Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Should the Patriots trade down with the Vikings? The Athletic's Chad Graff thinks so

Episode Date: March 6, 2024

Chad Graff of The Athletic joins to talk about whether he believes the New England Patriots would be willing to trade down with the Minnesota Vikings in order for the Vikings to move up and pick a quarterback. Chad talks about what happened to Mac Jones and if the Vikings should be interested in him Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here, and look who it is! Chad Graff of The Athletic, our old friend from the Vikings beat, now covering the New England Patriots. He went there to cover championships, he went there to cover deep playoff runs and parades, and he arrived, and it all fell apart and turned into complete garbage, and now the Patriots are drafting high. Is that a good summary of your life in New England yet I think that's a fair summary there were a bunch of even this year Patriots writers being like wait I can't figure out like what are the tiebreakers for

the draft order is there a website that keeps track of this like guys I hate to break it to you I know how to do this here follow me here's the website that you go to to find the draft order. I know this is something that you didn't have to worry about for 20 years, but welcome to the new reality. The Patriots are like every other team now. And off we go with a 4-13 season and the number three pick. Shout out to Tankathon. Always super helpful for us to figure out the draft order.

Well, let's not beat around the bush here. Can the Vikings trade up to number three? What is your feeling on whether they will draft a quarterback or trade number three to the Vikings that allow the Vikings to draft Drake May and make everybody happy? It's definitely possible, but it would take a lot as I guess what I would say. The Patriots really want a quarterback at number three. They know the value of having a quarterback on a rookie deal. There are so many reasons that you should just suck it up and take a quarterback. And if Jaden Daniels, Drake May, whoever it is, if it doesn't work out, you begin again in three years.

Basically what happened with Mac Jones. Mac Jones didn't work out, and now they're beginning again three years later. I think it's been difficult for patriots fans and even people within the organization to realize oh my god this is what you have to do when you don't have the best quarterback who's ever lived like this is this is humbling uh but at the same time so while i think even all the way up to the crafts would love to have a quarterback on a rookie deal try to build around that person and if you hit it right you're set up for 10 years at the same time their new de facto general manager even though he doesn't have this title is elliot wolf who comes from the packers the son of ron wolf and he definitely recognizes that this roster is straight up really bad.

It has holes everywhere. You know how this draft season, NFL Network, ESPN will put up draft needs for each of these teams. You could legitimately put up basically everything except maybe linebacker, I guess, for the Patriots. They could use help at every single spot and so because of that like there's a a very rational uh argument that would tell you if the Vikings are going to give up a haul in their first round pick next year and you can build elsewhere like go ahead and do that drop back and draft you know whatever offensive tackle or wide receiver whoever build up and then drop your quarterback in in a year or two certainly a sound argument um i just think that there's there's some

wishes from the top of the organization like hey let's go get a rookie quarterback sink or swim maybe it works maybe it doesn't but let's take a shot at the board but this is a situation where if you are going to draft drake may or jaden Daniels, that you have to not play him, right? I mean, everyone's going to want to play him. The owner's going to want to play him. Everyone's going to want to see what he could do. But with Mac Jones, I think there's a world where he goes to a different team that actually cares about receivers. Doesn't think that the quarterback could just make everyone amazing. Like he did when Tom Brady was there. If honestly, if San Francisco drafts Mac Jones, does he turn out to mostly be Brock Purdy there? I mean, based on what we saw from his rookie year, the talent was clearly

there, but then they just decided, no, Devante Parker is actually the answer. Juju Smith-Schuster is actually the answer. I mean mean are they going to repeat kind of the same mistake by putting someone in a position where it is very very hard to win when you have nothing around you yes i think they are uh the plan and the way that gerard mayo sees it is you're going to sink or swim you you might fail and in which case like his belief is you probably would have failed uh regardless and let's just find out right now and pull the band-aid off so um not sure that a lot of places would agree with that and i'm even curious if elliot wolf would agree with that he came from the packers

the packers are famous for not doing that more than any other franchise and so i think that you could have some competing interest there with a front office background saying, let's draft and develop the guy. I think that's part of why the Patriots are interested in Baker Mayfield, even though it traditionally probably wouldn't make sense to add a guy at $35 million into a horrible roster that needs a complete rebuild. Fortunately, perhaps for the Patriots, I don't think Baker Mayfield is very interested in them. It sounds like his interest is much more Minnesota, Atlanta, Tampa Bay. And if all of those say no, I guess maybe begrudgingly I'll consider the Patriots. So that may save them. But yeah, I kind of think even if their scouts tell them, look, Jaden Daniels is intriguing. Drake May is intriguing. We think that with some time to sit back and learn the offense and figure this out, they could be really good. I think the Patriots, if they draft a quarterback at number three, which I think they will,

