Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - REACTION: JJ McCarthy OUT vs. Detroit

Episode Date: December 24, 2025

Matthew Coller is joined by Andrew Krammer of the Star Tribune to discuss JJ McCarthy officially being ruled out by the Vikings and what it means for his future, plus Colton Pouncey of The Athletic talks Lions. The Purple Insider podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. Also, check out our sponsor HIMS at https://hims.com/purpleinsider Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider, presented by Fandul. Matthew Collar here, along with Andrew Kramer of the Star Tribune. Normally, what we do here is our hardcore breakdown, and we'll definitely get to that, but it will be with a different quarterback than we might have expected. J.J. McCarthy is out with a hairline fracture in his hand, meaning Max Brosmer will start against the Detroit Lions. We will get into what this means for Max and the opportunity he has to bounce back. But of course, Andrew, we have to begin with reacting to what I think we already had a pretty darn good sense for coming out of the Giants game when an injury looks like that.

When a guy can't grip the football, when he can't come back into the game, it's pretty unlikely that in three days his hand will just go whoop and I'm all set and I can play quarterback against the Detroit Lions. So McCarthy is out for this game. Kevin O'Connell left the door open for the possibility of him returning week 18 and said it depends on just whether he can grip the football or not, pretty straightforward there for J.J. McCarthy. But what does this mean for him missing another game? Now chalk it up to five for an ankle, another game for a concussion, and a half a game plus one, one and a half, and possibly two and a half due to a hand injury. Yeah, I believe this will be his 25th game of his career affected by injury in terms of

availability, 24th, obviously being last week when he left it before halftime. So 25 of 33 possible games he has not been able to play or been pulled out of in that one last week. It just means that more of the same in terms of lack of development time on the field. It has to be just incredibly frustrating for J.J. McCarthy, for the Vikings for Kevin O'Connell, who put so much time into developing and then changing the plan and altering it and then seeing results. And now here comes another injury. So this wasn't a moment like in Green Bay where he gets concussed and, you know, Aaron Jones even categorizes it as a good reset for him. He was playing well. And, and obviously there were some mistakes made in the first half against the Giants. But

this was an opportunity against Detroit, which we'll get into that could have been pretty forgiving for him. And it might be very forgiving for Max Rosmer. But Kevin O'Connell said this is going to be a matter of gripped strength for JJ. If he can come back. next week and show that he can grip and throw the football. They're going to give him a chance to go out there in week 18. All right. So in terms of the bigger picture, missing any snaps, missing five snaps in a game for a guy who has not yet thrown a thousand passes, I believe, since college or since his final year of college, that I think is pretty tough in terms of his progress. And I do believe, as you said, that he was making strides against Washington. We saw

with the, quote, simplified or dumbed down, as Aaron Jones said, game plan, but it seemed to work a lot better for J.J. McCarthy in terms of his comfort against the Dallas Cowboys. I thought that was the game that they won because their quarterback play was better than the other team's quarterback play, which was really maybe the first time that I've really thought that in one of his wins. Detroit was probably another one that was possible. But I thought even having a single game where he's in command, making big time throws, playing confident, on a national stage like it was against Dallas was a really good sign for him in terms of his confidence and his growth and the progress that he was able to make.

And then he comes out against the Giants, plays an up and down half, some things you like, some things you didn't like. And then it just has to stop again. I mean, I think that even if he comes back and plays week 18, that we just have to take what we have here and evaluate it. Because that game might not even mean anything. Like we're at the point where I think all of us treated the final five games as this sort of tryout in some ways or this show everybody. And if you, in part of your showing everybody, can't play those games, then you really have to just stop the evaluation right here with J.J. McCarthy and say this season was nowhere close to good enough even if there was little flickers.

Yeah, he needed to show more of those flickers that you're talking about because they came. a little bit in the first half against New York. You saw the 16-yarder to Jefferson, which was an under-center kind of play-action shot. You saw the 20-yarder to Addison in the first half in New York. Same deal, under-center. But those are few and far between. Those might have been the only two, if I'm remembering correctly, under-center completions that he had before leaving. Those are all critical.

Like, they're waving the white flag to an extent when they are bringing him out, bringing him out, excuse me, in shotgun as much as they are, just operating a quick layup, dink and dunk offense. That's just not what they want to do. Whoever the quarterback is for week one in 2006 is going to need to throw some in cuts, some deep dig routes, some catch and run opportunities that aren't four yards downfield, but are actually 15, 20 yards downfield, some layered footballs into secondary levels of the defense. We just have not seen McCarthy do that even very often in these good two and a half games from him. So to me, the flickers have just been so minimal that I don't know how much it would have meant.

he had finished the two and a half games out, if it would have been more of the same. I think you still would have gone in. The Vikings probably still would have gone into this offseason saying, you know what? We have a lot to think about at this position. They certainly do. And I'm curious what you think about just the way Kevin O'Connell laid out what happened for J.J. McCarthy's injury and what you think of the way that he's talked about McCarthy recently, because we're always kind of trying to pick up on these vibes, if you will.

we learned earlier this season that could be a dangerous word to use. But when it comes to the explanation, I thought it was very muddy that they couldn't really figure out when exactly this had happened for J.J. McCarthy. But then there was a line kind of layered in there about how if you get hurt, then you have to tell the training staff, which is now three times that he's been hurt and has not done that. And you could say, well, right, he's a competitor and everything else. But against Atlanta, maybe Carson Wentz comes in and wins the game.

because it was still very close. And then against Green Bay, you're talking about a serious injury, which is a concussion. Maybe it was later onset with that, but he certainly took some big hits there. And then this, another injury where it seemed to have happened before the play because he dropped the ball trying to dirt it when he couldn't, you know, contain the football in his hand. So there was a little bit of that. And of course, O'Connell said he was disappointed about, you know, what has happened here and McCarthy on his journey. and everything else. But I don't feel like the last couple of weeks of the way that O'Connell has talked about this has been defiant in any way toward the folks like us who have questioned J.J. McCarthy's

future as the starting quarterback. No, I do think since the pressure, since the playoffs went away as a possibility, I do think the pressure has kind of lightened a little bit. I don't think O'Connell has been as combative on those instances that you're talking about. But I wonder how much of that has to do with just what are you going to get out of pressing at this moment pressing got them to the point where McCarthy was airmailing all those throws in green bay and against baltimore and against chicago like pressing got them to not great spots and then finally you just it seems like the pressure has just kind of been let off this team this coach and realizing that look we're going to change the way we're coaching the offense we're just going to try and get production build confidence sprinkling

some of the elements that we want to do on offense actually and keep and go from there but I do think this is a difficult one in terms of him not reporting it, a pattern of him not reporting it because of that first year getting taken away by the knee injury, that sets the table for like, I need to be out there. Like I can't have, I can't let a hit to the head in Green Bay. I can't let this hairline fracture in my hand that, oh, is it okay? I think it is. And then he hands off on that, to start that drive seems like he's okay. And then as soon as he tries to grip it and throw the ball, he can't. And then Brian Burns, you know, that the strip sack happens. So This is a tough one for me to critique JJ and say, like, you got to, you got to take yourself out because you can understand the pressure he must be under and must be putting on himself, that the team, the franchise is to do everything right.

