Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - The Athletic's Alec Lewis grades the Vikings front office

Episode Date: November 23, 2023

Alec Lewis of The Athletic talks with Matthew Coller about the way Vikings general manager Kwesi Adofo-Mensah has handled building the roster for the 2023 season and beyond. What are we thinking about the team's timeline to be a Super Bowl contender and how will the QB decision play into that? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider, Matthew Collar, along with Alec Lewis of The Athletic Inside TCO Performance Center. Well, after everybody else has gone home, we were the first ones in. We'll be the last ones out. Actually, it's going to be a battle to see who leaves first to know who's the last one out. Because it's a football show. Right, it's a grinder's mentality here. And really, you're going to have to work hard.

I'm going to be here for a while. I'm going to be working, grinding and and making calls and transcribing so we'll see if you're up for it that's tough there's a lot of tape to be grinded i've got my jacket i might sleep here i mean you make the joke and yet mike zimmer i believe actually did have like a couch that turned into a bed that during the season he would just stay overnight he would grind the tape into the middle of the night sleepier so you know all right well you've become full football guy then here's what i want to talk about with you alec i think that you have a lot of interest in the way the front office has handled things as you should since you

cover the team professionally here's here's what i'll ask i'll ask the question that i think you would hate the most oh thanks the phrasing that you would hate the most the most difficult way to put it i know exactly what you're gonna say but go ahead okay well how would you grade the vikings front office is that what you expected uh you're gonna say i thought you're gonna say are they good or is it good or is it so that's pretty much what you ask what's interesting you bring this topic up and it obviously um i mean i it was an off-camera conversation that we had that probably sparked it and i just i was watching i will get to your answer your question i promise i'm not ducking you but i was watching uh the monday night football

game between the chiefs and the eagles and I'm just watching players move across the field and thinking like Trent McDuffie. Wow. That's an incredible draft pick Clyde, Clyde Edwards, Hilaire. I mean, there are these cornerbacks that I don't even know of linebackers that came out of nowhere. Trey Smith, the offensive lineman, great draft pick my homes. I think we know the answer there. And it's like, is Brett Beach, has he done a great job in the draft? Has he not? Is it fair to evaluate? So that's what got me thinking about it. And I asked you because I know you have a perspective that I thought would be interesting.

So how would I grade this Vikings front office? I mean, look, like if you look forward, I was doing this again this morning. If you look forward to the cap space they're going to have in 2024 and 2025, the draft capital that they have, and then the ability to kind of maneuver and shapeshift in whatever way they want, while they've also put a team on the field that has won more games than they've lost, which was something they talked about from the time they got here wanting to do, it's hard to grade them pretty bad.

I mean, we could get into the Lewis scenes and the Andrew and all that we will I'm sure over the next few minutes but um I mean I don't know how you could give them a terrible grade just considering they wanted to do a competitive rebuild and they've really gotten close to to I mean they've been competitive without question and and the rebuild you can have an opinion on and um I don't know it seems like they're in solid shape moving forward. Well, certainly I agree with you about the randomness of the draft. And if, look, if any of those receivers for the Chiefs were good and like could catch it when it came their way,

then they'd be a lot better football team. It's funny because I've seen people talking about, man, their expected points added is really far down. I'm like, what would it be if they caught it? And that applies to all the games. Because even against the Vikings, there were a couple catches in there. But you're looking at the receivers going, this is not a scary offense, despite having the best quarterback in the world and a great defense. And they got bit by the randomness in the draft bug.

And also the we had to pay our quarterback bug and had to trade away Tyree Kill, who was, you know, great. He's all right. Yep. And was basically a one man deep threat. And now they try to bring in Valdez Scantling. He's OK. Last year, they survive it. But even then, they couldn't bring back Juju Smith Schuster because they're pinching pennies. They took it to the very end with Chris Jones. It just sort of speaks to life in the NFL and how tricky it can be, even when you have the greatest quarterback on earth and how much you sometimes have to rely on that draft randomness. But I think with the Vikings, what we've seen play out is they set a goal. They set a path when Kweisi Adafomenta and

Kevin O'Connell were hired and they stayed to that path and I think that's really difficult to do like that might not get enough credit is even in the acquisition of Josh Dobbs their goal was can we get a guy who could play without getting a guy who really costs anything and the answer was yes which has kind of been the can we move on from Adam Thielen but draft someone else who could take his place and the answer been the can we move on from adam thielen but draft someone else who could take his place and the answer was yes can we move on from defensive players and find younger guys to develop and get brian flores to make the best out of them the answer is yes and what will ultimately judge this on is what happens next at the quarterback position what grade to give them

but which you didn't give a grade you just just said, like, you can't say that. You knew I wasn't going. Come on. You knew from that. Like, B plus? Like, I don't know. Well, I'm afraid. Alec Lewis, the athletics Vikings writer, says Kweisi Dofaminta is a B plus.

