Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Star Tribune's Andrew Krammer thinks Vikings defense must step up vs. Detroit

Episode Date: October 19, 2024

Star Tribune reporter Andrew Krammer joins Matthew Coller to preview the matchup with Detroit Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar along with Andrew Kramer inside TCO Performance Center. And Mr. Kramer, we have quite a National Football League contest here in Roger Goodell's famous League of Football. I'm very excited about this one. I'm going to ask you a question right off the beginning here. When is the last Vikings-Lions matchup that we were this worked up about, that we were talking about as like, whoa, this could determine the NFC North. This one's going to be great. Look how these two teams match up.

Their offense, your defense, football. When's the last one that was this exciting? Boy, I would have to say i want to go back to two years ago however we all know how that went obviously when the lions beat the vikings when they were 13 and 4 that year we're trying to see are they for real all those things they had just lost to dallas 40 to 3 in november and i believe it was that second match up with the lions going into camera that was a Ford Field or US Bank. But either way, that game, I guess, you would have thought as a measuring stick, where do they stand?

But to your point, it's been a long time since I felt like the Vikings truly matched up with a good Lions team. And part of this issue is that the Lions were so bad for so long that when the Vikings were good, it's just been so long since both of these teams were relevant. And for the NFC North to be off to the best start ever in the modern era in terms of a division, it says something about where these lonely, low franchises like Detroit have come. And then obviously the Vikings have met them there this Sunday. Why don't we compare these Vikings and Lions teams then to when they were recently successful so the Vikings 2022 and that was that game was at Ford Field and that was the one where they threw the ball to Pene Sewell at the end to close out the game and I believe also that was a Jamison Williams where

he had one catch in the season it was like a 60-yard touchdown against I think Cam Dantzler forgot what to do in that game, as Ed Donatel's corners and everyone else so often seem to that year. And that's where I think the big difference is in terms of this team versus the 2022 team. They earned 13 wins. No one could ever take them away. But at the same time, the conversation week in and week out that year was, is this defense going to be able to stop anybody? And can they really get away with the one score

win over and over? Whereas this team is driven so much by their defense. And I think that it is apt to bring up 2017 when we look at the way this season is playing out, where it's a good offense, but it's not an elite Vikings offense right out where it's a good offense but it's not an elite Vikings offense right now it's a quarterback that everyone's still saying hmm will quarterback continue to thing uh and the defense is every bit as good as it it looks I think based on who they've played so far but how do you kind of compare and contrast those yeah I would have to say that this Vikings defense feels more like 2017 as you said i think this team feels like more like 2017 although that 2017 defense i felt like had more star power it had more guys in the prime of their career

including harrison smith uh stephon gilmore would have been around that time too so this defense i don't think is quite as good i don't know if they'll end number one in the league in points and yards allowed at the very end. Certainly not yards because that's not the way they play. But efficiency-wise, this defense is obviously amazing. They are winning games for them single-handedly against the Jets like they did. So I think this defense and the offense as well, when you look at it, it's different though. Because from 2017, that quarterback, right, Case Ke case keenum everybody wanted to know week to week is it for real that's similar to sam darnold but they ran the ball a lot with pat schirmer they were the

seventh if i believe ranked rushing offense that year with mckinnon and who would it have been latavius murray ah how could i forget lat Latavius Murray. So this year, though, I don't think they're going to continue to lean on the run as much. Aaron Jones already being banged up shows you that this guy probably shouldn't have been carrying the load that they were asking him to carry right out of the gate. And so with Cam Akers coming here, I think that move was not just about Sunday and Sunday's depth, but to take some load off and moving forward. And we all know Kevin O'Connell is going to want to throw the ball a ton. And especially in this matchup, I think this is going to be a time where the Vikings probably won't run a ton.

Detroit's run defense is so good. Yeah. I think this offense is obviously much more talented in the aerial game, passing game, and they have a head coach compared to 2017 who really wants to air it out. So now let's compare the Lions to their most recent success, which was last year and was kind of their only success ever. But last year's Lions had a similar offense,

but I think that now it's a little bit more diverse where I see Jamison Williams becoming a very serious part of this team when they look down the field for explosive plays he's the guy that they've been going to and their defense even if Aiden Hutchinson is out their defense is much more complete than it was last year you've got some development from some of the younger players Brian Branch has become a legitimate superstar in the league they are better with Carlton Davis who looks like he's going to play in this game after getting a little banged up last week. And their interior defensive line is now fantastic.

And that just hasn't been the case really at any point that the Vikings have played them. But McNeil, Reeder, those two guys, I think if there's one big mismatch on the field, it's probably those two guys against the Vikings interior. But overall, how do you look at the team that went to the NFC championship for the Lions last year and what they have now? Yeah, diversified on offense is kind of what I think, too, because this is a situation where they don't need to lean on Jameer Gibbs a whole lot, and they're leaning more into David Montgomery. They don't seem to have this hesitancy of like, boy, we just took this kid in the first

round. We got to make it a 50-50 split. Montgomery has earned the bulk of that workload and he's been amazing. Just signed a contract extension for them. It's still going to be all through the run game, but it's not just 15 targets for Amon Ross St. Brown, Fee Laporta every game. I think Jamison Williams has grown clearly as a guy that they can trust and be on the same page with. And I also think whether it's Tim Patrick or Kalief Raymond, they're popping up guys in a way that you see the Vikings kind of do with a Johnny Munt or a Josh Oliver. They will have different contributors week to week, pass the ball around, have seven, eight, nine guys having catches in a game.

And as you hear O'Connell talk about, that makes an offense very difficult to game plan for and stop because this is not just a team where you can say, we're going to take away Amon Raw and then we don't need to worry about anything else. And I think the offensive line, even though it was really good last year, is actually better. Kevin Zeitler is one of the elite players at his position in the league for a very long time. Seems like he's a guy that we always bring up of like, ah, if they only could have gotten him him then they wouldn't have guard problems since when was i mean steve hutchinson was here and it seems like guard problems have gone back quite a ways with the vikings but not with the lions they had good guard play last year great guard play so far this year how do you think that the vikings will try to counteract the excellence of this Detroit offensive line?

Because when I think about the offensive lines, the Vikings have played so far. San Francisco is pretty good, but I don't think the rest of the line outside of Trent Williams is fantastic. The Jets line last week is pretty bad. The Texans were banged up and shuffling people around. This is their first true challenge of a great offensive line, I think. It is. And I think they're going to have to lean on their pressure schemes and systems just as much as they have every other game.

And I thought I was surprised actually a little bit when we watched that Jets game in London where they right out of the gate zone blitzed and dropped Aaron Rodgers and actually confused him. As he said, Christmas came early for Andrew Van Ginkle and that touchdown. I thought going into that, like, you might not want to try too much of that because he's seen so much. But clearly this Vikings defense is so varied and so grown from last year

and from where they've come from that, you know, when you talk to guys like Byron Murphy in the secondary, he mentions our coverages and how we can mix man coverage with zone now allows us up front to mix a lot more blitzes and confuse quarterbacks a lot more. Because quarterbacks don't just know this is always going to be zone. This read of mine is always going to work. They have a lot more variety on the back end that's helping them on the front. And I think with Goff, you see him struggle at times under pressure. Now he performed well recently against Dallas when he was pressured, but he performed everywhere against Dallas when he was on the

field. I think Flores, I think the Vikings can fluster him. You saw last year, the end of last year, the Packers beat them. The Bears, who were really bad last year, beat them with pressure and really got Jared Goff on the ground. That's been hard to do for the Vikings. And so I think to beat this offensive line, I think it's going to be just seven across the line once again, trying to confuse Frank Ragnow, trying to confuse Jared Goff and how they set their protections, getting the one-on-one wins for guys like Grenard, Van Ginkle, even Dallas Turner,

who might play a bigger role with Pat Jones banged up this week. So I think it's going to be kind of an all-hands-on-deck thing there. And then the most intriguing aspect, though, for me is the run defense. We've seen them play good against bad rushing teams. Jordan Mason still went for like 100 yards. So I want to know against probably one of the premier, if not the premier, rushing team in the NFL, how are they going to stack up with Harrison Phillips, who was dealing with an injury, guys like Jerry Tillery, Jonathan Bullard, and oh, by the way, your leading tackler, Blake

