Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Postgame reaction: Vikings fall to 0-3 in crazy loss to Chargers

Episode Date: September 25, 2023

Matthew Coller and Dane Mizutani of the Pioneer Press break down a crazy loss by the Minnesota Vikings against the Los Angeles Chargers to drop to 0-3. How did they fall apart in the biggest moments? What happened to the defense against Justin Herbert? What happens now? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody, welcome to another postgame show where we talk about whose fault it is. Matthew Collar, Dane Mizutani of the Pioneer Press, the Minnesota Vikings fall 28-24 in a game that absolutely lived up to its billing as two franchises that only play bananas crazy out of this universe games. And guess what? It was an absolutely bananas game. They came down to the ball bouncing off of a Caleb Evans for a touchdown. The Vikings have two shots at potentially winning the game in the red zone and cannot score. There's an interception that takes a bounce off of two different players to lose the game

for the Vikings. And oh, by the way, both teams ended up with exactly 475 yards. How in the world that happens? Oh, I don't know. Only in the universe of Vikings and chargers. And I thought Dane that I was going to see what they call a charger Zing, I think is what they call it, right? You are chargers in, which means finding a way to give away the game the los angeles chargers absolutely tried with a whack-a-doodle call handing the ball off when they could have easily qb sneaked against a weak vikings defensive line but instead the vikings get a last chance they can't pull it off they're oh and three and wow do we have a lot to discuss so um thoughts thoughts well there was a big article about

charger zing maybe collectively me and you should do an article about viking zing because that was about as vikings way to lose a game as i've seen right i mean everything that led up to that final 30 seconds you shouldn't be in the game at all. But because you're Minnesota, because you're the Vikings, it doesn't really matter how the rest of the game goes. They just want to break the fans' hearts in the most creative way possible. So no matter what was happening leading up to that point, the Vikings still had a chance. It felt like at times they probably shouldn't, the way that they failed to execute in the red zone down near the end zone on that previous drive.

I think they turned the ball over on downs, the drive before the final one of the game chargers, get the ball back. I'm assuming the clock's just going to run out. They're going to get a couple of first downs. It's over. Like you said, Brandon Staley calls a play call that,

that nobody in the history that ever played Madden would call, but he calls it a fullback dive with his halfback who had gained six yards all day and the Vikings get the ball back when they shouldn't have gotten the ball back and then they pick up a fourth down when I didn't expect them to pick up this fourth down but of course they picked up this fourth down because they want to break the fans hearts in the most creative way possible. And man, they did because with 30 seconds left, I think they get the playoff. It's a fourth and five with about 41 seconds left. They complete a ball to TJ Hawkinson and probably should spike it right there. You have a first

down you're you're in, you know, at the charger six at that point, you can go up, clock the ball, have three shots at the end zone. If you get one of those three, you win the game. I get the idea of trying to steal a play like Kevin O'Connell said, but if you just go back and rewatch that last 30 seconds of the game, it was complete dysfunction. We'll talk more about it, but Kirk says he couldn't hear Kevin O'Connell in his headset because of the fans. So basically saying our crowd was too loud. And after that, rushes to play, get up to the line, tries to fit a ball into TJ Hawkinson in a tight window. And then, like you said, bounces two times and lands in the arms of the Chargers linebacker. And then that's how you lose.

So thoughts on this game is it's another creative way to lose a game. And the Vikings are 0-3. And I think only six teams, seven teams have started 0-3 and gone on to make the playoffs. This does not look like a team that is going to add themselves to that list. You know, the weird thing about sports and regression to the mean is it always seems to come for you. And I don't know why I got, you know, I don't know why that everything that went right in the first nine weeks of last season, they got the Vikings to an eight and one record. And then since then they have won five out of 12 games and, but

everything went so right for them. This game was kind of like the Buffalo game in a lot of ways, except for instead of the ball bouncing off a couple of people. I mean, literally when they say the bounces, this was the bounces. They went against the Vikings, although they did recover a fumble. So the miracles can happen that the Vikings can be on the right side of a fumble. But last year they just had everything go right. You know, they're losing to Washington. And all of a sudden, Taylor Heineke throws an interception out of nowhere for no reason whatsoever. And against Miami, Miami's coming back.

And Jalen Waddell and the ball pops out and the Vikings get it. And they win the game because of it. And it just seemed a double doink in New Orleans. It just seemed to happen over and over again. And in these first three games, they should have two wins. You can't convince me that they were beating Philadelphia, but at least two wins where they outplayed Tampa Bay. They were right here with the Chargers.

And yet the one score game luck came for them at the beginning of this season. And we are going to get into all the problems and all the reasons they are where they are and all the reasons they couldn't stave off that regression. But it is just mind-blowing to me how everything that swung their way, the largest comeback in history against the Colts, it's all just gone the opposite way so far this year. So that's one. But the end of the game.

Now, Kirk Cousins' post-game press conference was maybe one for the ages where he was talking about why they didn't spike. He said that he couldn't hear, but he called a play anyway, which he does know the plays. And that play was the same play that Kevin O'Connell was trying to call anyway. So they were on the same page and he didn't spike it because he wasn't supposed to spike it. But then he commented, I can do whatever I want. I can, I can QB Neil if I want there or QB sneak, if I want there, I can do whatever. But then he said, I have to deal with the consequences. I don't know if there are any consequences to spiking the ball there, but a very defensive Kirk cousins who seemed to be saying, not my problem. It was the coach's decision. I did what the coach wanted and then sort of went into why his throw was a good throw

that ended up not working out. Uh, but he did blame himself for the KJ Osborne pass, which was wide, wide open. And I don't know if it wins the game. It might've actually been too fast. Yeah. They would have caught it. And then the chargers would have gotten another chance. And then who knows what happens from there, but a crazy ending and then a memorable press conference. And you can feel that all the, Hey, we're all in two,

but you know, we're fine and whatever else, all that stuff out the window after this loss, the heat just got turned up on everybody after this game. And of course, a lot of people will turn to, let's talk about the draft. Let's talk about tanking. Let's talk about next season. I don't know if that's a thing that they're going to do right away, but Owen three with a Packers win today, which was crazy. And then with a lion's win today, this is not an uphill battle.