And, of course, if he thought that was going to happen, I'm sure he would not have gone back out there for that drive. If he thought I can't even grip and throw this football, because before every drive, they grip and throw football. So he must have been doing it on the sideline before going out there. That is a pattern that every quarterback goes through before every single drive, just a couple pitch and catch tosses. so he must have felt okay about it and then suddenly when he grips it like he does and throws everything a thousand miles an hour suddenly in the game he couldn't do it i can't blame a player for trying to play through an injury uh even though it is a part of it of reporting it to the medical staff because the point that o'connell made was well maybe we can help you when you have something

like that get back in the game we can potentially treat something you're dealing with now in this instance that would not be the case if you have a hairline fracture in your hand you're not going to just go, okay, well, tape it on up and run back out there. That's, that's probably not going to happen. But if he was throwing warm up passes and feeling that it wasn't right, it doesn't help your team, and this is maybe where he's going with this, doesn't help your team win a football game when you're going to drop the ball as soon as you try to throw it. But to your point, like, we can pick this apart a million different ways. I think it's much more 30,000 foot view of what this means for McCarthy and if you're saying well the guy cannot stay healthy the evidence

is all there to agree with that but for me it's not just well does this mean he's injury prone for the future i can't stand that type of language this is another bad luck type of thing if it was on the helmet where either he got sacked or whether he's jumping into the end zone or high-fiving which kevin o'connell i think sort of jokingly brought up uh whatever it was that caused the hairline fracture is as much as bad luck as someone falling on your ankle or a meniscus tearing or well the kind of caused his own running into the packers guy but you get my point like his playing style does lend itself to getting injured but i don't think that prone is maybe the right way to put it my issue is you can't get better if you don't play and this was the problem with tray lance

and this was the problem with anthony richards who i think we're both very talented quarterbacks who their organizations really liked, but they were not on the field and not practicing. So you're just not taking steps forward. And it seems like every single one of these is a hard reset. And my Googling of hairline fracture, not a doctor, but I think, you know, you could see pretty clearly it isn't something that just immediately zaps right back to 100%.

It takes time. Does this set him back sometime in the off season? I think has to be a little bit of a concern, even if it doesn't have a surgery involved. But he needed these two games to get better at football. And we get to the end of the season, and it's eight and a half games. And there's, I don't know, seven quarters of good football player. So I just don't know how you could confidently go forward with that because he did not make the progress that you expect.

It's almost going to be like another rookie year next year having missed all of this time. season. Yeah, the story of the 2025 Vikings is they don't have time for quarterback development. And that's going to be the story of the 2016, because they just put together a $300 million roster that couldn't produce a single pro bowler. And that's not just a quarterback issue, even though it is also a quarterback issue for them. And you're right, going into next year, regardless, like we said, even if he would have finished these two and a half games, even if he would have looked similar as he did the first two and half games against the NFC East, I don't know how much confidence that was going to give a very eyes wide open Kevin O'Connell and Vikings front office that no very much, he is not giving you what you

need or what you were scheming up or what you spent really three plus years shredding the league with Kirk Cousins to Sam Darnold, to even Nick Mullins, who gave, I think Jefferson delivered, helped deliver 150, 200-yard games for him against Detroit at the end of that 2023 season. So they've done this with, you know, mediocre to bad, to back up quarterbacks. McCarthy's not performing even at that level when they tried to run their system. And we just haven't seen him try to run their system from start to finish since his last bad game. They just ejected from that. And so, yeah, to your point, he needs to be available.

They don't have time for it. And that's why next off season, you know they're not going to be banking on him being healthy next year. They're just going to say, hey, if you are and if you can develop, great. If not, I'm sure they're going to line up options one, two, and three otherwise. This does feel like he did the thing that he did. he didn't do when Josh Dobbs was here, which is just kind of pare down the offense to get J.J. McCarthy to the point where they could win a couple of games because it is extremely important for Kevin O'Connell to get to seven or eight wins and not four because if they were

at four wins, then you're talking about extreme hot seats. Yeah, it's definitely purgatory when you get to seven. But it's also meaning you weren't that far away. It wasn't that horrible. And the fact that though they are going to walk out of this season, probably 31st or 30th and team quarterback rating. Like that's nowhere near the standard of Kevin O'Connell. And when we talk about how young JJ McCarthy is, you know the saying it gets late early, like you get old fast in the NFL and your rookie contract starts to run out fast. And this isn't a team that has forever to wait around to see if not only he's going to progress,

but if he can be healthy enough to play an entire season next year, because if he does have these issues in next year and you win seven games, well, if you go five years with no playoff wins and back-to-back seven wins seasons, I don't need to tell everybody how that's usually treated in the National Football League. Usually teams do not say, give it another try next year. I mean, it's not 1961. Like, that's not how this works anymore. And the pressure will be immense.

And I think that is regardless of whether he plays against Green Bay. Like even missing a game and a half here, when we do look, think about the percentages. If he misses a game and a half and plays, what, 10 total games, I guess that would be that's like missing 15% of a season like for what he could have played. You're just pairing down the evaluation to the point where you still don't really have a great sense for how far he can go. And I think he should be very happy with some of the things that he did, but then watch the league on a weekly basis and tell me that that's what quarterback play looks like around the league for the winning teams. It really doesn't. It doesn't look like having to just sort of run, run, play action, they kind of scheme up these things with Justin Jefferson where they have everyone block and they just, you know, sort of doink them the ball and things like that. Like that's not how Brock Purdy's play.

And I know these are experienced quarterbacks. But next year, he's going to be a third year quarterback, regardless of the injuries. That's just the reality. And at some point, you can't do that. You can't baby it through an entire year and expect to win, especially if Brian Flores isn't here. But I mean, who knows what's going to happen there? But you have to decide now, as Kevin O'Connell, do you believe that next year, he could stand under center on September, let's just say seventh for whatever debut team they're going to have

and run your full offense, the one that. that Sam Darnold won 14 games with. And if the belief is not there, you need to find someone else who you can believe it. Yeah, and I think his inability to feed Justin Jefferson, even against the worst defenses in football, has got to be one of the most concerning things. And I get it. Like you saw the numbers go up. If your box score watching, you're like, boy, why would you even nitpick this?

He's playing efficient football. But he could not. We saw it. We couldn't, he could not force the ball to Jefferson. He talked, I think it was the Cowboys game, the broadcast, Tariko or no, it would have been out of Mike, whoever it was. It was Tariko. Yeah, talked about how in the production meetings that McCarthy had said, they go,

there's so much pressure when I throw to Jefferson. And you could just see that was some of his most inaccurate passes continue to be whenever he threw to JJ. So you get into the first half of the Giants game. And like you mentioned, it was just layups. It was just those little, like it was so many drag and hook routes that one of the only incompletions to Jefferson was a drag route that the Giants linebacker just jumped because he knew this is all you guys are doing. So, yeah, if he's not throwing outbreaking routes, to the sideline.

It has to be these quick little things in front of him where the guy, the target is stopped. They're not moving and I don't have to try to hit anything in rhythm or in timing. And that is just not this offense. And, you know, just if this is time to talk about the bigger complete picture of JJ, you know, probably isn't because we don't know if he's going to play against Green Bay.

I suspect that it's going to be very difficult to do that, but it's still possible. So I don't want to say this is it. This is everything we know. But if we're almost there with that evaluation, I think that J.J. McCarthy has enough talent, enough athleticism, enough arm. We saw Dexter Lawrence is right, almost about to run him over. And he still gets enough juice on that football to get it to Jordan Addison, a ball that he should have caught for a highlight real touchdown. The big time throws with J.J. McCarthy are real, the downfield stuff because he has very real arm strength to make plays like that. And the scrambling, the running. That's very real for him for talent-wise. But it reminds me of some other quarterbacks who came along later, not ones that were instantly very, very good. And, you know, I guess the one that comes to mind for me is someone like Ryan Tannhill, who was a

great athlete and had a really, really strong arm, but was kind of flawed when it came to pocket presence, accuracy. And let's keep in mind, after three more sacks, J.J. McCarthy is among the highest sacked quarterbacks in the NFL per dropback, which is, which is, you know, is another huge issue. I mean, when you look at adjusted for Saxon interceptions, he is last. I mean, you just can't have that, like that many catastrophic errors. And there's a wide open throw in the Giants game to Jalen Naylor on an out route at the goal line where they play it, they switch. And that should be on time, bang, right to Naylor, easy touchdown front pylon over, don't even talk about it. He doesn't trust it, doesn't throw

it, then doesn't throw his checkdown, get sacked. Like these things still happening against the Giants is pretty tough, like to not make that progress. Tana Hill ended up going to the Tennessee Titans after a few years with a floundering Dolphins team. You had some moments there and then really got it. And it really clicked in. And I think this is the hardest part is that when you've watched this, you can absolutely see how this would work.

