Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Should Jalen Reagor be used more? Is Harrison Smith a Hall of Famer?

Episode Date: December 9, 2022

Matthew Coller and Will Ragatz get together to talk about the hot topics surrounding the Vikings, from whether Jalen Reagor needs some more playing time as a bit player in the offense and if Harrison Smith has made a Hall of Fame case. Plus, why the Lions are favored and a game of Motown singer vs. '08 Lion. -- Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Purple Insider is presented by Liquid Death, delicious water that's bringing death to plastic. Learn more at liquiddeath.com slash insider. Hello, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here and Will Regetts from Sports Illustrated along with me. And I got to tell you, we just came from a Matt Daniels press conference. And before this, I tackled Will to the ground. So we're ready to go. We're hyped for this after listening to Matt Daniels.

I have to say, Will, in my entire career, I have never experienced press conferences like those of Vikings special teams coordinator Matt Daniels. They are intense, so intense that at the end he talked about how there's a bunch of killers out there on special teams and you have to be really tough and courageous to play special teams in the NFL. And I'm just like, all right, football, let's go. It's the best part of every single week that we get to kind of do this

and cover this team is hearing from Matt Daniels. And he's just so fun to listen to. He's super engaged, and you can tell he's really, really passionate about special teams. And then once, at least once every press conference, he is going to come out of left field with some wild analogy or metaphor or just straight up say something outlandish. And it's awesome. I love it.

I hope he becomes a head coach someday and everyone will get to kind of – the national public will get to discover how great he is. Kind of like the Mike McDaniel thing. Like I'm sure the 49ers people knew that he was an interesting quote and kind of a weird quirky guy and now everyone's getting to experience it while he's a head coach so I hope Matt Daniels becomes a head coach someday because he seems like he's also just a genuinely really good dude well yeah I mean the way that he connects with his players and he was talking about that today and that's the thing about his press conferences they're not just like a laugh fest I mean they're often really interesting but then he mixes in something that you never see coming like well his jalen rager commentary i want to talk about that actually but of course early in

the year when he called them cocky built and talked about his haunches or something yeah it was very weird uh and then even he made a dating analogy last week with kenny wong that was like i don't know if you quite thought that one over before you went with it but i do think the way he's coached them and the way that he carries himself and the way that he has galvanized players and gotten the head coach to wear the special teams hat and all those sorts of things he has a head coach vibe to him that you just kind of know when you see and i don't know after one year of doing special teams if he's going to get interviews and conversations with that but this is a guy that down the road

you could see that for sure um with matt daniels and like went to duke very very bright guy uh former guest of the show of course which you know adds to his own cachet doesn't help me just him but um i do want to talk about though the jay the jaylen ranger angle because i asked kevin o'connell early in the week like hey uh you know what do you think of the way that jaylen rager is sort of uh you know taking on the offense whatever because he had two decent plays i mean one was a big play 38 yarder and then his uh you know the what the end around or whatever was it jet jet sweep? If we want to be technical. I mean, he showed some real quickness and explosiveness, but he also never plays. I mean,

he had two snaps in the game. He got the ball both times. I believe he had one snap in the Patriots game and got the ball that time. And he's made plays for them. When you look at KJ Osborne's yards per catch, he is the fourth lowest in the entire NFL for guys that actually get targets for his yards per catch. Like, at some point, should we be talking about trying to get Jalen Rager to play, like, 15 snaps instead of two? Yeah, I've been kind of on that train for a few weeks now,

and you're right, though. I just pulled up his PFF. And there are two games where the Vikings were getting killed. I mean, the only two losses they have, Philly and Dallas, he played 10 and 12 snaps, came in in garbage time. But outside of that, it's 1-3-3, 1-4-2-2-2. Like, he just doesn't play very much. But when he does, he seems to get the ball quite a bit and do things with it.

And you look at the next-gen bit and and do things with it and you look at the next gen stats and like their their ball carrier tracking data he's like the fastest player on the Vikings offense I mean Dalvin Cook when he really gets going to top speed is right up there as well I mean if we ever got to see Kanae Wongu he's up there as well but Jalen Rager like Wes Phillips said it this morning there's a reason you can see why he was a first round pick and it didn't work out in Philly for various reasons but just pure athleticism wise the twitchiness he has the fluidity with which he moves the acceleration that he has to get to top speed really quickly I just see like if he can kind of continue mastering this playbook and being versatile and being able to kind of line up as the X, as the Z, the Y, whatever,

and make plays out of that, I don't see why you wouldn't get him more involved. And the counter to that is, yes, K.J. Osborne's yards per route run is like.7, or it's something dreadful, but it's not really his role to be a top target in the passing game. That's going to be Jefferson,erson thielen hockinson and then maybe osborne has the fourth or even fifth option behind like your running back or even johnny munt and so what he does really well is he's a good run blocker and they can kind of when they're in their base 11 personnel they can almost kind of be like like they're in 12 personnel because he can almost act as a second tight end with his blocking ability. And so that's valuable.

