Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Star Tribune's Ben Goessling looks at JJ McCarhy's next seven weeks

Episode Date: November 20, 2025

Ben Goessling of the Minnesota Star Tribune joins the show to look ahead to what's next for J.J. McCarthy after a roller coaster start to his NFL career. Then, Maggie Robinson joins the show for the weekly Robinson Round Up. The Purple Insider podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. Also, check out our sponsor HIMS at https://hims.com/purpleinsider Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider, presented by Fanduil, Matthew Collar here. And joining me on the show for the Minnesota Star Tribune, Ben Gessling. And we have a lot to talk about. We got some crystal ball to look into for sure and also want to talk about some classic games that the two of us have covered down in Lambo as we get to prepare to dodge deer on the way from Minnesota over to, Wisconsin. Mr. Gessling, what do you want to start? QB guru apologies or, uh, throwing techniques or I mean, it's, we're, we're at that portion of the process, I guess when the team is four and six that all the sudden weird stuff seems to pop up. But how are we doing? Yeah, we're doing all right. It's, this seems to be life of the young quarterback. And, and yes, the, uh, J.J. McCarthy's QB coach

getting into it with Chris Carter and then apologizing to him a day or so later was not necessarily something I had on my bingo card for this season. But yeah, this is probably a reminder that you're going to go through a lot of ups and downs and weird turns with a young quarterback. It's funny because Vikings fans in general have gone through this so rarely. A team has only drafted like four or five quarterbacks in the first round in its history. And the last three times we did this. It's been two knee injuries that basically ended the whole thing, Teddy Bridgewater and Dante Culpepper. And then in between those two is Christian Ponder. So I understand the level of trauma that people are coming into this with, but like,

everybody probably just needs to take a deep breath because it's not going to be smooth all the time. And that's obviously a team that hoped for it being smooth to contend this year that changes the math too. But this is, yeah, we are very much in the, it's mid-November and the quarterback is 22 portion of the season. This all kind of feels of a certain, you know, place and time. And it seems like we're very much there. I got to say, somebody goes with bleep and clown. I'm not, I'm not accepting an apology for that. that's to me that's too far if you are upset with the way that chris carter responded to

emmanuel acho and where he said like did you see the other 59 minutes of the game uh if you want to say hey man like chill out with the negativity jj's young relax whatever you go with clown i'm just that no no no i'm not accepting a little screenshot apology i'm i'm done with you i don't and also like a big dog like chris carter i don't even think has to respond to that anyway i Because in our industry, we have little spats among media people all the time. But if it's like, oh, Ben, I totally disagree with your take and, and you're biased or something, you know, sometimes you get some of that, but you go with clown like, whoa, whoa, whoa, are we're, we're having, we're having serious words there.

Uh, anyway, I think the guy needs to probably log off. And also with the current technique of the quarterback throwing the football, maybe not the best time to have yourself out in public. Uh, let's talk about J.J. McCarthy, though. and that very throwing technique. Now, I want to give Kevin O'Connell a lot of credit because he was on K-FANN and he talked about what fans should be looking for for the things that he's trying to develop McCarthy.

And in front of us, we've asked many, many questions about this development process. And he's been very open about what it is that needs to be worked on, how they're working on it and all those things. That type of transparency is not something you get a ton in this world. But it also sort of points to where. we're at in that process. What do you make, Ben, of the two conflicting things here of developing a quarterback on a team that was expected to be much better than four and six at this point? Yeah, I mean, it is tricky to do it. And it's part of the reason you don't see this happen

very often. And I don't know that this would have been their ideal way to go about all of it. I mean, they would have, I think, and certainly would have preferred to have J.J. McArthur healthy enough last year that you're at least practicing. Maybe you're taking over if Sam Darnold plays, you know, well enough to keep the job through week eight or week 10 or something. I think there were people in the organization before the season last year that thought that's exactly how it would go is Sam Darnold would, you know, kind of get him through a first half and then you would kind of turn back into a pumpkin and then you can turn it over to

J.J. McCarthy and that's the right time to do it. Obviously, two things change that whole dynamic. Sam Darnold plays great, and J.J. McCarthy tears his meniscus and is out for the season. So it changes the entire timeline of what we're talking about. But it also means that what they were trying to do was going to be awfully risky. And they, I think, believed you could do this because you can develop him enough. You can have an offense that's friendly enough to the quarterback. And I know there's a lot of complexity to it, but you do see receivers running open on the tape. So I think that would be the thing where they would say, yeah, this is friendly enough to a quarterback because we get guys open and you make those throws,

hit the receivers, you're good to go. So you were counting on that, but you're also counting on a lot of veteran players around him, basically being so reliable that this is as turnkey as it's going to get for a young quarterback. And that has not always happened with the offensive line injuries or the struggles to stop the run. I think some coverage busts at times, I mean, you've seen a lot of those things that they counted on, just not being what they imagined it would look like. And when you have those things happen, you don't have the structure that's conducive to a young quarterback

because it does then require at times the young quarterback to go make plays to win a game or makes it that when the mistakes happen, you don't have enough margin for error to overcome those things. So it was going to be a risky process. And I think it's one that they were going to go through. knowing that there's going to be some ebbs and flows to it. I don't know that they expected it to be quite this much of a rocky road. But at this point, you kind of have to just ride it out, I think,

because there's been this discussion of contending this year or developing J.J. McCarthy, which one of those is more important? Ultimately, it's developing J.J. McCarthy, or at least figuring out if you have the guy, because they know as well as anybody. And I've had conversations with people in the building about this, that going 13 and 4 with Kirk Cousins or going 14 and 3 with Sam Darnold is nice. It's cute. It's a good party trick.

But if you are replacing quarterbacks every year or it's well, it's this guy that we might want to pay, but we might not. And we're not sure how far we want to go. That is not sustainable. So it does kind of require a little bit of this. Okay. Even if the season didn't work out the way everybody thought it would, the, the, The job is figuring out what you have in the quarterback, and is any of this redeemable? Is it going to get developed, or do you have to move on?