And he's still very young as a quarterback. But how does it work here is the thing that's getting harder and harder to figure out when you have another injury? Because if he had played these. last two games and played well, and you had five games of him making progress and playing well. I think you've got a good argument there. Like, okay. Like go forth everybody. Do the plan. Hope he turns a corner like a Bryce Young type of thing. But now we might not even get to see that. And how long is it going to take? How many games is it going to take? If he was in Tennessee,

this would be much easier, but he's not. Yeah. And so much of this is mental. And then I think that's why, right? You mentioned all the physical gifts that he's got, the physical things he can do well. But the reason why that non-touchdown or Addison that should have been caught was so impressive to me was that it was the fact that he got hit by Lawrence because there have been many times where he did not stand in the pocket. He fled because of pressure and he's not

giving his receivers chances because he wasn't throwing those kinds of passes. So that shows that experience can lead to growth, can lead to positive change for him. The question is can he put the negative experiences that he's had this year behind him in the same location that many quarterbacks before him, whether

it was Sam Darnold in New York or any number of quote-unquote busts, first-round picks that didn't pan out with their original team have had to go through. And we saw the resiliency of a Sam to go to so many locations and then finally thrive where he did, it might take that kind of thing from McCarthy because I do see a similar mental hiccup with him where with Sam, it was just so obviously mental. They're very different quarterbacks physically. It's why you're probably using Tannahill to compare him because they're more physically apt. But with Darnold, the mental comparison is huge because you're just seeing McCorm. Carthy look, not necessarily seeing ghosts all the time, but just looking like a mental mess to the point where the coach is saying, we're just going to forget about fundamentals, kid.

And frankly, pare down 10-word play calls and do all these changes that they've been making just to make the mental load easier on him. And that's why we don't know and can't say whether or not he's going to succeed here, because we don't know if he's going to all of a sudden have that switch just kind of flip for him in 2006 or 2007. And with the way this team burns through quarterbacks because of their injuries, we're going to probably see him again regardless of who starts next year. And that's another thing that has to be brought up too with the injuries is that this particular way of playing, the downfield passing attack leads to a ton of sacks, leads to a lot of hits on the quarterback.

We've seen that for all their quarterbacks. And, you know, it was a Kirk problem before that. But, you know, it was a little more extreme in 2022 when he was just getting broken ribs and smacked around. And then with Darnold, he played through an ankle problem. was some tape on his thumb that never got explained. There were lots of things that, lots of hits that he took that you thought, well,

as a product of this offense, you have to hang in and try to make those plays. Is he going to be able to hold up for next year? So, I mean, my take is on just what they should do into the off season with him missing another game and then the potential of this being completely over for him for this season is that you do need to give him the opportunity

because we've seen. other quarterbacks go into an off season after that first year, maybe doesn't go their way and work with a new quarterback coach and make progress fundamentally and then come back with a lot more experience, a lot more growth throwing the football. I mean, not experience playing in games and show what you can do. But the problem of the NFL today is there's no two a days and there's no real preseason. And you could say, well, he should have played more in the preseason. and I did advocate that at the time.

But have you seen those games? They're not the preseason games from 2006. Like where, I mean, Zim would be playing real games out there. Even when I started covering the team, he wanted to play real preseason. Didn't he win like 15 in a row or something? He wanted to play real preseason games. They would talk with the other team, show us this, do this to us. He would hide who was playing and who wasn't.

Right. Yes, right. And now it's just like, all right, who ain't going to be here. No one's played. Who wants to. to give their family their jersey for Christmas because you ain't going to be here. And then every once in a while, there's a Miles Price or an Elijah Williams. But aside from that, the real players are not getting real experience by playing in the preseason.

So you have to develop the heck out of yourself through an offseason. And then there's also the question about, you know, McCarthy seemed very pleased to have the end of conversation about his fundamentals. And so I guess I've wondered, like, does he think that, that needs to change. I don't know the answer to that. But like, does he think that he needs to change? Or does he think, thank goodness, O'Connell stopped badgering me about it so I can just go play the way I want to play?

I don't know the answer to that. But like, recognizing you have to change would be the first step toward getting somewhere. Yeah, and on that, no, JJ did say this would have been after the week of this was the topic. I can't remember after which game it was probably when he came back from the Green Bay game or after he missed the Seattle game. It probably would have been going into the Washington game when the whole fundamentals was the topic. O'Connell said, we're just not going to focus on that decision making is the whole thing. JJ did say, he said it's not like I'm completely ignoring the coaching points. It's just I'm picking and choosing which ones to bring with me into the game or, you know, in and out of whichever play.

So I think he was trying to say that and they're like, I'm not totally ignoring what they're telling me, but I am just going to not feel the pressure of like, I need to be perfect every single time. And I do think that's what we know about him. He talks about how much he's a perfectionist, how he wants to get everything really. right. He does talk about being a people pleaser in terms of wanting to listen to the coaches and do everything they want to do. That doesn't mean it's 100%. It doesn't mean

it's Kirk Cousins level, which was like, you tell me to jump, I will ask you to the centimeter how high I should be jumping. JJ, there might be a nuance level to that. Maybe there are some things he thinks are fine that he's played and gotten to this level. But he was also the most inexperienced quarterback in college among the first round selections in

2024. He threw just what, 700 passes at Michigan? 717. And it hasn't been a whole lot in the NFL. So he should be open in listening to the many experienced quarterbacks around him with the Vikings, right? But isn't that the issue to not reach a thousand passes between college and the NFL by year three that you're going to go into? And maybe if he comes back against Green Bay and throws a lot of passes, he could get over that threshold. But, I mean, to not be at that point yet, because I think he's got 220 now, does that make, if I've got it right, someone else can Google it. But it's definitely less than a thousand, which when you think about, that's the number of passes,

typically throw in college, and now Drake May and Bo Nix and Caleb Williams, they've got 500 per season over the last two years or somewhere in that ballpark. May didn't play right away, but you're talking about maybe 700 to 1,000 NFL, just the league doesn't wait for you. That's the problem, right? Is that it's all there that you can see the clay, but did it get really molded this year into something? Like, I don't know that it did.

still felt like watching him against the New York Giants, it still felt like week one again. It felt like training camp. It felt like the needle has not really been moved, even though he was playing a little bit better, but it was still the same sort of stuff that we've been talking about the entire year. So I think that's the challenge. And for our purposes, there's just a lot of things that we don't fully know. And what is inside Kevin O'Connell's head is something that we don't know.

what Kevin and Josh McCown have seen behind the scenes for preparation, for all that stuff. I mean, everyone says of J.J. McCarthy great things they always have. So I'm not accusing him. But preparation doesn't mean you don't try. It might be, is it sticking? Is he really getting it? Because when you watch Philip Rivers play the other night and he's like just orchestrating everything at the offensive line and he's changing this and he's adjusting that and he's

calling out this you're like that's kind of what kevin o'connell wants from his quarterback what he wants to be able to do and i look don't do it don't put in the comments how dare you compare him to a 44 you'll that's not what i said the point is o'connell wants the quarterback to have a bunch of tools at the line of scrimmage and be able to use every single one of them to get into any look he needs to beat any defense he sees only o'connell knows or what he tells the quarter of the court back he's supposed to see. But even we saw Sam grow in this a lot toward the end of the season. Sam, early on, he wanted to control everything Sam did.

But as it went along, more and more tools. And who did he win the Super Bowl with Matthew Stafford, total control? Like, that's what you're aiming for. Now, you can't ask JJ to do that as a second year, third year, fourth year, fifth year. Okay, I get it, I get it. But some version of that, that's what you need to win and perform at a super high level. and beat the lions, the Packers, and the Bears for the division next year. And only Kevin O'Connell knows whether he can get there or not.

