Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Reacting to an insane weekend of divisional NFL playoff games and a rumor that the Vikings are interviewing Todd Bowles a second time

Episode Date: January 24, 2022

Matthew Coller and Paul Hodowanic break down the sheer insanity of the way the Bills and Chiefs game ended and discuss what it means that Matthew Stafford is going to the NFC Championship. Plus NFL Network reported that Todd Bowles is getting a second interview with the Vikings. Is he a good candidate for the Vikings' head coaching job? Plus, what does Stafford making it mean for Kirk Cousins? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to the what, what, what, what, what, come on, what, you have to be kidding me. Are you serious? What? What? What? What? What? Come on. What? You have to be kidding me. Are you serious? What? That is a recap of all the games. The podcast is over. Matthew Collar, Paul Hodowanek. That's it. That's all I have to say, Paul. You have to be kidding me with the four games two days that just happened insanity every single game culminating with patrick mahomes being given 13 seconds to somehow get like 50 yards and found a way to do it to set up harrison butker who couldn't kick it all all day and then drills it right down the middle and then the coin toss would never go to buffalo come on uh vikings fans listening to this uh allow me to tell you um it never goes to buffalo on that coin toss in the same way that it went to new orleans in 2009 it was never going to

buffalo they were not winning that coin toss that man was not missing that field goal as soon as they got in field goal position that thing was over in 13 seconds is too many in the nfl how many teams scored too fast that's our big postseason takeaway paul don't score with even 13 seconds remain i mean this was the craziest four games in two days of divisional football of my lifetime. And it's usually pretty nuts, but this was extra, extra nuts. Yeah. I, I, I was laughing. Josh Allen loses the coin toss and he goes and sits down and they periodically check on him. I'm not sure he moved.

I'm not sure he changed where he was looking. He was just dead. Staring straight. Just, just, he just knew he knew what was happening. just knew. He knew what was happening. I think we all knew it was happening. Just an incredible game. It makes you just remember why you love football so much. It puts last week's games behind. You're not worried about the seven seeds anymore because you just saw that. You saw Mike Hughes just die on the field, potentially.

I'm not sure we saw him after that. I'm not sure we will see after that i'm not sure we will see him after that that might have just been his lasting memory um just an incredible incredible game uh we i don't know how much we were going to talk about this game coming in but this is this is everything this is the game this it was incredible and i mean how many seconds is too many seconds to give them a homes they had 13 what do you think you could get like eight eight is eight too many like what's what's the number I mean think about the quarterbacks in this game yeah I mean it's they got there they set themselves up still with I think like two or three seconds left on the clock so they could have even done it in less

than 13 seconds this will forever be guarantee you, people in that city, they do the same thing you do in Minnesota. They have names for stuff and everybody knows the names for stuff. The wide right, you got the wide left, you know, that kind of thing. And 13 seconds will be forever brought up. Generations of people will bring up 13 seconds.

There's also a game in the 80s where a running back dropped the ball, the Ronnie Harmon game, which was an incredible, I believe divisional round game between the Bills and the Browns. So like things like that, those will always, always come up. And this one will. But I think the big takeaway from that game is, A, those are the Super Bowl teams that may have been the Super Bowl. Those are the two best quarterbacks.

Those are the two best quarterbacks. Those are the two best. I mean, now that Rodgers is out, but Josh Allen at this moment in his life is probably even better than Aaron Rodgers is. I think that's probably accurate after, although Kansas City refused to cover anyone. So that's a different story. But Josh Allen's running ability is so valuable on third and fourth down that this is like, it's hard not to make this point right off

the beginning, but when you watch Kirk cousins, do you see any of that? I just like, of course you don't like, that's kind of one of the main points is like, Hey folks, was it the defense today? Like, I don't know. Both teams played no defense, but they put on one heck of a show because of playmaking quarterbacks with big giant arms who can run and throw and do crazy stuff. Cause that's what you need to do to win in the playoffs. I almost feel like I'm being rude by making that point right off the bat. Like I should have slid it in later to be like, I don't know if, uh, Kirk does that in 13 seconds or makes the touchdown pass that Allen did where things broke down. And then he finds Gabriel Davis in the end zone. But I mean, those two, that is like watching Elway versus Marino or, you know, Rogers versus breeze, or, you know, this is, that was like all time, great quarterback play, which is

funny because the rest of the weekend was not all time, great quarterback play, but even in the, and this is where we have to talk about too and we got questions for each other and everything else but i think we just gotta like let it all out so that that game was nuts i wonder if there will be something done with the overtime rules probably not because it's buffalo they won't care um but they only changed them the first time since it was far and they're like oh we can't do that to far or we have to try to make it right but for buffalo they probably won't uh the other game though i think we have to talk about the rams take because the rams take from the very beginning of the season has been the roller coasteriest opinion that i think i've had on a single team at the beginning of the year i thought

this looks very much like i've seen this story before where a team goes all in and then they were good. So I was like, oh, well, man, I guess that was wrong. I guess like Stafford's great for this team and they're good. And then he started Staffording all over the place. Three picks against the Vikings, just looking bad, throwing all sorts of interceptions, losing games. It's like, ah, yeah, there it comes.

And then today his team fumbles four times. There's nothing he could do about that and he comes up with the biggest throw at the biggest time just this monster laser beam pass and they beat the bucks and they should have beat them by even more the way that stafford played but they kept you know giving it away in many different ways and now here they are nfc championship and it's worked for the Rams. And so I'm thinking to myself kind of like, well, what, what happened here? Right. Or like, why is this the case when it had so many red flags for why it wouldn't work to just top heavy

your roster and throw on a quarterback who hadn't won a whole lot in Detroit. And I want your opinion on that, Paul, I want your opinion on why it was able to work for the Rams when we didn't see it work here with that same sort of strategy and Stafford never had it really work in Detroit before. I mean, why it worked, it worked because they have Sean McVay. It worked because they have Cooper Cup. It worked because they have Odell Beckham. It worked because they have Aaron Donald. It worked because they have Von Miller. Like that's why it worked. If we're comparing it to Minnesota, it's just at every spot, they had higher caliber talent.

