Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Riley Reiff is staying... what does it mean short and long term? Plus Vikings vs. Packers questions

Episode Date: September 1, 2020

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And I waited. Normally podcasts come out right in the morning, but I waited because I thought even though I'm being told Riley Reif has told his teammates that he's getting cut, you just never know with the Minnesota Vikings. And here we are, everyone. Riley Reif is back. Nothing happened. The offensive line is the same as it ever was but we had a fun 24 hours of debating the Vikings if they were to cut Riley

Reif. So here to help me break down not only that but how good the Vikings offensive line could be this year is known as the O-Line Guy Trench Warfare Podcast. He's been on many times. Brandon Thorne, what is up, Brandon? Not too much, man. I'm excited to be here as always. And just there's a lot going on in Minnesota. So we have a lot to talk about. So it's going to be good. Well, I said to you that, you know, you're always going to have a spot on this podcast forever and always because the offensive line is not going to stop being a conversation. So let me get your analysis right off the bat. The difference between keeping Riley Reif, bringing him back at left tackle, and the continuity of the offensive line that's practiced together all throughout training camp versus what it would have been had they had Brian O'Neill switch positions

and Rashad Hill start at right tackle just 12 days before facing the Green Bay Packers. Yeah, I mean, it obviously eliminates a lot of uncertainty. And in this offseason that we're facing, that everyone's facing right now in the NFL, I think that that's a good thing, more so than usual, because I think continuity, it's always important for offensive line, but I think it's going to be a little bit more important not just for offensive line, but for every position this year with the shortened offseason and condensed practices and things like that. So, I mean, ultimately, I think that this was a positive and, you know,

for both the team and for Riley Reif probably as well. So, yeah, I mean, I'm kind of glad it didn't happen for that one, you know, aspect. And then again, you know, I was kind of getting myself prepared to see Brian O'Neill left tackle. I was kind of excited about that. But, you know, that was just me kind of being a, you know, a nerd and a fan. But, you know, just, you know, big picture perspective, I think it was a, you know, a nerd and a fan, but, you know, just, you know, big picture perspective, I think it was a, you know, a good thing for the Vikings. Well, we'll definitely get to the idea of Brian O'Neill at left tackle, because this gives us a hint of what they're thinking toward the future here, potentially, but let's stick with Riley Reif just for a minute. He is a guy that,

since he's been here, and anytime you sign a big contract, you're going to be under the spotlight, has gotten a lot of criticism from fans as not an elite left tackle. But I think he still falls under the range of being an average left tackle. My only question is, should they have bumped him into guard from the very outset? Maybe he didn't want to do that. And maybe he would have said, just cut me instead and let me go somewhere else. But if that was on the table for him to play guard and then had them move Brian O'Neill over to left tackle Rashad Hill or Ole Udo into right tackle right from the beginning of camp, would that have been a better option for him? Or do you think that they're still in good

shape with having him as their left tackle? I mean, it's like you said, it makes it hard to say because of what he would have preferred personally and how he would have taken to that. So, which, you know, I obviously can't speak to that. So I, you know, there's, it was kind of hard to say from that perspective, but just purely on the field I think that he probably could transition inside. Although I still kind of maintain that his best position, the best tape that I've seen Riley Reif on is in 2016, a right tackle.

You know, he's played left most of his career. And I think we kind of saw him go to a different level there. He just looked a little better there. Maybe that was just kind of a fluke thing. But, you know, so I kind of favor him better there. Maybe that was just kind of a fluke thing, but, you know, so I kind of favor him over there, you know, if I had to pick one spot, and then secondarily, I'd probably just lean left tackle just because his comfort level, and I think that's really important for players. I mean, they have to feel confident in what they're doing to succeed, you know, and if he,

you know, if you introduce something like that to him that's new, you know, with, you know, given everything we talked about with this offseason and all that, you know, I don't know. I mean, he probably could have done it and been okay. But I think that this iteration of the line is probably going to be the best option for 2020. And then, you know, moving forward off of that, you know, obviously I think things are going to look quite a bit different, but yeah, I think this is probably the best way to go just because it creates the least amount of uncertainty. So Gary Kubiak said earlier this offseason that he felt like he left Riley Reif out to dry a couple of times last year, and I think we all know what Riley Reif's strengths and weaknesses are. His strength is strength, and his weakness is

usually when guys have great quickness and bend around the edge that they can beat him and get to Kirk Cousins and cause pressure. Now, can Gary Kubiak do something to help that? Because I think especially if they end up in a lot of drop back situations, there isn't much you can do as an offensive coordinator, but how can they get the most out of what is very, very likely to be their last year of Riley Reeves? Yeah, I mean, I think more of what we saw last year, you know, I loved what they did in the screen game. You know, the amount of play action is, you know, I think increasing that is a possibility. You know, of course, the bigger personnel packages,

so you can have more guys on the line of scrimmage can help. Using multiple backs in the backfield and then having one of them potentially stay in the protection to help that side. You know, given, you know, depending on the matchup, you know, depending on if the, you know, the defensive end or the edge rusher that week is better coming over Riley Reif's edge or, you know, Brian O'Neill's, you know, it would be kind of dependent on that as well. So I think that personnel scheme, you know, maybe some RPOs, misdirection, all those kind of things that just create a little bit of hesitancy in the defense

