Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - TFG's Marcus Whitman analyzes NFC North storylines

Episode Date: July 22, 2025

Matthew Coller is joined by Marcus Whitman of the That Franchise Guy YouTube to discuss the top NFC North storylines heading into the 2025 season.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Purple Inside or Matthew Coller here and joining me on the show, that franchise guy, Marcus Whitman. Marcus, we used to do a lot of podcasting together. Then you moved and now you're back. So I feel that it's important that we begin podcasting together again. Uh, Marcus, I'm very happy if people are not familiar with your channel, it is fantastic. Some of the best football analysis out there. So make sure you go check out that franchise guy. And as, uh, we are sitting here on the Eve of training camps, some teams just getting checked in and starting,

we got to take a look at the storylines of the NFC North division. And tell me if you agree, Marcus, I think it's the best division in all of the national football league. Yeah, I've been having this discussion with a few people throughout the off season, as we are always looking for things to discuss in the dog days of July. But I think certainly, you know, it doesn't have the floor that some other divisions have, like the AFC West might be a little more top heavy arguably, but you know, I think the Raiders probably wouldn't be ranked higher than anybody would put the Bears for example.

And then, yeah, I mean, I agree, I think I think it is, it is the best overall division in, in, in the league. So I want to go through each team and what we're going to learn about these teams during training camp and how we're going to feel about them coming out of camp one way or the other. So why don't we begin with, uh, since you're on Vikings turf here, Marcus and not Packers turf will begin with the Minnesota Vikings. Uh, I think there's a quarterback situation that is worth discussing and I actually don't know your opinion on the Vikings decision to move on from Sam Darnold,

their decision not to sign Aaron Rogers and to hand over this Ferrari of a football team to JJ McCarthy. Yeah. I mean, it's,'s it's definitely if it were me, it would have been much more of a tough decision. I think then a lot of Vikings fans viewed it as certainly where it was like yeah, obviously it's gotta be JJ McCarthy. You know, I don't know if they knew for sure that they were going to hit as big of a Grand Slam and free agency as they did bring it in all these

guys in the offensive line duo duo you get a pair of like upgrades on the interior D line, you know, cornerbacks like it really you look back at the free agents and you're like, wait a minute, this is like arguably the best roster in the NFL now what what happened when did that happen? And it really started to be like it's it's kind of a risk to hand this over to J.J. McCarthy, who is, correct me if I'm wrong, 22 years old. Has he turned 23 yet?

He's 22 years old. He's a prospect that, I mean, let's be honest, coming out of college, like didn't have to really do too much. I think what they asked of him, he handled and there's reason to believe he can handle more at the NFL level, but he was in many ways there sort of Alex Smith at Michigan and that's fine. You can hope that he can be more than that at the next level, but he's never proved anything really at the NFL level, certainly. And then yeah, you have the opportunity to either, I guess at this point, Sam Darnold has probably shipped off

after you've signed all these free agents. But yeah, I think the Aaron Rodgers conversation would have been fairly fascinating for sure. I think it just puts more risk on the whole JJ McCarthy pick in my opinion, because yeah, he might just be okay and you feel like he played well enough that you're heading into the 2026 season like yeah we've got the hope for a franchise quarterback here but as we know these windows can disappear in a hurry

and you might not have a better opportunity to go for it so there there is the risk that you look back on this like yeah maybe we should have just given just given JJ another year, brought in Aaron Rodgers, who I think his floor outside of injury, given that he is friends with Kevin O'Connell, very good friends, apparently, they text like on a weekly basis. I think the floor of an Aaron Rodgers coming in here is higher than than a rookie JJ McCarthy. The ceiling is higher with JJ being younger and more athletic, but I think it was a very real conversation for me. I really understood it in either direction. It's just going to come down to their hope, their internal hope of JJ McCarthy. So yeah, I did understand

not going the Sam Darnold route after how things ended though. I think it just, you feel like that, that quarterback that is always at risk of seeing ghosts in the biggest moments. You're kind of afraid that that guy's going to come back. I understand not going that route. Where I would have really been interested to see what they would do is if Sam Darnold had said, yeah, I'll come back for 15 million dollars a year or something or whatever

But if I was Sam Darnold and I think that this is somewhat of what happened I'm not coming back unless you made me crazy money And also I don't really want to come back to a place where I know That if in the first quarter of week one, I struggle or whatever, the home opener week two, that I'm going to get boot off the field and the fans are going to be screaming for JJ McCarthy. So there's a lot of different dynamics at play here with Aaron Rodgers for me. I mean, you mentioned the higher floor, but the lower ceiling. I totally agree with that, that with Aaron Rodgers, can you really actually win a Super Bowl with this version of Aaron Rodgers?

I kind of doubt it I mean he went to the New York Jets that had a really good team and That team ends up torn to shreds by the time he's leaving and I think the Vikings are a little stronger Organizationally and their owners are not quite as insane as the owners of the Jets at the same time Even if we believe in all that stuff, the athleticism is pretty much gone. That made Aaron Rodgers one of the all time great quarterbacks was the playmaking ability. And if he's just going to throw from the pocket all the time and he doesn't like putting anybody in motion, he wants to run his plays and not

his coaches plays. And even when he had his guy there, Nate Hackett, it didn't really work. It's kind of hard to convince me that that would have been something that could result in them going all the way to a Super Bowl. Whereas with McCarthy, the skepticism, I think is very fair with the lack of actual football playing since, I mean, he hasn't even thrown a pass since December, 2023, which is crazy to think about. But at the same time, we look around the league and there are a lot of young quarterbacks who are winning in the NFL if they have strong enough rosters. And, you know, he's going into year two. It's not a rookie quarterback. It's somebody that got a ton of experience last year to understand what the National Football League is about and to learn Kevin

O'Connell's offense. And this will be his second full training camp. So it's not a completely new experience. And when you look around him, what else could they have done to support this guy? I mean, they've done so much and recent history in the NFC is a lot of quarterbacks being propped up by their rosters. It's Brock Purdy, 2023. I mean, Purdy, I like Purdy a lot more than some people do, but come on, like we know that that roster and that play caller and all those things are pushing him forward. And the same thing with Jalen Hurts.

