Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - POSTGAME REACTION: Disaster for JJ McCarthy vs. Packers

Episode Date: November 23, 2025

Matthew Coller talks with Dane Mizutani of the Pioneer Press about JJ McCarthy's rough, rough outing in a terrible loss to the Green Bay Packers. The Purple Insider podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. Also, check out our sponsor HIMS at https://hims.com/purpleinsider Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, everybody, welcome into the Purple Insider Postgame show for the Minnesota Vikings. The show, as always presented by Fandual, Matthew Collar here, along with Dane Mizatani, at Lambeau Field, where we just witnessed the Vikings lose 23 to 6. And, you know, coming down here, Dane, as I was driving down, I thought, well, you know what? Maybe we'll see is a grinded out. gritty type of game that comes down to Will Reichard's foot. That was my prediction heading into this game that the Vikings would run the ball like crazy, get three or four plays from J.J. McCarthy, and then kick their way to victory because they had an edge in kicking.

And you know what? I'm taking a W for that. They had a very clear edge in kicking and actually in punting today. But I never expected J.J. McCarthy to play a game in which he nearly lost as many yards to sacks as he did throw for that many yards. And what the Vikings have been looking for from McCarthy is progress, learning experiences. And I think the hard part coming out of this game is what exactly are you supposed to learn from that? And we can talk about the mistakes that were made. We can talk about having your tight end run to quarterback sneak instead of just handing the ball to Jordan Mason. We can talk about Miles Price, another catastrophic. mistake from the special teams.

And yeah, at some point, we do need to have that discussion about the special teams coach if they're going to every single week make hugely costly mistakes. But all of that feels like deck chairs on the Titanic in comparison to the way that McCarthy played. And after the game, a lot of the players tried to say, we all need to be better, we all need to band together, we all need to lock in a lot of platitudes that players say when the quarterback is nowhere close to. being good enough to help his team win.

And this was the first time, though, I think that I saw McCarthy, to me, look like unplayable. There were certainly times where he was airmailing passes against the Chicago Bears, where it got to close to that line. But then he was able to find a drive at the end and put his team ahead. And it would have felt much, much better at that point, if not for the whole kick return thing. So at least there was something to grip onto.

But from this game, from the very very. outset. Even when it was close, Kevin O'Connell was showing zero belief or trust in J.J. McCarthy's ability to move the offense. He was just handing off every single play. And then the occasional bootleg that he thought he could actually execute. And then as the game went on when they got down and Micah Parsons was able to do whatever he wanted, McCarthy just simply could not get rid of the football and at one point was being lifted up and tossed into the end zone. There's been comparisons to previous quarterbacks that have not worked out for the Minnesota Vikings. I'm not sure any of their games approach as bad as this one was today, Dane.

So what is too much of a reaction? I don't feel like every single game we can come to the post game and just say, well, this is more proof that they need another quarterback next year because there is a long way to go. But now we are six games in, and this is as bad as we have ever seen for a drafted quarterback through his first six games. Not to mention they had their full offensive lineback. They ran the ball well. They played defense.

I mean, as much as you can when the offense is doing absolutely nothing. The receivers caught the ball today for the most part, so we couldn't even lean on that one. This is a, sorry, it was number nine, and they had no chance to win with this level of quarterback play. Totally. Completely agree. Let's get it out of the way. First, the game's way different if Miles Price doesn't muff the punt.

We know that. obviously. If he doesn't muff the punt, it's 10-6 there. You came out of the half, probably feeling pretty good. You're back in the game because Will Riker hit a 52 and a 59-yard field goal. We'll talk about him more later. You're probably feeling pretty good about yourself. You get the stop on defense that you need. Miles Price muffs the punt. Inexplicably, has it bounce off his leg. Packers score two, three plays later. It's 17-6 game, and that's pretty much the ball game, though, not because Miles Price muffed the punt. That is a disastrous mistake that cannot happen in that situation.

We both know that. But the fact that it's 176 at that point, and you feel like the game is over, that falls squarely on the shoulders of the quarterback. If you feel like you can't come back in a game at 176 because the offense can't move the ball, that falls squarely on the quarterback. People are going to make excuses for J. Jim Carthy. They always do. Four yards of offense after halftime, I don't.

know what excuse you could possibly make the game just looks too big for him right now maybe in three or four years with three or four years of development with three or four years to sit behind a veteran he could look like a guy who is capable of running an NFL offense but right now he does it and I think you you hit the nail on the head from the beginning of the game Kevin O'Connell basically said I don't think he can run an offense right now because this offense that's been predicated on deep crossers over the middle with Kirk Cousins and Sam Darnold and even Josh Dobbs and Nick Mullins was reduced to let's hand the ball to Aaron Jones, let's hand the ball to Jordan Mason, let's hand the ball to T.J. Hawkinson, I guess, sometimes. Let's run the ball as much

as we can so not to put too much pressure on J.J. McCarthy. Let's run the ball as much as we can so not to put any pressure on McCarthy. And as soon as the Vikings were in a position where it became a two-score football game, there was some pressure that was put on McCarthy. He was asked to drop back more than he was asked to drop back in the first half. He was asked to do more for his football team than he was asked to do in the first half. And it looked like a pretty inept product for the remainder in 30 minutes of gameplay. It's getting ragdolled by Deontay Wyatt. It's getting tossed around by Micah Parsons. I get it. The offensive line, it's had better days. But when you're holding on to the football as long as