They had better coaching than the Vikings had. So that's why it worked more than the Vikings for Stafford. Specifically why it worked. I think it's that talent too. I mean, he never, obviously he had Calvin Johnson, but he never had the stability of what the Rams can present uh the stability of even if my offense is going to fumble three times my center is going to snap it behind me like my defense is still going to get my back like that was never the case for him before that would never be the case in Minnesota at least presently constructed so that's those are the reasons why but I I have to eat the little

crow too because I was not a Stafford believer in terms of thinking he would take him past one round, maybe even after he goes lights out against Arizona. I did not think he was going to play like this today. I thought he was going to throw those one or two passes that are just horrible. And he I mean, he threw some questionable passes. One of the first drives, he almost threw it right to a defender in the end zone. So he had his moments, but in the biggest moments, he threw that past a cup and he, he was lights out. I mean, so you got to give credit where credit's due. And I don't think anything that he had shown really like indicated that he was going to do this today. Like I think today was one of those career defining moments for him, at least, especially if then they go on to make it to the Superbowl,

just if they make it there. Like, I think it's fine saying we didn't see this in Stafford in him before this game. Cause I'm not sure he did. And it, he, he made it happen today.

So I don't necessarily think we're wrong. I just think we saw a player really take and elevate a big step and he had the requisite pieces around him in order to be able to do that, which just weren't possible any other time in his career. And also at the beginning of the year, you mentioned two guys that just weren't on the team, Odell Beckham and Vaughn Miller. Vaughn Miller committed multiple homicides and will be arrested after the game. Like he, he was just demolishing them to go along with Aaron Donald and the pressure numbers together. I think they had 16 pressures together, which is outrageous against Tom Brady, who doesn't get pressured all

that much. He usually gets rid of the ball so quickly, but they had, they had a backup right tackle in a couple other offensive linemen are dinged up. Ryan Jensen's playing after getting hurt last week and Tristan Wirfs is out. And the poor guy playing right tackle is just getting run over like Mike Remmers style, just getting annihilated, which is kind of a point, by the way, about an offensive line where it's really about your weakest link, because the other team will then line up Aaron Donald over your worst player and just, or Vaughn Miller and just run that man into the ground. So that's a key. Or Leonard Floyd, why not? Right. Leonard Floyd, right. Not a bum at all. A great player, Leonard Floyd. And so that was part

of it that the advantage of defensive line versus offensive line should not have been like this, but it was because of a key injury, which they took advantage of and deserve credit for that. So that's one thing that you really can't predict is when they actually play each other, what are the key matchups going to be? Also, if Robert Woods had gone down and they replaced him with Laquan Treadwell, it'd be a lot different than Odell Beckham in terms of the weapons. I think the other part of it was I knew Cooper Cup was good, but a guy with an arm like Stafford versus Jared Goff, there's just way more physical gifts there to maximize that talent that Cooper Cup has. He is truly a special wide receiver. I mean, I was thinking like this, this is like Jerry Rice

stuff here, like putting up numbers like this that are so much better than everybody else in the league. And Hey, Tampa Bay though, feel free to cover him in the most important moment of the game, which we'll get into. Don't go cover zero. And when we talk about the Todd Bowles thing, we'll get into that. Cause I don't know if that's real or if that's an agent telling somebody to tell somebody that Todd Bowles is a hot candidate, but I guess that's, that's for a little bit later discussion. But I think that one area where just in my brain, it doesn't quite always register is when there's volatile players with a lot of talent. So basketball players who can score 50 or score 10 on a given night usually don't really

gravitate to that type of player. And with Josh Allen early in his career, he was all over the place. Some games he's amazing. Some games he's terrible. And Stafford, I've covered, I don't know how many games of his, he got sacked 10 times in one. And then in another one, he let it come back just like Mahomes did in 2016 against the Vikings, where he made some ungodly throw to set them up for a long field goal. And so I've seen every part of Stafford. And my thought was he's too volatile. He's always all over the place, either great or terrible. And if terrible shows up, then you lose.

But in sort of Joe Flacco-ish type fashion, back-to-back great games from him and not a very good showing at all from Tampa Bay's defense. In fact, an embarrassing performance by their defense, just open receivers all over the place. And then he made the throws and he's got such great physical gifts that if he's feeling it, he's on fire. He's confident that can happen at any given time. He could throw those three picks or get sacked 10 times.

But if he's on, he can just completely light you up. And I think that that's part of it. The other part is too, I probably more than need to apologize to Stafford, need to apologize to McVay because I kind of had this feeling of like, oh, is this a typical coach thing, blaming the quarterback and like, okay,

maybe you lost a little bit of your fastball. Oh no, not based on what we've seen in these first two games of the playoffs from Los Angeles. McVay has still got it. In fact, he's the best of the best and Kyle Shanahan, but probably McVay is even a cut above just incredible at playing to his players strengths and not afraid to throw it to their best player all the time. But to scheme that up and the way that they scheme their passing concepts to find open

receivers all the time, you combine that with, hey, Matt Stafford, make two special plays a game and we win. And that's what you have. You have a trip to the NFC championship. Yeah. And I mean, would people be surprised if Stafford next week comes and throws two picks and they lose? No. But I think what the last two weeks have done is you now at least need to give him the benefit of the doubt. Where 50-50, if you were thinking that could happen, it's tilting more towards 60-40, 70-30. Like you are now – I'm expecting this more than I'm expecting a debilitating – several debilitating throws in a game.

Just the way that he's played, I think he's earned that in these last two games and the two biggest games of his career, arguably, and he's gone out and done that. It doesn't mean he's not going to be volatile the next two weeks. He hasn't solved this thing. Like I mentioned, he still had a few passes in that game that could have gotten intercepted, and then things change. I don't know who is really at fault for that snap that went over his head, but that could easily be a Stafford miscue.

