Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Pro Football Focus's Steve Palazzolo talks about rebuilding the defense, approaches to free agency and the '99 Jags

Episode Date: March 4, 2021

Matthew Coller connects with host of the PFF NFL Show Steve Palazzolo to talk about the similarities between the Vikings' receiving duo of Justin Jefferson/Adam Thielen and the 1999 Jaguars with Jimmy Smith and new Vikings receivers coach Keenan McCardell. Steve dives into free agency to discuss where the market is going to be this year and how the Vikings can build a good defense again. Plus minor league baseball stories. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Get Coors Light in the new look delivered straight to your door with Drizzly or Instacart, Coors Brewing Company, Golden, Colorado, and as always, celebrate. Welcome to another episode of Purple Insider presented by Scout Logistics and by Simbol, your stock market for sports. Now we welcome in Steve Palazzolo from Pro Football Focus. Steve, we have a place that we absolutely have to start our conversation, but I want to get into a lot of different things regarding free agency and the Vikings, of course. But the Vikings made an acquisition this offseason that went deeply underrated,

and that was former Jacksonville Jaguars wide receiver Kena McCardell being brought in as their wide receivers coach. And this just to me brought back a flood of great memories from the nineties Jaguars. And then I asked Keenan McCardell on his opening zoom about, you know, the Vikings wide receivers and he did it. Not me compared them. McCardell and Jimmy Smith to Justin Jefferson and Adam Phelan. It's already been a great offseason for me, Steve.

Those teams were incredible, and I am now blessed to have talked to Kena McArdle about it. That is amazing. That's like my favorite time in NFL history or my favorite team in NFL history. The 90s Jags were like the team that really got me into football. I mean, I liked football growing up. I was more into football. I mean, I liked football growing up. I was more into baseball. And then I jumped on the 96 Jaguars bandwagon, right? As when they were bad though, remember they made a run,

they went to the AFC championship, but they were sitting there at four and seven. And I randomly jumped on the bandwagon and said, I'm going to follow this team. And then they made a run and went through the playoffs. And it was Brunel to McArdle and Smith. And that was added Fred Taylor a couple years later. Man, that's my team.

I love it. And I'm glad that we can kind of put a little Viking spin on it and have an excuse to talk about my 90s Jags. That's great. Here's your Viking spin. First of all, Jimmy Smith belongs in the Hall of Fame. Just get that out of the way. But I was looking at the 1999 Jaguars,

the 14-2 version, the one that blew out Miami 62-7 in the playoffs. But here was my message for the Vikings. You could throw it to Justin Jefferson more often because the Jags in 1999, we are talking many years ago now, threw it to Jimmy Smith 173 times in a 14 and two season so there's your message throw it to your number one receiver all the time and you will go 14 and two that's it that's all you got to do you know look I there was a point where maybe those Jags underachieved because I was like man they could continue to add to this you know they've got these two great guys they were always looking for that third receiver and complementary piece, but they had enough.

You know, even when things weren't great, they had enough in feeding Jimmy and feeding Keenan McCardle. And both guys had different skill sets. You know, Jimmy was more of a deep threat. His speed just played on the field. And Keenan, great possession receiver. So I actually compared Justin Jefferson coming out to Victor Cruz of the Giants. And Victor Cruz, when he was in the NFL, I compared to Keenan.

So there's my connection. I do think there are some similarities to the way Justin Jefferson runs routes to the way Keenan McArdle ran routes in the middle of the field and had that toughness and ability to work the two-way go. And Jefferson's maybe even better already, but definitely some similarities, I think, from them stylistically. Yeah, I mean, one of the differences is that Keenan McCardell was drafted in the 12th round because there was somehow a 12th round

when Keenan McCardell was picked. But I agree that McCardell did it with his route running. And Jefferson, even though he has a really impressive athletic profile, I think that that's really what makes him a star is that those things that people question with him coming out of the draft, fairly because he had played in the slot, as soon as he got on an NFL field, it just turned out not to be the case that he could blow away people at the line of scrimmage and he's got an extra gear. But what I always liked about McCardle is if you threw it

anywhere near him, he was going to catch it. And I feel the same way about Justin Jefferson, that there were times, you know, in the press box, you get a pretty good view of like the trajectory of the ball. And you could say, you know, just sort of with your mind, is it going to get in this guy's hands or how tough is this going to be? It's easier to see there than it is on TV. And there were so many times where I was like, oh, no, no way is he catching this one. It's too far out in front of him. It's too high. It's too whatever. And he was bringing it in. And then there's that sort of run after the catch, toughness element. I mean, I think there are a lot of similarities. Yeah. You know, so the thing about evaluating receivers is I think sometimes we get too caught up in contested catches and spectacular plays.

