Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - PFF's expected return for Danielle Hunter is underwhelming

Episode Date: October 20, 2023

Matthew Coller and Manny Hill talk about PFF's suggested trade for Danielle Hunter and whether fans should prepare for disappointment in the trade market or if the Vikings should just keep Hunter if the deals aren't good enough. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here along with Manny Hill. Once again, hopefully you are watching Derek Carr shine as the wonderful off-season signing that he was in New Orleans and listening to us talk ball again. As usual, these things can change from how I opened the show talking about Thursday night football. But woof, not looking good. I mean, Manny, can you think of any time? And I could be wrong here.

And there's a lot of history. Any time that a team signed a quarterback that was kind of middling that their team let him go and it didn't work out. No, I'm just kidding. But I mean, when is it didn't work out no i'm just kidding but i mean when has it ever actually worked out when has it ever worked out that a team signed another middling quarterback that another team let go and then it was just fantastic i mean maybe the closest thing we have to that is ryan tannahill and they did win the afc with Ryan Tannehill as their quarterback. So I shouldn't treat his time in Tennessee as being like bad because he did a really good job the first couple of seasons.

But just historically, this Derek Carr thing, I don't know. I just it was like, could we have not seen this coming that their offense wouldn't suddenly be incredible once they added Derek Carr, who's basically just Andy Dalton, who you had last year? Yeah. I mean, Andy Dalton's a great, great comparison because it's just, you know, it's, it's, it's frustrating because you watch guys like Derek Carr, like Andy Dalton, you know, I think to a degree Kirk Cousins too, where you just feel like, okay, well, they're good. They're pretty good. The numbers are pretty good.

But, like, why isn't the team winning? Like, why aren't they winning more? You know what I mean? And it's why it's so hard, I think, to find, you know, the elite quarterbacks in this league because the really great ones are just always going to drive winning no matter what you do, no matter who they lose out of their lineup,

no matter who they trade away, no matter what coordinator changes out and they get a new one, that sort of thing. The elite ones are always just going to drive winning. It's why the Chiefs are still as good as they are with Patrick Mahomes, even though they traded Tyreek Hill two years ago and they've had some injuries, you know, this year and their overall receiving core this year is just kind of mid. It's because the quarterback is great. He's outstanding. But if you have just a quarterback that's just like

okay to good, you need a lot of things around him to be successful and if something goes off you know if you get an injury coaching change the defense isn't that good it's just going to be really really hard to continue to win and i think that's kind of where it's kind of where the vikings have been i think under kirk cousins and it's where the saints are right now with, with Derek Carr. And if you look at Derek Carr's offensive line, it is abominable. And I think there's a number of quarterbacks in the league who have no chance at overcoming when their offensive line is bad. I don't know that I would include Kirk Cousins in that conversation because in

the past we have seen him overcome by just making quick decisions, throwing the ball accurately down the field, having amazing wide receivers, pretty huge part of that. But Derek Carr has never been that guy. He has never been the playmaker out of structure pressures come and he's going to do something crazy. And the new Orleans brings him there with hoping that Michael Thomas would become the old Michael Thomas, which will never happen again. And that he would be able to deal with this offensive line. They've also had some injuries there as well,

but there's no Toronto Armstead anymore. They made a bad draft pick there. A couple of bad draft picks actually along the offensive line that have been really costly to them. And once again, here they are the mid new Orleans saints and Sean Payton left at the right time. Maybe, maybe like bill Belichick should have going through the list of quarterbacks historically, just thinking of some that, you know, may have changed teams

when they were mid before and had success. Vinny Testaverde was one who was kind of mid with the Browns and did well with the New York jets. Drew Bledsoe went to Buffalo. Not so much, not so great there. That did not work out. Although maybe he was, he was,

Bledsoe was above mid though, but Bledsoe was a really, really good quarterback. And then just kind of got to a Superbowl. Yeah. Right. I mean, he was,

he was like just below the Elways and the Favres and like the great quarterbacks of the mid 90s. And he was kind of just coming up at that time. But he never quite cleared that to be the top quarterback in the NFL, which is, you know, in part how he got replaced by Tom Brady. But I've got a good example of where it really worked for a team. The New York Giants with Kerry Collins. Total mid-quarterback. Maybe some problems off the field. Goes to the Giants. They have great teams. That era is filled with just grind-it-out type of football. Tiki Barber was an MVP candidate one year.

