Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Steve Palazzolo thinks trading Sam Darnold is the Vikings best option

Episode Date: January 21, 2025

What should the Vikings do with Sam Darnold? It's the question of the offseason for the team. Matthew Collers is joined by Steve Palazzolo of the Check the Mic podcast to discuss why he thinks trading Darnold is the Vikings' best option. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here and joining me, Steve Palazzolo, formerly of PFF, featured in my book, Football is a Numbers Game, and now the Check the Mic podcast, which is the exact same podcast with Sam Monson, but now hosted by the 33rd team. And Steve, I'm really happy for you guys. The show looks great. Sounds great in its new home. And I spent all of yesterday, Monday cleaning and listening to your recap of the divisional weekend. I was sad that I was not there in Philadelphia because I like covering football games. That's life. It happens. But I really enjoyed you guys' breakdown. So how are you enjoying the playoffs, sir?

Been great. I appreciate you listening to us. And yes, if you have a two-hour-plus task to do, I think we're a good listen for that. I think we can help you pass the time if you're cleaning the house or whatever you might be doing. But I've enjoyed the playoffs. I think a couple years ago we had those you know, a couple of years ago,

we had those divisional round games and everything came down to a final field goal. I still think these great storylines and competitiveness, and it's been fun to this point. I don't know if you would enjoy, do you enjoy covering snow games and, you know, being out there in the cold? Because I kind of like watching games from the comfort of my own home when it's cold and snowy out there. Most of the time, if it's a snowy location,

I'm inside of a press box anyway. I know. There was a snowy-ish game in Buffalo in 2022 with the Vikings, which was an all-time classic. Justin Jefferson makes the one-handed catch. Josh Allen fumbled the QB sneak, and we went to overtime and everything. But the press box there did get a little chilly. I was up against the window.

I was okay though. But since I hail from Buffalo, when I saw people complaining about snow games, I was like, guys, you just can't be serious. This is magic in front of us. And I know Matthew Stafford wouldn't normally just fumble a handoff. So I guess, but it's football, man. We got to play in the elements. What are we talking about here?

I thought it was a really special weekend because of that. It's also, it's an amazing sport that starts, like you could have a hundred degree hot and humid games at the beginning. You can have snow games at the end. You literally have to face all of the elements across the football season, which helps, you know, make it unique.

Yeah, I thought so. I just thought it was also like the way that it looks on TV, the snow globe effect. And you guys are football players. Go play in the snow. It's fine. So I want to start out, though, with the Vikings and then get into some of your guys' takeaways that caught my ear yesterday

as I was cleaning out one of our side rooms that we've never unboxed stuff since we moved in. So let me give you a couple paths for the Vikings at quarterback and you tell me which one you like. There is the path of franchise tagging Darnold and trying to run it back. There's the path of franchise tagging and trading Darnold and trying to get that number of three draft picks they have to go up to maybe four or five. And then there's the path of trying to sign Darnold to a short-term type of deal. I don't think that they would just let him walk because there's so many QB needy teams, but of those three main paths, which one do you like? I think tag and trade is the most intriguing just because you can get the most back.

And, you know, it's got to be tough from a team building perspective because the most optimistic Vikings front office person or coach probably did not lay out what happened this season, how good Darnold was for 95% of the season, just how good the offense was and, you know, him having a career year, you know, times 10. So I don't even know if they expected that. I've joked with you.

I mean, it's the best bridge quarterback in NFL history. He's up there, right? He's in this discussion because he was signed as a bridge, right? He was signed as you're the bridge. You're the, just in case we don't draft somebody, just in case we just at least need a starter, right? Like that's what he was drafted. I mean, it's signed as.

And so I wonder if you just kind of go back to that and say, okay, the, the added benefit of this season is what we can now get in return. And that will, would be draft capital. It is fascinating to me that quasi who's often seen as one of the most analytical analytically inclined general managers is sitting here really low in, in draft capital. And I think that's, look, it's kind of paired with the roster. When they've been able to go get a whole bunch of free agents and veterans, maybe you don't need as many draft picks, right? There is a balance.