they're kind of just going to throw them into the fire, have some kind of fake training camp competition with like Jacoby Brissett or Gardner Minshew or something like that. And then they're like, look, he crushed him in training camp. Did you see that second preseason game? He was four for six on that drive. So I think that's kind of the plan, believe it or not, to just roll with the 21-year-old quarterback. Okay. What is your feeling on how it's going to play out at the top then? Because Caleb Williams is locked in, in my mind at number one, there hasn't been any evidence that that's not going to happen. And then with Drake May and Jaden Daniels, depending on who you follow on a day-to-day basis, you could be talked into,

oh, well, Drake May's the guy who's going to drop. Oh no, actually Jaden Daniels is overrated. Oh no, actually JJ McCarthy. And if Belichick was still there now, he claimed that he had Jaden Daniels as the top quarterback. Isn't JJ McCarthy though, the most like Belichickian type of quarterback to try to go get the Michigan guy, the guy with the nice hair and so forth. But what is your feeling on how that actually is going to go? And are the Patriots comfortable with either one of those two quarterbacks? The Patriots are in the weird spot that they'll probably just have to take whichever quarterback drops to them. So they're very much at the point of signaling like, no, no, no.

We like everybody. Anybody would be awesome. Like we've got them graded like virtually the same. Whoever drops to us, that's the guy that we really wanted. Truthfully, we had them 0.01 higher than the other guy. That's kind of how they're going to have to play it and how they're going to have to spin it. I still think Drake May is probably better. There's a lot of stuff with Jaden Daniels that's a little bit concerning,

including just how slight and skinny he is and the fact that he gets popped. He takes some massive hits. Loves to scramble around. Doesn't perhaps project as somebody who's going to play great within structure, which is interesting since a lot of offensive coaches, including Kevin O'Connell, seem to preach that. So I still would prefer Drake May. I think he's probably going to go number two. I do think there's a little bit of a gap between Caleb Williams and Drake May,

and then a little bit of a gap between Drake May and Jaden Daniels. But I think that the Patriots, when, if this scenario holds true and they draft Jaden Daniels, will they come out like, he was virtually the same to us. We loved all three of these guys and we just felt fortunate that we had the third pick in a draft with three great quarterbacks. Even though, truthfully, I think Drake May offers a little bit more. All right. You be the Patriots. I'll be the Vikings.

I want to trade up to number three. So Washington takes Jaden Daniels. Drake May is on the board. I think that's who Kevin O'Connell would like the most. I'm going to offer you three first round picks. Number 11 and then two additional first round picks, number 11, and then two additional first round picks. And then we'll throw in some change, maybe a second rounder in 2026. Is that enough for you? Yes. I might not be allowed back in the grocery store around here.

Everybody wants to just hold onto the number three pick, take the quarterback, move on. If the Patriots could get two additional first round picks in a, including number 11 or 12, whatever it is like sign up for that, do that. This roster stinks. It needs as many first round picks as you can possibly get. And then next year, if you do hit on some guys this year and you target a quarterback that you like,

you've got the ammunition that you can then be the team to move up and go get whoever. And just, if we're being honest, they're probably not going to be very good next year. They're probably going to have a, you know, almost certainly a top 10 pick, probably even a top five pick again next year. You're going to have another chance to get the quarterback. I'm beating the drum of if a team is going to offer you additional first round picks in the future, like sign up for that now, whether it's Atlanta or Minnesota or whoever. Not sure that's the most popular sentiment here in New England, but hell yeah. If the Vikings are willing to give up the next two first round picks and change elsewhere, like the Patriots are not in a spot that adding Drake May or Jaden Daniels is going to,

you know, change their outlook. Whereas I think it would for Minnesota, if you've got a guy on a rookie deal and Justin Jefferson and, um, you know, the pieces that they have there, like I would sign up for that from Minnesota. You made that too easy. I thought I was like ready with three or four different proposals and I was going to keep throwing them at you. How far would you go out of curiosity? How far, like you're the G, you're Kwesi. How far would you go to try to move up for Drake May at number three? My next proposal was going to include a player because last year that was what was required to get up to number one for the Carolina Panthers. So it's not that different of a jump to go from number 11 to number three. I was going to say the number 11 pick and Christian

Derrissaw for the number three. I was going to say Brian O'Neill, but I think Derrissaw would be even more valuable. Oh yeah, for sure. But I mean, my thing is like, you probably have to give so much that they can't say no. And with Brian O'Neill, his price tag, his recent injuries, I mean, maybe you'd say like, he's still great, obviously, but you would say, no, I want Derrissaw, the left tackle, as opposed to the right tackle. Would you do it for 11 and Derrissaw? Probably not that. It would have to be more than that. letting known to reporters via the combine and wherever else that they love the quarterback so much is a this is a completely different regime from bill belichick and they're trying to show

just how different they are look we're friendly with the media we'll talk to you um we'll hang out with you so there's a little bit of that but there's also a little bit of hey quacey hey atlanta hey vegas denver whoever just know we really like these quarterbacks we are comfortable to sit here like you better knock our socks off in an offer to come up to this where the truth lies is probably somewhere in between i'm guessing that you know they maybe don't love jayden daniels drake may and caleb williams all equally as they like to say and think and that each of them would be worthy of the number three pick. I think that they do like them enough to draft them,

but there's also a bit of posturing going on of, hey, Kweisi, you're going to have to really blow us away to come get this pick. Oh, I know all about the culture shock of going from the old school Parcells head coach to a much younger head coach who has a different media approach. So that's probably quite different for you since you spent so much time covering Zimmer and then Belichick.

