Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Should the Vikings trade Kirk Cousins for the same return Indy got for Carson Wentz?

Episode Date: March 9, 2022

Matthew Coller and Chad Graff react to the Washington Commanders trading for Carson Wentz and talk each other into trading Kirk Cousins for a similar return. Plus how do the Vikings keep Justin Jefferson happy if they trade Cousins? Are you buying the weak QB draft class will impact a Cousins decision? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here along with Chad Graff of The Athletic as we put our lives in our hands recording in the middle of NFL offseason madness just moments after Carson Wentz was traded to the Washington Commanders from the Indianapolis Colts. Everyone is waiting. The pins and needles are happening. And I've gotten no less than a hundred messages for people. Would you make this trade from Kirk? Is Kirk going to Indy? What's going on? What's going to happen? So I figured what better idea than to record a podcast right now so we could push this thing into happening. Your track record is incredible. I feel like you do control the news based on when you record. So whether it's Kirk or something else, I have no doubt that as we record here at two o'clock on a Wednesday, some massive news will be down the pipeline. And then I'm sure, you know, a recorder with Jeremiah Searles, and as soon as we got done, Russell Wilson gets traded to the Denver Broncos. So let's start out right here because we're going to play a game of Talk Me Into. But I want to start off just right here with your assessment of these trades and kind of just what they mean. Like, give me your reaction to the three big news items.

Rogers is staying. Wilson is a Bronco. Wentz is a commander, commando. What are we calling them? Whatever we're calling them. It's outstanding. I got to say, I love this time of year. It's so much fun.

I feel like I get to run one errand today, which was to go to the bank. And of course the news happens there, but it's like when you're driving, I feel like every time I stop, get to the grocery store, get to Target, whatever, look at my phone. Surely there's going to be something that has happened. It's an exciting time. But I guess we'll go in chronological order, starting with Green Bay.

Aaron Rodgers coming back. I don't think we still for sure know the compensation. Originally reported as $4 by $ 200 million. And then he was like, no, no, no, that's not accurate. I'm sure it's a ton of money either way. Not shocked, I would say just because, you know, it seemed like the relationship had been mended and everything we heard out of Green Bay was somewhat positive over the last nine months or so. So I guess I wasn't shocked. My initial reaction though was, if you're giving him a mega contract,

like I presume you would have to, to get him to stay, this is basically the last dance 2.0. Like everybody thought last year was gonna be their version of the last dance. We talk about salary cap hell all the time and the cap is a myth and all that. They are going to be in salary cap hell um we'll see what the content exactly looks like but it's hard for me to imagine that they're

not going to have some big decisions to make and some players to lose potentially including devontae adams after this upcoming season so packers running it back heavy heavy favorites in the nfc north um i would presume you know just because of how good the afc has gotten that they're probably the favorites to win the conference or at least be the number one seed I would presume, you know, just because of how good the AFC has gotten, that they're probably the favorites to win the conference or at least be the number one seed again. So no surprise he's back, running it back. But I got to think if you're a Packers fan, like you are just hoping and praying. We have had Aaron Rodgers for more than a decade. We have to win the Super Bowl this year because we cannot have one of the most skilled

quarterbacks of the last three decades and win one freaking Super Bowl with him. So I'll be curious to see. I think they're going to be one of the most fascinating teams of the next season as they run this back again. Then it seems like 90 minutes later, former Vikings assistant general manager George Payton wastes no time in saying, all right, Rodgers isn't coming to join his old coach. Fine, we're moving on to the next one.

Gave up what I think is a lot for Russell Wilson. Obviously a very good quarterback, and when he's healthy, no doubts that he's top 10 and borderline maybe top five quarterback. I don't put a ton of stock into the struggles at the end of last season, come and rush back from the injury way too soon. I do think that there are some legitimate questions. Like I was reading a story from some of my colleagues, including Mike Sando, just about how toxic it kind of got in Seattle. And on the one hand, you could say, yeah, he deserved to be. Pete Carroll was asking him to hand the ball off 30 times. He's got two great receivers, one of the best quarterbacks. What are you doing? And yet on the other hand, you read the stuff about how his agent was leaking about how horrible the coaches are and the front

office is terrible and nobody wants to work with him and his teammates don't seem to love him so that i think is a legit concern but if you're george payton you finally get a gm job like might as well go make a splash this year's quarterback crop, people say, is not very good. That can be a whole separate debate. Or sit back, accumulate assets, plan for four years from now. They push their chips in the middle. Love to see it. So we'll be excited to see how that turns out. And then, you know, today's news, I think my initial thought was Carson Wentz can command two day three picks one of them

potentially turning into a second round pick I would argue seems likely to turn into a second round pick so probably a second round pick and a third round pick for Carson freaking Wentz like I think you know if you've read some of my stuff or reef stuff I think it's you know it's fair to say that we don't view kirk cousins as a top 10 quarterback but kirk cousins is definitively better than carson wentz carson wentz is not very good like depending on what metric you want to use somewhere between probably 17 and 21 in a quarterback's ranking and you're going to give up multiple day two draft picks for this guy that shocks me um i don't foresee uh washington experiencing a great amount of success maybe you could argue their division is it great which you know you're probably right but i i don't see that trade going um super well for washington And then of course, now what does