Like Nikhil Harry is a perfect example. He had maybe the most spectacular catch of anybody in his draft class back in 2019, one-handed catch against USC. But he doesn't separate very well, right? So it's like the contested catch ability is this add-on. And Jefferson, I think that sums him up really well. At LSU, he caught 12 out of his 13 contested catch opportunities his last year, which is insane. That's a crazy number.

But you're never drafting him because of it. You're drafting him because the shiftiness, the route running. And then it's like, as you said, oh, by the way, he's pretty good after the catch. Oh, by the way, he does have this catch radius and feel. And, you know, Kyle Pitts coming out of Florida has that, right? Like he's going to catch anything in the area code. And it's funny because that's not Jefferson's game, but it's one catch here and there, you know,

over the course of a couple of weeks. And that's what really separated him from the other rookie receivers and some of the other NFL receivers. He gets open and then, oh, by the way, he's going to catch everything in the area. So, yeah, that's what made him so special in year one. Now, the one thing I keep thinking about with the 90s Jaguars and Justin Jefferson is that the Vikings were running a 90s offense last year. And so here's the funny thing about that is that, you know, Jimmy Smith was averaging 15 yards a catch, and they were throwing it to him 170 times.

That's wild. And that's kind of the ballpark of where Justin Jefferson was, and I think they need to change that. I think that that is more of a 90s approach of you're throwing it down the field a lot. Like that's your main goal is getting, goal is getting big chunks of yardage. Your completion percentage isn't as high. I think as they change to a new offensive coordinator,

even though they want to continue with their system, getting a little more easy catches for Justin Jefferson, because he is a monster with the ball in his hands, should be a top priority. It's like as much as you and I love 90s football and early 2000s football, maybe move a little away from that with your superstar players now. I completely agree. Because, again, if you have receivers that can win underneath

and create after the catch, good space players, that has replaced the running game quite a bit. Oh, by the way, just to really make the connection, my Dalvin Cook, my comparison for him coming out was fred taylor amazing so it really they are really building my team and i'm naming all my kids after 2015 vikings so you know there's you know so many connections here but um you know dalvin and fred taylor have that big playability that's that's like tantalizing right so like fred taylor came in and his first start,

he runs for 78 yards for a touchdown on Monday Night Football. And it felt like, man, we're going to run this offense through Fred Taylor. And I almost do feel like the Jags left a little bit on the table, maybe even in the 90s because they were feeding him over and over and over again. And he's a great player, great big play threat. Dalvin's the same way, right? There'll be two, three, four games a year where it feels like he's winning it for you, right? And it's tantalizing. It's tempting to go feed Dalvin over and over and over again,

because he does have that big playability. But at the same time, yes, today's NFL is just so conducive to passing the ball and passing the ball on first and 10 and running. You can spread to pass and spread to run, but you can spread to pass and spread to run, but you can spread to pass on early downs and pick up those five and six-yard gains. And I do think there's an element to that where the Kubiak-style offenses through the years, if there was like a next step for them to take, as great as they are with the run game, as great as they are with play action,

I think there's certain games or just certain times when you do have to pass to set up the run and not always be so formulaic and I always felt like that was like a a next step for the Shanahan's the Kubiaks in some of those offenses this could be a game on the show could be like how 90s was your offense and uh you know i like it mark brunel actually well not just brunel but brunel in one game of jay fiedler threw more passes than the vikings did this year which is or then kirk cousins did this year which is pretty wild for a team that went seven and nine you can understand it for a 14 and two team that was getting ahead and running the ball and had a number one defense in the n. What a team that was.

