Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - PFF's Mike Renner talks about why the Vikings should draft a defensive lineman and Eric Smith on Justin Jefferson

Episode Date: February 9, 2021

Matthew Coller is joined by Pro Football Focus draft analyst Mike Renner to discuss what he took away from the Senior Bowl, why the Vikings should be looking at Kwity Paye and Christian Barmore in the NFL draft and why developmental quarterbacks in the middle rounds basically don't exist anymore. Also Eric Smith of Vikings.com comes by to discuss what draft analysts missed last year about Justin Jefferson and his offseason plan for the Vikings to get back into contention. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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when you want to hit the reset button, reach for the beer that is made to chill. Get Coors Light in the new look delivered straight to your door with Drizzly or Instacart, Coors Brewing Company, Golden, Colorado, and as always, celebrate. Hello and welcome to another episode of Purple Insider presented by Scout Logistics. I want to welcome in now for Pro Football Focus, the two-for-one podcast, one of my personal favorites, Mike Renner. What's up, Mike? Matthew, good to be back, man.

This is also, there's a sponsor for this now. I hope you back, man. This is also, there's a sponsor for this now. I hope you know, Mike. And this is sponsored by Scout Logistics. So this is the Scout Logistics Scouting Report. So this is the very first one. So you can be proud to be a part of it. First of all, I want to say that you guys are killing it on the podcast, really enjoying it. And I have always open in my tabs the draft guide. And you guys did incredible work, you and Austin Gale.

He's got the background stories. You have the scouting reports. So pff.com, people should immediately go and get that for draft season. And where I want to start with you is the Senior Bowl because it was good, Mike. I enjoyed watching the Senior Bowl game, and that is a first to actually say and I wonder what you came away with even though there were different circumstances than usual with the senior bowl what was your just biggest general takeaway from the senior bowl week well my my biggest takeaway was how sad I didn't get to go this year but no I I think I'm not sure there's any big takeaway I think the biggest

takeaway I get from it every week every year and the week itself is that it's very valuable like it is a very big we we lampoon the combine and the underwear olympics and that stuff but I think actually playing one-on-one a lot of the times in a very controlled environment, I guess, other guys who are going to be in the NFL without the advent of superior scheme, superior surrounding talent, those sort of things gives you great insight into who these guys are that can be difficult to discern sometimes on tape. So my biggest takeaway is that like my evaluations of a lot of those guys down there changed a lot that's interesting and i um get sort of introduced to a lot of guys that i didn't know before like who is taylor the

cornerback because wow looks like he can play and this year was not only that guy uh what keith taylor is his name who i think nobody had really paid any attention to until Daniel Jeremiah was frothing at the mouth over how he played in the Senior Bowl. But some of the defensive linemen in this class, I knew that it had been talked about as a defensive, especially defensive end and pass rusher class that was very impressive. And I've been, of course, investigating this from a Vikings perspective. But as I'm watching the Senior Bowl, it's like, this guy is good, and this guy is good, and this guy is good. I just thought that the defensive linemen were the winners of the week. Yeah, I think there were a number of them,

and obviously the drills are kind of set up for defensive linemen to look better. When it's the one-on-ones, just kind of the hit rate is the offensive line loses most of the time in the one-on-one if you are a true one-on-one matchup so yeah i think it is and i think it helped a lot of defensive linemen too because sort of in terms of draft talent down there the offensive line class had more of the top guys there down there than the defensive line class did a lot of the top defensive linemen still weren't even there. Like a lot, I think probably the top, I want to say six edge rushers on our board weren't even at the senior bowl still.

They were all underclassmen coming out or seniors who didn't end up going. So I do think that smaller school guys really impressed me down there. Cam Sample, guy from Tulane. Those guys are always the, like I said, the smaller school guys, guys who didn't play division, not division one, but NFL caliber tackles. They have the most to gain by going down there. Yeah, that's a good point. I wonder what you think about if the Vikings are not picking a defensive end

in the first round, which I want to get to some of those guys and who you think could be the candidates for that. But if they're not, that in the third and fourth, there seems to be some players that might fit in terms of being projects or guys that could step in to some sort of role right away. I was feeling this about Cooper from Ohio State. I know that he didn't have great numbers, but I'm seeing he looks very quick and maybe I'm overdoing it with some of the defensive ends. But I just thought that there were quite a few that stuck out to me where I

went, hey, who is this? He could be a Viking, right? They like defensive linemen in the fourth. Yeah, I do think it is that sort of deep defensive line class where usually you don't get guys in the third and fourth. Like the fact that they found Daniel Hunter is a rarity. If you just look at NFL history at the defensive line position or at the edge position, especially, it's not a lot of the guys who are the top, the upper echelon of pass rushers in the NFL get identified early because it takes an athletic,

it takes an athletic profile and physical skillset that everyone kind of realizes long arms and bursts. Those guys go early. Everyone knows that that's what translates. But I think in this class, there's probably about a dozen or so guys that fit that bill to where they're not all going to go in the first round. Like you just can't draft a dozen addressers in the first round.

So I think guys like – guys who are down there, like Carlos Basham from Wake Forest, could fall to the second, maybe the third round because he didn't play that well on tape this past year, but was number two on Bruce Feldman's freaks list and is 280 pounds with 34-plus-inch arms. A guy like the Houston edge rusher Peyton Turner turner built in a lab has 35 inch arms almost a seven foot i think over seven foot wingspan actually at six foot five only played four games this past year before getting hurt but was dominant in those four games at houston so yeah i think this year as opposed to others in the past that strategy of you're going to get better than a dj one in the third or fourth round this year, I think.

Yeah. I wonder where you think defensive line stands now in terms of your first round draft value. Cause this is something that we're always talking about with what is translating to wins. Like coverage is obviously the most important, but pass rush and coverage impact each other and trying to quantify how much the impact each other seems to be very difficult.

