Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Star Tribune's Andrew Krammer talks JJ McCarthy's strong first impression

Episode Date: June 4, 2025

Matthew Coller is joined by Andrew Krammer of the Minnesota Star Tribune to discuss the strong first impression JJ McCarthy has imparted during Vikings OTAs.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of purple insider Matthew collar here and joining me on the show from the Minnesota star Tribune, Andrew Kramer, who has been tracking every single JJ McCarthy throw out at OTAs. He's got the completion percentage, touchdowns, interceptions, quarterback rating. He's got PFF grades for these OTA practices. We're going to break all of that down. And actually we're going to have a fun game of talk me into here on the show.

But I think Andrew, the only place to begin is what have you seen from JJ McCarthy out at OTAs? And I love to ask because I have not asked you what you've thought of him so far. So I want to see if it's what I've thought of him so far. Yeah, I see a young quarterback who's very much looks like he's taking the first reps with the first team offense and OTAs because he didn't do this a year ago, a year ago, he was throwing to Lucky Jackson and the third string

wide receivers with the third string offense because he wasn't even getting second team reps. So when he throws an interception to Isaiah Rogers on Monday, or he throws an interception to, I think it would have been Ivan Pace, uh, the previous OTA that we saw, I don't think these are things to get alarm about. I think it shows that this kid's got confidence to at least fire these passes and try things as JJ talks about. And I'm obviously using the context of the conversations we've had with JJ with these plays, cause he's talked about, I need to take these chances.

I need to figure out what I can be doing in these moments. And O'Connell's talked about as well, the very rigorous checklist that they go through on these plays working backward from the end result to coach through what he did right and wrong. And so I think you can see the methodical approach. It's not just what JJ is doing on the field. It's how this quarterback covenant is circling around him where it's Josh McCown, it's Jordan Trailer, it's Wes Phillips, all former quarterbacks.

It's the top former quarterback, Kevin O'Connell, coming in over the top and bringing all four quarterbacks in and giving them all lessons. Like this is very much the focus for that staff. I think he's he showed that he's got the arm to make all the throws. It's not Sam Darnold. Very few people are in terms of that arm talent. But I thought it's looked pretty good in what we've seen so far. I think so too and I've tried to follow a bit of a criteria for myself of evaluating OTAs because if we're being completely

fair, this is not the time of year where you should really be breaking down every single throw. Because as you mentioned, you have to see about the timing of certain things you have to learn about the windows. And sometimes if a guy has never run a particular rep before, and then all the sudden he does for the very first time and makes a mistake like, well, they're going to run whatever this base play was 50 more times before we get to the end of training camp and maybe by then he'll have it down.

So I've always thought that evaluating OTA performance, unless it really blew you away either in a good way or a bad way, was really tricky. But what I wanted to see more than anything, I thought we knew the arm would look very live, but I wanted to see if he just looks like he's confident and in command of running this offense as the first team quarterback. And that even goes along with making some mistakes. In the first practice we saw, I thought he was very good to that end. And then the second practice was a little more choppy. There were more moments where Kevin O'Connell

had to pull him aside and say, all right, well, here's what we're looking at. They've got the video board out there. So they'll stand and they'll break it down and things like that. But just from a vibe, just from a, does it look like a QB one? I think if we were watching this and it was a five-year veteran out there that was just learning a does it look like a QB one? I think if we were watching this and it was a five year veteran out there that

was just learning a new offense or getting comfortable, we wouldn't have any difference from what we've seen or we wouldn't have any different takeaways from what we've seen and be like, well, okay, it looks like it's coming along but there's some bad moments and there's some good moments and that's what we expect from OTAs but it looks like he is the leader of the team and when we hear people talk about him, that seems to be really shining through,

that he is already taking this onus on himself to be the guy, that he hasn't been like, oh, okay, well, you guys are the veterans or something like that. It's like, no, this is JJ McCarthy's franchise. Here we go. Yeah, what did you think of Harrison Phillips talking about the former NFL franchise that you used to be around in Buffalo and saying that he reminds me of

Josh Allen with his confidence. I mean, that, that to me was, um, a very strong and, and if hair, as you mentioned to Harrison in the press conference, he was very jacked up. So he was very hyped up to, and so that comment came out and take it with a great assault, but, uh, and so that comment came out and take it with a great assault. But just saying that JJ knows and understands the power he has in this organization and walks around acting like a young leader and like you're saying, pulling people in to conversations and introducing people and trying to, they're saying is we can't have unique results without unique relationships, those kinds of things that they want to embody. So for a 22 year old, this is all important too.

I think fans might be like, oh great, this is really June football talk here. But this is really important because JJ was the youngest of those six first round quarterbacks taken a year ago. And for him to be ready to take over arguably the team that's most ready to win outside of maybe Washington, because they got far last year, I don't know, of those of those teams that those quarterbacks landed on. This kid needs to be ready. He needs to be mature. He needs to be better than Trey Lance was for San Francisco when they felt they were ready to make that leap with a young quarterback. So this is not an easy spot for him to be in. And right now mentally is obviously the most important thing for him to figure out

the playbook, figure out his confidence and get all that settled in. So I remember before the fateful day in 2018 when the Vikings played the Buffalo Bills and it was one of the biggest disappointments of the Mike Zimmer era, I think in that game. But there was a friend of mine for the Bills who came up to me and we were chatting, just, you know, catching up. And I said, well, what do you think of Josh? And he said, he's very raw. It's going to take a while, but everybody knows he's the dude. Like everybody on the team, all the veteran players. And I think Jeremiah Searles has talked about this clearly.