And it worked out for him. Aside from that, though, unless you end up dropping that guy into an amazing situation, which Derek Carr is not, then not really going to work out but I wanted to start with a different question than that I was just inspired by the discussion but have you ever had a yard sale Manny me personally no I've had members of my family that have done it but me me personally, no, I've never had one. Okay, so but you're familiar with yard sales. You are aware of how they work. All right. So when your family member has a yard sale, what inevitably happens is they have stuff that is worth more than they sell it for because they're trying to get rid of it. That's why people shop at yard sales, right? So inevitably you might have a pair of Jordans that you bought for $160,

but you don't really love them. They hurt your feet. You don't want to wear them anymore. And so you put them out there, but you want to get like 50 bucks for them. No one's paying 50 bucks at a yard sale for shoes. They're paying nine bucks. Here's where this matters. Daniil Hunter. Brad Spielberger of PFF made me think twice about what I think they should get for Daniil Hunter. I'm going to read what he suggested for potential return. And I want you to tell me if it sounds like a yard sale he said the vikings or he projected the vikings to get from jacksonville a 2024 fourth a 2025 third and a 2025 fourth what is your reaction to that oh yeah that's a step down from me hoping they could get like a first round pick for him right

like a late first round pick from like a contending team uh from him yeah i don't know sometimes it's it's tough when you when you think about you know because i always think about when you make trades like that for a player of that caliber you want to get as high a draft pick as possible versus just having a bunch of like mid-round, you know, mid-round, first-round picks. It's more quality over quantity from my perspective. Yeah. So run it by me again it's a 2024 fourth a 2025 third and then another and yeah and a fourth

yep and another 2025 fourth yep so uh so a fourth from 24 and then a three and a four from 25 well well you know the more I think about it that's not I don't think that's terrible I don't think that's terrible I would obviously I would much rather have like a first round pick or like a second round pick or something like that in return for Daniel Hunter but you're telling me you could get a couple of picks that could potentially help you you know a year or so from now two years from now especially when you consider where the vikings are at right now you know i think it's it's something that could potentially help them down the line you know and maybe it's it's it's more ammunition for if you want to move up and take a quarterback in 2024 you've got a little bit more you've got a

few more chips um in your pile to kind of use to move up. So, yeah, I could be convinced to taking that deal. We saw last year some teams giving up kind of a lot for players who were star players that could make a difference. But what it usually came along with is a contract extension. And for someone like what Roquan Smith signed with Baltimore, did he not? And Bradley Chubb. So that's been talked about with Hunter,

but it's not the same. Roquan Smith and Bradley Chubb were young players. They were coming off of their rookie contracts. Daniil Hunter is not a young player somehow anymore, even though he has always felt like, oh, did you realize he's only 24 or something that no longer he is 29 and he not that long ago had major neck surgery and though he has been healthy that goes into the factor of how much you're going to pay this would be a pure rental for most teams

unless they really want to sign him to an extension. But are you doing that right away? Or is Hunter going to want to hit free agency rather than just signing with whatever team he's traded to? He would likely want to hit free agency. If he gets 15 sacks, someone's giving him a four-year contract for 120 million or something or whatever. I don't know, 100 million. And if he gets 15 more sacks,

which he's certainly on his way so far. And Hunter is a very, very good player who has a ton of respect in the league. You're not trading miles Garrett here though. You are, you're trading a very, very good player who gets a lot of sacks. It's not the same as the first top a one tier of pass rushers. And that's no criticism at all he's been one of the most excellent and consistent players it's just not the same type of pass rushes those guys who beat tackles instantly and when you look at those data points about how quickly they create their pressure those guys are a little bit on a different level so there's that uh but i think that if they're trading him for this return it would be mostly understandable from my perspective because i've had yard sales and this is a yard sale type of price but but from a vikings fan

perspective and how quesia daflamensa is viewed you would almost rather not have it happen because i know what that comment section is going to look like. It's going to be on fire. It's when I do the emergency podcast and they get a third, a fourth and a fourth back, it's going to be on fire with people saying, Kwesi can't make any trades and he doesn't know what he's doing. And he gave away Daniel Hunter for nothing. When a guy is a rental, that's what happens most of the time. And I do believe that they should get a little more than that, that a second would be good. But also, it's not too long ago, I was listening to Thomas Dimitrov and his podcast that he does

with our friend Eric Eager. And it's incredibly insightful from a guy who was a two-time GM of the year. One of the things he talked about is teams do not want to give up second round picks. And yes, it is true that Vaughn Miller went for very good return. Number one, Vaughn Miller, again, in the A plus echelon. He's going to the Hall of Fame. Vaughn Miller's going to the Hall of Fame. Yeah. Correct. The other part is that is an outlier situation with the Rams. They were wildly desperate. Who's wildly desperate? I mean, there's this, but there's teams that think they can win. But the Rams knew there was one season where they could win one. And it was that year and they did it. But they were willing to go beyond what anyone else would with their trade prices. Is there a team who will be so wildly desperate? Are the Jaguars wildly desperate? No, they don't want to give away their future. They view it as probably a five-year window to win with Trevor Lawrence.