Cashman, probably won't be playing. Well, I was going to go there as well. I mean, you're talking about a team that probably has one of the better backup linebackers in the NFL and better options for when they're missing a linebacker. Kamu Grugier-Hill has done a great job so far, and also Josh Metellus sort of doubles as a linebacker where he's Grugier-Hill has done a great job so far. And also Josh Metellus sort of doubles as a linebacker where he's been moving around a lot, but now he might have to play that position. But can they stop the run with Josh Metellus as a linebacker when you have such beasts who are climbing to the second level now hitting a guy that's 210, 215 pounds? I mean, I think that that has to be a factor. And the other

thing is too, I'm really curious about is I believe Kevin O'Connell referred to Ivan Pace as the hub of communication or presumably the green dot player who calls the defensive plays. Blake Cashman is a great outgoing gentleman who has a loud voice, who communicates extremely well, and is also really experienced, very, very intelligent, and has done a phenomenal job of adjusting, making changes at the line of scrimmage. Now you are asking Ivan Pace to do it. I don't know that that's going to be the same. I mean, I think Pace is a high intelligence player. He's a little more on the quiet side, but Cashman has been so good at it that I think he deserves a little more on the quiet side but it's cashman has been so good at it that i think he deserves a ton of credit for even just why this defense is as good as it is so

if he's out then they are losing i think a lot there especially at u.s bank stadium where you need to be loud to communicate yeah i think of i can't remember if it was the texans game or if it was the packers game but there was a sack that he had in one of those two games in which afterward he talked about his role in calling defensive line twists and incorporating the linebacker in those and how they just call him on the field and how Cashman in that moment saw something signal to the D lineman what he wanted to do and it ended in him getting the sack and so that's the type of stuff that they're not necessarily putting on Ivan Pace or haven't at this point of his career and for him to have to handle more of that communication, just even with the play calls,

which he did do last year at times when Jordan Hicks was hurt, that's a situation that is going to make him think more. And is that going to make Ivan Pace hesitate in a certain situation where he wouldn't if Blake Cashman was handling all of those duties? So these are all just kind of the butterfly effect, the little nuanced things that are going on when you lose a guy like that. Cause you're right. He's been so critical for them, not just as the fly around coverage linebacker,

but also the intelligence guy. And I did want to mention with that spot, I thought it was interesting that Kevin O'Connell brought up the edge players. And he said the flexibility with our edge players could help there too. And that makes me think that Andrew Van Ginkle, who's been a stand-up linebacker in miami for flores for vic fangio maybe might would make sense as a bigger guy in the middle there as well right so we could see potentially then van ginkle slide back into and this may depend on how detroit is running the

football against them slide back into more of a traditional linebacker role which i mean what a player andrew van ginkle is to be able to just be like and linebacker and edge rusher and safety if you need him to catch a football uh he's got great hands uh in that case that would mean if patrick jones can't play that dallas turner goes into that role and we talked to some folks about dallas turner this week, and I thought it was actually quite interesting that they've had him playing as many special teams reps as they have. And Matt Daniels talked about just developing understanding of football in space, tackling, defeating blocks, things like that. We just don't have any real sample size to

say what Dallas Turner is right now. He made one really nice play on the fourth down. He had a sack in the first game, which was kind of a cleanup sack, if I'm remembering it correctly. And other than that, he's only played 77 snaps. And so I'm curious if we see him play more of a full-ish workload in this game and we start to get a feeling for where Dallas Turner actually stands in his development because why would he get reps over Grenard and Van Ginkle so far? I mean, they've been like Pro Bowl caliber players for this team, but now there might be a cause for the first round pick to be in there. Yeah, I do think this would be a heck of a game too to try and see, you know,

measuring stick wise where he's at. Speaking of the strength of the Lions offensive line, I do wonder how much his role will change, though, because you've got Jihad Ward, you've got Patrick Jones, as you mentioned, who's banged up, but he returned to practice on Thursday of this week. I imagine it seems like he's tracking to play, if only in a limited role for them. So to your point, they've had such depth at that position that somehow Dallas Turner became your fifth edge rusher in that pecking order i do wonder too if part of it has to do with his size i also wonder if it has to do with the experience level of a d line that's very veteran and is doing

the stuff we're talking about uh pre-snap checks uh harrison phillips coordinating the pre-snap slides at the line of scrimmage the stuntsts, the twists, the blitz schemes to know how to set things up for your teammate. I'm not saying Dallas can't handle those things. Brian Flores spoke glowingly of him when he talked to us this week about him. However, it does seem that Patrick Jones, who's ascended quickly this season, Jihad Ward, who Brian Flores seems to really like, it just seems like they got a log jam in front of Turner right now. So if they do have to lean on him more this game, though, we might learn quite a bit about where he's at

because it doesn't get much tougher than this Lions offense in general. Let's talk about the quarterback. We have had conversations about Jared Goff for now many years, I think. And everybody who listens to the show knows where I stand on Goff. I mean, when you see a guy beat the Vikings over and over again and play the way that he has and execute the offense the way that he has, I think he's the perfect fit for what Detroit is doing. That doesn't mean he's perfect though. It does. I mean, he has weaknesses that we have seen exposed through the years before. And even in the NFC championship game, where he tried to make a throw on the run on a key fourth down and wasn't able to do it.

That's kind of the one weakness is that mobility. But how do you think that he can deal with the mental challenge of this defense? Because last year he faced them when they had DJ Wanham hurt, when they had Byron Murphy hurt, and they were kind of a shell of themselves. At the same time, he was not shaken by all the things that Flores threw at him last year. How do you think that might be different and what we might see from Goff in this game?

Yeah, this is not just going to be about him, but him and Ben Johnson and how they're able to scheme this up. Because I think what makes it so difficult when the Vikings face teams like the Lions or the Packers is that they are offenses that have been in place for multiple years. They come from similar roots or trees in terms of what they want to do in terms of styles, very smash mouth, downhill run games, play action passing, very efficient, typically passing games. And it can be very downhill too. All of those things said, those offenses can do a little bit of everything. It's not like just this one trick

pony kind of stuff. And so I think this is going to be very interesting to see if Ben Johnson can at all get an edge on Brian Flores and keep him guessing in any way, shape or form. And Brian Flores said this week, I like to fight fire with fire when it comes to the aggressiveness that you see from this Lions offense, just in the play calling. They were up 25 in that game against Dallas and they do the hook and ladder with Penae Sewell. It's just incredibly insane what they're doing there. But it goes to show you that in any kind of moment, and you see it from Ben Johnson and his play calling, they will take those chances, whether it's just a fourth and short or a fourth and five or a trick play, they're going to pull things out. And so I think Flores is going to try

and force the issue. You mentioned Goff's mobility. I think that is going to be the thing that they try to take advantage of. And the thing that frankly, whether it was Flores in new England under Bill Belichick calling plays in the Superbowl in 2018 against Goff or 2020, when Flores was the head coach ruining Kevin O'Connell's offense in the Rams with Jared Goff he he knows how to beat him and I don't look back at last year's two losses at the end of last season is too much of an indictment of Flores and this Vikings defense against them because it was with basically nobody it was with Caleb Evans at corner still starting was with Makai Blackman I with Caleb Evans at corner still starting.