Indianapolis do? Like they have been a team that's convinced themselves for basically since luck left that they were ready, that they were a quarterback away. The offensive line is pretty good. The running back's great. They probably need another wide receiver, but like the pieces aren't terrible they need a quarterback um and now you know do you do what you did with Wentz and give up a boatload of picks for somebody else Jimmy G maybe Kirk Cousins I don't know but what Indianapolis does I think you know is probably the next domino well the way that I look at this is the music is playing. And at some point the music is going to stop and somebody won't have a chair or a quarterback. And they're going to pick up that phone and say, all right, what do you guys want for Kirk?

And, you know, because Indianapolis is being tied to Jimmy Garoppolo, but what if somebody else trades for Jimmy Garoppolo? This has always been the thing about the Kirk Cousins trade ideas is there's more teams that are good roster wise that are in win now mode that need quarterbacks than there are available quarterbacks. And the Vikings are much closer to Seattle where the Vikings do not have a very good roster. They have lots of salary cap issues, 15 million over the cap as we speak. And even if they were to trade cousins and the other team took all the cap space,

you still don't have a lot. You have like 20 million. You can restructure, you can move things around a little, but is 30 million on the cap enough to make a huge difference from where they were last year? No, they spent about that same amount on the Sheldon Richardson's and Patrick Peterson's and Delvin Tomlinson's to stack up the roster. And it just seems like everything's kind of lining up for teams to start calling the Vikings and saying, what do you guys want? And that's where I want to start with our

game of talk me into, which is talk me into the Vikings trading Kirk Cousins for the exact same return as Carson Wentz just got. Talk me into that. Okay. Love this game. My favorite game. While potentially some may say that you should get more than a third round pick and a second round pick for Kirk Cousins. I am here to argue differently. I think that that is a perfectly acceptable compensation package. And here's why. The Vikings, as currently constructed, are not going to win the Super Bowl in 2022 slash three. You've had various people on from PFF who will show you via war stats and others that while there are some big names on this roster,

the roster is simply not as good as we think it is. Like it's easy to say, but Dalvin Cook, Justin Jefferson, Adam Thielen, Eric Kendricks, Danil Hunter maybe. There are the names that pop, Harrison Smith. And yet everything else would tell us that the roster is not good enough to probably win a division, let alone a Super Bowl. And so that gets back to what I mentioned earlier, where I think one of the worst things that you can do is sort of be on the fence straddling a rebuild, but also going for it.

And we want to be good, but if we're bad, you know, then maybe we'll just catch one of the last wildcard spots. And if we get to the playoffs and that's a success, that just feels like a really weird place to be if the end goal is a Super Bowl. Of course, I'm not an owner. And so it's easy for me to say, since I'm not impacted by playoff revenue and the like, which perhaps is a reason that the stated goal from Vikings ownership is like, look, we just want to get to the playoffs. We'll figure it out when we get to the playoffs. Teams get hot. Look at the Bengals. Nobody thought they were a Super Bowl team. You just get hot at the right time i don't know that that's sustainable and that is why i think a second round pick and a third round pick for kirk cousins which clear the bunch of um sour cap for you and then you can you can pick what you want to do if you are sold on one of

these guys you've got either the ammunition to move up and go get them or to let them fall to you. And if the draft board doesn't fall as you want, like I don't think there's anything wrong with signing a Bridgewater, Trubisky, Winston, whomever. And I know that the argument is always, well, they're not as good as Kirk. Yeah, I know they're not as Kirk. The goal isn't to win the Superbowl this year.

The goal is we're going to go out, scout all of the quarterbacks this year, find the best quarterback for the next year's draft class, and go forward from there. And right now you're kind of stuck in this limbo. And I guess the other reason why for my favorite game of Talk Me Into, I will talk you into this move, is it does not seem like Kirk Cousins is willing to do a lengthy contract extension with you that is going to meaningfully lower his salary cap. He is watching all of these other quarterbacks get large deals. Derek Carr floating that he may get more than 40 million. Carr, I think, is a pretty fair comp for Cousins. And Kirk Cousins is so, so, so good at capitalizing on his market and getting the most money he can. There's absolutely no reason to think that he's

just going to, yeah, I'll sign for 25 million a year. That's his prerogative. I'm not going to fault him for doing that. But given that that's the possibility if you extend him then yeah a second round pick and a third round pick like i think that's fair compensation i think so too and i am talked into this very much uh because it would shape the overall direction of the franchise i mean whether they get a first or a second or a second and a third is not so important as it is to clear the deck for quasi Adolfo Mensah to build this team in his vision and the way he wants to build it in the smartest, most wall streety analytical data driven way that he collaborative. Don't forget that, that he possibly can, uh, because he's not going to be able to do that without cap space.

