the salary cap or whether it's fake or whatever. The Vikings have not signed one mid-level, let alone premier free agent on the offensive side of the ball since Kirk Cousins signed with the team, right? And so instead of going out and getting a real NFL center, you had to use a premium position to draft him because they're cheap,

but obviously that doesn't work out. You constantly have to make bets like Garrett Bradbury because you can't make bets like alex mack or you can't make bets like you know like guys like that because of your your issue and and kirk cousins issues you wrote about the interior pressure you wrote about you know you know the fact that you need to kind of have a baby you know you know offense with play action and stuff like that which means you have to have a good defense which is you know part of like why they drafted so much on defense and failed over the last you know, offense with play action and stuff like that, which means you have to have a good defense, which is, you know, part of like why they drafted so much on defense and failed over the last, you know,

like the question would have been, were the known issues with Bridgewater's ability such that the Vikings could have avoided that with, with him. I, my guess is probably not as much as, as a Teddy apologist like me would like to think, but maybe. I mean, maybe interior pressure wouldn't mess Teddy up as much as it does Kirk.

Well, I think that what would have happened is taking relatively the same plan and maybe ending up with a lot of the same outcomes. You know, Teddy would have played better with Thielen and Diggs. They were never who they were. They were on the team, but they weren't who they were in 2015. Pat Shermer was a great offensive coordinator for the Vikings. Norv Turner obviously was not. The offensive line vastly improved

for that one year of 2017. So those advantages existed. But the same problems, I think, would have cropped up. 2018 is when they had to pay that 2015 draft class. And then, you know, you lose some key players

when you want to bring in more on defense to help yourself out to not repeat the issue maybe you lose an offensive coordinator and bring in one that doesn't work out like they did with defilippo and whatever the one thing you could have seen that would have been maybe a little different is just somebody to weather some of those storms like i think that the talent issues would have been the same that teddy bridgewater was not going to take a team that's nine and seven talent and make them a 12 win team just not going to happen but as things melt down and get troublesome throughout a year he was a guiding sort of force whereas they have not had that and maybe that maybe even if you miss the playoffs a year or

two you're saying well at least we still have our quarterback and he hasn't been as good but he's our guy and you know we'll rebuild it around him but one of the things that is i think a cause of tension all the time is that cousins is always in his quote like final years of like yeah he's been in his final years of viking now three years running and it's like that's always a cause of like is this the final year or will that you know they're making a decision on cousins and if you're locked into that guy and no one questions it you could trade tyreek hill like there you know there's always this we gotta win we can't reset we can't rebuild but if you're the chiefs and you know who your quarterback is and you have no debate about it you can have a reset season and no one's going oh man i gotta find a new qb i mean patrick mahomes had had at one point the richest contract in the history of the league and

they were able to sign joe tooney to a 16 million dollar per year deal to play guard and trade a first round pick for orlando brown because when your deal is 10 years long you can move it around right right the Chiefs this year famously traded Tyreek Hill and have not done the sort of like hey convert a convert the base salary to signing bonus spread it out thing on Mahomes they're paying Mahomes the full thing this year which again helps like the roster flexibility certainly certainly matters and and I bring this back to Derek Carr who I think is very comparable to Cousins. They signed Carr to the long-term deal. And eventually, by the time they got to this end of it, they go 8-8.

They go 10-7. And everybody's like, well, Carr's actually a good value. Because eventually, that deal ends up being a good value because the salary cap goes up. And that was even with the global pandemic right cousins being on all these little three-year deals means that he's always top of market right and you know and now they've done some things with void years and stuff but that's 12 and a half million dollars two years from now that they got to pay no matter what and that leaves them with very low flexibility like i said zadarius like the the biggest free agent signing this team has made since cousins has been here and cousins has been here for a while now you i mean you're you have

the gray hair i have the gray hair to show for it uh cousins has been here for a while and the biggest free agent signing they've they've had outside free agent signing is either depending upon how you measure it dalvin tomlinson at 11 million a year michael pierce at 27 million overall and i guess if you squint zadarius smith's deal yeah that's not a real and that's not a real deal right they have not had like a a free agent signing on the offensive side of the ball since 2018 that was a market level deal let it not even a like a mid-tier deal i'd even say it's like josh klein it's those kind of it's the chris reeds and i'm sorry but like every you can say that all other teams with great quarterbacks have to deal with this and they don't like they don't

no they don't and another part of it too and then i'll let you throw another one at me is just that the way that kirk has handled it is financially and from a business perspective unbelievably hall of fame worthy for him unbelievably impressive but what i noticed was suddenly the team went from 2017 to 2018 a lot of guys signed reasonable contracts stefan diggs eric hendricks daniel hunter Hunter. They all said, guys, we got to stay. We got to sign these contracts. Trying to win. Right.

