Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - PFF's Max Chadwick is intrigued by the Vikings taking a guard in Round 1

Episode Date: February 26, 2025

From Radio Row at the NFL Combine, Matthew Coller is joined by PFF's Max Chadwick to discuss the Combine and why he's interested in the idea of the Vikings take a guard in the first round of this year's draft. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody, welcome inside Radio Row here at the NFL Combine. Joining me on the show is Max Chadwick making his second, third, fourth appearance here on the show. I can't actually remember how many it is. PFF College Football Show and Analyst and last year we had our first show together here at the Combine and at that time we were talking about the quarterback class. So I want to get into I want to relive that go back and look what we know now about the quarterback class but also I want to talk

about offensive lineman. Are you good with talking about offensive lineman? I thought you would be so right away first question for you, no real intro other than that. Gray Zable. Mel Kuiper has the Vikings in his latest mock taking Gray Zable. And I'll tell you how much I know about Gray Zable. Not a lot. Not a lot. What do you know about Gray Zable? I do know he was phenomenal at the senior bowl. We were actually down there in mobile and he was a guy that played a lot of tackle at North Dakota State and they kicked him inside of the senior bowl. So one it's really he's you know fighting uphill climb almost in the senior bowl because one he's going up against you know not only FPS competition but like all-star level FPS competition and two he's playing

positions he never played before and yet he was the best player in the field I thought. So he he really improved the stock a lot. I don't know if I would take him to a 24th overall in the NFL draft, but he seems to be going up that way. So I can see him, I think he's going to be a top 40 pick in this draft. And honestly, the way he was at the senior bowl, I can see a lot of teams like the Vikings who need help in the interior offensive line, maybe even taking a swing at number 24. I think one of the biggest stories here in Indianapolis is interior offensive line. Because we watched the Super Bowl,

but it wasn't just the Super Bowl. In fact, I'm working on a story using PFF data showing that interior offensive linemen's grades have gone down over the last five years on the whole. And I think that that's defensive tackles, which there's a huge class here coming, but also blitzing up the middle. And if don't have an interior as we've seen from the Vikings you're getting blasted so the Vikings we know are interested in the interior if

it's not Zable who is it what would they do is there a tackle to move to guard are people more willing to move to guard from tackle now that guards are getting paid more money I think this is a big discussion for the Vikings here. I think it is. I think there's a lot of guys. This is a very interesting tackle class. And there's a lot of guys at the top. You think, OK, can they stick a tackle or they're going to play guard like Will Campbell? Unfortunately, he won't be there at number 24 overall for the Vikings.

But he's a guy that Ambrose talked about. OK, he could be a good tackle in the NFL or he could be a great guard in the league as well. So like reminds me like the Peter Skoronsky conversation a couple of years ago that we had with him, but he has a lot of guys. I mean, Wyatt Milam was a guy that really greeted out super well. PFF has a tackle, West Virginia.

I think he's a guard at the next level. So that could be an option for the Vikings in the second round, probably the draft. There's a lot of guys in this draft, like Tyler Booker is a guy that a lot of people love in this class. He's probably gonna be a first round pick. Donovan Jackson played tackle for Ohio State in a pinch,

did well there. He's really a guard though, he's a really good guard. I like him in this class as well. There's a lot of guys, and it's interesting because there's not a lot of true guards in college that you go to the NFL. There's a lot of guys that you play tackle in college that you're projecting to play guard in the NFL.

Right, because they're probably the best linemen that their college has, and then they have a playing at the most valuable position. But that's something that's been on my mind a lot, is how valuable the guard position is now, because there's a lot of truths, I mean, from the PFF era of giving us truths about football, but the truths of football are always changing.

And you see a team that runs the football as well as Philadelphia, and even Washington with their running quarterback and things like that. Like running the football was kind of in this year. It's kind of in vogue. And so the combination of running being more effective, defense is getting smaller. I feel like the guard position is now increasing in value from even five years ago where we would have said, look, you can just sign a guy. You could just develop a guy. But I think with the physical ability

of the interior defensive linemen, how many freaks, how many Aaron Donald prototypes there are, I don't think you could just throw people in there. Oh, no, you absolutely cannot. I mean, like you mentioned, the Super Bowl was a perfect example of that, right? Kansas City had a lot of interior pressure because Joe Tuni was playing tackle out there and Jalen Carter and Milton Williams and

all those guys were eating in the middle for Philadelphia. I mean you need to have Steve Palazzo, a former PFF, said it really well, is like offensive line is a position group where you need to have at least good enough play at all five positions. There are some groups in the NFL like wide receiver. If you have a superstar wide receiver, it makes up for a lackluster number two or number three. Offensive line, if you have a superstar left tackle, but lackluster everywhere else, it's not gonna really do much for you, right?

So it's really gonna try to creep towards average, at least in all five positions in the offensive line. And you're right, I mean, guard and center have become increasingly more valuable through the years. So compare it to the running back position, which I feel like we're having the same exact conversation where if you had told me three, four running backs go in the first round, it would have been like, uh, what am I nine years old? Like what, what is this?