It was with Makai Blackman. I can't remember who else was out there for them at the time, but it was very young and experienced guys at the end of the season that they were not playing very well in. And they had no pass rush last season. It was just Daniil Hunter at that point or pretty much the whole year. So I think this Vikings team is going to be much better set to make life a lot harder for Jared Goff.

And it was interesting to look at their schedule, Detroit's, and see that I don't know if they've played really anybody defensively quite yet. I don't know if they've been tested or pushed yet. So because of that, it's going to be a fascinating matchup. I was asking Sam Darnold about play action yesterday and just kind of getting his thoughts. And he actually said that he felt that you could run the ball better if you were using play action. Cause we always think about the other way around, like, Oh, well, if you're running well, then you can do the play action stuff. And there's some truth and some myth to that, but I didn't think of the other way around, which I think is a really good point that if you are hitting on passes down the

field, then the defense can't just brush your running back and react. They have to pay attention to what you're doing there. And that could be really important in this game for the Vikings defense against that offense, because golf averages 12.8 yards per pass attempt on play action, which is number one in the NFL. Sam Darnold, not far behind, by the way, he's fifth in the NFL in yards per attempt with play action. But I think it just shows you every coach says, we want to marry the run of the pass. And you're like, well, of course you do. I, you know, I, you want to win the Superbowl too, and have a great culture and all the things everybody talks about, but they actually do it. I mean, they do it at such a great level. And that's where I think

everything builds off of the running backs in this game, where it's not just the play action, but it's the screen game. They throw to those guys out of the backfield. They have a quick passing game when we haven't seen anyone try this, this, this year, really. But last year, the one thing that beat Flores is defense consistently was quick passing game when Keenan Allen had 18 catches or whatever, or an Amin Ross St. Brown's a major factor here. He only averages nine yards a catch, but he's got a bunch of receptions. So I wonder if we see kind of a real mix of –

you want to almost say like video gamers would call it like the cheese, like the easy stuff, the stuff that is so hard to stop, the play actions, the screens, the short passes, so Flores can't get in a rhythm of dialing up pressure after pressure. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how they do that because I think this Vikings defense sets it up where they put such a shell as that phrase, but they put an umbrella. They do. They lead the league in too high. According to ESPN, it's 70% of too high coverages that they run through five weeks. They consistently want to force you to play under and

do those quick passes and i think it's worked so well so far because the vikings are one of the best tackling teams excuse me in the nfl and it's gotten better week after week they had just four misses in this last game against the jets and they're tackling very very well and when you got a veteran secondary who's always in the right spots seems to know what's coming before it does that helps and so the quick passing game stuff i think flores wants to live in that area i think The veteran secondary is always in the right spots, seems to know what's coming before it does. That helps. And so the quick passing game stuff, I think Flores wants to live in that area. I think he wants offenses to try that because the Vikings are generally so good at sniffing that stuff out.

And please throw a screen to Andrew Van Ginkle's way. Please, please do that if you're the Vikings. That's what they want. What is going to get them is you mentioned the play action. You're right. If they can somehow hit a shot over the top and if that adjusts the coverages that flores feels like he has to call whether it's more quarters instead of uh cover two i think those are the kind of things that could really loosen up the underneath stuff on them where they played it so tight so far and also cashman was has been so good underneath too the past deflections the tackles uh down low

that's another spot where whoever it is if it's metellus camu grugier hill they're going to need somebody to step in there and not miss those tackles and not be a beat late on those kinds of plays and and so if they can limit the big plays if they can certainly limit the lions from getting off to a fast start like they have every other opponent it's just going to set them up for success later on in the game because I think this Vikings team loves to get you in a spot where you feel like you need to get the ball out quick but we've yet to see a team truly shoot it over their heads right out of the gate oh there's another part of this too which is that the Vikings have played every single minute except for three ahead in games and I want to see

how it's played when they're not winning. And you can't feel like you could be aggressive all the time. I mean, Flores may be anyway, but I think the game is a little bit different when you get a pick right off the top or a fumble right off the top. And then you score a touchdown and then you're just up immediately.

And the other team feels like they're drowning right away. And they have nothing that can save them but with the uh if they could get ahead detroit then it might be a different story with the way that they play so on the other side of uh things i am curious to know about how you feel about the sam darnold i'm not even going to call it a debate i don't know if it is a debate yet hasn't reached debate status but you have to say when you talk about sam darnold being five and oh is he going to continue doing this like i don't see any other way you can talk about sam darnold when he has the history that he has we know jared goff will continue playing good

quarterback because he has his entire career with sam darnold he does not have the sample size in the past so are the v. So are the Vikings reasonably questioned as an offense because their quarterback has outperformed previous expectation, or is it not fair because he has never had anything like this around him? I think it's fair because of the first part you said where we haven't seen him win a certain way. We haven't. We have not seen him bring this team back. We haven't even seen him really win a game in a second half too much. I mean, I guess that game against the Jets was fairly close, and obviously they held on for dear life against the Packers, but that

wasn't because of the offense. They were outscored 29-3 the rest of that game, and this offense only scored 16 points against the Jets, and the head coach was mentioning there are opportunities in the passing game. We are not hitting them. So no, I think it's fair. I think this is just a good team. And Sam Darnold talked about this and we've talked about this in 2022 in Carolina. He's like, that's when I learned I didn't need to be great to win. That's when I learned that, you know, I could, you know, he didn't say this, but you can look at the box score. He can complete seven of 14 or whatever it was and win a game. He can also play great and consistently lose like he has at times throughout his career on bad teams. This is a good team where he is not required to win or play individually that well week to week to win. So can Sam Darnold play winning football every

week? Yeah. If the other 21 guys on either side of the football around him are playing winning football, he absolutely can on this team. But is he going to win playoff games? Is he going to win big games like Sunday? Those are questions that are different. Those are questions that he hasn't answered yet. And we're going to find out as soon as Sunday to see what can he do against a team that very much could, like the Packers, come back from a big deficit and bring you to the brink. I feel like sometimes in football analysis, we can only either talk about someone as if they are the worst player of all time or they should be the MVP, and nothing else can ever be discussed.

It's like even quarterbacks who have a lot of success, but it's in large part because of what's around them, they're talked about as if they are just a waste of skin and bones. Why are you even alive if you're throwing to someone wide open? I swear that's how Brock Purdy was talked about all last year. What are you even doing here? Why don't you just leave? You always have a ghost play quarterback because your receivers are so open and your scheme is so good. And obviously Brock purdy has

continued to prove over and over again he is a fantastic quarterback get over it the same with jared goff but you know when it comes to darnold he is in some shade of somewhere in between there right like it's he's not anywhere near as bad as he was with the Jets, but he's also not as good as he was in the first three weeks because that is ridiculous. He had 117 quarterback rating. He was playing at an MVP level. Why people talk about the MVP after three weeks, I have no idea. There's 17 games.

But, you know, feel free to continue, I guess. But I think what we've seen is that the truth is definitely in the middle with Sam Darnold, where there are moments in the Green Bay game, there are moments in the game against the Jets, where you go, Sam, you can't take that sack. Sam, you have to make the right read and throw the ball there, get the ball out. You can't hang on to it. We saw in Green Bay, you can't scramble to your left and desperately try to make a wild throw into coverage that almost gets picked off. And you have to identify a blitz. But I don't know that he's always going to do these things right like i don't know if he's just going to clear up the trigger in his brain that says go do something crazy with your arm i also don't know if he's ever going to have an x-ray vision peyton manning style

look at the defense and anticipate and understand where every defender is going to be. A lot of it does have to kind of live on. I'm going to take this cannon and fire it into that window and see what happens. And that's going to come along with, I think, a roller coaster, but you can mitigate some of the problems it causes when you have a great team around him. That's kind of what I look at with every quarterback is what do they need to win? What do they need to have a 13 win season? And with Darnold,

I think we've seen all of it on display. You need a defense to win a game where you weren't good. And they did. You need just the Jefferson to catch a 97 yard ball and take it to the house. And they did. And you need your defense to take the ball away because you're going to give the ball away and you need to even that out. And so far they have.