This is a mountain to climb. And the only thing that Kevin O'Connell was gripping onto was, Hey, uh, when I was with the Rams, we lost three games in a row in the middle of the season. Like, Oh boy, if you've got a stretch to that, does this team look like that team at Aaron Donald? Does this team look like that team? But I know what he's doing. I mean, he's just trying to reach for something to be positive, but there is not a lot to look at and say, okay, well this, this team, this group, this collection of players can absolutely bounce back from Owen three. There is no feeling like that. Are you questioning today? Kevin O'Connell's game management. I mean, even a field goal early in the game when they're at the goal line is a little spotty. Or do you think that the whole non-spike thing was just a decision gone wrong

that we second-guess after it didn't work? That's a tough one because in the moment, while I'm watching the game, when you get a first down, when you go for it on fourth down late in the game, you convert, and you're at i think they are at the seven year the six yard line clock's ticking my gut says go spike it um you know i guess in madden if i was playing madden i would probably hurry up to the line and i would run it just the way the kevin o'connell and the vikings tried to do but when you're watching, when it's chaos, and I understand. So after they pick up the first down in Kirk's helmet, Kevin O'Connell is telling him, go.

He's saying, we're going, we're going, we're not, we're not clocking it here. If you want him to clock it, it would say clock. So, so Kevin O'Connell wanted to go. It looks like a horrendous decision in hindsight. And in hindsight, Kevin O'Connell wore it. He said, I should have clocked it credit to him. I guess he wasn't defiant and defensive like some other people get in those situations.

But yeah, I think right now you look at it in hindsight should have clocked it. I think at the time should have clocked it. I think you can question Kevin O'Connell's game management there. I think it's fair. I think he would question his game management there. I think you have to move forward and say like the coaches always talk about rules and coaching points and teaching points.

This feels like one that you might just say, this is what we're going to do in this situation. If clock's running and we're not going to get, the thing is they, it would have been hard for them to get four chances at the end zone. Anyway, even if they're trying to quote unquote steal that play, like Kevin O'Connell is saying there's about 30,

25 seconds left in the game. You can run four plays in that sense, but I'm assuming the plays that O'Connell wants to run in that area of the field, they're crossing, they take a little bit of time to develop. And then, you know, each play takes maybe seven seconds. You might not get four of those in. So I get the idea. I understand the logic. It's just, I think it's questionable at best trying to go there. logic was, and Kirk was doing what he was told here. His logic was that he thought that maybe

their defense was on their heels a little bit. And he mentioned potential matchups or not getting substitutions. Now each team is absolutely gassed by the end of this game. We're seeing dudes cramp up. Everyone's looking tired. They've been running back and forth down the field, 475 yards. Where's you out? I mean, right. So he, I think he was thinking we just got a first down let's run up there keep them off balance and get into the end zone on one play and here you go and I understand that logic I don't think that that is some sort of wackadoodle insane decision like what was he thinking whatever uh I probably wouldn't have done that I probably would have clocked it to give them a chance to just take a breath. And especially if Kirk Cousins couldn't

hear, then maybe he should have spiked it just knowing that he couldn't hear and wasn't sure what the play was supposed to be. And his own guys looked pretty gassed as well. But to me, even though this stands way out because they had a chance right there at the end of the game and it ends with a tip interception and it ends because of spike gate or whatever we want to call it the no spike game or whatever and this is very much a forest through the trees type of situation for me like yeah that's the reason you lost but it's sort of the same way we were talking about the fumbles over the last two weeks where it's, yes, the fumbles are the reason you lost. Or today, yes, not converting that in the goal line situation and botching actually multiple goal line situations are the reason you lost.

But also I noticed in Kevin O'Connell's opening statements, he was talking a little bit about pass protection on third downs was a problem and it certainly was. And he was mentioning once again, Marcus David port, if he was only in the lineup, then things would have been different, which I'm not sure is actually the case because they could not get a pressure on Justin Herbert who made lots of great throws. It was very impressive today. Very, very impressive for Justin Herbert, but also he's going to be impressive when they pick up every single blitz and he was able to sit back there and throw. And wow, Keenan Allen had one of the best receiver games I've ever seen in my life, including throwing a touchdown. So against the Eagles, they can't stop the run and against this team, they can't stop the pass despite throwing blitzes at him. I saw only Connelly tweet out that they blitzed like

40 times today and it didn't matter at all. And at some point, I don't know, maybe there's something you change there. I'm not sure. And, and so you set yourself up for a situation where even if they had scored on that pass to Osborne, maybe they lose anyway because they could not stop Keenan Allen. I mean, Mike Williams made a great catch. There were great plays, but they could not stop the passing game of the Los Angeles Chargers. And if you can't get a pass rush, I don't know who you're stopping. They're probably going to face Andy Dalton next week with a bunch of receivers. It's Adam Thielen, you, me, Ben Gessling. We're the Dalton next week with a bunch of receivers. It's Adam feeling you, me,

Ben Gessling. We're the receiving crew next week. But if you can't cover, you're not stopping anybody, especially, uh, you know, a group like this. If you can't get a pass rush, you're not stopping anybody. And especially when, what a great game plan by Kellen Moore. What a great game plan. He came in and said, you're going to blitz. I'm going to throw quick over and over and over and over again, because the accuracy of Justin Herbert, my goodness, the arm strength, everything was on display today, but this team cannot get any sort of pass rush. And they're just, they're just sacrificing defenders who are getting stopped by the offensive line and making it very easy. So it feels like anything talked about like, well, they didn't get this bounce. They didn't

get that bounce. They didn't spike the ball, whatever. It just feels like that's true. But in the long run, how in the world are you going to come back from where you are right now? If that's the lack of pressure that you get on a weekly basis i think it's good that you've kind of turned this to a more macro focus on the game because honestly me and you probably could have sat here and talked about kirk cousins press conference for an hour and a half and easily filled the time um but the loss was a lot by for a lot more reasons than just the ineffective or discombobulation down the stretch the the defense it's really no different than last year it looks a heck of a lot different than that donatel's defense but effectiveness wise the same so maybe worse i don't know they gave up 475 yards today

to justin herbert he completed something like. I can look it up right now. He completed 40 of 47 passes. A lot of those are quick, but when I've never seen anything like that before, when the blitz is bearing down, you still got to be accurate there. He's 40 of 47 for a 405 yards and three touchdowns could have had four, but they ran a trick play.