I always joke about, hey, you want to draft 12 to 15 times a year. We've seen Minnesota do that before. We also know that you can't literally bring in 36 players over a three-year period. So I do think it's a great time, though, to maybe get draft capital back. So if they could do a tag and trade, there are enough QB needy teams. You look at that top 10, what the Giants need to do at three and what the Raiders, they're sitting there at six, and the Jets, depending on the Rodgers decision,

there's enough teams that really need a quarterback that I think Darnold impressed enough people that, hey, the second chance with him as a multi-year starter, I think, could go through. Well, and I think that there's enough interest around the NFL because there's so few free agent quarterbacks and there's so few draft pick quarterbacks. been struggling to see cam ward as any type of prospect that's even compared to a JJ McCarthy or a Michael Pennix, or of course, any of those top three, which were kind of historically good for last year. And we saw a lot of that play out with Jaden Daniels and even how Drake may looked and so forth. Uh, so I think this draft class is just such an enormous drop-off that there's QB desperate franchises that haven't been good in forever,

whether it's the Raiders, uh, our friend, Eric Eager used to call them the Oakland Raiders and said he would change when they want to play off games. So I've adopted that, uh, on the show, calling them Oakland still. And, but even a friend of mine who hosts a talk show in Tennessee was texting me like, do you think that they would take the 35th pick for Darnold? I'm like, yes. I mean, I think so. Like if they, if they could swing that because your comp pick is only going to be a third rounder after 2026. So if you're instead compensation is a second round draft pick early in the second, that would be a home run for them if they want to move on from him right now. And I, and that's the other thing as I've talked about on the show, it has made people very angry. The idea of bringing back

Sam Darnold, even on a franchise tag did the last two games. Cause when I was on your show, you asked me like, are they going to bring him back? And I said, well, I think we've gone too far, right? They have 14 wins and then they collapsed in the last two games. How much did that shape your opinion? And how much do you think it may have shaped their opinion about Sam Darnold and what they should do here? Unfortunately, I think it did shape my opinion a little bit too much. You know, I kept, he just kept ticking all the boxes, right?

I mean, that was the thing when you have a Sam Darnold and look, I do this. I kind of do this with Baker Mayfield and Gino Smith still because of pre-perception before they got to Seattle and Tampa Bay. Yeah. You just kind of think like, are they ever going to go back? Are they going to go back to what they were before? Is Gino Smith, he was a 10 year backup. Does he really have, is he really a multi-year starter? Is Baker really going to do that? So I've kind of had that in the back of my mind and I've, you know, fair or unfair, I've treated Darnold in the same way. And all along the season, it's like, all right, we've seen it in three-week stretches. Okay. He made it to week six. All right. Let's, you know, we're getting

to the second half of the year. Oh, the Jags game. He tried to blow the Jags game. They're one of the worst teams. He tried to lose it and he bounced back. And I love the way he had bounced back from adversity throughout the whole season. And look, we don't have an opportunity to see him bounce back from two games of adversity. We don't have that, right? It's just the offseason. Just like we don't get to see Joe Milton come back down to earth, right?

He had his great game. It was the last game. That's the last thing you saw. But you don't get to see the next three weeks. So, look, I also wouldn't hate bringing him back, you know. But I do think at the end of the day, if you can, sometimes if you can look at this from like, what did we think last year at this time? And you could say, we got way more out of Darnold than we expected. We can now actually recoup draft capital, get something back and go back

to that plan. And the plan of JJ McCarthy, who looked pretty good for one preseason game, the plan there is partly trust in Kevin O'Connell. And now we have multiple quarterbacks of evidence, right? And when we're evaluating coaches, you don't often get coaches with multiple quarterbacks of evidence of good. And that's, to me, it's a small sample size, but it's like, that's how you separate coaches, right? Andy Reid's one with multiple quarterbacks. John Harbaugh is one with multiple quarterbacks. Kyle Shanahan has done it. Now Kevin O'Connell has helped Kirk Cousins elevate his game well beyond his baseline.

Sam Darnold elevate his game well beyond his baseline. I think if you're crazy in the Vikings, you have to say, we're going to take that chance that Kevin O'Connell will do the same thing with our pass catchers, hopefully a revamped offensive line or some improvement on the interior, and they're going to get the most out of J.J. McCarthy. And now we have the added benefit. We have the benefit of the first contract quarterback, right? So I think you kind of go back to that plan. And look, if Darnold had two good games at the end and they just happen to lose, I would consider bringing him back and just say, okay, it's like known versus under. He's almost a known commodity right now, but I do feel like

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HIMS.com slash Purple Insider. Results vary based on studies of topical and oral minoxidil and finasteride prescription products require an online consultation with healthcare provider and will determine if a prescription is appropriate. Restrictions apply. See website for details and important safety information. This is why the quarterback position is such an unbelievable mystery because you also look at what the Rams defensive line did to Jalen hurts. And then you

go, Oh, well, wait a minute. And then you watch the tape back and it's not just me, but it's also the, the tape watching Illuminati on the internet. And you see a lot of people saying, well, was he really given the resources? Well, they really didn't block it up. Well, they didn't really give options to him because I think Kevin O'Connell all year long built his offense to throw deep down the field with Darnold. And then when that was taken away, they didn't have enough answers. And also what I noticed from, and this is why the PFF grades can be so useful, is you can see in the middle of the season, the offensive line playing really well. And they were ranked as high as top five in pass blocking mid-season.