JJ McCarthy's holding on the football, that's going to result in sacks. There are some plays when you play Michael Parsons that you just say bravo like tip your cap that was great jaj mccarthy made it easy on him today by the way he played quarterback i don't know how it's going to get any better i know he has however many games what are we at now 14 4 plus 7 11 so he has six more games to figure this out he has six more games though to figure this out and people would say well you got to have patience with the young quarterback i've heard that over and over and over again You do. I agree. But if it looks this bad through six games and it looks this bad over the next six games,

how much patience can you have? You can't just sit there and tank Justin Jefferson's prime in the name of patience. You have a bunch of guys in the peak of their prime, and you can't just let that go in the name of patience because you want this guy to be the guy you hoped he would be when you drafted him number 10 overall. Again, I'll sit here and I'll say I'm not calling him a bust, not yet. But he has six games now to prove he should be the quarterback next season, as harsh as that may sound. So this is the hard part for me because there was one point today where I felt like, and look, Max Brousmer, you know, we haven't seen him play at all.

He is quite a bit older and more experienced playing quarterback than J.J. McCarthy. And his kind of calling card is the ability to get rid of the football, identify things. But going up against Micah Parsons, I don't know that it was going to look any better. There was a part of me today. It got to the point where I thought they better have John Wolford elevated. And I'm not joking next week because you are reaching a point. You are teetering on a point. They're playing Seattle next week, by the way, who has one of the best defenses in the NFL.

You are teetering on a point of just destroying J.J. McCarthy. And after the game, a lot of the questions for McCarthy were about his confidence and how you build off of this and improve. But there was a time where I was actually pretty concerned about that, where he got hit. and he stayed down and I thought, oh, it looks like he's hurt. And Brian O'Neill dragged him back up and then he trotted off the field. Like, I mean, clearly he had taken a hit, but it was more of a, I can't believe how bad this is going type of moment. And O'Neill being the great captain that he is, sort of identifying that and his quarterback, grabbing him up. Come on, let's keep going.

And O'Neill was great after the game, talking about, you know, just everybody needing to have a sense of urgency to help improve. and, you know, around J.J. McCarthy and all those things that captains are going to say. But as everyone is leaving here going, what else are we supposed to do around this quarterback? And at some point, you're putting his health at risk and you're putting the idea that he can even, you know, get back on track at risk when you have games that are of this level of bad. And the problem with trying to use the last six games now to evaluate McCarthy is that we can't avoid the first. six games and the realities of how far he would have to go in these next six games in order to prove that he can be the quarterback for next year. I think today was the day. I remember saying this on the show at different times through two games, three games, when people would ask,

hey, could they look at this quarterback for next year? That quarterback is like, okay, hang on. Now, let's just all take a deep breath and see how this plays out. But today I thought this is the day where we start talking about what they're going to do in the future. We can mock draft now. We can talk about who's going to play quarterback because even a good bunch of games by the end would still result in me thinking, I just don't think you can go far enough after this to get to the point where we're saying that he is the franchise quarterback.

Yeah, I mean, I don't think right now you can look at what he's doing and feel very confident about that. Like, it feels like we've risen to that level, probably quicker than, than we thought we would. I think right now, though, like the fact that we're bringing that up, the fact that we're talking about that, the fact that that even becomes something that we've mentioned, I'm like, I don't think we would overreact in a way

that we're talking about the future at the quarterback position if it didn't look as bad as it does right now. This isn't just some inflammatory hot take so we can get clicks and views on YouTube. Like, this is just the reality of the situation that we're watching play out week after week after week. And I commend the leaders on the team. Brian O'Neill talked after the game.

Josh Mattelis talked after the game. Justin Jefferson talked after the game. Aaron Jones talked after the game. They're all saying the right things. They're all put in a position as captains on this team to speak after tough games like this, to speak after losses like this. And they're saying the right things. They're not throwing J.J. McCart the end of the bus.