So Keenan Allen got a touchdown too. See, like if the Vikings would have, if Kirk Cousins doesn't get that fourth down, it doesn't pick up the fourth down with 40 seconds left. Then the spike thing isn't a thing. The miscommunication and my headset's not a thing. Kevin O'Connell saying I should have spiked the ball. It is not a thing.

What we're probably going to latch onto is yes, they were unable to score after getting into the red zone twice. But on the drive that the Chargers went up 28 to 24, which ends up being the final score, the only man you have to cover in the world at this point, because at that point he had something like 180 yards, is Keenan Allen. It's third and 17. It's third and 17. Theings are going to get the ball back

with the lead at that point it's 24 21 the vikings defense as bad as they were all day had somehow managed to force the chargers into a third and 17 justin herbert moves around in the pocket a little bit the secondary forgets keenan allen exists 20 yard gain first down the very next play of caleb evans has a ball go off of his hands it lands into josh palmer's lap in the end zone and that ends up being the final score so yeah i mean we could talk about the situational what's the opposite of master the situational unmastery down the stretch because that's all they wanted to talk about last year is how good they were in these situations. And I think, you know, there, there deserves to be some criticism there, but this game was won and lost a lot more than in that last 30 seconds.

And I think it's important that, that you kind of bring that up to kind of show the big picture here. Um, there's a lot of issues on this team and it's, it starts with Kirk Cousins. It's always going to, it's the quarterback of the team that makes a lot of money that makes it so you can't build out the rest of your roster because he makes so much money. So yeah, he's going to be the one that, that bears the brunt of a lot of this criticism. Kevin O'Connell is going to bear the brunt of a lot of this criticism, but the team as a whole has so many glaring weaknesses and they're becoming more and more obvious week in and week out like you said last week could not stop the run made deandre

swift look like the best running back in the league this week cannot stop the pass makes justin herbert look like the best quarterback in the league it could be a long long year so that's i mean that's where we're at right now folks want to remind you to make Little Caesars, the official pizza sponsor of the NFL, part of your game day. Order online during their Pizza Pizza pregame one hour before NFL games and get ready for some football and fun. Choose your favorite Little Caesars pizza or pick the toppings you crave. Either way, you win. And speaking of winning, everyone scores with convenient delivery or their in-store pizza

portal pickup. So grab some friends and enjoy a few slices during the tastiest hour before kickoff. Folks, we are going all in on prize picks this football season. And this week, I figured that Justin Herbert was going to throw for a lot of yards and nailed my pick but I underestimated Kirk Cousins let me explain if you haven't heard of it prize picks is the easiest and best way to play daily fantasy instead of battling against thousands of other fantasy geniuses who spend all of their time doing fantasy, you just pick more or less on between two to six players' stat projections, and that is it. So if a quarterback's number is 250, you say more or less,

and bang, you're playing. You can pick from hundreds of players and numbers this football season. I nailed my Justin Herbert pick going over 283.5 by a country mile, but I went less on Kirk Cirk cousins going 297 and uh yeah missed that one he went well over 300 yards but the cool thing is it was quick easy and does not cost an arm and a leg to play you can turn ten dollars into 250 with just a few taps it will fit your wallet and your busy schedule this is something we're having a lot of fun with all season long on Purple Insider. So go to prizepicks.com slash purple.

Use the code purple for a first deposit match up to $100. That is prizepicks.com slash purple. The code word purple. Daily Fantasy Sports made easy. That is where we're at. Your point about the fourth and 17, I'm sorry, third and 17 is, uh, is very much valid, but you know, something I said throughout the week about Justin Herbert that sort of came true and didn't at different times was in this game, he was throwing the ball all over the place and it

was looking really incredible. And then I looked up and they had 14 points and I was like, what happened? There was, you know, some three and outs and some sort of moments there where they just couldn't get going. And you went like, Oh, what? Wow. This is kind of the chargers offense and who they are, where you always think it should be better based on this quarterback. And so I've been calling them sort of Justin Kirkberg's. I think that there's similar type of quarterbacks with very different builds, right? And then when he made that throw, I was like, nevermind. I take it back. I take it back because that's the type of Matt Stafford ish type of throw that is of a another level that cannot be made by 90% of NFL quarterbacks. And it's why everyone believes

in Justin Herbert as a superior quarterback. And then like that type of play right there is the type of play that often the Vikings are missing. And where I want to go with this is kind of the third downs. I thought it was very much a theme of the third downs that you saw Herbert make a play and it was some sort of spectacular play, but he also had a run for a first down where they collapsed around him. Jaqueline Roy was playing and they collapsed around him. He runs for a first down. He had some escapability. He had one throw where someone was right here and he side-armed it to the guy. And it's only a four yard pass. There's nothing outstanding about it. When they show the little dots, you wouldn't see anything special, but when you actually see it in person with someone bearing

down on him and he can make a special play, those are the things that we don't have to be the difference, right? When those pressures are happening and it's like, well, you know, they've got Khalil Mack. I'm like, wait, is Khalil Mack good now? Like, I don't think so. And Joey Bosa got a sack or two and neither one of them was a quick beat. And that's not to say that I thought the offensive line was outstanding. The offensive line was good enough on a lot of those plays. And there's just not a playmaking element to be the difference. So then when you have a defense that has as many shortcomings as you have, you cannot fail on those third downs over and over. You cannot fail in the red zone.

And now I feel like, oh yeah, I remember this feeling. Last year, I didn't remember the feeling because they kept winning all those games of what it's like to cover a Kirk Cousins team where we're always talking about, well, you know, that thing happened. And that defensive lineman and this move in the offseason, it didn't work. Kirk Cousins team where we're always talking about, well, you know, that thing happened in that defensive lineman and that this move in the off season that didn't work. The one guy they signed who isn't healthy and, and, and the guard, that one guard who didn't block and, and Ty Chandler, he didn't get enough of the linebacker. And it really comes down to oftentimes that you need a play that is always one play short, you know, and so forth. So I felt a little bit of that today with the difference between two very, very good quarterbacks that

play a different style. But I also have a question and look, it's, it's not a criticism exactly. It was just, it is a genuine question. So you signed Dalton Reisner and Cam Akers. Akers comes from Los Angeles, says to us in the locker room that he knows 90% of the verbiage. Dalton Reisner was active. Neither one played a snap. So what happened? I mean, is there any case, and they would know better than us if they're ready. So I'm not saying I know better.