And I don't know that they're going to reach that decision by next week. I don't know that they're going to reach that decision by the end of this year, but you need the time to figure that out. That has to be the priority. I think that's had to be the priority the whole time. They tried to kind of have it both ways, and it's too bad for them that it hasn't worked out that way, but the development really has to be the main focus, I think. In situations such as this one, it tends to go one way or the other where either the young

guy clicks in and then you look like an absolute genius. Yeah. Wow, it's Brock Purdy in the Super Bowl in year two or Jared Gough in the Super Bowl in year three or you draft Tray Lance and he's not ready to go. And then there's so much pressure that you almost have to move on quickly because the 49ers didn't have time to develop him. If you're the Tennessee Titans, you can play Cam Ward for three years and everyone's going to be like, no, that's okay. I mean, even Caleb Williams in that pressure

cooker of a market, I think nobody was ready to move on from Caleb Williams after last year. You're like, this is a rebuilding team that planned this out. So those are the two ways to do it with a quarterback is either you have to come in and win for us right away because that's where the roster is at, or

we're all going to build this on a timeline together. And I think what the Vikings hope was is that they could create a two to three year window with J.J. McCarthy. And we are five games from him into that. But I also think that we cannot give a free pass to they thought he was going to be better than this. They thought he was going to win games and give them a chance to win the division. There's just way too much evidence of that from their moves around him, the risky moves they made. I think Allen and Hargrave have turned out to be pretty good and we would be telling a different story if they had gotten the 10th best quarterback play in the league would be like great signings way to go um but you know they made moves

like that that are very very short term decisions based around j j mccarthy and the the question that keeps coming up from fans to me i'm sure you've gotten that too for your uh your newsletter that you do uh is about what we saw in the off season because i think a lot of us walked out of training camp saying like yeah I think this this is going the way that they wanted it to go it wasn't perfect it was rocky but jefferson wasn't out there and you know other things like the nailer got hurt at one point lucky jackson and they or thomas are taking first team reps and he kind of worked his way through it and then it has not translated the way that we expected i don't think it's translated the way they expected and they continue to say it does look good in practice so

does that give you a sense of like it could click or it just is so much different in the games that what we saw was not what was going to be reality. Yeah, I mean, I, why it's not transferring to the games is, I think, the big question. And that could be that the game speed is so different that it's not going to work, or it's that the stakes of the game are different. And I do think there are times where he's just playing really fast, like probably too fast. And how much of that is him competent? for it or him just getting sped up because he's nervous about hitting things on time. And there's just, I mean, there was a clip going around Justin Jefferson on Sunday.

You can see him, if you read his lips, you can see him, hear him saying relax. So there is, I think, times where, and we've seen this during games. I think we saw this in the Ravens game where the, excuse me, in the middle of the game, he's just getting a little too tightly wound and everything speeds up so i think some of the accuracy issues come as a result of that so it's like is it is it that and then what do you do to fix that because if that's a mental thing then sometimes that can be a hard thing for people to fix in a game that's probably sports psychology kind of stuff and you know jj has talked pretty openly about his own processes for some of these things but if it's that that may be

better than, hey, it's just all too fast for him in a game setting and he's not able to translate it from the practice field because he can't physically make the moves. And I think they have had a good enough read on quarterbacks. I think you look at Sam Darnold. Kevin O'Connell looked like he was right about Sam Darnold being able to play. Daniel Jones, I think Kevin O'Connell was right about Daniel Jones. Drake May, who they loved, I think Kevin O'Connell looks like he was right about Drake may you're not going to be 100% on these things but they've been right enough that i i think

if you have a coach like that saying i still think this guy can play you do say oh that's not just anybody saying oh this is my guy that i picked and i have to stand by him i think when it's somebody that has shown an eye for this position it does go a little farther but you know it's different when it is your job your livelihood on the line and how long they'll kind of see through that is going to be interesting to see. I think the fact that it has not transferred to games for one reason and the other is a big concern and they have to figure that out pretty quickly. There's some factors here that I would call worrisome to me through five games.

I mean, the statistics are what they are. They don't lie when we try to find through five games other quarterbacks of this first round ilk, it paints a pretty clear picture. A lot of young quarterbacks have been, you know, I've had. struggles, you know, through five games, Bo Nix quarterback rating was like 71.8 or something like that. But when we're talking catastrophic completion percentages, catastrophic numbers of turnovers, those things do not paint a very pretty picture looking historically. And the thing about someone like Cam Ward is that his team is absolutely atrocious and his coach got fired

because his coach was probably bad or the players were so bad. There was nothing you could do there. when you have 70, 80% of clean pockets, you have the best coaches that you could ever ask for, Josh McCown, working on the technical elements behind the scenes, guy who has been everywhere in this league. You have the best receivers. And I know they drop some passes, but they were open 10 more times in that game. And over the last two weeks, many, many more times. And I think that, you know, you forget about those drops when you have great quarterback play and you just move on to the next one and hit the next one. but when you don't, it feels so much more devastating. So I think that when we talk about the surrounding cast, the office of line especially, my goodness, have they played well. And then I know that we are now calling him a rookie, but he's not.

I mean, and these issues that were there, Nate Tice, I saw was tweeting about this from his initial draft report, that there were a lot of the same things. And he pointed some of this out on Twitter, like, here's this throw that he made in college that flew out of bounds, here's the same exact thing that he's doing technically that caused that to happen that hasn't changed. And we're talking about now being drafted at the beginning of 2024. It is November 19th, 2025. And we're still talking about the same technical issues. That is much harder to reckon with, I think for me to get to a point where I'm like, oh, just give it time, everybody that can you really fix these things, even if you are as good as it gets when

it comes to picking out quarterbacks like Kevin O'Connell is. Yeah, I think the one thing I would say to that is the timeline changes a little bit when you missed from August to January in terms of on-field reps. I mean, we're not talking about November 19th of year two when he had the entire rookie year to get things done. I think that on field, that loss of on-field time has mattered. And I think that continues to show up. But to your point, a lot of these things were issued.

in college. I mean, the throwing to the left, missing on throws, everything kind of being a fastball, 98 miles an hour, rather than having what did Tom Brady call it the two ball a couple of weeks ago in terms of like putting a little more touch

on it and a little more of an arcing throw. I mean, that's part of the reason I think a number of his throws have gotten batted down. I wrote about this earlier this week. He has the highest rate of batted passes in the NFL. And some of that has been getting too close probably climbing too high in the pocket, but some of it's also, when you're throwing lime drives, it is easier for alignment just to get his hands up and take it down. So there are some of those

things that people said, hey, we saw this at Michigan. And that task of undoing those habits and building new ones takes a little bit of time. And it's just this question of how much patience can you have because you have a team that's set up to win. They made moves like Allen and Hargrave that are not let's build for 2027 and we're getting the foundation ready and this is going to be the time to do it. Those are we want to win right now type moves. Those are 2025 moves. I think Jayvonne Hargrave, cap-wise, is potentially only here for 2025. You're going to talk about a lot of those things after the year, but those moves were very much for this year. So the tension that that creates and then the fact that he is still this young and he's still.