The culture that they talk about, like in some ways, is sustaining because you've seen teams throughout the league. When it gets bad, it gets way worse, very fast because the team just unravels. I don't think the Vikings will ever get to that point. I do think that there is enough of a foundation with this team, with the leaders, with just how good people there are in this locker room that it will never rise to the level of rolling the kid under the bus. But to put them in a position where they have to keep talking about it week after week after week Alec Lewis was just walking up

he was standing in for Justin Jefferson while we were talking to JJ McCarthy he said Justin Jefferson did feel at a certain point like at a loss what am I supposed to do what are we supposed to do like can we keep we keep talking about this after losses week after week after week it does put your your leadership

in a tough position well I don't look are they going to play John Walford probably not are they going to play Max Rosemur I know we like him he's a UDFA go for his Minnesota connection, probably not. They're going to ride this out with J.J. McCarthy the rest of the way for better or for worse, because that's what you do when you draft a guy number 10 overall and hand them the keys to what you thought was a Ferrari.

Not a Ferrari. Maybe not even a Camry right now. If they don't get the offensive level of play that we're used to, the team starts to look lost. We saw that today. And it's left us with some hard conversations. I remember sitting there after, I forget which loss it was now, now, but saying if it doesn't continue, or if it doesn't improve, if this continues down

the course that it has, it will lead to some difficult conversations this off season. Those difficult conversations could pop up sooner than then if it continues to look like it does. And, you know, the bar for today just wasn't particularly high for us to be saying, hey, you know what, JJ fought in that game and I would have had a bunch of notes. I did. I write notes throughout the game of things that I want to bring up on the postgame podcast. And having T.J. Hawkinson do a QB sneakism. The notes of do not ever try that again, what the heck? And I know that's a thing that happens in the league where they have the tight end. You see it all over the NFL come in. Travis Kelsey's done it before. But I think in this situation with T.J. Hawkinson, he hasn't really shown a whole lot of burst.

The couple of times they've tried to do something like this, it has never really worked. the Josh Dobbs pitch comes to mind once upon a time from Hawkinson, I probably would have said, I don't know, man, Jordan Mason was running pretty well, but it just feels like that's all deck chairs on the Titanic that we're talking about, that it's just not relevant enough to have this discussion when everything comes back to the most important thing for the franchise. And there's a part of me that does want to ask, but unfortunately I know the answer that does want to ask, like, what exactly did you see there that made you think this was going to be someone who could acceptably run your offense? But the thing is that we saw during training

camp. And I remember saying to you after the joint practices when he had performed really well that, like, I think I'm pretty confident they're not going to be horrible. Well, I was wrong about that because they are a horrible football team right now at the bottom of the division at four and seven. But I never envisioned it going this way of being inept, being not able to even just run the most simple offense that's been laid out in front of him because it was clear that Kevin O'Connell came out of last week thinking we could block up the bears, but this team's going to be a lot harder. So let's just lean on the run, lean on the run, take the keys away from J.J. McCarthy. I felt like they did that early in the game last week. But then, you know, they were still trying

downfield stuff, downfield typical KOC concepts, and he was overthrowing them. And then this week, they just said, you know what, no more of that. Now we're going to just have you run the simplest stuff that is known to man, a Tim Tebow Broncos type of offense and try to win in that caliber of fashion, which is impossible against the team like this. And they were actually kind of doing it. I even was ready to say to KOC, hey, if you're going to go fully that way, full. You've got to kick that field goal there on fourth down to make it 10-9 or whatever at

halftime instead of going for it with T.J. Hawkinson. But if you can't make it work at even this level, how are you going to tell me that by six games from now, he will be running this offense against this Packers team? Hey, and by the way, week 18, they might have something to play for. So you think they were tuned up today? They're going to be really tuned up then. they weren't even fully healthy on that side of the football, the Packers. Those last two weeks could be nightmarish.

So there is six games to go. And I have been very slow to want to be the person that calls it. And I still think that that's unfair after six games. But the history is what it is when it comes to early quarterback performance that you're getting to rare air of not being able to even complete basic passes or even when you do it's checkdowns that are late to t j hawkinson that gets him destroyed early in the game i mean that was similar to the one that dobs through that put justin jefferson in the hospital because it's just not coming out on time and that's where i think it would be better for him to not play

is when the ball is coming out so late that nobody can get it and even when they do they're risking injury a lot of times and there were i mean gosh at least the last games had flashes that's what makes this one so tough. But then you look back and you go, yeah, actually the bears are terrible on defense and the Ravens have no quarterback pressure at all. So even a team that is capable of pressuring the quarterback just a little, and you get, how many yards did you end up with, 80? He finished today, 12 of 19 for 87 yards. If you take into account the 35 yards of sack that he took, was a net passer yards, net passing of 52 yards. Okay. We were talking last week about how I had asked one of our colleagues, John Krasinski, because

I wasn't here for it, hey, how did it look in comparison to Ponder? And the big thing he said was, hey, we've seen more flashes than we ever saw from Ponder. I don't know how many games Christian Ponder ever played that reached this level of 52 yards passing and two interceptions, which made it all the worse because even though Justin's school is the one who gets beat on that Rishon Gary play, you know, who your left tackle is and you're allowed to step up in the pocket away from his rush, at least, and I'm not giving school credit here, but like at least he had sort of tried to push him past the quarterback. But if you don't have any pocket presence at all, I mean, the list of

things that we have gotten to now that are a five alarm fire is 10 to 12 things long. It's the pocket presence. It's the footwork. It's now I think it's even the confidence of running the offense where they're saying, well, I mean, he mostly ran things okay. as far as the operation. I guess they only jumped offside once in the game. But even then, stuff like that, like not being able to take the snap, getting your foot stepped on.