pre-snap are always helpful for offensive linemen or not always but most of the time so I think those things you know I think Kubiak is really you know a master at doing that when you look back on the offenses that he's designed in the past whether it's Houston or Baltimore or Denver I think that he did a really good job of moving the pocket and getting the quarterback on the move and changing the launch point. And I think that that can really help offensive linemen if it's done with a lot of intent and at the right times and against the right people and things like that. So I think I'm pretty confident in Kubiak designing an offense that will help offensive linemen as much as probably anybody else, any other play designer, play caller in the league. And I think he's done that for many years,

taking offensive lines that wouldn't have been as good in certain systems and help them improve quite a bit. And they were one of the best screen teams in the NFL. I think that is for sure a strength of Riley Reif. So I don't think that that's going anywhere. I want you to compare for me where you think the Vikings would have ranked in terms of their two tackles had they gone with Rashad Hill and Brian O'Neal versus Brian O'Neal and Riley Reif. So would they change? I know you like to do it by tier rather than, well, they would have been 17th, but would it change it in your mind at all where you would have had them?

It's a pretty minimal, you know, difference, I think, with either one of those. I probably lean in favor of the current depth chart that they have with Reif and O'Neal just because of the experience of those two, the continuity. I think those two things probably give the edge to O'Neal at left and Hill at right. You know, and I think maybe in the long run, it's possible that O'Neal could be better on the left side. I don't know that. But I think at least for 2020, he's probably going to be a better right tackle than left tackle. And then I think Reif would probably be, you know, the same or I think at least for 2020, he's probably going to be a better right tackle than left tackle. And then I think Reif would probably be, you know, the same. I think he's probably going to be a better left tackle than Hill would have been as a right tackle. So, you know, I lean what they have right now.

All right. Let's talk about Brian O'Neill to left tackle because his athleticism is something that you and I have been highlighting since 2018 on various shows. It has only grown in terms of his size and his strength. And last year he had a tremendous season, and I think he's on the cusp of being one of the better players at that position in the NFL, that when you draft a guy, you look at what could his ceiling be. Brian O'Neill is pretty darn close to his ceiling as a right tackle.

Should they just stick with that? Because right tackle is still really darn valuable in the NFL going forward with him and try to put Ezra Cleveland in the future at left tackle? Or do you look at it like the more valuable position is left tackle, so move that guy to the most valuable position because he's your best player? I look at it like leaving the guy at the position that he's played more and is more comfortable at and that he can develop more consistent, you know, just, you know, movement patterns and muscle memory, that kind of stuff. I believe it's probably wise to keep him in that position. And in this case, O'Neal right tackle. And then especially with the landscape of the NFL today, pass rushers come off both sides pretty equally. I think we've talked about this in the past. And, you know,

I don't, I think it kind of depends on scheme a lot of the time in the specific organization, as far as which tackle spot is more important. I don't think it's totally even across the board. I think that's kind of too generic to say. And if I had to pick one, I'd probably say left tackle is a little more important just because I think when you watch, you know, the teams across the NFL and the way the offenses are designed, I think most of the time help is going towards the right tackle. And that, you know, I think the gap is kind of closing a little bit as it was maybe, you know, five to six, seven years in the past. I think it's kind of gotten, you know, closer together and the value

has never been more even. But I think if you had to pick one, it'd probably be left. But that's still not enough to sway me to say, yeah, just move the guy over sides, just because that position may be a little bit more important, you know, in certain schemes or whatever. So yeah, I'm in favor of keeping him on the right side. And I, I think that he could get quite a bit better still, I think that that anchor in pass protection versus power rushers and his overall play strength, you know, can can certainly improve more. And if it continues to head in that direction, you know, I've mentioned this on Twitter, but, you know, Brian O'Neill is kind of reminding me a little bit of Lane Johnson.

Just the way that he moves, it's kind of similar. Like they're, to me, the most athletic two right tackles in the NFL. They're just very explosive and efficient as well. I think O'Neal is getting more and more efficient. Now Lane is obviously much further in his career and I think Lane Johnson's anchor, his technique is kind of unique as well. He has kind of a double under technique where he kind of comes up with both hands underneath the pass rusher and lifts them up and that kind of halts their momentum quickly. And it's something that not a lot of guys do at a very high level like Lane Johnson.

So I don't know if O'Neal can adopt some of those techniques or not, but that would probably be helpful to him to try. I don't know if, you know, if that's even, you know, I'm sure he watches other right tackles in the league, but that's something that Lane does that kind of really allows him to have a really good anchor on top of being such a good athlete. Usually you don't get those two things combined, but I think that's why Lane Johnson is, you know, maybe the best right tackle in the league. So, but yeah, I think O'Neal can improve in that way. And I think based on last year, man, I've really got to watch more of his tape over the last couple of weeks.