22 years old. It was a hard thing to try to figure out both of those at the same time. And, you know, the dad in me also thinks about the fact that I remember what it was like to have newborns at home where you're not sleeping very much and, you know, trying to just live a normal life when your rhythms are pretty thrown off in those first weeks. I, we haven't talked about that a lot. I wonder if that's had any effect on it. And obviously, people have babies and you go through those things, but there's a lot of just life change that's going on for him all at the same time. So that may be a factor. It's not going to be the one that determines things for the duration of his career, certainly. But there's just a lot that they were banking on being a little

more stable with him or the adjustments, the cement settling, as Kevin O'Connell put it, this week that have not happened. So how long are you patient with that? How long do you give it? I think it's going to be the $64,000 question for them. You're right. And I keep thinking about how historically, you know, I like to look back at quarterbacks. You and I both are officiados with quarterback histories. Yes. And there are so many guys that had tough starts to their careers that ultimately ended up developing. But we are just not in a world that has a whole lot of time and space for that. And they created this world as well, which always made sense to me, the timeline to build it up around this guy, but if that guy's not ready, it throws a hitch in the

entire plan that they have created here because there are lots of comparable quarterbacks who got off to tough starts and maybe had some good moments, found ways to win a couple of games and then built and built and built on that. But this isn't a three, four, five year type of project because the guy who he's reminding me of the most just the way he plays is Alex Smith early in his career. Yeah. And Alex Smith wasn't good until four or five years when Jim Harbaugh showed up. So how do you accelerate that process, which I think brings us to a crystal ball moment here. Oh, uh, the if for those who don't know, uh, Mike Zimmer once said that he does not have a crystal ball and then someone, a fortune teller locally sent him a crystal ball. So we have had that bit since 2017. Anyway, so I want

you to look into your crystal ball and tell me the conversation. So here's what I'll just take people in this. Here's what usually ends up happening. When games are over, we all get to work. We're doing podcasts and we're writing and everything else. And then there's always a moment after every game where everyone's kind of getting finished up and then we're chatting about what happened. Yeah. I want to look into your crystal ball and tell me what that conversation is like after week 18. We're talking. We're getting ready to leave the stadium. Well, there's another one of the books. what are we saying about J.J. McCarthy after that game when we're having our press box conversation late into the evening. I think we, I'm trying to look at the crystal

wall here. I think we are talking about a few, looks like a few shreds of progress through the later part of the season and say, well, there was this game against the Giants in week 16 that he looked a little bit better. Can they build on that? Are they going to try to build on that? Are they going to go try to get somebody in the off season? It looks to me like we're seeing little shreds of progress. And then the question becomes, is that enough to bank on through the course of the

off season? Because they're going to have to figure that out. I think they'll be patient to a degree with him. I don't think anybody's going to pull a plug on the J.J. McCarthy experiment after this year. but that's a question of, you know, do you give yourself an escape hatch next year? Do you go sign somebody that you could put in if he's not good in, effectively, year three for him? I think it's going to be an interesting discussion throughout the off season. That's expensive to do it.

And I don't know that they will ultimately devote the resources, especially when they're going to have cap issues. But I think it's going to be this thing of let's take a few shreds of progress or promise and say, can you extrapolate that? I mean, I remember that happening with Christian Ponder at the end of his second year, where he has the great game against the Packers. I mean, great game. It was, you know, 257 yards and three touchdowns, if I recall correctly. But he wins the game.

They go to the playoffs, Adrian Peterson, that's something to do with that. He misses the playoff game. And then it's like, well, yeah, he missed the playoff game, but there was this sign of progress. And can he build on that and turn it into something consistent in year three? Ultimately, he could not. And then it was year three where he could. injured and they kind of decide this is not the guy going forward. But I think with JJ McCarthy,

it's going to be a little bit of that thing of, okay, there are a few starts that are to look better. You see reasons to think the habits are forming. How consistent can that be? How sustainable can that be? And you always have to beware of the second half of the season. He did the X, Y, and Z. You really have to look at the entire picture. I know that if he does have a good end of the season, and we will absolutely do that. And I'm already knowing that myself will be guilty of it. And so will you and everybody else. Yeah.

What the last thing we saw is always the truth in the NFL. Um, I, I agree with you that I think we'll be saying like, oh, you know, it looked, it looked better, but I don't think we'll be saying, oh, my gosh, it's fixed. The light went on. It's all, especially with some of the defenses that they do have to face. Yeah. Because you get that little mushy middle there with a couple of NFC East teams, but you finish with the Green Bay Packers who could.

could be fighting for their playoff lives at that point. Let's talk about this game. I think after last week, the lights went out for a lot of people on anything except for JJ McCarthy. And I do not blame anyone for that. I saw a chart today that said at the Vikings win this game. They've got a 13% chance of making the playoffs. So you're telling me there's a chance.

If they win, it's only 13. Yeah, that's kind of where we're at right now. Yeah, it's a tough scene. It's a tough scene. However, the Packers drop. by like 30% if they lose. So there's at least some motivation there to drive down to Lambo, I guess for fans. But what, what are you looking?

You can use the crystal ball if you like for this. Yeah. Like what are you looking for for the rest of the season for everyone else? There's just so many established players here that it's hard to say like, oh, well, I'm looking for progress from this guy or that guy because what are you going to say that about Brian O'Neill? He's great. And that's it.