I know is it all his fault? It never is. But these things have added up to where there's so many issues that correcting every single one of them by the next time they see the Packers feels almost impossible. So I think this was a corner turning day for me. And I would also like to keep this day in mind. because Washington is on the way and Dallas is on the way and the Giants, although they played, you know, Detroit hard, they still don't have a very good defense.

They got destroyed by Jemir Gibbs. There will probably be some moments against those terrible defenses. But if you can't even put up two yards per dropback, three yards per drop back against the team like this, it's really hard to see you fixing all of those things to the point where you're giving the organization any chance at all. going forward of having their franchise quarterback. Yeah, I think the hardest part for me is that we are now six games in. And I get that growth is not linear in the NFL, but I would like to see, like, you stacking games on top of each other, maybe learning from the week before and applying it to the week after.

This game felt like the first game of his career. It felt like this was the first time he was playing in the NFL. And that's an issue. And I get it. The defense is good. They have arguably the best defensive player in the league. But when you're trailing as much as they were, they were trailing by two scores for the entire second half

because of, again, the Miles Price muffed punt, which if we're walking away from this game, blaming Matt Daniels, we're doing it wrong, but I also understand that back to back to back weeks now of special teams blunders, sometimes, you know, heads have to roll. Do I expect him to still be the special teams coordinator next week? yes, but you're fair in your criticism of Matt Daniels, if that's where you want to go.

Back to the second half. You were trailing by two scores the entire second half, and you only managed four yards of offense. That would mean, like, we've seen this with Kirk, Kirk Cousins. He would just be terrible for an entire three quarters. But then because they were losing by two scores, at least he would throw a couple garbage time completions. He put together a garbage time drive. And wow, like the stats didn't look as bad as they were. that game, Jay-C McCarthy didn't even do that because they couldn't run the offense.

Like, every time they would go on the field, they would punt. Every time he would drop back to pass, I started to fear for his safety. Like, it got to that level. So I think that's what's hard for me is that I think we were talking about, well, it's only his third start. It's only his fourth start. It's only his fifth start. Well, this is his sixth start.

And I get against a good defense. But there wasn't growth shown in any phase, if anything. it was regression and I'm beginning to wonder if like this kid who has never really experienced adversity on the football field losing games and has never really I think been in a situation where he has to question his ability to play football he's always excelled at Nazareth Academy in Illinois University of Michigan he's always excelled and I wonder like is there like a paralysis of thought at certain point is there is there too much going through his head because he's thinking about his footwork he's thinking about his posture

He's thinking about his feet and eyes. He's never had to learn how to play quarterback like this. And I'm just curious if he can learn to play quarterback like this. It's a lot to put on him right now. But it's not looking better. Like you go back to what John Krasinski said about Christian Ponder, never showed you the flashes. We could point to flashes in each of J.J. McCartney's losses.

Until today, I guess the best throw he made was to Justin Jefferson. It was a 19-yard, pretty good layered ball. But we're reaching the level where it just feels like luck sometimes when these things happen because they're not happening with nearly the consistency that they should be now, albeit six games into his career, six games into his career. But you're touching on something that is why I would start to consider a benching is because I look at what happened with Bryce Young and Carolina last year. and Bryce, go back and look at the game he had before he got benched for Andy Dalton.

Now, I know they don't have Andy Dalton, but John Wolford has played games in the NFL before. Has he played well? Absolutely not. And I wouldn't expect that. But you need someone to go out there and at least give Justin Jefferson a chance to catch seven balls for 85 yards. I mean, this is nowhere even close to that. Did Jordan Addison have to suit up today? I mean, the play that he checked down to T.J. Hawkinson and got him destroyed.

Jordan Addison runs right behind him. It's a route concept that they use all the time. I mean, the thing is that a lot of the stuff that he's failing at is elementary stuff that does not take a great quarterback like Sam Darnold to operate. It just takes any quarterback who plays in the NFL. And it may be, today I did think, it may be if next week it looks like this and his confidence out there, not what he says in a post-game press conference or in a Wednesday press conference about his confidence and the process and all that stuff.

those are things that he's been trained to say forever. Body language tells the story much more than what you're going to say in the press conference. The confidence looked completely shot and he looked in sheer terror like in the second half when he actually had to drop back and throw. And when he got picked up and tossed, that's where I thought this might be dangerous for him. And he is so young and he has a lot of talent. And I think that he has the right work ethic. He wants to be coachable. He has a really good attitude he's a very likable person to the players in the locker room because trust me if he wasn't they would layer into their comment stuff to let us know because i have seen that before in the past and they're not doing that they are protecting him you know their their leadership is

protecting him and everybody who talks and jefferson has shown i mean incredible patience of a saint truly uh to not be throwing a chair in that locker room uh in the post game conversation with the media So, you know, I think that it shows how much everybody wants him to succeed. But at some point, you risk crossing a line where he's getting beat up so much that he's either physically or mentally in danger of kind of setting himself back much farther because he is in year two of the rookie quarterback contract. It's not year five for him. And there could still be options and development here.