All these things are factored into this. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I mean, and just going back to Von Miller, I mean, he's a step above, and this is no disrespect to Daniil hunter daniel hunter's fantastic but i mean von miller is getting a bust in canton like and i think a lot of people know that like just the the course of his career that he's had super bowl mvp the way he dominated that super bowl against the Panthers for the Broncos at Super Bowl 50 is just like, that's Hall of Fame stuff. I'm not sure Daniil, as terrific as Daniil Hunter is, it just feels like he's a step below that. I don't know if Daniil is a guy that can just

almost single-handedly just dominate the biggest game in the sport. I'm not sure we've really seen Daniil Hunter do that yet. And yeah, I mean, it would take a team that is just very, very desperate and feeling like this is the year to do it. We have no other options. This is the best guy that's on the trade market. Let's just pull the trigger on this deal and just make it happen because this is this is the last piece that we need to go on a run for this year and to your point like you said the jaguars are just not in that position jaguars are in a position where you know they can make the playoffs again this year maybe win a game or two go on maybe a little

bit of a run to the afc title game if they get a favorable matchup. But if they don't make it to the Super Bowl this year, it's like they still have a couple more years in theory with a young quarterback and some other young players and pieces to where they can still kind of keep their competitive window open for a while, you know, before they have to before they have to pay Trevor Lawrence the big money. So, yeah, it would it does seem like it would take a team that's really really desperate that feels like the window is slamming shut after this season and then maybe they get desperate and want to give up a higher draft pick the point about Bradley Chubb it's just really not a very good comparison because even

though I agree with anyone who says that Hunter is a better player than Bradley Chubb it's just really not a very good comparison because even though i agree with anyone who says that hunter is a better player than bradley chubb uh five years of age is important of when they were traded or four i think it's four years of age for when they were traded and the contract situation as well chubb also had i just looked this up 20 and a half sacks in his first 34 games he was i believe thought of as a guy that had a high ceiling and could be a long-term piece for Miami. He has not turned out to be that. That trade for them has not been very successful. So there's that, and that might play into it as well for a team giving up that much for an edge rusher, but age matters here. Every single season, it's like dog years. Like every season is worth seven years. And when you have Hunter, who's had that many

more seasons than another guy, you can't really make them equal. And even if you take what was given up for Vaughn Miller, but you consider the name recognition, the pedigree, the past history and the situation, and just normalize that for Daniil Hunter, it's not as good of a return. And what I'm trying to say here is we should be prepared for this. And the other thing I think too, is when you look back at before this season, Daniil Hunter is pulling a hold in and there's a report out there that the Vikings were looking for trade offers. And then the next day he's got a new contract with a bunch of millions in his pocket. What does that likely mean that other teams don't love something there to give top dollar. Because if someone came in with a first round draft pick

for Daniil Hunter, he would be a Jaguar. I believe that, that that was going to be the case if they came in at that moment when it was put out there by ESPN, somebody, one of the insiders saying that they're taking offers. If one of them had been a first round pick, he would have been somewhere else. We should just be ready for the fact that it might not be that moving on from the, these guys and the same goes for KJ Osborne. If you get a fifth, if that's what you're doing,

then you just got to take it. The reality is they have no leverage also, because what are they going to say? If you go to two and five or two and six, we'll keep them like, okay. And then let them go for nothing and get it if you can get more than what the compensatory pick would be you're you're still getting more and getting something immediate that would be helpful and you have to just take what you get reminds me of pawn stars you ever watch pawn stars people will go in and be like i've got this diet coke and uh napoleon drank out of

this diet coke will you give me ten thousand dollars for it and the guy's like oh you know yeah let me get an expert in here expert comes and goes yeah that's uh that's napoleon's diet coke but it's not worth uh ten thousand dollars it's worth like six and the person will be like no i'll keep it. Like you could add $6,000. I look at it the same way as this. Take what you can get for it, even if it's not going to make the general manager

look like a genius. Absolutely. And it's, you know, even if, you know, you trade to Neil Hunter and you get, you know, a third round pick and two fourths over the course of uh two two drafts it's a hell of a lot better than letting him walk in free agency and getting and getting nothing for him because that ultimately if you're not if he's not part of your long-term plans if

you're not going to sign him to another extension then letting him walk for nothing in a season in which you know you weren't even contending for a Super Bowl is just disastrous. Like, it's one thing if you want to hang on to him because you feel like you can go on a deep run. And then you're just pushing all your chips to the center of the table. But, you know, where the Vikings are at right now, they're not going to contend for a Super Bowl this year. And if you let Daniil Hunter walk in free agency and you don't bring him back because you got a third and two fourths instead of, you know, a second round pick like you thought you should get, you end up getting nothing. And it's just, it's completely disastrous. It's the last thing you want to do if you're crazy at Dolph Lomensa.

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Again, create an account, redeem the code INSIDER for $20 off. Download GameTime today. Last minute tickets, lowest price guaranteed. The only reason to keep him around would be if you win the next two games or if he has told you, I want to be a Viking, I'll sign whatever extension you've got this offseason. We'll work on that. That seems unlikely because he's fought the battle all the way to this point.

All right, time to tell you about a couple of things, but I got something new, and it's not pizza this time, Manny. I know that you love to hear about Little Caesars and pizza, but it's not that. It's actually a trip to Las Vegas that I will be making when there is a football game in Las Vegas in the second week of December. I am going to Las Vegas and I'm going to be staying at Circa in Las Vegas, where I did the show a little bit this summer and it was like 110. But in December, it won't be.