So there are still things that might not be cleaned up. But I think at this point, he at least has gained the benefit of the doubt. If he's going to play better, then he's going to play worse. And I'm excited to see what he does against another volatile QB next week. And then if you get to the Super Bowl, anything can happen. And, I mean, if that happens, his entire legacy changes. And we're talking about maybe a Hall of Famer with all the stats that he's accrued at this point, like, and then led two wide receivers to the best two seasons ever in Calvin Johnson and Cooper Cup,

like that's some bona fides. So this is really a really, really big postseason for Stafford. And I'm not sure I envisioned it going this way at all. Well, I didn't either. I also didn't envision Tampa Bay just melting in so many different ways early in that game. I mean, the refs didn't help Tom Brady getting a penalty there. You can blame him. You can blame the refs, but either way they had three 15 yard penalties go against them. They missed a field goal. They made bad game management decisions, not going for fourth downs when they should have, they were down, I down i think 10 nothing and they had fourth and four at the 40 or something like that and they were like no let's kick a field goal a long field goal it's like i don't think you want to do that here because your defense isn't stopping anyone right now and then just snap of the fingers

all of a sudden it's whatever it was 24 to 3 three or whatever, 20 to three in the first half there. And it could have been even worse the way they were playing. So they weren't catching the ball. They had a couple of drops mixed in. They weren't blocking it. Like everything was going wrong for Tampa Bay, which is another thing about the post season and wins and everything else. And we'll talk about Rogers here in a second. But even for them, like they're winning that game late and it's a punt block like what you know i mean i love the randomness of it but it almost feels like this weekend was a little bit like hockey where sometimes your team can win the stanley cup and you'd be like did we even deserve that i don't even know like like how did we our goaltender stopped 98 of the shots which would never happen for a long period, but it did today.

So Stafford, by the way, in the regular season had the fifth most turnover worthy plays in the NFL. So the volatility was absolutely there and that's who he is. But I think that there's just, he also had the fifth most big time throws. So like it's classic Stafford stuff. I just think that that's what happens sometimes. Like Flacco is the great example. It hasn't happened in a while. I don't think, but where somebody gets hot in the playoffs, that was an Eli Manning thing. He was a little of the same way. Lots of big time throws. He didn't have as many turnover worthy plays didn't take as many sacks. So I think he was better, but you know, the same sort of thing of a quarterback gets hot with a great team and this

Rams team, they've stayed healthy. And that's a thing that's so huge too. They're healthy. They lost Andrew Whitworth, but their backup tackle is apparently good also. And Tampa Bay couldn't create a lot of pressure. They get Cam Akers back. He fumbles in a key moment, but at least like they had that weapon there. And then you just have Cooper cup wide open all over the place and he's making the plays. But I think that what you said is right, that what will shine through sometimes, and we saw this with Garoppolo in a final drive. We saw this with Joe Burrow in a final drive. And then with Patrick Mahomes and Josh Allen,

both leading final drives is it's usually the one thing that they have. Like Josh Allen, both leading final drives, is it's usually the one thing that they have. Like Josh Allen, his ability to run around and make plays. Patrick Mahomes with his just like ice cold veins where the guy never gets shook and comes through at the very end. And then, you know, you have Jimmy Garoppolo comes through with a game-winning drive. He gets rid of the ball quickly.

They're beating up his offensive line. They're getting pressure. Tom Compton's getting killed on the right tackle, but his release is quick, and he finds a way to get the ball out a couple of times and make plays. And then Joe Burrow and his accuracy down the field and his toughness and his leadership, that all comes through. And I guess I don't want to spend the whole time

comparing these teams to the Vikings because the Vikings are just not a team that is going to be playing here next year, probably. And that has been nowhere near this round in two years. But if you're watching the quarterbacks, it's really hard to say like your quarterback looks like these guys. He doesn't, he just doesn't like, he just can't do the things that they could do, which is one of the reasons why you are where you are. Yes. The defense was also bad. I agree. So let's talk about Rogers. We've kind of thrown the questions that we had to the wind because things were so crazy, but I'm getting to the things that I wanted to talk about. He's not playing for them next year,

right? Like this is over. I think the ride is over. I think if they had gone to the Superbowl, then maybe he comes back and tries to recreate it, tries to win two in a row, tries to get three Superbowls, which there's a very, very high echelon of people who have won three Superbowls. But I think this is done, Paul. I think, I mean, I don't want to give Vikings fans too much hope by saying this, but they are 50 million or something over the cap. His cap number is insane. They are going to lose the Darius Smith. They might lose Devante Adams to free agency. He's not signing for cheap. He's the best receiver in the NFL, not named Cooper cup. I don't see any. Well, okay. I think it's very, very improbable that Aaron Rogers is a green Bay Packer next year. Yeah. All season long, I've been on the team.

I'll believe it when I see it. In terms of that happening, we've just seen the Packers have insane quarterbacks for too long to expect that they're just going to get rid of Aaron Rodgers. But yeah, I mean, his comments afterwards wasn't exactly a vote of confidence for the team. He doesn't want to stick it out through a rebuild. He's going to wait and see like comments kind of being like yeah we should have done better um and by no means like did he do everything he could have done and this was on the rest of the team like that offense

scored seven points on the opening drive and then at three points the rest of the game that just can't happen at home with Aaron Rodgers as your quarterback like that is that is that is not what he's supposed to be doing on offense now they would have won though if the special teams doesn't just do what it did like so there there is that like the offense can't be to blame for all of this because if they just get a punt off like they should have this game is different they're moving on they're probably the favorites to make the super bowl so yeah it's hard but i i i think i agree i it's taken me a long time to get there but this felt like there was some finality to it and i don't know if they they're just not in a great spot to remake the roster i know everyone's

been saying like if you were crafting a team that fits Rodgers best, like he would want to go to Green Bay with the pieces around him. Maybe that was the case this last year with the defense that was good and LaFleur and Adams there. But if they're really going to have to cut costs,

I'm not sure how much that hurts their team. That being said, wherever he goes with trades is going to send four first round picks. So they're going to be depleted as well. But yeah, I'm just not sure you can run this back again after you lose twice in the conference championship.