And we'll see where the other games go. but after today, it feels like we are teetering on that point where he is getting more harmed than helped by playing like this. And I even thought that a little bit from just the fact that KOC felt the need to go into an offense that looked like the Pittsburgh Steelers with Neil O'Donnell or something in 1994. I mean, just handing off over and over again and saying basically just don't, just don't. And that was justified because he was trying to win the game. And KOC put together a game plan with their staff that was worthy of hanging with this Green Bay Packers team. But the performance was so low, so poor that it just

was not really possible. And if they had half an offensive line for the entire game, I would sort of buy, hey, it was Atlanta all over again. He just couldn't do anything. But he had time to throw early in the game. And then the minute that he didn't, it went to pure, sheer, complete master mode. So I think that they have to be at a point where I would actually next week elevate Wolford and have him ready if McCarthy looked like that through a half again because Seattle could do that to you and just be ready to give him a mental break because this has to have been from the ankle injury where everybody said he was fake benched and you know, the pressure of having Darnold leave and play so well with the Seattle Seahawks.

They won again. He put up big stats again. You know, they're going to continue to do that. probably against the I mean we'll see what happens next week he could throw four picks against this team but you understand like that's part of it and then the internet crushing him people like us having to say the fact of the matter all the statistics coming out all the memes coming out all the pressure from everybody his stinking quarterback coach running his mouth on the internet I mean all this things that he's gone through emotionally mentally all he he may need a break and I think we're going to see that for next week. So here's what I'd like to do. I was trying to think of like some way to talk about anything else because I feel like we've thoroughly broken down.

I wish, here's the other problem too with this. The other problem with the McCarthy discussion is we've tried everything. Like people have talked about friends of ours have talked about maybe they should change the play caller. Maybe they should, that wasn't a me thing. But it's been said. like and i mean yes i mean you judd jud's the best but you know that was kind of a no for me uh the run they need to just give it to mason and well they tried giving it to mason they need them to just check down more kOC was going with that for a couple of weeks so that didn't work either i like to be solutions oriented on the show so i like to try to look for what the right answers are like oh what will they do schematically we look at the numbers we look at the

x's and o's i call my friends who are former coaches or current coaches and say hey, what's this scheme? What could they do there? There was nothing today. And that I think is the hardest part for me because I got nothing after this today. So here's what I want to do. I want to shift gears and I want to do something of like, should we criticize this or not? And don't say no to everything because it's just not as big of a deal as the quarterback

position. But we've sort of like bumped on the special teams thing a couple times. But why don't we just like go fully into that discussion? because why shouldn't we? The mistakes that have been made have been hysterically bad. I mean, last week, just Ivan Pace running to nothing and giving up that kick return. You have today Miles Price, I don't know exactly. I mean, KOC said he knew what he was trying to do there.

I get it, I guess. Keep the guy away from the ball. But it's like 101 that that guy's supposed to push you into the ball, which is exactly what happened. is it a matter of they need someone else coaching these guys or is it a matter of when you build a roster this way with so many veterans what ends up happening is you have seven or eight UDFAs out there and they're going to hold sometimes and you have a kid kick returning remember West Phillips saying like is this we really doing this and the kid kick and punt

returning is going to have some miscues at times and that's just life with the way their roster is right now. I don't, I'm not going to ever stand up here and say Matt Daniels deserves to be out of a job because I think he's done a good job fostering like a competitive side of that side of the ball. That's the side of the ball that people hate. Like if you're on that unit, if you're on a kick coverage team or a punt coverage team or kickoff team or a punt team, like that is generally viewed as like, I'm not good enough to really play. He has fostered something where like Dallas Turner is walking off the field after field goal blocks saying like I think we can do this I like I remember the field goal block against who they blocked the field goal against the lions I think it was yes yes Isaiah Rogers got caught by the holder yes and then low kick by Jake Bates but after that game I remember Matt Daniels saying like Dallas Turner came off the field and said like it's coming in law we're going to have a chance like the fact that Dallas Turner was a first round pick has like the wherewithal to feel like on that kickoff or that field goal block that we're going to have a chance because I'm going to

be back out here for field goal block to think that and to have like an actual passion for that side of the ball I think he's done as much as he can is what I'm saying and I get it like if he were to lose his job it would be hard for me to I guess stand on the table and say like this is BS because at a certain point like errors add up but I think Matt Daniels is doing as much as he can with like you said, like you hinted at. The chips he's been given. It's a veteran-laden team. And they're just like, hey, Matt, here's eight UDFAs, get them to all play together.