It's like, I guess this is how football coaches are, and now it's quite a bit different, I imagine. It's the exact same. And Quasey, Gerard was saying that he, you know, not that he was best buds with Kevin O'Connell during Kevin O'Connell's brief time with the Vikings, but they definitely overlapped and talked about coaching and getting into coaching at some point. So there's a relationship there.

I was trying the one thing. I shouldn't say the one thing, but the one thing that I was really trying to work on at the combine was, you know, hey, Gerard, the Minnesota facility is incredible. Like, if you're looking for joint practices, you should take the team out there. The hotel is right there. You walk across the street, you know, did you see the NFL PA survey number two? It's incredible what they've done over there. So I don't know if, uh, if my work at trying to get joint practices to Minnesota is going to come to fruition, but that was definitely on the agenda last week. That sounds like golf. That sounds like golf for us, like golf in the

morning practice in the afternoon. That's what I'm looking at. How about this trade? Now, look, one thing that I think the Vikings did a good job of is taking a big giant bucket of cold water and throwing it on any Justin Jefferson speculation. But just since we're doing this, Justin Jefferson for number three overall and change is an easy yes for the Patriots not as easy as I would have

thought I would have thought yes I threw it out to um both one person who works for the team and then just fans because I was curious hey like Justin Jefferson and a second for the number three pick would you do that thinking everybody was going to run to the hill. Yes, yes, of course. It wasn't quite that, which surprises me. I personally would do that in a heartbeat. This team not only is really bad right now and lacks a lot of good players, but it also lacks marketable players, players that you want to come see. If they're going to be in a rebuild, you're going to need a reason to come watch this team or get excited to watch this team for the next year or two. Justin Jefferson gives any team a reason to watch them.

Now, I'm sure Justin Jefferson probably wouldn't like that. Like, wait, you're sending me to New England where Jacoby Brissett is going to be throwing me passes? No, thank you. But yeah, if you could get Jefferson and some change for number three i think you do it but what was interesting when kind of throwing it out on twitter dumb things like that it was one of those trades that i felt like both sides both fan bases said no to like it seemed to be like

minnesota fans were saying no no we just got the best non-quarterback in the nfl we're keeping him here in pain and he's not going anywhere, especially just for, like, one first-round pick. No way. And then New England fans are like, hang on, we have a million holes to fill. We finally got a top-five pick. This is their highest pick since taking Drew Bledsoe number one overall. Let's do a proper rebuild and not go after a guy who's just about to, you know, probably

blow the wide receiver market out. So a rare move that it felt like both sides kind of said, no, what would you do? Would you give up Jefferson to move up that high? No, I would not. Jefferson to me is only getting traded for Josh Allen. Like there's just, he is so valuable to the quarterback that I'm not moving him. And people watch the combine go. There's lots of good receivers coming. Okay. There's probably three to five true difference making receivers in the NFL

that can take your quarterback single-handedly and elevate them. And he is one of them and he is the best one of them. No, I'm not moving because I want the next quarterback not to be a bust. And what's going to push the needle that way the most? And A.J. Brown did the same thing for Jalen Hurts. I think Jalen Hurts is a really good quarterback, but A.J. Brown is a really great wide receiver. And he was in the MVP conversation. It's like, come on, let's let's not let's not lose sight of what the game is now. It's kind of like the NBA where it's like,

who's got the best player who can just dominate the ball all the time? You win. It's kind of like that with receiver. It's like, who's got the best receiver who's unstoppable and can be schemed like crazy? And Cooper Cup wins Offensive Player of the Year, goes to the Super Bowl, makes Matthew Stafford a Super Bowl quarterback after we watched him be just good for a long time. I think that Jefferson has made Kirk Cousins way better than what he would have

been without him. Like when you look at Cousins rating throwing to Justin Jefferson basically turns Cousins into an MVP. Okay, let's do that for Michael Penix or let's do that for JJ McCarthy and see how it turns out. Yeah. There's no way I'd be doing that. And plus I also have too many questions about Jaden Daniels. You mentioned some of them. If Drake Mays going number two, there's no way I'm doing something totally crazy for a guy that I think actually has a kind of a high bust possibility. He has a high MVP possibility, but I mean, with the way that he plays, the injuries that I think he's going to get in the NFL because he can be out of control, the lack of like playing with

rhythm and timing and stuff, that's not a quarterback that I'm like all in trade anything. If it's Andrew Luck, yes. But I think short of that, then you would never do that for Justin Jefferson. But those people who do Jersey swaps, they had a great time with this. That's true. I am curious now that we're kind of thinking quarterback trades and what would work for Minnesota. If Cousins goes to Atlanta or wherever it ends up being, how high would you be willing to go up for J.J. McCarthy?

