Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Star Tribune's Chip Scoggins talks Cousins-Zimmer, Vikings offensive-line and whether past draft picks were hits

Episode Date: April 20, 2021

Star Tribune columnist and former beat reporter Chip Scoggins starts out by talking about John David Booty and whether it's smart to draft late-round quarterbacks and then ends up where everyone always ends up with Vikings draft talk: The offensive line. Chip and Matthew talk about whether the VIkings will actually pick OL in the first round and whether Kirk Cousins has a right to be frustrated with the lack of commitment to the O-line. Plus what has it meant for Cousins and Mike Zimmer to not be in lockstep. And were Percy Harvin, Cordarrelle Patterson and Anthony Barr good draft picks? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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That's like your favorite thing. You'll never get old. It will not because it was the earliest days of Twitter, and your company was saying, you and Judd, you guys got to get out there and you got to hashtag stuff, and you got to give all these short bursts of updates and the things that we used to think about social media. And so the fact that the tweets are still hanging around, if you search hashtag stripvikes, it never stops being funny.

They are so bad. So this would have been probably 2000 and would have been the eighth season or seven, probably eight, right? I think it was our second year together, or maybe our first year, but whatever the, I don't want to say it was the first year of Twitter, but it was still kind of this novelty, like, what is this thing? What do we do with this? It was like a new toy. And I still remember Judd and I sitting outside Gage Hall, that's where they used to stay, the players in the dorm there, and on reporting day, and it would be like you know random player you know

anthony herrera has and it you know we would get these responses from people who were on twitter like this is great keep it up so of course that was like you know feeding red meat to the lions with me and just like so then we went overboard. But then we were told, you've got to have strip bikes. Hashtag strip bikes in there with all your tweets so we can, whatever you call it, have them all in one place and they can have it in, you know, like a file running. So we were idiots. And it was just boring, most mundane tweets that had no – but people liked it. I mean it was – but it was trial and error, I would say, with us sending out tweets.

We didn't really know where it was going, who was getting it. I did have a friend, a close friend of mine who said – I've got to be honest with you. I had to turn it off. I had to stop following you guys because you were driving me crazy. There were so many of them. Yeah, I just searched it, and, I mean, it goes back. It goes back a way. Like 2008?

Yeah. There are thousands. Yeah, I don't know how many. Let's see. Well, there is one from 2018, me making fun of you. Oh, that's right. Strip bikes. But, yes, there are many many many many well imagine

judd i mean as people know judd you know given this new invention this new toy to to blast out vikings news um to say we were a little over the top was probably putting it kindly uh yeah well my favorite is anytime john david booty shows up oh that. Well, my favorite is any time John David Booty shows up. Oh, my favorite John David Booty. So we always stayed out away from our hotel was away from the campus, you know, and there was

an Applebee's there that we pretty much shut down every night. So John David and another player, I can't remember who it was, Lyman came in there and, like, saw me and Judd. The look on his face was like, oh, my God. I deal with you two, like, all day long on campus,

and I have to come here and see you again. But the John David booty era, that was – how long – he was here, what, two years? I think it was two, yeah. What a time. Did he ever take a snap in an NFL game? No. No, he did not. In fact, you can't even click on his name on football reference because he did not ever take a snap in an NFL game.

Did he go to another team after he left here? Was he part of it? Did he get released? I'm going to look. This is the content everyone needs. This is the rabbit hole. This is how you wind up in rabbit holes, right? Yeah.

John David Boone, the rabbit hole this is how you wind up in rabbit holes right yeah you said you said before you came on here you're gonna surprise me i surprised you yeah that's right that's right uh so yes he did go to the tennessee titans and houston texans and did spend some time as a practice squad member of those squads john John David Booty. John David Booty is a lesson in the developmental quarterback that basically it's the every once in a while someone gets insanely lucky with Tom Brady or Dak Prescott or Kirk Cousins as a later round pick. But most of the time, their most value that they ever bring you is training camp fun for fans to watch and debate them. What's your philosophy on that?

I always thought, you know, if you're an NFL team, take a quarterback every draft, 6th, 7th round. What the hey, if it works out, great. If it doesn't, it's a 6th or 7th round pick, and you have somebody on a scout team or practice squad or whatever. And I think the Vikings went through a phase where basically they were taking a guy, maybe not every draft, but, you know, in those later rounds and, you know, what are the odds that any sixth or seventh round pick pans out? So if it happened to be a quarterback, you know, which odds are, it's very slim obviously, but you never know, you know,

you might get a backup out of it so i would yeah i would say that my philosophy on it would be that is it better than taking a long sapper is it better right like a punter a kicker uh uh you know a safety who runs but even a linebacker right yeah i Yeah. I mean, why not? I mean, if you're just taking guys that you don't know if they're going to pan out anyways, I would, you know. They're almost all lighting picks on fire no matter what. But, I mean, if you ended up, your point is, I think, exactly correct. That if you ended up with even an average backup quarterback who gave you two games or three games in his career where he came into one let's say i'm looking through the late picks let's say you drafted bruce gradkowski and he becomes your backup quarterback or ryan fitzpatrick or matt castle and they become backup quarterbacks who

have to come in for four games and win you two of them is that worth more than a special teams or practice squad linebacker i mean the linebackers is a great example because, I mean, those guys almost never become something. Or the corners who run way too slow to be top picks or anything like that, receivers even in the seventh round. We've seen that from Dylan Mitchell and Stacy Coley. I mean, the answer is yes, you might as well take Nate Stanley because if he ever plays in a single game, he's worth almost everybody.

Yeah, exactly. And is Nate Stanley your backup this year if you're Mike Zimmer? I think it's going to be Jake Browning, but I don't know. Yeah. Where do they take Jake Browning? Was he undrafted or was he – Yeah, he was undrafted. Or it's going to be Davis Mills or Kellen Mond.