It will be much nicer than that out if you're going from Minnesota to Las Vegas. So I will be hanging out at Circa, and you can find me at Stadium Swim, where they have a football field-size television, and I'm going to stay there in their heated pools also. So even if it's a little cool outside, they got 85-degree pools, literally one of the coolest places on earth to watch sports.

And then Friday night before the game, there is a special party just for Minnesota fans that includes drink specials and two tickets giveaway to the game. So come meet me there and talk football at the amazing Overhang Bar at Circa in Las Vegas in the second week of December. You have to RSVP for the party, though. So go to CircaLasVegas.com. Go to where it says Sportsbook and click where it says Huddle Up at Overhang. Not that hard. CircaLasVegas.com. Go to where it says Sportsbook and click where it says Huddle Up at Overhang. Not that hard. CircaLasVegas.com.

You'll find it. Make a whole weekend of it at Circa. It's located on the amazing Fremont Street, which is awesome in Las Vegas. And we'll have a great getaway from the Minnesota winter all together at CircaLasVegas.com for more details. Book your spot today. And, yeah, I will be there that should be very fun so let me know if any of you are headed out there and circa is the place to go daniel hunter follow-up not so much on his trade value let's say it's over manny let's say the

vikings lose 46 to 3 to san francisco and they just decide, you know what? We shouldn't even bother finding out what happens in green Bay. We've got some phone calls. Now someone wants to give us a second round pick and off we go. And, uh, actually, by the way, I don't think I finished the, the, what I was saying about, um, Thomas Dimitrov and the show. I think I got off the tangent on that. The whole point was just that he said, second round picks are gold to a lot of general managers. That's what I was going to say. It's hard to get second round picks away from general managers. They turn into starters a lot.

They're considered high draft picks. That's all I was going to say. Anyway, where would you put Daniil Hunter in the pantheon of great defensive linemen for the Minnesota Vikings, a franchise that is wrought with them. There are so many historically, if he is traded after this week, where would you put Daniel Hunter? I think I would put him. It's a great question. I mean, you have so many just all time great players that were such great contributors to the Vikings and have, you know, gold jackets.

You know, I mean, you just think about that purple people either in line with Eller and Marshall, who should be in the Hall of Fame, and, of course, Alan Page, who might be the greatest Vikings defensive player of all time. You know, and that was just in the 70s. I mean, you go into the 80s and you've got Chris Dolman and, you know, all of those great defenses that they had, especially like in the late 80s, John Randall.

I think the problem with Daniil, and it's going to sound like I'm ripping him for this, but I'm really not. I think what maybe keeps him maybe a step below all of those guys that I kind of listed off was those guys really, in a lot of ways, were representative of the identity of those Vikings defenses during those times. I mean, Eller and Marshall and Page were just, they were the purple people leaders. It's what, when you think about that, those great Vikings defenses of the 70s, it was those three guys, Paul Krause, obviously too.

But, you know, that defensive front was the identity of that defense. You know, you go with Chris Dolman in the late 80s and keith millard and you know those that sort of past rushing tandem that they were in the late 80s uh really kind of defined that defense john randall was i mean john randall before randy moss came along in the late 90s john randall was the identity of the minnesota, really. I mean, him and Chris, Chris Carter, too, on the offensive side. But, like, John Randall was, like, the identity of that defense because he was such a great player, great interior defensive player, pass rusher. I don't know.

I mean, Daniil's been fantastic. I just, I kind of put him maybe a step below those guys, you in kind of the same tier as an Everson Griffin. But even Everson, you kind of think about him in the Zimmer years about just how good he was, and he was kind of the emotional leader of that defense and obviously a very productive pass rusher as well. And Daniil was right there in the middle of that too. So very productive um i don't know if we'll remember him the same way that we remember a lot of those other guys that i talked about and it's not a knock on him at all i mean

he's he's been very good very productive i think 79 sacks in his career and he's in his ninth season now um so very productive but i i think when we start thinking about great defensive lineman he's gonna be probably like the seventh or eighth guy that you probably list off and you start thinking about great defensive um defensive lineman in vikings history so i made a list we'll see if you agree with it this is just in the order i think that vikings all-time defensive lineman so i'm going to name off until i get to daniel hunter the guys that i think are ahead of him it's sort of in order but it's not perfect i didn't think about it forever uh carl eller was number one for me, Alan Page, and then John Randall, Jim Marshall, Chris

Dolman, Jared Allen, Everson Griffin. And then that's where I get to Daniil. But you could also convince me Kevin Williams as a six time all pro was ahead of him. So I might even say Kevin Williams as well as ahead of him. I think he belongs ahead of someone like say um well he's ahead of yeah someone i don't know like they had some guy like keith millard was very briefly amazing so they had some guys like that who kind of had their runs and then everybody out like henry thomas was great lance johnstone was pretty good like there's other guys who were in there that i

think he's above. Pat Williams, to me, is a different position. That's talking about all-time awesome fat dudes, but not in the same pass rusher type. Kevin Williams is a pass rusher. So I think what that says to me is he's not quite like a ring of honor. He's a ring of honor person and is part of a lot of great moments. But when I think of the Vikings D-line 2017, their best defense, it's really Everson Griffin who drives the success of that.