And he's like, all right, let me go. So I get it. It's easy. It's low-hanging fruit. And the criticism is deserved when it's happening back-to-back-to-back weeks. It was kickoff fumbles by Miles Price twice. One of them, he recovered, one of them, the other. team recovered. Everyone remembers the kick return last week that lost in the game. You could

argue, you would be wrong, but the punt return or the muffed punt by Miles Price lost them the game today. But these errors are adding up and it does become an issue and it does become something that like Matt Daniels might have to answer for whether that's fair or unfair. This is a results-based business. So while I think Matt Daniels is doing as much as he can with what he's given and you can coach up the guys until you're blue in the face on what to do, and it's on these guys at the end of the day to do what you're telling them. Like, I think being a special team's coordinator would drive me absolutely insane because you could probably tell these guys, don't hold.

If you're straining too hard, let go. And then in the heat of battle, if they're straining too hard, they're going to hold on. Or you could tell Miles Price to your blue in the face, hey, if you're not going to, if you're going to abandon the fair catch, I would like you to just run away from the ball. I understand what you're doing, but just first and foremost, away from the ball. You can coach guys to do all of this and then they can do the opposite on Sundays. And the Venn diagram with the people who make mistakes and the UDFAs or young players

in the league are basically two circles on top of each other. And those are the guys that Matt Daniels is generally having to work with. My last point on this rant for Matt Daniels is he found you a kicker, maybe the best kicker in the league. The real Reichert is incredible. 52-yarder, 59-yarder in the elements at Lambeau Field like they were chip shots and Ryan Wright had a great day too. So I rest my case.

Matt Daniels, I think he's doing as good as he can with what he has. The energy you had for that right now is... I'm trying to bring in. Wow, that was astonishing. This is what happens when the game only lasts like an hour and a half because we're like, oh, we got all day for this.

Who wants to talk about every part return? A lot of the mistakes have been by Miles Price. And he is a rookie with a ton of talent that they need to keep developing. So I don't think that when it comes to the coaching point, like what would be, you know, wrong with the way that you're coaching. I mean, Price is, he's been a punt return. That's like part returner 101 is to not back up into the football. So, I mean, that's not really a coachable point there. I don't think. I mean, I guess, you know, you got to be aware of that, where the football is and tell everybody to get away from it. I mean, that's, I don't mind if Miles Price, just considering,

I think he's going to be here a long time as a returner. If he makes mistakes this year in a year that they are four and seven, if this really mattered, I think I would get much more worked up about it. Matt Daniels' belief in Ryan Wright has paid off incredibly well, but that unit is also good. He had to punt from inside of his own end zone, and he killed the ball, and they had to go down and make a tackle, and they did a good job of that. Their overall net punting is terrific. As you mentioned Will Reichard has been incredible. He had to reshape Will Riker's kicking this year for his scheduling, which I know doesn't sound like a great defense of a special teams coach, but they reworked it to get him healthier and he's kicked better this year, a 59-yard chip shot

right through the middle. I mean, unbelievable, he is the best kicker I've ever seen in my entire life. That does have to matter at some point. And it feels like on a kick-off to kick-off basis, on a punt-to-punt basis, on a field goal, field goal block, they do a pretty good job. And then it's just, oh my gosh, why did you do that stupid thing? And then that, to me, is a lot more of a young players. And his job is to mostly develop those guys for the future. But I will say that this is something that should be looked at very, very closely because special teams in the NFL are now causing a lot more wins and losses than they ever have in

the past. And yes, you can point to that play and say, the game, singularly turned there because if they get the ball back and they continue to grind it out, they had been running fairly successfully against the Packers, and maybe you continue to put J.J. McCarthy in positions where he could just, I mean, game manages like carrying a lot of weight, but like he can just do almost nothing and then hit a pass or two down the field and stay in the game and make this thing interesting. But once you give Parsons and Gary and Jeff Halfley their chance to mess with a young quarterback, like they were going to do it. To me, that's not an

excuse for the way McCarthy play, but it's pretty clear that a lot of these games might be different, if not for those enormous mistakes. Now, let's talk about the defensive side. So things that feel like they happened seven years ago, Dallas Turner picks up a sack early in the game. Let's not pretend that doesn't matter. That him at that side of the field looks like he's just a lot more comfortable. And I know that we've talked a lot about the role. I don't think Anyone can be Andrew Van Ginkle. He's an all pro for a reason because he's really unique and he's really good. I think it's also about not just the side, the role, but the side of the field, I think has to, he played over there at Alabama for his entire life.