But is there any case to say, look, it couldn't have been much worse at right guard. So, or Hey, like maybe can't make, I mean, can't makers.

It wasn't needed today. Madison was fine, but even when Madison got banged up, they didn't have cam acres to go to. And I kind of still go back to these moves were made too late. So now you're Oh, and three. And what exactly did these moves do now? Yeah. now you're oh and three and what exactly do these

moves do now yeah the cam makers one i that's understandable um he passes his physical on thursday he goes through a basically a somewhat practice and then a walk through i get that he knows 90 of the playbook but he also doesn't know how to play with the people around him dalton the risener though that that one feels like something different than the Cam Akers one. Also, like you said, Alexander Madison deserves some props today. He was pretty good. He did have two fumbles that didn't count. One because his progress was stopped, and then one because I think the Chargers got called for a penalty.

So two more fumbles, but they won't show up in the box score, So we'll forget about them in a week or so, but Madison was good. So acres, well, I think the Vikings went out and acquired him because they think he might be able to bring something to their offense. What we don't know, but I think they think he will bring something to their offense, but he, I don't think he was needed this week. Reisner, yeah. Like, he was suited up. He presumably played three practices under his belt. That seems like enough. I also understand, like, being in shape because you're working out in your hometown in Colorado waiting for a call. And being in football shape is maybe a little different.

So maybe that's where, you know, the difference is. Like, hey, this guy, we don't know if he could play 68 snaps in a game or however many of the Vikings had today, but I still don't really see a difference between what we know. We know Ed Ringgram is, is not, not it. And he, he, he proved to continue to prove to be not it today. Um, Olay and guys for sacks getting called for holding. I don't know what happened looked like he just cramped up on the last play of the game where or the second to last play of the game where the vikings are go back to they should have clocked it probably because your right guard was like 15

yards trying to like limp his way in so he could get to the line of scrimmage which he presumably thought you were going to clock it but ed Ed Ingram just shows up way too much. And it's like the cliche, but if you're really good on the offensive line, like we just shouldn't really notice you. I always notice Ed Ingram, always. So, yeah, I think that there's something to be said about like, if you're going to sign Dalton Reisner and you're not going to play him, like you already did it two weeks too late.

And now we can say you did it in week three but this is still about three weeks too late because he didn't play in week three so i just don't understand like the thought process of like how much different it would have been with with reisner in the game instead of ed ingram um presumably better because it can't be much worse well and because that was part of the issue. And some of the key plays was that cousins was getting pressured and couldn't get the ball off and early in the game. And how often does this happen? This is where it felt like a throwback to me to like 2020, where Justin Jefferson looks frustrated early in the game. And people are talking about like, Hey, maybe throw to Justin Jefferson. What's going on here.

And look, I mean, they probably would have scored on the first drive, but the TJ Hawkinson fumble. And I guess that smacking them with giant things, whatever. We saw Tom Pellicero holding before the game on TV, some sort of thing they're whacking people with, uh, to make them not fumble or hitting them with helmets on a stick. Uh, I don't think that does anything. So good thing that you guys bought that stuff online, but that does nothing. So anyway, uh, Hawkinson fumbles that hurts them a little bit as far as drives go, but Jefferson really wasn't into it for,

I mean, I don't know if the second straight week is quite right, but it feels this way until they were losing. And then it gets to 21, 10 and the Justin Jefferson offense gets going again, but there isn't like a, and maybe everybody works this way. Maybe it's like how baseball hitters hit 10 home runs in a month, zero in a month or something. And they, you know, average five home runs a month. So maybe it's like that every quarter, Justin Jefferson, isn't going to dominate, but there are times where it feels like at the beginning of the game early on when it's being decided when the two teams are jockeying for position that it's not there, it's not driving the success. And then when they get down 21 to 10, now it's okay. Jefferson come ballast out. Or I mean, in this case, Osborne had the catch, but then to take the lead, it was just Jefferson, Jefferson. There's just, sometimes

it feels that way. And, uh, our, our guy, uh, Alec Lewis of the athletic asked a couple of people in the locker room, like, does it feel at all? Like there's a, a lack of a rhythm or a consistency to the offense. And to me, like a yardage total in this game does not tell the story at all. And the same as before, like against the Eagles, when you're down 27 to seven, you're going to rack up a bunch of yards on your way, trying to come back, throwing it all over the field.

And the same thing here, once you go down two scores in the second half, yards are coming. And we know that if you give a prevent type defense to Jefferson and to Kirk Cousins, they're going to slaughter that. And we know that if you give a prevent type defense to Jefferson and to Kirk cousins, they're going to slaughter that. And they always do. And yet it still feels like there is not a consistent drive of the offense. Like any drive, any time can kind of go three and out, or they could be sputtering and we can blame the right guard. We can blame not getting the right

guard, which, you know, they probably should have. They probably just should have paid his price on August 1st and been the end of the experiment at right guard. But it's just always sort of been what has happened with this team. And last year, they would come back and just win at the end. And this year year they can't and so there's this feeling as i walk out of this game knowing the big picture stuff which we'll talk about that there isn't really an answer there's only variance and there's only ever been variance as long as kirk cousins has been the quarterback there's always been the same exact discussions and i've walked down the stairs to the locker room and went, I know this song. Like this is, I've heard this song two years ago, 2021 situational masters or, Hey, our culture is better. So that's why we went in the fourth quarter. It's like, nah, I think it just goes this way. And I think you just ride that train when you don't have this consistent

driving force offense. And then the weaknesses that they have on the roster because cap space, they had to move on from older players, all the things we thought that they could be this year if things went wrong. Yeah. Good point. Because last year was really fun last year, 11 and one score games. It was fun for fans. I'm sure it was fun for us to talk about. I'm sure as hell, it was fun for the Vikings toings to just win those games but like if we just i mean it's not as simple as saying let's just cut them in half and make them like six and five but let's just do it for the sake of this in this argument right now then

instead of 13 and four they're eight and nine is that my math am i doing that correctly if you just cut it in half all the astonishing ways they won last year went their way, and they deserve credit for that. They did execute in those moments. But if we're seeing this year that the margin is so slim, nonexistent maybe, a lot of that was luck. A lot of it was fortune going their way. Josh Allen fumbling at the one-yard line in his own end zone.