It rubbed off on Harrison Phillips. They realized like, okay, this kid has come in and he's done the work, which is where it really starts. And I think that if you're one of these veteran players, you love when somebody is a football junkie. And he was telling us Harrison Phillips, a story about JJ McCarthy coming up to him after he got injured and saying, teach me more about defense, help me understand what you're doing over there so I could be better at my job. So they see a confidence in him. They see a personality in him that I think welcomes people. As you mentioned, he's not like off to the side. And I think of the stories about either was it Justin Fields or Caleb Williams where they talked about well, the veteran quarterbacks would kind of talk amongst themselves

and he was kind of left on the side. I think that might have been Fields like there's no leaving JJ McCarthy out of the conversation on a football field. Like he is going to be there. His energy, his enthusiasm, he's constantly high five of people, dapping people up, bouncing around. Like he's moving at a really high pace, I think out there,

which I know these are small things, but they're also things that look like a franchise starting quarterback should be doing. And when we can't really stand behind him and judge every single read at this point, we are kind of just soaking in what are people taking, taking from him who are playing out there. And then what does the practice look like? Does it look like it's being run by a professional quarterback?

But this is the reason you draft JJ McCarthy. It was on raw arm talent, which I think we knew that he had and is probably stronger than a lot of the analysts had projected, I think. But a lot of it is he's gonna work like crazy. He's gonna be a great leader. He's gonna connect with his teammates.

And I think the biggest thing is when he goes to that podium, are we talking to young Kevin O'Connell or are we talking to JJ McCarthy? Like those two seem to speak very much the same language with each other, which is probably more important than anything that they can communicate and throw things back and forth. And when McCarthy said that he goes home and takes notes off of every practice rep and comes back in and then goes over them with KOC and McCown It's like he's doing everything right at this time of year Yeah, he is and that's something that you know, Kevin O'Connell is the quarterback mentor

Whisperer, you know, he's got to love working with this kid even going back to their weekly game planning sessions when he was on IR last Year, so they've built that rapport and they might have the most foundation or the biggest foundation to build off of among anybody JJ's been with on this team because he was so isolated last year in the trainer's room while not practicing and not playing. So at least he does have that with O'Connell. That's the guy who's going to be in his headset.

We're already seeing it in OTAs where they're phoning the plays into the headset and trying to, as you talked about, trying to get him to operate this with confidence, operate the huddle. JJ's talked about getting some cadences wrong. Like it's even, it's just small things like that, where when you're working with a new center, obviously on a new team, but a veteran center and Ryan Kelly, who very much knows what he wants and how to do it, this is something that's going to, it's going to force JJ to get up to speed with some of those veteran teammates. And obviously a veteran run offense that has a pretty deep playbook at this point. So I think it's fascinating to see those guys come together and also JJ and Justin Jefferson too, because this is the most that they've worked with at any stage. I think people have said like, well,

didn't they see each other last year? They didn't just meet. And it's like, well, no, but again, McCarthy was on the third team offense. The amount of passes he threw to Jefferson last year, they didn't just meet and it's like, well, no, but again, McCarthy was on the third team offense. Um, the amount of passes he threw to Jefferson last summer, we could probably count between our 20 fingers. I just don't think there were that many that we saw. So, uh, he's, he's obviously gotten that underway now with Justin Jefferson and that's the next most important relationship that has to be forged. Well, and I think Justin Jefferson has really come to understand what he needs to be within this franchise.

And that's something you don't know when someone becomes a star player is that there's just steps to this in the NFL. Like first you have to prove you could play in the league. And then the second step is you become a star player who puts up numbers. That's Justin Jefferson. But then the contracts, the monies, the Met Gala's apparently come along with

this for Justin Jefferson and with great power comes great responsibility. And I think players often divert one way or the other when it comes to that. Are you going to take that great responsibility and kind of divert it and say, it's not my job. I'm just here to put up numbers. Or are you going to say that the success of this team this year is on my shoulders? And we really heard that from Justin Jefferson the other day. And I thought that his answer sounded when I asked him about taking on more of

a leadership role, it sounded very self-aware and mature where he said, you know, before I was kind of shy and things like that, but I proved to myself last year that I could be that leader. There is nothing more important to JJ McCarthy than having Justin Jefferson in his corner. We know that Jefferson is a King maker, but also the ups and downs of a season are crazy. I mean, even last year they lose a game at Jacksonville and everybody wants Sam Darnold thrown over the edge of the ship. It's like,

they won that game by the way. And they won that game. And then the reaction, the reaction was like, he's, you know, Darnold the season's falling apart. That's just one game in the middle of the year. That's how intense it is. I think that Jefferson having been through this, having seen many ups and downs with this franchise, being there for JJ McCarthy, I don't know that there's anything more important for him.

Yeah. Remember Justin Jefferson yelling at Kirk,, Kirk throw the bleep and ball and that was like his first or second season in the NFL. Like these things get rocky and they can get rocky quick if that ball is not coming out where it should and you're losing potentially a game that they didn't lose last year. And I do think one more point on McCarthy is that one thing we're not going to know in terms of his setup and going back through how, how Quasey and O'Connell have talked about this off season, they've talked about winning fights in different styles, being able to go into the postseason and being ready for any kind of fight that's thrown their way. And they didn't feel they were doing that last year.

And obviously it means that they didn't feel they were physical enough when they bring in the run game stuff, the interior offensive line rebuild all that We don't know how that's gonna coalesce and come together and probably won't until training camp with Will Fry sidelined Christian Darasaw probably not getting back in there until mid training camp maybe so That is going to be a huge component because some of the stuff you did hear about McCarthy coming out of Michigan And is was that his red zone decision-making wasn't always the best. It wasn't always consistent and Michigan didn't ask him to do a ton in those scenarios because they had such a great running game.

Obviously. I think this is all very calculated, not just to make the Vikings more well-rounded offense to have a good running game. Finally, one that can punch the ball in, but also to compliment a young quarterback who's going to really need it. If they ask McCarthy to throw 35 touchdowns and 25 of them are inside the red zone, like Sam Darnold's were last year, that's not a recipe that I think O'Connell is going to want to go into the year with.

And so if they can truly get these other things around JJ going, he's going to look that much better as he's learning like we're talking about. I am so interested. This is a great place to start off our game of talk me into which for those who have not maybe heard it before. I don't know. Are you okay? Are you safe? Yeah, I'm good. Something just fell off the desk. We're good. The way that we do it is no matter what the other person asks you to talk them into you have to try like even if you don't believe it you have to try.