And I mean, I'm just really excited about what's happening with him and his development. I think, you know, I think we talked about this as well. But you know, when they went to more of an outside zone scheme, it's, you know, I thought that that was the ideal system for him to grow in. And I'm thankful and excited that Kubiak is now in charge and is just going to continue that. So I think that O'Neal has a chance to really elevate himself, you know, in like the top five, six right tackle range by the end of the season. I think that that's possible. And that's why the idea of moving him to left tackle,

though if it is more valuable or they see it that way, even though it might be negligible now, okay, it makes sense. But at the same time, on the right side is where – or right side, the offense anyway – is where Daniil Hunter rushes from. And when we asked Andre Patterson – right, Khalil Mack too. And when we asked Andre Patterson about, hey, would you ever consider moving Daniil Hunter now that Everson Griffin is gone, he laughed at us.

Like, of course not. Are you insane? The guy has the most sacks of anybody since by the age 25 or whatever it was, 50 sacks by age 25. And so he's like, why would I move him? I let him get his sacks over there. And I think that the Vikings do a lot of this. Let's move this guy here. Let's screw around with this guy. And there's a part of me that would hesitate about why would you take if someone who is emerging as a top five player at their position, a very valuable position, and mess with that.

So I guess we will have to wait a long time before we find out whether Brian O'Neill will move because Reef is back. Now the interior, though, Brandon, and I don't want to make you physically sick here, but let's talk about what's going on in the interior, though, Brandon, and I don't want to make you physically sick here, but let's talk about what's going on in the interior. Dakota Dozier, a career backup. Pat Elfline, his third position in three years. Garrett Bradbury with the chance to take a huge step forward and maybe save it all.

But there isn't a lot of reason to look at this interior and get excited. Yeah, I mean, overall, I have this offensive line pegged right now as the 20th overall in the NFL, which is Tier 4. This is definitely a unit that I think Minnesota can win with, but they're going to have to overcome the interior, the deficiencies on the interior, specifically in pass protection. You know, when guys get isolated, specifically in pass protection, you know, when guys get isolated, that's the thing, you know, what we talked about how Kubiak can help reef, all those

things that I talked about in ways he can do that can also kind of translate to the interior as well, and I think that they'll probably be even more needed there. You know, I mean, I like that, the fact that they moved Elfline over to right guard. You know, I think that at Ohio State, that was a position that, you know, aside from center, those were the two that you saw the most success at. Now, that isn't necessarily – I mean, I know it isn't going to fix his technical issues in pass protection, which have kind of fallen apart over the last couple years. You know, so that's not going to fix that necessarily, you know, changes of scenery, you know, could make, you know, marginal differences,

but he's just going to have to, you know, flat out, just get better regardless. Dozier, you know, is a guy I haven't really seen a whole lot of. He doesn't obviously have a lot of playing time in the NFL. So that's kind of a wild card there. So the guard spots are to me at this point, just kind of wild cards that I wouldn't count on being anything more than adequate this season. Now, hopefully we're pleasantly surprised and one of those guys gets above the below average range, But I think below average is what, you know, Minnesota shooting for, honestly, because if they're, that's what I'm, you know, kind of expecting on the high

end of things. And I think if they're below average, and then you have, you know, an average guy at left tackle, a very good guy at right tackle, and maybe an above average guy at center, then that's why I had them at the 20th overall, you know, offensive line, plus the scheme, plus the coaching, I think helps all that as well. But yeah, I mean, Garrett Bradbury, I expect to make a jump this year. I still think when you look at their schedule, like I'm doing right now, I mean, Kenny Clark, DeForest Buckner, Jeffrey Simmons, you know, in the first three weeks of the season, then Grady Jarrett a couple weeks after that, and of course, Akeem Hicks and Kenny Clark multiple times in the year. I mean, those games against those players, there's going to be a lot of losses, you know,

in terms of one-on-one reps and pass protection especially, but the run game maybe a little bit less there as well. That's just going to happen when you're talking about guys like this who are below average, average, above average, best case. When you're going against guys who are very good and elite, these guys are going to get beat. I think we're going to learn a lot, though, in the first three weeks of the season because I think you're going to see a very good or elite interior presence all three of those games. So we'll see really quickly how much better the interior got in this offseason, I think. Okay, last thing for you. What is the impact of having the 20th best line versus, say, the 10th or the 30th or the 1st? I mean, because we're always trying to put these things into baseball does it wins above

replacement, but you could do defensive runs saved in baseball or points expected, that kind of thing. I mean, how much better would it have been if they could have figured out how to improve the interior spots and get a top 10 offensive line at some point in my life? Yeah, so, okay, so my offensive line rankings, I have the lines broken down into tiers. So I have six tiers. Now, I think really the biggest differences are the bottom tier and the top tier. You know, those are going to make the big differences. So the elite or the bottom tier and the top tier. You know, those are going to make the big differences.

So the elite or the bottom feeder tier. I think those two, you can, those are, so the bottom one, you have to win in spite of those offensive lines. And I don't almost say the bottom two tiers, which the fifth tier for me are offensive line liabilities. And that is from the 24th unit down. So what is that, seven units that I think teams are going to have to win in spite of. So that's going to be very difficult. Those seven teams, I would not expect to make the playoffs, for instance. And if so,

they're going to need some kind of dramatic effort from, you know, quarterback, play caller, or, you know, just some remarkable turnaround of the offensive lineman. So I have Minnesota outside of those tiers. And I think everything in the middle are generally offensive lines that teams can win with. And that means that, you know, they're good enough, you know. And then if you want to split it a little bit more, tier four, which is below average offensive lines, which is where I have the 17th ranked unit through the 23rd, that chunk of teams right there. I think you're really going to see those teams struggle the further into the year that they get. As injuries come, as depth is, you know, challenged, and as competition gets tougher,