Eric Hendricks picking it up and being like, oh, I scored a touchdown. Indianapolis just melting down on the field before our very eyes with a game that made Matt Ryan retire. Like if some of those games go the other way. And again, like the people who love Kirk Cousins are going to say like, well, he won those games. He deserves credit for that. He does. I get it like to a degree. But if some of those games went the other way, and we're starting to see this season early on,

0-3 in one score games, 0-4 if you count the playoff game against the Giants, like a lot of those games, there was just variance there. They don't ever just crush a team. They don't just pedal to the metal, win. And they hung around, and last year they came up on top in all these games this year they've lost every single one of them but it's not the last year's team this year's team the team two years ago the team three years ago they're all very similar is and i think that's the point you were making that like we know this song we've seen this movie

because this is kind of what the vikings have been they find creative ways to lose last year they find creative ways to win when you average out those two you're somewhere in the middle and you're somewhere in the middle of the league which is kind of where kirk cousins has been throughout his career so it's just the way that the discussion is going to continue to go because really kirk cousins hasn't proven outside of last year which is a statistical anomaly to be 11 and 0 in one score games that he's anything else than just a guy who a couple plays go different and you win or a couple plays go different and you lose um it's a razor thin margin for error. And I really think that's why Kweisi Adolfo Mensah,

when he first got the job and the USA Today article that, because to this day continue to scare him away from talking to us, was saying, we don't have a Tom Brady. We don't have him at home. Because deep down, he knew that. I think he knew that all along. And we're seeing that right now. Fall is here, gentlemen.

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Again, 20% off at calderalab.com with the code insider. Well, the next Mahomes, Caleb Williams is going to go to the Bears from what it looks like, what's going on right now. I mean, they got to fire their coach, the homes, Caleb Williams is going to go to the bears from what it looks like, what's going on right now. And I mean, what a, I mean, they got to fire their coach, I think, and just move on from the Justin Fields era. But, uh, aside from that, no, I mean, that's, that's the feeling of where do you go from here? And I want to get to that in just a minute, but I don't want to leave everything on the table. But one effect that happens often though, with this team is you see players have such great games and you just go, how does this team not win? Like, I mean, Jordan Addison today in the second half is just getting open all over

the place. And Justin Jefferson is unstoppable. And even they ran the ball well, and you go, you lost really, you couldn't, you couldn't finish that off. But day late dollar short is the best way to describe. I think the last five years of Vikings football, where even in the most fun, magical season, the second half of the year after the Buffalo game, they are a mediocre team that loses to a probably bad giants team at the end team at the end of the day. And then they open this season with three straight losses.

So now we're talking three straight losses at U.S. Bank Stadium, by the way. The rest of the season, O'Connell can talk about that great Rams team and so forth that lost a couple games in the middle of the year and bounced back. But I mean, I just I don't see that here. Um, especially when you are riding that wave. Um, but they haven't been a good team even record wise since the middle of last year. So why should we believe that's going to happen? But yet there's always this, Oh my gosh, Justin Jefferson is so good. How could you possibly lose? It almost reminds me of like Kevin Garnett as a Minnesota Timberwolf. Like this man is so good. And could you possibly lose? It almost reminds me of like Kevin Garnett as a Minnesota Timberwolf. Like this man is so good. And yet you're coming up a day late, a dollar short,

many times, which, you know, was not Garnett's fault. And this is the Kirk thing. It's never directly Kirk's fault. It's just the existence of the franchise since he's got here has been this. And, uh, it even ended that way last year. But I want to talk about Brian Flores and the defensive side, because of course the quarterback is always the discussion when he doesn't have a contract extension, what it means, are they going to move on from all those things at some point? But do you put any of the struggles in the last couple of weeks on Brian Flores? Because Ed Donatel became a punchline last year and Ed Donatel wouldn't have sent a blitz for anything. You could have offered him 10 million

bucks to send a blitz. He was, Oh, can I play cover two while I'm doing it? Uh, but yet this defense is not better. It's the same stuff. And I think the personnel was better last year and that was the frustration but I didn't see any terror on Justin Herbert's face the whole day I mean there was no discomfort for him whatsoever and so he sat back there they picked up the blitzes they made the plays and there wasn't really any sort of noticeable change in the second half it seemed to be just like blitz and what's next blitz again now again you mentioned madden engage eight let's go let's blitz all day long and then i'll drop somebody back and get an interception but they didn't cause turnovers there's one fumble where daniel hunter kind of makes a cool play and bounces it out of herbert's hands uh but aside from that

i mean they didn't cause turnovers they, I mean, they didn't cause turnovers. They didn't cause frustration. They didn't cause discomfort. Are you, are you putting it entirely on personnel or are you saying like, look, there's, you know, some things that could be different schematically here. You can't just the blitz every single time because you can't get pressure. Yeah. I think, I think it's largely on personnel. And I think in a lot of ways, Brian Flores to make some semblance of adjustment, right? His defense looked really good in the first half of the first game against of the season against Baker Mayfield and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. And since then, for I guess it would be 10 quarters now, it's looked horrible. And last week it was they can't stop the run. But we're still going to have a bunch of small guys in there that have shown

they can't stop the run, but this is the personnel that we want to run. And this is what we game plan for. And we're just going to keep doing it even though we can't stop the run. And I think the way they explained it after that game was, well, we wanted to make sure that we had eyes on Jalen hurts. And, you know, he know, he's, he's, if he makes one guy miss and we change up the personnel and we have three bigger guys, three down linemen on the field, then he's running open down the field. But we never even got to see him have to make one guy miss because the Vikings just invited

the Eagles to, to take six and seven and eight and nine and 12 yard games over and over and over again without an adjustment. Yeah, so I think that's on Brian Flores. I think you need to adjust. Today, they had a clear game plan, like you said. We're going to blitz the hell out of Justin Herbert, and we're going to try and make him uncomfortable and force him into this gunslinger, into these horrible throws.

Well, Kellen Moore had a game plan of, well, if you blitz, I'm just going to throw quick, and there's going to be no read. We're going to get the ball out quick in the playmaker's hands. That's why Keenan Allen had 7,000 catches today. But there was no adjustment there either. It was like you said, we're just going to keep blitzing. And hopefully one of these times it gets home. At one point, I think they had four outside linebacker rush end types.