And then as soon as they went 8-7-1 and missed the playoffs, it was got to get mine. Got to get mine from everybody except for Daniil Hunter, who just needs a new agent or whatever. But like everybody else. How about Delvin Cook holding them hostage all the way through the very, to the very end of the off season, the day before the year starts. And then he finally gets his new contract. Kyle Rudolph went on record and said, teams want to trade for me.

And I'm fine with that. Like that was a mentality that only started to exist after it was like, well, that guy got his, I'm getting mine. And that's not to like, like, don't take that as,

Oh, you blame Kirk for everything, but it's how delicate things can shift and when we talk about like if teddy bridgewater had signed a seven-year contract or something you're probably not getting that you're probably just getting a different mentality or it's just the way the league works where teams without elite quarterbacks just sort of have ebbs and flows yeah exactly exactly right like when you think about the patriots you think about you know obviously trading richard seymour for a first round pick like the eve of the season you know you trade deon branch for a first round pick and the eve of the season that guy was he was super bowl mvp the previous year yep um

trent brown is your left tackle he's amazing the raiders signed him for a bunch of money you replace him you You're fine. He comes back, right? Kyle Van Nooye leaves, comes back, leaves, comes back. Jamie Collins. Jamie Collins. You trade him in the middle. Six-time Patriot.

You want a contract so bad they trade you to Cleveland on the 0-16 train. He comes back twice, actually, right? And you look with Kansas City, right? And I'm fairly close with people in the Chiefs organization. It's taught you know it's orlando brown it's like does orlando brown want to play ball and and i think and i think this team two or three years ago would have paid orlando brown a market deal and now it's like look no you we've hosted four straight afc title games you it is a privilege to play here if you don't want to play here we'll find a way out of here right pat you know when i was early on at pff neil hornsby uh as he wants to do says the data is the data and chris are the

stars for these for these for these elite teams it's tom brady's a star and the patriots are the star i don't need you you need us you need us right exactly and they have not had that and there are very few teams that have it yeah and we're not yeah minnesota is not unique minnesota is not a singular point and being like oh this team stinks and this like this is a very like common common thing to to to happen in the nfl i just think k Cousins' ability, and God bless him, to finesse the contracts in such a way that it's always this way is a fairly interesting mark for him. Okay, well, your next myth or legend? Okay, and this is where I came up with this because i was watching a roast uh from 2000 i was actually watching the roast of charlie sheen which i think came out in 2010 and uh the great

the late patrice o'neill uh talked about a fellow comedian as a legend but when he says legend he means a myth and and my immediate thought here and i want to get your opinion on it okay former vikings defensive line coach andre patterson legend or myth so this is an interesting one because i think that we are exposed through the internet to some real super fans and what i mean by that is i don't mean super fans as in you listen to the show you're interested in the team you love good discussions about football i mean like really obsessive about you mean 49ers fans who wanted to hang me because i had kyle shanahan fourth in my play caller ranking this is what i mean Yes. What did I hear the other day? Somebody tweeted out, like, does your beat reporter like your team? And then, like, every fan base was like, oh, local reporters hate arts.