So let's say Drake May goes to Washington, never even entertains it. Three is Jaden Daniels. You're like, we're not blowing, we're not getting rid of the farm system for Jaden Daniels. Is seven too early? Is five too early? I assume nine is probably doable,

but at what point do you hit, hey, we're going to have to give up too much to go this high to get J.J. McCarthy? Well, I think when you consider that there's a connection there with Kweisi Dalfomensa and Rand Carthon, the general manager of the Tennessee Titans, it's hard not to make that connection. Also, I look at the Arizona Cardinals, the Los Angeles Chargers, as if you're trying to get up above the Giants who have been connected to JJ McCarthy, then that might be where you have to go. The thing is, do you want to give up an

additional first in the future to move up to then take a quarterback who might have more of a development curve, who also a lot of people are kind of projecting as more of a mid first or late first round prospect and has sort of become the darling of the draft at the moment. But for me, it's if Kevin O'Connell loves him, then let's do it. I mean that my opinion doesn't even matter that much. Like personally, would I trade up to take JJ McCarthy? I don't think so. I think that's pretty risky to do, but if Kevin O'Connell said, Hey, this is my guy. I know I can work with him. I sat down, I ran him through the X's and O's. He's got that dog in him.

I'd be like, all right, let's go. Let's do it. That's fine. I don't care. I don't care what I thought at draft time. I've been wrong and everybody else has too. So, I mean, I could see the Vikings having to do something like that. If they're not in love with Bo Nix if they're not in love with Michael Penix then you might have to because all the mock drafters now those fellas at the athletic with all their mock drafts everybody's got J.J. McCarthy now going as one of the top quarterbacks right and I guess I'm just spitballing and curious now say Kirk goes elsewhere like how does that change how they perceive the window especially if if they don't and then at 12 do they just like plug their nose and draft an edge rusher and build up the rest of the team and sign a Baker Mayfield and and kind of kick it

down the road to maybe draft a quarterback in a couple of years. Is that what you think the plan would be? Yeah. I've been thinking a lot about that. Like what if McCarthy goes and they don't like either Pennix or Knicks at that position, could you trade back into the first take Michael Pennix? I think that's reasonable. I'm not sure how anybody feels about Bo Knicks. There's like a wide range of opinions on Knix and Pennix. They might not even be first round picks or they might go in the top 15. I honestly can't really tell because the opinions are so different on those guys. But if you don't like either one of them at all, if their medicals on Pennix are scary or they don't like that he's not a scrambler or whatever it is, then you do have to kind of take your medicine. And the question is, would you go for Baker Mayfield?

Because he's got a big arm. He could push the ball down the field. He won games last year with a pretty mediocre team. And you could get him for multiple years and kind of kick that decision down the road. But ultimately, doesn't that feel kind of Kirky? It's like a more fun version of the same exact thing. It's like, I would rather them take a quarterback. They don't like than go with Baker Mayfield. Uh, I mean, Mayfield is the bridge quarterback. Just, I don't know, like, when are you going to

get other chances? If you win nine games with Baker Mayfield, who are you drafting next year at quarterback? We just go through this circle of hell forever. So I can't really be truly sold on that. The only Mayfield deal would be if it was like a two-year deal with JJ McCarthy to develop behind him, but I can't really see that. So, but there is absolutely a world where because they're the 11th pick, because they won three games with Josh Dobbs, that they end up not being able to pick the quarterback I kind of want to like all right let's get there after we get through the Kirk decision but that's a real thing and I don't know what they would do should they trade for Mac Jones oh I mean the the Vikings can certainly have him I think from the Patri perspective. They would be willing to give him up at most a

fifth-round pick. And I do think that there could be some high backup upside, somebody that maybe you stash and develop. Maybe if you get Baker on a two- or three-year deal, you whiff on McCarthy. Maybe in July, you end up trading for like a Mac Jones to see, hey, maybe if we pair him with Kevin O'Connell, some of that first round potential, some of that rookie Pro Bowl year, which is a real thing that happened that Mac Jones went to the Pro Bowl. Maybe some of that comes to light a little bit. And Kevin O'Connell is able to bring that out. But at this point, he's probably not going to be better than the 25th or 26th best quarterback in the NFL. So probably not.