What is your biggest question about him going forward though, after now we have this sample size under a situation where he can win? Well, it's consistency because it's what you bring up about Sam is that he's not obviously as bad as we saw with the Jets because he was the rawest. He could have been in the NFL, but also didn't have any help. And then he's also not as bad as he was with Carolina because he's getting finally now and started to last year in San Francisco, the right kind of coaching in the NFL in a system that he's currently running, which he didn't do a whole lot of under Ben McAdoo or Adam Gase and his previous coordinators in the NFL. So he is not a finished product. He is not a molded product.

He is not like Kirk Cousins where he can have a bad game and you're like, well, he's got seven years to fall back on the same stuff he's done every week. Like they were talking about Darnold this summer. O'Connell was of, hey, you need to go through your game plan preparation and learn how to prepare for a week of games, like, or just the game that week. And that is because he started one game last year for San Francisco, hadn't been a full-time starter in week one since 2021, I believe going into that year. So it had been a while. And so this guy is still learning. He's still absolutely learning the nuances of all of the mechanics that they're teaching him here, the footwork, the not bouncing as he's waiting in the pocket, all those different

things that he can revert back to bad habits. He can revert back to things that he does not have that set foundation of just being a super veteran with a ton of experience. This guy's 50 games is more like a bunch of car crashes. It's not like this kind of nice little locomotive train that's getting you right up to where you want to go. So I think with Darnold, the biggest question I have is week in and week out, is it going to look more like it did against the second half against the Packers? Or is it going to look more like it did sometime in the first three weeks? And like we both know, the answer's probably somewhere in the middle with him. And I think the Vikings, this team, the important thing to know is that this team is good enough that they can get somewhere in the middle with darnold and maybe beat just about anybody i think a big factor for him as much as i like cam acres and uh i think

ty chandler can make big plays is mr aaron jones because he's kind of been like the tour guide back there you know how when you climb kilimanjaro you know all about this oh yeah uh that you don't do it alone that would be insane you'll probably die uh so you usually go along with the tour guide whose job it is to take you up to kilimanjaro it feels like the same way i think that's true uh it's the same way when i read an article about it once actually people do not make it sometimes and i don't know why they climb mountains. If you're a mountain climber, please explain in the comments. But the whole point is that climbing this NFL mountain to the Super Bowl at the top,

you need a running back like Aaron Jones. That's the point. I really think, though, that he has been the guide for him back there. It's second and five all the time. It's a screen pass that goes for 30 yards where you as the quarterback did absolutely nothing except for just go, boop, you have the ball now. And when you can do that, and that player is so gifted that he can sort his way through and run with patience and toughness and catch the ball. And you can line them up in different spots and

go, oh, okay, I've got Aaron Jones now as a wide receiver. I can throw it to him. I mean, if Nick Mullins lays it out 10 more yards in the distance, we've got an Aaron Jones go ball for a 50 or 60 yard touchdown against the Jets. That's how gifted this dude is. If he is not up to 100% or cannot play against the Detroit Lions, how different is that for you? Because what I've been saying is I'm not sure I want to make a prediction until I have a good sense for whether he's going to play. We were

just out there at practice. We saw him warming up. That makes it possible that he could play, but we don't really know. So give me the, if he does, and if he doesn't difference for you. Yeah. If he does play, it's exactly what you said. It's Sam Darnold's got the guy he can lean on. They've got not even that Kevin O'Connell to in his play calling has the guy he can lean on on early downs to know how am I going to get into a good down and distance for my quarterback and without him, I've gone back and forth on how impactful this will be. The lines are a very good run defense. They're not very good in coverage, or at least they give up a lot of yards,

and they get flagged a lot. They've had three penalties per week for defensive holding or interference. That's just their averages. They're very grabby. It's the same way they were the year before. Aaron Glenn coaches this way. It's why they get Carlton Davis in free agency, because the Bucs played the same way with him.

I remember one of Jefferson's early games in his career, Carlton Davis threw him around in a game at Tampa Bay. So they're going to try and do the same thing here. And the Vikings are going to lean into that. I think the Vikings biggest play this week might be the DPI. It might be the defensive holding. It might be just giving guys a shot and seeing if you can get the ref to throw that flag. So the reason I've gone back on it is because I think they're going to want to throw it. I think their best play, this is going to go on Sam Darnold. Much like how Kirk Cousins carved up the Lions week after week, they just lost in shootouts to this Detroit team most often. They can throw on

them and they've got a ton of weapons. I think this could be a big Jordan Addison game. Justin Jefferson only has big games against the Lions outside of one example when he had 14 yards against him. Um, otherwise he averages, I think 134 yards against them, including that 14 yard game. So he goes bonkers. So this is going to be a game where I think Kevin O'Connell, Wes Phillips, they can all scheme this defense apart. It's just a matter of, is it going to be third and 10? Are you going to wait until third and 10? Are you just going to start throwing on first and second down? And then are you going to put pressure on your defense who might be on the field a long time if they're not stopping the run?

This will be interesting to see how O'Connell manages all of that and calls this game because without Aaron Jones, which might be the case, it's going to be on Darnold because I don't have a ton of faith in Ty Chandler. Again, this is a good run defense. We've talked about what seems to be a lack of confidence in Chandler, certainly on passing downs, third downs. They don't. It's more of a C.J.

Ham kind of show. And so if they're going to be asking the runner to do pass blocking most of the time this week, we might see Ty Chandler more like a one third split than some kind of like replacement featured role. 47 C.J. Ham snaps. Analytics say you will win if that is the case. a one-third split than some kind of like replacement featured role 47 cj ham snaps analytics say you will win if that is the case uh is it fair to say that uh this game if the vikings win it we should talk about them as the best team in the nfl or is that too much and uh

how much value would you put on it if they did not win? I can't put them as the best team in the NFL with Sam Darnold at quarterback right now unless Sam goes out there on Sunday and just looks like those first three weeks, three touchdowns, whatever, dominates and is a big reason why they won. I still would pick a Patrick Mahomes or a Josh Allen. And even though those teams are not as good top to bottom as the Vikings right now, I still think you're going to want to take the better quarterbacks in a one-game sample. And so to me, that's what it comes down to with who the best team is. But with the Vikings, they have an argument for one of the best top to bottom rosters in the NFL right now.

And we talked about them going up against Houston, up against San Francisco. It's like, boy, these are the measuring stick. Well, they passed, they passed all those tests. So this is the next test. It's probably maybe the toughest one in the NFC right now outside of them. And yeah, if they do it, you can at least say that they're the best team in the conference. I would feel confident at least in saying that. I think I would have to say that the best team in the NFL, because of the teams that they've played. I don't know that any other team has faced a harder schedule through this point. And if they beat the lions, then what other tests do we have for them? Uh, because the AFC South and the Rams are coming up, uh, after this. So I would say that if they lose, I will probably say, well, then the lions deserve that title. But also that's another team that has a great case

for the best team in the entire NFL. So we will see how it goes. Vikings and Lions. We will have coverage from myself and Dave Mizutani in the press box after the game, so make sure you look forward to that. Andrew Kramer, read his stuff at Star Tribune, and we will catch you next time.

Wait, wait. Prediction. Did you predict? I'm going to pick the Lions to win this game. Ooh, hater. Hater. I'm picking the Vikings if Aaron Jones plays. And if he doesn't, I'll go with the Lions. That's a cop-out. Yes, it is.

All right. Good day, everyone. Joining the show for, I think, the second time, Hobie Arteague, WDIV in Detroit, formerly of Fox 9 here in Minnesota. Hobie. It's good to see you. How about these football teams,

my friend? It's incredible. It's incredible. These two, how about this division right now? That's the incredible part. It really is. It really is.