Like, every fan base. Yeah, yeah. You know, so there you go. So it's not unique. It's just that some of the super fans would take minute things and make them into a huge thing so what i mean is like rob brzezinski is very good his job he's super well respected like fans don't usually know the cap guy they usually don't tweet about the cap guy like that's unusual and also rob brzezinski is working within the same constrictions of the cap as every other cap guy

in the league so like he is a vital part of this organization but i know that rob brzezinski himself does not love seeing like oh man we got this guy and he's a cap genius and he'll fix everything like he's like no no no i still have to like do the job like everybody else stop things like that like when a fourth string quarterback suddenly becomes hyped up and ends up in the usfl and throws more interceptions and touchdowns in the usfl these type of super fan well i respect the commitment to the bit are just looking at things and saying they're the best like like brick from uh anchorman like are you just saying you love lamp are you just saying you love sloater because it's a thing with a viking thing stamped on it with like indiscriminately loving everything that moves that has a viking on it uh or using it to fight people online okay there is some of that with andre patterson where everything that patterson ever did

every player he was responsible for drafting the players who became very good were used as evidence that the vikings had this man with defensive line superpowers who could bring in somebody and mold them like a ball of clay and they would come out a Daniil Hunter and the reality of football and all sports is that's just not the case like no person is going to take a bunch of third round draft picks and turn them all into Daniil Hunter it is not possible I have a great deal of respect for Andre Patterson. I think that he knows defensive line play as well as anybody you will ever meet in your life. He is a super, super guy to talk to. He has amazing stories. This guy coached the Cowboys.

He coached John Randall. His stories are incredible to listen to for someone who's been a football lifer. I mean, he's just a lot of fun to be around and to talk to on a weekly basis. It was a pleasure. And, you know, he would give you a lot of insight into stuff that you'd ask him questions and he would really be willing to explain to you how these things work. Um, so I respect Andre Patterson as a defensive line coach. I just think that some people on the internet like to try to boost up everything that exists to the point where it is it that it is more myth than legend like you're not making dj want them good it is not happening

you weren't making jaleel johnson good janarius robinson right and the problem is that the previous regime believed the myth they believed if andre patterson liked the guy in the draft that guy was going to become the next hunter and they would say it and it was totally unfair to those players like those guys oh jalen holmes well he likes the next hunter he's tall he didn't have any sacks in college like guys stop like even part of the garrett bradbury uh lore was that andre patterson was watching christian wilkins who's a great player by the way yeah and he said man this garrett bradbury uh lore was that andre patterson was watching christian wilkins who's a great player by the way yeah and he said man this garrett bradbury handled the christian wilkins and the

vikings were like really awesome let's draft him like whoa guys like they believed their own mythology when it came to him and i think they should have looked at it much more as if you want elite pass rushers you have to draft them high and if you don't you should get them in free agency uh to fill out those players just because you got everson and daniel does not mean you were going to get the rest but as far as the man andre patterson he was one of their leaders of their um their coalition of players yeah that worked with the money given by the wilfs to distribute it in the community like he was really great for the organization and really beloved for for the right reasons so i don't want to say like total myth total fraud it's not a fraud he's just he's just not anything that any other defensive line coach is like no one has this ability to take bad draft picks and make them into

daniel hunters repeatedly you usually just kind of luck into that. Yeah, I mean, my biggest issue is, you know, I've brought up, you know, every, it seems like every single draft, you know, when they take, I mean, like this team has never in the Zimmer era taken a defensive lineman higher than the third round. Right. And, you know, Scott Cricht crichton you know he was a bust daniel hunter wasn't a bust uh everson griffin like like look i think it's part legend part

myth i think the legend is everson griffin was a backup defensive lineman who had shown some promise eight sacks in 2012 five in 2013 and instead of re-signing jared allen they went four five years 40 million dollars with evers Everson Griffin and Everson Griffin turned out. And, you know, you could say he was already good, but no, he got better under, under Zimmer and Patterson. That's, that's, you know, to be understood. Um, Danelle Hunter obviously is a hit Danelle Hunter though, until recent seasons was always better when Everson Griffin was on the field. I think, you know, Hunter's an interesting one where he's never been that fast getting off the ball.

If you look at the NGS data, he's always been a compliment. He's not a compliment. He's always been on a pair. And I always wonder, okay, when he's not in one, and if Z'Darrius Smith, God willing, doesn't get hurt this year, he'll still be in a pair. But if he's not on a pair how effective is he going to be The problem was as you said They believed in their own myth