Then I'm going to be like, what the heck? I don't know. There's context that I need to offer it. Well, this group would never see anything on Twitter. You had to go. No, I will say that the interesting thing about what you said, I mean, it is, I used to think that, that Patrick Mahomes, I used to, cause I'm, I was, I lived in Kansas city. I went to Mizzou, cover the Kansas city Royals and the chiefs were very close to, I went to a lot of the. And I used to tell friends in Kansas City, like, why do you worry about these other things, these receivers?

And I used to just think that Patrick Mahomes could lift everything, which he comes very close to doing that. But I think the more I watch them play, it is you need the offensive line that can hold up for him, which it's a great offensive line. And you need skill players who can do the one thing they just really have to do. They don't even have to be that great at separating or running routes, just catch the football. And they haven't been able to do it. And so I guess I'll tie that back to what Kweisi and Adolfo Minza

and staff have done here. But they really have made another facet to what they've done is they've made a really serious effort to build the infrastructure offensively around that position that is going to shape so much of how we grade them and that I think they deserve credit for that I mean TJ Hawkinson you know going out and acquiring him last season to be able to help them last season but also help them in the future is a move that I mean it deserves a a lot of credit. And earlier this season, as TJ had a couple tough moments in tight window throws, it was easy. Even for me, you're reading,

you're seeing what people are saying. It's easy to knock them. But then as you watch them over the course of the season, watch them navigate injury, watch him run routes as a tight end that just I don't know how many guys in the league can do that. It's hard not to be impressed. And then you think about the tackles and you think about obviously drafting Jordan Addison. There's, there's a lot around the infrastructure of this position that will ultimately shape our analysis for probably a long time to come. How in your mind do you think that Kirk Cousins injury either clarified or complicated the situation at quarterback in the future? Because I could make an argument either way. I could say, look, I mean, once you have that injury,

even if science has made it a lot easier to come back from, you're still talking about an age, a price tag that I doubt is going to be wildly lower than it was before. In fact, because he was playing such great football, we didn't get to see if there was another side of the mountain that he fell off, right? If he had had a bad December and they missed the playoffs by a game, then we're going, ah, well, which, you know, we've seen before that had happened. And so he's playing so well that your last impression is, man, if you got that version all the time, like you're going places, but you can't guarantee that version all the time.

And Quacey even talked about at the combine, you were there for that. Yeah. How difficult it is to project a player into the future. He said two years out. How about a guy who's 36 coming off an Achilles injury? Yet at the same time, when you look at the foundation of the roster, you could see them getting talked into. Now, wait a minute.

This roster is pretty good. And more young players emerged than we actually thought we're going to and yada, yada, yada. So I can't decide whether it's made it easier or harder to decide because you weren't getting a discount before, but maybe you potentially could with the Achilles injury. I don't know. Yeah. And you said they could look at the roster. I also think they could look at their own situation. It'll be their third year in their positions for this team. And that could be like, well, if our third year, I mean, we can't take a step back in our third year. We're supposed to be moving forward. So it is, it's a really fascinating subject to discuss. I do think it, this is just me purely speculating. do think it it brings Kirk Cousins coming back

here a little more in play because of the price tag now you're exactly right in that the way he was playing and the market in general probably make it to where his price tag regardless is is going to be what what it is but I also think he had surgery here locally that was not something he had to do he does love living here he he had to do. He does love living here. He does want to be here. And it's another probably breaking point for him of if you really, really, really want to be here, if you really value this place, will you maybe take less than you would elsewhere? And the answer to that question may ultimately dictate it. I say that also knowing that this Vikings front office and even head coach Kevin O'Connell have been outspoken about their understanding of the value of the rookie quarterback contract.