I don't think KJ Osborne by any means is going to be phased out of the offense because of that. But you can do both. You can have KJ Osborne out there a lot, and you can play Jalen Rager for 13 snaps instead of two. So I would like to see them do that more. Is it really true that he's a good run blocker? Like, I don't know. I'm going to look it up, and I have a feeling what we're going to see. I think the PFF is going to say is not going to jump out,

and he's going to – I think I've looked at that, and he's like – it's probably like a 60 or something. But I think – and maybe this is anecdotally, but when I'm like skimming through the film each week, there seems to always be a play that jumps out where he's looking good as a run blocker. And I don't know what that means on a down-to-down basis but the coaches also Kevin O'Connell, Wes Phillips they've praised him for that

I think like just based on the way he's built and some of the things that have shown up I think he's a good run blocker I don't know the question might be is that worth like one of the least efficient pass catching targets in the entire league going by pff receiving grade and by yards per route run and all those things and so i think there's absolutely a scenario where you cut down on kj osborne snaps a little bit you get jalen rager more involved because he's just such a dynamic player well my computer's plugged into the recorder so i don't want to like turn around my computer to show you the big reveal of where he ranks in run blocking but i'll just maybe you can look at over there just kind of lean your head around oh yeah that's second to last in the nfl and run blocking

um it's just funny how these things sort of become i think this becomes a whole there's a whole debate here a larger thing though is like do we just inherently trust pff yes yes when it comes when it comes to blocking and them grading every receiver's blocking on every play yeah i do i mean i would say so now i mean that doesn't mean that like he has harder assignments and you can use your common sense. So, yes, if you're saying, like, this guy has harder assignments and whatever. But Cooper Cup is the seventh best blocker this year by PFF. So, well, let me. Where are Jefferson and Thielen on there?

In the middle of the pack. Actually, you know what? I sorted it a little bit wrong. I sorted it a little bit wrong. He's actually 36 out of 53. Okay. So I had that sorted wrong but uh still like below average and cooper cup is sort of toward the top of the league

so i mean at least by that perspective it it passes like the the smell tests of like where you you should rank i mean what it's saying is my whole point is not to say that like kj osborne is actually trash when it comes to blocking. It's really to say because his grade is just a little like below average. Yeah. It's just to say that coaches sometimes get these things in their head. This guy's a great blocker. So we need to have him do this.

Kind of reminds me of like Dakota Dozier is a better run blocker than Brett Jones. So he should be playing out there. But really, the numbers showed us that Dakota Dozier wasn't good at run blocking either. And they might argue like, oh, well, he has more mobility so he can reach this block. But if he's not doing it effectively, it doesn't really matter. And I guess my point is that K.J. Osborne's blocking is not at the top of the NFL. It's not like he is Cooper Cup. It's not like he's dominating this

run blocking. So if he's averaging seven yards a catch and is not getting targeted and cousins is throwing interceptions when he looks his way, I use Jalen Rager. That was the point. It's not to like trash his run blocking. It's just to say that the objective measure that looks at every single receivers run blocking tells us that it's just not exceptional and you know justin jefferson grades a lot higher actually he grades is the 10th best on this so and and theelin is more toward the middle of the league so you know i guess i'm just saying that this guy is more explosive in jalen regger 100 he can run end rounds he can run quick screens and apparently you could throw it down the field to him every once in a while I think they should be doing it that was just a very roundabout way of no and I

completely agree and it's like you look at that that 38 yard catch that he had and you can see I mean the way he kind of flipped his hips to get the safety to to turn one way he got super open if Kirk wasn't being like crushed while he threw it and steps in and puts that ball 60 yards downfield, that might have been a walk-in touchdown. You can see just the dynamic that Jalen Rager brings to the table. I guess it's one of those questions where we ask ourselves, do we trust the coaching staff here? Because there must be a reason in their mind obviously why why KJ Osborne is on the field and I don't think it's to be this this unbelievable separator or route runner or whatever I think it's because they like what he does as a run blocker I think it's because

they like his knowledge of the scheme and he's generally not going to like mess up and Kevin O'Connell has kind of alluded to this with Jalen Rager is yes he's been here for a while now they traded for him before the season started kind of on cut day but he still didn't have the whole spring the whole summer the whole install thing Wes Phillips talked about it like there are things in this offense that aren't anywhere on a playbook they're not like written down somewhere It's just the little things that have to be coached in terms of your split on this play, your alignment here, the way you run certain route. Like there's things that just have to be coached and he hasn't had that for the same amount of time as somebody like KJ Osborne has. But more and more that's becoming less of an excuse because

he's been here for a long time and he's at this point he should know the entire playbook really well so yeah i am in complete agreement get jalen rager on the field more often because good things have happened so far when he's been out there is that hinting to us he doesn't really get it with some of the details it could be it could be which i think which i think is fair and i buy into that in a lot of ways when it comes to average players so when we were having that conversation of hey should it be bc johnson or amir smith marsette many lifetimes ago in training camp yeah it's like no folks they're gonna go with bc johnson because he really gets the details of this offense and you can see it in practice and the way that they talk about bc versus amir smith marsette and the talent gap they talk about BC versus Amir Smith-Marset.