1997? Where's, where's Kijana Carter or whatever? Penn State legend. Yeah. There you go. Uh, I'm glad that you know that reference. Last running back ever went number one overall was Kijana Carter. Okay. I didn't realize that. Uh, but yeah, that's kind of the last time that anyone drafted running backs that high. There was the one time Lenny Fournette was what fourth overall but aside from aside from the occasional Jameer

Gibbs or Fournette, it's mostly been hey, stay away from those running backs the first round but then Daniel Jeremiah's got Trevion Henderson to the Vikings. There's so much intrigue with this running back class but I think it's the same question. I think you're saying guard is kind of worth it. If it's the right guy is running back worth it. If the Minnesota Vikings do have other needs, he better be a superstar is what I'll say. Like Ashton Gentile is a superstar, right? You take an Ashton Gentile in the first round. Um, this class after Gentile is interesting because it's so deep that you

can almost say, okay, if we're not getting an Ash in Jinty, even if Amarion Hampton is a superstar, I think he's a really good player, would you rather have Amarion Hampton at 24 overall or get another guy later on in the draft like a Quinshaw and Jutkins maybe in the second round? It's like that guy's really talent level is similar. So I think you kind of weigh it by that, but yeah, it's really interesting. Honestly, I think it's a great running back class. And I think with the amount of two by that. But yeah, it's really interesting, honestly. I think it's a great running back class. And I think with the amount of too high safeties that a lot of teams are deploying now,

running the ball is so valuable. I mean, you see what happens with Saquon Barkley in Philadelphia. It allows Jalen Hurts to get one-on-one matchups with AJ Brown and Devontae Smith. Running the ball has become kind of like a renaissance for running backs right now. So as I said before, I think it's a great year for Ash

and Jinty, not only do they have a record setting season, but also the NFL, you saw Saquon Barkley, the Eagles, the Super Bowl, right? Derek Henry and the Ravens had a great year as well. Like paying running backs now has all become kind of in vogue in the NFL nowadays. Well, and the fact is that they still don't get paid that much in comparison to other positions, which is some of the argument not to draft one, which is that you could go out and get the top guy for $12 million, $15 million.

But if you look at a class of free agents like this year, Rico Dowdell, Aaron Jones, and et cetera, there's just not a lot, Khalil Herbert, there's not a lot else to work with there. And so I think the Vikings do have to look at this class, but they also have four draft picks at the moment. And so how do you, two of them are in the fifth round. They can get more maybe from a Sam Darnold trade, maybe from trading back, but still like they're not going to have 12 draft picks where you could just go, Oh yeah, I'll take

a running back over here and then, you know, get all the real needs. It has to be a significant investment. I mean, it could be in the backend of the third round where they have a comp pick. Who do you like in the running back rooms? Because there seems to be a significant investment. I mean, it could be in the back end of the third round where they have a comp pick. Who do you like in the running back rooms? Because there seems to be a lot of debate where everybody asks, kind of has different opinions. Is it stylistic to you with running backs or not so much? Because to me, if a team has a very clear identity as a running team, yes, then you need that.

The Vikings have not had any running identity at all. So I think just look for talent. I agree with that. I think if you were a heavy zone team or heavy gap team, that might be you look at some guys versus another, like Kamp Scadaboo, for example, Marizzo. I'm saying he's a gap runner. I want him in a gap scheme.

Caleb Johnson from Iowa, I think he's a great zone runner. So he'd be great in a zone scheme. So that kind of goes into it. And then like I said before, this guy's like Ash Jinty. You're like, I don't care what you run. Like you put Ash Jinty back there and you let him cook. So I think it's a really good class. I think there's like 20 guys in this running back class

that I really, really like that I would take as like a number two or number three option for my backfield. I think it's an outstanding class. And not only at the top of Jinty and Hampton and Quinshaw, Jutins, and Kam Skattaboo, and Drake Van Henderson, like you mentioned before. I mean, the depth is ridiculous in this class as well. So I'm a big fan of it.

And I think, yeah, Minnesota doesn't have that many picks. That might be a problem. But I do think it could be a good thing for them down the road to at least get one of these guys. Like you mentioned, last year, it was a great free agent class and a bad draft class for running backs. This year is the opposite, where it's not a great free agent class. And bad draft class for running backs. This year is the opposite where it's not a great free agent class and there's a really really good draft class. I'm sorry,

where I'm positioned in radio row, everyone walks by me when they're going to interview the coaches and GMs, so every person I know is like, hey, I'm still listening, but you're going to see me throughout the week just being like, what's going on? I'm used to my co-hosts just tuning me out anyway. Yeah, that's right. I have no idea what you said about the running backs. No, but one more about those though. Trevion Henderson is an interesting one because he's part of a duo in the backfield with Ohio State, which may have kept some miles off of his body, I think.