then that Tier 4 unit is really going to almost come down to, you know, I mean, I think you're almost going to have to win in spite of them at some point in the season. But that's later, you know, especially like playoff time and stuff like that. So that's where I think Minnesota can really get hurt is, you know, if they make the playoffs and then all of a sudden competition is much better, guys are obviously worn down and things like that. Then, you know, I think that's where we could see their offensive line really kind of become a liability at that point. But I think in the regular season, they have enough here, man, to be a really good offense again, for sure. Yeah, I agree with you that when you're talking about number one or number 32,

the gap is just enormous, but maybe 10 versus 20 is not as gigantic and you can win. But where I'll be really interested, Brandon, is just to see if these are the five that are starting if you know assuming that they're healthy or if we end up seeing some changes do we see Dakota Dozier subbed out for Ezra Cleveland if they feel like that's time for him because he's been taking guard reps all the way through training camp and it seems like he's far away now but we saw them do that with Brian O'Neill, start Rashad Hill, wait till the guy is more ready in practice, and then bump him up. And the same thing goes for Pat Elfline and Drew Samia,

that if it is a struggle for Pat Elfline five weeks in, they may say, all right, well, it's Drew Samia's time to pop up into that starting role. So it will be a never-ending conversation, and that is good for us, Brandon, because we always have such fun conversations about the offensive line. So I highly suggest two things. You follow Brandon on Twitter. You can learn a lot at Brandon Thorne NFL, and also check out the Trench Warfare podcast. You talked with Snacks. I am so jealous. You talked with Snacks Harrison. Yeah, man, that was, I was so excited so excited about that, and he didn't disappoint.

I mean, just kind of, you know, through the whole narrative on my narrative on its head about, like, you know, how important studying the individual players is, you know, in the game preparation and during the week. He's like, yeah, man, I never studied really at all. He's like, I just needed to know the scheme, and I kind of figured it out from there he called himself more of a feel guy rather than a film guy and I thought that was really interesting and you know he still obviously watched film with the team and all that kind of stuff but he never really like broke down his opponent in any kind of detail as an individual player is more so what they wanted to do schematically so I thought that that was really interesting. So yeah, he,

he brought a lot of good insight, man. And it was really cool to kind of get a peek into his mind and stuff. And, you know, his journey is really, really unique as well. And the best nickname maybe in NFL history. I mean, other than refrigerator Perry snacks, Harrison is right up there. So make sure you go listen to that great conversation. And I'm really glad that you're continuing in the podcast game. Andrew Perry, Snacks Harrison is right up there. So make sure you go listen to that. Great conversation. And I'm really glad that you're continuing in the podcast game,

despite the fact that now everyone wants you on their podcast, which I have noticed that people are always inviting you on. So that's very cool to see. So make sure you follow Brandon, check out the podcast. And you know what? One thing I can guarantee, very little in 2020 can we guarantee, Brandon. I guarantee you will be back on this show talking offensive line at some point very soon. Awesome, man. Well, thanks for always having me and just supporting me and look forward to talking again, man. I want to remind you to go to

sodastick.com to get your original Minnesota sports-inspired goods. They just launched their official collaboration with Bud Grant. Yes, Bud Grant. You can now get your official Bud Grant shirt and Man Cave art print. If you haven't seen it yet, you have to check it out. And we're going to hook you up with free shipping for your order. Use code PURPLEINSIDER for free shipping. That is SOTASTICK, S-O-T-A-S-T-I-C-K.com, original Minnesota sports-inspired goods, code PURPLEINSIDER for free shipping. Joining me, you generally know him from Football

Outsiders, but Derek Klassen has contributed to our Friends Over It Zone coverage, analyzing the Minnesota Vikings matchup with the Green Bay Packers in week one, and Derek, these are the rules. If you write about the Derek, these are the rules. If you write about the Vikings, you are coming on this show. How are you, sir? I'm doing great, man. And, you know, I'm not going to reveal my plan, but maybe that was my angle there. I write about the Vikings just so I can get back on the show, you know?

That is a good idea, and I appreciate that. I'm flattered that that's the whole reason you would take on additional work just to get on this podcast. So you did a great breakdown of what went wrong last year for the Vikings against the Green Bay Packers, which was a lot. And coincidentally, it starts exactly where the topic of the day is for the Minnesota Vikings, and that is on the offensive line. So it turns out, plot twist, Riley Reif is staying with the Vikings and taking a restructured deal with a pay cut. Now, Reif has not been the world's best left tackle. I think everybody knows that. But his last four games against the Packers, not disaster. In 2018, he had two of his highest-graded games by PFF.