So what, what are you looking for the rest of the roster around? jay mccarthy from a week to week basis i would start on the opposite side of the ball and i think the big question i have is do they have a corner that they can count on going forward because if they don't that is a big concern i mean byron murphy has not been as good this year as he was last year obviously contract year he maximizes it has a great season i think picks off seven passes gets the big contract and is around again. In this group in 2025, they haven't been able to use him quite the way that they would want all the time

because you'd want him to play in the slot more often than they've been able to do it. But he has not been as good. And Isaiah Rogers, after the great start, has gotten picked on it sometimes. So between those two and then Jeff Okuda being out and Jeff Okuda was struggling when he was healthy, the secondary is a big concern. And then you look back behind that, Harrison Smith, I think this is probably it. Josh Mattelis, we've seen is not the same player when you have to rely on him in deep settings.

And then Theo Jackson has gotten picked on in deep coverage at times as well. So that secondary has a lot of questions going forward. So I think if that group is not better, that requires a big investment. They have draft picks, but we've seen young corners. It's hard to come in and just excel right away in the end. NFL and Brian Flores if he's if he's here he's in a contract year too if he's here he's a guy that likes older players he likes corners that have been around and done it and have had some some reps at this whole thing so the the secondary is a big piece of it and then Dallas Turner

I mean are we going to see more moments like we saw on Sunday or are we going to see you know kind of the the stretches where he disappears I think that changing is a big factor in the second half of the season because they have a lot of money wrapped up in Jonathan Grenard and Andrew Van Ginkle. I think they're both here going forward, but, you know, as you look into 27, you need to see Dallas Turner become a big factor that may allow them to say, we don't have to pay, you know, guys in their early 30s as much as we're paying them at that position. So I think improvement in the secondary and Dallas Turner asserting himself as a more consistent pass rusher with more glimpses of what we saw Sunday where that becomes

regular. Those are the big things for me that beyond JJ McCarthy have to get fixed here. I will toss Donovan Jackson into this as well because I think he's had a tremendous tremendous rookie year. It is as hard of a position to transfer into the NFL as you get, except for quarterback. I would put guard way up there. It's really hard. And he's been pretty seamless. I've been so impressed, especially the last couple weeks, does he continue to build on then, especially as they play some tough defenses here. So the Vikings, and I want to get to a very quick list of our, because both of you and I have to run out to TCO Performance Center, but a quick list of our favorite games that we've covered down in Lambo. But the Vikings on Fandul are six

and a half point underdogs in this game. How do you think that this one plays out? Is this where it clicks for JJ? Do you feel like the beat up Packers are going to keep it close just by the fact that they're missing some players, or is this, they're the better team with the better quarterback and the Packers should win? I'll see, looking at the crystal ball here. I see, like, Lambeau Field fourth quarter looks like there's a one in the, in the 10 spot on both of the score columns. Looks like it's been a low scoring game.

Fans are at full throat on a third down with J.J. McCarthy trying to drive the Vikings late. and there's pressure coming from Micah Parsons off the edge. Looks like McCarthy is sacked. Looks like that may wrap it up. So, yeah, it looks like a low-scoring game. The Packers missing Josh Jacob possibly is a big component of this. And I don't necessarily trust their offense without truck or craft.

I think they still don't quite know where they want to go with the football all the time, kind of who's the number one receiver. Christian Watson's been better. but that offense, I think, has some questions. But that Packers defense at home is going to be a lot for J.J. McCarthy to try to handle. So I think that may ultimately tip this game in the Packers favor. But we did see the Vikings going to Detroit a couple of weeks ago and pull it off. So I wouldn't be shocked if this is close,

especially because we've seen that Packers offense in some low-scoring games, really struggle and play down a little bit to teams that they probably should be beating. So I think this one is close, ugly, low scoring. I'm going to take the Packers in a close one. But yeah, I think it's probably one of those division games that isn't quite as easy for them as they would hope it would be. I'm going to go probably, I haven't really thought this through, but just as you were talking, maybe like 17, 16 and their kicker misses a last second extra point or something.

They tie the game. They're kicker. I think the Vikings have the better kicker, which could actually play a. serious role in this football game. That's a good point. Not that it would ever happen that kickers could play a role in Vikings and Packers. So we're headed what yes, it is. When we talk about the favorite or most interesting or craziest games, for me,

that conversation just starts with 2018, 400 yards passing over time. The Daniel Carlson, did you see the game from Mike Zimmer after that? That is probably the wildest game. I think that I have ever covered of just you had the game was over, but then there was a roughing the passer when nothing happened, but the league was just into that that year. Well, it was because of the Anthony Barr on Aaron Rogers the year before. Right, right.

And they had gone like way over correct. And then, you know, that sort of thing. That game was the, yeah. And I think Rogers gets the ball back with like 18 seconds or something. And they get in field goal position. They hit a field goal to send it to OT. Just that, that one's number one. for me. What is at the top of the list for you for favorite games you've covered at

Lambo? Well, at Lambo, that that's certainly the got to be the wildest one. And I think so Clay Matthews got flagged the Anthony Bar rule. I think on a pick that would have ended the game. I think cousins threw a pick and it would have ended the game. Then Eric Kendriss got nailed with it in overtime. And I feel like Mason Crosby missed one somewhere too that would have put the Packers ahead, maybe an overtime. Maybe it would have won it at the end of regulation. But, yeah, there was a lot of wild stuff in that one. Thinking back through the games at Lambo, the other one that comes to mind is certainly 2016. I mean, the Mutiny on the Fox River, we've talked about a lot over the years.

But that game, they go in there on Christmas Eve. That was the night before that game was when the plane went off the runway at Appleton, maybe it's Appleton International. I think it is. They're probably a flight to Canada or something that makes it international. But the plane goes off the runway by like six inches. I mean, like one wheel got stuck in the wet grass or something. And then everybody's like, the plane's going off the runway.