So how about this I want you to talk me into because I was watching practice the other day thinking about well what's the offense really going to look like with JJ McCarthy versus Sam Darnold are they really going to push it down the field as much and I think the answer is yes I think think that they want to do that. That is how they play offense. They are not going to suddenly become a quick pass low crossers type of team like they're going to throw it down the football field. I want you to talk me into JJ McCarthy leading the National Football League in yards per attempt this year. Okay. Yeah, that's doable and not to say that it's just that easy, like snap your fingers. Yeah, he's gonna do it. No, but like this kind of offense, I'm sure if you go back and look at who has led the NFL in that yards per attempt, whatever. My

guess is it's going to be teams that come from the Sean McVeigh, Kyle Shanahan branch of offenses, which Kevin O'Connell runs. It's going to be a run, a run centered at least, or one that's a little bit more neutral play calling offense that then tries to leverage the play action into explosive plays. And that's what the Vikings want to do. They just kind of didn't haven't become that really because they've had some consistent running from Aaron Jones.

The first year with Dalvin Cook, they had some home run plays but outside of that they have not really had the one the run game that forces defenses to truly stack the box to truly care about it to truly worry about it above that they have not had the personnel to take advantage even of the light fronts that they get with Justin Jefferson and Jordan Addison so I think shifting this the way that they have Will Fry's, Donovan Jackson, Ryan Kelly, if they can truly establish one of the NFL's better run games that forces defenses to think about sending two safeties

back and clouding Justin Jefferson back there. That is how you could see the defenses creep up. That's how you could see this become again and maintain one of the most explosive passing games in the NFL. And that That's how you could see this become again and maintain one of the most explosive passing games in the NFL. And that is how JJ McCarthy could do that. Much like, I think Brock Purdy's been up there in those numbers. And that's just because they're a good run team that leverages play action better than anybody and sets up receivers to catch and run better than anybody. That's all stuff that Sean McVey and Kevin O'Connell do as well. They just

haven't had the personnel in Minnesota, I think, to leverage both the throwing game and the running game and kind of marry it, as they say, as well as they want. So I don't it's not going to be easy. Like he's going to have to come in and be good right away. But I think he's going to need the run game to do that. I do not think he's going to come in and be Sam Darnold, which was chicken with a head cut off, run around by time and then boom, make the perfect play.

Like that kind of stuff you shouldn't expect at least from a rookie quarterback. Yeah, with Sam Darnold last year, I'm mostly talked into this with Sam Darnold last year, the early part of the season, he wasn't doing so much of that out of structure. I think that sort of came from the middle of the season when teams started sending a lot of blitz looks that the offensive line could not handle because there was a new left tackle and they did not communicate very well on a lot of those stunts and blitzes. Arizona is where we really saw this but even the Atlanta Falcons they messed up the coverages behind it and gave up some big plays but their blitzes were working. Remember when Darnold makes that incredible play to Justin Jefferson downfield,

that's a free runner coming right at him that he had to spin around and run away from. You're right that you don't want too much of that, but the early part of the season, I thought they were playing the pass off of the run much better than they had in the past. And Sam Darnold was running a lot of play actions and bootlegs and stuff like that, that you would see in more of a older Shanahan type of offense. I thought that KOC did show us that he can make some adjustments there because with Kirk, it felt like he wanted him in the shotgun all the time and he wanted him doing a bunch of different things, a bunch of different motions, all this stuff.

And I remember Jefferson at one point last year saying that he told O'Connell, well, we need to simplify this a little bit. Like just let us get open and play ball because it's not Kirk. The thing he didn't say was it's not Kirk who's been in the league for this long and has all these different experiences to run a million different options. And I think with JJ McCarthy and his lack of experience, you have to kind of do it the same way as Sam Darnold. Just looking to your point about the run game,

looking at yards per attempt leaders last year, there's something you'll find in common here. Lamar Jackson, Jared Goff, Brock Purdy, Jalen Hertz, Jordan Love, Sam Darnold and Baker Mayfield. All of those quarterbacks had good running games, good play action games that worked off of them. And I'll throw the Vikings in there, at least of having a competent running game with Aaron Jones last season.

Part of it is though, can they really stick with that? Is it going to be good enough? I have also gone the direction of, Hey, the personnel is going to dictate it. In 2022, a major reason for their pass run also gone the direction of, Hey, the personnel is going to dictate it in 2022. A major reason for their pass run ratio was the type of games that they were playing. They were just playing from, we got to come back at the end of every game and throw 30 straight passes and stuff like that. Whereas last year it did shift a little bit because they were

leading in games much more, but KOC is KOC. I mean, he's even said to us, it's going to be a passing first offense, then it's never going to be anything but that. Yeah. And you've got the GM, the, the analytical GM who very much knows the passing play is, is more efficient than a running play, even though he's standing up there at his free agency press conference saying the run game is cool again, you know, the NFL is cyclical and the run game is, is in, in vogue again.

And it is, however, you still have Justin Jefferson, Hawkinson, Addison, and you got this young quarterback now that needs to maximize all of those guys. And I, you're right. I don't think O'Connell is going to be able to help himself and just say, you know what, yeah, we'll, we'll keep running the ball just because that's a safe play. Um, I think Kevin's shown that he's willing to take chances and be an aggressive head coach and an aggressive play caller. I should amend it too, because you made great points.

Like the Vikings obviously had a better running game last year. Aaron Jones runs for 1,100 yards. That doesn't happen without creating opportunities downfield for the passing game too. Now though, they might be able to finish some drives with the run game in ways that outside of the Falcons game last year, they just didn't really do. They didn't punch it in much at all last year. So this franchise has, I think, the fewest rushing touchdowns next to the Jets over the last two years. So they need to figure out a way to fix that component of it. And if they do, I think that could certainly obviously help McCarthy as well.