And when you're a team like the Vikings last year with rookie corners or inexperienced corners, and then you can't pressure the quarterback whatsoever, it would seem to me that the value of the position you're drafting also depends on your particular situation. Oh, 100%. But I do think there is almost an ease of positional, of position that you're drafting. Like kind of what I just said about edge rushers,

you can identify, there's a high hit rate, not necessarily a high hit rate, but like you can identify those guys well that will translate to the NFL. It's an easier position to scout than say a cornerback where oftentimes you're projecting into a completely different role. This guy may have only played spot drop zone in college. Now you're projecting him to a man's game.

He might have played exclusively press in college, and now you're projecting him to only play off in your defense. There's a lot more projection at some other positions, whereas pass rusher, you're one-on-one. Like that offensive tackle, you're one-on-one. You're getting a thousand snaps of that over the course of their career, just one-on-one interactions. And that's the exact same thing you're going to be doing no matter what level of football.

And I think there are some positions that you can just feel better about. And that's why offensive tackle, edge rusher, the guys that go in the first round are often the guys who end up being the elite tacklers in the NFL. Yeah, okay. So that makes sense to me that if the Vikings want to get a difference maker, probably drafting them in the fourth round as they've been doing, and nobody loves a fourth-round defensive lineman like the Vikings, but the thing is they actually had to play those guys this year,

and you had Jalen Holmes produce zero sacks. You had Jaleel Johnson produce nothing, and I think ranked dead last by PFF in grade. You had, as you mentioned, DJ Wanham gave them very little. Like, at some point, you need to probably move away from this. Let's find the next Daniil Hunter. And even Rick Spielman has talked about, well, we try to clone these guys with their athletic profiles and things like that. Like, look, man, there's no cloning daniel hunter that's like saying you know all we need is lawrence taylor that's all just you know we'll just find

that guy and then it'll be great like i i think that if you're doing that normally you're having to do that in the first round and i this is why i wanted to ask you about like give me the difference between some of these guys at the top because you've watched obviously a lot more than i have of gregory rousseau and quitty pay i've only seen a little of Quiddy Paye but I'm like that works that that I will select that because he looks like an absolute freak yeah I've compared him I mean physically kind of the way he plays is very reminiscent of Everson Griffin and that he's just he's gonna he's gonna hit you every single play he's a a very physical dude and a freak in his own right. He had that reported 6-3-7-3 cone that he actually sent us a video of

that is real. He actually did that one time, which I – unbelievable at 270 pounds to the way he moves and how explosive he is. Still learning the position, but I think that's kind of the M.O. of all the guys at the top of this class whether it's Pei, Rousseau, Jason Owe from Penn State, Jalen Phillips from Miami, Carlos Basham, Wake Forest. I think the most polished of the bunch if you're looking for who is maybe the most NFL ready who is

actually looks the best as a pass rusher in terms of doing the things you need to do with your hands and with the amount of moves that you have is Aziz Ojolari from Georgia, and he's 240 pounds, 6'2". Not even the freak athlete that some of those other guys are on that list. So he'll probably still go high, but that's not a position like they tried with Yannick Ngakwe. That's not what they do in their scheme. They need the edge setters. That's why they draft that skill set and that body type is because that's what works in Mike Zimmer's scheme. So yeah, I think the Pei, Rousseau, Owe, like I said, it's kind of going

to be in the eye of the beholder. And a lot's going to depend on your interviews with them and what you think, because they all really lack a polished game, but they're all just absurd athletes. I mean, actually rare athletes in terms of throughout the history of edge defenders. That Quitty Pate three-com, unlike anything I've ever seen. Jason Owe reportedly runs in the four threes at 250-some pounds and is 5% body fat. The guy's just absurdly different. I think Gregory Rousseau has something like 36-inch arms at 6'7". And so these guys are different, but they're just not necessarily good at rushing the passer just now.

It is remarkable to me how the uphill climb has gotten even more uphill for offensive linemen because it feels like every year we're going into the combine, and this year obviously it's not the same as usual. I'll be sad to not go to the combineine. But we're coming out of it going, wait a minute, they're edge rushers running four fours at 250 or 260 pounds. But now it seems like almost every single year. And the Vikings need much more of this. They also need interior rush.

And this is where it seems like there's a pretty big gulf of difference between the edge rushers who are available. And this might even be a trade down situation for the Vikings and then the defensive tackles where I was very intrigued by Christian Barmore during the you know college football playoff but I mean outside of that you mentioned Basham I mean it seems like there's just not that many guys who are interior rushers and this is a huge need for the Vikings. That's why, I'll give you a sneak peek, the mock draft is going to drop after Super Bowl.

I have the Vikings selecting Christian Barmore. Because of the scarcity at defensive tackle position, he is the one. The one guy you can, in this class, feel comfortable about ever rushing the passer at a high level in the NFL. And I think, I mean, you watch his tape against Notre Dame, and you watch his tape against Notre Dame, and you watch his tape against, gosh, the National Championship game against Ohio State. Two very good, two of the best interior offensive lines,

probably the two best actually outside of Alabama's interior offensive line in the country. And he just went to town on them. Like absolutely dominant. You don't need to watch much more of the tape than that to see what he's capable of. And the rest of his tape is also pretty good as well, but that was his best tape of the year. And the guy has all that physically.

So I don't think 14 is too high for him whatsoever. I put him in a class with Javon Kinlaw, Derek Brown, maybe even better than those two in terms of like where he could be because he's so good at a younger age than those guys were. So far more like, but like I said, after that, number two on our list on our top hundred is Lee McNeil at 45 overall. And he's, he's a project in his own right. Very athletic. He made Bruce Feldman's freaks list himself, but he is not a polished pass rusher. Like after that, there's,

if you told me there was not a single other difference maker five years from now as a pass rusher, I would not necessarily be surprised. It's just kind of a weak class. So that to me kind of puts him to the very top. And I like your selection there from the mock draft perspective. It's weird telling someone like, love your mock. But, you know, I think that it makes the world I live in. No, it's right. Right. Yeah. I saw somebody tweet Lance Zerline like that's the stupidest mock I've ever seen he's like but did you see the one from 2017 that was stupider yeah um so you know whatever but I think in terms of just judging what they need and what fits with the board Barmore makes so much sense um now I I want to know your feeling on how the quarterbacks early in this

draft are going to affect everything else. Because I think with the Vikings, as much as everyone would love to see them somehow land Trey Lance or something like that, that's probably not going to happen. Unless there's a Kirk Cousins trade and then the entire world blows up and we'll talk another time about that. But assuming that the Vikings are not interested, I feel like the stacking of great quarterback prospects at the top is just really beneficial for all the teams that are not taking a quarterback at the top. Oh, 100%.