I get so exhausted of the Jalen Hurts argument. Cause I'm like, what do you want him to do? What more exactly, oh, well, he's got a great roster and he won the super bowl with that roster. So you're going to log on and tell me he stinks. Like, what are we talking about here? But even with someone like Jalen Hurts, I think we all admit that if it was a mid roster, I don't think they would be winning the super bowl, like

maybe Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes could do with a mid roster. And so I think of JJ McCarthy of like, how good does he have to be to actually take this team to the top of the NFC North? And I don't think the answer is insane. I'll tell you exactly what I came up with. top of the NFC North. And I don't think the answer is insane. I'll tell you exactly what I came up with. I came up with PFF's 11th best quarterback is where JJ McCarthy has to be in order for this team to be a very serious contender.

So Sam Darnold, I mean pretty much. Well, but think about like, as you know, so you used to work for PFF. Like we know this, that there's several different ways you could get to 11th. You could get to the 11th best quarterback by having a bunch of big time throws like Sam Darnold, or you can get to the 11th by operating effectively with your office steady week to week. It's funny when you said Alex Smith, because I thought, well, what does Alex Smith do with this team? I mean,

with a team that was similarly this strong early analysis career, the guy went to an NFC championship game. So it's like, but there's that to me, though, that to me is the Aaron Rogers argument, though, is that can Aaron Rogers come in and be the 16th best quarterback in the league? I think on film last year, he gets too much hate for what Rogers did. He can still make really high end throws. I think the biggest conversation that had to be had there

was between O'Connell and Rogers and be like, hey, if you come here, are you gonna do the thing you did for Lafleur and let me call plays on first and second down? And if Rogers is gonna sign up for that, I think you could have gotten the 16th best quarterback in the league based on the film from Rogers last year and I do think the fact that he he moved much better in the last six seven weeks once he got more comfortable with the ankles so I don't we don't need to hang on the

Rogers thing forever but like the way I look at it is like I think you know pending you know taking health out of the equation I think the floor for Rogers in Minnesota is like QB 18. I think the floor for McCarthy is like QB 28. Like I really think his floor is pretty low. I like the ceiling too, but no, I think that that's true. Uh, where it's a little different for me is having seen him at practice and now practice isn't a perfect correlation to what it's like in the game. In the game, you actually get murdered by the other players as opposed to having the red jersey on. But what is so unique about McCarthy, other than the situation, I can't think of any other situation where a team won 14 games and then decided, you know what,

let's just go to our other quarterback Kansas city going to my homes from Alex Smith is maybe the closest comparison, but there's not too many times you actually see that is that his performances in practice looks so much different than he looked in college. So when, and this is a hard thing, cause there's only like a handful of us who have been at practice to try to explain like, well, the guy that we're working, like the information I'm working with a little different. So I kind of believe in this route more than maybe you would if you watched him just play Alabama or something or play in the national championship where all he had to do was hand off in order to raise a trophy. right? So it's a little different, but here's where I come down on like this decision

in general, which is believing in Kevin O'Connell's decision-making. Because I think that if O'Connell had truly wanted Aaron Rogers and he had gone to ownership and said, I just, I can't play McCarthy right now. He's not ready. I gotta go Aaron Rogers. That's our only chance to win. I think they would have done it and they would have brought the circus to town and then who knows what happens after that But he saw him for a year behind the scenes called him a franchise quarterback. He called him actually that franchise guy

I thought he was referring to your YouTube, but he actually was referring to that sound bite. Yes, exactly No, he said I mean and he meant it like Like he meant that he saw the signs of a franchise quarterback. So to me it's why wait? Like if, if that's the truth, NFL quarterbacks now are more prepared than ever coming out of college. We see this all the time and with a year under his belt, like off you go. But I think that it does kind of come down to that question of how good you have to be. And also, and this is where I'd really like your thoughts here, is not just how good you have to be, but how much do you have to do is the question. Because with Kevin O'Connell's offense, the quarterback is asked to do a lot. And he is asked to be the center

of the offense. Can you win without doing that? Can you win by paring it down a little bit? Or do you think you should just put pedal to the metal and be like, look, if some weeks go bad for us because you've got to learn, then some weeks go bad for us, but it will be better in the long run. Yeah, I think that's just the tough question that they're going to have to sort through for sure. I think bringing in a veteran center like Ryan Kelly, or at least making sure you have a veteran center is something a lot of teams like to do for young quarterbacks. I think that can help. And I don't know if they've talked about like who's handling protections and stuff. That's often like where my mind goes in terms of like

taking stuff off the plate of the of the quarterback. So we'll see where that goes. But the nice thing is to, like they have, they have the ability to hopefully run the ball better than they have for a long, long time too. So just simplify the reads with play action if, if he's not quite ready. And I think, yeah, you could still potentially get a really efficient offense, even if you are asking him to run more of a dumbed down version of KLCs offense, if in a worst case scenario. Yeah, I think it's going to be a slow build would be my guess. Uh, but clearly the number one storyline for the Vikings,

it's one of the top storylines in the entire NFL throughout this training camp is just how's JJ looking. That's going to be a section. I'm sure of the podcast every single day, every day. Yeah. Now I can't wait for that. I am super pumped for that because so many years Marcus was kind of like trade. Oh training camps beginning Kirk still the quarterback No, it's still Kirk. You can only go great great clips cut today before Before we I was also a great clips guy

But before we you know move on from the Vikings in some of your thoughts about the rest of the roster I mean you mentioned that you think it's one of the best rosters in the entire NFL, but if we're doing camp questions that could impact the season, what is your biggest question about this Vikings team aside from the quarterback? Man. Um, I mean, the easy answer is health. Uh, they, they did honestly stack this team up with some injury prone talent. I think both running backs have questions at injury. Um, the two offensive linemen they signed have injury questions. Uh, they bring in,

or they, they still have Blake Cashman on the roster who I love Blake. He's one of my favorite players in the league, Eden, Prairie legend, all that. But, uh, he is a guy that gets banged up. There are pockets on this team that you're just worried that in classic Minnesota sports fashion, that these guys aren't going to be there when you need them at the right time. So that that is honestly, I think every position has, I mean, we'd have to go through the whole thing, but probably top, at least top 15 at every position group for the most part. Like, that's that's pretty insane.