And the talent gap is not that different. One was a seventh rounder. One was a fifth rounder. But Jalen Rager has first round explosiveness. And this is reminding me a little bit of one Cordero Patterson. And I know Cordero is an all-timer when it comes to having the ball in his hands. But if Jalen Rager, who is also a first round pick because of this very skill can do some of the same things what was the reason that they wouldn't put Cordero out there same deal it was well you know he can't get the route details and there's a lot of things he

doesn't quite get and everything else like I I understand that and I'm sympathetic to that only if the guy isn't really special and even when you see him I mean and Wes Phillips talked about this like when you saw him on that Roquan Smith play earlier against the Bears it was just freakish it was just like the matrix with him dodging the tackle and if you have that on an offense that's what 11th in the league and is just kind of okay and has this nature of sputtering from time to time and hasn't really generated any explosive plays that don't end up in the hands of number 18. Right, right.

You need to be looking for every possible option. I think that two snaps probably isn't enough when you have somebody out there who you're playing to be a tight end. And when it comes, I mean, KJ Osborne, I mean, his yards per target is that of a backup tight end. Yeah. That is not what you expected from him so that's something that i'd like to see them start to do as we kind of search for where's

the areas they can improve and you can and you can play him more like when he plays two snaps a game and touches it both times that's cool that's a little gadgety thing but play him 10 to 15 snaps and have him touch the ball sometimes but then also have his gravity like have him be a decoy have him go in motion like he's going to do an end around that can shift the linebackers and then give it to Dalvin Cook going the other way or play action pass off of that or have him run a deep route and clear out a safety for Jefferson or Thielen on an intermediate like crossing route like there are all kinds of things that they can do and I mean I'm gonna believe Kevin O'Connell when he maybe hints that Rager isn't all the way there like you said in terms

of just knowing enough to be out there as like a 15-20 snap player but it's December it's time and especially in these games coming up Lions, Colts, Giants I mean it's the Bears at the end of the season who are terrible like get Jalen Rager out there more often and test him. See if he can do what you ask him to do and run it correctly and do what you need him to do on any given play. And then if he can, use him in the playoffs because he's just one of the best athletes on the team in terms of raw athleticism, change of direction ability,

top speed speed all those things uh let me throw another hot topic out for you okay before we get into you know the lions and how they match everybody knows the lions by now so this is something that's just been on my mind and uh ed donatel talked about this today quite a bit about harrison smith and what it's been like to coach harrison smith now personally i I think that the Jets game was Harrison's best game where he made like a lot of splash plays, just even beyond the interception, but just past breakups. When I initially saw it live, I thought, oh, I can't believe Garrett Wilson

didn't catch that ball over the middle. But looking back at the tape, like Harrison Smith made this unbelievable play where he just kind of turned the opposite direction and got to the spot where he knew the ball was coming you referenced the way that he shot through a gap at the goal line and made a play I also included that in my look back at the film for this week because it was just like one of those total field plays where you know like I don't even think they told him to line up there and Donatello confirmed that that they didn't tell him necessarily to line up there basically you just find a spot and you run at the running back uh you know and figure it out from there and he

said that they allow harrison smith to do a lot of just scanning and figuring it out but here's the hot topic we all know harrison's good everyone likes him uh do you think he's a hall of famer I do and I am probably biased because I've watched him play football for his entire career and I think I don't want to be like the classic Minnesotan like oh nobody nobody watches the Vikings play if Harrison Smith was on the Cowboys he would they would have his gold jacket fitted already. Like, some of that is probably true, but I just think the versatility, the production is there. If you go the X amount of players who have had, he now has 34 interceptions. I believe he has 16 and a half sacks. Players who have both of those, they're basically all in the Hall of Fame.

One of them was Leroy Butler, who just got into the Hall of Fame recently. Like, he's got almost like Polamalu numbers, and just what he's done, I think the length of time with which he's been one of the best safeties in the league is really impressive. Like, he came into the league in 2012 as a first-round pick, and pretty much right away was a really, really great safety. and then kind of had his peak years 2015-2017 around then and now he's what 32-33 something like that and he's still one of the best safeties in the league in terms of and he's using the experience now more than than just the kind of athleticism that he started out with and I think he's a great player I think he really changes what you can do defensively and Ed Ed Donatello talked about that, like having a player with that much knowledge and that much kind of intelligence and anticipation,

he can just let him go freelance out there to some degree and figure things out on his own and scan and make plays. And I think it's so valuable. And the big thing is, I think if he retired after this season, there'd be a big debate. I think he's got another two or three years of being a really good safety. He could get to 40-plus interceptions, and I think the stats at the end of the day matter a lot, maybe more than they should than the actual watch the tape. But I think he's going to get the stats, so I think that'll help his case. Folks, it is time once again for us to have a discussion about liquid death.

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well, especially the lime flavored sparkling water, which is very good. So make sure you give that a try. Go to Hy-Vee, Target, wherever you get your groceries, go to the water aisle, look for the can that looks actually like a tall boy beer. And if you want to learn more about where to find it, go to liquiddeath.com slash insider. That's liquiddeath.com slash insider. I think that he does have a decent case at this moment. The Hall of Fame monitor by pro football reference is not as impressed as we are. They list him as comparable to, and I'll try to get some 2000s names for you. There's a lot of 90s names that people will recognize.

Like Terry McDaniel was a guy who was around for a long time, made five Pro Bowls in nine years. Harrison Smith has made six. That guy wasn't really anywhere near and got a lot of interceptions. Very similar to Harrison Smith, like almost identical and wasn't really anywhere near that conversation. You remember Adrian Wilson who played for Arizona? I mean, these are great players. We're only talking great players here. But Adrian Wilson is another comparable who is not somebody that was going to make the Hall of Fame. Merton Hanks. Devin McCourty also has a similar type of grade here. Rodney Harrison.