It is a great year to need a quarterback, but also a great year to not need a quarterback because of that, because they're all going to go early. I believe. I think you'll see four in the top ten. I think that's how it ends up going. I don't think Lance slips. I don't think Field slips. I think, one, there's too big of a need, and people fall in love with what could be.

People fall in love with the thought of this guy could be the next Mahomes, the next Deshaun Watson. Will they? I don't know. They are very good prospects, I will say. But I think with how the NFL has gone and what we saw this year with the final four teams being probably the four of the five best quarterbacks in the NFL this past season, teams realize, hey, I need to go get that guy, that caliber of quarterback to be in that mix.

But I didn't think there would be as much jostling at the quarterback position pre-draft, but there might be some legit, like, movement. I didn't see Goff moving, and especially not that quickly after the season. So there might be some legit movement to where teams may not necessarily have that need. It might not be that desperate, so you might not see, like, big trade-ups and whatnot, but I still don't think those four guys at the top fall outside the top ten.

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All of their apparel is screen printed here in Minnesota on super soft, super comfy shirts and hoodies. You will love it. That is S-O-T-A-S-T-I-C-K.com. Original Minnesota sports inspired goods. Code Purple Insider for free shipping. Are you thinking that Fields or Wilson goes higher? I think Wilson goes higher. Based off of just what the NFL,

how the NFL evaluates the position. I guess it would be how Joe Douglas, the Jets GM evaluates the position. Cause that's really all that matters at that point. I think he went with the bigger arm quarterback, whatever in the fourth round last year, I think he goes with the bigger armed quarterback and not that Justin Fields doesn't have a big arm, but Wilson,

what he can do just in terms of his off-platform arm talent, just making throws with solely his arm is pretty special. I enjoyed Zach Wilson so much that I was out at one point, and I called up on an app to listen to the radio broadcast just to see what they were saying on the BYU broadcast about Zach Wilson. He was really one of the most fun college players to watch, but also like a rocket arm and that playmaking that everyone's looking for. And I've been thinking about this a lot with Mac Jones,

that maybe even a few years ago teams would have been more into Mac Jones than they would be, maybe not necessarily Zach Wilson because he's really got a special arm, but these sort of like a Trey Lance or something would not be as attractive because everyone was into, like, can he run our offense? Can he execute our offense? Can he be accurate? And can he be the leader?

Is he a winner? And that sort of thing. And now I think everyone watched Josh Allen, and they watched Mahomes, and they watched Justin Herbert, and they're like, okay, I need one of those. That's the only thing that's going to win here. Yeah, I think I had this take that Josh Allen made Trey Lance a ton of money. You know? Yeah.

Like the fact that he came good this year, everyone thinks Trey Lance, biggest arm in the draft, maybe the best runner at the quarterback position in the draft, I can mold him into an NFL quarterback. Can you? I don't know. It remains to be seen. There's a steep history of those guys not working out as well.

But I think everyone wants to try because the payoff is so big, as we saw with the Bills this year. So, yeah, and I agree that in the past, guys like Mac Jones, who were just efficient, fairly accurate with the football weren't going to open up your offense but whatever they can they can win from the pocket the whole everyone for the vast majority of NFL history always said you have to win from the pocket if you're going to win the NFL right and now it's flipped on its head where that guy has gotten almost underrated the really guys who are that efficient and good from the pocket.

But I still think someone like the desperation still is going to win out with Mac Jones. I still think he goes somewhere in the first round. It's interesting because it wasn't too long ago we were watching, maybe a year ago, that we were watching a pocket quarterback in the Super Bowl and the NFC, and we were watching the year before Jared Goff a pocket quarterback who you know the offense is built around him but it just doesn't feel like there's a sustainability to that from year to year it's like everything has to click for you and the minute it doesn't you end up with well the Vikings have kind of gone through this with Kirk Cousins and I just I wonder about the the situation with Cousins

and whether the Vikings would consider drafting someone else somewhere else other than the first round. I would be totally shocked if they took Mac Jones or something at 14. But is there anybody else worth talking about? Because I went back and I poked around those guys that we love. I think last year I was like, Tyler Huntley, kind of intriguing. And like, who cares, right? guys that we love I think last year I was like Tyler Huntley kind of intriguing and like who cares right I mean just like every year we get into the like who's gonna be who's gonna be our guy um from the seventh round or the the fifth round or something but even if you're drafting

one in the third it seems like it's almost useless so is there anybody even worth talking about that is not a first round quarterback that the Vikings could take as someone to develop behind Cousins if they're going that route? Yeah, I think the days of drafting and developing a quarterback are pretty much over. The NFL is good at identifying quarterback talent, similar to edge talent, and they're more desperate now. So they draft any guy that has a chance in the first round. I think I went back and looked, and over the past decade, there's only been four guys who you could even deem quality starters in the NFL is Russell Wilson, Kirk Cousins, Dak Prescott and Derek Carr that were drafted outside the first round and that's it like no one else over that time span has done much of anything drafted outside the first round so it's rare to find that guy I think in this class

the two guys I would mention that could be that guy, one being Jamie Newman from Wake Forest slash Georgia or whatever, just because physically I think he has those tools. His ability to run an offense is a question. The Wake Forest offense was all RPOs, but he's accurate with football and has a fairly big arm and can run. That's a good starting point for the quarterback position. And I'd also throw Davis Mills from Stanford, declared early. So he has some fans in the NFL in terms of evaluation.