That is my point, because I think the throwing has improved and can improve. And I think the mobility and the arm strength and the athleticism are really good, raw tools. Can you get to a point where you can consistently throw it, where you can consistently run the line of scrimmage that way, and where the playbook is fully open from right now December 23rd to what training camp and how long is that going to take I mean that how many years is that going to take it like this is not it's just not a roster that is built to wait it's not a roster it's built to wait and that's why the through line for me on this conversation with him will always be the mental side of it you mentioned the practice of stuff that's a good point because we've heard many times coaches o'connell say that we

looked good in practice. We saw him make this X throw in practice or run this play in practice and do this well. We just have not seen it translate. And that's just mental. It's the unfinished clay, whatever analogy you want to use of a guy who just doesn't have the muscle memory built in. And as soon as the lights are on, he's a leg whipping like he did back at Ann Arbor. Do you want to talk about the game? Oh, I suppose.

Oh, and Max Brosmer is going to start. Now, I asked you last time to give a 1 to 10 for intrigue of Max Brosmer. starting against Seattle. I was so intrigued. I was, I was very intrigued. I went back to check and there was a, there were some comments of like, oh, Andrew said eight out of ten. How about a million zero out of ten? How about how about this time? Max Brosmer redemption story against the Detroit Lions. I like to think that your voice, your comment or voice, I just like to think that's how they all come out. Yeah, it's much lower now. Obviously, at that point we had not seen Max since, you know, Cincinnati, he throws a couple passes, the end of the Chargers game.

Preseason. But, like, yeah, preseason. We hadn't seen it. And he looked decent against Jeffrey Simmons, who was still playing. So there was, you know, somebody out there. I'm defending myself here a little bit. But, yeah, it's much lower this time around. And it's also because the offense has changed.

I think that's the biggest key is that it looked different when Max Brosmer stepped into it in East Rutherford against the Giants. Because the offense had just gotten from, you know what, they were so used to Jefferson being the Steph Curry half court shot three point artist of like, we're going to throw it to him 15, 20, 35, 40 yards downfield, and he's going to catch everything and we're going to be amazing. And now it's just, gosh, you know what, we're going to hit the drag route on 3rd and 15 and hope Jefferson, you can do the rest. And that's just kind of what the offense is. I think that's going to help Max. That blowout loss in Seattle afterward, Kevin O'Connell said, we asked him to step into our offense because we thought he could do it. And they know now that none of their inexperienced

quarterbacks can run their system right now. So with Max, it's going to look, I think, a lot simpler. He's going to find the completions. What was it? Seven for nine for 50-some yards. Like, he's going to do more of that against a Detroit defense that gives up a lot of yardage, a lot of completions. So that's my intrigue level is more like a three or a four because I know his ceiling in this game is not going to be that high. In Seattle, they wanted him to push the ball downfield. He had the opportunity to throw for 200 yards if he could have, against a very tough secondary. Here, he'll have the opportunity to throw for that much

if guys are catching and running that far. I do want to say, heck of a throw on 3rd and 17 to Justin Jefferson. Correct. Yeah. Kind of saw Kevin O'Connell light up about it. Kind of saw Justin Jefferson light up about it. He had actually a pretty big smile because, oh, yeah,

that's the throw that they've been making for years here before this year. And nobody wanted to say that out loud. But it was like, oh, yeah, it's possible to make that throw. what I would like to see in the best case scenario for Max Brosmer, and I think that this is very reasonable and possible, is that he has enough redemption to say he's not who he was against Seattle because I don't care if they had Bill Walsh game playing in that game. It was not happening. Their offensive line got completely demolished. They could not run the ball at all. That might be the best defense in the NFL. And hey, if you're Matthew Stafford with Pooka and Kua,

Sean McVeigh and all that. You can beat it, but Max Brosmer in his first start, maybe not so much. And he made such a catastrophic mistake. It wasn't even going that badly until this just wild play that he tried to make and he got got by Ernest Jones and DeMarcus Lawrence. But that will be kind of what he's known for forever, much less than a game-winning drive, you know, where he makes a great throw and then they hand off a million times and kick a will Riker field goal.

he'll be known for that play where he throws the worst interception possible that should have yakety sacks playing behind it. I hate when that happens to a guy, you know, like when there's one miscue, the butt fumble, my friend Sage Rosenfels, who had a really good NFL career as a journeyman quarterback who gets known for a play that happened for him against the Indianapolis Colts, kind of a big game for them, and he made a mistake. I can't stand when that happens for players. who I think works super hard and they put so much into it.

And then one miss cue ends up being how they're defined. So it would be nice for him to come out and play well and then show them that, like, hey, this is a guy that you want, you want him around the building, of course, because of the type of person he is. But also, if he has to play into the future, he has a Nick Mullins vibe to him that I think we might see a lot more of than against an unbelievable defense in the hardest place to play.

Yeah, I agree. I think regardless about bad that, Look, he's still a guy who shows all the intangibles and the tangibles, as far as coaches say from what they see, that he'll be a backup at the very least in this league for a long time because of how much he loves the game, the work he puts into it, and the skill that he does have. He can find completions and process quickly, which is the processing is the thing you hear most from Vikings coaches about what they really like about him. So, yeah, I want to see him go out there and do well just because he deserves to not have that be his moment. And what a year he's had because he goes undrafted. out of the gophers, duh. Nobody expected him to get drafted. But then he has a bidding war for her services. The Vikings pay up to keep him home with over 200,000 guaranteed. And then the offseason and the camp of who's going to be the backup. Oh, none of the guys we have. We don't like any of them. He gets thrown out there in garbage time. And since he then shows up for a kneel down in London and then makes that start. Oh, no, he has to appear at the end of the game in Los Angeles, a horrific game, then makes the start in Seattle. And now he's starting back in Minnesota on Christmas Day. Like, it's just been an insane turn of events, his last 12 months, Max Brosemars, that I'm sure when he gets the chance to look back on it, he'll be happy about it, but it's got to be quite the whirlwind right now.

And you've got to hope that this is a bright spot for him, because this will be his first game he started in Minnesota, obviously, since he was with the gophers. Brozmer's over under on Fanduil for this game is 178.5 yards, would you take the over or the under? I would take the over just because I think this Vikings' offense has found its efficient. see that it's been looking for because they've obviously had a journey with figuring out what their quarterbacks could operate and do. And I think regardless of the amazing third downthrow Max had, I don't assume O'Connell's going to be like, yeah, full speed head, buddy, let's do it. I think he's going to still want to dink and dunk, try to get the easy stuff against a lion's

secondary that is just as forgiving as the NFC East opponents you just ran through. So, Detroit, speaking of ran through, but Detroit gave up what, like eight yards a run to Kenneth Gainwell and the Steelers who ran for almost 300 yards on them last week. I'm going to take the over because I think Detroit is going to want to get after this young quarterback. And I think the Vikings have found the ways to get the ball out of his hands. I also think that with the defensive unit, they are throwing out there for this game, which is a little bit different with no Josh Mattelis, no Jonathan Grenard.

It's not Jackson Dart starting. It's Jared Goff. And they're going to score. And so you're probably going to be in a situation where you have to throw a lot. if Jordan Mason isn't going to play which it didn't sound very promising then you only have two running backs you can't just hand the ball to Aaron Jones

who's also dealing with an injury and Zay Scott over and over again like Brosmer's going to have to throw the ball seems like a game we're going to see a lot of CJ Ham a lot of Josh Oliver they get some of those short stuff going underneath to guys like that and then Justin's over under his 61.5 yards

which I think Brosmer will throw it to Jefferson this time knowing he can trust Tim. Final thoughts on this game. Is there anything else that you are interested in in this football game of what can we learn? What can we find out? How does it go? Anything. I'm begging you. Well, and I don't mean to. I'm probably going to let you down here. I was going to say maybe it's the holiday spirit, whatever. I just think it's. Snoop Dog. Yeah, Calvin brought us. It's time to praise guys like Aaron Jones, like Brian O'Neill, like Blake Cash, man, like any number of guys who are playing injured, playing through things. Like, there are any number of guys who could be shutting things down for this season and the guys who have, rightfully so, because of what they were playing through.