And I don't put him ahead of Griffin. I think Griffin was more dominant, more scary for the opposing team, beat his tackle quicker, drew more attention. That was even by the statistics. He drew more attention that was even by the statistics he drew more attention during that time i look at some of those other guys as they were so terrifying where hunter is very very good and he will keep going and keep going and get to the quarterback but it's not quite that same guy takes the snap and is instantly sacked by jared allen like that same get off and burst but he is in that discussion and look if you're in that discussion, it's like being Horace Grant for the Bulls.

Like, yeah, you're not Jordan. That's Alan Page or Carl Eller. But you're in the discussion for the all-time great Bulls. Yeah, absolutely. He's just, he was like a, it's almost like he was like an elite. He's been like an elite. Well, okay, backtracking a bit. You look at the great Zimmer defenses from like 2015 to like 18

and maybe a little bit into 19 as well. It's almost like Daniil was, he was great during that time. He was like an elite secondary player on that team. I mean, Everson Griffin, Harrison Smith, those were like the all pro emotional, you know, real like leaders of that defense and really kind of represented the identity of those defenses. And Daniil was just a guy that went in there and just got the job done. And he was very very good he's been very good very productive but in terms of I just I you know I keep using that word identity that's that's where that's kind of the difference maker for me when you think about

all the other guys we talked about they just those guys really were the identity of those defenses and Daniil's just never really been that and again it's not a knock on him it doesn't mean he's trash it doesn't mean he's a bad player he's been a very productive player but it's just i think it's just that one thing that kind of separates him um as kind of a step below some of those other guys we're only talking about the best of the best and where you rank somebody in the best of the best which is far from an insult and like i said um definitely one of the the great players in vikings history but even when you look at something like approximate value which i think gives you

a really really good idea of a player's contributions to their team. It's not perfect. It's from pro football reference. It's kind of, it kind of tries to be an all in one type of statistics. When you look at the contributions overall of Carl Eller, who is the franchise's most valuable defensive player ever, he is far, far above, I mean, like completely different universe. Actually. Yeah. actually yeah you know he's the franchise's all-time most valuable player ever period is uh carl eller and you gotta scroll down quite a ways to get to daniel hunter who is still in the top he's 61st and the similarity players for him are like jake reed bison, Anthony Barr, Adam Phelan.

Like those are the guys who score similarly by approximate value. And that kind of makes sense to me. And offensive players are naturally more valuable. Let's talk about the 49ers for a second here, Manny. I wrote a little piece about the matchup between Flores and Kyle Shanahan. And I'm so intrigued with it and i want to talk about it with you just for a second like you've heard of the styles make fights that that's saying and i just think that this is is a really interesting matchup between these two

guys floris and kyle shanahan and i wonder what you think of when we talk about unique schemes and teams that have an identity. And I think what Flores is starting to do is give his defense an identity, which is kind of cool to see that come together. And Shanahan has created this brilliant identity of playmakers run all over the place, motions, confusion, frustrated defenses, linebackers with their heads spinning. And I don't know, I mean, linebackers with their heads spinning. And I don't know. I mean, maybe you've got historical comparisons, but I just want to know what you think of the matchup.

I think it's going to be a really exciting chess match. And, you know, I think when you, especially when you consider, like, okay, the Vikings defense, their defensive front has been, you know, with the exception of, like, Daniil Hunter andil Hunter and everything, their interior defensive lineman, it's very mid. It's not a super productive defensive front. But I kind of like what I'm seeing from the secondary, sort of that back seven from the Vikings defense, I think has been really solid. And I think when you look at the Kyle Shanahan offense in that, like you said, there's so many motions and confusion, and guys are just, you're looking around,

guys are just like almost always open. Devo Samuel's like almost always open. Brandon Ayuk, almost always open. You know, George Kittle just finds a way to get to the football. It's going to be a really interesting chess match. You know, what kind of blitz is Brian Flores going to kind of dial up to kind of get some pressure on Brock Purdy? And you add in the fact that, you know, is Christian McCaffrey going to play?

Probably not. Is Devo Samuel going to play? I mean, probably not. I don't know. See, they're both questionable, I think, last we checked. And if those guys are not playing, it could change some things and it could make things a little bit more challenging for Brock Purdy. It might be a little bit easier to get a, to get a pass rush on him.