Now you're losing in the divisional round. Like it just hasn't happened. And it's unfortunate for Packers fans, very fortunate for Vikings fans. But I think you're right. I think this was his last game. Like, I don't know how they put together a collection of players that's that good again

um they signed david boctieri to this crazy contract just because i mean he's good but he's rogers best buddy so they signed his contract he gets hurt right away and zadaria smith was hurt this year but zadaria smith comes back uh but his cap hit is 26 million dollars for next year that's got to change and if you're zadaria smith i mean you don't want to come back if Rodgers isn't back, but you're also not, even if Rodgers is back, you're not coming back at a discount. Like you're a pass rusher. You're, you know, it's not like Devante Adams where your worth is directly connected to your quarterback.

And then if Rodgers doesn't come back, Devante Adams doesn't either. And their roster starts to really collapse because they haven't been drafting spectacularly lately. They were kind of like the Rams where it's a lot of really good players who are keeping them up. And then Rogers trying to make the average players better. But I mean, after the top guys that they have, if Rogers, Zedary Smith, Preston Smith, and Devontae Adams all go, that is not a good football team. And then Jordan Love has to take over, not a good football team. And actually not all of their cap problems are completely solved. We have seen teams do this to themselves, to push all the chips to the middle of the table. And you end up like New Orleans that did not get

their Super Bowl out of it for doing it for Breeze. And look at New Orleans this year. They still had a good defense, but they couldn't fill out the receivers after Michael Thomas got hurt. They had to shuffle around a ton of money. They didn't have great depth, and they couldn't do much at the quarterback position outside of signing Trevor Simeon and Jameis Winston to hardly any money. They couldn't even be real players in that market for any other quarterback. That's kind of what I think is going to happen to the Packers is that Jordan Love's going to

take over if Rogers leaves and they're going to be with a pretty bare cupboard or a pretty average team. I think they have a good coach in Matt LaFleur, but they suddenly go from a team that you lock into 12 or 13 wins to one where you think uh seven or eight i mean even we have hardly any sample of seeing jordan love actually play football but i mean that's that's kind of where you would put it right now and then you know so now the nfc north all of a sudden looks kind of wild it almost looks like the nfc east did a few years ago where every everybody's not very good and here's my question for you though and this is going to be a bigger conversation i'm sure as we go throughout with the rogers drama but just your sort of snap reaction is would that change anything for you if you are coming in as the new vikings gm that it seems

highly likely aaron rogers is playing for i don't know vegas or denver or somebody like that yeah well just quickly on the Rogers thing. If you are making the case for him to come back, it's you want to go into that conference, the one, the game we just watched, you want to go play with Mahomes and Allen. You want to go play for Denver and have to battle them. You want to go to Vegas and battle them. You want to battle those guys. You want to battle Herbert. You want to battle battle burrow, like probably not. So that's the case. If he wants to stay stay maybe the roster falls down uh but the rest of the competition like it's there going on to the vikings point yeah it changes things if

rogers isn't there the division is wide open uh do you trust the lions to get back to competency i don't do you trust the bears to become good with their management right now and ownership i i don't i mean they have justin field so you have a building block, but that's it. And if Rodgers is gone, like you like Matt LaFleur as a coach, great. But as we just said, the talent is going to be depleted, and you're relying on a rookie quarterback in Jordan Love that people didn't really like coming out. He kind of forced his way into the first round, and who knows?

Maybe he's good but early sample is he's not that great um so yeah that changes how you look and maybe that changes if you're getting rid of kirk i don't know but in terms of just the how attractive the job is if rogers is gone suddenly the nfc north is wide open uh the rest of the the rest of the conference is so so especially if you compare it to the afc uh brady's not going to be doing this forever i think we're starting starting to finally get there and so yeah i think you look at the nfc and you look at the vikings and you see they should be the favorites in the nfc north and then when you get to the playoffs who knows there are not that many teams you have to contend with, uh, compared to the AFC. So it has to, it has to look more

attractive if Rogers isn't going to be there. Folks, we've got an even better offer to tell you about from soda stick. If you use the promo code purple insider, one word, you can get 15% off your purchase. That's right. At soda stick.com your place for minnesota sports inspired apparel you can get 15 off just by using the code purple insider i've told you about all the great football designs but they've added a few more including the axe is back for minnesota football fans you can get that on a shirt on a hat and also randy moss is the goat the purple people eaters bud grant designs for the old school fan. Plus the hockey and basketball teams are both actually exciting this year.

And SodaStick has you covered there as well. Go to SodaStick.com. That is S-O-T-A-S-T-I-C-K.com. And use the code Purple Insider for 15% off. I think that it does and you'd probably know that if you are ryan poles who appears that he's going to be the next general manager um of the vikings we'll see how that plays out this week he's got another conversation with chicago there seems to be something i don't want to say like exactly too much to mislead anybody, but it seems like the it's trending toward the Ryan poles direction is what I could say.

But I want to, I think that you knew that there was only so much Rogers left anyway. There was only either like one more year, maybe two, but that's probably it. If you're taking over the job, you're planning on having it for a long time, but it shouldn't accelerate your plan.