But there are people who still love football so much that they're going to play in this incredibly meaningless game, not just for a salary, not just because they make tens of millions of dollars, but because they want to go out there and do it. And that's why you're going to tune in and watch it. And I think fans should appreciate the players they're going to be seeing out there, even if your team is seven and eight, and it's not always fun. it is football the lions are still playing for something i imagine they will not be mailing this one in in front of the national audience so my thing would be just don't get destroyed the line has moved

a bit uh but whatever it is i'll pick the lions to win the game they have one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL one of the best offenses against the backup quarterback uh Detroit yeah i'm the pick Detroit too if only because i assume dan campbell has the adjustment in hand that You're not going to keep Jimmy or Gibbs in the backfield this time, Brian Flores. We're going to put them out there and throw up to them 12 times again. I wouldn't be surprised if they go empty a lot against those looks and just try to get the ball out. But, man, it would have been fun to break down every X and O of this game. But that is just not where we're at.

And it probably won't be where we're at for a really long time. It is quite the offseason coming up for us. We'll have one more of these hardcore previews next week before the final game of the season. And I guess I will be watching for guys like Elijah. Williams and Ty Ingram Dawkins. Like, do these guys get more work? I would love to see more Ty Felton. He looks the part when he gets in games.

He just hasn't a whole heck of a lot. So I'd like to see that. And a thousand yards for Justin Jefferson. Can he get there? He's made it very clear that it is important to him. So there is that. Coming up next, a Detroit perspective on the game from Colton Pouncey, Andrew Kramer, Star Tribune.

Thank you, my friend. Football. Football. Fellas, do you ever have that feeling when you see an old? photograph of yourself that maybe your hairline isn't what it used to be. No need to be in shamed. You are certainly not alone. But why sit around feeling bad about it when there are solutions?

I present you with Hymns. Hymns brings expert care straight to you with 100% online access to personalized treatment plans that put your goals first. No hidden fees, just personalized care on your schedule. For simple online access to personalize and affordable care for hair loss and other things as well, including ED weight loss and more, visit hymns.com slash purple insider. That's himms.com slash purple insider for your free online visit. That's hymns.com slash purple insider. Individual results may vary based on studies of topical and oral monoxidil and finesteride.

Feature products include compound drug products which the FDA does not approve or very. verify for safety effectiveness or quality. Prescription is required. See website for full details, restrictions, and important safety information. All right, we welcome back to the show from the athletic. Colton Pouncey covers the Detroit Lions there. And, you know, Colton, the last time we had you on the show

was probably before week 18 of last year. I'm guessing maybe, I'm sure I had you at the Combine and different stuff like that. But, you know, to preview a game, it's a little different. little different feel, uh, to this one. So let's, let's dive into it. What is the Detroit Lions 2025 national football league season? I mean, give, describe it to me in a sentence because I used circus before we started recording. Um, can you do better than that? Yeah, inconsistent. I think that's probably the best way to put it. Um, before this last game, the previous 10 games had gone win loss, win loss win loss win loss win loss five and five their previous 10 games and they broke that

streak last week but with another loss right and that's the first time they've lost two games in a row since the 22 season so it's been a weird year to cover it man like I think you know starting week one they play the packers a lot of people saw that win over the lions for the packers as sort of this coming out for the packers like oh you know they're going to be a super bowl contender Mike Sacken, Jared Goff, the way he did. Like, this is a Super Bowl contender if I've ever seen one. Now they're fighting for the seventh seed. You get week two, Lions Bears in Chicago, everyone's like,

ooh, what is Ben Johnson going to do? Lions win that game 52, 21, something like that. Like, I think a lot of us are like, okay, well, this offense is back. Like, they're going to be just fine. And obviously, in a lot of ways they are. They're second overall in scoring, had led the league for most of the year in scoring. It just looked different, and it's been inconsistent. So they're, you know, when they play teams,

good defensive lines that kind of struggle the trench the trench play has been brutal this year i would say like the offensive line allowing some of the quickest pressure in the NFL jerry golf has been hit like the second most times of any quarterback this year so that's been a problem in the trenches when you're kind of rebuilding that line without frank rag now uh and then the other side hutch is ain hudgerson had a good year probably not to where he was playing last year before he got hurt and then they haven't gotten much help outside of him so really everything starts in the trenches for this team the scope positions are still pretty good. They've had some injuries in the secondary, but, you know, without their usual, you know, dominance in that, in that trench area, it looks

a little different. And, like, that leads you to eight and seven. That's a difference between eight and seven and even, like, a 12 and five season, like they had a couple years ago. So they've been inconsistent because of it. Are you guys talking about that, like, hey, the entire world saw this coming and maybe you should have done something different in the off season? Because it really was the number one discussion this offseason surrounding the Detroit Lions. Okay, Ben Johnson leaving, and that's a huge deal. And I don't think that no matter how good not former wide receiver John Morton has done, it's not the same as Ben Johnson who we see what he's doing in Chicago. That guy's a freak. But still, you know, I think that it mostly

centered back to Frank Rag now not being there as the operator of the offense. And then It was just kind of odd that they let Kevin Zitler go and he signed with, I think, Tennessee for almost nothing. And they trusted some of their young players. And that hasn't paid off, including when they played the Minnesota Vikings, it got completely mind bleeped by Brian Flores. Yeah, no doubt. I mean, the Ben Johnson stuff, like, they're lucky to have him as long as they did because he could have left after his first year's OC. He could have left ever second year's OC and he came back twice.

So they're lucky they got three years out of Ben Johnson. Zosi. And we all knew that Ben was going to be a phenomenal offensive mind as a head coach, offensive play caller as a head coach. So it's no surprise to see what he's done with the Bears. You know, they've taken advantage of kind of an easier light schedule and they're in the playoffs. And I'm excited to see what they do. But really, to me, losing Frank Ragnow the way they did was brutal. When that happened, I was like, okay, overcoming this and Ben Johnson and Aaron Glenn, who, like, to his credit, kept that defense afloat as best as he could with all the injuries last year. And they were signing guys off the street. And those guys, like, knew how to play as one,

even though, you know, they didn't, they weren't as talented as some of the guys they lost. They at least, like, knew the scheme. And that's because it was really coached well from Aaron Glenn. So they've had some injuries this year. And guys are out there. And it's like, they don't really know what they're doing. So I think coaching, losing two coordinators was probably bigger deal than a lot of people let on. But losing Frank and Kevin Zitler, as you mentioned, they really didn't have to let Kevin Zitler go. They could have resigned it.

I think he wanted to be here too. But, yeah, losing two pieces on the offensive line. And then the Ed's conversation where oh, we're just going to run it back with Marcus Davenport as Vikings fans know is probably not a good idea. No. And they didn't run it back after they had him

for one year and only played like six games, I think, for the Vikings. He played three games for Lions last year. and they ran it back, and he's missed, I think, nine games this year. And when he's come back, he hasn't been effective. So it's like the trenches, like a lot of people saw that coming. Like we were writing about that all offseason. Every time I go on a show like this, people ask me about it in the off season, like,

oh, what are they going to do? I'm like, I think they're good with what they have. And it's proven not to be good enough. Like, I think that's sort of the bottom line. It's like the offensive line play is so crucial to everything they do. The run game has been so inefficient and inconsistent this season, where Gibbs will have 180 yards one game and like 30 the next, you know, you can't live and die like that.