You can't build something. It would be like you can't create a painting if I only give you two colors. I mean, maybe you can, but not the same as if I give you a full palette. Am I right? I mean, so that's the thing is you are limiting so much what Kweisi Adafo-Mensah can do to shape the team if you keep Kirk Cousins on his current contract, or even if you give him an extension that lowers the cap hit for one year. But how much does that really do? Because what you brought up is 100% correct that the price for quarterbacks is just

so much higher now than it is to draft a first round quarterback. That gap is gargantuan. It's not just 20 million versus five. Now it's 40 million versus five. And as it continues to grow with what these guys are getting paid, it makes it even harder to justify having cousins as your quarterback. If they were ready to win, if this was the 2018 roster with stars all over the field, pro bowlers, all pros in their prime, then I would say, okay, see what you can do and run it back and give it another shot. Because yeah, Marcus Mariota or Jameis Winston is not going to be better and is not going to give you a better chance here. But in this case, when you have almost a blank slate at so many positions on this team, if you get a second and a third back to clear all that

cap space and give quesadilla fomenta all the options in the world the quarterback and he gets to pick which way they should go i think that's a far better option and gets you closer to quickly getting better by creating that cap flexibility so i am talked very much into taking that return i don't know how people would feel about it but but I get the general sense, Chad, and then I'll talk you into something. I get the general sense, though, that overall Vikings fans, if you were to make that move and then they could start looking at the draft pick quarterbacks who just had a great week in Indianapolis, by the way, I think they would start saying like, OK, let's see where

this goes. Like, I think that even a lot of the people who spend their days online fighting with others about Kirk Cousins would, would sort of look at it and be like, well, this actually is really exciting to now have the freedom to build the roster with cap space and with the potential to draft the first round quarterback. One thing before I ask you to talk me into something that I was kind of thinking as you were talking is I think teams now are more willing to trade a lot of assets for a quarterback in part, you know, we always talk

about how it's a monkey see monkey do league and you copycat and all that um the last two super bowl winners you know one was let's sign somebody back up the brings truck for somebody in free agency tom brady goes to the bucks and one was a team like the rams pushing the chips all in saying i know that this quarterback got us to the super bowl but our goal isn't just to get to the super bowl and to win the super bowl let's give up a bunch of assets for somebody that we think is better. I don't know that that's actually the best path in one of those scenarios. You know, I think it's a little surprising to me that so many other teams are are copying that format because Brady was and is the greatest quarterback of all time. So, yeah, I think that there's a fair exception there.

And he was playing as a top five quarterback with the Bucs. And two, and I think Pro Football Focus has done a good job of outlining this. Like, yes, the Rams went all in, got Stafford, and it worked. They also had the very best roster outside of quarterback of the last 20 years. So yes, if you have the best quarterback of the last 20 years so yes if you have the best roster of the last 20 years then I think you can take somebody like Stafford or heck even Derek Carr Kirk Cousins and you might be able to win a Super Bowl but you have to have everything else in place the Vikings aren't even close to that right now not only that but they had a top three

coach in the league who had already taken jared goff to a super bowl and you know i like some of the things i hear from kevin o'connell i'm sure you do too but we don't know anything about him as a coach and if you set the expectation is well this guy will just be mcveigh uh okay well this doesn't always work out there have been a lot of offensive coordinators who have worked with somebody else went to another team and did not have the same results. See Matt Nagy, for example. I'm not saying that Kevin O'Connell is going to be Matt Nagy. It's just that if you were doing like an over-under, where will Kevin O'Connell rank among all coaches next year? It's probably in the middle somewhere. You wouldn't say, oh, he's going to be right after

McVay. That's someone who's done it for a long time and needed that one extra piece to be able to do the things that he could draw up. So I don't think there's any parallels. I think there's much more parallels between the Vikings and the Detroit Lions when the Lions traded away Jared Goff, or I'm sorry, traded away Matt Stafford for Jared Goff to be their sort of bridge quarterback to whatever else. And, you know, there's another report today that made me think this is even more lion's-y than people want to admit, which is Jason LaConfora said that the Vikings can be looking at moving Adam Thielen, moving Dalvin Cook, even potentially moving Eric Hendricks and clearing this whole

thing out and starting completely fresh, which would go very much against what the Wilfs have said of, oh, we want to be competitive. But I don't think any of us really ever bought that anyway. Like you can't say we want to be not competitive when you're asked. You have to say, oh, by the way, buy season tickets and buy our merchandise and we're not going to be good. All right. Exactly.