I don't think I've ever seen before in my life, four teams, an entire conference, all be the best in the division, in single division like it is with the Vikings. But it is a rare year, and this is a rare game between these two teams. I want you to put it in the Detroit context because what we've been saying here, Hobie, is this might be the biggest Vikings-Detroit Lions game since I have no idea what it is certainly

the biggest since I arrived here for sure I this is going to be a big one just given the context and the situation of where things stand in the NFC North right now but I think from the Lions perspective it's how do they respond a from the injury to Aiden Hutchinson number one and number two what does this offense look like? Because their last two games, they've just been off the charts good. They've put up 40 plus points in back-to-back games, granted the defense has helped put them in some pretty good positions as well. But at the beginning of the year, the first three games, it was like, oh, is this the same offense from last year? Can they put up big points? And then they respond against the Seahawks with 40

plus. And then just on Sunday against the Cowboys, they put up 47 points in that game with a bag of tricks for Ben Johnson, with all of the play calls that they made in that game. I think people want to see a continuation. Is this offense legit? Because the last two defenses that they played, they were both dealing with some injuries. Now they play one of the best defenses in the league up to this point in the Vikings.

And I think it's going to be kind of be a make or break game for that offense. Are they who we really think they are at this point of the year? And a much, much healthier Vikings defense than what they were facing in Dallas. So what is your assessment of what's changed over the last couple of weeks? Because with Detroit's offense, the last really of weeks because with Detroit's offense the last really three years they have been elite overall and they've had performances like they did against Dallas on a regular basis so my expectation coming into the season is that they would look exactly like that but for those first few weeks it was a little more joggy Jared Goff didn't look quite as

comfortable as he has in the past. And then something clicked in, which I guess you could say is the opponents because Seattle has had a couple of rough weeks in a row, but the execution is at such a ridiculously high level. Was it the lack of hook and ladders to the right tackle? Maybe that was the issue. That was what they were really looking for, but really what, what do you think it was that clicked in? Or all the tossing in the backfield and then throwing it down the field to your tight end, down the sideline. Maybe that's what was the missing piece. I was joking with people because going into this season, I was thinking they have so many weapons to work with. How are they going to get it done? Because everybody needs the ball. You have so many options that Jared Goff can go to.

And I think this entire process has just been kind of a feeling out process, if you will, just to see how things and all the dots are going to connect. And none of the starters played in the preseason, none of them. So I think the first three weeks of the season, it was kind of working through, okay, what do we have? Who do we have to work with? Can we build that chemistry in a game? And I think that that's what you saw through the first three weeks of the season. Then they get to the game against Seattle on Monday night. And for some reason, this entire offense just exploded. We saw the creativity. We saw what we have gotten used to.

And I don't even know if they know why things just started to click. I think the key word that you mentioned was being comfortable. And to take game reps, it's different from not having those in the preseason and then getting thrown and thrust into action. And I think they were just wanting to see just how all of the pieces connected too, because we've seen Jamison Williams breakout this year. We really haven't seen that in the past. And that was kind of taking away from Sam Laporta's production but now I think you're you're starting to see it all balance out in the run game being married to the passing game because Jerry Goff has been deadly with play action passing so far this season what has been the difference with uh Jameson Williams is it that he's just not suspended for a random gambling thing uh but but with him though it has been quite the journey.

He came into the ACL, and it was a slow start from the very beginning. And this is also a player that the Vikings passed on drafting, by the way, with his blazing speed. But up until this point, we could have said, well, it's okay. The Vikings didn't pick him because he hadn't produced much. And then now all of a sudden, he's become a regular part of this. Is that also maybe because they moved on from Josh Reynolds in the off season? And I think that that's a factor too, because they still are missing that big body. That's what they were missing in the first three games of the season. But then Tim Patrick has now

burst onto the scene who they got whenever they made roster cuts, they brought him over from the Denver Broncos. And just yesterday, he had a great game against the Cowboys in that game, making some great down the field catches. Almost had a touchdown, was called just short of the goal line. But as for Jamison Williams, people forget too. People think about the suspension last year and heading into that season. But he was also hurt in training camp. He got hurt about midway through training camp.

He was having some drop issues coming into the season even before he got hurt. But looking at this season, talking to him in training camp, I think everybody expected him to turn into the guy that they drafted. And that's what he has done. And I think he came into training camp with that expectation of himself that he needs to be this person. Everyone said throughout training camp how his maturity was different, that he needs to be this person. Everyone said throughout training camp how his maturity was different, that he was a different player, that he was going across the middle. We saw it watching training camp practices. He's going across the middle, making tough catches. He's not just the guy that's going to beat you with speed. And I think that his teammates started

to believe in him as well. And I think that Jared Goff and Jamison Williams have built up this connection. And now you have an offense where you have to defend in the pass game every level of the defense, because you have Amon Ross St. Brown, who can beat you with a quick slant or just run a route and then just stop, cut, and then be there on the spot. You have Sam Laporta, who can hit up the seam. And then you have Jamison Williams, who can take off the top of a defense. And we've seen it happen in pretty much every game this year, how defenses will focus in on some of the guys underneath and he'll somehow, some way just sneak over the top and then he's gone. And I think a lot of that is just him maturing and trusting in himself and also just being healthy

to a hundred percent. Right. Because we knew that he had the talent to be a top-notch wide receiver. It was just the opportunity and having it come together, which makes the offense even more scary. I do want to talk about Jared Goff for a moment because every time Goff comes up on this show for, I think six straight years, uh, because straight years because 2018 was when he put up the perfect quarterback rating against the Vikings on Thursday Night Football. And ever since then, I was like, I'm defending Jared Goff all the way. That was one of the best performances I've ever seen. And that ticket has gone up and down, but recently has really been paying off. But I wonder what it is you think has worked so well for him with

Detroit. Is it as simple as, look, it's a good offense with lots of good players around him. But I think that there's even more to that. I think that there's somehow a guy who is a number one overall draft pick with that arm and that talent becomes an underdog when he gets traded to a city that was down and out and is written off by everybody when he gets there they're talking about i remember in that 2022 draft well they should draft a quarterback this year so he could take over for jared goff when they move on from him as a bridge and he has become the true franchise in detroit i guess what have you made of that kind of develop development i i guess from the time he got there to now how he kind of owns the city.

After that playoff, I mean, you can't walk around the city and not hear Jared Goff. I was just covering the Tigers in the postseason and that Jared Goff chant was breaking out in their games. I'm like, let's give this team a little bit of credit right now. But that's how much he has taken over the city. I think Dan Campbell said best after one of their playoff wins, he threw him a game ball and said, you're good enough for Detroit, taken over the city. I think Dan Campbell said it best after one of their playoff wins. He threw him a game ball and said, you're good enough for Detroit, Jared Goff. And I think that that's when everything just solidified itself as to what he is and what he means to the city and what he means to this team. But as far as what has clicked for him, granted, number one,

playing behind the best offensive line in the league certainly helps. Whenever you have Taylor Decker and Panay Sewell as your tackles, Frank Ragnow, Minnesota guy, who has been such a smart, physical, dependable player for so long, you put all the right pieces together in front of him and give him time to throw, that's when he is at his best. And I think Ben Johnson has plotted things out for him from a play-calling perspective to play to his strengths. He's been great at play action. He's done well in that aspect of the game. They

have an established run game right now with David Montgomery and Jameer Gibbs. And I think he's in a spot now where he doesn't have to be the guy. He has so many pieces around him. I remember whenever I was on your show earlier this summer, we were talking about JJ McCarthy at Michigan. He didn't have to be the guy because of all the pieces that he had around him. And I think that that's played to his strengths as well. But the difference in Jared Goff is if you can get pressure on him, he can be a different quarterback. And what gives me some pause going into this game against the Vikings is watching what the Bucs did to him earlier this season. Because the last two games, Jared Goff has been great. Perfect 18 for 18 against Seattle. Just over on Sunday against the Cowboys, he had 300 plus passing yards, three touchdowns.