But he did have some injuries and maybe some inconsistency at Ohio State. Then you look at the numbers, you go, looks pretty good to me. He seems to be the one where some people have him as a first round pick and some people are like, I don't even know if he's the best running back on his own team. Yes, he is.

That's a great point you made before that. Him in a committee is where you need to, you cannot draft Trevon Henderson and say, he is my number one back. He can get every carry. Because he did that at Ohio State for his first couple of years and he got hurt. He missed five games can get every carry because he did that Ohio State for his first couple years and he got hurt like he missed five games and I think two seasons at Ohio State each so he's missed multiple

games and multiple seasons this year when Quinchon Jenkins transferred in they kind of split the touches and he stayed healthy the whole year and like you said he had the best year yet I thought at Ohio State so I think he in a committee backfield is how you need to deploy him like how the Lions did with Jameer Gibson, David Montgomery. That's how Trevion Henderson if you use it in a backfield. So if they're both very valuable. So if you draft Trevion Henderson with the idea of, okay, he's not our number one or he could be your number one, but at least have a number two that he did a lot of mileage as well. That's how to use it. Cause I think he's not going to hold up in a

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in his first year and a half. And then David Montgomery gets hurt and it's like, oh, actually Jameer Gibbs can just be out there the whole time. So maybe teams are a little too cautious when it comes to something like that. I think for them, they should look at Caleb Johnson if it's possible. What I run

into with that with the mock draft simulator, which by the way is still the best, I still use it, it's actually up in my tabs right here on you can see on my computer the mock draft simulator, but I have trouble getting him for the Vikings without trading back trying to get multiple draft picks and moving back to the second. It seems to me like he's a guy, and I'd be interested in your opinion on who here in Indy has the best chance to take a big jump forward. Because when I watched him play, big 10 guy at Iowa's like, this guy looks like a star type of running back.

Do you think here he has a chance to separate himself? Because I just feel like the Vikings are not in a spot with their draft capital where he's going to be available to them. Yeah, I don't think so. I don't know if you would take him at 24 overall, right? So that's the problem. So but you're right. I think in a scheme like the Vikings run, like he could be very effective, I think. And he's a guy that like just glides whenever you watch his tape. He just is an incredible, incredible athlete out there. I like catches the ball to really good hands. And this is a lot because in Iowa office, it doesn't really throw the ball that well.

Like that's something that we talk about on our show a lot is like, okay, Caleb Johnson like is receiving numbers. Maybe aren't as good as someone else. But you gotta remember like Iowa's passing game is a disaster. So they gotta keep that in mind as well. Yeah. I like Caleb Johnson a lot. I think he could be a bell cow back. Like he, I think, um, Amari and Hampton from North Carolina, Jinty obviously those are your like your belt quinch out. Junkins could be like a bell cow running backs. I think Caleb Johnson has that potential as well.

So yeah, I think for Minnesota, I think a trade back and still get him in the second round. That would be a home run pick in my opinion. The other position that I'm asking everybody about is defensive tackle because this has been an obsession of the show to the point where I'm sure people are tired of hearing about it, but the fans obsess about the guards. I obsess about the DTs. The Vikings just haven't had a difference making defensive tackle since

Lindvold Joseph. It's been years now. And when I'm watching like everybody else, it's not just the Superbowl on a week to week basis. If you have those guys, if you have one of those guys who is an impact player in the middle, teams have no answer for them. Because on the other side, there's not enough guards in the world to stop the Grady Jarrett's or the Keem Hicks from a few years ago, or the Kenny Clarks at his prime. I'd like one, I'd like to watch one, I'd like to see it.

And this is the year, right? Yes, it is. It's a terrific year for D-Tackles. I think at the top again, like you have like an unbelievable prospect and basically grand that won't be available at number 24 overall, but the depth too. You got Walter Nolan. You got you got Kenneth Grant, the tackle from the other attacker from Michigan as well. Derek Carmen, a lot of people

like from Oregon. Darius Alexander had an awesome week at the senior bowl from Toledo. His tape backs it up as well. He's a phenomenal player. He's rising. I can see Darius Alexander maybe sneaking into the first round of this Roy, which is really, I didn't think I'd be saying that at this point of the year, but I've seen a lot of mock drafts

and talked to some people that really think he could be sneaking into that conversation. So yeah, it's a loaded classic. Tyler Williams is a really good run defending D Tackle as well. There's a lot of really good D Tackles, I think, in this draft. And even a guy like Deion Walker didn't have the best week at the senior bowl,

but I still think he's, he could have a big week at the combine this week. I actually interviewed him. He told me he's going to run a four six at 360 pounds. And I was like, if you do that Deion, you're going to be a top 10 pick. So I don't know if that's going to happen. Keep an eye on that if that does happen.