2019, yes, Z'Darrius Smith made him into mincemeat a few times, but he did not give up a sack, at least by pro football focuses tracking. I think that they are much, much better off, at least for week one. Long term might be a different story, but at least for week one, having their starting left tackle going in against the Packers. I mean, I agree for a bunch of reasons. I mean, left tackle in particular is one of those positions where it's like the difference from having a left tackle who's even, I don't know, top 20, top 22,

a decent starter versus having a guy who's maybe the 30th best left tackle in the league is just so dramatic. And I think that's especially true for a quarterback like Kirk Cousins who in some of the pieces that I wrote like Kirk isn't the best at playing under pressure he's actually okay if he's still like on schedule and is just about to get hit he's actually kind of okay taking a hit and making the throw it's just when he has to break the pocket and get creative things go really wrong and so if they were going to have to change up the line a little bit and he was going to have more of those plays where that was going to have to happen, I think not only would it create more of those plays,

but I think it would ruin a little bit of their run into play action structure. And I think that would really hurt Kirk Cousins too, because that's really where he does a lot of his work. So the plan, I totally agree with you on Cousins. And that's why pressure numbers, under pressure numbers are different for each guy. Like Russell Wilson under pressure does different things than Kirk Cousins in certain types of pressure. We'll get Deshaun Watson, but we'll not get Cousins or something like that. So it's worth looking a little bit closer than just, hey, his passer rating wasn't that bad under pressure.

Right, but he also didn't make any additional plays when that happened. And with the Packers, they were able to create so much pass rush from Zedaria Smith and Kenny Clark that it was a major issue. And I thought it was interesting how the Packers approached the bootleg game to begin with, that they were sending their ends upfield a lot at Kirk Cousins and it was almost like he was surprised to see them there like as he's going as he's bootlegging like oh you're here you're not supposed to be here you were supposed to chase the running back and I thought that that was kind of a fascinating twist to the way that Mike Pettin approached playing against the Gary Kubiak offense?

I think it was great. I mean, like you said, whether it was Preston Smith, whether it was Z'Darrius Smith, whether it was – I even remember I think one play Dean Lowry got like a pressure off of it where, yeah, they were just sending the end to just completely bypass whatever was going to go on in the flat and just have them run straight to Cousins. And I think against a quarterback, like we both said, against Cousins, who isn't that great athletically and isn't very good at being creative, I think that's honestly the way to handle them. And I think in particular with the Packers, especially their defense last year, where they were playing so much dime, had so many, you know, speed guys on the field with all their DBs. I think you can kind of get away with giving

up that space in the flat for a split second when you have that much speed to kind of recover. So I think it was a perfect plan for them, and it really worked out well, and I'm pretty interested to see if they go back to it next year. So kind of sticking with the offensive line against the Packers defensive line, Kenny Clark is the greatest test for whether Garrett Bradbury has actually gotten better or not. My guess is that Bradbury will improve, but how much that improvement comes will I think see right away.

Last year, Kenny Clark was picking him up and walking him right back to either Kirk Cousins or running backs or just going around him. I mean, Clark is one of the elite players in the league. We've seen it enough, no matter who the Vikings have at center, but it especially exposed Garrett Bradbury as a rookie last year. And I think this goes under the key matchup of the game. If we were doing one of those like pregame graphics matchups of the game, like Bradbury versus Clark might determine this thing. I think absolutely. I mean, after that clear tier of,

you know, Aaron Donald, that defensive tackle, I think Clark is right up there with whatever that next, you know, three, four or five guys or whatever it is. And so I think you're absolutely right that it's going to be a perfect test for him. I think even more than that, I think the Packers are a great test for Bradbury, like the front overall, because they do some pretty creative stuff up front. And I think Zedaria Smith is perfect for that. He's like a really good battering ram type player where they can just line him up over a center, over the B gap in the standup position. And he will just like, it's so hard for a player like him

who's heavy enough to deal with those guards, but is still slippery enough to where he feels like an end. And so I think the Packers mixing and matching and doing a lot of creative stuff with Zedaria Smith, Kenny Clark, Dean Lowry, all those guys up front. I think especially for a young interior guy, that can be a lot to put up with. And so I think him handling Clark on a physical level is going to be really interesting,

and also just kind of seeing how he handles a lot of the games up front because Green Bay is pretty, pretty good at those. Yeah, Zedaria being a move-around type of player, I don't know. I mean, is this something that is new in the NFL to you? Because I think that there have always been guys who did this to some extent, but to have players who they really don't have an assigned position on the defensive line. I mean, sometimes I thought that Zedarrius Smith was a straight-up

defensive tackle. Like you said, he lined up at the nose tackle on one play where he smoked Garrett Bradbury. Having somebody like that, I think it totally changes what you have to do as an offensive line, and this goes to the importance that they did not cut Riley Reif to have the same five guys who have played together before last year, who practiced together all of whatever truncated offseason they've been able to have. If you're throwing in Brian O'Neal at a new position at left tackle, everything looks different from there. It's not just, hey, are you athletic enough to block this guy or that guy, but it's also your eyes are completely trained differently,

and here's Zedaria Smith walking around and lining up at different spots every play. I really think a player like him is a unicorn. I mean, there's a couple of those guys who can kind of do it, and I think Baltimore in particular is a team who's always had that kind of guy. Pernell McPhee was that guy for a while, and then it became Z'Darrius Smith, and now Z'Darrius Smith is obviously in Green Bay, but I think those guys who are like in that 270-ish range and can be a stand-up edge player as well as you just like it's a rush down and you put him at three tech like a guy who can so seamlessly do that I think is is really really hard to find and I think Green Bay with as multiple as their defense already was I think it was just such a brilliant signing to go after him. And so I think, one, it's just really hard to find those guys.