That's a fair point. Exactly. I love this game. And I usually like to find a little bit more challenging ones for you to talk me into, but we're going to start off with a softball because I think this is one that you may genuinely believe. So say the trade that I have just talked to you into goes,

talk me into, despite all of the chatter about how bad this draft class is, talk me into using the number 12 pick on a quarterback where the top options like Kenny Pickett have been criticized for very small hands, eight and a half inches, where a quarterback like Malik Willis has been professed by draft believers as somebody who's not ready to start year one and maybe not even year two. So despite all of that, talk me into drafting one of these rookie quarterbacks. Well, I believe the great Michael Scott said that you miss on 100% of the quarterbacks you don't draft. I think it was what he Wayne Gretzky. I'm not sure. One of those two said that, but I mean, that's the way I look at it is if you say, we know this class isn't going to be

anything and we are going to draft Jordan Davis, the defensive tackle and Jordan Davis turns out to be a great player, but Desmond Ritter also turns out to be a great player, but Desmond Ritter also turns out to be a great player and you didn't take him, which one matters. Jordan Davis is probably going to be really good, but does a nose tackle make any level of the difference that a quarterback does? If you pass on other positions in this draft, can you survive that? Can you find them? If you don't draft Tyler Lindbaum are you going to be able to find another center somewhere in this universe to hike the ball to your quarterback the answer is yes for every other position especially if you have the cap space

that we created can you find another quarterback on a rookie contract who can be good enough to get you to where even Jared Goff was able to get the Rams? Or can you find someone with a higher ceiling just laying around? You laid out who the free agent quarterbacks are. Do any of them have a high ceiling? Mariota, Bridgewater, Winston? Like, no, we know what those guys are. We know what all the quarterbacks you're going to potentially trade for are,

but we don't know what malik willis could be but we do know that he has the arm to be something and even with kenny pickett like far more athletic than i thought from maybe only seeing him a couple of times in college but his athletic numbers were terrific not concerned about the hand size thing they play an adult it'll be fine uh but like yeah okay soldier field but the bears are the bears still. So, uh, no, the way I look at it is there's no real evidence to show us that once quarterbacks are picked in the first round, that there's any way to predict which ones will be successful. And we do know that if you don't pick them, you don't get them and you don't get the 30, 40%.

Cause I know people will say, well, it's more likely that you draft someone who's not good than someone who is good but the likelihood isn't 50 to 1 that the guy will be bad it's more like 2 to 1 that the guy will be not a superstar quarterback and so i would take a 30 or 40 percent chance that the person is great the other thing is too that if kenny pickett or whoever you just draft at number 12, if that person does not work out, well, you're still in a position where you're building the roster. And next year, think of it this way. The Broncos did not draft Justin Fields and I criticized them for that. I thought they should have. And the very next year, Russell Wilson was unhappy and

they traded for him. We don't know who the unhappy quarterback could be for next year. Who's good. Who comes to you and says, Hey, trade for me because I want out of wherever I want to play for Kevin O'Connell in this building roster. And Justin Jefferson, if you are open at that position, you can make that trade. If you sign Kirk cousins to an extension, you can't make that trade. You can't be that team that's competing for a Russell Wilson who's out there. So I think that a draft and, and, and even one more point on this, the Packers drafted Jordan love and have never used them outside of one game. Did it ruin their franchise? Like, like we've made so much of it.

It meant nothing. They have a great team. So I, you know, I think that people are afraid of the guy going bust because of Christian Ponder. And I think it wasn't Ponder 12 and the 12th overall pick. I get that, but they drafted Laquan Treadwell and then they drafted Justin Jefferson. That's how it works, man. You just don't get it unless you try. And I will never buy into weak quarterback draft class if they're being taken in the first round now if it's 2013 and they're not being taken in the first round okay I'll believe you then but

if the NFL is evaluating these guys and saying three or four first round picks then they all have about the same chance to potentially be at least good enough to build an amazing roster around them and take you somewhere you can yeah i think i think the broncos point is a good one not only for the reasons you brought up but also two years ago or 19 um they drafted drew lock as i think the 42nd pick like early second round realized oh this this is not gonna work. He was a guy who, coming out, everybody proclaimed high ceiling. He's got a big arm. If you work with him, lower the turnovers, maybe this could work.

They realized quickly, no, this isn't going to work. And to your point, just because you draft a quarterback early doesn't mean you're tied to them for five years. When it's not working, when it's becoming not working, you can do what the Broncos did. They brought in a veteran, Teddy Bridgewater. And then after that, you just cut ties all together and go find somebody else. Right. And I know that we make it sound easy, but the point is if you're not locked into that position, then you always get more swings at it. And Washington, I think just made a bad move in

trading for Carson Wentz because he's not good at football. But Washington, I think just made a bad move in trading for Carson Wentz because he's not good at football, but Washington was also right there in the Russell Wilson running. And if they had selected Washington instead of Denver, because it was a different conference, I mean, you're talking about a whole different story. You're talking about a great roster with a quarterback who could instantly take Washington to the Superbowl. Like it seems like in the future of the NFL, there's just always going to be a guy, two guys, three guys that are doing a farve in some way or another, where they're a great quarterback who are on the market, whether it's a trade or free agent. And even if you draft Malik Willis and he turns out to not be good after

a year, which you can't really like say for sure, but you get a year in and you go, I don't really like what we see, but oh my, look, who's available. It's whoever. I mean, that's, I think that's going to happen almost every year. Here's what I want you to talk me into getting rid of everybody that is not named Justin Jefferson, Brian O'Neill, Christian Derrissaw. Is that it? I mean, that's it. That's it. Because is there anybody else who's like under 25 who is great on the team? Or they just drafted?