I think if you're the general manager, just because you could be better than the other teams in your division does not mean that you could compete for a Superbowl with the present situation. The present situation being you have no defense to work with. You have Eric Hendricks, Harrison Smith, and that's all I can think of that you have because like Daniel Hunter is going to be a tough decision. I just wrote about that today. That's going to be a tough call for them. And then what Delvin Tomlinson, like this is your defense right now. It needs a lot of work. And not only that, the offensive line needs several positions. I think after watching some of these teams today, you can use a couple other uh role players on offense maybe another wide receiver to go in

there some of these teams decided that they like don't mind having depth at the wide receiver position like there's a lot to do there's a quarterback decision i would not look at this and say because of this keep kirk cousins for a year draft a guy let that play out i think it's possible that they will look at it that way. I just wouldn't like your goal is not to win the division at nine and eight. Your goal is to win the Superbowl, which means you have to have a team as good as the Rams, as good as the Bucks, as, as good as San Francisco from player two to 53, that San Francisco team is incredible. And with Jimmy Garoppolo, he fits in really well with that team, but their

roster is just spectacular. And from position to position, they got stars all over the field and a great coach. That's what you're competing for. You're competing to be on the same field with those guys, not to run out there next year with the 25th best defense and win nine games and be like, yay, we won the division. Let's extend cousins or something like that's not what you want. You want to be trending toward being a Superbowl contender. There's young offensive pieces in place to start going that way. But I don't know. One of the hardest things to figure out, and this connects to the Tampa Bay game is the report comes out that the Vikings are very interested in Todd Bowles and he's getting a

second interview. Again, some of this stuff, you never know exactly whose agent is telling who to say what. However, if they're doing a second interview, they're serious. That would say to me, Paul, that our understanding of things that the Wilfs know and see the universe that they see from New Jersey is very different from what we see, which I think became very clear that they didn't know a lot of stuff that was going on in the building was going on in the building. They should listen to the show. But I mean, really, like wouldn't they be more dialed in if they just listened to us talk about them all the time? I don't know why that doesn't happen.

But it's not our dot sub stack or justack or just i mean anybody not just us i mean like there's other uh you know like ben gesling and andrew kramer and you know whatever like there's other people who cover this team but like are you reading some of the quotes from your head coach like are you looking at the drafts are you like what if you know how did you end up on the last day deciding to fire rick spielman how does that happen considering where the franchise had gotten to you waited until you were getting booed off the field to start asking questions you didn't talk to the players until after it was basically already over and then you met with the leadership that didn't happen before so if they want someone like todd bowles to be their culture changer, I just don't think

they're seeing the world through the same eyes as we are basically. Yeah. I, my Todd Bowles breakdown is it's, it's, I'm just not too hot on him. And it's, it's for several reasons. One, one thing that points me in the direction of maybe there's a little bit more smoke than just agents talking. Bowles was a finalist when Zimmer was hired. That was when he was right in. Um, he was one of the top three finalists, I think Zimmer Bowles, and I forget the third. So it, it makes a lot of sense that, you know, eight years later, they're coming back to a guy that they liked in the first place and maybe polls. If he is the guy changes all that, I'm not sure how much discussion they would have had. if they feel like he's the guy, if they have already kind of been like, all right, we're going to start setting up second interviews with people who knows how much

input he's had on that, if any. Um, so who knows if they are connected, uh, it might just be, we liked Bowles the first time we're talking to him again today, cause he's been on the bucks, he's done well. And so we like him again, but again but yeah it's not someone at least from my perspective I would go after if they're going for a defensive minded guy I think Raheem Morris would be a better option after what we've seen from D'Amico Ryans I think that would be a better option and it's hard with Bulls because you don't know how much in his first stint was the J jets and how much was him like where do you assess blame what i do know is they were better than they were better when he got there than when they left i know they had three offensive coordinators in four years uh if you're gonna bring in a defensive

head coach uh the one thing that needs to happen is there needs to be a plan in place for the offense you need to have, this is who my coordinator is. This is my quarterback coach. We are committed to this. We are committed to this type of offense. Three offensive coordinators in four years in your first stint shows, I don't know if you're committing to that. I don't know what that looks like, but that would have to change if you're going with Bulls or any defensive-minded head coach. So for me, yeah, I'm not sure after what we just saw, especially when you're throwing a cover zero look when you just can't let up a touchdown and you're blitzing Stafford, who's

been one of the best quarterbacks against the blitz, and you blitz him on that final play. I'm not sure that's the guy you want, but again, we may be overreacting to one play, but even before this week, he was not the person that I was considering. So yeah, I don't know what your perspective is on him, but that's kind of where I'm at. I'm just underwhelmed by it. He seems like a great guy. He's been a great defensive coordinator twice for Arians both times. So he's obviously got some chops there, but it seems like that would be a very uninspiring hire. The last play is, uh, I think an extreme blunder by him, especially considering who's playing

quarterback, who's playing wide receiver. And then there was some miscommunication about who was supposed to blitz, which you're at home. Like that should not ever happen. Um, and maybe, I guess it's a little noisier when you're at home, but that should never happen that there's a miscommunication in the biggest moment. But not only that, I mean, why would you ever run a play that would allow Antoine Winfield Jr. is a great player, but he's not a guy who's going to track the best receiver in the league down the field 40 yards.

That's really unfair to ask of him. He's a safety and you wouldn't ask any safety to do that one-on-one. That is a tremendously bad decision. I wouldn't judge his entire candidacy, just like we talked about with Kellen Moore, where I did feel a little bit like after looking at the entire game plan, and that's where I might say after looking at the entire game plan, but Bulls also had a great game plan against Patrick Mahomes last year and won the Super Bowl. It's not his defensive acumen that I would be concerned about. I mean, he's been a good defensive mind in what, four different places now. I think very similar to Zimmer that he knows exactly what he's doing defensively and made a bad call at the end of the game that cost them. But they shouldn't have been in that game anyway. I mean, the Rams just tried to give it back in so many different ways. I think it's more about like, when you think of

how can we update ourselves to being a cutting edge, progressive type of team that looks at the Ravens and John Harbaugh's decision-making and says, want to be like that. I want to be the team that understands every single game management decision, how to use timeouts, how to use fourth downs. I follow a few jets people, a few jets writers and things like that. And I recall that it was very similar to Zimmer. It was the same sort of, Oh, you're punting on fourth and two at this part of the field and things like that. Like that doesn't make someone a great or terrible coach necessarily, but everybody in the league is getting this. Does your guy get it?