So I don't even think it's like a trend that other teams can follow because just getting a guy who is so good at all those things is so tough. And honestly, just finding a guy who's as strong as Zedarius Smith is because he literally can pick you up. I mean, it happened to Bradbury. He can pick you up like he's Kenny Clark, except he's also like could bend like a pass rusher. It's insane. So finding those guys is just, I think, really hard. And like I said, I think he was already just such a great fit for

what they do. I doubt Mike Zimmer has any regrets about how he used Everson Griffin because he was so good over the last few years. But Z'Darrius reminds me of Everson Griffin, that same sort of not the tallest or lankiest guy in the world, but so powerful and so quick and so smart. Also, just has so many different types of moves that they can use. I wonder if Zimmer were to do it again, if he would move Griffin around a lot more. I mean, he's always done that with defensive ends on third down situations, but they'll do it with Z'Darrius Smith whenever. So the key, it sounds funny because it's 2020, Derek, but it's running the football. I mean, we saw this from the 49ers, but they were not the only team. The Vikings in week two ran the heck over the Packers and big plays for Delvin Cook. And if Cousins does not throw an interception on the

final drive, they win on that drive of only handoffs. In fact, in the press box, you can imagine, we were like, why are you bothering to pass? You're running over them right into the end zone, and instead, you throw a pick, but I think that's what this comes down to for the Vikings offense, is whether you can make the Packers pay with your run game. Absolutely, and like you said, when they had all their healthy backs in that first meeting, I think it was week two last year, it was really working out for them. I think they had a pretty good run game for the most part. And I think it's kind of hard to see how it's going to go this next year

because Green Bay's linebacker core has completely changed. But at the same time, it's not like they picked up guys who are going to be surefire great. Like they got Christian Kirksey, who was okay from the Browns. I don't even remember the name of their other starting linebacker, which kind of just goes to show where they're at right now. But last year they had Blake Martinez, who I think is just – I literally cannot believe he's getting paid $10 million a year by the Giants.

I guess because it's the Giants, it makes a little bit of sense. But I just – I don't think he's very good. And I think that the Vikings did a great job of exposing him. And then they had BJ Goodson, who I think is just absolutely not a starting quality linebacker. So if they can get some decent play next year, it might be okay. What kind of dog do you have? Well, the big one that was out there is he's a little bit of a mutt.

He's a boxer. And then the smaller one he now wants out of my room is I don't know, actually. I don't remember. Oh, okay. So did you adopt these dogs? You're going to have to let the dog out here. Play-by-play of Derek letting his dog out of the door. So did you adopt these dogs?

Yes. The smaller one is, oh, God, she's old now, probably 9 or 10. The bigger, louder one is only about 2 or 3. Well, I have a greyhound, and I always like to say whenever dogs come up, adopt greyhounds. They're great. And they need homes because they're racers and then they retire. Anyway, so there's your PSA in the middle of the podcast, adopt dogs because they're the best.

So I want to get to the Packers offense that actually, aside from the first quarter of the first game they played, struggled against the Vikings defense because Rodgers is just super washed and he's not good now. That's exactly why. Expand. Expand on my comments, Derek. So I actually think a big part of Green Bay's issues last year,

I think this was true not even in just the Vikings game, I think it was true in a lot of their games, is like in the first quarter's first half of games when it was a lot easier for them to have things scripted out and to lean on their run game into play action play action back into run game all that sort of mixing stuff I think it was a lot easier for them to put an offense together because I do think LeFleur is fairly smart and it was easier for them to structure the offense because LeFleur could kind of cook up some stuff and get some guys open things started offense because LeFleur could kind of

cook up some stuff and get some guys open. Things started to devolve when they had to kind of start calling plays on the fly, turn a little bit more towards shotgun. And I think a lot of that has to do with just like, they don't have pass catching talent. Like it's Devontae Adams and that's it. And I don't think they even addressed that this off season, which is really frustrating.

So it's kind of hard to see things changing because it's really still just Devontae Adams. And if that's all that you have in the pass game, like, I think Aaron Rodgers being washed is a little bit overstated. But I think it's true to some extent. And so if Rodgers isn't the god that he was, you know, at Patrick Mahomes' level, and you only have one real pass-catching threat. And the way that they indexed the offense this season, this offseason, it's like all to run the ball and stuff. So it's not like they even tried to make the passing game better. So I think a lot of the struggles that we saw last year where they really stopped getting stuff going when they couldn't do the run game and the play

action stuff and baiting the Vikings out of their two high shells and stuff, like if they can't do that at all next year it's gonna look pretty bleak I think and that's where it's going to be very interesting Derek is when it comes to whether teams can run the ball against the Vikings even wash Linval Joseph and injured Linval Joseph was still a monster and one of the strongest players in the league I think he was still a very effective run defender. It was just that he couldn't really get penetration the way that he used to and make big plays the way that he did in 2017.