I mean, he's probably a Rodney Harrison type player. Is Rodney Harrison not in the Hall of Fame? No, he is not. Is he going to make it? Like, I don't know. I mean, he's kind of a borderline. So I think that he probably does end up borderline. But when you look at the standard for defensive backs to make the Hall of Fame,

which is really what the Hall of Fame monitor does, kind of looks at what are the similarities between, you know, all these players and then how did they make it, a lot of times it's multiple All-Pros is what you really need. He only has one, the 2017 first-team All-Pro. Although, okay, in 2018 he was second-team, but he only has the one first-team All-Pro compared to, like, Patrick Peterson has three.

Right. So, like, Patrick Peterson we both probably think is going to be a Hall of Famer. First ballot, yeah. I think he's going right in. I mean, he was – like, was Harrison Smith for more than maybe just 2017 ever like the best safety in the league I don't know Patrick Peterson for six years was the best cornerback in the league I think what Harrison Smith has going for him at least like in the eyes of all observers is that he's like a baseball player who hits 300 every year yeah he only 2017 would be the year that he's like a baseball player who hits 300 every year. Yeah.

He only 2017 would be the year that he hit 40 home runs. All the rest of the time, he hits like 20 home runs. So is he Joe Maurer? He's no, because Joe Maurer is one of the greatest catchers ever. But like his career was shortened a little bit. I think Maurer is an easy Hall of Famer personally, but I don't know. Maybe they're biased as well, but I think so, too. Maybe there will be. I was just saying like 2009 was the one year where joe mauer hit 28 homers and other than that he never hit more than like 10 so right yeah no exactly but that's exactly

right but even like even with harrison like even the um like the like joe mauer would win batting titles or compete for batting titles and it's always it's always except for 2017 been just like very very very good and very very very consistent but I don't know that it's risen to the level of a lot of the guys that end up in the hall of fame I think he might be deserving but usually you have to be that guy for this position specifically it's like quarterbacks it's you get in like receivers. There's almost too many. So they're always putting these guys in defensive backs as Leroy Butler shows you, who is one of the all-time greats. It just is hard. It took him a while. Right. Right.

And, and should it like, probably not, but Ed Reed had five all pros. Rod Woodson had six Dion Sanders had six. Like that's, that's pretty hard to match. Rod Woodson had six. Deion Sanders had six. Like that's, that's pretty hard to match. Charles Woodson had three. Um, Troy Palomaro had four all pros. Like those are kind of the level that you have to be in. And these are, these are first team all pros that you're talking about. Yeah. First team, right. First team, all pros. And, uh, Leroy Butler had four. Um, and that is often the way that it's kind of done. I think that there should be more guys in there, but that might hold him back when they look at it. I think that a couple of more years of playing at this same level and he has a really good case, but I don't know with that position,

if they're going to do it. Yeah. And I think he has a chance this year and already has done this to some degree to really help himself. Yeah. Because a lot of times MVP awards, Hall of Fame, Pro Bowl, all these things are kind of narrative based. And guess what? Right now the Vikings are 10-2 on pace to maybe have the most wins they've ever had during Harrison Smith's career, which is 13 in 2017. And so if he can get to like – he has five interceptions already, ties his career high. If you can get another couple interceptions down the stretch here, the Vikings go, let's say 14 and three or 13 and four or something like that. And then maybe Harrison Smith gets a big pick in the playoffs when they win a playoff game.

Maybe they go to the freaking Super Bowl. Like that would really, I think, help from a visibility perspective. Everybody's like, hey, I think, help from a visibility perspective. Everybody's like, hey, I'm just watching Harrison Smith now. And it made me think, this guy's been really good for a decade. And I think those kind of things can stick in voters' heads years later. So I think as of right now, Harrison Smith would not get in. And you have just convinced me more than I already had thought based on some of those numbers you said but i think he has a chance if he continues playing at this level for another three four years and interestingly the hall of fame monitor which is just really good

at its job like i think it's very good at identifying like who's got the best cases based on the history uh it actually does factor in if you win a championship. It's not a player rating system. It's a will you get in the Hall of Fame, and it knows. It is aware that if you win a championship that you're going to get more attention and that you're going to be on the world stage, and a lot of people are going to remember that. Like you said, if you get a huge interception

and they've talked about you you know and and you know chris collinsworth and mike tariko are spending the whole game talking about hey you know this guy harrison smith this or like you're going to get way more attention so what they do in the playoffs could ultimately impact his case because the one playoff game that really stands out is the nfc championship game in philly and harrison smith got dunked on like four times in that game yep and did not play well and the whole team didn't play well but he specifically is on the wrong end of you watch the highlights of that game and that's kind of the lasting memory of harrison smith in the playoffs so

changing that narrative this year i think would be uh would be good for his his case i agree uh is there any other hot topics you want to talk about before we get into the lions no i guess the hot topic if you want to call it that in and of itself is the lions being like a field goal favorite against the vikings when they have five fewer wins and i guess what what was your take when you when you saw that were you like that's weird or were you like no that makes sense well i wasn't shocked by that no uh yeah and i see i follow a lot of gambling people on twitter because they have a different perspective than me on things like this and you know i think that like okay so i've always had this take that power rankings are useless because no one actually uses them for what they're supposed to be they just repurpose the standings