I think I think the interior of the offensive line is still going to be a question for me. I love the moves they made. I think Donovan Jackson was a touch rich for me with the 24th pick. I think he's a nice player. I think anytime you're talking about any rookie having this incredible floor, you have to be careful with that because rookies, oftentimes their floor is surprisingly low. And I saw Jackson is more of a second round guy that yeah, theoretically has a nice floor. But there's definitely a world where he is not an NFL starting

caliber left guard. I think Ryan Kelly's had it like I said, he's had a hard time staying healthy. And he's regressed because of those injuries racking up. And Will Fries looked awesome last year. I think he's going to be really good, but it's a different system. It's coming off a broken leg, right? Broken leg. But yeah, I think the interior of the offensive line

would still be the one spot where I would be more hesitant from a talent evaluation perspective. Compound fracture, I think maybe, which sounds horrible. The Donovan Jackson conversation is interesting to me because I've had, you know, fans say, like, how will you evaluate Donovan Jackson in practice? It's like, good question, because on the sideline, I mean, preseason, I don't think he's going to play a ton, maybe a couple series. So on the sideline, I think you're just-

I don't like that, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. He probably should. He probably should. He probably should play a little bit more, but you know, O'Connell is just not into playing rookies a lot. I actually think it'll be an indicator. If they love what they see in practice, they won't play him a lot.

If they don't love what they see, with Ed Ingram showed us this, if they don't love what they see, then they will play him in preseason and then we'll kind of know, like, okay, they think he needs a lot more work, especially if they have their joint practices and then have him practice. So I think it's a bunch of little hints. It's really hard to stand on a sideline and evaluate an offensive guard because you don't know the assignments, but you also don't get a second look at it. You don't really know what happens sometimes.

It's so quick. A lot of it is just body language of like, does he look like he's out there as one of the guys? Does it look like he's kind of over his head a little bit? Does it look like the offensive line coach is talking to him and the assistant all the time after every play? Are they mixing in Blake Brandle on some reps there to kind of send a message to him? Like a lot of those things are going to determine it. And I do agree with you that saying someone has a high floor is hard to do with rookies because some guys, I thought Wyatt Davis was going to be great, man. I was like, Wyatt Davis is great. And then just

never even played for the Minnesota Vikings. So you never really do know. But the one thing, two things about Jackson I really like, number one is what's to his left and his right. I mean, Christian Derrissa and Ryan Kelly, if they're both good to go, that's a lot of talent and a lot of experience that you're not going to be on an island there. You're going to get a lot of assistance from those two guys. You're going to be in the right place. And I do think that the players intelligence really helps. I think his experience at tackle probably really helped because he

faced some athletes that he would not have in college very often. And he comes across as kind of a more mature type of player coming into the NFL than you see a lot of times. So I could see why that argument would get made. Like I agree with you fundamentally, but then I kind of also want to say, but he kind of does like for, yeah, for a rookie. But I think, I think you've identified an area where like I've been very impressed by all right, finally, right? They put all this investment and now Kenny Clark has to play against someone who's good. Um, but maybe, right? Only, maybe only if fries is a hundred percent, only if Kelly stays healthy,

only if Jackson steps up. It's a big, big question. The other one I would say is the cornerback group that they didn't add anything more to it. So it's black men, it's Isaiah Rogers and behind them it's Jeff Okuda. So there's, there's definitely question marks there before we move on. Uh, in your projections, uh, how many wins do you have for the Vikings this year? How far do you have them going? Like how good do you think this team is going to be? I am genuinely optimistic for sure. I do think the McCarthy thing is going to work out just based on everything we've talked about and KLC being what he is. But they are such a

unique team in this very specific question because it just comes down to him. It literally just comes down to him. So I think they're either I hate to be the one that's like, they're either going to do this or they're either going to do that. But I really think this is a team that's like, yeah, this is either a team that's closer to where they were last year, 13, 12, 13 wins.

Or, yeah, they're going through some learning curves and McCarthy just isn't quite ready yet and maybe they do kind of regret not going with with a Rogers or a Darnold for another year. And this is a six win team. I don't think this is a team that's going to be, you know, picking inside the top seven or eight picks of the draft next year. There's just too much to work with here. But I think that's my final answer. Either, either seven wins or 12 wins, no in between. Okay. I have them at 11 and that's after

mini camp and we'll see how I feel after training camp and how McCarthy does here because we've only seen a mini camp and he looked good in mini camp, but that's no contact or anything else. Now you are, now you're the guy. Now you're QB one. It's a, it's a big step forward for him. Let's talk Green Bay Packers. I think the, the narrative around, I'm not a big fan of that word, but the main point of discussion around the Green Bay Packers this off season is, eh, I think that's a, the best way to describe it. It just, it's the same,

same football team as last year. Aaron Banks is kind of just a guy, but now he's just an expensive guy. The offensive line should be okay. The defensive line should be okay. The quarterback should be okay. And the running back is pretty good. The wide receivers might be a tad better, but there's, there's nothing that wows you about the Green Bay Packers, so where I go back and forth is, well, they were a pretty good team without any wow, but the other teams in the NFC North last year were better than them and the other teams took steps

forward. Is that how you feel about the Packers? So I think. I think with the Packers, it is definitely all about, okay, they were 11 and 0 against non-playoff teams and 0 and 6 against playoff teams. That kind of sums up everything you just said. But if you do look back at what happened last year, in many ways, this team should be a lot better because without just getting into the roster changes, Jordan love goes down week one,

misses four weeks and anybody that watched him play for the first three months of his return, he could not move like he once did. And that impacted his play extension ability, which is a huge part of what he does, but even more so, I think those little subtle movements that he does in the pocket that make him so special where he's got the rush coming in, but he just kind of calmly drifts back off his back foot, makes the throw. Those weren't in his bag either. He was, he was just not able to play like Jordan love.