I don't know. I think that's that's where i say don't bother though for me it's don't bother if it's the the third it's got to be past if it's past the second like third to fifth where you can get real players those guys almost never work out unless you get stupid stupid lucky like russell wilson or something correct yeah and and are you really going to find your franchise guy? No, it's happened. There's been cases, obviously, Tom Brady, but in the fourth round, probably not.

If you're looking for your franchise guy, he needs to be, you know, obviously first round, which is why we're going to see, what, five quarterbacks taken in the top ten picks next week? Yes, and maybe even six in the first round. We'll see if someone is higher. Who's the sixth? Kyle Trask is likely to be. Yes, and maybe even six in the first round. We'll see if someone is higher. Who's the six? Kyle Trask is likely to be. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. You never know, but I think, by and large, I think most people think there's going to be five in the top ten picks, right? All those guys gone. Which I think is good news for the Vikings, right? It'd be interesting to see if they were – how fun would it be if they were ultra-aggressive and went up and tried to get one of those guys, which I don't – obviously not very likely. But I do think having a run on those, I think there will be a number of wide receivers taken.

So that left tackle or guard is going to be there for him, Matthew, finally, right? And then Zim's going to say, I need that rush in over there. There are good corners in the middle of the first round. So I'm just saying that that is the thing. But, you know, your point, though, if one of those quarterbacks drops, this is the situation that, to be honest with you, for drama purposes, I'm really hoping for. Because let's say Mac Jones is not taken in the top 10

and then you're looking at the Vikings going hey guys like are are you interested do you want Mac Jones I mean after a lot of the hype from him his college career even the comparisons I don't really necessarily agree that he's like Kirk Cousins but if you had Kirk Cousins for 10 million dollars he's probably really good for you right so yeah with Cousins, but if you had Kirk Cousins for $10 million, he's probably really good for you, right? So with Cousins' situation with his cap and everything, I mean, if they had Mac Jones on the board and they draft Quiddy Pay or something, and then the Patriots pick Mac Jones, you go, oh, no, what did we just do? Yeah, yeah, and I mean, because the thing is, and the Packers have done this, you know, why put off a decision that you're going to have to do eventually?

And, you know, it's not the worst thing in the world to have a quarterback sit for a year if this is – you know, if you feel like you can – if you're in position to go get a guy that you feel like is your franchise guy going forward, have him sit for years. Not the worst idea in the patient, obviously, owners, and I think they do like and respect the Zimmer-Spielman tandem. But there has to be some urgency this year to get to the playoffs and not have kind of the massive ebbs and flows that we've seen. And so that first-round pick I I think they probably looked at as, we need to use it on somebody that's going to help right now. And so, you know, it's fun for drama and fun to speculate.

I think they're probably looking at it as, you know, I know people are saying rush in, but to me you have to address this offensive line. First, second pick. I mean, I'm sorry. I don't know if your defense is completely fixed, but it's a long ways towards being fixed with all the moves that they made and guys coming back.

And so now you have to turn your attention to the offensive line because this needs to be a playoff team this year. I really do. I'm not going to be surprised if it's not, if there's a complete regime change at the end of this. The thing with drafting an offensive lineman is just how hard it is for offensive linemen to step right in and be great. And so that's the thing about when we talk about, oh,

while they're in win now mode and everything else, it really is free agency where you can update your team and make them better as they have with Delvin Tomlinson. And even Patrick Peterson, if he's just okay, that's still way better than what they had. It's just that if you were a gambling person, for example, and they set the line at 8.5, which is where it is for the Vikings right now, and then I told you who they drafted. Oh, they got Quiddy Pay, and they got your guy from Tennessee, Josh Palmer, is a nice little wide receiver. Are you changing your bet at that point?

I mean, like, I wouldn't. I wouldn't change any bet that I made before the draft to after the draft. No, I agree because any, let's say whatever lineman you draft, you know, Kristen Derrissaw, whoever. I mean, Brian Orissaw, whoever. I mean, Brian O'Neal, we think he's a high-level tackle right now. He went through struggles, right? I mean, we think Bradbury's the answer.

That's a first-round pick. And so just because you're getting a guy in the first – and I'm guilty of it too, and I think a lot of people are. It's like, just get a first-round pick and you're good. You know, you plug in. Well, they're going to have struggles. And, you know, with Cleveland, his situation is obviously different without the offseason and really just kind of things thrown together on the fly. I'm more inclined to give him a little bit of a pass on, you know, his development.

But Matthew, they may not have have these players may not get on the field until training camp this year i mean it came out today that players are not going to do the in person offseason stuff and so um it may be the same situation so yes i agree i don't know that if they take a first round pick that we can just say the offensive offensive tackle that the offensive line is fixed now because there's going to be growing pains, but it still has to be a step up from what they had, right? I mean, and so because right now, who is your left tackle? You think it's going to be Brian O'Neal?

Well, see, that's the tough part about making a step forward from where they were because Riley Reeve played really well last year. neil well that see that's the tough part about making a step forward from where they were because rasha or riley reef played really well last year i mean he was uh one of the better tackles in terms of pressure rate allowed in the entire nfl so now you bring back rashad hill i think is an insurance policy if the other guy isn't ready to step in but there's a situation chip where this is actually worse because the rookie steps in and is not as good as riley reef and you still end up with the guard situation which is why if they are desperate this year to fix this in the draft i think you have to take someone like

elijah vera tucker or rashad slater rashad slater who can play guard at first and then you're right that any guard is going to be better than Dakota Dozier was last year. And that's the thing. I mean, the Vera Tucker kid from USC I think probably would make sense because we don't know what their thinking is behind the scenes. Is it going to be Brian O'Neal? Are they going to move Cleveland, kick him out there, or keep him at guard? And so without knowing how they view how they're going to do the left tackle position,