But for a team that went 7-9 to throw the ball so little is kind of mind-boggling. I mean, you would think that they didn't have people to throw the football to, just by the way you look at the numbers. And that just wasn't the case. And I was looking into some of their situational stuff. Second down and 10 most runs in the league and a success percentage that's never going to be all that high when you're running on on second and 10 so it's it's interesting to me that you know Mike Zimmer talked about

really wanting to stick with the same offense but my question is are you going to stick with the same offense or are you going to stick with it but tweak the way that you're approaching it? Because if you don't, I think you're going to end up with the same results that are just good and not great. I don't know how far you can get running the Jaguars offense where Brunel had 14 touchdown passes in 1999. Because I know the 99 Jags inside and out, there was a point in that season where Tom Coughlin, who took over the play calling that year, and he was dealing with the media saying that he was too conservative. And he was being so conservative in part because that defense was incredible. They brought in Dom Capers, and Dom Capers is like, Mr. First Year, change the defense.

That's what he's known for. It was his first year. They're like, no, Blitz is left and right. And, you know, so the defense was great. Their punting game was great. Like everything was just like a head coach's dream, right? Special teams and defense and let's play more conservative. So they kind of like played to that. But again, it's a different era.

You know, it's a time where points are at a premium you know back then you know it was it was harder to score but it's also like yeah field goals were worth more back then you know and you could trust your defense a little bit you can't trust your defense the best defenses are still giving up over 20 points and not holding you know fourth quarter leads and you know two point two point uh two minute drill situations like you know, fourth quarter leads and, you know, two point, two point, two minute drill situations. Like, you know, you see teams, you see offenses move the ball in three and four plays, you know, and then flip in the field. So I think, I think NFL offense today just needs to be like, how do I,

how do I maximize points? Right. You know, using the, the baseball example, right. They got rid of the sacrifice bunt analytically, right? Because they were like, we're not playing for, don't play for one run, over time play for two, three, or four. Because one run's nice and it feels good and it's nice to get a lead,

but it's actually to your detriment, right? If you just maximize run scored over time, you're going to be fine. I think the NFL is the same. If you maximize point scored, you're going to be fine over time. The one proxy I'll use in modern day, right? Last year at this time, we were talking about Brian Schottenheimer and the Seattle Seahawks and how run-run pass they were. And I know the second half of the season wasn't great for the Seahawks and Shottie.

Shottie's not there anymore, but the first half of the year, they were doing a great job of early down passing. Russell Wilson was on pace for like 75 passing touchdowns and schottenheimer was scheming it up you know shallow drag shallow crosses were going for touchdowns and screens and passes to the running backs in the flat the pass game was so efficient not just because russ was chucking it down the field efficiently he's always done that but the underneath pass game was there and they were passing at opportune times so i think the think the adjustment can be made for a head coach that loves run, run, pass, and play defense like a Pete Carroll, like a Mike Zimmer. And I'd almost look to the first half of the year Seahawks as maybe a proxy for what that adjustment would

look like maybe for the Vikings next year. The ironic thing about the Vikings is that when they would get down in some games and have to pass, they would lean on Justin Jefferson and do really well. And I don't think it was just garbage time. And there were close games in the fourth quarter where they succeeded. And when you look at Jefferson's targets in the second half compared to the first half of games, it's remarkable how much more they look to him

in the second half of games. It's like, guys, maybe do that just right from the beginning. Their corners won't be – Jacksonville's corners will not be able to cover Justin Jefferson in the first quarter. I promise you that that's not going to happen. So as we go down this road, I did want to ask you, is there a Brunel-Cousins comp a little? Or would you say Brunel was better? Okay, I'm road, I did want to ask you, is there a Brunel Cousins comp a little? Or would you say Brunel was better?

Okay, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. My favorite player. My favorite player of all time. I think he was better. I think he was better. But also a guy who was not necessarily a big first-round pick or whatever and was on a team that had just an amazing supporting cast. It's not the Kirk Cousins that was from last year where the defense was horrible

and everything, but when he first gets there, 2018, and they've got a good defense and they've got Diggs and Thielen and all those things, and he puts up the big numbers, there is, I think, a little bit of a comp there. Mark Brunel was never the best quarterback in the league. He was kind of like steer-the-ship type of guy. No, it's a comp there. Mark Brunel was never the best quarterback in the league. He was kind of like steer the ship type of guy. No, it's a fair comparison. I've never

made the comparison. But yeah, I always felt like there was more in the tank, though, for Brunel. Again, I was a Brunel super fan and I'm also realistic. I know looking back at games, I'm like, man, he got away with some stuff. He wasn't the best quarterback in the league,

but there was that point where they went from really pass heavy. The defense started getting better. They added Fred Taylor and Brunel had to do a little bit less, right? There's also the elements of Jaguars backup quarterbacks, whether it was Jay Fiedler or Jamie Martin would always be able to come in and move the ball a little bit. And I think that did show just how good Smith and McCardell and some of the other weapons that they had really were.