And then Jonathan Gannon came in and ran a bunch of confusing blitzes and stunts and stuff. And all of a sudden they just melted. And the rest of the games, except for one against Green Bay, they were a bad offensive line. And by the end, they could not handle any of that stuff. And what got them corner blitzes, delayed blitzes, stunts and twists just destroyed them at the end.

So there's all this sort of context required as you evaluate Sam Darnold. They also look, how did Philly win the game? They ran with Saquon Barkley. The Vikings don't have a running game. They were 28th and EPA on the ground. All these things matter to the evaluation, or at least they should. But I think sometimes with football, we know this it's just, well, look, the last thing I saw was really bad and we should just make a change. To me, it comes down to how ready they think McCarthy is. Because if you look at who they're going to face next year, as far as their schedule, ain't going to be the AFC South

again. It's going to be Baltimore. It's going to be Pittsburgh. You know how nasty, as far as talent goes, Cleveland is on the defensive side at playing the AFC North. It's going to be harder. And the kid has only thrown 700 passes since he graduated high school. I just think that's a lot to ask. That's my only pushback on the, like, just go to J.J. McCarthy. Yeah, no, I get it. And I think, look, a lot of it will come down to, like you said, internally, they probably have the best feel for how ready J.J. McCarthy is.

And if there's any doubt or indecision, maybe you try to do a tag on Darnold and just steal an extra year out of him. Because I think a tag doesn't kill your one-year cap situation. I think that's easy enough to manipulate. So I wouldn't hate either one. You know what I mean? I wouldn't hate either one. The one that's intriguing, though, is as a fan base, I think it's difficult. This happened with Seattle a couple years ago.

You come out of a season and it's like, all right, we've got to fix the offensive line. We've got to fix this. We need a couple corners. And then you're like, we have three draft picks? Like, really? We have three draft picks? And so I do think – I don't want to like – I'm not trying to say this disrespectfully to players, but if you look at players as assets, right, they're not.

But if you just look from an asset perspective, Sam Darnold can either become a player for you next year, or maybe he could be turned into multiple players for you next year. And you're right. I mean, the QB decision is it's almost unfairly too important. I think to general managers and evaluators, getting it right makes you look like a stud. And you know, if you get it wrong, you just you're fired. it's just, it's unfortunate. But I think that's how they have to look at it. We could, we might be able to steal one more year of Darnold, maybe a little bit more of JJ development time, or maybe just as a hedge, right? We've got two starters and we'll figure out who's going to play. And maybe there's a switch in week seven, who knows. But the other alternative is maybe multiple players or one key player, right? Pick 35, whatever it might be. So that's the challenge there that they have to make.

But I think they've been given an opportunity because they chose to go into this year with three draft picks, right? They chose to trade up to go get Dallas Turner, get a high-end player maybe a year early. They chose to do that. But now it's almost like a get- of jail free card where it's like, maybe you might be able to steal a couple draft picks back to the situation you chose to be into. That actually could be better for the roster long term. And there's just a couple of things that it might come down to

that we really don't know. And one is how far along McCarthy is in his recovery. If he had any setbacks or we just don't know that he just started throwing the football on the field like last week and OTAs are not that far away. And I mean, anyone who saw him on TV knows he's going to have to eat some peanut butter and Mac and cheese and put on a few pounds. Like there's a long way to go.

And I think maybe their backup plan, if they do this would be to have Daniel Jones resign and be that one year quarterback to be the just in case. Uh, but you're still talking about, I think a talent drop-off that's significant from a guy who was a top 10 quarterback in Sam Darnold. So you could get caught in a spot where your quarterback's not ready, but Daniel Jones isn't good enough to win you anything. And you're just stuck kind of in the middle for next year. But if they get back, you know, that 35th pick or something, that would be just too, too much to decline. It'd be like, okay.

I mean, you're basically getting a first round pick there to go along with it. And McCarthy's your future. Anyway, you just kind of have to jump into that pool. I think now the rest of the roster though, Steve, Kevin O'Connell made it clear. They've got to rebuild the interior of the offensive line, but something that you talked about on the show with Sam really caught my ear. Cause it resonated with me after watching the playoffs. I don't think offensive lines have any answer for defensive lines right now in the NFL. The answer is Jaden Daniels is really fast.