my guess is if I had to put money on it, I probably would say they'll probably move Brian O'Neill over there and then put Rashad Hill or whoever you want. Because there's probably going to still be some veteran casualties because they make too much money, right, after the draft. And so you may be able to find a a guy who still has some pretty good tread on his tires but just made too much money for the team at right tackle and then and then you can plug that then you could take you know maybe a para tucker whoever

your highest rated guard is on your board at that first round and put them in there and that's obviously going to be an upgrade and then that then your line is better but you're right i mean the riley riley reef i, you could make an argument. He was their best lineman last year. Some might say Brian O'Neill, but Reif obviously had a big-time bounce-back season, and so you weakened your line there by not bringing him back. And maybe he didn't want to come back, obviously, after what happened previously. But if you're Kirk Cousins and you see this offseason,

don't you think you're privately saying, hello? The defense is great. It's looking good over there. You're getting better there. But, you know, where's the help coming on the offensive line? I have gone through this thought many times, Chip, where I'm like, I wonder what Kirk, you know Kirk says in the home privately about some of the things that they've done. Because when they traded Stefan Diggs, he did an interview, and he sounded pretty down about that, naturally.

I mean, it's not lost on Kirk Cousins how good Stefan Diggs was. So then they get incredibly lucky and land Justin Jefferson. He does the thing that almost nobody does, which is become an instant superstar. And so, okay, you know, you're happy again. But at the same time, Adam Thielen's out for one game because of COVID. And you're like, okay, Chad Beebe, let's go, buddy. And, you know, they beat the Panthers with those two guys,

with BC Johnson and Chad Beebe. But it's almost like, you know, he's got a great running back and he's guys with BC Johnson and Chad Beebe. But it's, it's almost like, you know, he's got a great running back and he's had two great receivers and good tight ends. And there's not a whole lot to complain about there. So it's a good situation overall, but I wonder if he scratches his head just as much as us going,

do you guys not realize it's the guard who's giving up the pressure all the time? Like I even think if Rashad Hill was their left tackle last year it's probably okay because teams were just attacking the guards all the time I mean you'd look at the third down tape and you would just see like here here's another blitz right up the middle because they know these guys can't handle it and tell me how that's better right now than it was then as we go into the draft well you know you know, Cousins is no dummy, right? I mean, he knows that how much pressure he got just right at the gut

and how many times the pocket just collapsed right in his face. And he's backpedaling and ducking and doing all this because his interior just didn't hold up against the pass rush. And then he sees they bring back the left guard, and there's been no upgrades yet in free agency. And obviously they make defense a priority in free agency. But yeah, I mean he would – I think it's probably human nature for him to think, okay, are they going to do anything here to fix the weak area? And so because that's – he had a good year, but I'm sure in his mind he's saying,

if we can shore up that interior pass rush and give me more time, then this offense can become even better. And that's the one thing with Zimmer. Every time I hear him talk about you know the personnels are at and he it's almost like yeah that's offense they're good we're good we're good there they you know they had a really good year it's like they had a good year it wasn't a great year and I know they finished top 10 in yards but I think points they were what 12 11th yeah 11th okay 11th so you're not top 10 in scoring and that's all that I don't care about yards I mean well yards are nice I

don't say I don't care about them, but it's more about points, right? I mean, that's where you want to be. So you're not top 10 in points. So it wasn't a spectacular year. It wasn't like this is an offense that's like no other. Now, you have really good skill position, guys, but you have to be better. I mean, there's still room to get a lot better with that offense. And as great as individual seasons that Jefferson and Cook had and feeling and catching touchdowns, I mean,

there's still more to get from this offense if you can shore up that. And I think Cousins can be better if you give him more time and more. Because he is the – I mean, we all know he's not Houdini back there. And so he's going to need more, you know, structure, more things to be not perfect, but as close to, you know, perfect as you can get him. And he's going to put up even better numbers. So I'm sure, I mean, he's probably like a little puzzled by what the plan is if they haven't told him. Now, there are other things that I had planned to talk to you about,

but let me just follow up on this with one more question and a comment that you were actually dropping back and ducking in the pocket as you were saying that, which is funny. Like people who are listening can't see you. I can, and you were like ducking in the pocket and moving around, which is more than Kirk Cousins has done. Hey-o. But if you're Kirk and you get to the end of this year, let's just

say that you go 10-7. So I think this is our new average year is 10-7. And you lose in the playoffs because you face a good defense and just kind of go along the same track we've been going on since Kirk Cousins has got here. Do you wonder if Kirk Cousins would not sign a contract extension if they came to him? I've had this thought. I've had this thought that I'm not sure that he would, that he would want to stay here forever after if Mike Zimmer remains the coach and continues to want to just run the ball and not give him any guards.

Yeah. Money, though. I mean, money is the number one driver. And could he get the kind of money he would get here elsewhere? Let's not forget he's got pretty good receiving targets, and I know the line is the thing, but he's surrounded by some pretty good talent. You know, the other thing that I always say that people don't really factor in is, you know, do people like living here? Are their family comfortable? Are they comfortable with the organization?

Those are things that all we never know about, you know. But, you know, if they're going to keep paying that kind of salary, it would be hard to walk away from that if he's not going to get the same thing somewhere else. And we all know everybody, you know, you can throw out all these factors, but at the end of the day, in professional sports, particularly NFL, number one criteria is how much money you're going to get, and both guys are going to take the most money.

Yeah, no, I do agree. They should. They should because they have such a finite earning window that absolutely take the most money you can get. Although Kirk, for his career, is pushing 200 bills by the way. you can get. Although Kirk for his career is pushing 200 bills. I know that's insane, but I agree. I agree. It's very clear the fact that he doesn't want to restructure his contract or

whatever, and the way he fought for his money. And again, not disparaging that because I would fight for my money. I want you to get more from the strip chip, but so, so I, so I keep that consistent. I want you listening to make more money and everybody else to and get what you're worth. And quarterbacks are worth a lot of money. But I do also think that a quarterback in the NFL has kind of a number once you clear a certain bar. So you are going to get paid.