So, yeah, I think there is a little bit of that. So here's the other comparison I'll make. When Fred Taylor showed up in 98 and 99, that's when Marshall Falk in 99 for the Rams became this amazing past game weapon. He was always a past game weapon, but it was like, okay, he's a past game weapon with Isaac Bruce and Torrey Holt and, you know, Kurt Warner's steps out of the grocery store to become MVP. And I always felt like the Jags could do that. Even in the nineties,

I was like, pass, pass, pass, let's go stop running the ball. Let's pass. That was my mentality. You know? And it was like, if you're playing Madden, it's like, man, how are you going to just play Madden in the NFL? How are you going to cover Fred Taylor and his speed? How are you going to cover Jimmy and Ricardo and some of the tight ends that they had? I think the Vikings have elements of that, right, with Jefferson and Phelan. Like how are you going to cover those guys?

How are you going to cover Irv Smith, who has wide receiver-ish ability at tight end? And how are you going to cover Dalvin Cook, who has wide receiver-ish ability at tight end. And how are you going to cover Dalvin Cook, who's not going to go out there and run routes like Christian McCaffrey, but just run them deep every now and again and say, okay, you get a step, we're going to chuck it up to you. I think there are similar elements there as well, where if you just think from a pass game standpoint,

look at all these mismatches that we can create. And I think that's the NFL, man. I think the NFL is getting, putting three and four guys out there that are difficult to cover and making defenses make decisions. How am I going to stop all of these weapons? And the Vikings have the elements to dictate the action and make that happen. I feel like we should just stay on this train of 99 Jags and what we want the Vikings to be and so forth because I was thinking of one other one which is the fact and you kind of mentioned this that they were never able to find that number three guy you know they tried Elvis Whitted, Reggie Barlow, I

mean anybody plus they also had an amazing fullback and the Vikings still use a fullback and Damon Shelton but that number three wide receiver went underutilized by a lot of 90s passing offenses there weren't too many and maybe that's kind of where the Rams and the Vikings in the late 90s opened things up with the three deep for the Vikings and then you had your Oz Zahir Hakim and guys like that Ricky Prohl that were running out there supporting cast guys for the Rams but that was something that this team was short on that the jaguars were short on and it did feel like at times that opponents could slow down that it was possible to slow down the top two starters if you had a

good defense and that got in the way sometimes for them like when they played tennessee in 1999 and they lose 33 to 15 or something right yeah sorry so sad i know i know it is it is the championship a great titans team but that titans team had an incredible defense too but i feel like the same thing is for the vikings and just you know connecting that to the draft and free agency if you're naming all the things they need there's a lot but I feel like that one can't be overlooked because even teams with great combinations of wide receivers historically have had them shut down at times when you get into the playoffs and games against good defenses. Yeah, look, I think there's a lot of elements at play there. So people like to talk about balance

on offense, right? You got to run, you got to pass, and they call it balance. I call balance essentially the ability to throw the ball to all levels of the field. And they'll call it three levels of the field. So throw it short, throw it at the intermediate level, throw it deep. That's 75% of your plays, and then the other 25% is running the ball. To me, that's balance, right? So and what that really is is having answers. So, offenses need to have answers for what the defense, defenses throw at them, and have answers for what the defense is trying to take away. So, yes, in theory, you can take away two receivers, and then, okay, if they take away my two receivers because of how we play defensively, I need a tight end, or I need an

elite running game, or I need a third receiver, whatever it might be. I think the other thing too is in the 90s, if you had a third wide receiver, defenses just weren't naturally like equipped to handle that. It's like, wait, you three wide receivers on first down, like, what are you doing? We play base. Right. So then you can take advantage of mismatches. But the inverse of that today is when you go three wides on early downs, that opens up the running attack that, you know, you can spread to run. You don't have to run with multiple tight ends and with the fullback, right? Because that's, even with a great Dalvin Cook back there, if the defense is trying to stop Dalvin Cook, if they decide we're going to take Dalvin Cook away

today, they can do it for the most part, right? You just, you throw an extra guy in the box and over time, you're going to stop the run. So what's the answer to that? You run play action, you throw, you spread to run, whatever it might be. So I think a good offenses have flexibility. So if you're, if you're saying, Hey, the Vikings need a good wide receiver three, absolutely. And then what's going to happen over 16 games, there's going to be a game where Jefferson and Thielen get all the attention and wide receiver three or Irv Smith is going to be the guy.