Jared, I'll give Jared a ton of credit. He's playing really good football, 32 touchdowns, five interceptions while getting hit a ton. So I think he's sort of changed some nerves about him. But even then, he needs some help. So, yeah, I think a lot of people knew that was an issue and the lines really didn't really address it the way they should have. You know, there's a little bit of a hubris element that's getting discussed here about the quarterback position, which was we're us, so we'll coach it up. And clearly a quarterback not being

ready in J.J. McCarthy, you can't just, you know, magic wand coach it up. It feels like the same sort of thing existed for the offensive line. Like we're us. We've developed these guys. We'll just coach it up and we'll make it work. And sometimes it really comes down to the talent of guys like Frank Ragnow and Kevin Zitler. I do agree with you that Jared Gough has really shown that he can overcome a lot this season. He's given them a chance to win. So we'll talk about that Flores matchup with Jared Gough in just a second. But the defense is really fascinating to me because early in the year, I thought my brain was seeing things that Calvin Shepard was doing that were a little more modern, a little more

Flores-esque, not like he had gone full Flores or something, but, you know, a little bit more zone, a little bit more like, oh, they're changing coverages after the snap and stuff like that. And my take then going into the last game was like, oh, this is going to be a little different from when the Vikings faced them with Aaron Glenn, where we kind of all knew it was going to be man coverage the whole game. What in the world has happened over the last five weeks or so where every lion's game I tune into, they're just getting cooked. And okay, Dak Prescott, you know, doing it, fair enough. I mean, Aaron Rogers is playing okay, but he's not playing that okay. what in the world has happened to this defense? Yeah, it's, it's really baffling because I would say the first half of the year,

they were a top 10 unit in the league, like in yards for a game allowed and points, like the underlying metrics, like the pressure rate was there. Like they were doing some good things, I thought. And like the stacks kind of came in bunches, but I still thought overall, you know, given what they paid for for some of those edges, like they were getting like Al-Qaeda having nine sacks so far or something like that. been a revelation, but, like, I thought in the first half of the year, the defense playing good football. And then you get them in the second half. And I think that Vikings game kind

of broke them in some ways. Um, Alex Anzolone just completely underestimating J.J. McCarthy speed on that almost, I don't know if he scored on that play, but, uh, he did, yeah, came pretty close enough. Okay, he did score. Yeah. Um, that's when I was like, okay, what's going on here? And really since then, you want to say maybe the Eagles game, um, they kind of show what they can do when they're right. But, you know, injuries have kind of hurt them. DJ Reed missed a lot of time on IR with the hamstring injury. He came back and has not looked the same, has not looked like a guy that you're paying $16 million a year for. Terran Arnold, I thought, was improving from where he was as a rookie. But now he's on IR with a shoulder injury, had surgery. He's done for the

year. You know, Kirby Joseph has had a knee injury most of the season, and he tried to play through it early and gutted out. He was not really himself. and they shut him down. He's missed, like, the last nine games. Now Brian Branch has an Achilles. So, you know, the injuries haven't helped the situation, obviously, but I still think, you know, they have enough, like Rocky Seen is a good player. Like, Amiga Robertson is a good player.

And, like, I think the scheme and relying on these guys to play man coverage that are backups for as long as they do, it's tough. It's tough on those guys. It's an unfair position. I think Shep tried to change it up because really the last four games, they've averaged like 450 yards allowed it like as a floor some of us have topped that but really the last few games they need to change it up and shop tried to play more zone against the Steelers and it costs them in the run game you give up 230 rushing yards because guys don't know what they're

doing because you're trying to change on the fly so um I think when the system has its pieces it can work but the way they play and the physicality that they play with leads to injuries that just happen every year and if that's going to be the case and you don't have the depth to account for that, then it's going to leave you vulnerable. And that's really what I've seen at least in the secondary. And even though in the front seven, a lot of those guys are healthy.

They're just not playing well. So it's a combination of injuries and just not being good enough. Yeah, I mean, it feels very San Francisco-ish in that way, where when you have the guys who play with a certain type of style, it does lead to more injuries along the way. And I think that even though you're right that there's some of those guys who have decent histories as backups. They're not Branch and Joseph.

I mean, that's one of the best, if not the best safety combination in the entire NFL. So if it all kind of starts with those guys, making plays, turning the ball over and so forth, and you take those two guys away. And it's just two other guys.

I mean, that's the hardest thing. Sometimes in NFL analysis is that we always need to assign blame. And sometimes there isn't a blame. It's just guys got hurt. And, well, you don't have any depth. I'm sorry. Are there a bunch of teams that have a lot of depth?

I mean, there's. Yeah, every team has three Brian branches. Right. Yeah, right. Exactly. I mean, if this was, uh, I don't know, 1960 and there were only like, you know, 16 teams or something, but, uh, there's 32.

So that was the Vikings defense earlier this year where the explanation was pretty clear. It was, you know, Van Ginkle is out and Cashman is out and you're not the same defense. And then they came back and it was like, they figured it out. Well, yeah. because those guys are awesome in football. So what is Max Brosmer facing as a defense now? And take into consideration, Colton,

that the Vikings will be missing Christian Derisaw and Ryan Kelly, their two best offensive linemen outside of Brian O'Neill. Yeah, I mean, I think you think Hutch can have a good day. He usually feasts on backup tackles and whatnot. Alie McNeil could have a good, I mean, he's been so inconsistent. And he came back from his torn ACL around October. And some games, he looks dominant, some games he disappears.

So I think wines probably need some consistency from him. You know, maybe that can, he can find some of that on Thursday. Keep forgetting what day it is. I don't know. But, yeah, I mean, a young quarterback like that going against, you know, lines do have some good defensive line pieces, but they need more from those guys. They've been really inconsistent outside of punch. Muhammad comes and goes

Aline comes and goes Davenport comes and enters and leaves the lineup with injuries so if they can create pressure and Shep does some of his simulated looks that he likes then maybe you can confuse Brazmer a little bit but really I think he could have some success against the secondary because

Lions have just allowed a ton of passing yards a ton of explosive plays explosive pass plays over the last five six weeks and yeah some of that's against Stafford against Dak against Jordan Love some of it's against James Winston. So you never really know what you're going to get out of the secondary the way they are right now.

So we'll see. I mean, if they want to continue playing like the higher zone rate that they played last week, you know, we'll see it had some issues and it left them voter in the run game. So I guarantee you, Shep didn't love that part of it. And he's going to have to kind of weigh that the pros and cons of playing so much zone on the fly. If that's an offseason change they want to make and they have months and months to kind of build that out, it would make more sense if they want to overhaul the scheme a little bit, but trying to do it on the fly with like two weeks left in the season,

it's kind of tough. I also think that if they're not sharp in that and they're playing sitting back in zones, the one thing that Max Brosmer, I would say, does fairly well is identify what he's seeing. Now, if DeMarcus Lawrence comes free and grabs him by the arm, it's a little bit different as we saw against Seattle. But against the Giants, they didn't get, they got some pressure up front, but it wasn't like it was crushing him. They didn't really blitz.

They sat back in zones. And Brosmer was able to complete passes, including one really excellent throw to Justin Jefferson to convert a third in 17. So it's not like we're talking about somebody who can't do anything. But if he gets pressured, he's not a good enough athlete to go make plays to run away from Aiden Hutchinson. It's just not happening. So that's what it's really going to come down to.

I did want to ask you about Tiley Williams first round draft pick. are the folks in Detroit saying maybe you should have gone a different direction or it's a good draft pick? Because I'm kind of interested in turning the conversation very shortly into like what are all of our futures like? And that's definitely part of it. Yeah. So like my podcast friend of Nick Bangler and I, we we love Tileak Williams coming out of the draft. And we thought that he fell into that future needs bucket. And they had a few of those that they could have gone to. Now they obviously have more pressing needs like edge and maybe center now in hindsight but not at the time obviously um but with tyleek i think the idea is let's get this like run stuffing nose tackle

that has some what what they think some untapped pass rush potential and they like it him a lot to lee mcneal uh coming out of nc state a few years ago where let's trim some weight there's a good athlete in there um he could be a three tech if we want to be but we actually don't need him be 3 tech because we signed a liam so let him be a nose tackle stop the run he's really instinctive you watch his tape on it when he was at ohio state he's identifying things before the snap knowing where the ball is going and his shedding blockers to go to that spot and you know paved his way through the gap um so he's done some of that you've seen it on tape for the lines this year but it has been consistent he's played like a like a rookie i think the fan base is never going to appreciate drafting a nose tackle

at 28 like right when you have some more pressing needs like if we're being honest the lines determined that was a need because DJ Reeder, entering the final year of his contract right now, probably not going to be back next year. And that's why you draft High League so he can, you don't have to worry about that next year. But obviously, when you have all these, I don't want to say a ton because you didn't know like safety was going to be a knee and whatnot. Some of these injuries have popped up. But I do think tackle was a long-term concern.