And I also think Kevin O'Connell really sees his system as quarterback centric. So to draft a young guy is something that I wouldn't be surprised they really want to do at some point. It is it's a fascinating discussion that I mean, in our job, we have to have the answers. I just, I just don't see the clear path of any answer because the, there's so many puzzle pieces on the table, on the table to sort through it really. Well, it'd be really boring if there weren't, if we were like, they're doing great. Yep. Bye. Uh, but, uh, you know, when it, when it comes to the element of their contracts and what has been reported about their contracts, and I'm assuming that they're tied together, as was always the case, because I think the report came out when they hired Kweisi Adafo-Mensa and we just figured, well, they must be on

the same page because why would you do it differently? And they always did it the same with Zimmer and Spielman. Makes sense to have those two tied together with their futures. I did a story a few years back where I talked to somebody who is a pro personnel director and asked them just pretty simply a former former. So they weren't in the league anymore. And I asked them if they had 10 year guaranteed contracts for executives, how different would the league be? And it's a leading question because the answer is crazy different. Like they would have much longer plans and the development would be

there and they would be more patient with quarterbacks and we'd probably see a really different approach and this brings me to have you seen enough if let's say let's say mark and ziggy called you up they said look these articles in the athletic are unbelievable i see everybody retweet them the twitter teases are great they're so smart so uh alec give me your opinion we were thinking about extending koc and quasi after this season in fact maybe even right now at the bye week we're gonna give them a two-year extension we're thinking but what do you think why don't you why don't you tell us what to do which you know they've never done before but we can help sometimes anyway uh like run

ty chandler more there you go uh that's off the off the question but the extensions for them in giving them more solidified positions where it's not we better win in year three or we're going to be on the hot seat uh first do you think if they called you you'd give an opinion i can't imagine you would oh really you would give an opinion? I can't imagine you would. Oh, really? You would give an opinion. What am I doing here? This is what I do. I know I'm messing with you. Yeah. I mean, what is the precedent for this? I mean, that would be the question that I have. think and it goes back to the initial conversation when you set a a a strategy of wanting to win in the present and create flexibility for the future and you do that I mean they they really have um it's hard not to just believe now I know you could talk about the Lewis scene draft pick and and we could talk about trading down from 12 to 32 and I'm sure between Mark and Ziggy and Kweisi, those discussions have been had and talked through and explained and the intentionality behind it has been rehashed.

But I mean, for me, with what you've seen specifically, I mean, I've talked about Kweisi with Kevin O'Connell. I mean, you've written about this often. You've said it multiple times, but to go from one and four with the sky seemingly falling. I mean, Kevin O'Connell said the sky wasn't falling, but on the outside, I mean, I'm not shy about it. It's like you looked at the situation. You looked at where this team wants to go, which is to win a championship. And it was hard not to say at one and four, maybe the best idea here is to pull the ripcord. They did not go with that approach. They remained confident internally.

Kevin O'Connell prioritized October and winning in October. And the players really bought in and followed suit and performed. And up until Sunday night against the Broncos, I don't know about you, but I just had the feeling like this is a confident, motivated group that's just going to win and pull out these games. And had it not been for turnovers, they would have won their sixth straight game. And so if you're Mark and Ziggy, and you think about what you hired these guys to do, and the conversations that I'm sure were had leading up to those decisions to hire those guys, it'd be hard, I think, to not look at this sample size of a year and a half or more and not be like, man, you guys, you guys deserve an opportunity to really build this thing. You want the way you want to do it because they, they, they really have accomplished what I think the, the, the goal from the outset was for them

to do. I would not want to see them make any decisions to try solely to win in 2024. And what I mean is irrational decisions, not like, Hey, sign a good player in 2024. And what I mean is irrational decisions, not like, Hey, sign a good player in free agency. What I mean is what happened in 2020 should really be a lesson to this ownership, which was they came off a season where they want to play off game. It was quite clear. They were going to take a step back and they still extended. Everybody kept going in that same direction. And two years later, they just had to fire the coach that they should have fired anyway. And we were left with this. We're going to play a year to year thing with the quarterback and missed plenty of opportunities to

try other things along the way in a situation where they weren't going to win, which is the key. Like if you're going to experiment quarterback position, usually you want to do it when the standard is not that you're going to win and compete. It's try to get someone where you can grow the whole roster together. That is going to be an interesting dynamic here, where if you win 10 games this year and you do a lot of it with Josh Dobbs, regardless of whether it's amazing or it's mediocre or whatever, then it's, well, you got to win more next year than you won last year. And that's where you end up with the, should we just bring Kirk