and it's like oh i think this eight and four team is slightly better than this nine and three team you're like that's still just the standings like no one is putting in a power ranking the detroit lions up there because then you would get all the tweets from people oh what are you stupid or whatever but if you power ranked the way that teams have played recently the the version of the Detroit Lions you're facing right now has been really good. They just blew somebody out who is not a horrible team in Jacksonville. They're not good, but they're not horrendous. Jacksonville just beat Baltimore the week before and they blew them out. They scored 40 points. They played right to the end with Buffalo and

should have won the game against Buffalo. Like the way that they're playing is what people are going to factor in. They're going to look at the point differentials for the season, which is not actually that far away from each other. And you're also going to look at, and you want to talk about sort of the hot, hot Vikings topics. Like they're going to look at the fact that Kirk cousins just got mutilated last, last week. And the fact that the defense

not only gave up almost 500 yards, but was on the field for 85 plays. Like they are coming off a game that was extremely emotional, extremely physical. And the last time they did that, they went from Buffalo to Dallas and Dallas is better than Detroit, but still like they lost 40 to three.

That is kind of a recipe for if you're a game picker and you're trying to figure out who's going to win this, what should the line be? Like that's something that you would factor in is how physical the last game was and how many plays they were on the field for. So I think that that's right. And I also think that, you know, it's not crazy to look at all the metrics. There are many ways to do this. And none of them come out with, hey, this is the 98 Vikings or this is the 99 Rams or something. They all come out with this is kind of last year's Vegas Raiders or this is kind of two years ago. Pittsburgh Steelers that went, I think, 13 and three and then lost to Cleveland in the first round.

I think that they have five games to show that they're not. And that's that's fair to be patient with that and see what the accumulation is. But if you're somebody who has no skin in the game, you're looking at those metrics and going like, yeah, this is probably way closer than you think. Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that Bills to Cowboys sequence because the last time the line came out and I was like, oh, that's interesting, was the Cowboys being like one and a half point favorites at US Bank Stadium. And at that point, the Cowboys were a good team.

But I think it was that Vikings game where they really flexed their like, we are top three Super Bowl contender in this league muscle or top four at least. And I mean, everyone saw what happened in that game. And you're right about the point of the Bills game. A lot of snaps, emotional, intense. And I guess that's kind of every week for this Vikings team. But the Jets game, more so than most, came down to the very end. Two drives that the Jets had that they could have taken the lead. Just intense, intense close finish.

And you're right like the the DVOA is another one where the Lions are 13th and the Vikings are 20th and you know you can have whatever opinion you have about about various metrics but if you look at historical DVOA I was looking at the football outsiders article the closest comparison to this Vikings team in terms of a 10 and 2 team is the 2000 Minnesota Vikings like the next closest team is funny it's it's another Vikings team and that team I was looking through and like there's a lot of similarities they had a good quarterback Dante Culpepper a good running back Robert Smith really good wide receiver Randy Moss good secondary

receiver that Chris Carter defensively like they had some guys they had John Randall a few others but the team just efficiency wise they started out with five one score wins they had a couple blowout losses during the regular season they get they got to 11 and 2 I believe and then they the last game of the regular season I think they lost by like 20 they get to the playoffs they win a game and then they lose 41 donut to the Giants, which everyone will remember. And I'm not saying that that is going to happen to this Vikings team. But with the Cowboys and the Eagles game, like you can just kind of draw a comparison there. So at first when I saw this Vikings-Lions line, I was like, that's weird.

Because also it will take a while for – the Lions are going to have to play really well for like three years for it to click in my brain that it's not like same old Lions. But I legitimately think it isn't. I mean you mentioned it. Their last six games, they have four wins. Their two losses are a four-point loss to the Dolphins who are really good, like the two of Dolphins, and a three-point loss to the Bills, who are really, really good. Like this Lions team early in the season, let's not forget, week three at US Bank Stadium, they led by 10 heading into the fourth. They've had an offense all year. Jared Goff has operated this offense really well.

Aminra St. Brown, DeAndre Swift, Jamal Williams, like they have the pieces there. It was just the defense was horrific. And now, last month month it's not and and they've been playing well on that side of the ball so vikings have their work cut out for them we'll see what we uh what we end up predicting at the end here but it's gonna it's gonna be another one that comes down to the end i think well and i think that anybody who doesn't like this conversation or gets upset at this conversation about the point differential

well yeah i mean that's one thing no but not not not official gambling advice no but that but no but that's right like put your money down if you really think that but you know i'm not even i'm not even going to issue that challenge as much as i'm going to say that i think it's because i think it's because people are preparing themselves like they're nervous i don't think that any of this has to mean that you fail in the playoffs. Like there were a lot of reasons to look at the Los Angeles Rams going into the playoffs last year and say, I just don't think they're quite good enough. Their point differential was way better than this, but it wasn't unbelievable.