Or there's going to be a game where, you know, you're spreading it out and teams are like, just run the ball. And Dalvin's the best guy to do that. I think he's one of the best pure running backs in the league. He's going to average six per carry and, you know, bust a big one and you're going to have efficient offense. Then you're going to have teams that just run their scheme. They're going to say, hey, we run cover three.

And Jefferson and Thielen are going to have one-on-one opportunities, and they're going to get theirs, right? And that's what happens over the course of 16 games. You have options. And this was the Bucs this year, right? The Bucs have all these great weapons, and one day it's Mike Evans, and then it's Chris Godwin, and one day it's Mike Evans, and then it's Chris Godwin, and one day it's Antonio Brown, and Gronk didn't do anything in the playoffs, but he did

something in the Super Bowl. Leading up to the Super Bowl, it was all Cameron Brait. They had options, right? And they had a quarterback who was willing to distribute. I think that's how you win. And on the inverse of that, and I know Eric Eager will say, as great as Tyree Kill and Travis Kelsey are, if you can slow them down a little bit, man, where's that third option? And that definitely affected the Chiefs in the Super Bowl. Those guys are so good it didn't affect most games, but they didn't have that option in the Super Bowl, and it came back to bite in that one game.

That's what the best offenses do is have those options. The other thing is the best defenses when you get into the playoffs, which is where the Vikings want to see themselves next year. But when you get into the playoffs, teams are going to really scheme for you and they're going to make changes for you. I mean, that's a, I just read a really good breakdown on how the Tampa Bay went to that three safety type of thing.

And they kind of created this umbrella and they said, no Tyreek Hill big plays against us and then we're going to rush with four or five and you know your offensive line is garbage so we're going to get after you but this is exactly what San Francisco did to the Vikings in the playoffs two years ago they basically said like you know our defensive line is better than your offensive line and we're going to mostly take your top two receivers out of the game so you're going to have to beat us with your offensive line and of course the Vikings have not beat anyone with their offensive line since uh 2009 basically so it's been it's been a long time and I just

think that's really interesting that you know you could exactly what you said teams that play cover three Kirk Cousins smokes them you get one-on-one opportunities but when you get in the playoffs even a cover three team might say well now we're going to scheme directly for you we're not just going to play our game we're going to you know take this away now i'm sticking with the jaguars thing they had a ton of sacks in 1999 i mean a boatload they had great players they had tony brackensens, Kevin Hardy, Gary Walker had 10. Bryce Popp was around still and got a sack, I think. But they had 57 sacks that year. The Minnesota Vikings last year did not have 57 sacks.

In fact, they could not sack or pressure anyone. Now, here's my question for you, though, Steve. Free agency, the draft. I'm looking at J.J. Watt's number for what he got from Arizona and saying, wow, that's a lot of guaranteed money for someone who's old and who has had an injury history. The Vikings have a tough decision, I think, with Daniil Hunter for what to do. You look at free agency, the top guys are probably going to get way overpaid. You could see someone giving Trey Hendrickson from the Saints way too much money for 13 sacks. Where do we stand with paying defensive linemen gobs and gobs of money? Because

I feel like it's a position that is really deep now in the NFL and that that might not be the best idea to throw heaps of cash at defensive line? Yeah, it's a good question. I think, you know, a lot of the studies we've done at PFF, it's like, hey, you know, coverage is more valuable than pass rush and this and that. And I know that's speaking like in a vacuum, but I think it depends on the defense as well. That theory that we've come up with that Eric and his team have studied is essentially like, hey, if you can make the quarterback hold the ball a tick longer, that helps your pass rush.

We know that, right? But it's almost like it means more than we thought. However, the second part of that strategy is almost like, well, you do want to pressure the quarterback. You do want to speed up his process. But the teams who do that best are the teams who schematically play like the New England Patriots or like the Baltimore Ravens, who not necessarily blitz a lot, but blitz opportunistically. The Ravens do blitz a lot.