He's only made 10 career starts, was a former five-star recruit. And he actually had one of the quickest time to throw. He operates an offense quickly. He's just not athletic at all. No escapability outside the pocket. Big quintessential pocket quarterback and doesn't have a big arm in his own right. But I think the sort of – it's kind of the – in the NBA draft, everyone falls in love with the guy that's barely played at all

because, oh, what he could be. That's kind of the same thing with Davis Mills. Five-star with only 10 career starts is like, oh, what could he be once he gets to the NFL and once he actually develops, maybe when that light switch flips on. I also think when you say not athletic at all, all Vikings fans just shut off the podcast. Just like, nope, I'm not listening to anything more about this guy because they've been dealing with that. Not a big arm, not athletic.

And you see some of the limitations that exist there with Kirk Cousins. So like, why do it for another guy? But there is always the contract issue that sort of plays into it. But I'm in agreement in that if you're looking back in any sort of recent history, I mean, we're just getting better at a lot of things, I think, with scouting and analytics and all the data that they have. And I've been, and I think I've mentioned this to you before, you know that I have draft nihilism, where I say, like, look, we can't control it. You know, you could think that we can know all these different things, but sometimes Josh Rosen becomes a great quarterback, and sometimes he blows up in my face

because I thought he was going to be good, right? Like nobody's consistently good at this. But I wonder, since you cover this closer than I do, if you see patterns. Because recently, since the 2015 draft, really, the patterns have not been good for the Vikings. There's just a lot of things. I counted this up. 17 players on defense that they've drafted since 2015 and zero matter that's that's not great right so i i wonder if there's anything that you notice that any team is doing to be ahead or to be a little bit wiser just by percentage points that the vikings should be doing

i think the one thing that thought was the most interesting heading into last year was the Colts' strategy towards the draft. One, just accumulating a lot of draft capital. They trade back more than anyone. And two, they use that draft capital on the defensive side of the ball on athletic guys. Purely, they pretty much did not or haven't drafted anyone that's not either extremely long or extremely athletic like they only draft guys in that mold obviously had a top five defense in the NFL this past season so I think it's just an interesting way of they they kind of realize

the strategy of how defenses especially guys outside of the coverage players. Coverage players are a weak link sort of proposition where if you have one guy who's an extreme liability, he gets targeted the most. Like a lot of funnels towards that guy. So having your weakest player be average still, maybe you don't need elite high-end guys, but your weakest player still be good is a big value add. And so they've been throwing just resources at athletes on the defensive side of the ball.

And I thought that was an interesting strategy. Like in terms of like big trends, I'm not sure I've seen much outside of like the valuation of the quarterback position being a big trend where guys just like they go, they've gone earlier than ever before. People are more willing to take those chances, I think, than ever before people are more willing to take those chances i think than ever before i think um the vikings chasing 2015 has been a little bit of their issue where they had this one draft that went really well so they said you know what we should just only ever draft receivers in the fifth or the sixth because stacy coley and rodney adams like they'll be the next

stefan diggs the thing is you know there isn't nope. There's not an ex-Stefan Diggs. There isn't an ex-Deneal Hunter, probably not even an ex-Eric Hendricks, because if Eric Hendricks was coming out now, everyone would say he was a first round pick. The only reason he was in the second was because of his size and everyone sort of figured that out. So it's, it's like you were accidentally, maybe ahead of the curve a little, but then, and then, you know, outsmarting themselves like Antoine Winfield Jr.

was just kind of perfect for them instead of franchise tagging Anthony Harris. And they said, no, let's, let's go with our, our guy instead. So things like that, I think are worth criticizing a bit, but most of the time it's you draft a guy and, and, you know, taking a center in the first round who can only run block, like those kinds of things are worth criticizing. And then other things you kind of go, I don't know. Ezra Cleveland, they randomly decided he was a guard.

I don't know. So that was the last thing I wanted to ask you, Mike, is just Jeff Gladney, Cam Dantzler, Ezra Cleveland. These are three extremely huge pieces to the Vikings in whether they succeed or fail going forward. Is there any way to get a feeling on those guys? I mean, they all had in some ways ups and downs through their first season. And I don't have a good sense for are these guys going to really turn out

and be centerpieces to this roster? Or is it going to kind of go the way that it's gone with some recent drafts for them? I actually really like Cameron Dantzler. He ended up finishing second highest graded rookie cornerback. I thought after that, the injury he had against Green Bay came back. Once he came back, I thought he looked like a different player. I thought you saw the playmaking ability down the stretch.

Yes, he's not the fastest. He did get burned at times. But I think he's still a good fit for Mike Zimmer's defense and a very smart cornerback in his own right. So I do think that that's the guy I'd be the most excited about of all those guys. I still think Ezra Cleveland, you kind of knew going in year one wasn't going to be his year. And he obviously switched positions year one too.

He was a project, was an athletic project. So he did still grade out well as a run block before year one. Looked strong still compared to NFL competition, which is always kind of a thing. It's like, yeah, you played at Boise State, you looked strong against guys at Boise State. Does that happen in the NFL? Yes, it did. So I think that's a reason to be encouraged as well.

The one guy I'd be worried about is Jeff Gladney. The fact that, one, he's immediately not starting over your third-round pick, who was obviously drafted two rounds later, and Gladney was the guy who was – not that he was supposed to be necessarily super NFL ready, but he had been tested a bunch. Like he had played four years of ball at TCU. You would expect that guy to come in and pick stuff up quickly. Like he should have at least a veteran-ness to him. You're not drafting a pure guy who one year of starting,

maybe the game's coming slow to him no he should have like it should have been better than that year one i thought so that's the one guy i'd worry about the fact that he couldn't uh just didn't end up playing well over the course of the season where i was concerned is making the same mistakes twice at the end of the season and at the beginning of the season you know there were like receivers would use their sort of leverage against him and you'd be saying on tape like he's going to break back to the inside man he's stemming you out like you need to know these things and Zimmer would say like well they need to get closer tighter and coverage it's like yeah but you have to recognize

those things first keeping his eyes in the backfield on play actions and getting roasted like it kept happening so that was where I kind of had a little bit of hesitation and where Vikings fans are very sad about Antoine Winfield Jr. playing in the Super Bowl. So anyway, Mike, awesome stuff as always. Two for one draft podcast with you and Austin Gale is a must listen. And the draft guide is just ridiculous. It's I don't know how you do that. It's massive and it has so much detail and I use it all the way through draft season. It's just great. So you do awesome work.