I think it was Daniil, Hunter, DJ Wan types. I think it was Daniil Hunter, DJ Wanham. I think it was Patrick Jones and Andre Carter. And I get the idea. It's let's have these pass rushers get after Justin Herbert on third down. Well, none of these pass rushers, except Daniil Hunter, sometimes are winning their matchups. So it's not working. So you just keep sending your blitz.

And it just seemed like Brian Flores was just banging his head against the wall. So we're going to keep doing this until it works rather than adjusting, trying to change something up, throw Justin Herbert off his rhythm a little bit. Maybe, maybe invite the run like you did last week because Joshua Kelly stinks. So maybe you invite the run. You can at least get them in a second and long, maybe even a third and long, maybe had them in third and 17. And then Justin Herbert made it made a play. But yeah, I think part of this has to go on Brian Flores, but I will say that with the caveat of the team just does not have that many good players on defense.

Right. I thought that last year they did have a few, if not numerous good players on defense. I mean, we're talking about Patrick Peterson had a terrific season and so forth. And Eric Hendricks and Harrison Smith, I think were actively hurt by the system. I don't know that there's anyone who's been actively hurt by the system. It's just been, they can't win. They cannot win their matchups. And I was thinking about this today. When we go over the great defenses in the NFL and NFL history, whatever you can think of immediately, who would scare the other team? Like who would be terrifying? Who would you go into a game plan? And I'll, I'll tell you, I mean, 2017 Vikings, Everson Griffin is that guy. You are horrified of Everson Griffin. This guy could ruin are horrified of Everson Griffin.

This guy could ruin your game plan. He can get four sacks. He could strip sack you. He's going to be a monster to deal with all day long. I think Daniil Hunter is a great player who is not that guy, who is very good and gets a lot of sacks, and he will pressure the quarterback. I don't think that he's quite of that level of a Micah Parsons

or a corner like sauce gardener, where you have to have your whole game plan based around how do we avoid that guy? Uh, John Randall is mentioned in the comments. John Randall is that guy where you are terrified of Chris Dolman, John Ray, like the Vikings have had these guys through history. They don't have that. They don't have a single player you are terrified of. I think Harrison Smith once upon a time would have terrified teams. That's not happening anymore at this point. So if you're not afraid of anybody, you can pretty much dial up whatever the heck you want if you are them. And we also have to give massive credit to Justin Herbert for the game he

played because when he played, because when he played the Miami Dolphins defense a couple of years ago against Brian Flores, he really struggled against all the blitzes. So if you're Flores, you're like, well, I got him on all these blitzes before. Let's see if he's learned how to deal with them. To me, it's just in the second half of the game, maybe there's some idea of let's let him try to run and see if they could do it because Kelly's he's not fast. He is not quick. He's not that shifty. He's just not any good.

And that's not their starter. Like their starter is obviously one of the better running backs in the league in Austin Eckler. So having their backup in. But there didn't seem to be that change to, all right, they can't run today. So let's try to cut off some of these shorter passes and let's try to keep this some of this stuff in front of us. And instead, they just let him do it and do it and do it. So I don't think that Flores' defense is fitting with this personnel. But I also think this personnel cannot do the job. And like DJ Juan and Patrick like andre carter seemed desperate to play andre carter should be developing for a year on the on the bench and in practice and they're just calling him up to hope and pray that there's something there for andre carter like

good for him he got in his first nfl game undrafted guy but that's not somebody that you should be reaching to to have to play. That just really speaks to the personnel that they have. And, uh, M Sullivan, the comment says we're the new lions. It feels so much like the lions, like when they would win six games and Kelvin Johnson breaks the receiving record and Stafford's throwing it all over the place, but it doesn't matter because they can't stop anyone. And I guess that the question this leads into, so it doesn't go so far that it's just like senseless smashing everybody that we can see. Uh, I think we have to ask like if they lose next week or is there a time where you have to start having the discussion about trading cousins,

trading Daniil Hunter? I mean, the 0-3 stats do not lie, and they do not lie for a reason. I mean, the Packers had injuries today, and they got a win, and they look like a team that's good enough to win a good amount of games. And I'm talking eight or nine. And the Lions are still a good enough team to win, you know, nine, 10, 11 games or more. This team is now so far behind them that they are chasing from behind. Even if they outplay these teams the rest of the way, we already thought that they were

pretty close. And even now you're so far behind. So I, I guess, I mean, if they lose this week, we, we, I mean, it gets very serious about that conversation, but you you could you could make that conversation very serious right now i don't think kevin o'connell wants to i think he sees the passing game and believes that it is close and it could happen and i also think that if you give up totally on the season and then say hey justin jefferson would you like to sign a massive contract with us after we just made you play with jaron Hall for 12 games? Like that's a pretty hard thing. I think that nothing will happen.

I mean, I think that they'll beat Carolina and they'll lose to Kansas city and they'll beat Chicago and they'll lose to San Francisco and nothing will happen. And they'll just play out the season and they'll end up with a seven and 10 or eight, nine record. And that's going to be life. I don't think that this massive like trade Jefferson or trade Hunter or whatever, I don't think it's coming unless they're like, Oh, and seven. Yeah. I would feel better about doing that. If I would have extended Justin Jefferson, I knew he was mine for five more years. Even if I knew he was mine for four, three more years, four more years. But you don't.

And that's why it won't. That's why it won't happen. I don't think it will happen. I think you're right. I think the team is just going to continue to be in these close games. Some games, they'll probably get blown out. Kansas City, San Francisco. I don't think those games are particularly close.

I think there's probably going to be a few duds in there somewhere along the way. But I think most of the games for the rest of the year probably look a lot like this one. And I think the Carolina game could too. It did two years ago when KJ Osborne caught the game winning touchdown overtime. So I think a lot of the rest of this season is going to look like everything else because they're not going to blow it up. Do I think they should? Absolutely. Because I think the worst thing you can do this year is be seven and 10 is be eight and nine. And you know, who's good enough to make sure you win three, four or five games probably by himself is Justin Jefferson. The guy who was one yard away from starting the season with three straight 150 yard receiving games the dude

is a monster he's amazing you're not trading him you're hoping that you can convince him if you go down this rabbit hole of we're gonna take a step back here with hopes of maybe finding our qb of the future you're hoping you can sell jefferson on that. But I don't think they're going to have the courage to maybe even make that ask. And it's also like a hard thing to sell to ownership. Like, hey, we're going to be bad. I covered the NHL for seven years. The Rangers did this. They sent the New York Rangers were middling and they sent I think their GM, Jeff Gordon.