But still, if you were running it right up the middle at Lindvall Joseph, you were going to have problems even through last year. Now we're talking about Shamar Stephan and Jaleel Johnson, two guys that have switched positions from where they were last year, two guys that are not really considered starting level players in the league. And as much as they like Shamar Stephan, they signed somebody else at that position in Michael Pierce who opted out. This is where I would be concerned with them. Rodgers always scares you because he's Rodgers and he can make big plays that wow you and change games. But if

they're committed to running the ball and now you are all of a sudden worse at it, and there's another element of this too, the Vikings have had great tackling corners in the past. I mean, Xavier Rhodes, even again, when washed, one of the better run defenders in the NFL, Trey Waynes was always an underrated tackler. Mackenzie Alexander could do it. Now you might have two rookies on the field at once, and you don't know how well they can tackle. So I think, again, on this side of the ball, we're going to be talking about, hey, the key for the Packers is running. It's like running against and running for because we're in 1991.

You know, that's actually a great point. I think, I mean, even in a lot of the games last year, the Packers still did a fairly good job of running the ball against the Vikings, even from out of shotgun formations, which I think the Packers were a little bit more up and down when they were turning the offense completely into shotgun stuff. I think especially in the second game against the Vikings, that was true. But they still found success running the ball from a lot of those formations.

So if the line is a little bit worse up front, maybe that is all that they have to do against the Vikings. I think a lot of that is going to depend on how much better the Vikings offense can play against this Packers defense, because I do think the Packers a little bit in those matchups last year had the luxury of not necessarily needing to force a super pass heavy like aggressive offense because the Vikings offense wasn't putting up enough points to make them do that so maybe things change and the Packers just don't even get the opportunity to run as much early and do that but I think that's a good point is that if the Vikings up front are not as clean especially between the tackles where I think the Packers actually have a really good inside trio.

I think that could be a huge problem for them, even for as good at sifting through traffic as the Vikings linebackers can be. Get back to the conversation in just a minute. But first, you've always counted on restaurants, and now they're counting on you. And while their dining rooms may be closed, they're still open for delivery with door dash door dash is the app that brings you the food you're craving right to your door ordering is

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blue wire, don't forget that's code blue wire for $5 off your first order with door dash Sunday, Sunday Sundays are coming back in the NFL with NFL Sunday ticket. Dot TV. You can stream every live out of market NFL NFL game every Sunday afternoon on your favorite devices, plus Red Zone and DirecTV Fantasy Zone channels. Never miss your favorite team and favorite players.

No matter where you live, NFLSundayTicket.tv is your key to the most glorious Sundays ever. Use the promo code BLUEWIRE at checkout to get 15% off your subscription. Visit NFLSundayTicket.tv and use promo code BlueWire. Now, I have one more question for you on this game, and then I have a game for you. Yannick Ngakwe, how does he change things from where you would have projected it before?

Even when you were going back and writing your article, you would have been watching Everson Griffin. I think Everson is a very different player from Ngakwe, where Ngakwe, he reminds me of a guy that the Pittsburgh Steelers would have had an outside linebacker when they played 3-4 back in the day. Like he's just really athletic and whip around the edge. You know, they're Greg Lloyd or Kevin Green for the older folk. But not a guy that I would have necessarily pegged based on his size

as a every-down, 3-4 defensive end. I think that's going to be a pretty big change for Mike Zimmer in dealing with a guy who obviously can be a game wrecker. I think in particular against the Packers, it might actually be, I mean, calling it a net negative from Griffin is like wrong, because I think Yannick Ngakwe is still a great player, and he's going to get pressure on some of those plays. But like, if any team, especially in that division, is equipped to handle two great defensive ends, it's going to be the Packers with the tackles that they have. And then at the same time, Ngakwe is not a good run defender. I mean, he's not even really interested in doing it. And so if the, you know, the win condition

for the Packers in these games in particular is going to be running the ball, it might be trying to run the ball towards Ngakwe because he's just not very good at it. He's, you know, kind of like you mentioned, a little bit of a skinnier guy. He's really more of a pass rush specialist than anything. And so I don't really think that was the case with Griffin. And so having that switch there is for sure going to hurt the Vikings, I think, in the run game against the Packers. Maybe he can make out for it in the pass game. But like I said, if any pair of tackles in this division is equipped to put up with it, I think it's going to be them. Well, definitely not anywhere close in terms of Ngakwe to Everson when it comes to defending

the run. I mean, this is where I've said it before on the show, so people have heard it, but I just think that Griffin does not get quite the credit he deserves, and he is a pro bowler, for the number of snaps that he plays. There are very few defensive ends in the NFL today who play 90% of the snaps when they're healthy or 100% of the snaps at times. And we would be asking Mike Zimmer, like, do you want to give Everson Griffin a break or get some rotational rushers in there? And he was just out there all the time, every situation, whether it's goal line third and one or whether it's third and