We'll connect again soon before the draft man and just keep it up. For sure. Appreciate you having me on Matthew. Hey, I want to take a second to tell you about our friends at Scout Logistics. And I really mean it when I say friends, they are fans tell you about our friends at Scout Logistics. And I really mean it when I say friends. They are fans of Purple Insider over at Scout Logistics, and they reached out wanting to support this show.

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which people should still go back and find, where you interviewed all the quarterbacks who threw touchdowns to Randy Moss. And I thought that was a great piece. So Google it. See if you can find it. It's really good. And you've got another one where you talk to draft analysts about Justin Jefferson and his time going through the draft process and how he ended up where he ended up being drafted and of course a huge steal for the Vikings so we'll get to that but I want

to do some fun offseason stuff with you first I've got a couple of things that are let's call them scenarios to throw at you and I want you to tell me what you think is kind of the most likely or maybe the best route for the Vikings so I I want to start out with this, Eric. Let's say the Vikings are able to create $20 million in cap space, and that includes a couple of players like Riley Reif, Kyle Rudolph not necessarily being here, and so they have $20 million in cap space. I want to know the first place you would spend that 20 million dollars on this Vikings roster that's a good one uh I'm gonna spend it two places I'm gonna divvy it up and I'm gonna

kind of allocate my resources towards the trenches and go with both the offensive and defensive line we know that the Vikings offense was good in in 2020 it wasn't bad it was good but it could have been great, I think, if the line just played a little better, and there were good pieces. I thought Brian O'Neill played well. You mentioned Reef. I thought he did a good job. I thought Garrett Bradbury took a step forward in his second season, and I thought Ezra Cleveland, you know, he was a rookie. He had his ups and downs, but overall, I thought he did okay. You know, Dozier struggled a little bit. You know, it's tough for me to say that because he's such a good guy,

but it's pretty obvious that he kind of had his ups and downs. So I'd go offensive line because I feel like if you can solidify the line, and whether that's in free agency with this extra $20 million or in the draft, just one of those two areas, if you can improve the line, improve the blocking for Dalvin Cook and Kirk Cousins, both in run or the draft, just one of those two areas. If you can improve the line, improve the blocking for Dalvin Cook and Kirk Cousins, both in run or the pass, then I think the offense can take a better step forward in 2021 and be great.

Instead of being good, they can be great. But you also have to address the defensive line, and we'll see what happens with Michael Pierce and Daniel Hunter, if they come back healthy and all that that remains to be seen but the defensive line was not good in 2020 everyone has said that Mike Zimmer has said it himself and I think if you can get a few more pieces whether that's a free agent you know a mid-tier free agent or a first round edge rusher in the draft that's been a popular pick for mock drafts early on if you can shore up the d-line then that will just improve i think the overall defense help those young corners

um so yeah i'd start in the trenches and um i think most people probably would too yeah i agree with you and so i guess i should be more specific then about the offensive line because if they move on from reef then it creates kind of a big shuffle then you've got to decide are you playing Ezra Cleveland at left tackle and then replacing both guard positions and how are you keeping the depth also if Rashad Hill hits the free agent market he's been very good depth for them and so then you feel like you've got to go find another veteran depth player if Rashad Hill is going elsewhere. So let's talk about the two cases, and then we can get to the defensive line. If Riley Reif stays and they rework his contract, for me, there's two ways to go about this. It's

chase the big fish. There are two really good guards in Joe Thune and Brandon Shrepp that they could go after. Or there is the, let's try to find a guy who maybe isn't going to get paid as much but can give you average play. Let's call it the Josh Klein route. Josh Klein was actually a hit for them, I think, in free agency with what they paid versus what they got. It's just that I think his career is over because he had some injuries that year, and that would be the only reason I can think that no one signed him after that

or the Vikings cut him. So if it's the first route of Reef staying, it seems like it's kind of a straightforward proposition, either find a veteran who can fill the spot or go all in. If he does not stay, then all hell breaks loose a little bit, Eric. Yeah, if Reef stays, I think it's pretty clear and obvious that four of the five starters from last year are back, and I think even Dozier could be back too in maybe a spot start role, a backup role. We'll have to see what happens, but

assuming Reef is back, then yeah, it'll be Reef, Bradbury, Cleveland, and O'Neal probably in the same spots they played this year, unless they want to move Cleveland to left tackle but him having only played right tackle let's just keep him over there on the right side so yeah that means they have to either draft the guy in the first round or sign a free agent like you said if they can get one of the two big fish yeah that instantly improves the line but I think that's maybe a little easier said than done right now just because you know money is always an issue and with the cap potentially going down you know we have to see what that what that falls at if it's the other scenario where Reef does not stay you know the Vikings choose to move on then yeah then I think it becomes a little bit of musical chairs and I've thought about it I don't know what the best scenario is at this point,

because I think you have to see who they bring in and then decide where people play. I don't think you can just immediately say, okay, Ezra is going to be our left tackle because he didn't play there hardly at all, even in practice. And it's tough to go from not only the left guard to left tackle, but right guard all the way over to left tackle. That's, that's a big jump. And I thought he played well on the right side. And I think if you keep Bradbury, Cleveland and O'Neill together on the right side, that's a solid young trio, you know, of guys who are probably ascending.