He just looks more comfortable to me rushing the passer from that side. And I would go as far to say, and I don't have the PFF grade yet. I'm sure they'll all look bad because just, you know, the Packers were running the entire second half. but I might want to say Dallas Turner's looked like pretty darn good over these last couple weeks. He's actually given something for them to build upon with him. And I think what they should know coming out of this season is he probably has to rush from that side, which means a little more probably give and take with Jonathan Grenard. And he or he has to put some more effort into the other side, I guess. But I think it's pretty clear. He's a rusher. Like that's what he is going

to do. And he's going to have a lot of rushes. because he's not the biggest guy where he just gets taken out and he's not going to get there. But he's got some that are pretty darn spectacular. And he's shown a lot more capability, I think, overall this year, especially these last two games. So I want to say, I forget what the game was. Like, should we criticize that? I just want to put that out there because that's a thing that happened. But how about the defense overall to you, Dane?

I mean, they did get run over quite a bit. Jordan Love did get a handful of third down completions where he's fading away and he finds a guy open on the sidelines like put aside that we know why that was but like what do you want to say about the defense i do i think they deserve some criticism like there are if we want to talk it about inflection points in the game and miles price's muffed punt was one of the biggest it was the biggest inflection point in the game there was another like minorly like in hindsight now because of what we know and how the thing unraveled but at the moment when Jordan Love is fading away, and Eric Wilson has a great blitz, and it's third and long, and it's like a fadeaway jumper that he completes down the field.

That's on third down. That's on third and I would consider long. Last week against Caleb Williams on third and long, like they were able to pick up some first downs. The Bears were, the Packers were on third and long a couple of times. So I think the defense, like, it's not totally, like, in a way that they've performed where you can't criticize them. And there are things that they have done or failed to do over the course of these last two or three games because they even played well against Lamar Jackson, I would say, where it's like, okay, there are moments. You're working so hard to get these guys in third and long, and then you're giving up first downs on third and long. Like, that deserves criticism.

I think their run game, like allowing Manuel Wilson to rush for 170 yards on you, first time Green Bay's had a hundred-yard rusher all year. He scored two touchdowns. like that deserves some criticism but I'm not going to like turn the dial up to 11 because like you said I know we're supposed to neglect in this game that we've created everything else but it's hard for me to sit here and say like the defense played bad today because like I think they followed the script that you had kind of implanted and part of that script was the quarterback had to look competent and he didn't but yeah I mean if you want to throw some blame on the defense do it. I think the defensive players would also welcome that. Like very rarely have we gone into a game after, you know, a loss in the defensive's pounded their chest and say, we did our job. Like, because like, it hasn't looked that good at times. Like, it hasn't looked as bad as it looked in Los Angeles when we were sounding the alarms. But they force a turnover. Like, they still aren't forcing turnovers. They're not making impact plays. They're allowing first

down's on third down third and long so yeah they're not they're not bulletproof in all this here would be my thing and this is a little bit of a it's not fair but today's not a day to be super fair to the minnesota vikings jvonne hardgrave and jonathan allen add up to what on the salary cap can't do the math all right it doesn't matter if you could do the math a lot sam darnold on a franchise tag would have added up to what on the salary cap that's the salary cap that's that's what I was thinking about today. I was thinking about if you are going to spend that much money and you are going to justify going to a quarterback with no experience, barely any experience in college, one training camp, one preseason, and that is, and I believe they also had one OTA

practice as well, if that is what you are going to base your decision on to move on from a 14-win, 35 touchdown, 4,000-yard quarterback, if that's what you're basing your decision on, those guys better not get run over by Emmanuel Wilson and a bunch of freaking backup offensive linemen for the Packers. This was not Brian Bulaga in the house today. It looked great. Looks like he lost like 80 pounds. And Corey Lindsley was pretty darn good in his day as well.

This was not David Bacchieri, my friends. Their best offensive lineman wasn't even playing. And you would have thought that they had the offensive line that used to block and hold. For Aaron Rogers, they didn't. And yet it's just been. the impact overall pretty average and very expensive. So your justification was you built a behemoth roster, but those moves and those risks, not many of them have paid off. I think Willfries has been good, probably had a rough day today like everybody else. Eric Wilson is your

best free agent signing, probably, and he costs like $2 million, which I think if you praise the Eric Wilson signing, then you might have to go another step down the road and go, if you can find a good player at expense, then maybe you should have, if you have the best evaluator for defensive coordinator, again, does it have to be fair? Not today, really. If you have such a genius at evaluation, then do you have to spend that much money on that side? Maybe that's too hindsighty. I don't know. Probably not, though, because some people did bring it up at the time. Anyhow, so the Vikings end up losing this game. I don't know what else there is to talk about. for pray for all of us, not like me. I'm going to be fine. I think I'm changing my travel

plans to not go to Seattle next week because that costs a lot of money and this team is not worth spending it on to go see it. But I mean like them, like all the all the players, J.J. McCarthy because they're playing a great team next week in one of the hardest environments. And the only thing that you can grip onto from here on is maybe it will start to turn around and maybe this is the lowest point. But we also thought that maybe Baltimore would be the lowest point and that Chicago would maybe be the lowest point. This is as low as it gets. And this organization, like we're not there to the end of the season yet. But I mean, when we get to the end of this thing and it looks like this, you got to look around and go, well, who do you believe in now? I mean,