It was like plus 88, I think, which historically usually Superbowl winning teams are well above a hundred. So you are a little below the threshold. Matthew Stafford, we've all seen him throw the bad interception many times. And boy, did he try against San Francisco, but they didn't let him. You know, they tried to let Tampa Bay back in that game and they found a way like the Rams playoff run is the Vikings season this year, where every one of those games was insane even the Super Bowl insane Stafford has to lead a game-winning drive at the end and Aaron Donald has to make a sack at the end of

or whatever a pressure on Joe Burrow that causes an incompletion I mean those are the types of games that the Vikings have played all year so maybe you're best prepared for how close all the playoff games usually are or maybe Dallas and Philly are way better than you. I'm not really sure. I mean, I know that they are from head to head matchups, but you might even not face them. Like it just, the world is weird this way. Like with playoffs is that you get a couple upsets or something and who knows, like matchups are going to determine it.

So from the perspective of right now, it's really fascinating. It's also interesting to think about where they could be in five weeks. Cause I keep reminding myself there's 30% of the season left to go. We just know that the playoff thing is decided. So I don't know right now they are paper tiger ish. And I say ish because they have the superstar talent to not be, they have the talent to be up 20 to three. And then they have the weaknesses to blow a 20 to three lead.

Like that's your Minnesota Vikings this year. And I think it's a, it's really interesting. But as far as how each team is playing, I think that this, this Vegas line is totally deserved. And I was looking like what Garrett Wilson did to them last week, what Tyreek Hill did to them, what Stefan Diggs did to them. I'm in Ross St. Brown last week, 12 targets, 11 catches, 114 yards, two touchdowns. This man goes in the category of your elite receivers. And I think that's again, a problem for the Vikings because it's either going to be cam Dantzler just coming back or Duke Shelly.

And I have no idea, right? A Caleb Evans is down Andrew Booth Jr. is down is it Perry Nickerson is next man up Tay Gowan that's that's a practice squad name for you it seems pretty clear that they do not want to put Chris Boyd out there oh yeah on defense so I don't I don't think it's him but you're right Cameron Dantzler has missed the last four games with an ankle injury is he just gonna seamlessly be back and ready to go and if I mean if he if he's playing the Lions are gonna try to target that and Amin Rasain Brown absolutely has been one of the best receivers in the league this year it's just yeah this game is interesting to me because because the Lions defense is playing better but I just mean, I don't think there's any reason to have faith in this Vikings defense to not give up 450 yards to the Lions. So it's again going to come down to

the critical downs as it always has. And I was looking at this week three game and the Lions put up 416 yards. They, like Jared Goff was good. He threw one pick at the very end. Jamal Williams ran for two touchdowns, but the Detroit Lions went three of 16 on third down, which I think is the exact number that the Jets just did. Yeah. So the Vikings are very good at getting teams to go three of 16 on third down. And they had to settle for a field goal at one point and just various things like this game back in week three has looked very similar to what we've seen for the past two or three months so it's going to be that again and the whole conversation of the Vikings and and the nine and oh and one score

games and like how much of that is complete randomness and how much like the Vikings say can they actually like kind of control and I think it's a little bit of both like any you can't you can't possibly master the art of winning close games because they have gotten lucky this year like double doinks and drop touchdown passes and fumbled snaps at the one and all the all these things like they have gotten some breaks that just suggest at some point they're not going to get that and they're going to regress and they're going to get burned if they keep playing with fire but they have so much experience now in these situations i think there's something real about like they get into a situation against the jets where it's jets can score a touchdown take the lead they're not panicking by any means

they're confident that they're going to find a way to to get a stop there because they have all year and they have the important thing they have the talent it's not like this is some no-name defense that is 31st in yards allowed per game like they have Harrison Smith they have Patrick Peterson they have Daniel Hunter and and Zedaria Smith and Eric Kendricks and Jordan Hicks have been kind of really up and down in my eyes but But those guys are really like eighth-year linebackers. So I think there is something real about the Vikings' ability to kind of be confident in these close games. But if they keep doing it every week, at some point, we keep saying this, at some point they will lose a close game. Tis the season for you to buy the best minnesota sports themed apparel in the world for all of your friends and family go to soda stick.com they have great

holiday shopping deals there and use the promo code insider that is s-o-t-a-s-t-i-c-k.com code insider for all of your holiday shopping i don't know that it's the rest of this year i mean but but this would be the week right like i don't i don't believe in the giants the colts are cold stink i don't even know how much the games against the bears and packers are going to matter so like this is kind of in a way like the final frontier of this conversation like this game and i guess the giants i'm just so unimpressed by them like as a whole like they have a negative point differential you want to talk about no one

believes in your team no one really believes in the new york giants i think people do believe in justin jefferson and the superstar talent of this team the giants really don't even have that um but that's really it like this is that this is kind of the last time we really get to have that conversation aside from the Giants game and I think that's what makes it interesting now as far as hot topics go we haven't discussed Jamison Williams we will re-litigate Jamison Williams over the next number of years for sure with that trade down but my question for you as we go into this game is what do you think he's going to do? Because last week he played like two snaps. I think nothing.

I think he's coming off such a major thing with the ACL where he's going to really be eased back. And, like, I saw a report or tweet or something, like, they wanted to use him as a punt gunner last week. But then they didn't punt a single time against the Jag jaguars so they didn't get to do that so that that kind of tells me he's not like gonna take some big leap and play 35 snaps this week i think he might be out there in like almost a jalen rager role and then play a few snaps maybe get the ball and then gadget play or run some deep deep routes to try to clear out a safety or something and then he might be a punt gunner too so this specific game i don't think we're gonna have any hot takes about that that trade but yeah next year the year beyond like if he gets back to looking like he did at alabama

and and oh boy christian watson by the way has like eight touchdowns in the last four games or something that's not the exact stat but yeah, yeah, we're going to be talking about this for a little while, especially considering neither of the Vikings, the two defensive backs they drafted early, have been healthy. There's risks that I really like. Going for it on fourth down. Going for it on fourth down doesn't make me nervous because I just think it's right.