And I just wonder about after this year when he's looking at that okay 45 million dollar contract which is untenable or salary cap hit which is untenable if he told them i'm sorry guys it just seems like you don't really love me here like you like me but you don't really love me and if you're keeping zimmer maybe i want to go to a team that's just going to let me throw all over the place just just to see how it works out, so trade me. I just wonder if he gets sacked 50 times, pressured all the time, if it's the same sort of underachieving, or maybe he could have done more if this, this, this, and this. I wonder how that wears on him because even me talking about it, it gets really old talking about it.

Well, I'm sure because here's the thing. Who's going to get the most criticism in that? It's not going to be the offensive line. Right. It's always him. Yeah, right. It's going to be him. And let's be honest.

A lot of us deserve, too. Not all of it, but the quarterback's going to get it, and particularly him because of his salary. But you do wonder if it almost, under the scenario you laid out, if it wouldn't be a mutual, you know what, let's just both go our different ways here. Tried. Some success, not what we thought it was going to be. We're going to go find another young quarterback

in the draft or whatever, and maybe Kurt finds another team that he felt like can pay him what he wants and then also be in it because he's going to be in a win. He has that mindset of, hey, I only got a few more years left to play. I've got to find the best situation for me in terms of winning too. So it will be interesting to see.

Let's say they are a playoff team, but it's one and done again. Would that be enough for the Wills to keep going forward? It depends on how it looks. You know, you have a bad injury, but if it's, you know, all things being equal, if it's just they're good enough to be a playoff team but not really a contender and they lose again, is that going to be enough to satisfy the ownership, both for the GM, the head coach, and the quarterback?

I don't know. I don't know. It might be – the temperature will be hot, I think, around town. Yeah, and I don't know either, to tell you the truth. Like, I've thought about this myself, even readjusting for 17 games. It's like, where is the bar? Where is the bar this year? I think that if I'm them, the bar bar is it's got to be more than just a

wild card weekend win I I think if you set it there that's pretty safe yeah I do too but it's always you know you know because they can spin it how you know you know GMs and coaches can spin it we're just you know we're right there and it's just we just had a couple things happen, but you can do that every year. And so I think anything shy of that, I just think there's going to be such pressure to kind of move on that this thing has been here for so long. It's time for a change. Hey, everyone. We have a new special offer to tell you about with our friends at Symbol. If you go to symbol.app, that's S-I-M-B-U-L-L dot A-P-P, and sign up as a first-time user with a $20 deposit into Symbol using the promo code PURPLE,

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out or if he was if he was only a little bit better or if we only we weren't paying him more which you could see being a Mike Zimmer take if If we only were so much money, right? Like, doesn't it feel like Kirk can blame Zimmer and Zimmer can blame Kirk. And the thing you always hear from championship teams is that the head coach and the quarterback are so tied together, right? And it's just like the exact opposite with this relationship. It feels like someone can't stay. Well, but if I'm the owners and they brought that brought that to me I'd be like no wait a second

you told us this was the missing piece like you came this was your idea not ours and so you can't make it this is your idea and this is going to put this player's going to put us over top and come back and say well why are we paying too much money this this is saying I mean that's not going to fly you know I think all three of those are tied together, those three guys. I think it's quarterback, coach, and GM. And this was their big experiment. Maybe experiment's not the right word, but this was the last piece for this regime to get over the top. And so whether, you know, whatever their relationship with Zimmer and Cousins is, I think they're tied together personally. I would be surprised if ownership allowed, you know, like Spielman and Zimmer to stay and say, okay,

now let's go try to get a new quarterback and you guys build around this new quarterback. That one would surprise me. I would be surprised too. I guess I just spend a lot of time thinking about how Mike Zimmer is a really good coach and Kirk Cousins is a good quarterback. And yet the marriage between them is almost like, I mean, this is sleeping in different beds. It's sleeping in different rooms, right? Because I can understand how if the wife rolls around a lot in her sleep.

But you know what I mean? I mean, it's just like you're living in the same house, but you don't talk to each other. It doesn't seem like. I mean, you almost never hear, even after games, Zimmer say too much about Kirk or Kirk say too much about Zimmer. It's just sort of been this icy relationship the whole time, and Zimmer wants to run the ball all the time. And if you're Kirk, you can't really come out and say,

come on, man, we got to throw on first down sometimes. Yeah. Then the media is going to jump all over you and everything, right? So it's just always been this very uncomfortable kind of setup, really even since Kirk got here. How much do you attribute that to just being, hey, you have a defensive head coach who's not – I mean, when you talk about having the marriage, it's typically because it's an offensive guy who either play

position or coach position being with the quarterback and so they're in the room together all day long how much time does Zimmer spend with cousins in the facility I'm sure there's some but not like a an offensive head coach would be so you think just by definition that there's that kind of wall there? I think it shouldn't be because, I mean, Belichick and Brady, until the very end, maybe they were buddy heads a little bit. But, I mean, those two were very much tied together. And Belichick even talked about how every week they would get together and they would watch film.

And Belichick would go through what the defense was going to try to do to Tom Brady, and they would have this big meeting and stuff like that so I think as a defense and actually with Zimmer he was very close with Teddy and he became close with Sam Bradford and did the same thing for Bradford before week one of 2017 where they got together Bradford told me that that they got together and watched film and that helped him in that crazy good week one game. But we've never heard any sappy stories about Zimmer and cousins. Remember in training camp, the one day Sam Bradford jumped on Zimmer and knocked him over. We were worried his eye was going to pop out or whatever. Like he's had these moments with quarterbacks.