If he's not having those same options, but you know, Brandon Iuke is pretty good. George Kittle's one of the best pass catching. I mean, forget about just pass catching. George Kittle is one of the best tight ends in the league, just period, all around. He's a great blocker, great pass catcher, et cetera, et cetera. So there's still going to be some weapons there, but you do kind of wonder, like, what kind of impact not, you know, potentially not having Christian McCaffrey and Devo Samuel. If they're both out, what kind of impact is that going to have on Brock Purdy and that passing attack and the running game for that matter too with McCaffrey out so it's it's something that

could maybe work in Brian Flores's you know favor if if the Niners are missing some some key pieces but I think with that offensive line being really solid and Brock Purdy himself just being very solid it's going to be it's going to be an interesting matchup I'll be curious to see offensive line being really solid and Brock Purdy himself just being very solid. It's going to be, it's going to be an interesting matchup. I'll be curious to see like what sort of scheme Brian Flores kind of dials up to try and counter what the Niners are doing. Folks, there is no busier time for me than the fall. And that means I'm always running out the door and grabbing fast food on the way to cover football.

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Yeah. Bob says, uh, Flores is playing chess with half the pieces missing, not a fair fight unless McCaffrey and Debo are out. And that is possible that they will be. And we're going to have to see, we won't know, I'm sure until game day, because anytime a coach can take full advantage, they're going to do that and they'll make them game time decisions. And then we'll see from there. Those guys are such huge difference makers. I mean, McCaffrey leads the entire NFL in rushing yards and is second in rushing touchdowns. That's no small thing, especially against the Vikings defense that is very beatable in the run game without Marcus Davenport. This is where Marcus Davenport, in my mind, makes the biggest impact is, yeah, he can rush the passer, but he's humongous and he

could take on two guys if he has to. He could take on tackles and not get pushed around. DJ Wanham and Patrick Jones are just not like that. I mean, those guys are not impact players against the run game. And this is a team. I was thinking about this last week, Manny, that if the Chicago Bears had not thrown a pass, they win the game, right? If they had only run the whole game, their best drive was just handoff, handoff, handoff, handoff. And then they got to the goal line.

We're like, you know, what we should do is pass. It made no sense. If teams stick with the run game and they can run, I mean, Carolina can't run at all or whatever, but San Francisco can run. They will do it. They'll do what Philly did. They will be totally content to just keep running against the Vikings, which is going to be the challenge they have to face. And then are they going to bring up five guys to the D line? Like they did a lot of last week when they started getting run on. And then does that open the underneath stuff, how they manage all of that. But really Kyle Shanahan always looks smarter when he has some of the best players on earth, that makes a big difference. So I like the matchup quite a bit. I also want to see how the adjustment has to happen for Brian Flist to an offense that also is very happy to throw underneath and that's another thing that what the chargers did so well was they said you're not going to let us go deep okay we'll just throw to our the one of

the best underneath receivers over and over and over and over again and i think san francisco will be willing to do that uh tang asked didn't carl eller become the first to win mvp for a defensive player i think it was page that was alan page yeah alan page did yeah nonetheless both of them incredible um blackjack millard was amazing if not for a knee injury probably hall of famer very possible had that what 18 sack season uh you know but with daniel hunter the longevity matters he's been a huge part of this team for a very long time so yeah i i think that you know there's a really tough decision here for florist does he try to pressure brock purdy or is he going

to be afraid that as soon as they pressure they vacate areas he can find because the areas were there for justin fields he just didn't find them and when i look back at the tape i was like wow i mean florist was basically saying he was doing the equivalent of i'm gonna step back and i'll let you take that three go ahead take that three you won't make it and justin fields did not make it. I like when it's that way. Do you have a favorite of matchup of coaches and styles ever? I'll give you mine. I mean, the most historic classic one, will you think, is Parcells versus Bill Walsh.

The defensive mind, the defensive genius, the offensive genius. They came to blows many times with their teams. One time there was some shenanigans with the headsets because I think it was Parcells said his headset wasn't working. So they couldn't communicate as well for the 49ers or maybe it was the other way around, whatever it was. I mean, stuff like that, that was really cool over the years. And I'm not saying this is exactly that but anytime i can kind of grab on to such unique and distinct styles i'm excited about it yeah there was two that came to mind um ironically they both involved the the rams franchise uh the

first one was the 99 nfc championship game where the tampauccaneers, the Tony Dungy Tampa 2 defense, kind of at the peak of their powers or at least beginning kind of the peak of their powers because they were great for a few more years after that, too, and won the Super Bowl a couple years later. DeBarber and Derek Brooks and John Lynch against the greatest show on turf in the NFC title game final score that game was 11 to 6 the Buccaneers defense was great and if they would have had some semblance of an offense in that game with like Sean King and and Warwick Dunn and those guys uh the Buccaneers might have gone to the Super Bowl that year um and the Rams won that game 11 to 6 it was just a great chess match and and it was really interesting to see this off this Rams offense that was so high powered and just blowing out everybody and running past everybody on that turf to kind of see them get overwhelmed and dominated by a defense that was very fast, very quick, very smart, tackled well, made great decisions.