Once you get more towards the end of the season, you saw that guy come back. And that's when the Packers were at their best and starting to kind of of get into the high-end playoff narrative by season's end. They really were and they ended up finishing the year like top 10 in offensive metrics and all that stuff, despite a really rough start to their season. And then you also have to be realistic about how their season ended. Jordan Love tweaked his knee in that game against the Bears game. They pulled him out at halftime. You have Christian Watson goes down week 17 when he was actually playing really good football. You get to that playoff game. They go down multiple starting offensive linemen. They're out there trying to block Jalen Carter with someone called Travis Glover, who was a sixth round pick, your classic sort of Georgia State developmental tackle prospect that gets drafted because he has

long arms. He had to start at guard against Jaylen Carter in the playoff game against the Eagles, a game where Jayden Reed also got hurt, Romeo Dobbs left with a concussion. So Jordan Love is out there with no time to throw, to nobody to throw too. He is literally targeting Dontavion Wicks, who led the league in drop rate last year, Bo Melton and Malik Heath. That's how the season ended. So that's going to be the what people remember is them just losing another game to the Eagles. You can also make an argument that team played the Eagles better than anybody in the entire playoffs without anybody. So

getting all these guys back healthy, adding a Matthew Golden, who I think is very Stefan Diggs esque in terms of his talent, route running, tough catches, size is similar. I was a massive Matthew Golden fan to get him where they did in the draft. I'm not saying he's Justin Jefferson, but it reminds me a little bit of when the Vikings did get him in the 20s and it was like, why was that guy there? So that's huge. The biggest thing with the Packers is the D-line's got to play better. They have four first round picks on the D-line and they didn't play like it last year. They fired their edge coach and they just got to get better play out of those guys. They decided not to invest in that group. They believe in the players they have. So that's a huge thing with the defense.

But yeah, I think it's more of just assessing what happened last year and realizing it was closer to a worst case scenario for the Packers last year and they still were a damn good football team. Yeah. The Jordan Love thing, it did make a huge difference for his health. When they played the Vikings, he came back probably a week too early to play the Vikings and it was not moving the same way and one area that I would give Jordan Love a ton of credit is the guy doesn't take sacks and I think

that his pocket movement is a massive part of that. So even if he still was not taking a lot of sacks, he was not able to extend plays in the same way. I'd like to see him run more often if I was offering some advice to him, but he couldn't do that last year anyway. There's also the bigger picture though of you have two years of Jordan love. The two years kind of look similar to each other where there's extremely exciting games and exciting moments and great games. And then there's inconsistency. And I think that most quarterbacks, this goes for Sam Darnold as well, who rely

on pushing the football down the field, rely on deep shots. This was Eli Manning once upon a time. And when people look up Eli Manning stats, they don't love them because it's like, well, that guy was pushing the ball down the field all the time and he made mistakes because of it. And I think that that's a little bit of Jordan love. And I wonder about like the training wheels on him as well, because it seemed like they tried to take the training wheels off the, Hey, we're going to throw screens or we're going to push it down the field. But the rest of the offense was not really ready for that.

The receivers certainly weren't. And I got Marcus, I got to laugh all last year because the whole, we don't need a wide receiver one. We got 14 wide receiver twos and it's like, Oh really? I didn't know that you could still do that without Aaron Rodgers, uh, even though Rodgers of course had lots of wide receiver, one action in his career. So I guess I'm, I'm not fully sure that I know exactly what Jordan love is until he plays the

full season next year with several years of starting under his belt and has enough weapons and offensive line play to really utilize everything Matt LaFleur has there and play off of the very strong run game that they have. Still, I end up with as I try to like, where do I place this team? Where do I kind of put them roster wise? I don't know how I put them ahead of the lions. I don't know how I put them ahead of the Vikings, which leaves you where, like are the Packers in danger of becoming like the Vikings under Zimmer where it was kind of like this, it's always going to be a good team. You're never going to go into a year saying, Oh, well they're going to stink, but you're also not going to go into a year where they're super bowl favorites.

Yeah. I think with Jordan love, I really do think, I know this is where I come off as a Homer, but I really do believe that you, in many ways you throw out last year just because of the injuries. There are even games where he would, he would start the half and then the knee would kind of flare up and he would come out for the second half and we get a second half of Malik Willis. There was a couple of games like that. It's just like everything that went down last year and what was supposed to be a

big evaluation year for Jordan Love. It's just, it's really hard to take anything meaningful from that. This year is going to be, I'm not saying he is a great quarterback for sure, heading into next year, but I think you should take the same approach that you did heading into last season where it's like, okay, year one looked pretty dang funny. It ended way better than it started for sure. I think you take the approach of like,

let's see what happens this year. And I do think the Packers best route to get out of that purgatory is yeah, for Jordan Love to be more of a top 10 quarterback, which I still think is in there. I do, he's a little over-aggressive at times. I don't know that he's ever gonna be quite as consistent enough to be like a tier one elite guy,

but can he be like a Herbert or a Stafford, for example? I think that's still in play for him. And if that's who he can be, that would, I think, be the best quarterback in this division. And historically, the best quarterback in the division wins it more often than not. So that's gonna be your best hope,

but I totally agree with you that this team runs the risk of if love is just going to be kind of a streaky guy and QB 16. Yeah. How, what, how, what are they going to do to be a team like the Eagles that can win a Superbowl with a quarterback that in my opinion is in that third tier of quarterbacks? I know people hate me for that, but that's how I view Jalen Hurts. They got to draft better, dude. They have not drafted well in the first round. This is not a team that attracts free agents. That is very clear. They can't be towards the bottom of the league in first round hit rate like that. So putting the pressure on Brian Gudekunst there, that is a huge part of this. Also, it's hard to say, don't mean to be a homer when you're wearing a go pack, go.

Hey, I wasn't going to do it. But I don't know if you saw Zach Tom just signed maybe one of the most team friendly contracts in the league. Four years, 88 million makes up for the Aaron Banks deal a little bit. Maybe just take like 7 million from banks and just imagine it's going to Zach Tom and things make a lot more sense. He's an underrated player. I think he is one of the best at his position.