Like when a team lines up fourth and two with the 35-yard line, I'm like, oh, they're just right. With this one, this one should make me nervous because i just think it's right like when when a team lines up fourth and two with the 35 yard line i'm like oh they're just right with this one this one should make you nervous it should have made you nervous in day one because you didn't just give them a player you gave them a player that you know could have huge huge potential and who's going to play against you all the time like this guy is not going away but as far as this game goes though uh and and we'll find out over years like jameson williams might be a bust he might be a hall of famer we have no idea right now and both the defensive backs may be injured now and then stay healthy for the rest of their lives and be great and everyone's happy i don't know i would i said when they traded digs i said

good luck finding another digs and then oh my god here's justin jefferson like who would have ever thought that um so but as far as this week goes i think they'll try one i think that they will try to line up and based on what garrett wilson did to patrick peterson on a particular play i think one time he got he got christian week one christian watson last week against against garrett wilson maybe the first play from scrimmage. I think that they will try. If you're the Lions, that's got to be tempting, right? One time they will set up Jamison Williams against Patrick Peterson and run him straight down the field and try to throw a bomb.

It's inevitable that they will try to win that trade on Sunday, at least for one play. Because Jared Goff can get it there. Oh, for sure. He's got a huge arm yeah and both i mean both of the like think about like what those target numbers would be different if both of those turned into touchdowns you know we look at those targeted and whatever those you talk about like the merits of some of those stats can be a lot more shaky than than some of the grades from pff but um okay i uh we could pick this, and then I have a quick game for you.

Well, we haven't – one thing, we haven't talked about the TJ Hawkinson revenge game. Oh, yeah. You got any thoughts on that? I mean, I just have a feeling he's going to score a touchdown because, like, Kevin O'Connell is going to – for the same reason the Lions might scheme up Jameson Williams, Kevin O'Connell is going to try to get – because he does that. And I think that's real.

Like, they put Jalen Rager in in that Philly game and try to like get him the ball and and they it's he tries to empower players and he like week 17 last year mike zimmer said i don't care about records i only care about wins kevin o'connell's never gonna say something like that because i think he understands what like getting justin jefferson to 16 30 yards last year would have meant to him yes and he gets that so that angle i think i think tj hockinson might might get schemed up in the uh in the low red zone here yeah i completely agree i think though that the hockinson trade is very uncontroversial to me because it was so obvious for both teams like if detroit didn't plan to make hockinson a long-term part of how they're spending their money.

And they're a team that's rebuilding and thinking long-term. Well, it makes sense to move on from him and create as much cap space as you possibly can. If that's not a future player, you didn't draft him. You're not locked into him. And for the Vikings, you desperately needed another weapon. We talked about their best tight end was KJ Osborne. And you didn't give up that much. But also from Detroit's perspective, like you got a second rounder.

Like that's really good for you. So both teams can sort of like shake hands on this one and say good trade. The other one is like, I don't know, man. I mean, you trade from 12 to 32. You go so far down. You don't get another first. Like that one is one that had to work out in the future for the Vikings in order for us not to go back and go, what the? This one was really obvious, I thought.

Like if you got a chance to do it, then you do it. Yeah, the draft ones I think are going to be interesting to follow. But everything they did kind of during and before the season, like they gave up a couple of late round picks for Jalen Rager. And he's helped them win some games so far. He's solid punt returner and he might continue to get more involved. They gave up a late round pick to get Ross Blacklock and he's, he's been solid.

Like they moved on from Armin Watson, Amir Smith-Marset and that hasn't, well that actually helped them win a game when Amir Smith-Marset fumbled in week five. But I think all those trades have worked out so far. And the TJ Hawkinson one, you're exactly right. He was a good tight end. He came to Minnesota. He's been a good tight end. And he's really helped their offense. And the Lions, just look at what they've done since they traded him. It'll ultimately be judged

over the course of years. But they've been really good since they traded him. And that's not like a shot at TJ Hawkinson. It's just the reality. I mean, maybe that validates that they didn't think he was a super important part of their offense. And it's going to be the the Aminara St. Brown and DeAndre Swift show. And it has been. Yeah. Allocation of funds, really, for them. And there's no even guarantee that the Vikings sign Hawkinson long term, but he's a win-now type of move.

All right, here's the game. Motown singer or guy who caught a pass in 2008 for the 0-16 Vikings, okay? 0-16 Lions. Wow. 0-16 Lions, yes. Dan Orlovsky running out of the back of the end zone and so forth. Yeah, so this is either someone who is a legendary Motown singer. I have a list from the Motownmuseum.org,

and I have pro football reference 2008 0-16 Lions. This is good. There were about 20 people who caught at least a single pass for the Lions. Okay. So I will give you the name and you tell me. Calvin Johnson was on that team, right? Which one? Yeah.