It's just not really been with Kirk. I think the only one was maybe after the playoff win where he was like, oh, they said you couldn't do it or something. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. But I mean, aside aside from that, though, we just don't really hear a whole lot about these guys. And my my theory on this ship is that the first impressions die super hard. And the first impression that Zimmer has of Kirk Cousins is that 2018 season where they put it all on Cousins and he threw a lot of pick sixes and got a lot of strip sacks that year.

And I think he's terrified of Cousins turning the ball over all the time. And I don't think he's got the personality that Zimmer likes either. Well, I think some of it is personality, right? I mean, they seem like they're totally different, you know, just personalities there. They're not saying you have to have identical personalities, but I just think there's, you know, there's a natural chemistry when you have something there,

and I don't see it there. But we have to that point, and we've seen and we've heard. Zimmer takes some shots, right? Wasn't Cousins went on the radio show with Rosen, and he said something, or maybe after show with Rosen and he said something or maybe after a game and Zimmer said something. He shouldn't be saying that or whatever. There have been some subtle digs there or maybe not subtle.

But I also go back to from Cousins' point of view, of his years here, how many have had adequate, adequate, what did you say, adequate offensive line play? Zero. I mean, zero has had adequate offensive line play. Now that

said, I don't... Is that because of his salary, too? I mean, it's in respect, I can say, but, yes. I mean, we could talk ourselves in circles on that. Right, right. He can say we're good, but, but yes, I mean, we can talk ourselves in circles. Right. Right. He can come back and say, well, you gave it, you put it all on the defense. You put all your issues on defense. So I also think it's overstated, like as weird as it is to say that the offensive line impact on cousins, like he's also had career high numbers.

He's also had plenty of situations to win games where he didn't, that it was your offensive offensive line's fault. And that, I think, is probably where Zimmer comes in and says, he looks back at the tape and says, okay, I know our guard broke down, but can't you make a play? And the answer is, well, not really with his skill set. Yeah, it's become convenient to just put it all on, well, you know, for the Cousins supporters to say, well, if he had any kind Cousins, you know, supporters to say,

well, if he had any kind of offense line, he would be great. Eh, I don't know, you know. I mean, he's really good at certain parts, obviously, you know. I mean, his accuracy, his downfield throws. I mean, he has some really good strengths. But we've also seen in, you know, two-minute situations where it just looked completely chaotic. So in those – I mean he's also won a playoff game with some late throws,

so it's not like he's never done it. But I think people want to just see it as, oh, it's this thing or it's that thing. Yes. Offensive line is terrible or Cousins? Well, it's not that – it's that thing yes offensive line is terrible or cousins well it's it's not that more complicated than that right um but i do think if you are going to maximize cousins and if you you know if you upgrade the line then you'll know for sure right you'll just say you know what we can't say the offensive line failed him and and if it doesn't

work then then you move on but um you know whether whether Zimmer and him are ever going to be super close I don't think that's going to happen but that should not be a hurdle for them being successful I don't think I mean I just think that – if they're going to use that as an excuse, then just move on and start over with everyone else because it's – I mean, I just don't think they have to be best friends or even have a super tight relationship because I just think he's – I know Zimmer had it with Teddy, but he's a defensive guy that's going to focus primarily on his defense,

and so I don't know that he's ever going to be super close with his quarterback. But the thing that goes along with that is that Zimmer is pulling the strings with the roster, and that has become very clear. That, to me, is the story of this offseason, Matt. I mean, yes, Spielman is his – I guess Spielman's his boss, right? We say Spielman's his boss, yeah. I don't think so. I don't –

In structure? Like if you put an organizational flowchart? Yeah, if you made a flowchart, that's what you would assume. But I think the moves tell us differently. I think it's Zimmer who's pulling shots. Oh, yeah, I mean, 100%. I mean, Zimmer went in there and said, I'm not having another defense like this. And guess what

they put all the resources on defense it's clear he has you know I don't know if he has control over the 53 but he has considerable input on how that looks and that to me has been eye opening

and maybe it shouldn't be eye opening becauseening because we've felt this all along, but it really hit home this – because I thought for sure offensive line would be the number one priority this offseason, and it hasn't even been close to that, obviously. It really has not, and we'll see if it is on draft night. Just let me make an analogy about Cousins and just this situation. It's almost like if your kid was playing basketball, say, Chip, and you bought them shoes and you got them the jersey and you signed them up and so you did everything for them, but you said you got to find your own ride to practice.

And also, I don't really like you playing basketball. You can, but I don't really like it playing basketball if you can but i don't really like it and then so like your kid is like okay i can play basketball and i will and they might be okay but they miss practices sometimes because you didn't take them and it's like the same thing with this where it's like kirk cousins has performed at a pretty decent level i mean a good level in terms of statistically of course over these three years and he's gotten the offense to where you can count on it being at a certain level which is good overall it's just if you gave him a ride to practice would that help like that's your guard here and it just feels like they've wanted to say too bad kid you're on your own a little bit there

because you cost too much gas money for me to take you to practice all the time. But this is where I thought about this, Matthew. Do you think in Zimmer's mind, he thinks, you know what, if I get what we got from our offense last year and I fix our defense, we're a team that can get in the playoff and win games? 100%. 100% agree. 100%. Yes, he thinks that. So in his mind, he's thinking, the offense is not a problem.

The defense was a problem. The offense, look what they did. They put up all these yards. Justin Jefferson was historic and Dalvin and all this, so why can't we repeat that? And maybe even being better because, you know, year two, or Jefferson's year two and Cousins is going to be better, and we'll tweak some things on the offensive line.

And then we'll really make a splash on defense. We'll get a lot better there. And then here we go. I guarantee you that's, in his mind, that's what he's thinking. And it feels like miscalculating again because last year they had their top two receivers healthy the whole season. For the most part, they're two tight ends healthy. The offensive line, it was not great, but it was healthy. Remember, it can actually be worse.