And this is where I come back to Vikings fans Where I'm saying okay Last year I was told That he elevated players Above and beyond what they were supposed to be And then this year He's gone and I'm not hearing anybody bake into their projections of the vikings the fact that andre patterson's gone and i and i look and hunter's coming off

of an injury uh no michael pierce harrison uh you know he's never been like that good of a pass rusher phillips yeah harrison phillips and tomlinson is an okay pass rusher Armand Watts is nothing special Wanham had eight sacks but a bad pff grade which is mostly just getting to play Justin Fields and Zedarius Smith is not as good as prime Everson Griffin let's be honest and yet I'm hearing how scary this defensive line could be and I'm wondering okay well we're all the andre patterson discussions back in the day myth um so yeah i i think you know they're i think the vikings were i think i think what he did with with hunter and griffin is real i think the vikings extrapolating from that created a myth yeah and i also think that the way that andre patterson connected with his players was special

it's not insanely unique to have a position coach matter a lot to the players that he coaches kennedy palomalu was very similar with george stewart with wide receivers right carter and moss and jerry rice and terrell owens and and I think for Everson Griffin specifically, that was really big. Because Everson Griffin was kind of on the edge. Is he going to hang on and be a great player? Because peak Everson Griffin is one of the best players I've ever covered. I mean, just unstoppable force. But it was always lurking the demons that he had to deal with throughout

his career and i feel like having that figure there with andre patterson who connected so well with those players like that matters uh it's just that the man cannot connect so perfectly well that janarius robinson and i shouldn't use him because he hasn't played yet but like you know jalen holmes is good. Like, it's not happening. Jalen Holmes is a horrible NFL player. And there's no changing that. Who is the guy? Jaleel Johnson was terrible.

Just awful. Like, you're not changing the fact that the guy ran like a 5-3 and had like no ability to stop the middle. Even to this point, though, they signed Corey Wooten in 2014 to be the backup defensive end behind Robison. And the way robison didn't get better like robison like peaked under frazier like he and so like that that's another example where we don't talk about that but he wasn't that good after zimmer took over um but like you had cory wooten and that was the last time they spent free agent dollars on a defensive. They had Dayton Jones in their former first-round pick.

He didn't even make it. And they went out of their way to get the Stephen Weatherlies, the Afani Adetabos, and those guys. And, like, they were – Vikings fans were like, oh, it's great to have a seventh-round pick stick. Like, that shows how great Patterson is. Like, well, no, these seventh-round picks didn't have anybody to beat out precisely because of this approach. Like they didn't beat out like guys with great pedigree.

Right. Because, you know, they were they there was a spot on the team for a low pedigree player precisely because they thought that that Patterson could make a low pedigree player into a player. And they and they and none of them really did. If Anabo had his moments, but like for the most part, Weatherly and he were both not very good and then and then they were the bright spots uh the other guys were as we said down you know downright kind of awful so it's it's interesting and again i'm just trying to project into this year it's like well either andre patterson was this big effect and they're going to downgrade this year because everson was wonderful last year and so was hunter when they were healthy so either it's to downgrade this year because Everson was wonderful last year, and so was Hunter when they were healthy.

So either it's a downgrade over the first half of last year because the players aren't better and the coach is gone, or the whole thing was a sham. And that, to me, I think it's somewhere in between. I actually think we're overrating what the Vikings' pass rush could be this year. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, the Vikings' passher this year rests essentially on one man's health because having one pass rusher in Daniil Hunter will not make any team good enough.

I mean, you think about last year they got 51 sacks. Now they had to do a lot of blitzing to get 51 sacks. But how many are you going to get if Zedaria Smith plays eight games? And high sack defenses are not necessarily great defenses i mean right they did not have a good pressure rate at all yeah i mean like once those guys went down but even then not having any interior rushers this is their art you know the argument for trying to get sue who's pretty washed but like at least somebody who could rush up the middle right uh but in these previous years really since they lost tom johnson and linval

joseph like they could not get after the passer in the middle and they were you know talking about well they fill these gaps for whatever this and that guy but but having an interior rusher like a donald or chris jones or a cam hayward it's just a complete game changer well and that's that comes back to the original discussion which is when your quarterback makes that much money and there's no flexibility in his contract, like no real flexibility in his contract, instead of signing real – like instead of trading for a real player like Leonard Williams,

you're signing Dalvin Tomlinson, the guy that plays next to him and is not quite as good. Like that is the whole thing. Like when you pay your quarterback that much money, you're not getting the cream of the crop players that can transcend. You're getting guys who you hope. And to Patterson's credit, that was what Linville Joseph was. And he became the most dominant nose tackle in football.