Is everyone safe? Is the plane on fire? Is there anybody that needs to be evacuated? I mean, I was working for ESPN at the time. And they were like, get over there and do a live shot right away. And they were basically just sitting there, bored waiting to try to get off the plane. But that was the night before the game. And then, of course, the day of the game, they had planned for Xavier Rhodes to shadow

Jordan Nelson, which he normally had not done. They had not played Xavier Rose following Jordan Nelson over across the field when they played the Packers in the past. They kept them on one side. They'd done this with a number of receivers. But against the Packers, for whatever reason, they'd never done this. And Mike Zimmer decided that week they wanted to have Road Shadow, Jordy Nelson, and then they start the game not doing that.

And then I think Andrew Kramer in the postgame press conference was the guy that asked Zimmer, hey, you had Rhodes Shadowing that you decided to do that in the second half. And Zimmer goes, no, we were planning to do that the whole time, but somebody decided they didn't want to. So he volunteers the fact that, no, they just didn't do what I had asked them to do. And it comes out that, like, Terrence Newman didn't want to give up some of the reps on Jordy Nelson. and they weren't going to do it in the slot anyway. But we go in the locker room, and Mutterland kind of tries to, you know,

say, oh, there's nothing to see here. And then he goes over Rhodes and basically says, hey, man, they know that something happened. And Newman ran out of there and then Rhodes confessed to the whole thing. We decided as a group that we were going to do this different. And then that becomes a thing for like a day and a half that players directly disobeyed Zimmer. And yeah, so that one, that one was pretty wild. And I think Adam Thielen in that game had like 215 yards.

ended up being kind of his coming out party. But that was the week after they had gotten blown out against the Colts at home. And that Adrian Peterson had said, no, I'm done. I'm shutting it down. So, I mean, that season was. And then it ended the next week with the weird thing against the bears with people swinging from the chandeliers. But yeah, that one just in terms of sheer bizarre subplots of it probably is pretty high

in the list for me too. One of my all-time favorite Zimmer quotes is Xavier gets nervous because after that. That was his explanation for why Rhodes had spilled the beans is that he got nervous in front of the cameras. That was a couple of days after the game. Yes. Yep, it was. I think it was at the season ending press conference where we were asking about the Rhodes incident and all that. And he said, well, you maybe, you know, Xavier gets nervous. So he didn't, you know, maybe tell the story the correct way. And then a couple weeks later, we see Xavier on national TV on the set Super Bowl doing all these interviews and he didn't look too nervous in front of the cameras to us. That was that was a good one. And

then I mean, most recently, Kirk tearing his Achilles down there. Yeah. And just I, I truly thought Tom Brady was going to come play quarterback for the Minnesota Vikings. I really believed that that was going to happen that day. And that was when our friend, Alex Lewis, finally became a Vikings beat reporter because it's not official until you have a quarterback, get injured and change the entire course of history with the Vikings. So, So, yeah, always interesting times, always great food and not my favorite four hours of any season when I drive down there. But I wish you a safe drive. I will see you shortly out there.

And thank you for battling through a little November cold here for the show. I really appreciate that. And we'll talk to you soon. Thanks for coming on. Sounds good. Thanks for having me. Football. Folks, this year is the year that I actually get my holiday shopping going early for all of my friends and family.

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include compound drug products, which the FDA does not approve or verify for safety, effectiveness, or quality. Prescription required. See website for full details, restrictions and safety information. All right. It is time once again for the Robinson Roundup with Maggie Robinson, special contributor to Purple Insider. I'm out at TCO Performance Center at the moment. So this is our first, I guess, on campus to a conversation that we've had here. Usually I'm inside the studio. We shuffle things a little bit because, Maggie, you are killing it there at Syracuse, where you're doing a sideline for a Syracuse women's basketball game.

So we move things around to do this on Wednesday. But where would you like us to begin? And we're going to look ahead a little bit more this time with our roundup. So what's going on? How are you? I'm good for one. But since this is kind of a Wednesday update, no longer a Tuesday beginning of the week, we're going to turn the page and look to week 12 but to do so we do need to look a little bit at some

week 11 matchups and see how they're going to fare moving forward so let's just start it off with the top of the NFC West and the top of everyone's power rankings the Rams they are rolling and it's their fifth consecutive win they're taking on the bucks this Sunday I think this is the chance for the ramps to just really cement themselves as like yeah they will for sure be in the Super Bowl. This feels like their next few weeks, they're like, hey, it's kind of up for the taking. Y'all just got to do it. Yeah. I mean, when you say for sure in the Super Bowl, that's probably a little on the aggressive side. But in terms of if they take down the bucks, the same way they did the Seattle Seahawks, which was very aggressively in picking off Sam

Darnold four times and even not the best game for Matthew Stafford, but they still found a way to win. Devante Adams, Pooka, Kua, playing at a high level. Sean McVeigh is pretty arguably the best coach in the National Football League. When you have all those things going for you, you deserve to be considered a favorite at the top of the NFC. Right now on Fandul, they are plus 550 to win the Super Bowl

and the Eagles are the only team ahead. But I even think the Eagles with their offensive inconsistency, there should be at least some concern about them as great as they are defensively. But this is a big test because you talk about Baker Mayfield, what he did last week against Buffalo and their

offense. But I also think the Rams have a chance against that defense to put up 30 plus points. It's, you know, the games have been really exciting for Tampa Bay, but I also think that over the last few weeks, we've seen them come back to Earth from where they were. So maybe not quite as strong of an opponent. And they're even at risk of the Carolina Panthers, catching them from behind in the NFC South.

So a great test for their defense. And if you could put these wins back to back to back together, then yes, you are going to solidify yourself as the top team in the NFC. I feel like right now, Maggie, it's those two. It's the Eagles and the Rams. And then there's a big drop off to the Lions and the Packers and even Seattle, as they showed, and other teams that are trying to make that case as being legitimate contenders. And the Eagles and the Rams are one and two in the NFC.

And it's all because of this head-to-head tiebreaker that the Eagles are winning because of their game back in September. So it really is kind of like a dog fight between the NFC. those two teams, but I do like what you were saying about the Eagles being inconsistent. On the other side, the Rams are nothing, if not just like efficient and consistent. It's not always the flashiest game. You said it. Matthew Stafford didn't have a lights out insane performance, but he was good enough. And he's been consistently good enough.