Irv Smith. Okay. Yeah. Include Irv Smith. There's no reason to get rid of Irv Smith. So everyone that is not nailed down just saying, you know what? Good times in the past, Delvin Cook. Good times, Adam Thielen.

Did you hear he's from Minnesota? But we need the cap space. We need the clean slate. Talk me into moving on from everybody. Here's my pitch for that, that I'll present to you, Matthew Wilf, co-owner of the Vikings, who desperately wants to make the playoffs every year. Your ultimate goal should not be to be the second or third wildcard team every year. Your ultimate goal should be to be a Super Bowl champion. Now, how are we going to do that when

we sit in this beautiful office overlooking these spacious practice fields at this brand new facility? We're on the whiteboard and we realize by looking at past Super Bowl winners, we either need a top five quarterback, a very good quarterback on a rookie contract, or an incredible roster outside of a top 15, top 12 quarterback. So first of all, it starts there and we look at our roster and realize, okay, option three is not going to work for us. We don't have a good enough roster. So that's not going to work. Top five quarterback, well, we don't have that either.

And top 15 quarterback on a rookie deal, we don't have that. So since we have none of that, let's do whatever we can to make sure we have one of those things. How do we do that? By acquiring draft picks, by building a very young roster, and then we can see what we have in the pieces around that. I think that starts with drafting a quarterback this year and then finding out if it's going to work. Like maybe maybe picket stinks. I don't know.

I have no idea. And I think NFL track records would tell you they really don't have much of an idea either. But if your gamble pays off, if you hit that one in three chance, the rewards are immense. Like I thought Josh Allen was going to stink coming out of college. Maybe I watched one game of his. I'm a Nebraska fan. He was horrible against Nebraska. I wrote him off forever.

Turns out I was very, very wrong. So if you hit on somebody like that, like the Bills are set up for the next decade. They arguably should have been in the AFC championship game. Not even arguably. They should have been in the AFC championship game. And that is the model to do it. And so if that means you have to trade Daniil Hunter, if that means you have to move on from Adam Thielen or Dalvin Cook or Eric Hendricks or these players who have been great for you,

great for your community, who have done awesome things for your organization. If the ultimate goal truly is winning a Super Bowl and not just reaching the playoffs, then I think you have to either commit to a full rebuild or a full, we are in, we are a competitor, we're going to win the Super Bowl. I would argue just by nature of your roster and salary cap situation, you are much, much closer to a full rebuild. And so instead of trying to straddle that and have one toe on each side, just commit and pick a side. And I'll argue that the rebuild should be the side. Well, I think that the bills are a great example because part of their whole

thing was they actually moved on from some very popular players. They got rid of Sammy Watkins, if I remember. And there were people who were going, wait, wait, wait, why are you moving away from this receiver who's been pretty good for us that you drafted really high? And I don't remember all the names, but I do recall because I still follow a lot of people who cover the bills and things like that of them being like, what are they doing? Why are McDermott and Bean just clearing this whole thing out? And the answer was you have to get your cap correct. And it was a mess when they arrived. And then you have so many options of the way to rebuild it in your own vision. And it is not easy for fans to look at

someone like Adam Thielen and say goodbye. But sometimes that's the price you have to pay because the NFL is the ultimate business when it comes to this. The salary cap makes it that way, that cap space is money. It's value. It's getting you the more you have, the more you can use and the closer you can get yourself to winning. And so every single player is a formula. They're not just a player how good he is. Adam Thielen is still good. We saw him last year, still good player. $17 million cap hit is way too much for what you're getting

from Adam Thielen. It's also a draft that's deep with really fast receivers that you might be able to take in the second round. And that's the NFL for you is you kind of move them in and move them out. And we use Denver as an example. Denver got a second and third to trade Vaughn Miller. Great move. How much did it hurt for Broncos fans to have Vaughn Miller traded? Probably a lot. I'm sure they were apoplectic. They were in the playoff race last year when they did this. It was a very savvy George Payton move because I don't know if some of that draft capital was used to get Russell Wilson, but I think it probably was, or at least it allows them to still have draft picks this year. That's kind of some of the things that the Vikings have to use. So, I mean, you can sing,