So it's not that that can't happen. It's just the gamble you're making. And by the way, when they signed Joseph in 14, he didn't become that player until like middle of 15 16 17 but that was the time horizon for that team the time horizon for this team when the quarterback is making what he's making is this year damn it and that to me is a tough one you know to to squeeze there okay let me ask you this legend or myth vikings kickers is it just a legend and i don't mean in a good way but a legend nonetheless yeah or is it mythology that one

franchise could have cursed kickers i think our mutual friend a professor of math at saint thomas eric rowden had actually did this research and I actually think the myth is the other way around, that other kickers against the Vikings don't miss. No, that was true. Eric found it was true. That's what I'm saying. The legend is that I think, so to turn this around, the legend isn't that Vikings kickers are bad. I think it's Vikings kickers are bad because they've played a dome since 1982.

Other teams' kickers have mostly done a good job against them. I remember Mason Crosby missed a field goal in 08 when they finally beat the Packers for the first time with Childress. They've had some luck, right? But kickers against the Vikings have been, like, historically good. I can't cite the numbers. And that makes what Vikings kickers have done look bad by comparison um but you you add up the you add it up though I you know I think um you know Cox was a great kicker for them back

in the day um Fuad Ravez so like the funniest thing is in Vikings history Fuad Ravez set the record for the most consecutive field goals he he hit I believe 29 in a row john carney was the one that he he surpassed i was actually at the game a sunday night football game uh nfl on tnt fruit of the loom halftime show game when he finally missed and i was in such bad seats i had to look at the guy next to me i'm like what happened he goes flawed missed one i'm like it was like he had like 32 consecutive kicks um they go from him to gary anderson who of course set the set the record again and had a season of perfect kicking of course ended in the nfc title game um they had morton anderson his hall of famer um then they went into ryan longwell who was fantastic like

i i think of the the game where adrian peterson uh his coming out party we rushed for like 270 yards like ryan longwell hit a 55 yarderer into the wind against Chicago to win that game. Like, Ryan Longwell was nails. And then Blair Walsh, like, we talk about Blair Walsh. You know, of course it sucks that he was terrible in 15 and 16 and stuff. That 2012 Vikings team doesn't make the playoffs if Walsh doesn't go, what, 12 for 12 from beyond 50? Yeah, so here, let me let me say what

i think that the legend is i mean the legend is that all these kickers were good and then just had these unbelievable meltdowns like i mean gary anderson is just the tip of the iceberg but i mean even like even there's a like remote connection of ryan longwell not getting to make the kick in 2009 but like you have even as recent as dan ba Bailey is one of the best kickers in the NFL, not only just in the league, but in league history. He joins the Vikings, kicks great for two years, and then forgets how to swing his leg. Against Tampa, right?

Like he melts down in the Tampa Bay. Right. And I don't know if they win that game with a bunch of field goals, maybe try scoring touchdowns. But like this is the crazy thing. Blair Walsh and mike prefer told me this directly i asked i asked mike for once do you believe in the curse of the kickers with the vikings and he was going through and ranting about blair walsh and said i am not kidding not making this up that blair walsh was very interested in his physique and lost weight purposefully and lost power because of it and that was what threw him off for like the longer field goals

and stuff because remember he went to seattle and missed like a 40 something yard or short and then seattle cut him and he's never kicked again so prefer believed that it wasn't necessarily a myth it was one bad kick probably got in his head, but also that he wanted to be really buff, really slender for whatever reason. And if you look at his Instagram, this is sort of backed up. He cares a lot about it. I mean, that is the crazy part,

that you literally lost a great kicker to his own attractiveness. Yeah. And a 27-yard kick, which is almost impossible to miss for someone who's good. And even Ravez, I think his last year missed 11 kicks and hurt his foot and never kicked again. Yeah, I think the legend is that these guys, right, they fall from grace. It's not like a kicker joins the Vikings and just absolutely sucks. I know they had Scott miss and siss in in one year which was a pretty good one or kicker slash punter cory vedvik yeah cory vedvik was another one you know really good trade by uh by spielman there hopefully he talks about it on the podcast tour um the yeah the the one that the gary the the

famous one and this is where i will back in our friend Nate Tice's dad, Mike. You see him on NFL Films. So they brought Doug Bryan in one year, and you were probably living in Buffalo in this one. The Vikings lose week one in 2002, kind of handily to the Bears in Champaign because they were playing. They come back, and it was a really good game between Buffalo and Minnesota where the Vikings scored a ton of touchdowns as moss duane bates derrick alexander and doug bryan misses two extra points 220 yard extra points and they're on on nfl uh films it's uh it's tice tice walking by one assistance he's like bleep it, sign Gary this week. And it's Gary Anderson, of course.