Good deal for them. So what's the camp question? What is the roster? Is it the secondary without Jair Alexander? Who whom exactly will line up across from Justin Jefferson? Is it going to be quite Walker Walker? Like it was in the 2022 that I still see that clip show up sometimes where way Walker was one-on-one on an island with Justin Jefferson So I don't think that's the plan

It was funny that Vikings fans and Packers fans got to share a year of the adonatel Joe Barry experience Which was like the exact defense and my lord. So yeah, I think it's that nickel corner spot and kind of what their plan is for how these guys are going to get used. I think they're going to have a couple different packages that they'll play situationally. But they're a team, their whole secondary outside of Carrington Valentine who isn't even listed as a starter right now, but I think he's he's the best true outside corner. Nate Hobbs can play both. He's their best corner who they signed in free agency. But right now with how they're listing it

on our lads, which does a pretty good job of tracking, you know, practice and that kind of stuff and who's getting the reps. They have Nate Hobbs, Keisha Nixon and Javon Bullard all starting at cornerback and those are all at their best nickel corners. So it's going to be very interesting kind of what their plan is there, especially with that nickel spot, whether it's Nixon inside with Valentine outside or Bullard playing the nickel or another rookie safety they like last year in Evan Williams playing some of that nickel spot. It's going to be very fascinating. My thing with the secondary is I, I don't think it's going to be a good secondary.

I think you're hoping that they can just communicate well and have a high floor ish be the 20th best secondary in the league with a really good safety on the backend and Xavier McKinney, uh, don't bust coverages and just the pass rush has to play better. They have to be able to win with four better than they did last year. That was what they wanted to do. They were still bottom 10 in blitz rate last year that they want to be able to win with four and they weren't able to do it. That is exactly what has to happen. So in many ways it's like the question roster wise and can't battle yes is with the corner. But the biggest question for the results on the defenses is the

D line playing up to their draft status. Right. And Rashawn Gary, I mean, two years ago looks like a superstar. Kenny Clark has drifted off a little bit and Lucas van Ness, I just I just haven't seen any signs of that guy being anything more than just like a rotational type of pass rusher roster filler type of guy with maybe some moments that you like. I think that they're, I don't know what you call it.

I guess the second, second level linebackers, like they've got, they've got linebackers. They've got some, some playmakers there. Edren Cooper was very, very impressive last year. And I also think that Jeff Haffley did a lot better of a job. I mean, that could have been you or me doing a better job, I think than Joe Barry, but he did a much better job of especially playing against the Vikings of throwing some things at them that they didn't see what was coming. Some, I saw even Josh Mattelis the other day,

somebody put out a video of a coverage and Josh Mattelis was like, oh, they stole that from us. They stole that from Brian Flores. So there's there's creativity at least there. But I think the blitz rate may have to go up. But I will be interested to see what happens in the corner position. When they did blitz, they were highly effective, but they want to be more like, you know, that's your change up type of deal. And it like, you know, that's your change

up type of deal. And it's, you know, it's a Tarek Scoobal change up where you're striking out every single time you try to pick it up. You know, the more you blitz, the more film you're putting on what you like to do, the offenses are more prepared for the blitz, your efficiency with it's going to go down. So I think they want to live in that formula where they're most of the time they're rushing with four, but when they do heat you up, you're gonna die because Edren Cooper is a maniac as a blitzer. Yeah. And yeah, that linebacker group is much, much improved based on where I viewed heading in the last year for sure.

And even Quay Walker, who I'm still disgusted thinking that we spent a first round pick on him, but eventually the idea was eventually he's gonna slowly get better and be an okay player. He has gotten incrementally better every season. So year four, hopefully he can be an even better version of Koi Walker. All right. Let's go over to the Detroit lions here. And we're all so familiar with their roster and how talented it is top to bottom. And they've had some injuries here to start training camp.

But even with that, they have a completely stacked roster. How do we even go about talking about a camp storyline for the lions? Like they are what they are. And it's either your new offensive and defensive coordinators are going to work or they're not. And we're not going to know that during training camp. I do enjoy watching preseason games on social media to see people trying to say certain things are going to go one way or the other. That's a high entertainment because we're desperate for football. But yes, I don't even like the only question to me is, is that team under Dan Campbell, did they practice so hard? Did they play so hard over the years that they're just going to keep getting injured? But aside from that, I got nothing. I got nothing that I can take from the Detroit Lions during a training camp and say like, oh, this is going to determine X, Y, or Z. I saw a tweet today that was talking about how a clip of James

and Williams running a route was proof that he is like improved his route running or so. I'm like, guys, you guys got nothing. You guys got nothing. You're either gonna win or you're not. And it's time for them. And I really think the only thing for them that in training camp, whatever, like let's just see how the pressure, because this feels like, I don't know if it's their last dance, but it feels like you don't have many shots left

where you go into a season and people can argue that you have the best roster and a quarterback who's still in his prime. And is that good? Yeah, I definitely do look at the interior of the offensive line though. And that's true, that's true, that's true. Pairing that with a Jared Goff who doesn't handle interior pressure well at all, he is probably the biggest, you know, most polarizing quarterback in terms of when he's protected, when he's not protected. And we've seen some moments in Detroit where the pressure gets in and

he has some ugly moments. But especially going back to the Rams, it was really ugly at times. Yeah, they've got a lot of shake up in that group. They're all pro center Frank Rag now, Chan has some legend. He retires. And they also lost Kevin Zeitler in free agency who just at 35 years old had another spectacular season at guard for them. So they're leaning on Christian Mahogany, a six round pick last year, who's a talented player, fell in the draft because of injury concerns. And then Tate Ratledge goes in the second round.

He's going to move in and play center. goes in the second round, he's going to move in and play center. So okay. And then Graham Glasgow goes from he's your weakest link. And he was at times a weak link for them. If you were going to beat that line when they were healthy, it was to go through Graham Glasgow, and he's had some ugly moments. He now is on paper, your best guard. Taylor Decker has had some injuries. He turns 31 this year, or like, when I think of the Detroit Lions, I think of that offensive line before everything else. And now no Ben Johnson.