But all of that kind of in a roundabout way leads us back to that's all similar to what the Patriots are thinking. Where, hey, even if we don't love Jim Daniels, I'm not saying that's 100% the case. But if it is, is it almost just better to bite the bullet, take a swing? If it works out, Hey, he's got tons of upside. This could be incredible. If it doesn't work out, we were probably going to be pretty bad anyway. And we can just start over and do this again in two or three years. Right. And if you're the Patriots though, now here's the difference. You asked the word or you use the word window. And I think the vikings because of the way that quesadilla fomenta and kevin o'connell chose to compete and i say they chose to we know who actually chose to

but in 2022 to run it back to add zadarius smith to bring back patrick peterson and really take a shot at it and not trade kirk cousins when they could have at that moment and not tear it all down the same way that Detroit did and that Chicago did and that the Patriots may have accidentally done completely come apart. But when you look at the Patriots, you could say draft Jane Daniels, if it doesn't work out and then, you know, take somebody else and Gerard Mayo still may be the coach. If Robert Kraft may be patient there to let that kind of play out, build up the roster, be in a position to take a quarterback with the Vikings. There's maybe a little more pressure there because you set the bar at 13

wins. So everyone's going to be like, well, you won 13 your first year and no one cares about the nuance or anything else. Just you won 13 the first year you won seven the next year. So now if you win four, you know, like now you're under pressure. Now are you drafting Shadur Sanders to play for somebody else? And also I don't think they could ever be bad enough to take Shadur Sanders with the number one pick next year because they still have Justin Jefferson and this offense. And that is the difficult position that the Vikings franchise has been in for so long and they've never drafted a first round quarterback in the top 10 I mean how crazy is that like but it's just it's just who they are so you kind of have to do it now and take a shot

at somebody because if you don't and you try to play the Baker Mayfield game we know where that goes if you try to play the retread like oh, we know where that goes. If you try to play the retread, like, oh, well, they're getting rid of Fields. They're getting rid of Mack Jones. They're getting rid of Trey Lance. You're like, okay, well, I mean, I guess all those are fine shots, but even what's the high end? Like, oh, you know, Geno Smith is such a great story. What's the high end, though, of Geno Smith?

What's the high end of even Ryan Tannehill, who was a great story for Tennessee and ultimately wasn't a guy who could really get them anywhere. So, I mean, I think this is pretty much the Vikings have to find a way to draft quarterback. They could bring somebody else in. Although I wouldn't want much to do with Mac Jones as like a mentor quarterback. I don't think that's his, his ball game. I did want to ask you though, what you learned from the Mac Jones bust experience. It has been a long time in my life since I have covered a bus. The last one from my career was EJ manual taken in 2013. And then since I've been in Minnesota, it was, you know, Sam Bradford and

then a case Keenum Kirk cousins, but you got to see a real bust right up close. So what did you think? What happened? So I will say, and maybe the most diehard Vikings fans might remember, I wasn't always the biggest Kirk Cousins supporter, or at least thought that he wasn't always worth the contract. I will say covering Mac Jones made me come to appreciate what he did a lot more, both in terms of playing with a similar skill set, not the biggest arms in the world, both supposedly at least coming out like, hey, their accuracy is what's going to get the job done.

The way that Kirk carried himself compared to Mac was drastically different. And the big derailing of Mac Jones had to do with the fact that after a successful rookie season, in which he was legitimately like the 15th best quarterback in the NFL, a positive sign as a rookie going forward, he then got Matt Patricia as his offensive coordinator. That unraveled in predictable fashion. And then Bill Belichick wanted to keep Matt Patricia, got upset that Robert Kraft dare meddle in asking, hey, why is that defensive guy coaching our offense right now? Then he brings in Bill O'Brien, who people here were very high about. Turned out that perhaps maybe not should have been as high, especially when Alabama fans were dying to get rid of him.

That may have been a sign that he wasn't maybe cut out for this, but all of that is a long way of saying Mac Jones had three offensive coordinators in three years. And that is largely seen as one of the reasons that he combusted from his rookie year, because unlike a lot of bus, Matt Jones actually was a decent rookie. He had a season long stretch stretch of meaningful play. A lot of busts, you come in and realize pretty early, oh my God, this is not it. This is going to be a long three years. That was not the case with Mac Jones. It was a positive year one and then completely derailed from there. It had to do with both, I think, his personality not being a great fit for

Bill Belichick, though in fairness, it's incredibly a great fit for Bill Belichick, though in fairness, it's incredibly tough to play for Bill Belichick, as this current Apple TV documentary is outlining, that even Tom Brady got sick of playing for Bill Belichick. But also, it brought me back to Kirk Cousins so many times, where I remember when John DeFilippo was the offensive coordinator, and then Kevin Stefanski was the offensive coordinator. I feel like every offseason, a storyline was, hey, Kirk, how are you doing learning this offense? Well, you know, I've had five offensive coordinators in five years.