Josh Allen cannot be tackled at my homes cannot be tackled. I, and even, and Jalen hurts runs for 70 yards in a playoff game where his offensive line actually gets killed in past protection. I don't think the answer is as simple. And of course I would do this. I would sign interior linemen, but I don't think the answer these days is as simple as, Hey, just sign Mackay Becton and you're, you're good to go. And Vikings fixed. I think it's more complicated than that schematically. And Becton was right in the middle of getting wrecked this, this week. He had a, you know, really nice block on the first long Saquon run, but he's also getting popped by Jared verse and on a stunt and getting

knocked over at 360 pounds. It was a, it was a really fascinating development this year, Matt. There was so many games where I was like, the offensive line is either unprepared or confused. They're not on the same page with the quarterback. They're not on the same page from a protection standpoint. My friend, Bobby Sloak in Houston, I thought they had a ton of issues out there this year.

As bad as Deshaun Watson was with Cleveland, also when he was in there, the offensive line was horrendous at anything, right? Any sort of the way you described it, twists, stunts, any sort of trickeration at the line of scrimmage. And we saw it on the other end from Brian Flores-led defense, right, with Minnesota's confusing opposing offenses. So it's one of the stories of the season for me across the league, how offenses are going to just do a better job, be better prepared. I don't know if this is one of those multi-year,

we don't practice enough and we just can't possibly get into a game prepared enough because of how much practice time has been killed or if it's just a one-year blip. But yes, talent needs to be better, but coaching needs to be better across the league. And I'm talking good coaches, right? I'm talking guys that have had perfectly fine pass protection teams, teams in pass protection in the past.

Or Kevin O'Connell, I think is a fantastic coach. The whole Shanahan scheme, who I think for years, the on-paper offensive line would overachieve relative to probably expectations because they had a lot of misdirection. They moved the pocket. They did a lot of different things to maybe protect those lines. So it is one of those stories I think that we need to keep an eye on is how the offenses now fight back.

And offense wasn't down, but there was just some games where guys get sacked seven times or they were under pressure on every key third down and they didn't have answers so I think that is something and you're absolutely right when you talk about Donald that context is crucial and in that context of the way the line fell off the the inconsistent run game, the other context, I do think that's the best passing trio probably in the NFL. You know, having J.J., Addison, and Hawkinson, right, in a really nice, you know, Jalen Naylor as a number three with some speed. So there is some context there, though, as far as like what led to Darnold's season. But certainly you don't want to be so fragile that if the offensive line or just pass protection collapses that much that you really can't do anything and that's

a little bit of what we saw like the Darnold's numbers under pressure those last two games were just horrendous and that's those are always tough to predict regardless but yeah when he goes on like a 5 for 20 clip with multiple sacks and you know turnovers that, that's tough to win that way. Well, in a lot of the year, what Sam Darnold would do is just escape and make a play. And a lot of his biggest and most impressive plays were under pressure. And going into that game, which you guys have always talked about how pressure performance is inconsistent, going into that game, he's one of the top quarterbacks

under pressure all season, statistically. But then when it came from multiple sides and he didn't have an escape route, he was just running backwards and looking ridiculous where early in the season against Atlanta or against Seattle, he was able to do some of that and find space. But if you can't block and you don't have another answer. And I think that's the thing about Kevin O'Connell is he kind of takes it as a personal challenge. Like if you guys are going to play too deep against Justin Jefferson all the time, watch me solve this with my deep double moves, triple moves, whatever out there. And it's amazing to watch on tape when it works, but on fourth down, when you have one short route

and other guys, everyone else, 15 yards down the field, you go, this can't be everything to you. And I think in the playoffs, when you're one dimensional, that's where you get beat because someone like Buffalo, they weren't throwing the ball that well against the Ravens. And they just ran and ran and ran and the Vikings not being able to run. And maybe it's a little bit of me. And when I grew up and we love the same era of football, the Fred Taylor's and the Sean Alexander's and the Eddie George's and so forth. But I think that there now becomes an emphasis on making teams pay for some of these things. You're taking the snap and they're sending this guy this way and that way. That's easy to get out of a gap in the run game.

And if they're going to play two safeties in the parking lot back there, that's two guys that are going to need a lot of time to get up to the line of scrimmage. And the Vikings, it was, it was actually kind of crazy this year. They ran way more on first down than they did pass, but they never ran on second down. And I think that they became kind of predictable with this. I just think that you're going to have to have this run game that can get you explosives and that can keep you on the field. And the Vikings just haven't had it since O'Connell got here. It's going to be interesting because I think, you know, again, the, the average media person or the average football discourse is like, well, look at what Saquon and Derek Henry have

done this year. Look what Jameer Gibbs has done. Number 12 overall pick what look with what, what they've done for their offenses. But we could also realistically say, well, Lamar Jackson's the driver. The Eagles offensive line and A.J. Brown and Devontae Smith and Jalen Hurts, they were there. And then you threw Saquon on top. And Saquon just, he has a special ability. Like when you do blow a gap, he's going to take it 70. Not many other people have that.