Things are shaky. They're on a thin foundation. That's for sure. No, that's a great point. The offensive line. And when you go from having in this league, the way it is right now with so many blitzes and stunts and twists and deceptions and all sorts of things like that, that centers need to work their way through. I think that's one of the biggest reasons the Vikings paid for Ryan Kelly is like, get somebody who can work their way through this mentally and read defenses and understand how to pass guys off and how to identify stuff.

And now you're saying to a rookie from a second round, OK, how about you just do all that? Oh, by the way, you didn't even play center last year for Georgia. And now you got to figure out the complexities of that. The drop off potential from Frank Regnau, the cream of the crop, the best of the best. And I think that we gave a lot of credit to Ben Johnson and Jared Goff and Jameer Gibbs for working their way through what Brian Flores threw at them. We probably didn't give enough to Frank Regnau, who is the head of the snake of that entire operation. So how that battle ends up playing out and how they walk out of training camp with that offensive line,

are they jelled and they're feeling good? Or are they really, really nervous? Because you're right. I mean, it's not talked about enough with Jared Goff that when they get rid of him in LA, they were coming off their worst offensive line year under Sean McVay. There's a pretty clear connection between that and Jared Goff. So that's a good point. Still, I look at the weapons, still I look at the experience of Goff. I think he's a better quarterback than he was five years ago, six years ago with the Los Angeles Rams. And I also think that that defense is now with Aiden Hutchinson coming back and them getting healthy and then improving their secondary. I think

DJ Reed's a better player than Carlton Davis. They saw Amique Robinson really like step up last year specifically against the Vikings. I actually think that maybe they could be better than they were under Aaron Glenn at times where I thought Aaron Glenn was kind of a straightforward Man-to-man type of defense. I think they could be better there So I agree that there's this one weakness and that's the camp storyline that I was saying, you know I don't know how many there are But also like what's the ceiling for this defense of Detroit which we haven't discussed a whole lot over the offseason was so much focus on Ben Johnson leaving

Yeah I mean the crazy thing about Detroit is how they're able to stop the run. Like they have back to back years been at worst second in run defense, but now they add Tylek Williams in the first round of the draft. They continue to pay these linebackers. They gave Derek Barnes an extension who's like their LB two and a half. They rotate these linebackers kind of like a good D line would rotate just to keep guys fresh so they can just fly around and play like maniacs. And then yeah, they they get you to third down and they blitz you and Aiden Hutchinson is a huge problem. They have press man corners that it's like, well, you don't have to cover for that long because we're going

to blitz just make sure you're in a guy's hip pocket for two and a half, three seconds, and you're good. And they've got three guys that can do that. So, yeah, the best safety duo in the league. It's a nasty defense, man. And yeah, if the offense takes a step back, yeah, maybe the defense being more of that championship caliber defense would be what can help set them over the edge because we all saw Washington put up 45 against an injured defense last year year and it was too much for them to handle. All right, so give me this. I didn't ask you after the Packers analysis, but I'll ask you now anyway, Packers and Lions,

where do you have them? Where do you have them finishing? How many wins? So I think the Packers are the highest floor team in this division. I think that because they just don't. Honestly, I don't think the Packers have as many questions. I'm I actually disagree with you a little bit. I think Detroit has a lot of questions with the brain drain and the interior

offensive line. I think the opportunity for them to be much worse than they were last year is there. So I think the Packers are like 9 to 11 wins is kind of the where I see them. I don't think they're going to be worse than nine. I don't know for sure that they can be this great powerhouse team. You'd need to hit a lot of green lights for that to happen. Detroit. I haven't even thought about this yet. I'm like where I want to predict Detroit to go. They still terrified the crap out of me. That's for sure.

But I kind of have a bad feeling. I kind of a bad feeling about Detroit that they're more of a eight or a nine win team this year. But I don't know. I don't know if I'm prepared to put this out there, man. They're a tough one to predict in my opinion. It's a little bit of like forest in the trees. I mean, the trees would be, hey, this interior offensive line,

which which I get and like spent so many years of my life talking about interior offensive line. The same time, the Vikings had a pretty messy interior online and won 14 games last year. It's not that you can't overcome that. And the rest of the roster to me is so stacked that unless John Morton, not Johnny Morton, doesn't know what he's doing at all. There's just, there's a lot, there's a lot. I mean, Gibbs, he was the third best running

back in the entire league. Jamison Williams is a thousand yard player last year. Sam Laporta is top of his game. I mean, there's just a lot that they, I don't think that they're a team that unless it gets crazy injured again, can fall below that line of demarcation there. They're like nine win, like fall a hundred. But I will say that I did witness up close a 2018 Vikings team that changed offensive coordinators and things were never really right again and had a lot of drama and a lot of injuries, interior line problems, and everything just kind of went wrong for them. And it happened.

It does. And that team had been competitive and had gone to the NFC championship game the year before and it was, we thought, kind of too big to fail with the roster, but it does happen sometimes and I could, I could see it with a team like Detroit. There's one other, before we move on from them, there's one other underrated question mark for them that I don't think a lot of people are going to bring up, but David Montgomery had a knee injury at the end of the year last year. Everyone was like, Oh, he's going to be back for the playoffs.

Don't worry about it. I'm like, I don't know about that. Most people said he was going to have to shut it down for the year. And then he tries to play through it. Didn't go well. They had to shut him down. He's 28 years old. He is a very underrated part of what they do

because he keeps them, you know, on script. He keeps things second and four, third and two, which is where you get to see the play calls and Goff not having to be a superhero on third and long. If David Montgomery can't get back to his old self, which I think is actually a very legitimate question given his age and coming off a knee injury, a guy that has been banged up at times throughout his career. You know, he's he's very much flirting with that like line of steep fall off for these running backs. They don't have another guy, honestly, that like

can do like Craig Reynolds isn't really doing that for them. They just don't have that guy. I think Jameer Gibbs is super talented, but it is absolutely a 1A1B setup that they need both those guys to be able to do that. So if you're also having interior offensive line problems and that happens, like you could really lose the script pretty quickly with the offense. So that's another thing. It's just really lose the script pretty quickly with the offense. So that's another thing. It's just like kind of does start to stack up. They also love David Montgomery.