Taylor Decker is kind of pondering retirement right now. So like could have drafted one last year. you know, edge is a problem in a lot of ways. They don't have a young edge to build around for the future. Even Al-Qaeda Muhammad is 30 years old. So we're going to have to grab a young guy in there soon at some point. The only one they drafted was Ahmad Hasanin, who's a six-round pick. So, yeah, I mean, I think some people look at that draft and say, well, we could have had so-and-so.

We could have had, you know, Donovan Azaraki. We could have drafted a young tackle to, you know, for the future. But when you have a defensive tackle that is a run stuffer, it's not the sexist position. and I think people are kind of responding that way. Right. And, you know, this is why it's almost like every team that's good falls into the same exact traps, which is, well, like, we're good now. We want to win right now.

So we need to get this one position that really is important to us in the very near future, whether it's this year or next year, as opposed to maybe looking at bigger picture of, hey, two years down the road, you're kind of drafting for or just best player available, which he may have been, but when we go through the actual value of draft picks, run stuffing nose tackle is a position that you can generally find in free agency for not tons of dollars unless you're talking about like the best of the absolute best. But, you know, guys who come in like a Harrison Phillips, the jets acquired him from the Vikings in a trade for a fifth or a sixth round draft pick

and he's making nine million bucks and he's pretty good at it. And so those, those guys generally are not ones that you draft unless that past rushing upside is enormous, or it's like a Derek Brown who just takes over entire football games by himself. And I don't know that that's, that's Tileak Williams, which kind of does lead us into because I think we know for this game, hey, Jared Gough and Brian Flores, it's a great matchup and they'll probably send a little cross doggy blitzes and try to get, you know, uh, Jemir Gibbs off his game again. And I do think it's a little bit of a Brian Flores, hey, let's not forget about B-Flow in the hiring process this year.

type of, you know, island game for him. So I think that's all important, but I really think what's more important to our conversation is what's going to happen in this offseason. So what do you think the approach for the Lions will be? Because they are still very much in win now mode, but they are no longer a team that's just, oh, we've got dollars falling from the ceilings in terms of their cap. They've paid some people and they have an expensive quarterback. How will they fix what has ailed them?

and do you feel like where where are we at window wise wide open medium open or almost shuddy open it's open um you know it's open because there's still a ton of talent on this on this roster that's why you know when you look at it it's disappointing to go eight and seven because you're just like ow you know how have you lost seven games and their schedule's been tough i'll admit that but um they've also lost some games i thought they should have won so when that happens you got to take a look in the mirror and say how can we fix this because we don't feel like we're far off we don't think we need like a huge overhaul but we do probably have to change our approach a little bit because last year they went to free agency and said we're going to bring back Marcus Davenport we're going to sign Alquini

Muhammad we're going to trust our guys that we have like LeVan Zerike, Josh Pascal to stay healthy three of the players I mentioned have not been healthy and Alcuddin Mohammed is a journeyman defensive edge defensive end who's probably going to make some money this off season so do you bring him back like these are conversations you have to have now So I do think I actually wrote a story just kind of on the theme of Christmas, which should be their offseason wish list position-wise. And I think you've got to look at center for sure. And like I don't think they can afford a young center because Jerry Gough is a veteran quarterback

that probably doesn't want to have to deal with a young center going against a Brian Flores defense for two games a year. So you're going to need a center. Frank Ragnow literally almost came out of retirement. Would have played if he didn't realize he had a great three hamster. strain, which is off the bone, apparently, which is crazy to me to hear. Part of me wonders, why would he only come back for four games? That doesn't really make a lot of sense for me. Like, oh, I'm going to come back for this late season stretch, but I'm going to retire again.

That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. So I almost wonder if, like, quietly he's gearing up for a return in 26. And that would answer a lot of problems if he does decide to come back and give another run, because he's not even 30 yet. He's 29 years old. If his body heals and he wants to come back, put him at center that takes away one need if not he wants to stay retired then you're going to need a long-term center i don't know if they think tate ratlitch can be that guy if they don't grand glasgow's entering the final year's contract you'd save some money by cutting it i think they probably do that and they maybe have to trade or sign the center offensive tackle if taylor decker doesn't come back he's thinking about retirement

even if he does come back you probably need a long-term answer it would make some sense to do the tyleek williams plan with dj reader but do that with decker now uh drives a tackling the first where there should be some options for them if they want to go that route. But you need a long-term tackle because he's thinking about retirement openly. Eds, we just talked about safety with Brian Branch, probably going to be out until November with the Achilles. Like, I mean, he got injured in December, so that's kind of tough. And then Kirby Joseph, that knee injury, we talked to him a few weeks ago in the locker room. And he did not want to talk to us, but like he did. And we asked him all these questions

about the knee, how's it going, because they thought rest would improve it. He said surgery won't help. The rest hasn't been helping. He came back to practice and immediately suffered a setback. And that's why they put him on eye art. So Campbell was asked, is this like a thing that can linger? And he goes, you know, sometimes you have these injuries and guys just have to gut it through for the rest of their career. You know, like you have these cartilage things. And and, you know, whatnot. It's just something you might have to monitor and try to manage as best you can. So when he said that and combined with Kirby's sort of, that was the most depressing scrum I've been a part of when he was talking about that knee injury. I feel really bad for him, but I don't really know what the future looks like.

If he is able to come back and has a full offseason arrest, then maybe he can look like himself, but this is something that's going to linger for the rest of his career, then that's a question mark now. So between Branch and CERbie at safety, you might have to figure that out. It went from one of the best safety tangents in the league to injured. And then, by the way, Branch is in a contract year next year. So he's not going to have much time to prove that he can be worthy of a long-term extension if he comes back for four games. So a lot of change in a short amount of time here. No, that's, that is a lot. And that's why, you know, I saw Greg Rosethal of NFL.com.

a great podcast there. He said that he thinks about all the time the quote from Dan Campbell, right? About like, hey, you never know. Like this might have been our last. Right. It could have been our best shot. And Josh Reynolds' hands not holding on to a football against the San Francisco 49ers. It probably was.

But the one thing about Jared Gough is that he continues to put together these great seasons. And I think that what Gough has a stage. there now is that he is good enough to guide you through where everything goes wrong this season. You lose crazy games. The defense falls apart. Everything's, you know, the offensive line, pets heads falling off, all that stuff. And you're still in the playoff race with a throw that goes into the end zone for a touchdown and gets taken off the board that would have given you a great shot to beat Max Brosmer at US Bank Stadium and then make the playoffs. Like that's, he's established himself of that level of he's going to keep you there and I think is still very much in his prime without the end looking

like it's anywhere near for him, which to me keeps that window open. It's really about how do you work around the expensive contracts of Penae, Sewell, Amunras, St. Brown, Jamir Gibbs will eventually get paid here at some point. And, you know, obviously Aiden Hutchinson, like at some point that does become challenging. And teams who are incredible, they come apart. Guys get hurt. Guys get paid. we're seeing this in Kansas City where it's like yes folks that Kansas City roster is horrible and Patrick Mahomes was giving him a chance and dragged them to a Super Bowl I feel like not the golf is Mahomes but it's sort of the the same way unless they have another monster off season but the difference between and I've actually seen a little criticism of brad homes for the

first time ever yeah the difference between when brad homes built that thing masterfully and now is you had 43 of the first 44 draft picks, and now you do not. So how did they get that done? Yeah. I mean, first of all, talking about golf, I feel like I've earned a lot of respect. You know, my respect in golf has increased a lot this year, watching him take the hits he's taken, standing there in the pockets, put up 32 touchdowns, five picks. Like that's a year that is worthy of praise amid everything he's gone through,

losing his office coordinator, losing his center, who can identify. so much, having a young offensive line around him, and still producing at a high level. I've earned a lot, like, he's earned a lot of respect from me. Not that he wants it or needs it, but that's kind of how I've watched it this year. But yeah, I mean, like,

you know, it's funny because the pro bowl rosters were announced today, and Jack Campbell was a pro bowler. So really the first four picks now in the 2020 draft class for Lions, Jamir Gibbs, Jack Campbell, Sam Porter, Brian Branden. All those guys have been named pro bowlers in their careers.