And you bring up a good point about the offensive coordinator thing. We've got Shanahan and McVay. Matt LaFleur was there. One of the things, Andy Reed, here's Andy Reed again. And Buffalo has had Brian Dayball there the whole time. I don't know if he'll stay there after this, but he's been there with Josh Allen the whole time. If they are planning, and this is like, can we get in the Wilfs heads? We really can't. If they are planning to draft a quarterback, you want an offensive head coach to build with that quarterback or someone that has no aspirations of being a head coach.

Who's your offensive coordinator or no chance which apparently you know i guess we'll see if if they do hire ryan poles and he wants to bring in eric b enemy but i don't i mean he's been there a long time that sort of continuity though where if your offensive coordinator doug peterson once upon a time gets a job you don't have to change anything you just have someone else on the staff become the oc and you keep running the same offense and and you can do those things with your quarterback. I think that's preferable. And I think that like the Kyle Shanahan, Jimmy Garoppolo relationship, I think is really

emblematic of this. That Garoppolo, I think is a very good quarterback with one great skill is that he gets rid of that ball super fast. It comes out. And also he's got guts to make big throws. But he's not unbelievable. He's not like what we saw from Patrick Mahomes today. He knows that offense so well.

You don't see confusion. You don't see him looking to the wrong places or getting the wrong protections or anything. They've been together for a long time. I think that's important. The same thing with Mahomes. The biggest moments come up. Mahomes knows exactly what they're doing and has a say in that offense and has a relationship. Like, I think that that's kind of important and you just don't

see Bowles as that guy. However, if the Wilfs look at Todd Bowles and say, you know what our real problem was the defense, it wasn't cousins. It was the defense. Then't cousins it was the defense then you're gonna get todd bowles probably i mean maybe d'amico ryan is another guy from san francisco who i think would be a little more on the modern side especially having worked with um kyle shanahan or raheem morris having worked with sean mcveigh and shanahan in atlanta maybe you're talking about a guy who's more of a complete head coach if it's raheem morris because he's done both sides of the ball. But I mean, I don't want to completely obsess over this with Bulls, but it just seems like antithetical to what you'd be trying to do. In this case, you do need to go the opposite direction of the previous people that you had.

And this would look like they weren't hiring a scout guy, which is fine. I see people criticizing that on the internet and laugh hysterically at anybody who thinks that they know what Ryan Poles is going to do. You just found out who he is the other day. You don't know what he's going to do as the general manager. You don't know what he believes. You don't know how he values players. You don't know who he's going to trade, how he's going to handle this thing. And you don't know whether he'd be better or not than the scouting guy from Cleveland.

You are, I'm sorry, the analytical guy from Cleveland. You have no idea. So anybody who you follow on the internet who has an opinion on this, stop following them. They don't know what they're talking about. That's a side rant. But anyway, I just, I think that going with someone with a scouting background and a defensive head coach would just look like, Oh, we want the same thing,

but just nicer people. That's how it would come across. Yeah. We want continuity, but we don't, we, we, yeah, we want continuity. We, we just didn't like Zimmer and we didn't like, like his attitude and we didn't want him in the building anymore. So we hadn't got another defensive guy. Cause that's our issue. And we got another scout cause you know, Spielman was here for a long time and he drafted some good players, but you know, he just couldn't get along with Mike. We just didn't have that continuity. So now let's get a scout, let's get a defensive guy and they're going to be in sync. That's, that's what we need.

That's what got us in 2017 to an NFC championship game. Like if that's the way we're thinking, it's not a good spot to be in. Um, I will say we, you know, we don't know if goals is the guy, like you said, it could have just been agent talk. This might not have the, he might not be the coach. Um, who knows? Uh, it looks like polls is the GM, but you never know. Maybe that's not the combo either. So there's a lot left to be said, but yeah, just after, after, after you think about it,

it just, it, it seems too similar and it seems like we're just going to run back with the same mistakes that we've already had. And I don't think anyone wants that really. I don't think anyone does. And this is where I always think it's very difficult to take the final four teams or something and say, well, look at the final four teams. Cause the four who lost lost on field goals. So, I mean, you know, don't, don't build like Tennessee. Cause your guy will throw the pick at the very end. I don't know. I mean, it's, that's hard to say, but I do think that what we're looking at here is as usual, top passing offenses that even San Francisco, that's known as a little more of a running team.

They were ahead of the Vikings this year and passing expected points added. That's what their quarterback missing. I think two games injured Jimmy Garoppolo and then playing other games hurt. He's still clearly hurt right now. And they had by expected points added a top 10 passing offense. The Rams, I think we're number two behind Tampa Bay. So whoever won that one was going to be right there. Kansas city. I don't have it memorized but of course like Kansas City they were in the top five like the teams that get deep in the playoffs every year as random and crazy as these games can be are always the top passing offenses it's not Indianapolis who ran the ball all the time and tried to play you know game manager with Carson Wentz it's not Indianapolis who ran the ball all the time and tried to play, you know, game manager with Carson Wentz.

It's not usually Tennessee. Tennessee usually gets so far and then they get stuck. This is a little bit Baltimore too. Like Baltimore is a very, they use their quarterback with it, but it's Greg Roman. And it's this very run heavy type of offense that they probably need to change there too.

They fired their defensive coordinator. And I thought, I think you need to actually fire your offensive coordinator. But they're not ever one of the most efficient passing games in the league. And that's the question is how far can you go when you're in the middle?

And that's where the Vikings have been for the entire Cousins era. It's 10th, it's 10th, it's 17th. It's like that unexpected points added. You're just okay. You're not up there with the great teams and whether it's cousins or somebody else, you have to find a way to get there. You have to find a way to get to that level.

And, uh, I don't know any other way than hiring a coach that is going to push the ball to Justin Jefferson and is going to maximize everything you have through the passing game. And if it takes throwing the ball 700 times, then that's what you should be doing. Like, is, does that sound like Todd Bowles to you? It doesn't to me. Maybe he's going into these interviews saying, Hey, I've, I've found the light with Bruce Arians, no risk it, no biscuit, baby. But I don't know know i don't know if that's the case you i think there's something to be said for he failed hopefully he learned from that hopefully he sees some of the things he could have done differently hopefully he sees why tampa bay's

been successful and maybe that brings it here but a lot of a lot of times it's just you know you don't teach the old dog new tricks i mean mike m Mike McCarthy went to PFF and he still doesn't have that down. I think Minnesota fans thought Tom Thibodeau when he came in for the Timberwolves, oh, Tibbs had that so much time off. He's not going to run guys into the ground. He's not going to do that. He's going to have a different style. That didn't happen.