And later on in that season, so the Vikings started 3-10, and they won a game in New Orleans. And then in week 16, Chris Carter and the Dolphins came back, came here, and they had a 53-yard field goal. And at that point, Gary was not good enough to kick those long field goals. And there was a clip of Chris Carter on the sideline saying he can't kick it that far and Gary I want to say from 53 to win the game hit the crossbar and like went over a similar to like Justin Tucker from 66 yards yeah um so there have been a lot of like just funny kicker

incidents I the one the one to me the other one that i find interesting was the one year that if you look back on it paul edinger uh when the vikings in tice's last year went nine and seven i think edinger was something like five of seven from 50 plus and hit a bunch of game winners and was something like eight of 15 from 30 and 39 like he could not hit a mid-range field goal to save his life so like it it's a fun legend. But I'll go I'll go legend with that one. You know, I think part of it, too, is and then let's see. I don't know who's there.

Oh, you're you ask me. You ask me one more and then we'll wrap up. But I think part of it is that there have been so many Viking seasons that are on the edge. Like historically. Yes. They're just always relevant. Because, I mean, look, how many times did the Cleveland Browns have kicker meltdowns? Who cares? No one cares.

But you certainly notice when you get to NFC Championship games or when you're fighting for the division every year, like it must have been 2020 where uh dan bailey melted down like you notice when your team is in playoff races and things like that and has high expectations and then kickers blow it they've also never had quarterbacks to score touchdowns instead of field goals except for a handful i mean even when they brought warren moon and that was the year that rave is like made the pro bowl because he had to make so many red zone field goals right because they couldn't convert even with a Hall of Fame QB.

Okay. Here's the last one. And I think this is a little bit. This is going to pertain, I think, to this season. The strength of the Vikings roster as it pertains to 2022. So Kendricks, Cook. Oh, sure. Thielen. The good good veteran the good veterans we're gonna look back on this is it legend or myth as far as they're concerned because i i

obviously have my opinion i want to see what yours is so i think that every one of them should be fine, as in should be similar versions that they've been the last year or two, which is not what their peak versions were. The peak of Adam Thielen is a top five to seven receiver in the league. It's a two-year peak, but it's a fact. I mean, he was that good. All pro Eric Hendricks in 2018, 19, 2019. My gosh. Like the guy was running down people sideline to sideline.

He also had Linval Joseph who made a big deal for him. And once he didn't have Linval Joseph, even with other fat guys, it wasn't the same. I think there was great chemistry there. And also Joseph was better than someone like Delvin Tomlinson. So I don't think that Eric Hendricks is going to be much different than he was last year. He's still really good. I mean, you ran the numbers on not jumping up in the play on play action.

He's tremendous at that. He is a very good coverage linebacker, great instincts, great leadership, but he's not going to be a guy who is making all pro probably because that's just the facts in the history of linebackers in the NFL. It's like Patrick Peterson. He was okay last year, but he was not Patrick Peterson from 2013. And the same goes for Delvin cook. Like I think you can count on maybe four and a half yards of carry from Delvin Cook, not five. 4.3, like something really good, but not amazing. And I think that it's hard for fans sometimes to do this calculation because you have such a high opinion of the player. But it's like in baseball, when a guy gets to that age 34 season you just have to start being real

with yourself that they're probably not going to keep hitting 300 like they did in their peak that at some point it's going to drift and a lot of times what players like this offer is a great boost to a great team so if you're terence newman and you're in the twilight and you're playing for a great defense you're great because you just have to do your job and with what you have left if you're asking patrick peterson to be an island corner at this age or if you're asking adam phelan to be number one wide receiver which they're not but if they were or if you're asking delvin cook to drive the offense which i think they're not yeah i mean i think you're going to end up being disappointed so when you factor in what these guys are worth and the overall strength

if you took the peaks of all of them this is an 11 win team but it's not that's that's i think the biggest thing when i when i and and this is where i was getting to with the andre patterson thing as well you know because i think you know analytics and um data they're all about setting realistic expectations and i think i i think i said this on your show thielen was like a two yards per route run guy which anything above like 1.9 two yards you're a superstar and you know and I think when we look back at Thielen we say that's a superstar wide receiver that's a ring of honor Vikings player he had a lot of touchdowns last two years but last season he was at like 1.75 yards per route run. Or maybe it was 1.5.