So yeah, if Reese goes, then it's probably three of five linemen. They're still here from last year and they got to fill two spots. And, you know, maybe then if he's not here, then it increases the odds of drafting alignment in the first round. I know that the guy from USC, Vera Tucker, his last name is Vera Tucker. He's been, he's been linked to the team a little bit here and there, and he can play guard and tackle. And we all know how much the Vikings like flexible linemen

who can play multiple spots. So we'll see. I mean, I'm interested to see what direction they go with, you know, with Reef and, you know, the cap and all that. It's certainly more different than any other year just because no one really thought the cap would ever be going down. Right. But here we are

so um you know we got a couple weeks to get that all figured out and you know i always joke about this you know i wrote this and uh i wrote about the offensive line and a season recap and i led it with well it's the offensive line so it's always in focus in minnesota and that's always in the five seasons that i've been here there's always a spotlight on the offensive line yeah um same here uh it's actually remarkable how often we're talking about you know the same even just the same position of left guard over and over and over again and yeah that this is where it gets really interesting because in this year's drafts it's different from past years where I think we had a

really good sense of where they were going to go. Even when they drafted Delvin Cook and Pat Alfline, we knew that there was an offensive line need, and we knew that there was a running back need with Adrian Peterson leaving that year. And you look at last year, and we'll talk about Jefferson in a second, but it was very clear that they were drafting a wide receiver in the first round. And the same went for a cornerback with their two starting cornerbacks leaving. And that's the thing that's hard to figure out right now when you're doing your mock drafts and your draft simulations is, well, how is this going to play out with free agency? But I also think that this team, Eric, is in a unique position that neither you or I have ever covered since we've been around this team, is best player available in the first round, because there are just so many

spots that you could make a good case for, even on Twitter, if someone was making the case for a cornerback, and I know people would lose their minds if they drafted Caleb Fairley or Patrick Sertain, but I mean, there's an argument for it, right? So it's not, could they draft a tackle or a guard? Like, absolutely. Could they draft a defensive lineman, which we'll discuss in a second? Could they draft a corner? It's like, this is such a unique position for you and I,

because usually it's very easy to guess which direction they're going. It is. It is. And like you said, you could almost pinpoint in recent years, at least one or two solid positions that the vikings were going to pick in the first round and this year yeah it feels like like you said more than any other year we've been here that what they do in free agency and march and in the next six weeks from the time you and i are chatting now that will define what they do then at the end of april in the draft and usually you know we kind of knew at the end of last year that there'd be a focus on the cornerbacks or that

there needed to be another wide receiver brought in this year like you said yeah it could be left tackle left guard right guard you know um defensive tackle defensive end cornerback safety you know we have to see what happens with Anthony Harris. I mean, that's six, seven positions right there. And at 14, there's going to be a bunch of people there. It's not like you're picking 29 or 25 like you were a year ago, or, you know, Jefferson was 22. So there's going to be more talent available at that spot.

And like you said, maybe it is best player available. Maybe that's the pick. And until we get there, we don't know. And it really makes it intriguing. And there's also a possibility, and this is where the Vikings, I think, are in a decent spot, is that there's going to be four quarterbacks probably taken before them, at least three, but maybe four, which leaves you with, simple math,

getting a top 10 non-quarterback player in this draft. And so that kind of helps. And maybe even Mac Jones helped himself enough at the Senior Bowl to have some team like Denver, say, that needs a long-term quarterback or Carolina that might be looking at a long-term quarterback. If those quarterbacks fly off the board, you're talking about having an opportunity to just pick the most talented player and then find a way to fit them in, which you probably can because there's enough open spaces. Now on the defensive line,

this is where things get very interesting because of the Daniil Hunter situation. And whether he goes or stays, it's kind of the same thing as Riley Reif of if he goes because of the contract situation, then wow, you've got a lot of work to do. If he doesn't, it feels like a lot less. But I think, Eric, that a veteran pass rusher, regardless of that situation, a situational type of rusher, a role player there would be really important for this team. Last year they decided to kind of get the big fish in Ngakwe, and that didn't work out. So maybe this year, find someone who is a 40% of the time type of pass rusher who's been around, who's been doing it in free agency, and then pair them with your

draft picks in a draft that has a lot of defensive ends to it. Yeah, one thing that Mike Zimmer, and you know this as well as I do, one thing Zimmer always says is you can never have enough cornerbacks, and his philosophy and Andre Patterson, it's all about coverage and rush, rush and coverage. That's something we've heard for years, and, you know, the Vikings addressed the cornerback spot last year in the draft with three guys, but they didn't really get anyone to rush the passer that they really made an impact. And I mean, I think Wadham has some bright spots, but you know, he could probably take a step forward,

but you look around at all the teams that have success on defense and they have a rotation of guys. Sure. Everyone wants to have two pro bowl edge rushers on each side. You know, everyone wants to have a Hunter and a griffin like when we had a few years ago but that's really hard to do because of money of you know just making it all work and i think yeah if if daniel comes back and they have want them and they draft someone on even if they draft the defensive end in the first round sure i don't mind the idea of going getting another you know like we said a mid-tier free agent

pass rusher and just rotate guys in why not constantly put pressure on the quarterback rather than rely on just one or two guys to do it because as we've seen they can chip they can chip them you know they can double team them but if you have multiple guys kind of like what we saw with um probably like in 2017 when Daniil was really starting to take off in his second season and it was Daniil, Everson, and B-Rob and that's three pretty solid pass rushers and they moved B-Rob inside and the defense was great and the defensive line was great so yeah I want to you know stack the deck add up you know add it all together and bring in as many quality pass rushers as we can because you know that add it all together and bring in as many quality pass

rushers as we can, because, you know, that's the way to win is to get pressure on the quarterback. And the challenge here is the dollars that you have to work with versus how you need to allocate them. And so I sort of started with a just random number that I plucked out of the air of $20 million to work with. But I think what we've seen teams do and the Vikings did this the Josh Klein signing is sort of a good example of it we've what we've seen teams do is find these veteran players who are average or decent at a thing and then bring them in for a fairly cheap dollar I mean last year I included this list in an article that I did about the cornerbacks but last year you know Ron Darby signed for $3 million.