And then you have your Pugua's fourth and receiving yards in the league, Kairn Williams, ninth and rushing. Like everyone else is showing up around him. And I think it's just that no one player is having an insane. same season, but because they're all above average, it's like rising the entire team. Right. And I think with Stafford, one of the biggest things for him as well as he's playing as many touchdowns as he's put up this year is that the lack of mistakes. I mean, he's only got what two interceptions this season. He doesn't take sacks anywhere near what he used to. It's actually

funny that his physical situation is much worse than it used to be, right? He's got the hyperbaric chamber or whatever during training camp to get him out on the field. But probably him trying to protect himself was what he should have been doing for a lot of his career. And so going out and playing like a pocket quarterback that's picking apart defenses, getting rid of the ball quickly, I think that that's actually made Matthew Stafford a better quarterback these days. And when he won the Super Bowl with the Rams, I thought that's, I mean, it's amazing for him.

I'd always kind of viewed him as a fringe top 10 quarterback. but I thought it'll probably be like a one-time thing that he gets super hot, wins the Super Bowl, and then, you know, after that he's just okay or whatever. He's actually gotten better. I think he's even better right now than he was when he won the Super Bowl, which is really crazy to say and also scary for everybody else if he continues to play at this level. Yeah, I saw a lot of people are saying that he's aging like fine wine, which I find kind of hilarious, but not inaccurate.

This is also a fun fact. This is the battle of the number one drafted quarterbacks, albeit nine years apart in when they were drafted, which in itself is kind of a funny statement. And both of them not playing for the teams that drafted them, although Stafford, it was a unique situation. But for Baker Mayfield, you know, the narrative early in the season with Mayfield was he's playing like an MVP level

and then he's lost some of his wide receivers. I think it's been a lot more challenging for him. I think we are seeing, though, a Baker Mayfield that looks like a number one pick, that looks like a franchise quarterback. Tampa Bay just probably falls into the category of having a lot of bad luck this year. But if they can pull out a win, I mean, what a victory that would be. And sometimes I wonder about, you know, teams and what happened the week before. And this is not a proven or analytical theory. It just kind of feels like it happens a lot where the Rams get that huge, huge win.

Like the big Super Bowl type of test against Seattle, is that going to carry over? Or did they get kind of their big win and you get the letdown game after that? We've seen that a lot like Buffalo beating Kansas City, that losing to Miami, that bounce back strong. Like, that's kind of been a lot of the league this year, right? Exactly. Yeah, it's been very back and forth. I think this, we've talked about it, I think literally every episode.

But the parody is so real. And somewhere that I want to point to moving us on is the Broncos and Chiefs game last week. I mean, the Broncos took down the Chiefs. And my question here, and I think everyone's question is, is the dynasty over have the chiefs fallen off? Is this the end of a great run for them? It's funny because on Fanduil right now, the Chiefs are still plus 1,000 to win the Super Bowl,

which is the sixth best odds of any team. And so I guess at least in the gambling market, they're saying, no, no, no, no, no, not quite yet. Not quite yet. Don't go crazy. But it's really been a while now since Patrick Mahomes has been the quarterback that we think of when we think of Patrick Mahomes. Now, you're talking about the falloff from sheer all-time level greatness to just really,

really good, but I think you are seeing some of the impact of defenses playing differently than they ever have against him. You're also seeing maybe the impact of the roster not being as good as it used to be. But there were some throws and some plays in that game, albeit against a great Denver defense, where you just felt like, is that the past? Patrick Mahomes that we've seen in the past. And unless it clicks into place, hey, it's 2022 again for Patrick Mahomes, then I think that they are a fringe type of team.

And I'm not saying he's cooked or it's over for him. But I think we have kept waiting and waiting. And like, look, they're in the Super Bowl last year. But it's not with the same type of performance that we would normally expect from him. They basically last year had to play these close games and then win them. This year, I don't think their team is as strong as a strong. it was last year, and they're losing a lot of those close games in the tight margins. So unless the magic wand gets waived and he goes back to a couple of years ago,

or suddenly Andy Reid figures something out schematically, to me, this is just a mediocre team that's very beatable. Also, I think if there's a year where a team like Indianapolis or Denver, that plays in a little bit different way instead of just crazy air attack, it's more of winning with defense or winning with the ground game, it feels like this year would be the year. Also, if you're Josh Allen and Buffalo, you've got to be thinking, hey, if Pat's down, this is my big opportunity. He has to seize that moment. But here's the weird thing about the Chiefs.

In doing some research, the 2025 Chiefs are statistically better than the team that took them to the Super Bowl last year. They're scoring more points. They're allowing fewer on defense. They have 20 more passing yards per game. And they're better on fourth down conversion. So it's a little like, how is this happening? what I think like you're saying it almost feels like everyone didn't really like regress that much but again like we're saying with the Rams everyone being like above average everyone on the

chiefs felt like they kind of just took like a tiny step down Travis Kelsey not performing in the way we once expected him to I think he's on the tail end of his career Mahomes like you're saying really really good but not really really great like he's been the past like seven years that they've, or what is it, seven or nine that they've gone to the championships with him. It's just, it's not there. It feels like that X factor that no one knows how to name and no one knows exactly how to pinpoint other than like, yeah, it's not working, but why.

And I don't think the own team knows that. I don't think there's a perfect answer for it. I mean, I think last year was one of the craziest years ever for a team to win at the end of games. And that is a very hard thing to repeat. Sometimes I joke around that one-score games, they don't count, right? Which is how sometimes the analytics community talks about them. But really, like if you break down the number of games last year that they had to barely eke out against maybe not the best opponents.

Now, again, they found a way to do it against Buffalo and get to the Super Bowl. So that's what really matters. But if you're trying to do that year after year after year, I feel like you could do that for a season. And then, as you said, if you drift off a little bit defensive, If you lose some weapons, if you don't block as well, then those one score games turn into losses. And also, look, Denver, you know, Bo Nix has a year under his belt now. And they had a year to build and get some better weapons and get, you know, some improvements on defense. So those teams that you beat by one score might be that much better also as well this year.