10, he was out there and that was immensely valuable to them so that's going to be uh i think hard to replace and it will in my mind results in a rotation now here's the game that i want you to play i am going to ask you questions and you have to tell me vikings or packers in terms of the answer okay uh which i'll start basic and we'll move to more strange. Which of these teams wins the division, Vikings or Packers? Oh, man. I think I actually trust the stability of what the Vikings have right now. I don't know. The cornerback situation is a little bit tricky. I think the division as a whole is such a toss-up. You know what? I'll just go Packers and keep it simple. Okay. I can buy. I think both teams, if you're betting

in Vegas, are probably not teams you want to necessarily bet for that. Right. They're both rated as being right up there one and two. But you could see these two. I don't want to bet any team in that division. Yeah. I think, though, if you're betting a team in that division, it's Detroit,

because I think their over-under is six and a half. Oh, wow. Matt Stafford, if he just plays the whole year, they'll get seven, I think, based on the talent that they have. But it's not Vikings, Packers, Lions. It's Vikings, Packers. Which team's number one receiver gets more targets, the Vikings or Packers? I would actually have to think it's going to be the Vikings just because I think the Packers are going to start turning a lot more towards

like heavier formations, kind of the way that the Vikings already do. But I think the Vikings, even with some of their newer, younger talent at receiver, have more than the Packers have at receiver. If you were to pick one quarterback of the Vikings or Packers to win a game for $1 million, are you taking Wash Rogers, the Packers quarterback, or Kirk Cousins, the Vikings quarterback? I will still take the washed version of Aaron Rogers. I think I have to until everything in his career has fully run its course. I think I still have to.

Okay. Would you rather pay a lot of money to the Vikings star running back or the Packers star running back? If you had to, if I said, look, here's 15 mil, you have to give it to a running back, is it Dalvin Cook or Aaron Jones? I do think Aaron Jones is underrated and a fantastic back, but I do think Dalvin Cook is kind of just a better version of him. So I would, I would go with cook. If you had to wear one team's uniform for an entire month, everywhere you went and did everything in that uniform, which one would it be?

Would it be full Packers gear or full Vikings gear? You know what? I'm a big fan of the color purple in general. So I think I would actually have to go with the Vikings on this one. Well, you know, you could sell it as a, being a huge Prince fan as well true if you're and anytime you're behind Prince you're in good shape yeah the Packers won um and but that's what I like about both is that

they're old school and they pop it's not like oh here's dark blue we're the Titans how could you wear that how could you buy that I mean I'm not even a jersey person at all, but it's like, oh, another sports team with dark blue. Congratulations for that. So anyway, I think that you're in, sorry Vikings fans, but you're in good shape with either one. It's their legendary jerseys. All right. Which one of these teams is more likely to rank in the top 10 on defense? I actually think it might be the Packers because I don't think in any position they really got worse on defense. And so a lot of the stability I think they're going to have is nice and they might have upgraded at linebacker, which is good.

And they're having some younger players develop in the secondary, hopefully, whereas the Vikings might have lost a little bit of stuff. So even if they were better last year, I think the Packers have a slightly better chance of cracking top ten. All right. And which coach is more likely within the next two years, because Zimmer just got a contract extension, so probably not this year,

within the next two years to be on your TV on ESPN, NFL Live, or NFL Network, with is blank on the hot seat? Which team's coach has more likely of a chance to be on the hot seat within the next two years? I would actually say the Packers because I think it's, at least from what I've seen of both of them in their careers so far, and LeFleur's young in his career, so maybe this is unfair, but I have a lot more faith in Zimmer making sure that the Vikings' defense

doesn't completely sink, which is obviously his specialty, and keeping good coaches on offense for him, whereas for LeFleur, I don't know if I necessarily trust him to salvage the offense or keep it afloat as well as he needs to if things start crumbling a little bit. So I think it's more likely we see LaFleur on a little bit of a hot seat thing, especially if in a year from now it seems like Jordan Love is not ready at all. I think that would be especially bad for him. Okay, that's all I have.

You got any for me? I do not off the top of my head. I don't think I have any. Okay, well, I wrote them down. Have you got any for me? I do not off the top of my head. I don't think I have any. Okay. Well, I wrote them down. So, well, Derek, it's always great to catch up with you. I hope that you get the opportunity to write more Vikings so we can come on and break stuff down because this was super fun.

Are you excited, man? I mean, it's been such a long journey to get to football that I am bursting at the seams. It's just been weird because, you know, usually, I mean, preseason football sucks, but it at least, like, kind of lets you ramp up into being excited. And by week three of preseason, you're like, hell, yeah, but this just feels like I'm excited, but it's just so weird that all of a sudden it's just going to be boom.

Oh, okay, we have NFL again. So definitely excited, just a very, as all things are right now, very unique feeling. Yeah, I just, you know, need something semi-normal in my life. The other day we went through what media is going to have to do each game, which is get our temperatures taken and go up like a back stairway where there isn't going to be anybody who makes contact with the players. And that's super weird. And I guess I know more about U.S. Bank Stadium than I did before when I got lost. But, you know, but once we got up there and sat in the press box and you're in the stadium and it's like, OK, it's football.

And even though I have this mask on, it's like somewhat normal, and you don't feel like the entire world is collapsing around you. So that will be very nice. Well, I highly suggest that you all follow Derek on Twitter. He has a great Twitter name, QB Class, which is K-L-A-S-S. Don't ever change that. And check out that article at Zone Coverage. I'm very glad that they reached out to you and got you to write a little for them. So good stuff, man. We'll do it again soon. Absolutely. I will very glad that they reached out to you and got you to write a little for them. So good stuff, man.

We'll do it again soon. Absolutely. I will be writing more Vikings in the future, so I think we'll definitely have to. Excellent. Hi, my name is Bobby Peters, and I've recently written a book titled The 2017 New England Patriots Pass Game Manual. If you've ever wondered what makes the New England Patriots offense, specifically their pass game, so successful over the years,

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