back? Because whatever, whatever, but you are also risking making the same mistake that the other group made, which was, should we just bring Kirk back? Cause we want to play off game and we really need to get back to the playoffs and win again. You'd rather see them take this approach of getting a quarterback in the draft having a bridge quarterback where you can try to split the difference but the thing about this roster is i think they're fooling us a little bit with brian floris i was i was going it was like an alarm bell in my head i that is important to mention i think brian floris is scheming the ever-loving hell out of this defense and they are squeezing every amount out. But when you go player for player, and then

you look at San Francisco and then you look at Philly and then you look at Dallas, you go, nope, that's like three years away from those. So you might feel like, Oh, we're right there, but you don't have Micah Parsons. You don't have, you do not have these foundational pieces that you still need to find build around, which either come from high in the draft or free agency and spending the money and getting a Montez sweat, getting a Vaughn Miller or something like Los Angeles did. You're, you're not quite there yet with that. So they need to look at this roster still through a global, like long-term perspective perspective which to me matches up with a

quarterback but i also keep thinking you you brought about um you know tearing it down there's been in in my mind a lot of what if they did it probably would have been better for their long term if at oh and three they traded the neil hunter and everything else it would be terrible right now and the youtube clicks would be horrendous for me i'd be very upset can you imagine my twitter teases at that point oh just horrible who would be reading you at the athletic right uh but you know mock drafts you really always do the mock drafts that's the only way you're good it's the only way but yeah uh i i think that they need to look at this and go you're gonna have jefferson for a long time derisaw for a long time o'neill bradbury continues to play well yeah addison a lot of this is going to be here ty chandler the next great running back in the national football league you are going to be

having these things for a long time and you shouldn't panic or freak out because you kind of overachieved in a year where some things went wrong for you. Yeah, no, I will say nothing they've really done to this point will tell you that they will freak out. But as you know, having covered this league longer than I have, like there are just so many facets at play ownership, feeling like they're getting closer and then pushing the throttle, uh, ego getting it. I mean, there's just, there's a lot that I think can, can affect the course of what we've seen in the past. And so, I mean, I'm totally with you. And the Brian Flores thing was ringing in my head because it is to look at what he's done with this.

I mean, it really has been like you think about like squeezing everything out of the orange, that cliche. You know, those great fresh juice squeezer. I mean, this is the best juice squeezer of all time with what he's done. It really is phenomenal. I was impressed in training camp by what they were able to do, what they showed, but the ability to mix and match guys, to have Joe Juan Williams, all people step into that game and make a gigantic play. It has been really, really impressive. And then you factor in the injuries as well, factor in losing Dalvin Tomlinson, who was, I mean, arguably maybe your most impact, like one of your most impactful guys on the defense last year. It's, it's been huge. And so

whether you have him or not, I completely agree in that Kweisi Dofametsa, Kevin O'Connell, and this staff have to just think about it globally. And that this is where the quarterback conversation for me for this upcoming draft has always been so fascinating because if you lose Daniil Hunter, who do you have at edge rusher? And where can you acquire the most high upside, most inexpensive, cost-effective talent? Up high in the draft.

I mean, it goes to the interior defensive line. Harrison Phillips deserves a lot of credit for what he's done. Stopping the run in the interior probably doesn't get enough credit. We've talked about this as well. But I really think there are just a lot of holes. Like you'd love to get, Caleb Evans has been pretty solid. The injuries have cropped up again. Byron Murphy, I think, has been like admirable, serviceable.

He's been better than others. But to have an elite cornerback for this system would be very nice there's just a lot of needs that complicate the picture as you think about how are they going to acquire the next quarterback and and um but ultimately i i mean that's the priority that has to be the priority because if you get that fixed and you surround that guy in a development system that is fruitful for that person, then you set your organization up for years down the road. Folks, I hope you've enjoyed listening to us talk about prize picks this year, but if you've missed it, here's how it works. You

go to prizepicks.com and it is simple. You pick either more or less between two and six players stat projections, and that's it. Now you're playing. So if it's X number of yards for a quarterback, you just decide, are they going to throw for more or less than that number of yards? But it works with lots of different options, receiving yards, touchdowns, even field goals, all sorts of sports as well. PrizePix.com slash purple. Go there, use the code purple for the first deposit match up to $100. One of the reasons I like PrizePix, it is very simple to use. You'd see how we do it on the show real quick and easy. And then we talk about our picks and also not expensive either. You can