And sometimes sports is random like that. But we don't expect the Chiefs based on their history to be having to win games for multiple years by just the skin of their teeth. We expect them to be putting up 500 yards passing, and that's just not happening anymore. And I think if Mahomes and if the chiefs, think about this, though, Mahomes played long enough where every defense went into every offseason saying, how can we slow this guy down? Because we can't just let this guy run the entire league for 15 years. And I think at some point, there is some catching up to that because he used to crush it on deep throwing. And that hasn't been there now for several seasons.

have, like you're saying, so much time to watch film and to actually make those changes and for players to really understand, not just in one season, but over time how to play against him. And yeah, I think that's what they're doing is they're just dismantling it. And I am really curious. They play the Colts this weekend who are coming off their by, who have Sauce Gardner making his U.S. debut because he actually debuted in Germany. And I mean, we talked about the Rams rolling. The Colts are also just hitting their stride in such a real way. Jonathan Taylor is leaving the league in rushing. Sauce Gardner could be that added factor for them,

now that he's actually on a good team, no offense to the Jets. And Daniel Jones, third in the NFL and passing yards. Like, this is a really, really solid team that has been slept on because truthfully, they haven't been that good in the past. So if they take down the chiefs, I think you told me this two years ago, I would have laughed in your face. But now it's a very real possibility. Well, yeah, if you had said that they were going to do it with Daniel Jones,

that would have been quite the shock. to everyone as well. But the thing that I'm very interested in here is when the chiefs have had their back truly up against the wall in the past, they've always found a way to get the win that they needed. And even if they sneak into the playoffs, you'd still be saying, I don't know if I want to play the Chiefs because they've done it before where they've had to go on the road in the playoffs and they've won games and they've gotten to the Super Bowl.

Indianapolis is an interesting case because they are relying so much on the run game and defense. And Daniel Jones, these last couple weeks, you go back to that game against Atlanta, did not look like he was the superstar quarterback that he played like for a lot of the season. I think that's been brewing a little bit for a couple weeks. If you look at the turnover worthy plays versus interceptions actually thrown, there's been some that have been dropped. He was taking some bad sacks in that game. So is he going to regress? And then you need Jonathan Taylor to play like an MVP, or does he kind of smooth things out?

and they go into the playoffs with as good of a chance as anyone. I think that's what I'm really watching for with Indianapolis, because I think you can win a lot with running game that that's that good, as we saw last year from Saquan Barkley, but you need your quarterback to be able to make big plays too. And Jones has done that so far. Will he continue to do that? I feel like this is a big test for both of these teams where if this is the time of

year we're in, right? If you win this one game, you go one way, and if you lose, you might go back the other way. And listen, this sounds like a really small intangible, but it's at Arrowhead, which is notoriously the loudest, worst stadium to play at if you're an opposing team. And so it'll just be really interesting if like, is that going to help push the chiefs to the next level? Like, they're at home. They know they have it in their bag. Like, let's go do this.

I don't know. But I think when it comes down to a game like this with this kind of matchup, the small things really do matter. So I'll be really interested to see if like that is going to make a difference. And I know before people come from me, that sounds like a tiny thing. But it's so real when you're playing in a place that feels hostile and feels very against you. Yeah, I mean, all of this, I think, is for the Colts. Are you ready for this? Are you ready to really be a contender?

Because it is a beatable chiefs team. But if you think it's easy, you're insane, right? Just going to that place, playing against Andy Reid with the season feeling like it's really on the line for Kansas City. That's where they have been at their best many, many times. but if the Colts win, yeah, you can crown them as being one of the best teams in the AFC. And then we're going to get to a point where it's like, all right, Indianapolis, Denver, Buffalo, New England, who else wants to be here?

And that race into the playoffs will be really interesting. But if Indianapolis loses, it might be a little bit of, okay, the king is not dead yet. And I think everybody in the NFL and the AFC especially will be rooting for Indianapolis in this one. Absolutely. I mean, you even point into the fandom odds. People still aren't counting out the chiefs, regardless of what they've put up in the past weeks.

I want to look now, though, at Cleveland, which is, as it has been the entire season, interesting. And I say that because Shudder Sanders is making his first start in week 12, Dylan Gabriel, unfortunately out with the concussion. Horrible first debut, first half for Shudder Sanders. I think I read a bunch of things that said this is like historically one of the worst rookie performances we have ever seen. It was the lowest completion rate in 41 years from a rookie. That's just incredible. This was well before he was born, well into his dad's career.

Like, how can you be that bad? Yeah, it's, and then the whole conversation about him not getting first team reps. You're like, I regret to inform you folks that no backup is getting first team reps enough to be ready to start the game. It's your responsibility to be prepared to go out there regardless. It's not an easy thing to do, but that's why when people will ask, well, why did this guy hang around in the league so long when he wasn't a top draft picker the most talented? And oftentimes, the answer is because that guy's prepared and is able to go in the game if he's called upon, you know, it's, it wasn't an easy situation for him to go into, didn't have much time to get mentally ready for it with Dylan Gabriel,

just getting hurt in the middle of the game. And then you're playing against the Baltimore Ravens, who are a complex defense, not the easiest team. I think that the world wants to have a take on Shadur Sanders so badly. And they have, there was, the whole draft universe was heartbroken that he was actually a fifth round caliber prospect when so many of them had hyped him up and believed. But when you go through it, this is a guy with below average arm strength, well, well, well, well below average athleticism, some certainly concerns about the personality, the character. Are you really going to handle this like a pro? Or are you entitled because of who your

dad is? That's a very reasonable question when it came to Shadur Sanders. And ultimately, any other fifth round draft pick that came into a game and played like that, we'd go, eh, that's about what you'd expect. So I think that Shudur Sanders, for me, needs to play his way into being relevant in the NFL. And it's actually kind of gross to me how much of a discussion he has been. I feel like that's even unfair to him, like gives him no real time to develop where he's having every one of his passes coming in the middle of the game broken down like he's supposed to be a veteran quarterback or something. He's a project who has good accuracy, and that's kind of it. And the team is going to have to work with him for a while if there's anything there.