That was really exciting. That was a great chess match. And the other one is the, I think it was Super Bowl 53 with the Rams and the Patriots. Bill Belichick, you know, he had kind of adjusted his defense over the years. It was not the same defense with, with like Matt Patricia that it was when you know Romeo Cornell was the coordinator you know a decade and a half prior but it was still a really good defense with you know Stephon Gilmore and some of those other guys against

you know the best offense in the NFL that year and the Rams and Sean McVay and that new innovative offense and it was kind of the same thing. It was the defensive, the old school defensive-minded coach kind of prevailing over the young offensive coach. And so that was, and it's not something, the thing I also love about those, it's not something that you see a whole lot. You don't really see the great, it's really the all-time great defenses

that we see that dominate offenses otherwise the offensive teams typically always prevail in these situations um but yeah if you're talking about just great matchups and chess match type of matchups between like kind of polar opposite coaches those are the two that came to mind bob says the thing gets me about this team for decades the vikings always had the next guy working their way up through the ranks this team has nobody up and coming behind defensive starters uh well i mean we're seeing some of those guys play like now we're seeing a caleb evans play and i think he's looked okay so far this year outside of the ball bouncing off him for a

touchdown that's he's in the right position but but he's made a lot of great tackles and has been good coming downhill cam bynum is a guy who has developed into a very good starter and i think the best story on the field is the vikings identifying what they had in josh metellus who has made a lot of great plays he's been a hybrid type of player for them so yeah i mean i think that those guys are getting on the field as far as backups go. Yeah, they're still quite light in that category, particularly on the defensive line. That's where it's got to change big time if they want to be like San Francisco. I think your selections for matchups and styles making fights are just great.

I mean, that's NFL history, right? Just all the way through it. But we were able to get Belichick versus Peyton Manning for how long, how many matchups and how great that is. The Denver Broncos against the Carolina Panthers, though the Panthers dropped and fumbled everything in that game, but still a, how are you going to contain such an incredible quarterback at that time and how he was so dynamic at running the football and everything else. And then, you know, them, you know, Denver figuring out a way to do that by dominating on the defensive line. So yeah, there's a lot of Superbowls that have this

throughout history. And it's one of my favorite things about the game before we get to our all time favorite San Francisco 49ers and what you think is going to happen in the game i want to remind you about prize picks because we've had a lot of fun on the show with prize picks and i'm going with kirk cousins throwing more yards than expected here with prize picks if you haven't heard us talk about it it's very simple you pick between two and six players at prizepicks.com and you pick more or less for their stat projection that can be touchdowns i like yards i like going field goals uh more or less but any sort of stat projection and it's not just football basketball is getting started up there's lots of different sports

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I don't think either of us thinks. Sorry, Tang says, can we do drops by the Vikings? They don't have that. That's funny, though. They don't have that. That's funny, though. They don't have drops. It's unreal how many times they've dropped the football this year. This has been not a thing since I started covering the team. It's not whether we think they'll beat the 49ers.

No one thinks they'll beat the 49ers. Give them a percent. What's the chance? What do you think? I'd give them a little bit of a shot because they'll be at home. And, you know, depending on how healthy the Niners are going to be with, you know, with McCaffrey and Debo, you know, will they play? How effective will they be if they do play?

I'll give the Vikings a little bit of a shot, but I still think the Niners are just kind of top to bottom, the better football team. So I'll give the Vikings maybe about a, I'll give them about a 20% chance. On paper, it has a Dallas Cowboys versus Vikings feel last year, where Dallas was statistically probably the best team in the NFC last year when they faced them. And then they got pummeled. I don't know if that will be what happens last year. They were coming off of a super emotional game in Buffalo. It was not an emotional win in Chicago. I can say that one concern I would have without Davenport, this defensive line has been on the field for a

lot of plays against even Chicago had the ball more than the Vikings. Every team they've played has dominated the time of possession. And that adds up on the player's bodies over weeks and weeks and weeks. And I think it matters a little bit that that's been the case. It's a tough ride. It's not impossible, not just being at home. Also it's, it's just football. Like last week we saw the New York giants come this close, a non-pass interference call away from potentially beating the bills. That is a horrendous team versus a team that can win the super bowl. And it comes down to the final moments. That's how it works on a weekly basis. It's kind of the best I can do though, without Justin Jefferson, every argument when the Vikings are underdogs has always

started with, well, as long as Justin Jefferson plays here, you've got a chance. Justin Jefferson doesn't play here this week. That is a problem. All right, let's finish the show and a viewer participation is allowed here. Five favorite San Francisco 49ers of your lifetime of watching football, Manny. Let's hear it. I am excited for this list. Carlo, this was hard because I listed off like almost 20 players of just like some of the guys that I just thought about because I've followed the Niners for so long. You know that 94 team is my favorite team of all time. So I'm going to go with this for my list.

Steve Young is my favorite Niners quarterback of all time. I know Joe Montana was probably the greater quarterback, won the four Super Bowls, Super Bowl MVP, etc., etc. Probably second greatest quarterback of all time behind Brady but Steve Young was just always kind of my favorite because I love the way that he you know he was a left-handed quarterback which was always fun because you didn't see a lot of those in the league he could run he was tough he just he was super accurate he was great and then you know the 94 season where he was the MVP and had the six touchdowns in the Super Bowl was just it was the year of Steve Young, 1994. So he's won from that same team. And it's just because how can you hate the guy?