You're presumably not going to name him because you know who name him because i'm not going to name him because i know i know who he is literally everyone else it's possible you haven't heard of on the 08 line do they have one of the two roy williams they did yes yeah i wasn't going to use that's all that's those are the only two i can think of so now also rudy johnson the running back i think that you would have known not necessarily but sure okay so yeah Okay. So, yeah, he was around. He was a Bengal. Okay. Our first player or Motown singer is John Standiford. That sounds like it could be like a random tight end.

So I'm going to say football player. That's correct. He was a wide receiver. He caught 15 passes for 244 yards. Okay. All right. correct he was a wide receiver he caught 15 passes for 244 yards okay all right next on our list here either motown singer or uh player from the 2008 uh detroit lions moran norris i'm gonna go motown singer that is incorrect moran norris was a fullback who caught four passes for 16 yards at four yards per catch. Okay, how about we go with Barrett Strong. Barrett Strong.

Barrett Strong. I'm going Motown. You had to figure I would go Motown eventually. Yeah, some of it is just like reading what's your pattern going to be, but I'm going to try not to do that. Barrett Strong was indeed a Motown singer. All right, next on our list is Cary Colbert. Is Cary Colbert a Motown singer or a Detroit Lion?

This is a really good game because, like, it just could completely be either. And I would have no idea. But I'm going to say Detroit Lion. That's correct. He was a Detroit Lion. He wore the number 19 before it was cool. And he had five receptions for 64 yards. Nice. OK, our next either player or Motown or is Jimmy Ruffin.

That that's screams Motown. That's yeah. Jimmy Ruffin. And he might be a little too famous for that. I don't know. Jimmy Ruffin is just the name screams. I'm all old Motown singer. OK, Motown singer or I won't I won't go who Jimmy Ruffin is. It's just the name screams I'm an old Motown singer. Okay, Motown singer, or I won't go Marvin Gaye here. I'm trying to find ones to use that maybe you wouldn't know. Not Stevie Wonder, for example. But, of course, the 08 Lions only have so many famous people, so it's a little easier.

Casey Fitzsimmons. I'm saying Lion. You're doing extremely well in this game that that name maybe i recognized somehow maybe not okay uh mike furry f-u-r-r-e-y that's that's a detroit lion man i i that's another one where i'm like maybe maybe i recognize that i cannot trick you here uh okay john owens um john owens i'm saying motown that is a detroit line dang i yeah that was good that you kept going with the lines i was thinking at some point you're going to go back to the singer and that yeah that's a perfect name where it's like i have no idea you're trying to play the player and not play the game well i'm doing sean mcdonald that's a another detroit line that is another

detroit line yes a wide receiver who caught 35 passes oh my god this team marv johnson that's got to be a motown singer it is a motown singer yeah i've gone too many marv johnson well you know i mean they had john owens and casey fitzsimmons those kind of sound like uh all right uh valerie simpson is that a receiver tight end fullback running back or a motownown singer? Isn't Valerie a woman's name? I mean, there are men named Valerie. Oh, really? Okay, I didn't know that. I'll call him Motown singer.

It's actually a woman Motown singer, but I thought I could kind of throw you off there. It is a predominantly female name, I would say. You know. Shout out to the Amy Winehouse song, Valerie. Which I that was originally written about a guy okay yeah that actually might be true now so there you go uh okay so i've run out of motown singers from their museum but you want to just rattle off a few more just a few more detroit lions running back kevin smith who almost got to a thousand i would have got that

yeah he was the second leading receiver that year with 39 catches oh my god it's a travesty this this jerome felton former viking was there vikings legend nine catches you would have known that one somersaulted into the end zone yeah so that kind of covers all the oh the other one was avion caisson remember avion caisson not at all no that was a good game though should we uh should we pick this real quick you did well we uh i think we skipped that, I forgot that we didn't pick it. I'm going to go with the Lions. Okay. I'm going to go with the Vikings.

I'm very tempted to take the Lions. I mean, they're literally favored, and they're at home. But I think the Vikings are a better team, and I can't get it out of my head that it's the Detroit Lions. And even if they're up 10 at the end of the third quarter, they will probably find a way to lose. So at the risk of the Vikings, the Vikings could lose this game by 20 points and I wouldn't be shocked. But I'm going to take the Minnesota Vikings.

I always pick splits for division games, even no matter how bad the teams are. Yeah, that's fair. I mean, that might change this year with the Bears and Packers. But that's just always like my theory. When I start the season and I do the wins and losses i just pick splits unless matt patricia is coaching the other team yeah so give me give me kevin o'connell over dan campbell though i agree i agree uh but i think in terms of like in terms of like a game management thing and like calling the schematics and all that from a pure leadership perspective give me dan campbell that

dude fires you up i think equal maybe um yeah koc is good in that area give me ben johnson over kevin o'connell oh maybe maybe their offense is better ben johnson probably gonna be a head coach all right well that was fun uh one of us will be right one of us will be wrong maybe uh next time next year we'll do uh motown karaoke and we'll make you sing on the show uh i haven't done enough singing this year. If people are leaving mean iTunes comments, that should really be your comment, not there's too many ads in the show that's free and goes for an hour. Anyway, thanks for your time, Will.

I will catch you later, and we'll probably have one more episode before the end of the week for fans only if you want to send any questions, and otherwise we will see you guys after Detroit.