I will remember Delvin cook. I will remember Adam Thielen. But are those guys great for 2023, for 2024, to keep them around on big salaries? I think the answer is probably not. And I know how upset that makes people who buy number 19 jerseys or number 99 jerseys, but it's not about them necessarily. It's about how can you have the best vision for the entire franchise? And what I'll continue to say is if they do that, if Kweisi Adafo Mensah takes a completely cold hearted, soulless, do not care about whose jersey

is in your closet. This guy is gone for cap space type of approach i'll respect it because that's what belichick has done forever and it's these the hidden genius of bill belichick was looking at jamie collins and being like nah see ya not worth it nope next guy looking at gosh who was the guy mario anderson was a guy a long time ago richard seymour once upon a time. Um, it was, there was another one that was a huge one. I was into it. He was beloved. He's now in their ring of honor and you can still welcome them back and all that. But his big thing was I'd rather get rid of you one year too soon than one year to Chandler Jones was, um, an awesome Patriot, um, Gilmore, you know, that probably had more to do with uh contract stuff but anyway i appreciate

your point um i i have a couple that i want to throw your way i'm trying to decide i've got two written down here um do you want more of perhaps a positive one or a negative one or i guess one is player specific and one is more unit specific i'll let you pick which one you want. Well, give me the player specific one. Okay. So you may not perhaps outside of this segment agree with this, but- Okay. That's not the game though. The game has talked you into it no matter what you say. One of the arguments perhaps to extending Kirk Cousins or at the very least to avoiding a rookie quarterback is part of your role. Matthew Collar is the Vikings GM in this segment is to do everything you can to keep Justin Jefferson happy. You have an otherworldly talented player who is the cornerstone of this franchise. Talk me into keeping Justin Jefferson's mindset and just

considering where he's at as you pick the next quarterback, because, you know, talk me into, you know, being wary of an unproven Kenny Pickett type when you have a wide receiver that you need to keep happy. Okay. So normally what I would say here is look, Justin Jefferson is under contract. Uh, this man has no choice. He will be playing for the Minnesota Vikings for this year and next year. And the year after that, when they can fifth year option him, which they will. And then after that they can franchise tag him. Am I wrong? I mean, if you want to keep a player for a long time, you can keep them. Also, the ungodly amount of money that they will eventually offer him to continue playing football.

I don't think that sometimes too much gets made of these things because there's a few very notable examples of, well, this receiver wanted to go play somewhere else. One of them is Stefan Diggs. And so that means all receivers are just ready to, you know, trade me away if we're not winning at that moment or whatever else, but money certainly taught, but that's what you would normally say, or maybe put that aside. Like that would never be a fear of mine that Justin Jefferson was going to be upset because he was already unhappy with winning eight games last year and seven the year before.

So he'll be happy if you win, like regardless of who's playing quarterback. But your point is that you might have a transition season here. And I think that's where you have to communicate with Justin Jefferson and say, look, we're going to get you the football. You will have great numbers. I promise you that your job is to help kenny pickett become an instant star because what we've seen is that quarterbacks who are rookies that are dropped into good circumstances not the jets not the giants where they have dim-witted coaches with bad

rosters and clueless general managers that's what i hear all the time what uh what if we become the jaguars uh they hired urban meyer folks not kevin o'connell what are we talking about here uh they also you know i mean some of these teams have no receivers who were the jets quarterbacks throwing to last year i don't even know like they drafted elijah moore i'm not sure he even played much so like you are the reason that we can do this you are the reason that we believe that we can move on from Cousins because you will make everyone better. And here's my evidence.

Thielen and Stefan Diggs made Teddy Ridgewater better. Thielen and Stefan Diggs made Case Keenum an NFC Championship starting quarterback. They made Sam Bradford completely revamp what people thought of Sam Bradford. People thought Sam Bradford was a joke before he got here. And then he played great with those two receivers. Kirk Cousins, look at his stats in Washington. Had good receivers, right? Even better stats here with you, Justin Jefferson.

So that's your job is to take this quarterback and make him better. If we are going to go through some rocky times and Justin Jefferson says, I need a veteran quarterback instead. I'm okay with that because rookie quarterbacks struggle. And if they wanted to have a bridge quarterback, that's probably a good idea. I've heard people say, you don't want to waste a year of a rookie contract, but you usually kind of do anyway, if the guy's not ready, like, didn't they waste a year of Justin Fields's rookie contract? Probably. So I think with him, you would say, look, if we get you Marcus Mariota,

you're going to get the football. He's more of a playmaker. We could still win, like go out and make him better because we need you to do this. And I think that Justin Jefferson has no other choice, but to buy into that and keep putting up stats that nobody else has put up before. And I'll just tack on one more. I would use Larry Fitzgerald as an example. Look at who played quarterback with Larry Fitzgerald. Sometimes it was great. Sometimes it was terrible. He always had great numbers. So you're always going to have those great numbers. Make our guy better. Do us a a solid here make me right for this decision that i decided to make matt the gm two things on that the communication has to be the key

of yes you know your quarterback play might take a step back um but we have immense faith in you we want to build around you we're going to get you screen passes that any high school quarterback could throw, let alone the guy we drafted in the first round. You're going to help make us better. Communicating all that, incredibly important. And your point about wasting, this I guess wasn't the main point, but wasting a year of a rookie quarterback seems so silly. Patrick Mahomes, you technically wasted a year of his deal. And so that's not a grave concern. Right. Exactly. So you're talked into it. If you're Justin Jefferson, I kind of talked you into it and Justin Jefferson. All right. Here's the last one I have for you.