And I know he was only there for that one year. But Deion Sanders, man, the best year of his career statistically was 1994 he was the defensive player of the year he had three pick sixes i think in that season he was just great and it's dion like it's just dion should be on everybody's favorite player list he should be um so that so there's two uh frank gore is another one i love me some frank gore. Just the toughness. He was old school. He ran between the tackles. He wasn't a blazing speed guy that made you miss, but he was just tough and got a lot of yards, played a long time in the league. And to play, I don't know, what was it, 15, 16, 17 years at that position and still be mildly productive, mildly productive into your, into your bid thirties is pretty impressive.

So Frank Gore is there. Vernon Davis is another one just because he was playing using Vernon Davis on Madden was always fun because he was like the first tight end that had like a speed of a speed rating of like 90 or above. Cause you never saw tight ends have that on that, that, that kind of speed. So Vernon Davis was great. And then Merton Hanks was another one. I plucked quite a few guys off that 94 team, but Merton Hanks was another one just because the, the celebration, every time he made a good play with the, with the neck thing was, was awesome. And Merton Hanks, I don't know if you noticed this too, Merton Hanks I don't know if you noticed this too Merton Hanks for

some reason had very small shoulder pads I don't know if you remember noticing that he had like Michael Bennett shoulder pads now the jerseys back then the players wore their jerseys a lot bigger back then so you couldn't really you know it still kind of looked like he had big shoulder pads but they weren't like the huge shoulder pads that a lot of other players around the league had um so that was always kind of a weird thing i think he had like a unique helmet too his helmet was a little bit different than other players around the league too so burton hanks was awesome he was just really cool so those are my five yeah like he had like a quarterback helmet it it wasn't like an extra going on. I think it was very simple.

And that's how I remember it. I do remember him being sort of skinny for being a safety and being more of a playmaker than a big hitter. But the celebration just made him super cool. Totally agree with that. There's so many that I could choose from. Automatically, one spot has to go to Steve Young. Totally agree with you that he had something special to him that went just beyond like, like a leadership quality, a toughness quality, and was one of the most, if not the most accurate quarterback to ever play just for the time period to complete 70% of your passes was absurd.

If you completed 60, they'd make a graphic and put it on the TV. 62% this guy back in the day. And he'd be out there completing 67, 68% and was putting up numbers that still hold up today. I also loved his football life, what he went through with the situation with Joe Montana, how he worked his way through that how he took over the reins of the franchise the story of him being taken out in a blowout and then going nuts on bill walsh and the team kind of being like okay i get like this is our guy this guy cares that that stuff is is great to me the lore uh ricky waters is being mentioned in the comments that is one of my picks one of the

dual threat guys of the era they were so good at throwing to running backs and he's in there also tom rathman how could he not be on my list tom freaking rathman he would get like 50 passes out of the backfield he He could run. He could run people over one of the most versatile players to ever play. Rathman is an incredible player. I will also go with the nastiest linebacker of the time, Ken Norton Jr., whose dad was an all-time great boxer. And I used to come up with John Madden. Wellden well you know his dad's an all-time great boxer look at him and boom and all that and i will go with another defensive player as well went into the hall of fame rightfully bryant young freakish defensive player was always causing all sorts

of problems on those teams that i i think that the game that's played in 94 between, because this is just after, or just before, I guess, free agency is starting or just as free agency is starting where you have players and teams stayed together forever. Dallas and San Francisco is the most talented football that's ever happened between two teams. After free agency starts, you got players moving all the time. Teams wouldn't stay together. Expansion happens. We got more teams. The most concentrated talent where it's star after star after star.

Ronnie Lott certainly belongs on that list. A little, a shade before me though, with his time with San Francisco, he was going to some other teams. He went to like the Jets or something. I just don't remember him as clearly as some of the other guys, Ronnie lot. And also just a shout out to Lee Woodall, who had the most ridiculous neck role in history,

like absurd. He had an entire building behind his pads. It was wild. I mean, we could go on forever. Frankre is a great pick patrick wills is a great pick uh they had offensive linemen that were great kevin gogan was this big giant guard they used to run behind garrison hurst was cool uh how about the other receivers beyond jerry rice who we didn't mention jerry rice the literal goat i I mean, John Taylor, J.J. Stokes.

What a cool, cool franchise. So anyway, great, great lists from everybody. And we'll see what happens, Manny. We'll see what happens. If they win this game, then we got to kind of change the way we talk about things with this team and where they're going. If they lose this game, then we're going to have more headlines that say stuff like, here's what expected return for a trade of somebody is. And anyway, we will talk then. So thanks for your time, Manny, and everybody for the participation in the comments.

And we'll talk again soon. Thanks, Manny. Got it.