I've had four offensive coordinators in four years, whatever it was. And that is both seen as a reason that Mac Jones blew up, which I think is fair and true, but also gave me a little more appreciation for the fact that Kirk didn't blow up when he was experiencing like high level dysfunction within Washington in those early years. Yeah. And I think that what you can't predict when someone is coming out of college is mental toughness. And you could say it, you could say, well, you know, this guy went through this in college and he, you know, dealt with this or whatever. And

JJ McCarthy is a great example. This guy's won every game he's played it. So what happens when your team is four and eight and everyone's being like, you're a bust. You, you stink. The receivers are looking at you going, what's going on, man. You know, like how do you handle the coaching? Some coaches that you don't fit with some, I mean, in college, they get to pick their own colleges. They pick their own coaches. They like everything is just laid out for you with the red carpet. It's kind of why I like Michael Penix actually is because the guy's been through some stuff with the injuries and you know, he's fought back, but someone like McCarthy has just had the silver spoon the whole time. It doesn't mean he can't be good, but I think Kirk's mental toughness was forged in high school and college where he was always kind of underappreciated and so forth. And he just took that to heart and fought and fought and fought. And it was almost

like if, if, you know, John D Filippo didn't like him that I don't care. Well, they didn't like me in Washington either. I'll just keep fighting through it and i respect that very much about him another part is too and kirk would tell you himself in fact he told us once when we were chatting with him i asked him and this was a uh not on the record conversation but it was many years ago and i don't think he'd be mine i just said to him, like, why do you think some guys make it and some don't? And he said, supporting cast. Like if you put Mac Jones from day one onto the Minnesota Vikings with Justin Jefferson, this is a different world.

It just is because he goes to a place where the coach is an old school jerk who thinks that his next quarterback should just be Brady. And there are legitimately people who thought that they were quarterback should just be Brady. And there were legitimately people who thought that they were the reason Brady succeeded in new England. Imagine that, like whatever your ego is, there's is much bigger than that. So you, if, if he were to have come here, even working with Zimmer, I think it would have been okay because it wouldn't have, it would

have been Gary. It wouldn't have been necessarily Zimmer would have been Gary Kubiak that's just a different world that you're talking about like joining immediately a team that would have I guess or Clint but either way like a quarterback coach that knows a system that could put you in a play action bootleg run first type of system it's just I think the chances of success would have been way greater, but also I wouldn't want to trade for a quarterback who melted. I would have wanted to trade for a quarterback who fought through that and, and got to the other side and was still finding a way to make his team better. Not being the reason that his team is drafting number three overall. I think it's also a message to in just how difficult it is to properly

evaluate quarterbacks and you can do it. You can spend time talking to them and their parents and their high school coaches and teammates and everything can point to, yes, this is going to be a good fit. Mac Jones, the argument was, was with Nick Saban, very similar to Bill Belichick in a lot of ways. They were best buds. So you'd think, okay, he'll work well with him. He's not tough. Well, he's a competitor. Like he went and was in a quarterback room with Jalen Hurts and Tua Tagovailoa and beat out Bryce Young coming in as the five-star guy. Matt Jones was a three-star nobody and beat out legitimately Bryce Young. Never lost in Alabama. I think he had one loss

of his whole time there. There were a lot of reasons why you probably would have thought, yes, this is a good fit for him to go to New England. And yet turned out to be a horrendous fit on a number of different levels. And so also a reminder of we spend so much time thinking about this and debating it. And it's just really freaking difficult to figure out which quarterbacks are going to be good and which ones aren't. Well, and also, you know, you talk about those offensive coordinator situations. I mean, Josh McDaniel's a terrible head coach, clearly a very good offensive coordinator. And if he had continued in that role or they had even gotten someone remotely competent, I mean, maybe again, you're talking

about working to the strengths of the quarterback and playing in a way that would work for him. It's not like he was never good. It's just an interesting test case because of that. And because like similar to kind of Baker Mayfield or even Ryan Tannehill, where even Mayfield was thought of as kind of, oh, what's his personality and everything else. It's very,

very hard to be the guy who's fallen apart because the social media element, everybody in your life, everybody wants to tell you it's everybody else's fault. Like there's a lot of things that happen in today's world that may have crushed a young Kirk cousins that just didn't exist when Kirk cousins was there, which as you mentioned, so now these guys come out of college. Well, who's really going to be able to handle that? Who's really going to be able to handle the pressure that comes along with being a first round draft pick. And that's why it is so risky.