But he's a freak athlete though. Yeah. It's such a good year to need aackle. And I think honestly for the Vikings, to your biggest needs running back and de-tackle, these are great classes for both of them. So I think even though they only have four picks in the draft, they should come out with some two really good players. Outside of Walker, I've talked a lot about him on the show already because the freakishness really, I mean, that's at the top. And I think with that position, I just have to start with freakishness with, I mean, John Randall played here,

undersized, so forth, Aaron Donald, but who are mostly the guys who dominate? They're his size, they're like Dexter Lawrence is what they generally look like. So try to find one of those, but is there somebody who is the most intriguing to you? I was thinking about Omar Norman Lot, who I think is a really good as far as up the field type of penetrating type quickness. That's one that I'm watching for pretty closely. What do his numbers look

like? Who is it for you? Yeah, Norman Lot's a great call out. He was a really productive pass for sure at Tennessee this past year. And they kind of didn't really use him that much. Like they kind of use like a rotation of defense alignment out there. So even like James Pierce Jr. didn't get the amount of snaps I thought he should have gotten that rotation. So he's a guy I think has a really high ceiling and Trevor Second was a big fan of him as well. Yeah, there's a lot of guys. Jamari Caldwell from Oregon is a guy that I think could make some money here as well. He's a really athletic player I think. Yeah, like I said, it's just such a good year

to need to tackle overall that there are guys in the first round to get, obviously, then there are guys on day two that I'm like, yeah, that guy is gonna be a really good, probably starter in the NFL at some point. I mean, like I said, it's a really, really good year to tackle. So is there anyone at the cornerback position

that I should pay attention to? because the Vikings do need a corner and Amos is the guy from Ole Miss who is interesting to me and the reason he's interesting to me is I got him on a draft sim Okay, that's why that's why he's interesting to me I can't say I've grinded the Amos tape at the moment, but we'll get there eventually Not by the combine though. I've been too busy with quarterback discussions. Yeah, but we'll get there eventually. Not by the combine, though. A bit too busy with quarterback discussions. But it doesn't seem like there's going to be a lot of buzz other than Hunter for top cornerbacks. Yeah, it's weird because Will Johnson, people seem to be going lower on him lately. I don't really understand. He's actually on the TV. We're watching right now. But yeah, I think Will Johnson is a guy that I really am still a

huge fan of. I think, you know, the comp I made since his freshman year at Michigan when he was unreal was Pastor Tan and I still hold that. I think he really, Pastor Tan is one defensive player of the year, right? So Will Johnson maybe doesn't have the top end speed. And yes, the injuries over the last two years are a little concerning. Other than that, I'm like, I don't know what else you want from the guy, right? He's been like locked down in man coverage He's as smart as they come as well I I think will Johnson still a top 10 talent in this class and another guy just very interesting and it could be a Target for the Vikings is Ben Morrison This is a massive week for Ben Morrison the quarterback from Notre Dame because he had a hip injury that he needed surgery on The end of the season this past year and then I heard he needed a second surgery on it So medicals are huge for Ben Morrison. Because if they check out and if medicals come back and say, nope, he's good to go,

he's a top 20 player in this class. But if they don't check out well, he could slip to at least day two of the draft, if not a little further. I know you just upset my audience because they have memories of Andrew Booth Jr. who was a top 15-ish prospect, dropped in the second round because of the injuries, and the Vikings were like, nah, it'll be fine. And then on draft night, he said to us,

I haven't been healthy since high school. And we were like, what? What do you mean? Since when? And then in his first training camp, he got hurt. And then, you know, it never went anywhere from there. So the cornerback position, I feel like those guys get hurt as much as any position in the NFL. They're always flying around and falling down. And maybe it's the way their bodies have to be built, but I feel like it's the most constantly injured position,

which has always kind of scared me a little about drafting one very high because of that. And the Vikings missed on some through the years that they drafted high. I don't know. That's a position that I think has gotten a little interesting in the NFL because teams are playing so much zone. Yeah. Can a corner outside of five guys outside of the Marlin Humphrey or, uh, you know, you mentioned Pat Sertan, how many guys are really raising that level the same way a DT does? You have a dominant defensive tackle. I mean, you got a cheat code where corner they're not doing the old school

Rod Woodson versus, you know, whatever top wide receiver out there. It's so much different now. I feel like with the amount of zone that gets played in the NFL, there's such a high variance position as well. Like you mentioned, Metro D tackle with edge, like the thing that we said, a people like coverage is more valuable in the pass rush. But the problem is like the top corners every year kind of change, right? Even like sauce Gardner had a bad year, like a down year, at least this year by his standards. So it changes. So if you can find a corner, that's going to be a top five corner year in and year out that guy is incredibly valuable.