But to your point about talking you into the, the leading the league and yards per pass, um, they, they could be up there, uh, with the talent that they have, obviously, and with Aaron Jones running the way that he has. What would you like me to talk you into? Oh boy. Um, talk me into this team being the best one in the NFC North this year. Okay. So the Lions I think are the easiest one to knock down a peg because it's not just

Frank Ragnow retiring and we heard Harrison Phillips talk about how much respect he had for Frank Ragnow who is truly one of the elite players in the NFL. Centers never get any love, they don't get a lot of attention, but man when you have one that's that good it is worth its weight in gold. There is nobody who they're going to put in that is just going to be Frank Regnau, first round draft pick, one of the best players I thought in the entire NFL, that's hard to replace and that's the head of the snake for

that entire offense and then also Kevin Zeitler, who was a top five run blocker last year and a very good pass blocker. Still, I think Zeitler has been one of the best offensive linemen of the last decade and you lose him, which I thought was kind of odd that they did not try to resign him and they made some other moves rather than keeping him. Maybe there's an injury issue that they're concerned about,

but nonetheless, this guy was one of the best and now they're replacing him with Tate Ratledge. What is he a second round draft pick? I mean, that's okay, but we know about this, you know, rookie offensive lineman it's hard to rely on them. And then also Taylor Decker is not the guy that he was five years ago either. Suddenly the Detroit lions offensive line looks a little more spotty and losing Ben Johnson is probably a big deal.

I don't think you could just replace the play caller and be like, oh, just call the same place. Just do the same stuff. Just throw it to Dan Skipper. It'll be fine. That doesn't mean I think that the Detroit Lions are falling off the map, but I do think regression is coming for them. The Packers are probably the same team as they were before. I think they'll catch a few more passes than they did last year with their messy receiver room, but it's still not proven. We don't know what Matthew Golden is going to be and where else did the Green Bay Packers get better?

They're still a very good team, but they just did not get better at any position really in the off season except for overpaying a guard who's probably just a guy. And then in Chicago, do I have to say anything? I mean, until proven otherwise, you're still Chicago. But this, this point should really be more about the Minnesota Vikings than the other teams, that the Vikings went into the off season with a 14 win roster. They brought back all the key pieces of that 14 win roster and then added a ton of talent around JJ McCarthy, we all know that this is going to come down to McCarthy, but look around the league I mean look at the quarterbacks that I just mentioned

Okay, Lamar is an absolute freak show put him aside one of the greatest players in NFL history Jared Goff Brock Purdy Jalen hurts. What are these? Baker Mayfield. What do these guys have in common? They have great supporting casts around them and when they do, they are able to raise their level to play off even Super Bowl caliber quarterback play. If Jalen Hertz is playing for the Jaguars, he's probably still good, but he's certainly nowhere close to this. And we've seen Jared Goff when he's playing for a poor team. JJ McCarthy has the best setup. I think for an offense around him that we have seen since I arrived here in 2016,

I don't think there's an offense that has been put together, offensive line, running backs, wide receivers coaching that would contest this group. And to me, that's the thing that's going to drive JJ McCarthy's success all the way to the top of the NFC North. I think that the 2017 team, maybe, um, in terms of offense talent, but you're right. I mean, Justin Jefferson's, you know, obviously the best player on either of those teams.

Um, I want to press you on the Bears point a little bit more because arguably Caleb Williams has the highest ceiling of any quarterback in this division. No, you're right. And I think if we're talking about raw talent, he is the most talented quarterback in the entire national football conference. But as we see from Anthony Richardson in the AFC and many quarterbacks in the past, raw talent is not always enough. I do think with the Chicago Bears,

when you go through last year, they had started out maybe four and two or something like that. And then the wheels come off completely. The drama is just through the roof with Matt Eberfluz. He doesn't know how to form a T with his hands. I mean, all sorts of stuff just happening there that caused that thing to fall apart. and still a lot of their losses are

Close losses that they were in a lot of those games including against the Minnesota Vikings where it had to go to overtime and we Do know that that tends to regress one way or the other like if you have a bunch of one-score wins It'll go back the other way if you have a bunch of one-score losses It probably means you're fairly close Ben Johnson has done an amazing job of rebuilding that offensive line. I still don't understand why Joe Tooney was traded for almost nothing, considering he's been one of the best offensive linemen in the league over recent years. It's just that I think the Bears deserve skepticism because they've always done this. And I know

it only takes one year, but Caleb Williams is really going to have to show me that he can win on a consistent basis because if there's one person who could have guided them through the roller coaster last year, it was him. He did not have to stand there and let the clock run out on Thanksgiving Day. He could have called his own timeout. He was the one that didn't have to go tell a reporter that he wanted to be a Minnesota Viking. Like there's a lot of things with him that he could have, I thought, not taken 68 sacks, got rid of the football.

I really think he struggled to see the field. And when I think Justin Fields is a really good example of when a guy doesn't see the field very well, it's very inconsistent because those reads better be wide open or it's not going to be there at all. And that to me is often a fatal flaw. Like this is one of the things about McCarthy that makes me think he could be very good is we saw even in the preseason game, we saw it in training camp like this dude can see the field. He can anticipate where things are

going to be. I don't see that from Caleb Williams and I don't think that you could just make your bones entirely on off schedule type of place. Yeah, where he spins away from Andrew Van Ginkle unblocked. And was it Deandre Swift he found down the sideline on that play? Yeah, those are the kind of things that you see and you go, wow, this kid, you know, first overall pick. But then you hear him complain about the coaching last year and complain about how he wasn't given the pointers on where to look on his different drops and matching the feet with the eyes and all that stuff. Well, now with Ben Johnson and the staff, there's going to be nobody else to blame.

You've got all the talent around. You've got Romo Dunze. They draft the tight end. They redo the offensive line. You know they're going to want to run the ball, um, with, but with bad Johnson. So I think that's the fascinating thing is, is can Caleb now rise above all these excuses and become the quarterback everybody thought he would be seeing him in Chicago last year, uh, in that Viking game though, made me think that this he's, he's got something to him. He erased, what was it a 13 point deficit? I can't remember what he came back to tie that game, um, and force overtime on the Vikings, but it was a phenomenal performance from him. And if you can string that together for four quarters and they have, they

have a really talented offense. I think this is a Chicago team that if he can put it together, which is a huge, if, uh, that's, that's one of those teams that the Vikings might go. Oh God, that's, that's a headache again. And it should be, I still don't think also that their defense is really there. That's a multi-year type of build. They, I think they do have a very good coach from a play calling perspective, but in Chicago, there is a level of pressure that has broken many, many men

over the years and that's what they're going to be facing. If they go one and two to start the season, I mean, that place is going to be completely losing its mind. And just one more point on Caleb Williams. The game we saw, it was like watching the Harlem Globetrotters. It was all sorts of, I mean, he's spinning the ball on his finger and also, you know, he's doing crazy stuff.