in terms of the evaluating their quarterback position, the decision making, having Sam Howell be the only competition. I mean, that's the other thing that you could go back to is, all right, okay, maybe you really didn't want a franchise tag Sam Darnold, but the only competition was Sam Howell and then an old Carson Wentz. I mean, we're going to go back to that, that even if you wanted to bench him, would Carson Wentz look any better? Was he giving anybody else a better chance when he was under pressure? Of course not. That's why he had no team. So there's a, lot to look at from the bigger picture. This has to be the low moment, but it actually doesn't have to be because they've got a better team that they're going up against, which leads me to

this. Each week, Dane, I have asked you a question, usually from our friends at Fandul, of whether the Vikings can get to eight wins. Now, I am changing that. Their odds on Fandul to get to six wins is minus 430. So they are significantly favored to get to six wins. do they get six wins? They get quarterback play like they got today. No, they will not win another game. But yes, I think they get to six wins. I think I'm baking into the equation and like I'm not going out on a limb.

It's minus 400. You like don't make that bet or you got a problem. Minus 430 technically. Yeah, it's minus a lot. So they should win two more games on the schedule. But if it looks like this, they won't. I think I'm baking into the equation that, like, against a horrendous Dallas Cowboys defense, like, hopefully, like, you can complete a forward pass against a terrible New York Giants team.

Like, hopefully you can just put together a game plan and not, like, screw up something on, like, special teams or defense or, like, to at least string together wins against teams that you're supposedly better than. Because I still think each week moving forward, like, there are a couple of teams that I think the Vikings top to bottom, are better than. But then again, I look at this week, there was a moment I honestly felt in this game where I thought to myself, like, are they the worst team in the NFL? Like, I know they're not, but when it looks like they did today at times, like it's kind of hard to see how it gets better.

So I think they get to six wins. I think they win two more games. But like, again, like, what does that do? Like, we've been doing this. It's funny, we started the season doing this. They're like, will they get to 12 wins? Well, and they're like, okay, will they get to 10 wins? Like, okay, that's not, we've stopped saying, will they get to eight wins?

Because, I mean, that's probably, like, you could probably plus money that one. Like, that's, I don't even know what it is, but I'm, they're not going to get to eight wins. Like, I think finding four wins on the schedule is hard. Finding two wins on the schedule, I still think they can do it. But, man, I can't get out of my head what we just watched. It was as bad of a football game. as I've seen play, I guess the first half of whatever, like the second half was as bad of football as I've seen the Vikings play since I've covered the team.

They are plus 270 to get to eight wins, so not even close to favored to get to eight wins, nor should they be after this. I agree with that assessment that if you were going into this, this felt like the last frontier of, okay, he just needs to do this. We heard it all week, the mechanics, and he knows what he needs to do. and all that sort of stuff and the rewiring and so forth. And I didn't think at all. I'm just making this very, very clear.

I know I've said it. But I didn't think at all that there was an expectation of, man, you should just go out there and throw for $3.50 and light them up and win this game. I don't think any of us thought that. But even if he had just played within the basics of what KOC laid out for his game plan for today, then you probably end up with at least a competitive. competitive game, and they were unable to do that. And this is just where we're at right now.

When COC talks about like, man, you need to thread an eel, it's like giving up a special team's mistake and going down was at 11 points, should not feel like 11 points. But that's what it felt like to this team today. And we will go forward and we'll continue to cover this as we always do. But this is one, as you said, that's going to be hard to get out of anybody's heads, even if there are good games in the future. This was the game for me where I turned the corner to, let me look at free agent lists.

Let me look at who's available. Hey, you know what's coming up this week? Our first mock drafts. That's what they've earned is we will be doing on November, what is it going to be, 24th, the first time that I pull up the PFF mock draft simulator and we're going to start looking at it because it's just gotten to that point. I also want to pick up the camera here and show something. how cool is this how cool is this can we see it on the camera i hope we can this is our view right now

the sun's setting behind us the lambo field that's pretty awesome that was pretty great so i didn't want to say that always uh always an honor to be here and uh to i guess watch a team that knows how to find their quarterbacks uh the green bay packers certainly do so i've entirely messed up the camera but that's okay if you made it this far Wow. Thank you so much. Dane, thank you for your time. We never, here's one thing that I've learned, this solo cam on this. Here's one thing I've learned through the years. We never leave Lambo the same as when we got here, whether it was Kirk tearing his Achilles or whatever the heck that just was. We always go away from Lambo to changed reporters, but not hungry reporters because

man, was it delicious today. Thanks, everybody. for your time. I should do this more often in the postgame show. It's more cinematic. We might need to spruce it up and we go forward. Take care, everybody. Football. Football.