And Dre Kirkpatrick signed for $1.1 million. And Mackenzie Alexander signed in Cincinnati for $4 million. Like, these guys, the second wave of free agency, I always feel like is much better than the first. Of course, you guys at Vikings.com, me, we're all going to hype up the beginning of it and like, all right, free agency has begun ring the bell here we go who are the big players that are getting signed I think this team is in

a much better position to let the first two or three days go and see who's left on the table and it felt like last year they didn't pluck some of those guys that were there for the having that maybe this year they're going to change that mindset. Agreed. And a player that always comes to mind, I know we're talking about the offensive and defensive line and all that, but a player that always comes to my mind in that scenario that you laid out is Case Keenum. Yeah. When Case Keenum was signed, there was hardly any fanfare about it.

He had struggled a lot with the Rams and hadn't really played well, hadn't really won many games actually as a starter. And there was no hype. There was no hoopla when we signed. A lot of us were like, you know, we knew him from Houston, right, in college and just putting up all those crazy numbers. And look what he did. You know, he magically gets thrust in there as a starter,

takes us on a wild ride to the NFC title game. No one would have predicted that when we signed him in that second, it might have been even in the third wave of free agency back in 2017. So yeah, sometimes there's always, you know, hidden nuggets in that second and third wave. And like you said, I think the Vikings, that's kind of when they're going to have to make hay and find some sweet spots in that area. Okay, before I ask you about your Jefferson piece, tell me the thing in the offseason that you are the most interested in, in the NFL, not just with the Minnesota Vikings, but in the entire league that you sort of can't wait to find out

now that we're like really into offseason mode. Yeah, I think just like any other football fan, I want to see where Deshaun Watson ends up. And that's if Houston trades him. You know, I'm not fully sold that they are because they – why would you want to trade someone like that? You know, if I'm just guessing, I think he probably will get traded because he's clearly unhappy there,

but where he ends up and, you know, that could have a domino effect on multiple other teams across the NFL, depending on how that shakes out. And I know he's been, you know, linked to the Bears. If he comes in the NFC North, you know, and then it's like, Hey, not only did Watson get traded, but now we have to see him twice a year. And we saw him this year and he played well in that. I think it was week four down in Houston. He played well in that game. Even though the Vikings won. So yeah, probably seeing where he,

where he ends up, you know, but like I said, probably like 95% of other football fans are wondering. Right. Right. Exactly. Right, right, exactly. With the Bears, they're at the very top of my list because I feel like no one's talking about them in terms of the intrigue for their quarterback position. Maybe it's just because we all assume they'll screw it up, that they'll end up with the next Eric Kramer or Steve Walsh or something.

But they have to be at some point a major player for quarterback because they're in desperation mode. And yet I still see Ryan Fitzpatrick coming to the NFC North. I don't know about you. I don't know what your guess is for the Bears quarterback situation. But I think it's sort of fascinating that you're going to have Rodgers 99% chances back, Kirk 99% chances back, but then the other two teams with new quarterbacks that kind of adds a different dynamic to the nfc north yeah and i'll add it's going to be really

weird seeing someone other than matthew stafford as yes you know reportedly as the as the quarterback oh yeah i'm sure it's not official yet right not not till march 17th uh as the quarterback for the Lions, because even before I got here, he was the person you thought about when you thought about the Lions. After Barry Sanders and Calvin Johnson, it's him being the number one overall pick. One thing I wanted to add, and this is real off topic, but you brought up Eric Kramer. So I actually grew up in Southern California california which you know in a town called thousand oaks and i played one year of high school football my freshman year and i had a friend whose dad somehow knew eric kramer so i went to a few like saturday morning like passing camp sessions with him where he like drew us plays on the whiteboard and then we like went out and like ran stuff and I'm like some scrawny 13 year old kid like athletic but not

that athletic I wasn't going places so yeah I I I know you I know you talk about Eric Kramer a lot on the pod and all the time I wanted to give him a little shout out he is one of my favorite polls because he was like just you know this, this journeyman quarterback who was, he was Fitzpatricky where he was good enough to be your quarterback, but not really good enough to be your franchise quarterback. So he would bounce around and he had his moments with Detroit, with Chicago. So I, yeah, you're probably right that I do pull out Eric Kramer from time to time.

And that's why, because you never know where your journeyman connection is going to be. That's hilarious. I got one right there. That's amazing. That's great. That's why I love journeyman quarterbacks. There's always some connection. Let's talk about your Justin Jefferson piece, a massive article that you worked on here, Vikings.com, the rise of Justin Jefferson. And you talked to draft experts about his draft process and where he was ranked and where he got drafted, all those things.

And Jefferson has a chip on the shoulder about it, a big one about where he was drafted. But I wonder what your biggest takeaway was. Actually, I'll tell you mine. You can react. Tell me if you agree. If someone only plays the slot in college, that doesn't mean they can only play the slot. That's my biggest takeaway is don't pigeonhole a player just because of how their college football team decided that they were going to be used agree agree and that topic that area came up so much when i talked to these five draft experts and i think a lot of us kind of maybe didn't believe it but that was certainly a major storyline with

him coming right out um coming coming out of the draft. I remember writing a story for Vikings.com, and the headline was something like, Jefferson ready to play outside as well as the slot. Everyone just assumed, okay, he played in the slot at LSU, and I forget which analyst I talked to said it was like 93% of the time at LSU in his final season. And then he comes in and only played, I think it was maybe a quarter of the snap with the Vikings in the slot.

So he showed, yeah, he can win in the slot. He can win outside. My biggest takeaway was actually a guy that you helped connect me with, and that's Chris Trapasso of CBS Sports and not to bag on Chris but I just really appreciated his honesty because he had Jefferson as his number 12 overall wide receiver heading into the draft and with how deep the wide receiver class was a year ago that was good enough to be a late second round grade which is pretty solid for any other season but him and I just had had some good laughs about how he you know he said I got to take the L on this um and that's but I think maybe if people didn't get it as wrong as Chris I think most people got it wrong because if anyone knew he was going to do this he would have been one of

the first one or two wide receivers taken and I'll throw myself in that mix I thought it was going to be good I'm sure you did too but 1400 yards I think we can both admit we didn't probably see that coming yeah breaking all the rookie records I didn't you know have that in my write that down predictions but you know when it comes to Jefferson I was very high on him I did a one of these one of the very first podcasts of Purple Insider was with Donald Jones, former NFL wide receiver, where we watched Justin Jefferson tape. And so I was just trusting Donald and his eyes. And he really loved a lot of the things that he saw, especially the sort of playmaker element

of Jefferson. And this is another point where we get really into, and especially the Raiders may be drafting Henry Ruggs first here, or remember John Ross being taken in the top 10. We get really into that combine. And I wonder if the lack of combine will save some teams from themselves this year. It's so into the 4-2-9, man. I mean, that's so fast, right?