That was Jared Goff at his best. But also Dallas didn't have DeMarcus Lawrence. They didn't have Micah Parsons. They didn't have Deron Bland. How much does that factor into Jared Goff putting up those types of numbers? Because the Bucs, who like to blitz, don't blitz nearly as much as the Vikings do. So if Brian Flores can dial some stuff up going into this game, I think that that's going to be the key for the Vikings going into this one, is putting pressure on Jared Goffff because Jared Goff under pressure and Jared Goff with time two completely different quarterbacks and we've seen it time and time again over the last few years it's remarkable how bad he is at throwing on the move in any way shape or form if he could set himself and line it up uh he is just like you on the golf course right down the middle of the fairway i

don't play that much golf matt come on but if uh but if he has to scramble outside of the pocket or even shift himself too much and get off balance he is a very different thrower of the ball i i will say this though the to that point i mean he has he has been a very statuesque quarterback in the backfield over his career. That said, this year, he is using his feet a lot more. I mean, we see him running to pick up first downs. We see him on play action, bootlegging or extending the play in some way with his feet. And I can't say that I recall him doing that as much as a Lion as he's done this year.

So that's another element of his game that I believe he has worked on. I asked him the other day, I was like, was that a conscientious part of your offseason prep in becoming more mobile? Because we're seeing so many mobile quarterbacks in the league. The pure pocket passer really isn't one that we see very often anymore. And I think that he added that to his game to help this offense become as good as it can be because you know better than anybody, if you can buy an extra second or two with a blitz that's coming at you,

that's all the difference in the world in success and not being successful in the NFL. I have seen a few Jared Vick tweets when he's taken off for first down, but I still think, of of course like the scouting report's going to be get him off his spot get him moving i think when he's intentionally moving he's okay but when he's doing it to try to scramble away that's where you want him you don't want him setting and throwing and the vikings are going to try very hard to deal with this but how is this

offensive line i guess a factor when it comes to facing off with Brian Flores' defense? Because Flores has done so well at sending different people from different places. There's seven guys standing around the line of scrimmage. Four are coming at you, but you don't know which four it's going to be. But I also, last year, noticed Jared Goff handled that pretty well. Very different personnel, though, this time than it was last year. Goff kind of got to face the mediocre version of this because they had injuries last season when they played Detroit. I think that this game is going to look a lot different

for what Flores can do to Jared Goff. No Andrew Van Ginkle that time around, and that's going to be a different story. But looking at, I mean, the Bucs had similar personnel, and they were dealing with injuries this year compared to last year. The Lions, of course, beat the Bucs in the playoffs. They were playing without fewer of their defensive players in this regular season, and they still were able to make him uncomfortable in that game. I actually wrote the stats down just because I was curious before we got on. In that game against the actually wrote the stats down just because I was curious before we got on.

In that game against the Blitz, against Tampa Bay, Goff went 9 for 17 for 117 yards, two interceptions. His passer rating was 35.3. Wow. I mean, that's significant in that game. And I say that by also saying he's done well over the last two games. I think it all goes back to what you were saying about the offensive line and having a very cerebral guy in Frank Ragnow who was dealing with a pec injury. He got hurt, finished out the game against, I believe it was the Cardinals or it was the Seahawks. And then they had the bye week. So

he was, or yeah, he got hurt. I believe it was against the Cardinals, missed Seattle. And then, and it was dealing with a pec injury for the bye week. But that is, he is, he is Detroit's Ironman on that offensive line. And that is he is he is Detroit's Iron Man on that offensive line and I think he is smart he knows how to diagnose and dissect defenses he's kind of seen it all and this is one of the best offensive lines if not the best offensive line in the NFL so if anybody is going to stop uh what they will bring to the line of scrimmage the Vikings will uh it would be that Detroit offensive line because Panay Sewell is a monster on the outside. I don't think Andrew Van Ginkle

has seen a guy like him quite yet. So it's going to be interesting to watch that matchup for sure. Yeah, I think what Brian Flores has gone for so successfully is just confusion on the offensive line because there's so much talent there, but can they sort through all the different things that's going on?

Well, as you very well know, the U S bank stadium crowd is something different when it's really amped up. And I think this week will be, Oh yeah, they will be very, very much. Now you mentioned the Aiden Hutchinson injury. I mean, this is a total game changer on the defensive side. How, in your estimation, will they try to make up for the loss of maybe the best defensive player in the NFL? I mean, he was on track to win defensive player of the year. If we were going by what he's done so far this year, seven and a half sacks to lead the league, 17 quarterback hits.

That led the league as well. You don't just replace that overnight. You really don't. And they're not going to get anybody in here that fast who can step in right away if they even do make a move. The challenging part is they had Marcus Davenport, who Vikings fans are clearly familiar with. He already got hurt. He's out for the season. Now you have Hutch. They also had one of their other pass rushing defensive linemen in John Kaminsky. He got hurt in training camp. So they are running really thin and they're going to have to rely on some guys that fans out there might not be too familiar with right away. And I think that's going to put pressure on the back end of that defense that Justin Jefferson just tore up last year. I think in the two games that they played, I think Jets

had 333 receiving yards. That being said, the secondary has been completely revamped. They drafted Terryon Arnold in the first round, who continues to be better and better and better as the season has gone on. He had a lot of pass interference calls earlier in the season, but he had a great fourth down stop on Sunday against the Cowboys. Carlton Davis, who they got from the Bucs. It looks like he is going to be back. Things are optimistic for him heading into this game to be on the field. And then Brian Branch, who has been just... Dan Campbell put it in the perfect Dan Campbell terms the other day. He is just a football player. The guy had two picks and a forced fumble, and those turnovers changed the game against the Cowboys in one game.

And I think that that can help alleviate the stress of not being able to get as good of a pass rush on the quarterback. But Aiden Hutchinson, you just don't replicate or replace that in any way, shape, or form. So I think that everyone, not only just the defensive tackles like Aline McNeil and DJ Reeder are going to have to try to help create some chaos. I just think that there's going to be a lot of pressure on the back end of that defense. And maybe they do like Brian Flores and Aaron Glint dials up some exotic blitzes to send at Sam Darnold on Sunday because replacing him, it's not impossible, but it is extremely hard to do when you have a guy like that. Well, and there is an advantage on the interior.

That's where the Vikings have allowed a lot of their pressure so far this year. And that's where, as you mentioned, one of the bigger improvements in bringing in DJ Reader has happened for this Detroit team. But I also suspect that there's going to be a lot of blitzing. Darnold has been up and down against the blitzing. I think he, if he has answers that are there and quick, he could get it out. But if he hesitates at all, then we've seen him take a strip sack, take a, take probably more sacks than he wants to take so far this season. But we haven't seen a team really in a position to just dial it up against them because the Vikings have been

leading for the entire season. Hobie, they've only trailed three minutes and 26 seconds. It's been crazy. Are you serious? That's what the number is. Yes. They trailed, they fumbled on the opening drive and gave up a field goal, got down three, nothing scored a touchdown on the next drive, have not trailed since for a single second, which is, I think this is going to make for an incredible challenge for them of playing a team. That's going to play them back and forth. That is unlikely to give them a 17 point lead. Like we've seen them get over the last couple of weeks in basically the blink of an eye. But with this defense, I've been very skeptical on Aaron Glenn for the last couple of years. And I think, as I mentioned, if I see someone do something awesome in person, I am biased to that, but it's the opposite with Glenn.