But if we're judging basketball players and we're trying to figure out who's going to be the best down the road. Is it the guy who makes the most half court shots or is it the guy who finds his spots play smart moves the basketball when he's supposed to like trick shots are great, which is what Caleb Williams has in his bag like crazy, but the down to down consistency, that's where people never talk about this with Alan and my homes,

but that's their secret. It's like, yeah, they're gonna make freakish plays that make highlight reels and you're gonna watch red zone because of it. But both of them are super consistent. Josh Allen never takes sacks. It's wild how he never takes sacks. Patrick Mahomes gets rid of the football quickly,

goes through his reads. And then occasionally, once every five downs those guys have to do something if you are driving your success with running around and making crazy plays that's some days that's gonna work some days it's not and I still see them as like an eight-win team because of that and then they'll be talking about oh well we made progress and so forth that to me that is still where the Bears live in this world now Now I want you to talk me into on the defensive side of the football one thing that the Vikings did that will be like wow that

turned out amazingly. How about that move they made and then one thing that they did where we're going yeah I thought that would be better. Um, I'm going to say, and maybe this is just prisoner of the moment because Isaiah Rogers looked decent, you know, Monday and it's shorts and you know, then they're not playing real football yet. But I do think Rogers brings a speed and a youth at corner that after you just got done with Gilmore and, and Shaq Griffin, that might look a little different. He might return some of those interceptions for pick sixes, maybe. If he can develop and make more plays on the ball and keep that consistent role that frankly,

he just didn't have in Philadelphia in a deeper room, I think that could be somebody that you look back on and go, that was a bargain at a critical spot that they really needed to hit. He could also be their kick returner. He was fielding a lot of kick returns in practice the other day. And this is going to be a play that we're going to see more often now with the touchback getting moved up to the 35. So, I think in general, he's somebody that they're going to really hope takes that step and I wouldn't be shocked if he does. The one that I think, you know, if those two defensive linemen don't stay healthy,

if Hargrave and Allen, cause that's a lot of hype for two former all pros, second team all pros, pro bowlers. Um, I think that's a lot of hype for them. They need to stay healthy and they just haven't. Obviously they're coming off injured years. And this goes for the offensive linemen too. Ryan Kelly, namely, not so much Will F Fries although he's coming off that broken leg but they're gonna need those guys or at least the depth when Harrison Phillips talks

about we've got waves we can send it's really easy to say that and Harrison knows this in May and June coaches have a lot harder time saying that in October when you're two and two and you really need to win this game and you know what that second wave really wasn't getting it done for me in week four so sorry Jonathan Allen play your 60th or 70th snap of the game. They need those young guys to step up and take some wear and tear off of or some rotation snaps off of Allen off of Hargrave maximize those guys the most that they can. You know, Brian Flores and that staff are going to find ways to be creative, to get different packages in there. It's just a matter of does that personnel, whether it's a

Tyrium Ingram Dawkins, whether it's, um, Taki Taimani, Jalen Redmond, whatever. Can those guys take advantage of it and not force a 29 year old Harrison Phillips and his 30 and 32 year old teammates to be out there so much. Cause if you're, if they are, and we get to November and December, it's not going to look very good. It's going to look like maybe Harrison Smith has kind of at the end of some of these seasons here where he's playing so much football. So I like these picks and I like Isaiah Rogers and the look of him as well. And I think even though he runs a 4.2, I think 40, under 4.3, he doesn't look like a super small guy.

Like when I think of that, I think of John Ross, who was that little tiny receiver who ran a 4.2, but he's got some thickness to him and watching him accelerate to intercept JJ McCarthy was okay, welcome to the Vikings, my friend. Uh, I still would advocate them getting Jalen Ramsey if they want to just to try to be the best version of themselves. But if they don't go out and get Jalen Ramsey, then Isaiah Rogers, there's a

ton of pressure on him. And I do think that he has a higher ceiling than what he's been given the opportunity to show in previous places where the Colts had a veteran defense that they were trying to win with and then he has the suspension for the gambling issue then comes back and he's a member of the Eagles. But when he was given starting opportunities, he did play very well for the Philadelphia Eagles, which I think is why he's here. That's one that I think I have a good sense for just because he's played enough in the league. The guy that I would say might end up being a regret and we are all high on this guy and for very good reason is Theo Jackson. I mean, look, I think Theo has the goods. I think he can play.

I know, I know. I think he could play. Harrison Smith thinks he could play. My goodness. He like called out the Titans. How could you let this guy go? But if we're being more rational based on the sample size that we have, it's only a couple of games that he's ever played in the NFL. And they are taking a risk there by letting Cam Bynum go.

And I don't think Cam Bynum was worth $60 million to this Vikings team where they had to put a bunch of money into the defense but Bynum and Harrison Smith were so much in lockstep back there that those two had their own language between them now you're asking someone else to come in Harrison has been a kingmaker at that position we know that over many years but now in his older years I don't know that Harrison Smith drags along that position the same way that he used to in the past. They're going to need a lot from Theo Jackson there. And the other one that they might regret, okay, this is like a deep in the weeds might regret,

and this could actually change. I think they might regret letting Jonathan Bullard go or not re-signing Jonathan Bullard because when we look at this D line, Harrison Phillips is very good at stuffing the run. He's made his bones with that, but he's not the biggest nose tackle. So we're not talking about, you know, Pat Williams or something like that. So he can be moved at times and the two other guys that they have are not, that's not their focus. Like their focus is getting into the backfield and sacking the quarterback, which I'm all for. And they haven't had, but there's not that other guy that's situational.