You look at the rest of that class. None of those guys are really around. You look at the 2024 draft. Terry on Arnold, I.R. Ennis Rakeshra, Schra, I.R. Giovanni Manu, I.R. And a project tackle, who they try to convince themselves that can be the deck of replacement, but has not proven capable of that so far.

Sioni Vaki, core specialist, who they are trying to convince us he's a running back long term. He's been in and out of the line up with injuries. Mackay Wingo, defensive tackle in the sixth round, injured, or not even injured, actually. He's just a healthy scratch most of the year. He was injured. Now he's healthy scratch. Christian Mahogany was on IR, starting the left guard, has been really consistent since he's come back and really throughout the course of the year. First year as a starter.

Look at the 2025, Talyke Tate and Tassah, their first three picks, Tate Routledge and Isaac D'Slaw, have given them some stuff, but not really an impact guy. So you're not finding the Brian branches that Jemir. gives and i get it you're not drafting this high but man like you need to be able to hit it you need to be able to hit on some of these guys and they're trading future picks for giovanni manu like you trade a third round pick for giovanni manu uh they traded two thirds to get basically to get isaac to slot so now they're parting ways with like these picks that they're going to need to kind of rebuild the depth here for kind of swings at guys and it might have to be a a philosophy changed this offseason where you can't just fall in love with the project

and give up future resources for that guy because you need him. So as I look at the roster, it's going to be high price and expensive in the coming years. You need those third round picks to kind of keep the talent afloat. And make sure you have that depth. So when the guys do get hurt, everything doesn't fall apart the way it has. So that's kind of the way I see it. It's, I think it's a tough position to be in where you are just good enough. And the Vikings went through this post-2017.

just good enough to always be in the conversation when they had Kirk playing at a very high level and they had a transition of the roster away from those guys who had been the core and they needed to draft and develop players to take those spots. But as they were drafting those players, it was a lot of first round draft picks. It was some guys that were very high first round draft picks. It was the luckiest draft maybe ever, 2015, where they got DeNeil Hunter or the third, Stefan Diggs in the fifth and Eric Hendricks in the second. It's funny. Their first round pick was a really good player, Trey Waynes.

It wasn't even close to the other guys that they picked. And that's the type of draft that Brad Holmes had. And it's really funny, Colton, because we talk about this all the time with Quasi Adolfo Mento, where it's like, you're sort of a great drafter until you're not. And I saw a chart the other day from Michael Lopez, who works for the NFL, about how other leagues have gotten more accurate as years have gone on through the decades at drafting, the NFL is not. It's still every bit is random.

And injuries, I think, are the big thing that separates it from other sports, that there's so many injuries here. But the league is designed for teams to rise and fall at all times. And the lions are no different than anybody else. You didn't have the magic potion. You just nailed one draft. And then now you have to figure out ways to stay alive here. So if I were predicting for next season, the order of the NFC North, it's a ridiculous question, but who cares about this game?

So what would you have it? As of right now, when you're not 100% sure who the Vikings quarterback is, but I think you know who the Lions will probably be. I think you know who the Packers will be. And I think you know who the Bears will be. How would you order it? Well, it's interesting because the Bears, I think they benefited. from the fourth place schedule, if you're being honest. And, like, it's almost, in some ways, it's, it's easier to go from, like, bad to good

than it is to go from, like, good to great or even great to elite. So, like, the Bears make this jump. I think that's sort of just the parody in the NFL and how it's designed. Like, that's why you see so many teams kind of rise and fall, as you mentioned. So I still see more from that from the Bears. They've obviously done a great job winning these close games, but they've had some luck and with some devil magic a little bit in some ways. Yes, a lot of it.

I'm not sure if that's sustainable from year to year, like winning these close games as ties they are. So, you know, the Packers, when they get Michael back, will be good. They didn't have Jane Reeve most of the year. The Lions, if they fix the center position, really, and the office line the trenches, I think they'll be just right back where they are. So the Vikings, I think, that's the team where I'm just not sure. Like, if JJ makes a leap, then, yeah, I could see it.

But I think that's sort of a big question mark right now. So you want to give me an order? What are you asking for? How about an order, but also it's smart of you to point out the last play scheduled. The Vikings and Lions might be playing for that. And I think Jared Goff playing is a pretty big edge for Detroit. But if the Vikings fumble the bag there, the difference between the third place teams this year and the fourth place teams, I was looking at this the other day. I'm like, oh, you want to go seven and ten.

You want to make sure that you are locked. into that bottom because if you play the third place teams those are good franchises those are like you know the colts or the 49er like there's a lot of teams in good divisions that have finished third but fourth is all the garbage fires so that's going to make a difference i think for the vikings and we think it's going to be mccarthy we're not really sure we're talking about another injury here that's three injuries in one season four and two seasons 35 potential games played and he's been in eight and a half of them uh and is 42nd out of 44 and quarterback rating like those things don't really scream he has to be your quarterback for next

season but just for the heck of it what would you project the order today today I would go oh man if you get this wrong we're not friends anymore after 2026 we're done never coming on the show again Alex Lewis won't talk to you that's I'm fine with that actually yeah that's probably everything else yeah I would go I don't think the lines are far off honestly so this might be a homer pick but i would go lines one they just got to fix the offense one i think um and probably find another edge uh lines one go um i got to see the bears against a good schedule i really do um but man ben's doing some good things of it you know what i'll go bears two packers three viking sport and i already

regret that but that's what i'll go with for now that's what i'll go with for now but the fourth-place schedule for the Vikings as we talked about can be a big thing that could matter you're talking about that's a difference between san francisco or like Arizona yes or like yes uh the colts with you know i don't know when danio jones come back but the colts versus the titans you know i think is one of them and the nmc east i think is like uh the commanders i guess versus the giants so healthy jaden daniels versus right a giant's team that went has two two wins right now so yeah it's a big difference for sure well also joe burrow's going to be the quarterback of the viking so then you are going to have to change uh your projection after that uh oh uh this this game we we just saying i mean right

now at as we record this on fan duel the Detroit lions are five and a half point favorites and the over under is 44.5 so do with what you will with those numbers i mean i would easily pick the lines to cover that that may change uh you know going forward here but we're just assuming the Lions should win this football game? I think so. I probably shouldn't assume anything with this team right now. But I think so. I would be shocked at the end season on a losing streak the way that would be

I don't know if they'll win in Chicago Week 18. So that could be a four-game losing streak if they drop this one. That doesn't really scream Dan Campbell team. I think they'll find a way to salvage what they have, but still miss the playoffs. Mr. Pouncey, great stuff as always. good to get together. And, you know, I think, I think we grind it here.

I think that we made a good discussion out of Vikings, lions, even though America may not see the football game that Netflix once dreamed of. Do they get a refund if it's backup? They go right that into the next deal. It's like, all right, we get 30% off if it's not the starting quarterbacks for both games, especially Patrick Mahomes. And I think JJ moves the needle with a lot of people as well, just because he's interesting.

But anyway, you do awesome work. I follow everything that you do there at the athletic. One of the best beat reporters out there. So people should follow you on whatever social media you're on and over there at the athletic. So great stuff. Can't wait to see you in town and we'll celebrate Christmas together. Absolutely. Can't wait.

Appreciate it, man. Thanks, Samuel.