And so it just reinforces why I have always preferred an offensive coach for this job. If it's going to happen. And so it just reinforces why I have always preferred an offensive coach for this job. If it's going to happen. I mean, all the top offenses that you talk about have an offensive head coach, except maybe the bills, but then they have the just Brian Dable has been the OC. And that is not something that normally happens. If you're an OC for a top team like this for multiple years, usually you're gone like that saying, well, we're going to operate like the bills and we're just going to have an OC that's really good. And he's going to stay that, that doesn't happen. That really doesn't happen. That is an anomaly. And so then you look at all the other teams in the playoffs and all the other top passing teams, they're pretty much all offensive minded guys. And so I think that is generally where I have to, where they have to go

again, that is not a blanket statement if a defensive guy blows you out of the water that that might be where you have to go but if you're trying to make this sustainable with a young quarterback or kirk you have to have some continuity on that offensive side and bowls did not show that in new york and just history tells us defensive coaches don't do that like the best defensive coach last year that was hired, Brandon Staley, they're already opining for the offensive coordinator to get run out of town. Like he has by all means been a slam dunk hire by everyone that you talk to, but they're still going to replace offensive coordinator because they struggled in the middle of the year.

And that's what kept them from the playoffs. Like there just seems to be a ceiling. If you can't continue to sustain some sort of offensive cohesion with a defensive coach. And it's just really, really hard to do that. And the numbers are stacked against you a little bit. And so then you couple that with a guy who's already failed on the defensive side. And that's where natural questions come up. Now, if Bowles gets hired, could a lot of things change? And will we look at those things? Yeah. And he might be a great hire. You don't know know but if you're just trying to play the odds game the odds look worse than they do you know look looking better i i agree i agree and there was a report out there that the vikings want their mike

tomlin so that just means in i mean i'm not trying to put words in their mouth here, but does that mean hiring a defensive minded, nice person? Like, I mean, I don't think of Mike Tomlin as being a super nice guy. I think of Mike Tomlin is like master and commander guy. Like he is just in control of that entire franchise and everybody knows it. that's that's the guy and he runs a tight ship but he's not a you know abusive doesn't create a toxic culture is an ego maniacal like some of these coaches like joe judge like he's a very well adjusted in control type of leader that players seem to want to follow uh and okay that's great i think that's pretty rare to be able to find somebody who's that good at it but i think if you're like hey what's like him like i think that that's it's almost as silly

as saying the next mcveigh like let's just find the next big bay like okay i don't know if those guys are necessarily out there or just because someone is youngish and energetic doesn't mean they're the next mcveigh this. This is why it is so incredibly hard. And that's why I don't mean to spend so much time on it. But when someone gets a second interview, you go, okay, what is going on there? It could be the case that Ryan Poles, if he becomes the GM, as we expect, then he might already know who he wants. And it might be the last guy they interview. And they might be just trying to do a favor to pump up Todd Bowles value so he gets a job somewhere else there are favors like that that get done all the time so I don't want to have everyone freak out and be like oh

no they're gonna blow this higher and then they bring in Eric Biennium the next day or something so we'll we'll see I don't know what direction they're going to go with that um I want I have a question that I definitely wanted to ask you before I get to who's going to go with that. I want, I have a question that I definitely wanted to ask you before I get to who's going to go to the Superbowl. Do you know what a Rorschach test is? Do you know what that is? Not off the top of my head. I've heard of it. Okay. I'm going to show you, can you see it on my phone? Maybe you can't see it on my phone. It's the ink blot thing. It's yeah. I don't even know if I'm pronouncing it right. But someone, I couldn't think of what it was called and someone emailed it to me when I brought it up. I don't know, months ago. It's yeah. I don't even know if I'm pronouncing it right. But someone, I couldn't think of what it was called. And someone emailed it to me when I brought it up. I don't know, months ago,

it's where they show you an inkblot and you look at it and you tell people what you see. So there's the famous one that kind of looks like a bat or a bird sitting on a tree, but I don't know what that says about me. Anyway, do you look at the Los Angeles Rams and say, that's why you take your limited quarterback who you had to work around and try to get somebody with a stronger arm. Or do you look at it and say, I don't know, Kirk was kind of a lot like Stafford and I guess he can do it. This is not a leading question. This is a Rorschach test. I see the, the Vikings don't have the best player in the NFL, Aaron Donald. They don't have maybe the best wide receiver in Cooper cup. That's what I see. And so I see that not being, I don't see them as being even, I don't see Kirk being able to do something similar.

And I think all you have to look at is the game. We just spent the first 20 minutes of the show talking about, um, you're, you're, you're not going to find your Mahomes or Allen in all likelihood. Those guys are generational. And I'm not saying you have to search for quarterbacks until you get there. You can't. Anything less and you need to just punt on him no matter how good he is. That is not the case, but it's just that is so much more sustainable than anything else.

That's so much more sustainable than what the 49ers are doing with Garoppolo, what the Rams are even doing with Stafford. But that team is just so much more talented. And they got there by taking a generational pass rusher and or just generational defensive lineman, the best player in the NFL, basically. And then taking a wide receiver like in the fourth round, who's

turning into Jerry Rice in Cooper Cup like that is what it's getting there and then they're doubling down by signing Odell Beckham trading for Von Miller and like filling out the roster in other good ways with Andrew Whitworth even though he didn't play today you've got there's just so much talent on that team so no I don't think you can look at this Vikings team and see a similar fate like you do with the Rams. Maybe you see it a little bit more with the 49ers, if anything, but I don't even think it's there either, just with the talent that they have on that roster. But no, my short answer, which was kind of leading, by the way. But no, I don't see Kirk Cous cousins in that bat. I don't see that. Okay.