Jameer Gibbs has that ability. Jameer Gibbs was the cherry on top, but you have to have those other pieces in front, right? Bijan Robinson's pretty special too, but he didn't necessarily transform Atlanta's offense, but he's fantastic, right? He's a great piece to have there. So it's going to be a tricky one. I'm interested to see what happens to Ashton Gentry if the Cowboys are like, oh, he's going to be a tricky one. You know, I'm interested to see what happens to Ashton Jenty. If, you know, the Cowboys are like, oh, he's going to be the guy that's going to, he's got, he's our Saquon, you know, but to me, the, the thing about offense is having answers and be, and if you have Andy, so you want to be good at running back, you want to be good everywhere so that what the lions can do with the lions get third and five, they

just run inside zone, little trickeration. They just run inside zone and they can trust it. So that takes pressure off the quarterback. That puts a little more indecision into the defense. And that's what you just described, right? It's like the pieces were good in Minnesota, but maybe missing a little bit of the indecision on the defensive side of the ball.

So if they zig, we can zag. And to me, that's what good offense is, is always having answers. And part of that was the way teams play Darnold. I think they did a better job of compressing the pocket and taking away those escape routes. Now you say the same thing. You're going to watch this weekend. You say the same thing about Patrick Mahomes and Josh Allen.

Don't let them escape. Take away the escape routes. Fine. They're going to sit there and go through there. You don't want to let them escape. They'll just sit there, go through their reads, and hit an open receiver or whatever it is, or they'll still escape or, you know what I mean? Like they have their own answers for it. So that's what it always comes

down to for me as a player or as a scheme is having answers. And if, if you have to have, and you need to be able to have games where you run the ball 35 times and win, right? That's going to happen a couple of times a year. You want to have the ability to run a lot and win. You want to have the ability to drop back 40, 45 times in certain games, right? If you go up against a great run-stopping defense and you have mismatches on the outside to just chuck it around, quick passing game. To me, that's balance on offense is the ability to have answers and win in any given way. Certainly could see Minnesota wanting to go that route and having better run game answers.

And it's really been three years, and it's funny to say because they've won so many football games, but it's been three years of if the quarterback's not on today, you're not really scoring. And so you better take the ball away. You better make your field goals like they did in Jacksonville. But, hey, the quarterback's not really on his game. You can't just lean on the run game.

And they also just really don't have a great quick game, a great screen game. And that's good. Speaks to the answers. I noticed that the lions blitzed 47% of the time against Jane Daniels. Number one, he ran away from several of them and had 50 yards rushing, but also they threw 10 times behind the line of scrimmage. And I think nine more times between zero and nine yards. I mean,

that was more than half of his passes. He's basically just catching it, throwing it clean pocket. His time to release was 2.2 seconds. I mean, he's catching it and getting rid of it. There's nothing Detroit could do there. That's just not what the Vikings are doing offensively.

And I think they need to figure out how to do that offensively for going forward here. Now, I want to ask you about the landscape of the NFC because it's so fascinating to me, Steve, when we get to the playoffs and we think we kind of know everything for the future. And then all of a sudden our brains get shifted. And I think with Jaden Daniels, it's not hyperbolic to say that the NFC has its guy that the, the NFC has been like, ah, we don't have Rogers here anymore.

We don't have breeze here anymore. Anybody can make the super bowl now, but that may be, that may be a change in. And I was thinking about the ripple effect for this, because now that Washington has this guy, they, they can spend, they can, they can be the team that people want to play for all of a sudden magic Johnson's there, man. And so the Vikings are going into this free agency period thinking, well, everyone wants to be a Viking, right? Kevin O'Connell. So nice, but

there's other teams now. And I'm looking at this Washington team thinking there's going to be a lot more of this as we go forward. Yeah, there's elements of this that are a little unfortunate that so much of the league is QB-driven, and it feels predictable. That's how the AFC has felt, right? You know Mahomes is going to be in the AFC championship. Just a question of which other elite quarterback is going to be facing him, and that's literally been the case, right? It's either been Josh Allen or Joe Burrow or Lamar Allen or Burrow, right? It's been the, or Brady, right? I mean,

that's who's played in the, in the AFC championship since forever. And so the NFC hasn't had that, right? It's almost like, you know, college football is less QB driven, right? You know, if you, if you have a Joe Burrow and he goes on a run, great, but it's less QB driven. We just saw Will Howard and Riley Leonard play in the national title game. The NFL doesn't have that nearly as much. And the NFC has kind of been more like college. It's like, who has the best team? You have a great all-around 2022 Eagles team.