The Patriots don't, but they play tight man coverage. So the pass rush needs to match what's happening on the back end. So the Vikings have relied on that four-man rush a lot, and when you look at the defense getting worse through the years, dating back to since 2017, it's like, all right, they lost depth year after year on that defensive line. They lost a little bit of depth in the secondary or performance in the secondary. So I think from a Vikings standpoint, you want to build on both ends, right?

As much as you possibly can. As far as individual players making too much, I think there's an element to that for sure. So like with Watt, you know, we just had our PFF NFL Daily podcast. It's like, hey, does he change the balance of power in Arizona? No, but like he's a step in the right direction, right? You pair him with Chandler Jones. Maybe they still want to pay Hassan Reddick and bring him back. Now you're

rolling three deep with pass rushers, and it's good. So it's about having that depth, I think, across the line. That Niners 2019 team that went to the Super Bowl, it was because they had four or five legitimate guys who could get after the quarterback, from Nick Bosa to DeForest Buckner, Eric Armstead, Dee Ford when he was healthy, right? So I think one player is never making that massive difference, but you want to try to – I mean, this is simplistic. You want to try to find as many as possible. And when you have nobody, you have a Minnesota situation like last year.

And, again, you want to be able to win games in different ways, right? Some games your defensive line should be able to take over and win it for you. Some games, it's the secondary. And when you just don't have that depth, it's a lot more difficult to have consistency week to week. Hey, folks, I want to welcome a new sponsor to the show, Symbol. Symbol is a sports marketplace where you can trade shares of professional teams just like stocks. Except for it's not as complicated as the stock market. It works like this.

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One of the best players in the league, hands down. But if you have several players along the defensive line that you can bring in, if you can get a – he'll probably sign elsewhere, but like a Shelby Harris, who's pretty good, and maybe a Vinny Curry or something, these situational rushers, then you draft a guy in the first round, you bring him in, he's rushing. Maybe a Christian Barmore, he's rushing the passer. That that is worth

more than one player can possibly be worth even if he's a you know a 10 to 14 type of sack guy but just the the accumulation of that and plus when Everson Griffin was there they were they were putting the star around his name first I think a lot of teams I mean just they were I asked Eric for this data once and he told me that, you know, they pushed their chips and their doubles and everything toward Everson Griffin. Well, that's going to go toward Daniil Hunter now, and that's not to say he won't still sack people, but I think that's a point about if you only have one guy, that guy's going to get a lot of extra attention.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and then you have to,. And then you build with depth across. I think it's a viable strategy. I think it is absolutely worth looking at. And again, it's almost like that Niners situation a couple years ago. They had all those pieces in place and then added Nick Bosa to it. They had a good foundation of a defensive line and then added Nick Bosa. From a Vikings standpoint standpoint you're talking

about it the other way right so your strategy is you know finds the other pieces to complement Danell Hunter or use him essentially as a chip to allow you to get multiple rushers and I think it's a viable thought even even like an Alden Smith if you're willing to bring him in he's a free agent coming off of you know after not being in the NFL for a few years but I think if you're willing to bring him in. He's a free agent coming off of, you know, after not being in the NFL for a few years. But I think if you just get a few guys who are good, there is an element of, you know, that being more effective than just having one guy that's great. Okay, I got two more things for you.

One thing is I want you to tell me, like it's funny about asking about underrated free agents because once you say them, they sort of become not underrated. It's like I've seen everyone call Shelby Harris underris underrated i'm like is he now though like carl lawson's a little underrated like what i don't know because we all think that anyway it's uh maybe that's too meta for the podcast but um i think the vikings have to go that way like you just look at their cap situation and chasing big fish is a very difficult thing for them to do in their current spot unless they do a lot of work to chase one player so is there is there a position group

in your mind or is there something that maybe even analytically would point to hey if you want to be savvy in free agency maybe this is the direction to go. What's your kind of feeling on that? Yeah, so I think with the Shelby Harris, so as far as like underrated goes, I think you're right on Shelby Harris, you know, and it's kind of like, not to sound ridiculous, but at PFF, we will have different rankings than other people. But as soon as we put our rankings out, I think, you know, that does change the perception of those players,

right? You know, now than it did, you know, seven or eight years ago. So Shelby Harris is underrated, but we may have opened people's eyes that, you know, he's rated, you know, he's good. So I think he's definitely a guy, Lawson is the same thing. You know, I've talked to people that are like, oh, he's not that good. He's only got one move. And it's like, all right, well, he just wins with that one move more than every other rusher in this class. So that matters. You know, that's important. I know the Vikings probably aren't going to go this route, but cornerback, I think, is the one where people – it's a naturally volatile position.