So if he's banged up and not 100 percent, it feels like they'll still just do it anyway, right, as they are kind of what happened last year. Right. They're kind of obsessed with David Montgomery and which I think what he brings to the offense is good, but I don't think that he's somebody you should keep playing through it when he's not effective. And every time he was in the game last year against the Vikings was like, okay, well that's, that's better for you that it's not, um, Jameer Gibbs. I'm just, I think bigger picture forest and trees forest is you only get so many shots at this with, with a roster and then things go wrong and then

you lose guys and you get expensive and they're getting very, very expensive. And there is it this year? Is it next year? Maybe one or two shots left with this group before things start to come apart. And when Dan Campbell said like, Hey, that might be our only chance of getting within that close. He might've been right because that's just kind of how the NFL works when you don't have Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes

or Lamar Jackson. And I guess I'm curious if all of that, because the last two years, what the Lions have had was, oh my gosh, us are actually good? And then last year was, we're so good, look at us. We're gonna win the Super Bowl through the entire season. But what if they start to and for I go we haven't seen that from this unit over the last two years where they've really gone through

something like that and had to work their way through it. So do they just come apart or do they find a way through that? That's it. That's all the NFC teams that matter. So good day. No, I'm just kidding. The we can do we can join the Bears fans, man. Poor Bears class pans and laugh at the Bears winning another off season. If you like. I was, I think, a Caleb Williams skeptic when he was coming out in the draft, which I'm not trying to be like that dude who's I told you about Caleb Williams. But my issue was that when I keep hearing the word generational,

it almost sounds like, oh, this guy's perfect. It will just instantly be the best quarterback in the league and you don't have to worry about it. And when analysts were picking the Bears over the Vikings last year in the standings, like, excuse me, like this guy's never played before and was horrible under pressure at USC and shockingly horrible under pressure again in the NFL. They've got the right guy as their coach, or at least the guy I would have picked for him. They improve the offensive line significantly. That would have been a choice of mine as well. Uh, they've, they drafted another receiver. They drafted another weapon at tight end, which I wasn't so impressed by, but you know, another weapon for your quarterback is fine. It's a mediocre defense. Is it going to be another year where

everyone's like, this is the year the Bears take the big step? And then they end up with like eight wins. That's kind of how I'm feeling about them. Yeah, no, you absolutely need Caleb to play better because this I do. Like, I honestly come back to this defense and the fact that they they overdid it with the offensive weapons, in my opinion, they needed pass rush help and they did not get it. Nobody is afraid of the Chicago Bears defense. I'm sorry. Like I look forward to the games against the Bears. It's like, great.

Jordan loves going to have all day to sit back there and pick this team apart and they did essentially nothing to improve that. Okay, Grady Jarrett at 33 years old is not gonna be what Bears fans think he is getting just because you pay a guy $14 million doesn't mean he's a $14 million pass rusher. Atlanta, who is desperate for pass rush help released him. So there you go. Dioding Bo is a fine player. You know, he's like, you should be

like the third or fourth guy on your D line that moves around and does some fun stuff. But like you're counting on him to be a number two or for Javon Dexter to take a massive leap in year three. Montez sweat wasn't that great last year. It's like, okay, I think the offense will be better. I think this team will be a little better than last year. But yeah, people are starting to really hype this team up again, but

There's a lot of pressure on that offense that now has Caleb who looked overwhelmed last year. I Mean that I'm not trying to be super over negative But like they bring in Luther Burden whose falls to the second round because apparently he's a diva. How are you gonna get him the football? What is the point of drafting Luther Burden who my high end pro comp on what type of player he is, is DJ Moore. It's like the, I want DJ Moore,

we have DJ Moore at home, except it's flipped where you want the crappy thing when you already have the good thing at home. Not that Luther Burden's crappy, but that just didn't really make sense to me. I thought at times Caleb looked overwhelmed coming out there like, okay, this play I got to get Keenan the ball. Then I got to get Rome the ball. Then I got to get DJ the ball.

Okay, I got Cole Comet. And then also I don't really know how to run the offense. So it was just like, why are we throwing six weapons at him? I think there is a there is a thing, a such thing as too many mouths to feed, especially for a young quarterback. So I did not love their offseason, even some of their offensive line additions were a little overrated. Jonah Jackson, he is not this savior. Detroit fans voted him into the Pro Bowl a couple of years ago, because Detroit fans are psychopaths. And I mean that as a compliment to all the Lions fans watching. Joe Tooney was a great addition.

I have no negative comments about that. And then Drew Dahlman was a wide zone run blocking specialist. He's great at it, but he's in many ways similar to like Brad Berry in Minnesota, where like, okay, but he's undersized. He's not that great of a pass blocker and that's kind of what you needed here. So yeah, I think their off season got quite overrated. I didn't love their draft and it's, it puts way too much pressure on Caleb. I do still believe in him as the prospect he was coming out. I, I, I am a little worried about some of the stuff we saw as a rookie, but like, it's, it is similar to

the Minnesota thing where it's going to come down to Caleb and his development in year two, for sure. Yeah. I think my issue with the Caleb Williams thing was it's almost like we decide that in this happened with Trevor Lawrence, we decide someone is the next Andrew Luck. And if you say it enough, it doesn't make it true. And when you watch the last season at USC, and there's a lot of problems there that need to be fixed. And there's no doubt about the ceiling. There's no doubt about the arm talent, the playmaking,

what he did against the Vikings at Soldier Field was ridiculous. And then took a horrendous sack at the end of the game that he absolutely cannot take. And then the Vikings end up winning. And that was kind of the definition of his season last year. I thought also what we did not see is resilience. What we did not see is a confidence that can't be broken or a leadership element where you're like, this is the dude. That's not him. It's just not him. It wasn't him at USC.

It's not him in Chicago. I think if you support him with a lot of different things and a lot of different veteran leaders, then that could be okay. But when DJ Moore just like walked off the field last year out of frustration, I know he said he's had an injury or something, but I've never seen that in the middle of a play. A guy just goes to the sideline. I think that there was a lot of signs that some of the veteran players maybe didn't have his back last year.