Okay. Talk me into anybody else in the NFC winning anything that is not the Rams or the Green Bay Packers. Okay. So I will talk you into this because while the Cowboys have their issues and I'm not sold on their offensive coordinator, while the Buccaneers no longer employ the best quarterback who's ever played the position. What you're forgetting in this question is that the NFC Championship game participants are projected to move on from their starting quarterback, who was fine, fine to above fine uh jimmy garoppolo and minnesota boy trey lance is about to head into an offense with shanahan that has done incredible things for quarterbacks that makes life easy for quarterbacks that gives them great matchups because of how well they run the ball and say

teams you want to you know sit back and play the pass fine we're going to run it for seven yards of carry we will run it down your throat until you give us a stack box and then we're going to ask our quarterback to make five or six big throws when he has that advantage against the stack box and Trey Lance with added mobility is going to be able to take that offense to another level it's already a great defense with D'Amico Ryans, a coordinator that the Vikings seriously considered. So they've got the coaching staff in place. They've got everything in place. Debo Samuel is incredible. Everything is in place, except the only question mark is quarterback. And if Trey Lance can even be just a little bit better than Jimmy Garoppolo, or he's not even going to

be better at certain parts than Jimmy Garoppolo. Jimmy Garoppolo, or he's not even going to be better at certain parts than Jimmy Garoppolo. Jimmy Garoppolo is a veteran. He gets the ball out quick. He'll make the smart reads. But Trey Lance, I think, gives you an X factor, a chance to move the ball downfield more, a chance for perhaps some rollouts with him, a little bit more mobility that if Trey Lance can be whatever, you know, they thought of when they drafted him, then the 49ers have a legit chance to be the best team in the NFC. Okay. I don't hate it. I mean, I think that's a pretty good argument because a lot of times we just never see that guy in the second year or third year exploding and becoming a great player. We see him as a rookie and we go, huhosh allen like come on man he's completing like 50 of his passes and then all

of a sudden it just happens and usually it correlates with having a great roster around you and the right system and all those things fit in trey lance his ceiling is pretty much through the roof with his physical talent and so i do buy that that's a realistic possibility. I'll give you one more team, the Philadelphia Eagles, if they acquired Deshaun Watson. Now I think there's, there's some moral conflicts that go along with acquiring Deshaun Watson that are a whole other podcast. But if he is playing for a team that won 10 games last year with Jalen hurts, I mean, they're a legit Superbowl contender right off the bat. And I also wouldn't completely dismiss Dallas forever

just on the basis that they're Dallas. Like, is Dak good enough to take a team through the playoffs? Is Micah Parsons good enough to keep dominating? Like, yeah, I think they have a pretty strong roster. So there are some contenders, but this is actually the hardest part, I think, for Vikings fans is because in 2019, the Vikings roster fell apart after that season into 2020. If they had started the full rebuild process, if they had moved on from Mike Zimmer, hired

Kevin Stefanski, hired George Payton, you might have Russell Wilson right now. Like you could have been that team. You could have been that team that built methodically as opposed to trying to grip and claw and slide down the mountain, uh, one year at a time, one year at a time, right. As they did and just waste two years of everybody's life, which is what they did. And, uh, you know, instead you could, and that, and that's the whole argument for like taking a long-term approach is that someday we'll exist two years from now, likely. And we'll look back and be like, Oh, remember when they did those things that people got really upset about?

Like those are actually good. And San Francisco, they moved on from DeForest Buckner and got a top draft pick and everyone was beside themselves. How can they move away from this great player? And then they used it to keep rebuilding their team. And that's kind of the always, you know, thing that teams are going through is these ups and downs.

Can I ask you for one more? Yes. So I got one more for you. Oh, okay. All right. Or do you, we can go either way. No, I just have a silly one for you, but. All right.

I'll keep it quick. You give me the silly one and then I'll, I'll let you keep it quick when I give you one more. Talk me into watching the USFL. Okay, I'm glad you asked, first of all. So this is, you know, of course, the USFL is returning. I love how you're trying to stall. So, you know, they got the teams and there's a league.