I've never seen his defense play well against the Minnesota Vikings since he got the job, but they certainly played really well against Dak Prescott the other day. I thought that they held on for dear life against Gino Smith and they've had some good games throughout this season. How strong are they? And factoring in, obviously, that Aiden Hutchinson isn't there. I think strength-wise, they get better and better as the season goes on. And we look back to the second half of last year when they played. It was Justin Jefferson.

They had Puka Nakua and Mike Evans, and then CeeDee Lamb in the regular season too. And all four of those guys just absolutely went off. I don't know if we've really seen anybody have, they've given up some yards. Give me that. I'll give you that. But I don't know if we've seen that monster performance by anyone yet against them this season. Now granted, Puka Nakua got hurt in the first game of the year. Chris Godwin went off in the one game against the Bucs while Mike Evans was kind of held in check. But I think that they get better as the season goes on because they went out in the offseason and addressed. They knew that the secondary was what they needed to focus on.

And they made sweeping changes across the board. I mean, their two outside corners are brand new. Their slot corner is brand new in Amik Robertson, who was kind of picked on in that game against Dallas, but then started to hold his own because he got matched up on CD Lamb a couple of times, I believe. But the safeties on the back end, Brian Branch, they rotated him back to safety along with Kirby Joseph. Both of those guys have multiple interceptions this year. They have both been really good at playing the football.

Kirby Joseph, most of his picks have come in the end zone. Brian Branch just had one in the end zone. So just because they're giving up the big yards doesn't mean you're going to score on them. Because I think we saw that with Seattle. Seattle put up some huge numbers yardage-wise. But at the end of the day, it looked like a lopsided loss because they kept them off of the scoreboard at the end of the day. Bend but don't break, that's going to be their mantra.

That's what they have been up to this point, and I don't think that that's going to change against the Vikings despite that they'll give up a big catch to Justin Jefferson or Jordan Addison or TJ Hawkinson, but once they get inside the 20, they seem to turn into a lockdown defense. We'll see if Hawkinson, but once they get inside the 20, they seem to turn into a lockdown defense. Yeah. We'll see if Hawkinson plays. I'm not sure there's going to be a revenge game. I don't know if he's going to be able to ramp up quite enough. Uh, but you mentioned branch. I'm so impressed

with him. Kind of reminds me of a Harrison Smith type player where you never know what he's going to be. I hit him, him, him and honey badger together. Yeah. That's kind of the high, because he plays so hard and physical, but he has the range and the speed to pretty much play any position in that secondary. He's a chameleon in the secondary. He can blend in wherever you need him. And I think he's, all the good safeties, I mean, put them together, and he's kind of like the hybrid of the, if you wanted wanted a prototypical safety he's what what you would want yeah a total

difference maker on that defense and a playmaker that the vikings will have to factor for i wonder what it's been like there and you mentioned the jared goff chance uh but dealing with expectations so this was something i probably asked you about in the summer, but now we're there and they're legit and they're where they probably would have guessed they would be record wise. It's so interesting. The difference between these two teams, because I know what you're thinking about the Vikings like five and Oh, huh? How crazy is that? Where Detroit is right in the driver's seat as well in the NFC. And we're going like, well, of course. Dan Campbell, when they lost the playoffs, said something like, hey, you might not get another shot at this ever. And here they are, and they've reproduced a lot of what they were able to do,

maybe even better from last year. I'm just curious about not just the players in the team, but everyone, the media, the fans, how everyone is dealing with the Detroit Lions being the team, but everyone, the media, the fans, how everyone is dealing with the Detroit Lions being the team to beat in the national football conference when they spent so long just assuming that you're finishing last in the NFC North. I will say this right now, being around it and kind of absorbing it over the last couple of years. Last year, people were just kind of enjoying the ride and hopefully optimistic. Right now, you walk around anywhere in this city and the expectation is what the team expects,

and that's to make a run at the Super Bowl. People have bought in. We talk about teams buying in and players buying in. This whole city has bought in because of one person, and it's Dan Campbell. I'll tell you that. I think just the attitude that he has and the fact that he has people believing in this team, because everything that he said could happen has been accomplished up until this point. You remember Hard Knocks, he had the players in a huddle and he said, I just need you guys to believe in me, man. That's all I need is for you to believe in me. And they bought in. And he said, what he said could happen has between he and the GM Brad Holmes, the team that they've assembled to put together just hand in hand,

they know what types of guys they want. They want guys who are going to put the team above everything. And that is a hard thing to accomplish in professional sports to try to take the ego out of the equation and to make it about the team. And I think that that's what they've assembled here. And I think that fans realize that and understand just how special it is. But the expectation is that this team is going to make a run. No ifs, ands, or buts about. Yeah. I mean, the Detroit Lions setting the bar at the NFC championship or greater is a really something. What questions do you have for me? What do you want to know? You're prepping

for this week. Yeah. What do you want to know? I'm right here. What do I want to know? Uh, how does Sam Darnold, um, take the next step? Because they, they had a close one against the jets. They're pretty close one against the Jets. And now they have the bye week. How do you see him responding after what happened in London? Yeah, I think one thing is the bye week came at a good time because I felt like he needed- It always does.

Don't say that. Don't give me that. No, I just think that he had played six straight quarters where I felt like his timing was a little bit off and he is trying to calibrate himself. How much do I just throw it to Justin Jefferson? Because obviously versus taking that other guys are going to be open. And we kind of took for granted how good Kirk Cousins was mostly at this.

Whereas like, all right, this is a time to take a shot to Jefferson. This is a time to check down underneath. Maybe fourth and eight is not always the best time to do that. But for the most part, you know, he was good at balancing where the right reads were, when to push it, when to nod. And I felt in the Jets game, there was too much of a, I'm going to, I'm going to force it to Jefferson. I'm going to force it to Jefferson as opposed to taking what's there. There is a little bit of what a listener of mine called the hero trigger to him that you just can't make him stop doing. You're like, you don't have to extend that play. Just throw the

ball away. You can just check it down. You don't have to be aggressive and push the ball down the field every time. And there is a concern a little bit with some of the pressure and how long he's hanging on to the ball because he's trying to hang in and he's trying to let the plays develop. He knows they'll work if he gives it enough time, but sometimes you just got to do the, you don't go broke, taking a profit, throw a little swing pass onto the next play. And I think that he had gotten a little bit off from those first few games because the first three games, he was such a game manager. And I mean that in the most complimentary way, there were no turnover worthy plays or maybe one in the first three weeks. There's been four in the last two weeks, a couple of interceptions that were ill-advised.

You know, I think that just, he got thrown off his timing in the last game and they couldn't play off the run game, which is going to be absolutely huge. That might be the biggest part. Aaron Jones was out there practice today. So maybe they're hopeful that he can play. If Aaron Jones doesn't play and they don't run the ball. Well, life is much more difficult on Sam Darnold to just sit back there and throw and throw and throw and throw because it does increase the chance of him doing something a little overly risky. But I think that having five games and then a break to assess everything and then go back to it really is an edge for the Vikings in this game. I was going to say, do you have any concerns? Because I mean,

you're an undefeated team going into this game and then you hit the brakes. Do you have any concerns about there being a hangover of sorts for this team? Yeah, I don't think so much because, well, one, I mean, look who you're playing. Like, I mean, if you can't get, you know, ramped back up for this one. But I also think that it was, it was a lot of, especially for the defense, it was a lot of plays. Like, if you look at how many plays they were on the field for, they were on the field for the second most plays through five weeks because they got up early in games.

And then the defense had to deal with those long drives, clock draining drives, the Green Bay game where they almost came back, the Jets game where they almost came back. So I think that everybody kind of needed a rest there after. And then they went to London too. So you go all the way over to London, you play a really tough Jets team. You get kind of beat up over there a little bit, come home with the win. But the thing that is interesting about this team, Hobie, is that they're not young. Like when we talk about this team, they draft McCarthy. We kind of think, okay, maybe they're a year away, two years away.