It's first down in 10. You're playing the Ravens, Derek Henry's on this team. Seguin Barkley's on this team that you're playing the Detroit Lions. And Bullard was a very good run stopping player. He was not going to get in the backfield, but for 400 snaps or something, I think there could be some value there unless Takita Imani is that guy, which his name has been said so many times, but how many snaps has he actually played in the NFL? It was only interesting that he made the team, but they just don't really have that guy on

the roster right now. Yeah. When Taki was on IR last year, I think when Jalen Redmond started getting more run, they would put him at nose too, because they just didn't have a ton of options. But you're right. I think Bullard, he said last year, I feel like I'm getting better with age, which is weird to say. And it was hard to argue with them because they were fourth in the NFL last year in yards per carry allowed at four yards. They were very good, very good against the run consistently. The only people that ran on them were typically quarterbacks.

The running backs had a hard time no matter who you were. So for them to shift this up as much as they did, they're really putting a lot of faith into that front seven. Not just the front guys up there, but also Cashman, Pace, Van Ginkle, when he moves back there, trusting that this is going to be a similar kind of run fitting group as it was without Bullard. And I thought Tillery came on and played well too, although he was probably the weakest

link of that group last year. So yeah, that's an interesting one. I do think this is still, if they're healthy expect you expect steps to come from these young guys, Redmond, Levi Drake Rodriguez, Taimani. If they can truly get some kind of rotation and they're healthy, this should be better than what it was last year, I think. But if you lose a guy and suddenly Jalen Redmond starting, you're going to be missing Jonathan Bullard potentially. And I'll give you my four move that they're going to be like, Oh

man, thank goodness we made this move. Eric Wilson to me is the thank goodness we made this move. Even the other day when Josh Metellus wasn't doing the seven on sevens, Wilson's become a very good player in the league and played I think 650 snaps or something like that for a good Packers defense last year. And we saw him moving around. Oh reminder, Eric Wilson is a very interesting player for Brian Flores. He is fast, but he's got a toughness element to him. I don't think he was ever really big enough to be that every single down, like run stuffing kind of first down linebacker. But for Flores, he just operates a little bit differently. And I really liked the way that he looked in this defense. One guy went down last year and you were talking about common Grigio Hill,

a career special teamer having to play a ton of snaps. And then eventually they were just like, ah, no, let's just play Josh Mattelis at linebacker Wilson allows you to even be a rotational player. But if one guy gets banged up, you can just slot him. If, if Van Ginkle got banged up and you were starting Turner, you could slot him into that, that rotational role and have him rush the passer. If Cashman gets banged up, he's been around long enough. He could call the defense instead of asking Ivan pace to do it, which I

think has been problematic for the last couple of years when they've had, like now they have a guy who knows what he's doing in that position. I that's one of those, those moves. You reference the 2017 team. It's one of those moves that like the 17 team when Everson Griffin missed the game they had B Rob and there wasn't a lot of injuries but it was like you know Mackenzie Alexander was a young player who could kind of work into a spot if somebody was hurt. They had these little

areas of depth that I think they have not had since and we were talking about if one guy goes down, you are in super trouble for many years. And I don't really feel that way now. Yeah, I'm glad you brought up Eric Wilson. I'd forgotten about that move. And it's an important one because with Mattelus, they're not gonna have the freedom to move him up there

as much anymore without cam buying them. Unless you think Theo Jackson is gonna be just this one for one replacement that plays that much, you won't be able to take Josh and move him up as often as you want to, because you just don't have potentially the safety that you trust back there unless Theo earns that much trust, which would be interesting to see if he can this year. So Wilson was phenomenal.

And Green Bay obviously is somebody who earned an undrafted spot here in Minnesota way back when Vikings fans will remember. And he comes back now wearing his old buddy, Anthony Barr's number. I remember Barr mentioning about Wilson not too long ago, because Barr was on the 2023 team. I can't remember which team it was, but he had mentioned about Wilson. He said, the only guy who's got his work ethic that I've been around is Daniel Hunter, which it's, it's pretty lofty company to be with.

And I think, I think that's how Wilson makes such a long career out of being an undrafted free agent. Eric Wilson is a guy that like, look, there's a lot of people who work out in the NFL. But when you stand close to Eric Wilson, you're like, whoa, there is a 0.02% body fat on this man. It is, he is an impressive player. Okay, so I want you to give me one more

and then I want a silly one from each of us or something that's a little bit oddball because I have one for you. So give me one more serious one and then I'll give you an oddball one. All right, talk me into this cornerback and we talked about Rogers a little bit, but talk me into this cornerback room in general being enough, like how,

how could the Vikings not add a Stefan Gilmore again come August? Cause it seems like with what they're dealing with, they're going to have to do that. Well, I mean, I think bringing back Byron Murphy was super vital not only just from like him being a good player and getting a lot of interceptions, but also from the communication standpoint, which seems to be as important or more important than actual talent in this defense.

Like knowing what you're doing over speed, size, that kind of thing, because there's so many different looks, so many different approaches to coverages that change every single week. And that's Brian Flores. Part of his brilliance is, okay, first of all, he's very good at drawing it up, but you could draw it up all day long. And if they can't run it, then you are bleep out of luck, right? But instead he has made sure that he has the players,

the Van Ginkgels, for example, the Cashmans, and I think Byron Murphy, who could play inside, outside, communicates well, operates kind of as one of the leaders of that defense and being they call it hub of communication. But I think that's super important for this defense. And what we saw last year is even though Shaq Griffin had had a couple of down years in the league, he played really well in that third cornerback role and Stefan Gilmore was I don't know, is he running like a four seven at this point in his career and yet played really, really well.