I can't remember. But it was a significant drop. I have the numbers in front of me for Cook. So last year, so Dalvin Cook's yards per touch. So you take catches. You take rushes and targets. 5.2 in his rookie year. 5.3 his second year.

5.5 his 2019 year. And then 2020, 5.4. Last year, 4.9. So every time the then in 2020, 5.4. Last year, 4.9. So every time the Vikings decided to give the ball to Dalvin Cook, it was a half a yard less effective last year. Again, I think when it's all said and done, Dalvin Cook, Eric Hendricks, Adam Thielen, Donnell Hunter possibly, Patrick Peterson, although not for the Vikings, Hendricks, Adam Thielen, Danell Hunter, possibly.

Patrick Peterson, although not for the Vikings. Harrison Smith is another one. Now, there's not a ton of statistical evidence that Harrison Smith is falling off. That's the one I won't bring up, but all of those guys are... And that's how tough it is to be a Vikings fan. You think about all of these teams have had five or six guys that are Ring of Honor worthy. And they never win anything. But all of those guys, their superstardom is a legend. The application to the 2022 season, I think, is a myth.

And that's a tough pill to swallow because I know the Vikings specifically are literally banking on it. Yep. No, that's right. And that's, that is the bet they made is that those guys, half of them or more will play like peak versions of themselves.

And that's a hard thing to rely upon. Um, real quick before we wrap the most underappreciated legend i got i got i got one if you don't if you want to say yeah i think you might have the same as me um so i'll go with two jake reed okay i think jake reed for 1000 yard seasons before he was a starter he was an amazing special teams player uh stepped aside for randy moss continued to produce as the number three receiver just a good human from what it all sounds like a guy from an hbcu school there's an absolute great all-time viking and then and i've

been watching a lot of old vikings games because there was a new youtube channel i found that had like way more games than i thought so i've been watching. And this guy is a three-time pro bowler, Carl Lee, cornerback. He was the starting left corner on three teams for the Vikings that were ranked number one overall in yards allowed, three number one overall defenses. So Carl Lee to me, if you were going to pick Jake Reed, I would have said Carl Lee. I would go Antoine Winfield Jr., I think, or I'm sorry senior senior uh my bad antoine winfield senior throughout the league

here i think everybody knows but throughout the league i don't think he's talked about in the same way and honestly if pff was around when he was playing and got the grades he would have gotten at his prime he'd be a hall of famer i think he was something like a half a win player in 2012 which ended up the it's interesting right because 2012 so winfield was mostly an outside corner and then in 20 2009 he got he broke his foot and they had uh carl payma playing outside corner uh which was pretty funny and he was struggling they brought him back and his foot was not well. And so they had to play him inside and play Benny Sapp on the outside during the NFC title game.

And then Cedric Griffin tore his knee up, and that was the whole Asher Allen final drive thing. But he got to 2012, and by that time he had really – there was a Tuesday night game against Philly where he had a bunch of sacks off the edge playing nickel and stuff. And then after 2012 they had to cut him because they didn't have enough money to sign phil load holds and he went to seattle doesn't make the team you know does you know they don't bring him back i think that

that was like that was the end of the leslie frazier era in my opinion was having to get rid of uh antoine moonfield so that's a really. A very, a very good blast from the past. Famously, he was going to sign with the New York Jets and Mike Tice did not let him get on the jet to New York. So that was a good move by Mr. Tice. I only have one regret is not making a song for it. Legend or myth. We'll see. We'll see how next year goes goes there are many more legend or myth conversations to be had thank you all for listening to this epic podcast listen to the pff forecast with eric eager and we will talk to you all next time