But if you look around the defense, the offense around Darnold, there's like no rookies, no young players, really. It is all dudes who have been there. Stefan Gilmore has been defensive MVP before Jonathan Grenard was in the playoffs. Van Ginkle's been in the playoffs. I don't think this team has dudes who are like, we're five and oh, we, what do we do? I think it's all guys who understand it's a, it's a a long season and especially a game like this could swing them into the rest of the the year where they play easier teams after this so uh but that whole thing of like koc has played you talk about campbell koc has played really well off the fact that no one believed in them they actually didn't like i mean locally we had them

you know nine nine wins, but Vegas six and a half, like they've done a brilliant job, I think, of being like, guys, no one thinks you're worth anything. So always remember that as you go into a game like this, that you're proving the world wrong. And it's been, you know, an interesting message the way that he's used it. The Tigers just did the same thing here in baseball because they had in August a 0.2% chance of making the playoffs. And then they played two series in the post season. So it's like,

don't tell somebody that they can't do it. Then they show up. Well, one more for you. I mean, of course this one, it's the top two teams in the NFC North right now, one undefeated, one four and one. And then the other two teams behind them are right on their heels with four wins apiece looking at at where things stand right now between the lions and the vikings do you think one of those two teams is the last team standing or the final team standing at the top in this division i oh yeah i do but also the way that green bay has played the last couple of weeks you have to take that seriously as well the one thing i think about Green Bay is,

and their defense is now way better than it was before. So I think they're actually a better team than last year because their defense was kind of not that good last year. But I think that inconsistency is who Jordan Love's going to be. And I think that it's going to be super high highs and long stretches of being good for him to be a star quarterback. But I also think that he's going to have totally perplexing weeks that that's just part of his DNA. It's not going to be week after week consistent. So I think that they will lose a handful of games still. There's enough weakness there. And I mean, you might see Detroit and Minnesota at 13 and 12 type of wins. When we get to the end of the day, I really think that these teams are this strong. And another factor is too,

I don't think the rest of the NFC is all that strong. And when you're in your entire divisions playing the AFC self, it's pretty good for you. As we saw, even the Chicago bears run the Jaguars off the field, but I don't know what's, what is your, if you were doing win totals for all

four teams, where would you have it? At this point, I wouldn't be surprised to see all four end up with nine plus where we stand right now. Um, granted what we've seen so far, every single team has risen to the occasion. Even the bears. I mean, you didn't mention the bears with Caleb Williams. He had what four touchdown passes yesterday. He doesn't look like a rookie at this point. I think that if these two teams stay on this course, granted here they are meeting early-ish in the season, they play again at the last game of the year. Wouldn't that be something? If the stakes of, I mean, we think the stakes are big now. Imagine if these two continue on the trend that they are in. The Lions and the Vikings could be playing for maybe not even the NFC North.

They could be jockeying for the one seed at that point. Like that makes it interesting to me. So I think that this is kind of setting the table for what could be. But to your point with Jordan Love, we saw it on Thanksgiving here last year because the Packers walked in here and everybody was like, oh, that'll be a good win for the Lions. And then I believe it was one of the first plays of the game, Jordan Love just lets one rip down the middle and the entire Ford Field crowd was like, maybe we need to take that one back a little bit because that was kind of the beginning of Jordan Love kind of relaunching things. Yeah. But I think it's going to come down to these two. I really do. Unless Sam Darnold

regresses in some way, shape, or form, I think that's at the end of the day what it's going to come down to. That's really the only thing for me that is holding this team back. And they could even add at the trade deadline. We've been talking about that a lot potential trades i'm sure you are now for edge rushers yeah that might be out there that uh the lions could get i think they will i think they will go out and try to bring somebody in right i'm just curious as to how big of a name do they go and get yeah because you have some teams out there who have great pass rushers who aren't doing so hot this season you had the raiders with max crosby he has some local ties here to detroit but then also what about a guy like miles garrett

hey would the browns be willing to let him go and and then you have him under contract i believe for another couple years um that could be that could be interesting if the Browns do want to want to pursue something like that. But conversely, it's all about what are you going to give up or the lions comfortable with giving up draft capital because they have taken, whether it's a first round pick or a fourth round pick, they have found guys and turned them into superstars. Um, so it's like, what are you willing to give up? Do you want to address that now? But I don't know if there's a guy on that team. There is no other Eden Hutchinson on this team.

But is there a guy you can mold to at least kind of lessen the blow a little bit? I don't know if that's on this roster right now. So I think that that's going to be something that you look at on the trade deadline. And how aggressive the Vikings are might depend on these games. I mean, because if they beat the Lions this week, then you are legit, legit, and you should really take a big swing at it. Okay, last thing for you. You know what I'm going to ask, right?

Who do you think is going to win? Who do I think is going to win? Yeah, are you going to let your Minnesota – They're not really roots, but it was your stop in Minnesota influence. I was there long enough stop i was there long enough i was there long enough did you put down here how long were you here how many years uh was seven years seven years eight yeah eight eight viking seasons let's go by that okay that's roots um can i give you a key to the game i I mean, I think we need a prediction here.

I think you're afraid to pick the Lions. I can feel it. No, no, no, no, no. The Vikings podcast, though, I can hear it. I am afraid of the blitzes. Going back to it, I'm afraid of the blitzes that Brian Flores and that Vikings defense will throw at the Lions. Do they have enough time to just get the ball in space

and make something happen? Because that might be what this game comes down to, is executing against that pressure. If I think if the Lions handle it well, I think they win. I think if the Vikings get home, that's going to go in their favor. I think that that's what this game boils down to. But if you need a prediction, putting me on the spot,

I'm going to go with the Lions in a nail-biter. Let's go 31-27. Okay. I mean, I think that's very fair. I think it's going to be tight because you look at the games last year,

even with Kirk Cousins not playing in either one of those games, that first time they met, it was tight. Mullins threw a pick on the last drive of the game for the Vikings. He did. And that was still a closed game. He still had a lot of passing yards. That secondary has changed for the Lions, of course, but I think it's still going to still a closed game. He still had a lot of passing yards. The secondary has changed for the Lions, of course. But I think it's still going to be a closed game

because with the way both of these teams are playing right now, they both understand the magnitude of the situation. I think it's a one-possession game, 31-27. Give me that one. I feel like I haven't made my – I usually do my prediction on Friday for the show. Oh, we're real early in the week, Matthew. Come on.

It does feel like a kicker may be involved. And if that... The Vikings have the kicker edge here with Will Reichert. Oh, man. Jake Bates has been pretty good this year. Oh, yeah. What does he have for like... The UFL hero, right?

Dude, the dude was booming him for the Michigan Panthers last year in the UFL. But still, he's a guy that's crunch time really has not come his way yet. So we, we shall, we shall see. But in the regular season, I'm looking up his numbers right now. He is a perfect nine for nine in the regular season. But has not attempted from 50 plus yet. Okay.

So we got, we got good kicking. I, what I, what I want to see though, before I make my official prediction is just Aaron Jones, the status, because he's been so valuable.

If he doesn't play, I'm a little more skeptical, but these teams are so much different than they were last year that it's going to be, I think a totally different matchup. And it will be one that I cannot wait to see. So, hey, great to have you on again. Great to talk with you again, Hobie. Any excuse to get together? I really appreciate your time, man. Hope everything is good there in the Motor City for you. I mean, hey, you had the Detroit Tigers in the playoffs. You got hockey season starting up, but you became a hockey guy.

I did, yeah. I learned how to play hockey whenever I moved there, man. That's good. I just appreciate all your time, man, and great to talk to you again. Well, thank you for having me, man. It's always a pleasure to join you, man, and rehash the old times if we can. Exactly. Thanks, Hobie.

No problem, man.