So I think as long as Isaiah Rogers, Mackay Blackman can get it, then they can be fine and they've got more physical talent than what the team had last year. The one concern that I still do have, and I know it's talk you into, but it's worth bringing up is just the next layer down. We saw Mackay Blackman not practice the other day and Jeff Okuda is out there and it's always exciting to get a former top draft pick, but there isn't much evidence that Jeff Okuda can really do this. Maybe he can here, but that is a

scary proposition. Dwight McClother and we've seen shine at times in training camp, but again, it's a guy who hasn't really played and has no sample size of showing us. So when we talk about the sample size and what we can lean on, not much from McKay Blackman, 400 something snaps, not much from Isaiah Rogers overall

in being a starter, and then more or less nothing behind them to point to and say, other than, hey, they like those guys, there's not a lot of actual empirical evidence that we can bring to the table to say, this is gonna go fine if one person goes down in the secondary, which again is why the table is being banged for Jalen Ramsey, since they've already brought in Ryan Kelly,

Jonathan Allen, Javon Hargrave, you might as well bring in every Pro Bowler from 2021, right? I mean, why not with Jalen Ramsey? That's not to talk me into, but I think that when you start to really unravel it, it's a hard thing to talk you into with evidence other than, look, we complained about this all last off season and it was fine. And so we kind of need to trust Brian Flores with this. Yeah, that's a good point.

I mean, they led the NFL in interceptions a year ago. They had 24 of them with that old group, old old man Harrison Smith, old man Stefan Gilmore and a guy Gilmore who pulls his hammy when they finally asked him to play man-to-man coverage in that Arizona game at the end of the year. So that, yeah, I think they wanted more youth, more speed. That seems to be what they're going for.

Okuda is neither of those things really, I guess, at this point, but he does bring a different element as a bigger press corner where they got some smaller guys like Blackman Rogers and even Murphy a little bit around them. Um, so I don't see this as being a heavy, cause we kept talking about how Flores ran his Miami defense and how they want to get back to man to man. And Flores would say a little bit of that, but I don't think that's where the NFL is at. The NFL has shifted to be predominantly zone defense because of how good these offenses are, because of how good these wide receivers are, these tight ends. You need zones to kind of stop them, much like you do even in basketball, when you have talent mismatches.

So I think this Vikings defense is going to be fit to do more of the zone stuff they've been doing. They won't necessarily need a lockdown man-to-man corner, but having Jalen Ramsey wouldn't hurt. It wouldn't be a bad thing. It just depends on how much you got to give up for them because Quacey's shown they will be aggressive. They will, they will move draft picks.

They'll move it too for TJ Hawkinson. I'd be very interested to hear what, what the asking price for a Ramsey is and how interested the Vikings are because Gilmore is out there. He was taking a visit to Dallas not too long ago. He talked about retirement a few months ago. That seems to be off the table. I wouldn't be shocked if he's got his phone open, seeing if the Vikings want to call him back as well.

Well, and that's what I think too, if I'm doing the talk me into that I probably left off the table, and I sort of diverted into Yeah, it is a little concerning, isn't it? I broke the rules of the game. But sometimes we spend the entire summer talking about a shortcoming, and then they just sign someone to fix it. And then it's not there anymore. And they have a lot of time to evaluate it. They have mini camp coming up, which I think will give them their first little

snapshot and then they could get several weeks into training camp. But we've seen them do this with multiple different issues. Even a few weeks into the year, what, 2023, they signed Dalton Reisner and brought him in, or maybe it was even into the season, but like there's always some players out there, especially at the cornerback position. I think Russell Douglas is maybe still out there. They brought in last year, Fabian Moreau, who had been around the league for a bunch of years and he actually had a couple of good reps for them.

When Stefan Gilmore got hurt. So this is the most replaceable position at this time of year, I think on the entire field. But if they got Jalen Ramsey, uh, I would not be mad at it. Now here's the silly one for you. So the Vikings go international. They go play the Pittsburgh Steelers. They go play the Cleveland Browns in London. There is no human being who has done the picking of the schedule with the W's and L's next to the games that has picked a loss to the Cleveland Browns. Now I'm still not saying that they're going to lose to the Cleveland Browns. This is not the talk me into is that you and I,

when we do our leading up to the game, which I think you're going to be in London, so maybe we'll be able to figure that out virtually. Unless I get a lot of subscribers at purple insider dot football folks on people come on But when we do our preview that we're saying I don't know man The Vikings could lose this game like talk me into us actually Discussing the Vikings worrying about losing this game to the Cleveland Browns You know Chador Sanders is really starting to come into his own here in week 6. No, I'm joking. That's not true.

I guess I would say that this Browns defense is still really good. It still has Miles Garrett. They just drafted Mason Graham. Obviously, I think their secondary is one of the best in football, at least talent wise with with war, Delpit, New some and all them.

And I think Kevin Stefanski, two time coach of the year, is one of the best still one of the best in football, at least talent wise with, with Ward, Delpit, Newsom and all them. Um, and I think Kevin Stefanski, two time coach of the year is one of the best, still one of the best coaches, regardless of all the stuff he's had to deal with and the hand that he has been dealt over there with the Deshaun Watson deal. So, um, I don't think that this is going to happen, but if I'm talking you into it, it's going to have to be that the Vikings had some bad injury luck initially they're missing Ryan Kelly and, and you know, whatever, uh, TJ Hawkinson or something. And they're a little banged up in that, in that Brown's defense makes it an ugly, low scoring 12 to nine, like Jacksonville where they had to win 12, seven in

Jacksonville, if the Vikings could lose a 12-7 game to Cleveland, much like that. And that's just it. This could happen at any point, depending on who's available for you to any team. And we know that. These upsets happen every single year to a lot of franchises.

So Cleveland is going to win more than one game next year. It's just gonna be, we're gonna have to see who that is. And I think if it's against the Vikings, it's gotta be low scoring. It's gotta be to be, uh, we're gonna have to see who that is. And I think if it's against the Vikings, it's gotta be low scoring. It's gotta be that defense just dominate. Yeah, that's the right direction to go. I thought that you might say that Kenny Pickett has had his Sam Darnold year, which I've heard that I've heard that come up.