And 2016 certainly showed us that. You know who else was healthy? Delvin Cook for the season and was playing at an MVP level halfway through the year. It's like this offense, yes, it was good last year. And if it is 11th in scoring again and you end up being a top 10 defense, then yes, you can compete in the playoffs. But are we 100% sure it performs exactly the same if you don't help it at all if you don't water the plan a little bit like yeah and and that's where you know the the drafts it could make an

impact if they find another gem it's just that when we go through their past recent first round draft picks it's like well a lot of them either needed time and some of them didn't work out at all like like mike hughes for example the guy has basically never played so if you're if you're saying hey we'll take care of all that you know in the draft that's where i say maybe you know maybe you yeah well well, and I think you're probably more likely, right, to hit on a guard than a tackle in terms of being able to play right away. Maybe exposing them to some of these premier pass rushers. Although there's premier inside guys now too, obviously, and that's, as we've seen, you know, I mean, so many teams are getting pass rushing tackles. But I agree.

I agree. But this, you know, their philosophy is – and I do think their defense is – obviously it was atrocious last year. I think it's going to rebound and be – look, assuming Daniel's healthy and happy with his contract and everybody's, you know, Barr and Kendrickson, everybody comes back to perform how we think they will, the defense could be pretty good, right?

I mean, it could come back to being a Zimmer defense. I don't know, top five. I'm not saying that, but I think they'll be obviously dramatically improved. But if you can just add two more starters along that line, even if it's a rookie guard, the kid from USC, if you move Brian O'Neill left tackle, put that kid from USC, if you draft him at guard, I think get better guard play will help Bradbury, but I'm still, you know, I think the jury's still out there on him.

And then you'd have to figure out your right tackle. Maybe you can, do you think that would be Hill then? Let's see here. Keep Cleveland at right guard and then either Hill or find another, you know, maybe veteran that gets released, you know, that you can plug in there. That would be better. I'm not sure it would be, you know, an upper echelon line, but at least it's moving in the right direction.

It just feels like they're not tremendously far away from a lot of things, but will they get there? It's like you're not way far away from having a decent offensive line because you've drafted. I think Bradbury will improve even more this year. The numbers from past centers say that it usually takes a couple of years for them to really get to their peak. Is he going to be strong enough, though?

No, not to be great, but to be good, though? I mean, to be okay. To be okay, I think he can. They didn't draft him to be okay. Oh, totally agree. It's not a good draft pick. Like, even two seasons of poor play is just you're not a good draft pick. But can he be an average center?

I think he can. It's always going to be a problem where he gets pushed back because he's just not big enough. But he's also had just such garbage next to him that that's tough. And it's rotating garbage, too. It's not even the same two guys. But you've got like O'Neal is good and Cleveland, I think, will improve and Bradbury, OK, let's say he can get to average and you feel close, but it's like they spent this offseason putting so much into the defensive side. And they didn't even sign their version of a Mackenzie Alexander for the offensive line. There wasn't even that guy where they got for the veteran minimum where you went, oh, actually, you know, he could be pretty good. Like Mason Cole's not that guy for me.

I mean, maybe he will be and shock me me but I don't think he's that guy so it's like they didn't even take runs at those guys which I guess that's where I wonder is there some other thing to drop that we don't know yet like chasing after Eric Fisher or Mitchell Schwartz who are both free agents and injured or trading for Orlando Brown or like is there some other thing that I'm that I'm missing here because it doesn't feel like you're that far away. No. And especially like, what do you think the reaction on Vikings Twitter is going to be when they take a rush in, in the first round? I don't think it's going to go over well.

I don't think so either. I don't think so either. I think anybody, but Christian Derrishaw or Rashawn Slater will be, or Vera Tucker too, will be a major disappointment. Rashawn Slater is probably going to be gone, right? I think so.

But D'Arshaw or the Tucker kid from USC, they should be there, and I think it just makes too much sense for them not to take one of those. This is the time just to play it straight, get your defense in in the second round, third round if you have to. But if you did that, I think people would say, okay, you feel better about it, and then maybe there is another move, although I don't know the money situation if they're going to have it to be able to make another significant move for a veteran on.

But, you know, who knows? Maybe they will. Then you feel like, okay, it's moving, it's going to be better. The offensive line is going to be better. And so, but it's, you know, if it's not, if it's another defensive player in the first round, you know, you're going to be scratching your head like, when are they ever, you know, do they not see this in the same light that everyone else is?

Yeah, but I think a lot of it to me, though, is, and I would love to, you know, Zimmer always talks around when you ask him just kind of what is the plan at left tackle if it's going to be O'Neal or something. And, you know, that to me is the key piece of this whole thing, right? Folks, the football offseason is off and rolling, and SodaStick has you covered with Minnesota sports-themed gear. Some of my favorite football designs that you have to check out include the Chuck Foreman Spin Doctor gear.

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extension 232 to connect with them directly to find out how Scout Logistics can minimize risk and overperform and go the extra mile for your company. Who's playing left tackle is not a place you want to be before draft time in my opinion and i'm sure they know right i mean i'm sure they have their plan that hey you know brian o'neill's gonna be our left tackle and probably already communicated with them if it if it is if that's the plan but i mean it's not like they're just winging it you know it's like well let's see who's there are you sure with 15 in the office are you sure they're not just waiting? Maybe they are. Maybe they are. I don't think they're just winging it at corner or linebacker.

Hey, with the Gladney situation, does that mean they need another corner now? Possibly. The uncertainty there. I have brought that up. You might get the best corner on the board. I'm just saying. I wouldn't even – I'll tell you the truth. I wouldn't even be against it.

Like, corner is so important in this defense truth i wouldn't even be against it like corner is so important in this defense i wouldn't even be against it and i do think they have enough money to still bring in a guard it's just that all the guards have kind of gone off the board and there was one guy left austin blithe who we looked at and went well maybe he could be an actual improvement and then he signs with kansas city so we're kind of in that spot again where we're going yeah they still have enough cap space to get someone but who exactly unless they're making a trade or or a surprising late signing is jake long still around i think probably you know do you know what i was going to ask you and this is like a classic vikings conversation the the classic viking conversations i have a topic i want to talk about but man the, the offensive line. Am I right?