And you sort of miss the forest through the trees with a guy who, like, had a natural ability to just catch the football and make plays with it. And to get off the line of scrimmage was the question when he was on the outside. But he's so fast and he's so strong that it was never an issue this year with Jefferson getting off the line of scrimmage. So it was almost like – and the same thing for Jalen Rager, like you're really missing the production element of this that should be important that a guy who's great in college not always means they're going to succeed.

But if they have the athletic profile too, like don't overthink this sometimes for NFL teams. For sure. And you mentioned the combine. There were some question marks about Jefferson going in, but then he went and ran, I think, with a 4-4-3. Right. And so why didn't that move him up teams boards, right? Like everyone was wondering, oh, is he just like a system guy, like an LSU system guy? He can only play in the slot. He's not that fast. Well, then you see him at the Combine, and he looks like the best guy out there, you know, catching passes.

And, you know, the Combine is not an NFL game, but he showed he can run fast. Sure, it wasn't, you know, Ruggs or Judy fast. He wasn't, you know, a burner. But 4-4-3 is going to win you most routes, you know, most plays. And, you know, there was one expert that said, you know, the best – I think it was Daniel Jeremiah that said the best receivers in the NFL aren't always the fastest or the biggest. It's the ones who can run the best routes and get open.

And we see that with Adam Thielen all the time. He's not the fastest guy or the biggest guy. But, you know, Jefferson showed it too. He kind of has that sneaky, you know, game day speed that showed up a lot. And look how it turned out. Yeah, you know, another part of it too that was maybe overlooked that Mike Zimmer pointed out on numerous occasions was just having strong hands. You just catch every football that comes near you. It's like, again, this is not rocket science it's like i don't mean

to say any person could be an nfl scout but sometimes with some players and some decisions that get made in the draft you go lamar jackson was unbelievable in college why did you make so much else out of it right and the same thing i guess goes for justin jefferson here like why did you make so much else out of it the other part of it too and it's funny that he succeeded on a team that doesn't use three wide receivers but slot receivers moving guys around I mean this is going on all the time in the NFL even if a guy is a slot only wide receiver which by the way was on a Stefan Diggs original draft profile too on nfl.com that they projected him as a slot receiver but slot receivers are killing it in the nfl michael thomas lines up in the slot adam thielen lines up in the slot

it's just sort of a like you know there's draft luck and there's well you know you thought it was going to work out and it didn't because of x y and z and then there's okay you really had a bad process all the teams and the Vikings are the beneficiaries for it. One thing that you asked me about my big takeaway, one thing that really stood out was that Dane Brugler, I talked to Dane of the Athletic, and he's really, really well respected. He's really good. He said that when he first got into scouting, one of his mentors said, don't overthink it if the guy produces then more often than not he's going to produce at the next level and that's not always the case there's always

players who kill it in college and then for some reason just don't translate to the nfl but in this case you know what dame said really resonated he's like look at the numbers look at what he did at lsu how could you not think he was gonna be a star and he was and i think you're right some teams you know there's a lot of pressure in the draft and you know teams have so long to evaluate guys i just wonder i just wonder if you know i'm sure we all do it you you focus on something for so long and then you're like well how about this how about that right yeah and then by the end you're overthinking it and you know there's like i said there's just so much pressure and you only have a certain you know finite finite amount of picks to to get it

right and and help your roster so yeah i'm sure every team in the nfl has a pick you know or multiple picks every year where they're like wow that that's just kind of how it has to go yep and uh everybody sees something different too i I mean, Chris Trapasso, like you said, he didn't see it and other people did. And it's kind of a big guessing game. And that's why I enjoy draft season so much is sort of the debates over which players are going to turn out. And then we all just kind of wait and see, and you never really know. And you know, this too,

once you get into training camp then you've got a sense for it but it's not until then and you there's no way to simulate of like putting justin jefferson into a training camp situation so if it's you know laquan treadwell and you put him into a training camp situation versus college well maybe you would have known that it was going to go differently, but you couldn't do that. And so it's sort of funny for us, even reporting on the team, when we go to camp and you see Jefferson run and you go, wonder why that guy wasn't drafted at the top. My gosh, he's faster than everybody else.

But you can't do that. So it's always an interesting dance that these teams have to do. And I think about the Vikings' previous couple of wide receivers that they picked in the early rounds didn't work out, and then all of a sudden this one does. And so we hear that all the time. Well, this team can't draft this position or that position. It's like you take your shots and you see what happens, and this one was a home run.

Definitely a home run, right? And that was kind of my final question to each of these draft experts was what does the future hold for him? We know, we, we talked about, you know, his 2020 season and pre-draft reports and what they hit on, what they missed on, but I really wanted to find out, well, now that he's done it, what do you expect of him going forward? And Daniel Jeremiah called him a top five, top 10 receiver already, you know, and this is just a guy who's played one year, Chris, even though he was wrong. He's like, he's like, now's my chance to get it right. He's like, he's going to be a superstar. You know, he's, you know, and this is just a guy who's played one year. Chris, even though he was wrong, he's like,

he's like now's my chance to get it right. He's like, he's going to be a superstar. You know, he's, he's ushering in the, the modern wave of a modern era wide receiver. So yeah, the future is very bright for Justin Jefferson. I'm happy with how this piece turned out. And it's just, he's just going to be a lot of fun to watch. Yeah.

It was a great idea and great stuff. People should go check it out at Vikings.com, The Rise of Justin Jefferson, Eric Smith. Thanks for coming on the show, man. We will do it again soon. Love your work. Thanks, Matt. Thanks for having me.

Appreciate it.