And Niners in 19 and 23 were outstanding all around. And the Rams put it all together in 21. But no one had a QB, like a clear top four or five QB carrying them. And so I think what you're highlighting is, yeah, Jaden Daniels might be that guy. He might be QB five in the NFL or whatever that number is. And yeah, I think, I think Adam Peters did a great job, right? He had one of those off seasons that just looks pedestrian on paper that works. And I, and look, it's also revisionist to say, well, of course, like we knew this from day one. We knew that the commanders were this good from day one. We knew that, you know, Jeremy Chin

and Frankie Lou Vu and Bobby Wagner and all these guys were just going to work. Dorrance Armstrong. But they came together, man. They came together. And you look back, it's like 10 million for this guy and 6 million for this guy and Biotish for a three-year deal to solidify the center spot. Those things add up. And so I think that bodes well for what Washington has done. You have the cheap quarterback who's a stud, and then now you can – like De'Ami Brown shouldn't be a great wide receiver too. He's playing like that in the playoffs.

But, man, they were in the IU sweepstakes before the season. So they can upgrade a few different spots. And I think that is scary, right? I'm not ready to put them in the NFC Championship for the next 10 years. But they might have that advantage if Jaden Daniels continues down the path that he showed as a rookie. I guess what I'm thinking about is just the teams that the Vikings are going to be battling against.

They really have to hope that Jaden Daniels isn't Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen. And I, gosh, I mean, his Josh Allen trait is that he doesn't get shook up by anything. I mean, he just goes into Detroit, and we saw Sam Darnold look very nervous and anxious in that game, and Jaden Daniels was having a cup of tea outside on a nice sunny morning. I was like, what the heck is with this guy? He was so calm. And you look at Pennix played pretty well at the end of that season. And, you know, now Atlanta is going to have cap troubles that they caused themselves from Kirk cousins, but still like they're going to have a lot to work with there.

If Caleb Williams and Ben Johnson take off, there's another sort of rising team again, that hasn't really existed with young quarterbacks a whole lot outside of Jalen Hurts and Brock Purdy. But I think these guys are a different level of talent. I wonder what you think about the Lions with Ben Johnson leaving and going to Chicago because I think it speaks to Dan Campbell talking about last year how hard it is to repeat this year in and year out. The, the Jimmy's and Joe's are not going anywhere, but the X's and O's are about to change

in Detroit. And that was a pretty special situation. But also if you're the Vikings, you're like, he's gone. Oh, wait, now he's still in the division. So how do you process that? Yeah. I mean, I think it's going to be challenging for Detroit, but there's the foundation still so good. Right. I mean, it's still, I mean, I don't want to say it's always players over plays. We know that they, they go hand in hand, but we've seen other teams have to deal with this, you know, new England lost coordinators along the way and in the two thousands, right. I mean, they, and they didn beat. Ben Johnson's unique, though. I mean, it's a unique style with how many trick plays he brings out there and where they're coming from.

If Kansas City lost Andy Reid, I would, you know, they've never lost Andy Reid, you know what I mean? So like New England lost their coordinators, both sides of the ball, but they always had Belichick. Kansas City lost other people besides Andy Reid, but they always had Andy Reid. And by the way, they also have Brady and Mahomes, and that is probably more important than anybody that's calling the plays. And then in Detroit, you don't have that, right? It's like Goff and all these playmakers. Ben Johnson is the guy pulling all that together. So is Mark Brunel next in line because he's the QB coach? I don't know. I have no idea. I'm a Mark Brunel fan as a player. I have no idea if he can call plays. Who

knows? So yeah, I think it could hurt Detroit. And I think that's what makes it so sad for Lions fans. I think that's why this was supposed to be the year and they could stomach losing a couple coordinators. And then you look at a run, they've been unbelievable at building that roster, right? I think the golf deal you kind of steal a starting quarterback without having to pay the signing bonus so that that essentially is the mid-tier quarterback contract they draft extremely well have the four picks in the top 50 that were all that all hit in 2023 but you start to like those guys are getting one year further right aiden hutchinson's got to get paid other All these stars that you have have to become $20-plus million players soon.

And so you're one year closer to that. So I think that's where Brad Holmes has done a great job, and now the pressure's on to be able to continue that. How do you maintain this roster? I also think they've survived this year because of their depth. They ran out of depth at the end, but they survived because of creating a two and three deep across positions that allowed them to handle a lot of injuries.