I know. I know. It's like a three-year theme or longer. The entire time I've lived here, it's been a tough. Really, 2017 is the only decent line, and I wouldn't call it great, since I've lived here, Chip. Yeah, and we were talking about this. Back when Childress was here, I mean, you think about they went out and got Steve Hutchinson and spent so much money to get – they had the poison pill.

And really that line, as much as we – Brian McKinney kind of drove us crazy sometimes. When he decided to be good, he was good. And Burke and then John Sullivan at center and Phil Lodehole I thought was a above-average right tackle. He never made a Pro Bowl, Phil, did he? I don't think so. I don't think so. He was good, though.

Right tackle. Anthony Herrera I thought was a good guard. They invested in that position, and I think it really was something that they saw as a critical component to what they were doing. It's like spend money. The money they gave Steve Hutchinson at the time was, you know. And so, yeah, it's funny how it's just kind of – it's not fair to say it's become an afterthought because they have, you know, Brian O'Neill, Cleveland, Bradbury. Now we can argue whether they picked the right guys in some of those situations. Not O'Neal, obviously.

But so it's not been an afterthought. But it's just you want to – it just hasn't paid – it hasn't been paid the same urgency or attention as other areas. It has been a money afterthought. They have ranked 32nd in the league every year in offensive line spending since Kirk Cousins has been here. So that kind of tells you about that. And drafting them, they have drafted them high, but they haven't drafted them low.

It's like they haven't taken a bunch of different swings at guys in the middle rounds for guards. Drew Samia and, like, what, Willie Beavers are the only guys that they've taken. It's just the mid-rounds colby gossett i think but there are other teams that look at it and say you know what maybe that long snapper we'll find in free agency and we'll just we'll just draft we'll take shots and they did a little bit of that with like kyle hinton but i think there were plenty of opportunities throughout the years to draft just shots at guys guard is a classic position where

you draft a guy in the fifth and he becomes good yeah i don't know i was gonna say third or fourth that's where you get it right i mean you find those guys and and they you know they turn into good solid quality starters for you here's what i was going to ask you because now you still have to answer let's go i was looking at some draft picks from the past, and I just wanted to ask you if you thought they turned out to be good draft picks. And Percy Harvin is on my list. Like, was Percy Harvin a, now he's a great player, but was it a win draft pick for the Vikings because he never turned out exactly what he had for talent? I would say, I'm still going to say yes, because I think obviously the migraines, obviously the injuries, obviously the personality

would make you say no. But man, was he a difference maker as a talent on the field. And I think you got a – did you get enough – I'll say he changed your offense, I thought. Obviously, you would have liked to have him for a longer stretch, and then it would be an obvious answer. But I still say yes. As complicated as his time was here, I still think the dynamic skill set that he brought was worth the draft pick. He was one of the most fun players I think I've ever seen, and I just wish it went on longer.

It's kind of, you know, I mean, it goes under the category of kind of sad. And, Matthew, I remember the first, you know, they'd always do the draft, and then they had like a minicamp afterwards. It wasn't the rookie minicamp, but it might have been the rookie or when the veterans came to. And I remember standing there by Kevin Seifert, who was at ESPN at the time, or still is. He was out there, and it was like the first practice we got to see him.

And Percy was running around doing things, and we just like whoa this is different I mean this is it was it reminded me of Adrian just how just natural god-given ability and athleticism could do things that not everyone else does Percy was just special and like when you watch him and it was like, yes, it's like, holy cow, this guy is unique and really good. And so that's why I say, yeah, it's – I mean it gives you pause because of all the other stuff and how it ended. But I still think that's a win. Do you think Cordero Patterson was a good draft pick? They took him last pick of the draft, or first round, right? Maybe 29th?

29th, or what else? Let me look. I would say no, because I don't know, and not that, I say no because I don't know that he was ever, and I don't know that anyone has really been able to unlock him as a player. Chicago probably has to a larger degree, right? Maybe that's because he's mature. New England did. New England, yeah.

So I don't know that it was ever given the chance to become the player that he could be. Obviously, you know, Alzheimer as a kick returner and just what he does there, but you would have liked to seen more than just a crazy kick returner. And we saw flashes of it, but just not enough sustained. And so I would say – I say no, but not as a fault of his necessarily. And that's not to say he doesn't have some ownership on that too, but just for whatever reason, just never really unlocked it. Yeah, I think that when you have to say, well, they didn't do X, Y, or Z to help the guy, that sort of makes you pause to say whether it was a good draft pick. Because really, if he had been and this comes

from like president of the you should have used cordero different fan club but like but if you have to work around a bunch of different shortcomings then it might not have been a great pick i just think it's an interesting question because you drafted the best kick returner ever at 29th overall who gave you a lot of touchdowns that way and you just think if you'd use them a few more jet sweeps and screens and yeah you know maybe you get a little bit more out of them and probably and even Zimmer admitted that but probably even if you re-sign him for I don't know a two or three year deal you have him in 2017-18 he's a hell of a lot more helpful than Laquan Treadwell is and And maybe they have some regret there.

Yeah, and maybe it was just always going to take him a little time to figure out the receiving component of it and to be a guy that they could use in different situations. I mean, obviously the kicker turner was off the charts from the jump. But – and I don't know who – if you're doing the sign in the blame is it how much does cordero get how much does the coaching staff get how much does the play caller get and not figuring out hey you got this really gifted player who has some unique skill sets and not being able to draw more out of it. And how much is it player versus coaching on that? I don't know.