And if they get into trouble early and they don't have his back again, I think you're going to be in a really tough spot. To me, it's a middling team. I agree with you on Dalman, probably one of the most overrated signings that was out there this year. And I started laughing when they drafted a tight end. I was like, don't you have a tight end? That's fine. What I said was enjoy your 10.6 yards per catch. Like every other tight end, it doesn't, there's so few tight ends. One of them is in a picture behind you, George Kittle, but there's so few tight ends that move the needle. And like, what difference does it make if it's this guy or someone you just signed in free agency, you got to be

really special. So to not improve the defense and instead just get another tight end. That's just like your other tight end. I don't know. And of course everyone will go, no, this guy's different. And then he's not, and then he's not. That job in the NFL is unless it's Brock Bowers, I suppose, but it's still like 10.5 yards per catch every single one of you. And I just don't see them as being prolific offensively. And the other part too is let me get a shirt like running backs are a big deal still as far as it goes. And they don't have one that's talented. Deandre Swift has

ripped up the Vikings a few times, but he's not great. And who else? Yep. They're really not good there. And you're coming from Jameer Gibbs, who's amazing there. Yeah, I totally, totally agree. They should have added some running back. I just don't understand Ben Johnson's like you would think coming off so many coaches like they want to change the thing that ended them the year before.

If you're Ben Johnson, don't you want to be like, yeah, I don't want to lose games where we're giving up 45 points again. That kind of sucked. And then he comes to Chicago and just basically ignores all the existing players. Feels like he kind of got the like, Oh, I have roster control. Ooh, look at all these fun offensive weapons, killing it at the college level. And then it's like, Oh shoot, we do already already have Roma Dunze and DJ Moore and Cole Comet. Like, yeah. And and they draft another tackle who's like this kind of let's just say he's

like the Detroit Lions type, the frisky white dude, you know, like he goes and gets that when, wait, you already have a left tackle. That's like not bad. And Braxton Jones, like the odds of Ozzie, Trappillo being better than him. Like I just, I just don't understand the approach. Um, and yeah, it's gonna, it's gonna hurt. I think not having much of a defense. Just feels to me like eight and nine. And then they say, well, actually next off season is when we really improve.

And until proven otherwise, that's just what I'm going to think of the Chicago Bears. Um, okay, let me, uh, before we completely wrap up here, it's been a great conversation. And again, that franchise guy on YouTube, one of the absolute best, Marcus Whitman, what do you got for your super bowl? I mean, I'm pumped, man, training camp starting, let's go, let's get it on paper. I think last year I had the Texans and Cowboys or something in the Super Bowl, and that was really stupid. So there's no... Hey, I had the Jets, so... Oh, oh. That's worse. That's worse. Way worse. Yeah. You don't want my... At least I could argue that the Cowboys

play is gonna hurt. You don't want my Super Bowl pick. No. Let's hear it anyway. I've had a really bad record of my preseason Super Bowl pick is horrible, but I have I think been three for three. No, I picked the bills to win Super Bowl last year, but my playoff predictions haven't been bad. But yeah, my preseason predictions for Super Bowl have been horrible. Anyway, I actually have a nice feeling about the Texans this year. Wow. Spicy. I know. It is spicy.

Maybe I'm getting sucked into some tape that I've watched on CJ Stroud this year, but I think he is maybe already like the most underrated player in the league. Like nobody's talking about how good he still played last year. I think Nico Collins is a tier one wide receiver possibly like in the in the AJ Brown, CD Lamb, Justin Jefferson tier. It's not as good as JJ, but I think that defense the way they came on in the last like five, six weeks of the season,

it was finally like that's a D'Amico Ryan's defense that's going to murder you every week. And they gave the Chiefs hell. Like if not for some special teams mistakes, they would have beaten the Chiefs and might have been in the Super Bowl last year. So it's out there, but that's kind of where I'm leaning right now is Texans to be kind of the different Super Bowl pick. I don't think the Chiefs get back. I'll say that. I don't think it's the year the Chiefs get back. Or I think it is the year the Chiefs miss, I should say. NFC is so tough. Eagles would be the chalk pick. It's going to be tough for them to stay as healthy as they did last year. I'll say that, but their roster is insane. I mean, gun to my head, I would have to still go Eagles. I'll be honest, but that's boring. So how about the Tampa Bay Buccaneers?

Oh, really good off season. I think Baker played well last year. They got weapons all day. That would be my, if I can, if I'm allowed to pick someone other than the Eagles, I think that would probably be the team. I think my super chalk pick would be Bills and Eagles because I feel like eventually Josh Allen just plays one play better than Mahomes at a play

or just doesn't have to face him. Like even the odds of having to face the same guy are kind of ridiculous that that's just been a bad break for him. So I think that's going to happen for him. He's playing such great football. Now, um, if I, AFC is hard to go like off a little bit, like where do you even go? Because the best teams are just the best. They're so clearly the best. I don't know where else you're supposed to go. Then the Ravens. I guess if you wanted to be really cute, you could say, well, the Steelers and this, I don't buy it. I'm sorry. I just don't. So, uh, Bills and the off, a little bit off, uh, NFC pick, I'd stay in the West and I would go Rams because I mean, is it just me or has no one mentioned that Devante Adams Adams plays for them now? So Devontae Adams, he still played well last year. He was not totally washed.

Huka Nakua just does not get the respect. He is an absolute freak and that defensive line and defensive lines win in the playoffs. We saw that last year. It's exactly what you're talking about with the Texans. So maybe I'll go Bill's Rams for right now and maybe I'm giving the Rams too much credit last year's playoffs, but I don't know. I just can't with Sean McDermott anymore, man. I just can't do it anymore. I think I've picked them from it once with the playoff picks.

I think I've picked them to win the Super Bowl back to back years and I just I'm just done with them. It's it's just that Peyton Manning or Drew Brees like it's got to happen just once or it could be you know and it just doesn't so we will see again that franchise guy on YouTube make sure you check it out a Minnesotan wearing green and gold doesn't make sense but it is what it is Marcus Whitman thank you so much for your time as always my friend and we will definitely talk again soon. Thanks for having me, Matt.