The problem is it's just not very common nowadays. But yeah, it's a problem with corners and like the problem with Ben Morrison, the hip injuries like there's not a lot of history with that. So we don't really there's some guys like Savon Revelle, the East Carolina corner. He tore his ACL. He should be good to go. I don't think he's working out the combo, but he should be good to go. By training, I can't believe his agent said, but that's an injury we know and we've seen players come back from. With Morrison, it's like, what does a corner look like? Because you need your hips as a corner, right? You've got to flip your hips a lot. So he's a guy that's very complicated, and I'm hoping it works out for him. Because like I said, he is truly, I think he's truly on the level of like a Will Johnson in this class if he's healthy. The problem is if he's healthy. Problem is if he's healthy though. Yeah, that's a position where I really feel like there's maybe one guy that I would,

if they picked him, feel like, oh, okay, they've got somebody that you feel safe about as a pick. But I don't think there's anyone outside, Johnson with the ceiling, but outside of Hunter where you'd go, okay, this guy could really move the needle. He could be next level.

I mean, you're looking for someone who's a cheap starter, who could be pretty good. But I don't know how high the ceiling is on any of these corners that are where the Vikings are going to be picking in the back end of the first round. So that that's a little tricky because they don't have any corners. Yeah, they have one. They have McKay Blackman and then Dwight McClothern, who they've developed. But but that's about it. Yeah, I wanted to go back to last year. I mentioned you and I had a conversation here at the Combine. Of course, we were talking quarterbacks.

It was such a fascinating Combine last year because you had Penix, JJ McCarthy was trying to make his case, and Bo Nix trying to show people that he has enough actual skill to be a first round pick, which he did. This year is so much different. I haven't talked to anybody yet who loves the quarterbacks for this year. Is that where you stand? I think Cam and Chador would be where the Bo Nicks Panics McCarthy tier would have been last year. So like if you want to take one of those guys in top five, it's basically taking one of those guys in top five. I like Chador the

most right now, but it's not the that by a lot. I think it's really a coin flip between the two of them. I think Chador presents a higher floor than a Cam Ward, who's a little bit too much of a gunslinger. I compare Cam Ward a lot to like a Jordan Love. Honestly, I think he's like just he makes unbelievable throws. He's capable of making unbelievable throws, but also there's a lot of head scratching overconfident throws in his tape as well. I think Chador doesn't really have that. Likeridhar is a guy's a very safe quarterback. He runs the offense really well Every mouth is fed when he's the quarterback as well Um, I just think he sees the game at such a high level, but the physical traits aren't great either

So like he's not going to be a top flight NFL quarterback. So it's weird. It's a weird class Again, I think it's in that kind of tier with the Panics and Nixon McCarthy It's not the Caleb Williams, Jaden Daniels, Drake, like we saw last year, right? I mean those three guys were on another level from what we almost ever see in any draft I mean sometimes you get two but usually you don't get three of that talent level I feel like there have been very few draft classes of quarterbacks ever that have instantly paid as much dividends as last year's did. I mean, even JJ McCarthy gets hurt, but his training camp and his preseason was really good. And he shows you, okay, that ceiling that they

talked about that he could develop into at this time last year. Cause last year, everyone I was talking to at nighttime, we go out and hang out with people. Everyone. I, that was my first question. How do you feel about McCarthy? What do you think about McCarthy? What do you think about McCarthy? And you knew, yeah, all the McCarthy lovers were like, the ceiling could be high. Yeah. And it was like, okay, well we've never really seen it, but then we started to see it in training camp. Then he gets hurt. Penics looked really good. Yes. Nix makes the playoffs. Is the ceiling crazy high? Probably not. But I mean, the guy makes playoffs his first year.

He looks pretty good. And then the top Caleb Williams has the worst argument and yet still flashed a ton of talent throughout his first year and the other two. I mean, May, I was so impressed with how he handled a horrible situation. Daniels is in the NFC championship. Is it what you thought it was going to be at this time last year? It's better, honestly, better. And if you told me one of them was gonna make the end of the title game I probably said Caleb Williams, right? I thought the Bears were poised to make a run

I think a lot of external factors kind of contributed to the down year I'm excited to see what Ben Johnson could do in Chicago this year with Caleb Williams But yeah, I think the fact that the one we feel the worst about is Caleb Williams It's just it's not really an indictment of Caleb Williams. More like how amazing everyone else was in this class, because you mentioned I mean, I thought Drake, I'm with you. Drake may how he handled that situation was amazing. Like that was OK.

That is a franchise quarterback right there. Now, maybe with more stability with Mike Rabel. We'll see what happens next year. But Jayden Daniels obviously looks like already maybe the top six or seven quarterback in the NFL already after his rookie year. You mentioned Penics looked awesome in relief of Kirk Cousins. And then yeah, there's other guys like Jayden McCarthy.

I'm excited about, I think that guy, you have all of the supporting ecosystem in Minnesota to make that guy a franchise quarterback. You got a heck of a duo in Addison and Justin Jefferson, obviously really good tackle duo as well. One of the best play callers in the sport and Kevin O'Connell, you have a lot to work with J.J. McCarthy. So I think he could be really good. And Bo Nicks, like I said, he was good. He's a perfect marriage with Sean Payton as well. Letting some playoffs and even their receiving corps isn't all that great right now either.