But then in this class in particular, every single free agent at corner has had a good year. But it just wasn't last year. It was like two years ago, three years ago, or it's a Richard Sherman out there. So given the investment that the Vikings had in the draft the last couple years, I'm not expecting them to go that way. But I think for other teams, they're going to sign one or two corners that are going to make or break their year. They're going to sign Ronald Darby and Jason Verrett on the cheap and all of a sudden be like the football team last year got a really good year out of Ronald Darby. And it's going to lock down that that secondary. So I think that's like the most volatile position that there could be some some serious hits in free agency.

I think that that was the position they missed on last year and still should go after, even though they drafted two guys. You mentioned the volatility. I don't know if Cam Dantzler and Jeff Gladney are good yet. I don't think anybody can after one year. So you need more and more depth. And they proved last year they're running out some guy named Chris Jones who, who? Right. And he gives up 131 quarterback rating like that can't happen to them again.

Right. It's not in team's nature to do that I mean I remember arguing with Eagles fans a couple years ago when they had like Avante Maddox and Rasul Douglas and all these guys who were like in year two or three who had shown flashes and I would like mock a corner to the Eagles like and fans were like oh no we got seven you know young guys and well guess what The Eagles needed corners that year. They needed them the next year, and they need them now. You know, so – but it's just not in teams' nature a lot of times.

I can't imagine the Vikings are going to say, let's bring in some competition for Gladney and Dantzler at this point. You know, maybe a Mike Hughes compliment. But, look, that is the right strategy, though. Volume, volume attacking a corner. Matt Filer is, I think one of the more underrated players at guard, guard slash tackle. I think he's the, he's one of those PFF names. We're going to look at like, he's graded well at tackle.

He's graded well at guard. It's not a really deep offensive line class. And I think somebody is going to get a steal from him. You can play him at guard or tackle, which I think is great. So I think underrated names, he's another one to keep an eye out for. Folks, I want to remind you about our friends at SodaStick. Spring training games are happening. Baseball is coming, and you're going to want to check out all the great baseball gear

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It's remarkable how often they move guys around and it doesn't work. Okay, last thing is I think because you played minor league baseball and I broadcast minor league baseball, we should just exchange a story each. So I'm going to start, and you can think of a story. I covered a player once who did not want us to play over the PA, the song Call Me Maybe from Carly Rae Jepsen, because he said it would get stuck in his head and it would distract him. So when he went up to the plate, he would be humming or thinking about call me maybe and could not focus on batting. And it was at that moment, it was very clear that this was not going to be a major league baseball player.

I'm over here nodding like, yeah, I can relate. I can relate. And there's a reason why I didn't make it either. You know, easily distracted by a song. It was a catchy tune back in 2012. It really was. But you're going to have to be able to focus a little bit more than that, I think. Oh, my gosh, yeah.

That is hilarious. Trying to think story-wise. You know, I can't remember if I've told this to people before, but Madison Bumgarner. So I just like to name drop the guys I played with. I was there for Madison Bumgarner's first professional day. We were in Instructional League in 2007. He had just been drafted in the first round, fresh off his farm in North Carolina,

flies out to Arizona. And, man, I don't think people realize how difficult it is to get drafted out of high school. You know, I always say, like, when you go to college, you get to be a freshman with other freshmen. And you just kind of, like, find your way and you mature and you leave as a senior. But a high school senior has to become a man, like, right away. Like, hey, you're in professional baseball. Sure. And you're in professional baseball with expectations.

Like, we just gave you $2 million. Like, go do something. We just gave you $6 million, go do something. Right. So I can't relate to that. I can't imagine. So bum bum Garner showed up and he was just a funny, good old country boy all the time. Right. You know, just, and that's what, that's the opposite of the story you just described. He wasn't distracted by anything.