And yet of course the Vikings should take one, which was kind of where I wanted to end more on, on your opinion of what's going on in the Vikings from having covered them for so long. I think moving on from Kirk Cousins is just so the consensus opinion that it's going to happen and it's the right thing to happen. Is there any other way that you look at that? And then if they do, like, what is what do you think the window should be? What do you think the expectation should be if you are moving on from a quarterback that sort of guaranteed you a certain bar? I'm of a similar wavelength to you. You had

Kirk Cousins. He brought you to some playoff games. You had the playoff win. The game over the Saints was incredible. There was success there. He amazingly is probably one of the best quarterbacks in franchise history, number three, maybe higher. But after all of that, he is going to be 36 next season, coming off of a very significant injury, commanding a ton of money. I think this is probably the time to shake hands and say, hey, we loved having you. At a lower price tag, we were willing to have you back. But we got to do what's best for the future of this team right now. And that's probably moving on. I love the idea of taking a big swing for Drake May.

Of course, the connections were often discussed starting last week once McCown was hired. And so that makes a ton of sense. I'm sort of with you on Jaden Daniels. I think that there's a good chance that I'm covering him here in New England. But I do have him below Drake May. So if you can go get Drake May, awesome. Do it. Do whatever it takes. If not, I would kind of wait for J.J. McCarthy to fall all the way to nine. I'm not sure I'd move that far up to get him. And if you end up, you know,

having to deal with kind of a bridge quarterback, whoever that is this year while developing a Pennix or Knicks, I think that's a totally fine thing. And if it doesn't work out, you, you know, you'd use an early second round pick on the guy and that's okay to whiff there and move on. But it does kind of present that problem of NFL purgatory of until you have that guy figured out who reliably is a top 10 quarterback, the wheels are kind of always spinning. And Kirk, this has been a debate that's gone on for five years in Minnesota. He was always, in my opinion, like 12, 13, 14, which is really, really freaking good. It makes you a ton of money. It wins you a lot of games.

You don't really have a Super Bowl window though when that's your quarterback. And so I think you probably shake hands, say thank you so much. It was incredible to have you. Let's go take a swing. Maybe this guy ends up being a top 10 quarterback, maybe not, but let's go take a swing. There was guy ends up being a top 10 quarterback, maybe not, but let's go take

a swing. There was always a scenario where you felt like you could imagine it working. And I think that's what Kirk made so hard for everybody, for coaches, for fans, for media is when you're trying to evaluate him and the situation because he's talented enough to win something, but you have to have everything else. So much ducks in a row. You have to have a Philly roster from 2022. You have to have a San Francisco roster from 2023. And if you don't have that, you don't have much of a chance at going that deep in the playoffs. So we saw that play out with their 2018 and 2019 teams. If the coordinator was wrong, if the guard was wrong, if the defensive scheme was wrong, which we saw in 2022, then you were just never going to get there with him and his price tag.

And so, and you, and you know, like if you took Kevin O'Connell and zapped him back in time to 18 and he's running the offense with Kirk and they're like best buddies and throwing footballs at each other. Maybe it's different if the coach buys into it. There's always that with Kirk that I think makes it so tough to move on and so tough to kind of give up on it. But now we've reached the point. I think the Achilles injury made it easier where we've reached the point and said, you can't even project that he's going to be that version of himself. And by the way, 2019, still his best season ever on record. It's quite a long time ago now.

We were much younger. We were much younger. That was a super fun season to cover. You know, maybe not quite 17 fun, but very fun season. So I do wonder, though, do you think there's any chance it would go against everything he's ever done and the way that he's operated and his wife's hometown potentially do you think there's a chance that for the first time ever he says you know what my head coach likes me i've got the support of him my family happy here. We've got a great house and a great neighborhood, a team that is run well. And from top to bottom, number two, NFLPA,

I've made so much money. This is my chance to turn down $8 million a year that Atlanta was going to pay that Minnesota's not and say, hey, I like it. I'm happy. I've made my money. Let me give one last run with Kevin O'Connell and stick with the Vikings. I think the answer is yes, that that is, that is still possible. I am not completely counting that out. Kevin Seifert was on the show yesterday. He is not completely counting that out that in the final hour, we saw this from Anthony Barr and people have been sending me messages. And you said this as well when we first got on the call, like, hey, it looks like Kirk's headed out of town. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Anthony Barr joined the Jets and then came back. This place does have a gravitational pull on players because it is one of the best places in the world to play. And Kevin O'Connell is one of the best coaches in the world to play for. And that does matter. And, you know, opinions of family matters, opinions of the wife, of the children, of the best coaches in the world to play for. And that does matter. And, you know, opinions of family matters, opinions of the wife, of the children, of the, I don't know if they're old enough to have opinions, but you know what I mean?