So I'm sure there will be no overreactions whatsoever. But I have just despised the Shadur Sanders story the entire time it's been a story. was never a great prospect. Some people couldn't accept that. The leagues spoke on it. And then it's been pretty clear since he's been there that if he was really good, this is the weirdest thing is people can't accept that he hasn't shown it in practice. And so if he was really good, I promise you, Kevin Safansky would want to win games with

him. But I'll be interested to see how it goes. It's just kind of exhausting to see people nonstop because they know that his name moves the needle. It's sort of like talking about Bronny James. We should never be talking about Brony James. There's no reason to. He's just a guy.

But instead, you know, if it moves the needle and gets clicks, then people are going to talk about it. That is a very reasonable take. And I would just like to applaud you for being so even keel with that. Because I think, like we're saying, everyone is ready to jump to one side or the other. And that was a very down the line, realistic take on this. Yeah, I don't think he's there yet. But also, I don't think he's ever going to get to the level that people expect him to do, because he's not that kind of player.

People would have found that out. They would have drafted him earlier. There's enough film. There was enough research that they could have done to pick him up. But Mel Kiper had to go around back in April and just gab it up on the draft stage and really hype him up. And I think that just started this whole media machine that just is doing no one a service. And then you got to think about poor Dylan Gabriel trying to just do his best. I mean, my God, this is just not.

environment that's really suitable for any quarterback. And then you got, God forbid, Deshawn Watson sitting on IR. Like, is he going to get elevated or do they bring in Bale's app? Like, I don't know. Yeah, I think with Deshaun Watson, that would be a nightmare for them. And they couldn't get any lower right now as a franchise. So they can't do that. But yeah, I mean, like this is, this is quarterback hell. And Cleveland knows that all too well. But when you are hoping and dreaming of third round and fifth round draft picks saving your franchise, you're just asking too much. I mean, I think Dylan Gabriel is a pretty good backup quarterback, but he's not somebody that

you're going to throw in the middle of a season and say, why don't you save this for us? And the same thing goes for Shardur Sanders. And, you know, he'll probably have some good plays and some bad plays. He's not a franchise quarterback to me that's extremely clear. But, you know, that's where Cleveland is at. And I also think that it's one of those topics that people have such strong opinion. about that we just always want to be hammering home. But there's a reason that we're doing this podcast and we're not having this

conversation on other bigger networks because I guess we'd be yelling at each other at that point over Shadur Sanders. But, you know, I mean, if he plays well, then good for him. But I think that people were so unrealistic about this that it created expectations that he couldn't possibly reach. Yeah. And week 12 is against the Raiders, which defense is maybe the one thing they're actually good at in terms.

terms of the Raiders. So, like, who really knows? He definitely has worked out for him. Then he's got the Titans. I think the Titans is where we really see, like, can you, can the training wheels come off a little bit? You've had two games under your belt. If you still start that game, that's kind of the one that I'm looking ahead to see of like, okay, the Titans are bad. Like, we know this. What can you do with that? What flashes can you show there that we can maybe think like, okay, next season, we can expect this from him. That's like a reasonable box to put him in in my mind, which is kind of unfortunate. is the Titans, but hey.

Yeah, well, you know, I mean, but even the Raiders probably won't score a ton of points against you. So at least he's got some favorable circumstances, which of course, if he plays well under those favorable circumstances, then we'll be talking about he's supposed to be the next Hall of Fame, you know, quarterback in a lot of people's minds. But, you know, it should be an interesting, at least a couple weeks for their media. I'm glad that I'm not in their media because this story would probably make me go insane. Let me ask you a question before we wrap up. How are you feeling about Vikings

and Packers? Vikings are going to Lambo. They're six and a half point underdogs to the Packers. You spent the entire offseason talking with me about the Vikings. Our expectations for this team were way different, although I do want to give you some credit because you the whole way were like, I'm not buying the lions. And they have turned out to be not as strong. They're still good, but not as strong as expected. So that take for you has been a winding road, I think. You spent the whole time this offseason chatting with me about the expectations and everything else. Four and six, not really where we expected to be.

Yeah, this is not the season that I thought I was walking into back in June. I mean, here's the deal. We have such a strong outside. How do I say this? everyone else other than J.J. McCarthy is really strong. J.J. McCarthy has not been delivering. Carson Wentz gets injured. The wheels just fall off and the team is ready to perform at such a high level and he is just not ready to meet them. And I think in one of the articles I was reading, the biggest thing here is how do we not have a huge division internally in the team? Justin Jefferson seems really

frustrated. Obviously, I'm sure J.J. McCarthy is frustrated at himself. I think the question is like how long can the rest of the team like hold on and wait for JJ to climb the level if they're at? And are they willing to do that? And if not, I even read today from Mike Florio, Mack Jones's name is being thrown around for next year. Are they going to move on so quickly? Are we playing this game again next season? I think it's just like a, the question is how much trust does the whole team have in J.J. McCarthy and how much of their peak performance are they willing to give him before they look to move on themselves. Right. That's what the rest of the season is about is just how much can he improve and can we get to a point where you're saying, okay, he's

definitely the guy. The other thing I think about all the time is just how close things are. And we're talking about those one score games. And it's never an excuse. But if you stop a kick return or if you, I don't know, beat a Ravens team that wasn't that good, or if you win against Pittsburgh after coming back in the fourth quarter and getting the ball with a chance to go win that game. The margins for this feeling so much different because if they had a six and four record instead of four and six, I think we would have been saying, okay, well, JJ has been not that great. But, you know, if he turns a corner, then they could be a playoff team and still accomplish the things they expected. But a couple of those close losses, it's put them in such a big

hole. And you mentioned it. Supporting cast is the accepted to the terminology there. I think that you are looking for. But that's the thing, right? It's so many players are playing well right now and it turned corners this season to be what we thought. The supporting cast is very good. And they are sitting here at two games below 500. It's kind of mind-boggling. But great stuff, as always. I know you're going to do a lot more ACC network and everything that you're doing there at Syracuse. So I'm happy to see it, even if we have to adjust some schedule, something. times, but I'm glad that we could work this out. And we will definitely do it again next week. Thank you, Maggie, very much. Sounds good. Thanks, y'all. Football.