So they've had that flexibility from a cap perspective over the last couple of years to be able to build depth extremely well. So I think it's a challenge going forward, losing a Ben Johnson. You still have the culture. You still have Dan Campbell, but you need somebody pulling it all together, and everybody's different the way they call plays so it's going to be really tough to replace a guy like ben johnson

who's been so good for multiple years now and what do you think of him in chicago first time head coach and a very very different quarterback from jared goff i i feel like jared goff's superpower is that he sees the field really well and And in general, when he's not popped in the noggin, makes pretty good decisions. And that's not been Caleb Williams. He hasn't seen the field. He tries to scramble and escape the pocket right after catching the football. How do you think that that is going to mesh with Caleb Williams? Theoretically, I think an offensive coordinator is special when they can

adjust to their players. Now, I say that, but Kyle Shanahan, I don't know if he actually does. I think Kyle Shanahan's special, but it's more like he finds the right guy to fit what he wants to do. And Trey Lance was never going to work there, right? And we like to oversimplify this and say, Kyle Shanahan made Jimmy Garoppolo great and makes Brock Purdy great and he makes all these guys great. Therefore, he can make anybody great. But it's more so he's got a style of quarterback

that he can make great. So that's going to be the test for Ben Johnson. Can he make any style of quarterback super efficient, uber efficient, right? And so a coordinator either has to be special at having a scheme or a system that they could put a particular type of player in and have them always play above their expectations, Jimmy G, Brock Purdy, or you have a guy, and this is where Andy Reid, I think, was special. Andy Reid worked with Brett Favre, who had a certain style,

Donovan McNabb, who was an option college quarterback, and he turned him into a West Coast offense quarterback when that was like a real thing, like a completely different world. And then he took Michael Vick, who had never really achieved his ceiling and almost made him an MVP candidate. So Andy Reid has this ability to adjust. And then he took Patrick Mahomes, completely changed his college style, and turned him to one of the best ever, right? So that's where I think the test is going to be for Ben Johnson

because I think you're right. I mean, if he tries to say, hey, here's how Jared did it, and here's what I need you to do, there'll be elements of that. But then there's other elements of we need to figure out what that balance is. And I think the best thing the Chiefs ever did with Mahomes, a guy who coming out of college would face a three-man rush 50% of the time, what that balance is. And I think the best thing the Chiefs ever did with Mahomes, a guy who coming out of college would face a three-man rush 50% of the time

and leave the pocket about 50% of the time. And they figured out how to say, you're allowed to leave the pocket, but you got to win within X amount of time. And they found that balance. And so you have,

guy knows how to win within the scheme, guy knows how to win outside of the scheme. That's the balance that Ben Johnson has to find. And so my cop-out, though, is like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how he's going to. I don't know Ben Johnson. I don't know how he's going to command a locker room.

I don't know how he's going to be the CEO of the team. I know he calls good football plays. I know he has a unique run game that, that attacks, uh, uses every single run concept. I know he attacks every blade of grass. He does all of that stuff. Well, I have no idea how he's going to do this as the head coach. Right. And none of us actually do. So it's going to be interesting, but, um, I just want to see how we adjust to Caleb Williams, right? That's going to be the, the biggest thing, right? Because if you try to run the same stuff, he's not going to see it the way that golf sees it. And he's not going to play on time the way that golf plays on time. So how can you kind of

manipulate what he can do and his ability to throw the ball down the field and things like that, that arm talent, I think probably moving him, moving the pocket, uh, rolling him out and things like that. So he could see down the field better. I just felt like when I watched him that he would drop back and he just didn't. There were open receivers, but he could not see those guys running open. I thought with Williams, it was there were weeks where it was like it was almost like, OK, coach, coach told me win from the pocket. So I'm going to do it and I'm going to sit here and very slowly go through my reads. And then the next week they're like, all right,

man, you got to play free. And he's like, all right, I'm going to play free. And the Vikings game, he's got like five big time throws and he's just, you know, rolling out and flipping it up and making big plays. And it's like, okay, how do you bottle up both of those and make it flow? And that's where, you know, Shanahan talks about play calling as telling a story. There's probably this storytelling aspect that you can keep Caleb Williams engaged. And it's like, all right, first play, we're going to boot you out, get you out there.

You throw on the run as well as anybody I've ever seen. Then we're going to give you a little quick game. Then we're going to give you a little shot play. Then we're going to give you a little, you know, a little of everything, right? So it's not like, all right, read it out for these 12 straight plays on, you know, pure drop back everything, right? So it's not like, all right, read it out for these 12 straight plays on, you know, pure drop back, but it's got to be a balance and it's got to be

a story and it's got to keep them engaged. And I think, I think Caleb Williams is capable of all that. And Ben Johnson probably is too. But it's got to be that, that balance that just plays to his skillset and keeps at the end of the day, he has to feel like he's playing with the natural ability that he has, and he didn't do that in Chicago this year. It felt like he was thinking way too much, and he's more of a natural, instinctual player like a Mahomes, stylistically, and OC's got to get the best out of him. Play instinctually. Go react and play.