So I think what I see is one of those pictures where if you look at it one way, you can see like an old woman pushing a shopping cart. And if you look at it the other way, you see a train or however that works. You know those right where you can see both. I don't know if you're like that, but if I about maybe this works for everybody if i think about one or the other if i know what they're both supposed to look like then i can see them um but anyhow that's how i do this that's how i view this is so the answer might actually be like you laid out if you have this level of a roster which will only exist for one year by the way this thing

is coming apart after this with los angeles so if you can do that for one year with this level and have the best offensive coach in the game yeah which is which is what you did not have in 2018 you may have a shot at this maybe uh with kirkousins I think you would maybe to be there at NFC Championship that's what they had in 2017 they had the number one defense two elite wide receivers great coaching from Pat Shermer great coaching from Mike Zimmer and they got to the end and luck as the Rams got lots of luck today uh but um then you can maybe get there to the NFC championship game with cousins. But I also see when you have that level of physical talent, it just gives you a better shot at it. And as much as he can throw a nice ball,

what you see from some of these other quarterbacks is just this arm strength and off balance throws. I mean, Mahomes threw one sidearm underneath submarine today, but Stafford has been doing stuff like that for a long time. He does that stuff too, where it's just like off balance or has to fire it into a tight window and whatever. I think that that's just necessary to be here to have that type of skill. So I kind of see both of these things. And if you're telling me, can you build a roster like this with that? The Rams have within the next two or three years with a very expensive contract. The answer is no, I don't think that's really possible unless you just locked out and hit

a bunch of draft picks. And then maybe you would have a chance, but everything is about the odds. So if you're saying, well, this is all we need to do. Well, is that better odds than drafting a guy high and having him work out and then just ending up in this weekend because you were able to build the money or build the team with the money? So I tend to kind of look at it in a lot of different ways. But I think I see you really need the gifts in order to be a championship weekend.

Most of the time, sometimes, sometimes Blake Bortles gets there, but right. But most of the time, that's not the case. So who do you think will be playing in the Superbowl, Paul? I think it will be the Chiefs and the Rams. That is my pick at this moment. That's probably chalk based on Vegas odds, I would guess. I think we, to be honest, I think we just watched the Super Bowl. Even if Kansas City loses one of the next two weeks, that was the best game. Those were the two best teams, I think, this year. So Kansas City very well may lose a game, but I think it's the chiefs that win this whole thing just based on what

we've seen. And maybe I would have felt differently if the Packers looked really good and kept going through or something like that. But I just don't see Patrick Mahomes has never lost to anyone other than Tom, Tom Brady in the playoffs. And I just don't see a different outcome. They were just at the end of the game when they needed points, they were just able to will anything that they needed.

We need to go 40 yards in eight seconds. We'll do that. We need Tyree kill to catch a 70 yard pass that he's going to run. And then like put the peace sign up with 20, 20 yards to go and just run it straight in. Like that's what we'll do. And until we see something else, they have to be the de facto

favorite and then on the nfc i don't know stafford kind of won me over a little bit today with how he played and i don't think you get four fumbles again and it would be a little bit of an upset because the 49ers have won like the last six times that they've played the rams or something crazy like that but i don't know i'm starting to believe a little bit in the stafford thing which is right when it comes back and comes back to bite me but for me it's Kansas City winning over the Rams where is it for you I think that that's my answer as well the only thing that holds me up is that San Francisco I think their defense won't make some of the same mistakes that Tampa does and I also thought about Stafford had a great day.

I'm not trying to take away from it. And the first drive, he threw it right to a Tampa Bay player. They almost were so shocked that the ball came their way, that it went right through their hands. And you just wonder, like Stafford has this confidence thing where sometimes he just kind of wavers. Jimmy would do it too, though. They might do like, we saw the Pat Mahomes-Allen thing.

There just might be, like, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, like, back and forth. Like, we're going, what is going on? Because they're magnetizing to defenders. So that could happen. Yeah, but I think that Jimmy playing beat up is probably the X factor here. And with that defensive line, i mean the the right tackle

position is extremely extremely weak for san francisco and they're going to do the same thing here's von miller in your face over and over and over again i think that's true and i just joe burrow is a marvelous quarterback but his team is probably a year away from building up enough talent to compete with um talk about a bad offensive line yes right exactly drew some new stuff right there oh yeah oh super bad like they don't even know who to block and joe burrow just has to make plays and i don't think their offensive coordinator helps a lot or their head coach zach taylor so but i think it's going to be a fun championship weekend maybe not as fun as this which was as insane of a weekend that has ever existed in football.

So appreciate everybody listening. And also everybody who listened to the Vikings decision, 2022 football Bonanza, the three episodes, if you haven't listened to them, they're still very much relevant because I thought as I was recording them, oh, they're going to name a general manager. That's exactly what's going to happen when I do three episodes for the weekend. But I had a former director of player personnel on to explain what that job is and give insight on how to scout quarterbacks. That was super cool. And Jeremiah was on Derek class and to talk about Kirk Cousins future in the draft. I mean, just a lot of good stuff. So Paul, always appreciate you

popping on here late at night after these games games especially since both of us were in a state of shock right after that happened 13 seconds buffalo i am sorry i am sorry that is brutal that is that's not a wild card miss field goal folks that is you are 13 seconds away from your second straight afc championship and you're playing the bangles just change you went ahead and at home time. Change them. Why are we doing this? The Bills would have been at home, right? Yep.

Bills would have been at home. Oh, my God. AFC Championship, the flaming tables that would have been broken. It would have been nuts. So thanks, everybody, for listening. We've also shown just the podcast has grown by a lot of listeners recently, probably because people actually feel excited about what's next. So this week could be really, really exciting with a new GM, potentially even a new head coach

before championship weekend. So lots to come, man, lots to come. So thanks, Paul. And thank you all for listening. We will catch you next time.