Well, I think that Mike Zimmer admitting that they misused him was kind of a jab at Norv Turner, but I think it was Norv Turner's fault because Bill Musgrave was using him in a lot of different ways, and he was scoring touchdowns and making exciting plays, and then they just said, no, we'd rather have, what was his name, Charles Johnson? Like, that's who you'd rather have than work around the shortcomings of Cordero Patterson and be creative. So, yeah, I always have trouble blaming Cordero for sort of being himself.

And when you draft someone 29th, that's not fifth. Like, we treat all first-round picks like, oh, well, you're a first-rounder. You should be perfect. But 29th, I think it was a good pick. They just never got as much out of it as they really should have sure and and i know zimmer probably you know said they should use them more when we say it's the offense coordinator but you're the head coach right and get what you can get what you want you know yeah you can you can march down the office

and say get him the ball right so last one anthony barr is a good pick where'd they take him again dramatic pause thank you chip uh let's see let me just scroll up here he was ninth overall god these are tough man um i'm a professional i do this all day that's right I don't know honestly you don't know how to answer that one I would say it's tough because he has given you

it's funny I was talking to somebody who talked to some players this year and they all talked about the absence of not having Barr with that defense last year and how smart he is and how good he is at getting people lined up. So I think inside the facility and locker room, he's incredibly well-respected for his IQ, his football IQ, and just knowing the game. And it hasn't really – we had the one year where they just had a bunch of splash plays, right? You know, just stood out and you're like, wow, this guy is pretty phenomenal.

And then there's been years where it's like, he doesn't really do much, you know? I will say yes. With a long, dramatic pause, as you said. Very dramatic.

I don't know that I – but in saying that, in saying that, and this might be hypocritical, I don't know that I would have brought him back when he changed his mind two years ago. I think I would have put that money elsewhere. So I'm probably being hypocritical with that. I'm probably talking out of both sides of my mouth. I think that what makes it hard is that there are up and down years in terms of when you feel like watching the game, he's making an impact. And what Zimmer will tell you is that, look, if you watch it back on tape, you'll see a lot of times where he makes an impact. But it doesn't have to do with the football. Like it's where a quarterback didn't throw the ball, which they don't count on pro football focus where they didn't throw the ball. They only count where they did.

Right. So I think. Sorry to interrupt you. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Sorry to interrupt you, but I think there are,

and this is not to give an excuse, but I think there are things that he does that we don't know about that they know about. Yes. I agree. I also think that when you draft that position in the top 10, you are looking for Luke Keek the top 10 you are looking for luke keekly like you're looking for someone who i mean and he's made pro bowls and that's the other

part of it that's hard too is he's made pro bowls and years where we've gone are you sure i mean so that's a hard metric to go by too plus with his size and speed and skill set just when you look at me like this guy should dominate a game when you look at him physically and there are times where there have been games where you felt like he has dominated the game and but then there's times where he does not um and so i don't know you think it's a win dramatic pause for me too i think it was a win as a as a ninth overall draft pick but only by only by a little but when you are a top linebacker on a team that was a number one defense and also a number five overall defense whatever like you've been great defenses and you are a centerpiece to

that you are a key part of that uh yeah I think that that is a victory it's not a decided home run you hit it all the way over the stadium very bond style home run but i i think it's like a double i think you did well there it's just that what's going to always shape the conversation is yeah that contract though that contract that they brought him back on though yeah that's the thing it's like if this is if this was his last this year, or even like if he doesn't play again, would you look back and say, man, he had a great Vikings career? Probably not. I'd probably say, like, he was good.

He was a good player. He had pretty good. Yeah, he had a pretty good player. Then you say, well, he was drafted ninth overall, and you saw that you thought he was going to be – you thought he was going to be just a superstar, and it hasn't for different reasons. You'd rather have on your team than not. Like we saw you'd rather have him than Eric Wilson, who's okay, but not as good as Anthony Barr. So no question there.

But not one way. He's not Eric Kendricks. He's not Eric Kendricks. And that makes it harder for him, too, because the guy who is next to him is better than him. And so it's like, okay, well, we see the type of impact that the other guy has. And even when you're gone, how good the other guy is. And so this whole idea that, oh, he makes Kendricks better. Well, I guess not because Kendricks was playing all pro level last year.

So, yeah, there's that. There's a little push and pull here. But I think the answer is slightly yes. And then wasn't Aaron Donald taking like two picks later? So you also have to forget about that. That's right, yeah, yeah. I think we're in the same boat. I think most people would say that too, you know.

I don't think anybody's going to – nobody's going to say, oh, he's been a bust. I mean, it's not that. But I think a lot of people would say when he did come back and that contract you gave him probably limited your ability to improve this team in areas that were more important than there. And so I think that's part of the conversation too. By the way, before we wrap up, just want to say the Aaron Donald thing is a reason to just draft the best player. Just draft the best player. Don't draft what you need.

Just draft the best player. And I think that they thought Barr was the best player at that time so that's fine but i'm just saying like this is when you go i don't know we already have a defensive tackle i got but if he's the best guy you just yeah and i do think with that i think zimmer saw him with his defense and this is the guy i fit in my defense that makes it. And so part of it was the head coach with his scheme and idea of what he wants, and he saw him, and he's like – and I think that's why Zimmer is so married to Anthony Barr. Just, you know, he knew right away, this is the guy I want in my defense,

running my defense, you know. That circles back to first impressions die hard, I think, with Mike Zimmer. Exactly. It's always so much fun getting together with hashtag Strip Vikes and talking football with you. We don't do it as often as we used to get to do, but I love every time we can get together, man. It's been great.

I know. I love doing it. Thanks for having me on, and I'll see you at the draft probably. Yeah. Or here, virtually. Somewhere. See you virtually. Hey, day three conference calls, man. Oh, man. We'll be there.

There's a book to be written about those. I was going to say, you're not going to join for all 11 of them. No. All right. Well, I can leave that to Ben and Andrew. Thanks, Chip. That's right. All right, brother. We'll see you.