I think Jeff Gordon was their GM at the time. Middle of the season, the New York Rangers said, we're going to take a step back. We're going to try to be bad. And they sent a long letter to their season ticket holders and they got flamed for it. Rightfully so. Like, I understand, like I say, rightfully so. I understand why the fans would fire back like that. But it helped them kind of turn it around. Granted, I think they ended up getting Alex Frenier. Well, we don't have to go down that, that, that, that rabbit hole there, but

I think it's way harder to do that in football. And I think if you, as Casey went to the Wilfs and said, Hey, we really want to blow this up and we want to tell the fans what we're going to do. And, uh, we're going to make it pretty obvious because we're going to trade Kirk cousins. We're going to trade to Neil Hunter, and we're going to make sure that we can't even sneak wins out. If even if we want to, um, I think that you would be met with a resounding no from ownership. Um, and that's why I don't think it's going to happen, but I do think it should, because I, you're, you're probably not making the playoffs at this point only six or seven i need to get the stat right but six or seven teams have done it starting on three i i

don't get the sense that the vikings are good enough to add themselves to that list so if you're not making the playoffs this year then then what are you really working towards are you working towards being like kind of good and then drafting around 15? Or do you really look at this as an opportunity in a loaded quarterback draft to go find the next one? I think you should be there, but I don't think they will. Yeah, I mean, I think you're exactly right. I think unless unless they go 0 and 5 and then maybe. Yeah. And just to get to a couple of comments, Lee was asking what incentive does Kirk cousins have to be traded the incentive to try to make the playoffs. I mean, that would

be, that would be the thing. And maybe a team that he trades for wants to keep him, uh, and extend him if they like what they see. I mean, maybe that's not the New York jets. I don't know if Rogers is or not coming back, but the New York jets, if they don't fall too far behind, they could be a playoff team. And maybe that's what he would want, or maybe he doesn't want to move in the middle of the season and disrupt his family. And I don't know. That's very, very hard to say, but, um, you know, I, I, I think that when it comes to that whole bigger discussion, one thing that's very important is not having the jefferson contract done because if they had the jefferson contract all set then i think it would be much easier to be like who wants it the neil look at him he's really good still do you want him take

him for second round pick whatever go ahead uh and the same thing with kirk cousins where it's like uh okay well trade him away and Justin, let's have you play with Nick Mullins and Jaron Hall for a while. And Hey, look, you just got a hundred million dollars from us. So maybe you could just, just, just chill. Right? Like we'll, we'll, we'll work on this next year. Um, but when there's more pressure and anxiety to that, when you don't have him extended now, of course, people always freak out with these contract things and, you know, usually they get done and there's two franchise tags the Vikings have. So it's still, I think they have the leverage in their back pocket, but it makes it harder and the price goes up and it's just more difficult when the receiver is saying, but what are you

guys doing? Like, what, like, how are we going to win? Because Jefferson said it after today. I mean, Jefferson had a fricking unbelievable game again. And after the game, he was mad. I mean, he was mad on the sideline. He was mad when he was talking to us. And he said, look, I, when I lose, I'm, I'm TO right. And like, so that's not a guy who's going to say, all right, it's fine. If we just, whatever, because I got paid, but I think it would have made it easier. It made it, it would have made it easier the rest of the way to do what you got to do. But now you feel like you have to fight until the end just to not be like giving up and you can't really trade people. Even if you get the opportunity. The other part is, is there actually any opportunity? Would the jets feel like they were so far away to make

that trade or whatever? You know what I mean? There has to be a team that wants to make that trade that has to go into it as well. To Donkey Kong's question, Jefferson just had cramps. He was not injured. So, and to Jamie, Jefferson runs the team now. Yes, he does. He does. I mean, does LeBron run the team? Yes, he does. I mean, yes. Everything with Justin Jefferson is the most important thing to this, except for who your next quarterback is, period. Like that's that, that is just the facts. I mean, have you seen how good he makes her cousins? My gosh. I mean, it's, it's remarkable, but I do think we have to have a discussion just before we wrap up here. And I appreciate all the discussion in the chat and all of you watching.

Wow. But you know, there's going to be a lot of questioning of the general manager when your team starts. Oh, and three. And I think that a lot of it is fair and some of it is unfair. So that's what I want to talk about to wrap the show.

I mean, because I think if you're saying, look, you guys pinched pennies and didn't sign Dalton Reisner and then lost three games by one score when the right guard was a huge problem. What the heck? That guy was waiting.

He had his number. You didn't pay it. And now you're saying, and what you're saying? Well, look, we can carry over one more million dollar next year. Like, huh? Is that why you didn't sign this guy you can look at the defense and go all right where are we spending the money here marcus davenport serious history of injuries no surprise he's not playing you can you can look at

the draft on the defensive side what have you gotten out of it so far not a whole heck of a lot um andrew booth jr watched a lot of plays from the sideline today as well as Louis Seen, so that's not good. That doesn't look like pieces of the defense for the future. How are you going to find them if you haven't drafted them successfully? Although I think Caleb Evans has played fine. I felt really bad for him with that play, whatever, bounced off him. But the whole point is that when you say,

this is where I have to try to live in two worlds that when you say this is where i have to try to live in two worlds i when you say you're going to have a competitive rebuild and you're going to fight for the playoffs and you are going to be a good team this year around your all universe wide receiver and then you start oh and three i think it's fair to be like what the hell what what's the deal man like what what's going on here? Like why is your roster so incredibly flawed that you are losing games that you should win? But in the other part, I say, if you're the general manager

and your whole plan was to eventually get yourself to a point where you draft a quarterback high and build around that quarterback, I can't say it's the worst thing I've ever seen for this team to start off bad. And, and I don't think that it changes the plan from where they want it to be. It maybe only enhances the plan for where they want it to be. So I have to, I feel like I have to kind of both talk out of both sides of my, of my mouth with this.