So like my quick stories on him was I think the first day he was like you know trying to you know he got like almost got into like a fight with one of the veterans and I think the veteran was kind of like trying to be I'm not I'm not afraid of this first round high school kid and then Madison was like oh mom I'm not gonna get pushed around here on my first day they almost he almost go to a fight day one I think he was really homesick his first fall and almost was ready to hang him up. Like he was ready to quit and give millions of dollars back and go back to the farm, which was a good decision not to do that.

And then the following spring training, he pitched in one of his first major league games. He was a fastball slider guy. And he's like, man, I really need a changeup. I need to learn a changeup. And I showed him a changeup grip, like, on the spot in the weight room one day. And he went in his next game, and he threw it. He just threw it in the game.

You know, a lot of guys just, like, need time to worry. Oh, let me work on this for a month. He just throws a changeup. He goes, Steve, changeup worked great. It got a foul ball from Ricky Weeks. Worked great. So I taught Madison Bumgarner a changeup. He used it and then never used it after that.

He was fastball slider his whole career. But, you know, to me, he was just such a funny character in the opposite of me because he was really, really good, really, really talented, and really mentally strong because he just didn't care about anything. People don't realize the homesickness thing is for real. I mean, my team was in the smallest town in the middle of absolutely nowhere and uh one of my other favorites just to tack on was that a guy left the team for a week to go to his buddy's wedding just like and that for a week

for a week because it was in california so he to fly out there. This was in New York, so, you know, it's a long flight. Had to fly out there, go to the wedding or whatever, comes back. Maybe it wasn't a whole week, but like three or four days later, and they let him play in one game and then cut him. Oh, wow. Yeah, ruthless. Like, yeah, sure, you can go to your buddy's wedding, let him come back, play in one game.

All right, that's your last game. Get out of here. But, I mean, that does happen a lot. By the middle end of the season, mean you are playing like seven even in short season like 70 games in 73 days and as a broadcaster i broke a few times they batted out of order once and i lost it i was just like what what are we doing here my little league team didn't bat out of order i guess my dad was a better coach or something. I got in a little trouble at times for that.

And they only give you peanut butter and jelly at that level. So, you know, in long season, it's 140 games in, like, 150 nights, right? So I was like, I just had 140 peanut butter sandwiches in 140 days. That was your pregame meal. It took me, like, five years before I could touch peanut butter again after I retired. I mean, there's like a support group on Facebook for former minor leaguers that are trying to work their way back to eating peanut butter. So, yeah, it's a funny world.

You have guys sleeping in like one-room apartments like four dudes to an apartment. I mean, they make so little money, these guys who are not the first-round draft picks. And where I was in short season, I mean, if we got a fifth-rounder, we're like, ooh, wow, a fifth-rounder. Like, you know, and the guy never made it. That is the big difference. Like a fifth-rounder in the NFL is like a throwaway. In baseball, it's like, man, you just made $128,000, and that's a nice signing bonus

because most guys don't make bonuses. And the fifth round is like you're a priority guy, seventh round. If you're a top-ten round round is like you're a priority guy seventh round if you're a top 10 rounder like you're a priority guy in that organization i'll give you my best guy i called before we wrap up mookie bets and when he he played shortstop and he weighed about 165 pounds and he's horrible he was awful i mean i think he struck out like seven out of eight at bats for the two games that i called for him and i was just like i don't know baseball america says this guy's some sort of prospect i don't i don't get it he's like he's a stick so i guess that's why i'm not in scouting in baseball that happens a lot in baseball though guys that because you know there's so many it's a

big sample size so you could catch him at a wrong time or people can project and it's tough to see yeah that's uh that's funny yeah he's and you know you didn't see the future hall of famer huh yeah yeah no not at that time i saw the guy who had uh only been eating peanut butter sandwiches and needed something a little better in his diet so uh i love the pff nfl daily though i will tell you that your your monster podcasts with sam are still a must-listen PFF NFL podcast. But the Daily thing is great. You can just give your burst opinions on things happening in the NFL. So it is awesome.

People should go find that. PFF NFL Daily. Follow you at PFF underscore Steve if they're not. They're foolish for not already doing that. So great stuff, Steve. I'm glad that we could just, like just connect on a deeper football-y level here with minor league baseball and the 99 Jags. Oh, man, any time.

What a special connection we have here with all my favorite stuff from the past. I appreciate it.