And I am talking to a fellow Maction watcher who is so sad and pitiful that they enjoy watching Tuesday mediocre middling football games. What if I told you you could have that in the spring and sometimes on the weekends? Like, sign me up. Heck yeah. If you like match and if you watch college football on any non-Saturday, there's no reason you wouldn't like the USFL. Is it going to be the highest level football you've ever seen? No, of course not.

But it's the spring. What else are you gonna be doing you're gonna be watching like first round nba or you know post masters golf tournament yeah no the answer is no no the answer is no sorry because we're talking you into watching um glorified action okay so i probably will watch the usfl i think it's very hard to talk anyone else into it though. The problem with comparing it to Maction is the Maction is a barrel of fun. And usually the games for these side leagues are just not, I mean, the Maction, you could, you could have a game that's 63 to 56 any Tuesday night with Maction. But what often happens is the defensive players are better than the offensive players in these

side leagues. And so you get like 13 to eight is your scores. And it's never all that fun. That's the problem. I'll watch, of course. But if you were giving me the choice between watching a golf tournament and the USFL, you're like, uh, I think even though I'm not a huge golf watcher, I'd probably watch more of that.

I hope that in the spring you and I are playing golf, actually, but I'm not feeling hopeful. So what was your last one for me before we wrap up? So my last one, you and I are standing next to each other in Indianapolis as Kevin O'Connell is talking and he makes mention at the podium of how excited he is to work with Garrett Bradbury and the fact that Bradbury is athletic and perhaps this is a piece that um we're going to be excited to use in the run game and in the pass game next year obviously you're not going to pick up his fifth year option but talk me into hope that Garrett Bradbury despite three um pretty disappointing seasons may experience even a minor level of bounce back with a new coaching staff yeah this is what makes the game so hard sometimes is uh i had usfl and you would care

you can't opt out of the question we should add that for the next round we should make the questions harder and you get one veto well normally they are but in this case it was sort of like should they trade kirk for this because this just happened and so we need to make it timely but normally it's like talk me into dan campbell coach of the year next year uh which put that one in for the future i'm thinking well maybe uh maybe there's something that I don't know, man. I mean, to tell you the truth, it's very hard to, after three years of such bad play to say that there's anything else there. If I were trying, what I would say is this, you got him for four years, you moved on from Mike Hughes too early and he played really well for another team.

Is there something there in terms of playing to more of his strengths, giving him a little more help, having the quarterback have more command over the calls, using screens more effectively, which I think was really his one big strength that they just didn't do last year. For some reason, they were one of the worst teams in the league when throwing behind the line of scrimmage. And I don't understand where that went because in 2019, Kevin Stefanski used that really well. In the last couple of years, they have not done it. That's the only thing I could come up with for trying to get the most out of him is when you got one more year on a rookie contract, you might as well see if there's

some sort of light bulb that comes on because offensive linemen develop quicker. But what I would do is have him compete with Mason Cole or someone else in training camp. And if he loses that competition, then you just move on from him and you just cut him. And, and we all carry on with our lives and say, it was a bust. Give him one more camp, see how he fits in O'Connell system. But I mean, I think we've, we've reached the T treadwell point where we all know there's no more well maybe this year i'll come up with some better routes like no i don't yeah the treadwell always had a good camp like what if bradbury just has a good camp and also treadwell is the perfect

comp because in that fourth training camp everybody was like why the f is this still got guys still here well you're paying him regardless you need 90 bodies so yeah like he's getting the paycheck whether he's here or not so fine throw him on the field and he ended up back after they had an injury so nobody makes training camp plays like laquan dreadwell i know or fights uh with antoine exum remember kirk cousins's first training camp when he was like I can see why this guy was a first rounder. I think he's going to do some big things for us. It would be pretty good to compile a list of Kirk Cousins compliments for random players like Josh Doxson.

There was one day when they brought in Josh Doxson. He must have answered five questions about Josh Doxson. Oh, I remember this play, and we had such good chemistry. I believe Josh Doxson. Oh, I remember this play and we had such good chemistry. I believe Josh Doxon played one down for the Vikings, if not maybe one or two. And that was it. And there was like this whole string. It's Steven Ridley theory of like everyone talking about, oh yeah, we're great. We're really great to have Steven Ridley here. We're thrilled. And then he gets cut like two days later. That was Josh Doxon. That's when it's mid-November and the writers

have like nothing else going on. Like, oh, they just signed a guy that kirk knows perfect everybody rushed to do your josh doxon features so um congrats to the listeners who made it more than 49 minutes because you got a great josh doxon reference indeed uh chad graph the athletic doing tremendous work and reporting on the quarterback situation and much more over there. So I appreciate all of your time. Always fun to play Talk Me Into. And I promise you that throughout this offseason, we will do it again very soon. And pray for warm weather because I have not swung the sticks

in a very long time. Nor have I, but I'll be bringing my veto card to the next round of Talk Me Into, and I'll bring some crazier questions for you. All right. Sounds good. Thanks, Chad. Thanks.