Like all that stuff can play into it. And the uncertain matters. I mean, both you and I took jobs in other cities and we know that there's a big change when you go to another city. There's a lot to learn. It's a lot different when you go to another city there's a lot to learn it's a lot different and he hasn't done that in a while there's a lot there's a lot to learn in a new offense and how it's taught how your teammates are going to be so i i do think that there is a

possibility he gets to that last moment and says you know what i'm coming back like the uh wolf on wall street like i'm coming back except for with on Wall Street. Like I'm coming back except for with way less lesson. But yeah, I don't think it's likely at this point, but I do think it's possible. Which leads me to, I guess, two final things to wrap up. One is like that NFL PA survey, I do think is meaningful and the differences are noteworthy and it's hard to, you know, it's easy to roll your eyes, I guess hard to, you know, it's easy to roll your eyes, I guess, when, you know, you're talking about, oh, they've got a better smoothie bar and a better chef and whatever. And then I came to cover the Patriots who are a storied organization,

six Super Bowls, probably the second most valuable North American, like franchise even, or third, just, you know just off the charts. And then I realized, oh, they practice at their stadium and their locker room for games is the same as here. And they don't have this beautiful cafeteria and get fed at this. That stuff does matter. But two, we can't wrap up without,

I'm curious to hear your thoughts since we both covered Mike Zimmer. Coming back to the league now after a brief hiatus and I've gone back and forth on this. Do you think this is a good move for him? What are your thoughts? Do you think the Cowboys are going to be great? And this is a chance to, you know,

help them get over that hump that they're struggling to, or do you think he's going to do well in this new age if things changed enough? What are your thoughts on Mike Zimmer reentering the NFL? I mean, I think it's possible he's the head coach by week eight or something if they start out slow. Wouldn't that be incredible? It would be funny. Like Mike Zimmer head coach of the Dallas Cowboys,

because I don't know how McCarthy can't be walking on eggshells there at this point. After all those rumors that we dealt with covering him, are they going to trade him to Dallas? Right. Which I think had some steam. I still believe if they had lost to New Orleans that he was going to be the Dallas Cowboys head coach. I think that was going to happen.

But the thing about Mike that you and i both know is that there's nothing else in this world except for football and family truly for him and i mean this man i guarantee you was at the ranch in kentucky grinding tape every single moment of every single day that he could to stay on top of what was happening in the league, to study offenses, to study players, to evaluate players coming out in the dread. Like I think he was ready. I think he was preparing what schemes he was going to put in with what teams, if they came calling. And when he got this job, he's already got the full plan. I don't think he's just like, Oh, you know, I'm bored. I I've already done enough hunting. I think I'll just come back to the league. And I don't even think it's like an ego thing.

He could easily retire and be thought of as a really great head coach over his career. I think that Mike Zimmer knows nothing but football and it's his entire soul. And so I think he'll do really well. Give him that talent, those players, those corners, those pass rushers. And I promise you Ben Gideon or somebody is going to show up and stop the run. Like they're going to get some players to stop the run. They are not going to let the Packers run for like 200 yards with Aaron Jones in the playoffs. I think it's kind of scary for the NFC, honestly, to have Mike Zimmer there. I love the move, echo everything you said, but I hadn't really thought about the fact that if McCarthy gets canned, which seems like

certainly a possibility of not a probability, depending on how they start, he would be the logical guy to promote, which could be incredible because it also wouldn't be shocking if he got that roster with all that talent. And then they, I mean, we're dealing in total speculation here and scenarios and whatever, but they can go like six and two down the stretch. And what if Jerry Jones is like, oh, did you see the way we were playing ball at the end? Like I need to sign this guy to this every year deal. That would be amazing. Definitely unlikely, but would be amazing to see him get another shot at

being a head coach. So every year before the season, I do like 50 bold predictions and I, then I go back and look at them. And it's funny because some of them are like creepy dead on. And some of them are so hilariously far off. Maybe one that I'll include is Mike McCarthy gets fired. Mike Zimmer takes Dallas to the Superbowl. Yeah. Keep that one in your back pocket. I'll be, I'll be anxiously awaiting that story. I love that. Chad Graff.

Well, I still follow everything that you do in new England. And honestly, it's been hilarious to watch that thing come apart and you cover it there. But, you know, tanking is something that has been sort of a mysterious intrigue for me over these last few years, cause it's never been a reality and you got to live accidental tanking in new England. So I'm a little jealous from that standpoint, cause that must've been a bleep show to watch it all go down.

So, uh, I'm very happy for you though. It looks like things are turning out great for you. It's interesting to have a top three pick. I know people are going to be subscribing with promo code Chad or whatever at the athletic when you got a top draft pick. So I appreciate coming on. I'm glad to get together with you again, man. And I hope you have a really fun free agency and draft season.

Awesome. You as well. Whatever happens with Kirk, I'm more keen now to see if he ends up going to Atlanta or not. And then, you know, who knows if he does and the Vikings miss out on Baker Mayfield or skip out on Baker Mayfield, maybe we'll have to regroup and figure out some draft chatter as, as they would be two of the last five teams, the Patriots and the Vikings still looking for a quarterback. I, one thing I know is that we will never be short on headlines over the next couple of months we're

like we're busier now that we might have been in the regular season with these two teams so thanks again man and we'll talk soon awesome thank you