I really think that the Vikings' landscape of how hard it's going to be to compete in this division really depends on how Ben Johnson and Caleb Williams connect, because if they work, it's a problem. And if they don't, it's the same old bears that they've been able to take care of for many years. So I know you're used to podcasting for no less than two and a half hours, but I only have one more question for you, which is like, Oh yeah, is uh yeah i know right this was just a this went by in an eye blink um but uh people can't clean out their entire rooms just with this podcast so that's why i do 10 of them

a week or whatever but when it comes to uh this championship weekend uh it's my favorite and least favorite because it feels like it's over. Uh, and, and it's also the best of the best, the best matchups, iconic games, all that sort of stuff. What is from, from each game, sort of the, the, the best conversation you're looking forward to coming out of it and the worst for, for both of the games. I mean, any sort of Josh Allen can't beat Mahomes discourse, I think is bad. I mean, but that is the best, right? I mean, the legacy stuff matters. The QB legacy stuff matters.

We talk about Dan Marino differently. We were talking about Peyton Manning differently for a while until he won one, even though he wasn't good on that Super Bowl run, the first one or the second one. I think that stuff is interesting and it does matter. And, you know, the Chiefs trying to go for a three-peat is unique and special. So that game, it's also fascinating that the Bills continue to win in the regular season and not in the postseason.

I think that stuff is interesting. So I think that's good discourse. The bad discourse is when it's like, like, Mahomes loses, somebody's going to be like, oh man, Mahomes, Josh Allen's the new GOAT. I mean, it's like, well, let's not get too crazy here. So there'll be some bad discourse always. But I think that game is always intriguing because of their previous matchups.

And then, man, Jaden Daniels has a chance to do something special with Washington because the other part too is like, when you come into the season, nobody said Washington had this incredible supporting cast. And this is where the quarterback is so important. And over time, QB wins do matter. How the heck did he do that?

How did he take this rebuilding roster and help lead them to the NFC Championship? And yes, Bobby Wagner and all those guys I mentioned, all those guys matter, too. But nobody's looking around being like, oh, Jaden Daniels, he's in the best situation Championship. And yes, Bobby Wagner and all those guys I mentioned, all those guys matter too. But nobody's looking around being like, oh, Jaden Daniels, he's in the best situation for the rookies, right? That was JJ. JJ was in the best situation for rookies, right? Or Caleb Williams was in the best situation.

Jaden Daniels has a chance to continue to just be special. Whereas the Eagles are just this great all-around team. I think they're the best, well-run. Howie Roseman's done a great job. Doesn't mean they hit on everything, but their process is sound, and they build depth, and they always put themselves on the green to make a putt, the putt being, hey, if you hit the putt, you win the Super Bowl.

They're always on the green and in range. So I think it's going to be a great weekend, great discussions. It is also unfortunate because we forget the teams that lose. If Washington loses, it's, ah, good season, Jaden. Maybe we'll see you next year, but this is the Eagles here. Everything was great for the Eagles because they're going to the Super Bowl. You kind of forget about the losers.

Can't wait to see what happens. I'm always looking for a different Super Bowl matchup, too. If it was Bill's Eagles or something like that, I wouldn't hate some, or Bill's commanders, some real fresh blood, you know, come Superbowl week when we go out there. Bill's commander sends me back to a pretty tough childhood memory of getting

so excited. Oh, the bills are back in the Superbowl for the second straight year. This is the time they do it. And it was just over. I don't know. I would put the 91 washington team against anybody in history uh from like number one to number how many ever eligible players they had back then i mean it just was unbelievably stacked and they steamrolled the bills and it was just over very

quick if that's the matchup this time i don't think that'll happen but uh maybe this is the year i see some vikings fans talking about how we don't want buffalo to win they've always been our cousin in the east kind of thing of of tragedies like i i don't know i think i love new champions so uh we'll see what happens but check the mic podcast we'll be breaking it down you and sam monson as always and you have a whole chapter in my book football is a numbers game if people want to know how you as a baseball player were once cut for Jose Canseco. So that's in the book,

but Steve Palazzolo, you are the best man. I really appreciate all the stuff that you guys put out and we'll talk again soon. Appreciate it. Yeah. Thank you. Appreciate it,

Matt. I'm at.