So they can add more to that receiving corps. So, yeah, I think all six teams have got to feel even if even though the Vikings even see anything from McCarthy, still got to feel really good about where you at with quarterback. Well, certainly when the Vikings were done with training camp, they were like, this guy's our franchise quarterback. I mean, Kevin O'Connell said that, which usually, you know, even though he can be very praising of his players and stuff, that's a, that's a different level. That's like, okay, you're not going that hyperbolic unless you actually believe it. The challenge for the Vikings right now is,

is it a good idea to put them right into the wolves? Sure. They try to do another bridge for another year, just in case he's not fully physically ready. Where are you at with that? What would you do? It's hard for me because I kind of want to leave that to whatever Kevin O'Connell decides is probably a good idea. Yes, fair.

Which is a hard place to be in this position. Just we're usually like, I'm second guessing that handoff on third down. Like it's our job, right, to like constantly second guess them. I think they know the medical situation. They know how far he's got to go physically. And they also know what they're they know how far he's got to go physically and they also know

what they're going to face next year which is a really difficult schedule but if they feel like he's ready as you mentioned it's not like they're running out a bunch of bums around him I just think it's a hard situation to be in for McCarthy where you didn't get to practice at all now you have to relearn all the stuff that you are had to learn year. You have to put on the weight again, which everybody saw on TV that he lost during his recovery from the knee injury. So where is he in terms of his actual recovery? We're recording this right before we go over and Kevin O'Connell will talk. So we'll hear from him a little bit later, but even then he's not going to like bring out diagrams and show us. Right? So I guess where I would stand on that is I'm not afraid of another year

of Sam Darnold. Most Vikings fans are. And they would hate that more than anything in the entire world because they want J.J. McCarthy. But the thing we talked about when McCarthy was drafted was like, it might take a year or two. Yeah. And just because he had a good training camp doesn't mean we should just throw all of that out of the idea of being as patient as possible. I am entirely on the side of whatever is best for J.J. McCarthy is exactly what they should do. I love that. You might be the first media member ever who admits that they don't know as much as much of the head coach.

I feel like everyone else is like, no, I know what they should do here. I think I know exactly what they should do. I'm with you. I think, man, those last two games hurt Darnold more than anyone else. Darnold almost sat out those last two games. He would have been making maybe 50 million a year. Like it was insane because the Lions game and obviously the playoff game against the Rams were disasters honestly. But yeah I thought he was good enough and it'd be interesting to see maybe maybe they tag him right and get another year out of him see what he's got and then maybe you could trade him after or something like that. That might be an option. I don't know if I would sign

Darnold to a long-term deal obviously with with McCarthy's in there still as well But yeah, it's a fascinating situation And I don't think they're gonna bring back Darnold what it sounds like at least it sounds like they're gonna be all in on J.J McCarthy, but man it's gonna be that's one of the most interesting developments think of the offices what Minnesota does a quarterback What do you think are the options for the Vikings with Darnold? I mean we go back and forth on this all the time I think that there's enough teams out there desperate for quarterbacks that they should be able to tag and trade I think yeah But it doesn't happen very often that you tag and trade guys the last quarterback for that to happen was

Matt Castle in 2009 so it's been a long time since there's been a tag in trade. But if I'm the Raiders, if I'm the Giants, if I'm the Titans, I've got to be thinking that I got nothing. Yeah. And I would not spend a first overall pick on Cam Ward and put my career on Cam Ward. So if you're Callahan, if you're Dable, if you're Pete Carroll's a hundred years old and Tom Brady doesn't want to lose, like I just feel like there will be here in Indy for Kevin O'Connell when he's hanging out with his football buddies and talking to these teams about like, oh, so what are you guys thinking at quarterback?

Somebody's got to be like, oh, I'm thinking the 68th overall pick, maybe. I don't know. I mean, I just feel like if you let him walk out the door and be a free agent, you get a third round comp pick, maybe. But if you also sign $40 million of free agents, it's going to cancel out your comp pick and you get nothing for this great decision you made of signing Sam Darnold to that one year

contract. I think the most interesting part about the whole Sam Darnold thing is that there are only two quarterbacks in this draft that you feel good about being starting caliber quarterbacks. So and there are more than two teams that need a quarterback. So that's the big thing as well. I guess a great point by you is like, yeah, tag and trade might be the smarts and they could do because there are so many desperate teams out there that say if like the Giants are probably gonna end up with one of the two of Kenmore or should or Sanders. But if somebody trades up to number two overall and the Titans take a quarterback and the other team takes a quarterback as well, Giants are screwed because all of a sudden Joe Shane and Brian Dable worth the owner John Mayer already coming on saying, hey, we don't take a quarterback, and the other team takes a quarterback as well. Giants are screwed, because all of a sudden, Joe Shane and Brian Dable, where the owner, John Mayer, are already coming out and saying, hey, we don't get a quarterback. You guys are fired.