Hit the nail on the head. I'm glad you went there because i know for a fact 100 quacey would never say it i know for a fact if we asked him about it he would deny it but i think deep down somewhere in there this competitive rebuild that he has coined from the minute he stepped forward at that podium and talked about it said those two words was i know deep down, this is him talking that my clock as a GM doesn't really start until I pick my quarterback. And for all the, the mishaps that have gone through Kweisi Adolfo Mensah's front office to this point, the draft, I'm sure a lot of people are going to talk about it.

We're going to continue to talk about it. His first draft, basically no NFL players right now except to caleb evans who aside from that that mishap today he's been pretty good it's fair to it's fair to question his decision making his his ability to evaluate talent the people he surrounds himself with that's fair um it's fair to say like you said like okay you want to be competitive let's surround this okay above average maybe even pretty good roster with all the tools that they need to be the best versions of themselves he didn't do that he didn't draft well in his first draft but i think right now all he has to say is just give me more time uh i, when 13 and four in my first year and I had a horrible

draft and we still went 13 and four and I haven't picked my quarterback yet. And I truly have always believed that GM clocks don't start until you pick a quarterback. Rick Spielman's didn't really, he was here forever, but his, the time clock did not really start ticking until he hitched his wagon to Kirk cousins. And then it was ifousins succeeds, Rick Spielman's a genius. If Kirk Cousins does not succeed, he did not. I get fired. I think Kweisi deep down knows this is always going to be a competitive rebuild. There were always deficiencies within this team, this build, this organizational build because of the guy we have under center. He said it, he said the quiet part out loud in his first interview with USA Today. All of these things that have happened since then, he deserves criticism for, but also I think this may have been

part of the plan all along. I think he wants to pick his quarterback as every general manager wants to. And I think he wants to give himself the highest probability that that quarterback he picks is going to hit. And the way to do that is to draft high, is to not draft middle of the first round and have to take Kenny Pickett and have to wait and know, let's just trade up and try and get Malik Willis or Will Levis. I think he wants to take a guy he feels comfortable taking a home run swing on. And to that point, all the criticism he deserves, if he gets the quarterback right, literally no one will remember that first draft. And so right now he just has to get the quarterback right. And I think everyone that's coming for Kwesi with his head on the platter will forget about that if he gets it right.

Well, I think that's absolutely right. Also, I noticed Jordan Addison is awesome. So I would like to point out that he drafted him as well uh i mean i don't know like we have to when we're talking about drafting it's always been and always will be a lot of randomness yeah and the randomness uh struck poorly with the 2022 draft and there was some mishandling but i also think that if you're just continually pointing to that, then talk about not seeing the forest through the trees. Like it is a horrendous draft as Rick Spielman had about, I don't know, five, six of them along the way. And so has Bill Belichick and every other general manager. But talking about that, that won't matter if you get the next decision, right?

I mean, I think that's completely right. The one problem problem is and i i just we can go on forever so i'm not going to do that but i just want to make this point since it's here in my noggin the one issue with setting up your team to not exactly be that great but good enough competitive rebuild whatever is if it goes sideways as it has so far the head coach not happy you you know you you did you said you did enough to keep our team competitive to give me enough defensive players and then wait you signed a guy with a serious injury history who never plays okay i mean right so i mean uh you know it's it's i think that there's a potential for tension to happen here and that i'm i'm feeling it already yeah between everybody i mean i'm feeling it through kevin o'connell's layered comments you know about some of the roster stuff oh well our protection

was an issue again i mean i i think that uh you know when when we're talking about oh well you know if we only had davenport back and everything out right like we're we're talking about, Oh, well, you know, if we only had Davenport back and everything right, like we're, we're talking about a little bit of layered stuff, Kirk cousins. Well, I could do whatever I want, but I have to follow what the coach says. Okay. Uh, right. And it's not my fault. You know, it's Hey, when you, even this week, Kirk said, well, you know, don't run the ball easily when you're down 27 to seven and everything else.

So, you know, I, I think that there's also, by the way, and we see this in the comment section all the time. There are a lot of people who decided on the day Kweisi Adafo Mensah was hired, they didn't want him to be the GM. And no matter what he does, it's not going to be liked. And I see you guys misspelling his name on purpose. Don't think I don't know what you're doing and what that is to be disrespectful to him. Like I get it.

I know that anybody who does that, what you're doing is you decided day one, you didn't want the guy as the GM. So you're not giving a full opportunity here. And we can also talk about in the off season, we all discussed what they needed to do. And we all agreed that you needed to move on from Eric Hendricks. You needed to move on from Delvin cook that you shouldn't spend stupid money on old free. We all agreed. Right. But then when you see it, you don't like it because it's Owen three, even though we all agreed, this was the right way to go. Then you're like fire the GM. Well,

I don't think you can have both ways. I think at this moment, Owen three might end up being the best damn thing that happened to this fricking franchise. And I don't know how fricking long. So setting up to do a competitive rebuild was the right thing. And I'm going to defend that even though they do deserve to be criticized at times for certain things that they have done along the way. So that's where we stand. Owen three it's wreckage. It's a disaster in the short term. In the long term, I don't know. We'll see how it ends up playing out. But this was kind of the expected reaction that I thought fans would have,

and we'll see where it goes from here. If they don't win in Carolina, things get really ugly. So those are my thoughts. Final thoughts, Nate? No. Preach. Amen. I totally agree. There have been people from the start

that just didn't want quacey as the gm not a football guy analytic background and until he no matter what he does it's not going to be good enough he deserves criticism totally agree but his biggest decision that he has to make as a GM, he has not made yet. And until then, I'll reserve judgment. Loved, loved the impassioned speech. Tell him. You tell him. Right.

And then also, and I just like just to be clear, not signing Jefferson, the first draft, like all these things. Yeah, we are. You're keeping we're all keeping a talent. OK, yes. But this isn't decided yet uh every game is not a referendum on the general manager i think it's about a bigger picture so oh and three it had to be this way we didn't even mention how vikings and chargery this was like just just classic right i mean it just had to be only a crazy wackadoodle game and everything else. So I guess I would say there's a lot more to discuss as we go forward and we will see where it all goes.

Dane Mizutani, Pioneer Press, does tremendous work regardless of wins or losses. And we will be here each week no matter what. So thanks so much to everybody who watched slash listened. And I don't know if you're listening, I'm shrugging and that's the end of the show.