I have become really a fan of following Cleveland media because it is so funny. Like watching them try to cover Cheddar Sanders and OTAs and treating it like it's Joe Montana. And just, I mean, them trying to rationalize having an NFL franchise still is very, very funny. But I did see that at one point, somebody said, like, maybe Pickett can have his Sam Darnold year. And like, actually, he would have to be talented first. I don't know if you remember that Sam Darnold was like a top three draft pick and Kenny Pickett was really his success driven by this little receiver who plays for the

Vikings now I think. Okay, so before we did you have a silly one for me? Oh, boy. Okay, talk me into JJ McCarthy's prime time debut starting like Kurt Cousins did with a Monday night. Oh, for how, how does that happen? Why, why you gotta go there? You, you started it with a loss to Cleveland. I said being afraid of Cleveland. I didn't say they lose to Cleveland. Uh, I didn't say they lose to Cleveland. Well, I mean, I think as far as his debut, like look at, I mean, Teddy Bridgewater 2015, what did people think

after that debut? I know that he had played in 2014, but debuted as the real settled starter from the entire off season. It was absolutely horrible. It's like one of the worst games that they played under Mike Zimmer the entire time. And yet that team made the playoffs, won the division, did all those sorts of things.

I could see the thing about JJ McCarthy that I think is a little different from Sam Darnold is, I thought you could sense nerves with Sam Darnold. You could see it, you could feel it. I don't know that McCarthy's gonna be that way. I mean, he has just played on many big stages. And even like when we see him in practice, it doesn't look like this guy has any of that nervousness to him. But, you know, we'll see.

That's the biggest thing I can say is this is quite a stage to start off your career in the NFL. And there that is an intimidating place. Soldier Field, the history at night, the city of Chicago's in the background, he's from Illinois, right? I mean, the pressure, the nerves could be over the top for JJ McCarthy. And maybe the biggest thing with him

that he's still trying to figure out in general about throwing the football is velocity. And I'm gonna pull us all the way back to Brett Favre that Brett Favre in those big games at the early part would try to throw the ball through a concrete wall with every single throw and he would be high. He would be inaccurate. It would take a while for Favre in big games to settle down a lot of times. And I think having that light touch that it takes to guide the old pigskin over linebackers and it's a crazy talent that it has to take. And McCarthy's not completely

there yet. So I could see him being like a little too jacked up from the start and trying to throw the ball through a brick wall and missing on a few throws, you get an interception and, you know, soldier field, it's just a weird place to play, that it could kind of go sideways to start. And then, you know, we'll all decide that he's a bust and we'll move on to the next week. But I mean, I could see that with him just being a little bit too jacked up.

And I think also we were talking about that yards per attempt, we're going to have to be patient with him on the touch of the football, because Sam Darnold had been working for that for six years and has some of the best arm talent I have ever seen in my entire life. That's what we saw last year. McCarthy right away is not going to, I mean, there's throws last year where it's 25 yards down the field, the receivers not out of his break yet. And he just guides this thing. I'm thinking

about the throw in Arizona over a linebacker, a safety who's standing right in the right zone. I mean, there was stuff he did that is the only level of elite quarterbacks that we're going to have to see McCarthy develop his way into. So maybe we shouldn't judge his whole career on the first game, but you know, we'll see. Oh, you know, that's not going to happen. Everybody. It is all going to be on that game. He's a bust or he's a Super Bowl winner that night. And then of course he gets another prime time game in week two at home against the Atlanta Falcons. So it's going to be under the light spectacle right from the jump. Well, and when you have an island game like that in week one where everybody wants to go crazy over

everything, that's one where Tuesday morning, whatever happens, Williams versus McCarthy, you know that that ESPN panel and Stephen A and Greenberg and all the 19 former players they have, they are going to be going off about that game one way or the other. So JJ McCarthy is going to find out either way how much praise or how much criticism you get after one game just the last thing and I appreciate all of your time Jim Marshall passed away and I would just love to hear your thoughts I'm gonna do an entire podcast on Jim Marshall's passing to me one of the true icons of the NFL and

Especially of the Vikings franchise and I think if you are it someone, hey, I'd really like to be a Minnesota Vikings fan. I'm gonna start following them today. Tell me the most important players in Vikings history. Jim Marshall is one of the five names that you would start with. And I think that's an ultimate compliment to Jim Marshall. Yeah, and the record 282 consecutive starts and games played that lasted for so long.

When you think of the purple people eaters, you probably think Alan Page first, but then right after that is Jim Marshall, it's those two guys. And for him to represent that era of Viking football as well as they did, it was just different. It was a different era. And one that I think Vikings fans should, if they don't know it, Vikings fans are very well versed in their history. They, you know, cause that's often the only thing that they've had since the last time they were in the Superbowl was that long ago. If you don't know anything about them and you're a younger fan, you should go up and try to watch

some YouTube clips, try to, try to learn more about his game and just what that group did, what that bud grant era group did for the NFL. Um, they were game changers. They changed the face of the league a little bit there with, with, um, with those guys. And so I think Jim Marshall was legendary, obviously iconic, right, right with Alan Page and somebody that, um, you know, I think, um, would be up there in the Mount Rushmore, certainly of, of top Vikings. Yeah.

And it's a him and Carl Ehler to the outside world, I think at that time overshadowed Marshall in a lot of ways, the all pros, the pro bowls. I was looking that up this morning that there were years since pro football reference has gone back where Jim Marshall had more sacks than either Alan Page or Carl Eller. But those two got the all pros, those two got the Pro Bowls. And I think that ultimately that hurt his Hall of Fame case when it's a ridiculous way to decide someone's Hall of Fame case.

But I also think that we cannot allow Hall of Fame voters to dictate how we remember one of the great players in NFL history. Like it's going to come up every time, but that can't define him because he means so much more to this place. And it's sort of, if you know, you know, if you are in this environment, if you are around this franchise, if you cheer for this franchise, if you live in Minnesota, you understand. And that's, that's what the hall of fame is about is remembering guys and

remembering their greatness. Well, Jim Marshall has that in spades from the people who know him best, and he deserves that. So, and then not only that, but a great person in the community who's around the franchise a lot, lived in Minnesota. So truly one of us, Jim Marshall, Andrew Kramer, Minnesota Star Tribune,

always great to get together with you. And I'm sure we will do it again soon, sir. Thank you very much. Yeah, thank you. Looking forward to next time.