It is, you got one more year, that's it. They are as desperate as they come, so they could be a team, if we get left at the altar with no bride and without Kam Watters, or Sanders, they might need to get a Sam Dardell, right? Like that, legit, but to save their jobs might be the only option. So tag and trade, I think is what I would do as well. But I don't know if

it will happen, but that's, I think for the Vikings to get as many assets as possible. And like I said, only four picks in this draft to get at least another top hundred pick, I think it was a smart thing to do. On the simulator, I got like six. I was able to get that, you know, at least four firsts for Darnold. Yeah, you know that little force trade button. You just hit that, get all the draft picks. No, I mean, you know, when it comes to using the simulator,

I was trying to work out a second round pick for Sam Darnold, but even if it's a third, you guarantee yourself a third, and it's higher than where the comp pick would be. And when Alex Smith was traded to Washington, it was a third and a player. Sounds good to me was traded to Washington, it was a third and a player. Sounds good to me. A third and a corner, a third and a guard.

No one's trading guards. Third and a corner. Like that sounds like a good type of deal if they can actually do it. What is the topic that you guys on your shows are discussing and arguing about the most here in Indy? What is the biggest intrigue? Because obviously you cover the entire league. Yeah. What has got your attention the most?

It's a good question. I think this draft is really fascinating in that, like, okay, there are blue chip talents, but they're not at the most viable positions. So how high do you take a blue chip talent versus a guy who plays a more viable position? Like, how high do you take a Travis Hunter who plays blue chip position? a guy who plays a more valuable position. Like how high do you take a Travis? Not Travis Hunter plays blue chip position. I've replaced two of them. But like Gentie, for example, I think Gentie is the second best player in the draft outside of Hunter. How high do you take that guy though?

Right. If you need a quarterback, you're probably taking a quarterback over Gentie. But like, do you take someone else like an edge rush over Gentie? Like there are guys in this draft that are going to be superstars. Like I think there's some people who think it's a down draft. It's really not that it's just just it's really good in niche positions, where it's not really the top and most viable positions. It's a loaded running back class.

It's a loaded D line class as well. I think the fascinating part to me is how high do you take a guy like Ash and Gentie, who is maybe the best prospect overall in the draft, but he plays running back. That, to me, is the most fascinating conversation here. I think that this draft is lacking in clickbait. It's lacking in like, I have the hottest quarterback take of all time. I'm going to be right about this. Then everyone's like, oh man, that's a hot take and everybody fights about it. There's not a whole lot of yell on TV type

of things when it comes to this. I remember the the Mel Kuyper and Todd McShea arguments where they would put them on TV and they'd scream at each other about Jimmy Claussen or something. There's just not that because it doesn't seem like anyone can get themselves around to caring much about these quarterbacks. And then after that, there isn't like a controversial prospect. And maybe they'll try to make one at some point, but there isn't the like, what do you do with this guy? Because he's so interesting.

Like, who is that other than Gentie? But I think we all agree, he's so good that someone's gonna draft it pretty high, right? Yeah, so that's the whole conversation. Is he good? Is how high do you take a running back? I think the other one too is like, okay, what do you do with Travis Hunter?

Like, do you play him at corner? Do you play him at wide receiver? Do you try him at both full time? Do you play one full time? The other one you play sparingly? Like, what do you do with him? That's the other one I'm kind of asking a lot of people right now. Yeah, it's kind of it's a it's a weird. It's a lot of interesting questions in this draft. But you're right. There's not a lot of like click bait.

Besides like Shador Sanders, obviously, he's always going to be the talk of the town here. But it's not like you said, there's not a lot of like QB three, for example, like you can ask anyone and you can give me like 10 different answers to QB three. And I'll be like, yeah, I get it. I completely understand. Like it's such a wide open draft in other areas. It's like, there's not a lot of arguments to be had. It's like, I understand where you're coming from. Cause I also have no idea honestly, for the answer either. I keep thinking last year, my stop trying to make that happen was Spencer Rattler. Stop trying to make Spencer Rattler happy guys. No one's taking a short 24 year old.

Doesn't have good stats, but the league very clearly drafts them in the first or the fifth. Yeah, like there's just not a lot of third round quarterbacks that we see these days. One or two, maybe a year, second rounders have almost disappeared. The second round quarterback used to happen a lot. It really doesn't anymore. It's either you're all in or you're kind of out. And so I feel like that that is going to be a huge golf this time where it's like those two guys are probably going to get taken in the first. And then I don't know, like people trying to make Jackson

Dart happen. I guess so maybe. But I mean, it's like, oh, well, I would take them in the back end of the second. You're like, they just don't do that. I mean, you just don't see that a lot. So and if you're taking a guy in the third, that would be like the equivalent of taking another position in the seventh. Right. Right. Because of the positional value is so high. So you got to fall pretty far. It's not that it doesn't happen. It's just that it's pretty rare. And again, there's nothing to really debate about because the third round quarterbacks are just not that interesting. There's no like, okay, one, Jalen Milrow. Yeah. Is there takes on Jalen Milrow? He's the most athletically gifted quarterback in this draft

by a good bit. He's just so raw. It's just like he had a rough senior role. I thought it was not great for him out there. The accuracy is all over the place. And honestly, I think a part of it, he's got small hands and I think he can't really grip a football all that well, obviously. And then he rockets it so hard that, like, the accuracy kind of sprays all over the place with that. So again, the arm talent is probably second to none in this draft. The mobility is obviously second to none in this. He might run a 4-4 at this combine. He's legit that fast.

Like, he's legit fast. But the tools are out of this world. To me, it reminds me so much of the Malik Willis conversation. In theory, Malik Willis is like a Josh Allen type of quarterback, but he's still so far away from getting there that I think Jaylen Miroz is a guy. It's interesting and he's worth a flyer on maybe day two, but I don't know. I don't know if he'll ever turn into a starter. I think he's the exact type of guy I was just describing,

where we're like, well, you should take him in the third or something, but probably the fifth. Probably the fifth or sixth. I just feel like when you've played as much football as he has over a couple of years, and you're having an Oklahoma game, where he's just throwing it to the other team. With a quarterback friendly coach, too.

Right. That was one thing, it was like, hey, you play for Saban, maybe now with, obviously Saban's an unbelievable coach, but you get Kailin DeBoer in there who made Michael Pettis Jr. a superstar and assassin like one of those efficient quarterbacks in America. I was very excited. I was like, oh my God, Jalen Miro, that could be like unbelievable. And it still was at a lot of the same wards. Right. So it's like, okay, maybe just he's still farther away than we thought for years. So that's another thing too. It's like, I think Milro is pretty far away. The thing is that because there were other quarterbacks in the recent

past where people at the combine asked, hey, Jalen Hurts, are you going to do running back drills? And it was like, didn't he throw 40 touchdowns or something? And you don't want to say that about quarterbacks because we've seen so many great athletes become great. I think Jalen Millrow could be a great running back. He is one of the best runners I feel like I've ever seen at this position, but I don't see it as a passer. So I don't know if he's going to be willing to do something like that or not. Okay. Well, since you've been here for already this long, one more question for you. What are you talking about with the free agent class? Because I look at it and go, Mike, you have a lot of money, but I don't see a lot of impact free agents the same way it was last year. What's your number one free agent

question? Wow. It feels like T.E. is going to get tagged. So he's a top free agent, but I don't think he's going to ever be a free agent. Right. So that's another, that's an interesting one. Trey Smith could make a lot of money. I think, um, from Kansas city obviously is a really good guard, but you're right I mean it's another weird class where like there's interesting quarterbacks like Darnold's obviously the headliner but then you got like Russell Wilson and Justin Fields from Pittsburgh are still out there Aaron Rodgers now is a free agent as well we're going to be at least so

yeah it's interesting I think it's an interesting year again there's not a lot of top end guys though so like I if I have a lot of money in free agency, I might try to spread it out over a lot of guys rather than overpaying for like one or two guys. I was just thinking the same thing, play in the second tier of free agency. And I think that's where the home runs can be. That's where the Blake Cashman, the Andrew Van Ginkle

for last year rather than the $27 million Christian Wilkins, which was an overpay for the Raiders. Max Chadwick, We could just keep shooting around ball things all day long. You've got other appearances to do. College football show on PFF. PFF analyst, pff.com. Stuff's up there. You probably got eight mock drafts on pff.com at this point. So maybe we should do a little quick sim before you go. What do we got here? Where's the simulator? I've got it on the number one pick. That's going to be Hunter you think? Or what do you think that's going to be? Oh, I think they're Carter. So I think they're going to go with cam ward. I think so. But it's weird because I heard

the G the past GM rank. Carthen really liked cam ward. He's not the GM there anymore. So I have no idea how the new GM feels obviously. But yeah, I think it might be a, it might be cam ward or should or Sanders too. Okay. I just pulled up the simulator Here's our options Derek Harmon love love O'Marian Hampton sort of love Grey's able is there okay Amos Darius Alexander. Who would you take I? Kind of like Derek Harmon. I think I think you're right there I think I he's a really good run defender really good pass rusher to like I mean you see those grades right there I mean he was outstanding this past year. I mean that a game against, Ohio State's a really good run defender, really good pass rusher too. I mean, you see those grades right there. I mean, he was outstanding this past year.

I mean, at a game against Ohio State, especially, he was really good. Yeah, I think Derek Harmon would be a fun pick for Minnesota 24. You didn't expect a random draft sim at the end of the podcast, but a way to read and react. Max, great to get together with you again. I'm really glad we could do this, and we will definitely do it again soon. I think we had a yawn other times throughout last offseason So we won't we won't wait till the next combine to do it for sure. So keep up the great work, man

We'll talk soon. Appreciate you do my favorite author. I Signed somebody's book last night. Did you I should have brought mine man. I keep forgetting to bring mine football is a numbers game It's saying go check it out. Thanks everybody and we'll catch y'all later from Indy football.