turn $10 into $250 by nailing just a couple of picks. So go to prizepicks.com slash purple the code purple daily fantasy sports made easy and it is very hard to get elite talent at corner or edge rusher in free agency it's not something that happens however you can also trade for it which has been a route for a lot of teams recently especially you look at like wide receivers the gm here likes doing that too it certainly does and well look that's how they got tj hawkinson is when you have the rookie quarterback contract like what two was on which jalen hertz was on and is still uh inexpensive at the moment is you can be the team that trades for aj brown and with kirk cousins even if it's like a $38 million price,

which would be very cheap considering how he's played and where those prices have gone. But then you also have to pay there. So you also have to pay Jefferson. You can't really be the team that trades for the disgruntled star for the Montez sweat. Like you're not in that conversation. If your quarterback is expensive,

then it comes down to, do you think that Dobbs can, can win enough while you build this? Or do you absolutely need to pick a quarterback? Because you could, if you're Kevin O'Connell, it might come down to ego. Look at Kyle Shanahan and be like, I'm Kyle Shanahan. I don't know. Look what he's doing it with. I'll just scheme some stuff. He run two, three times a game and we got, we got the thing going here. Or it could be a guy. I understand Dobbs isn't good enough, but we're whole as a roster. Not quite there yet. So let's competitive with Dobbs. Stay competitive. If he turns out to be great, then well, hell yeah. We're in the deep in the playoffs and it's a jimmy g situation and you know uh that sort of thing um or you could look at it as like dobbs is just not going to be good enough so then what do you do like for a bridge quarterback because you need someone who's like at least approaching the kirk cousins level to win and that's where i think it does get tricky

yeah there's no question and the dobbs angle again it's part of like what ad it it's like it's like you got this pot of soup and someone threw like ketchup you're like whoa bro like like what does that do for us in the taste yeah yeah who's doing that yeah i don't know uh who's the ketchup i don't know i but but dobbs dobbs he makes it taste different than you ever thought could have possibly imagined. Yeah, that's not bad. Yeah, no, I appreciate it. You should write that. No, no, I think I'm okay. Dobbs is so interesting.

And then I don't feel like I have enough sample size to have an opinion on Kevin O'Connell can work with this guy and he can be the bridge. I don't feel like I've seen enough. I also feel like the early part of working with Dobbs through these three games and the lack of other quarterback health early on for Jared. I mean, to have Sean Manning as your backup really limits Kevin O'Connell limited, I should say, in the past because Nick Mullins is now back and Jared Hall is probably trending that way. It limited this staff's ability to get really creative in terms of what they could do with the quarterback run game. And Josh Dobbs obviously has shown his ability to scramble and that's important. And I also don't believe that Kevin O'Connell is ever

just going to scrap his wanting to be a passing first offense and totally going that route. But the value, you know, this, the value of the quarterback run is so much and it creates such problems for defenses that to to lean into it more which I do think they will do more down the stretch especially with when Justin Jefferson returns it really could change the calculus of really what he could provide because you I mean the fascinating part is he is a really good runner I mean he is like he's not Lamar Jackson and he's probably not Kyler Murray, but he is up there in terms of what he can do with his legs, and that is very, very valuable as we've seen in the red zone.

So how this shakes out throughout the rest of the season, how they use him, how they create their structure, their offense around him, and how that dictates the future or doesn't is, again, it's the catch-up that i didn't expect to be thrown in the soup i like that you went back to it i'm impressed yeah no problem it's like if you throw into double coverage like i'll do it again uh which sometimes sometimes josh jobs does one of the things it might come down to is how much you believe supporting cast makes a quarterback and we were talking about my homes now look the chiefs are still winning and there's still a scary team they just played philadelphia

right to the end if kelsey doesn't fumble travis kelsey mind you doesn't fumble the football they win the game yeah there's that and also yeah yeah i mean valdez scantling has in the past caught footballs yeah so if he's never caught a football ever i'd still be if you're going to face kansas city i'm not like ah no supporting cast there we're good my home's like right and i've always thought of it as like i i like video games so there's different levels of video games where if you were playing mad and you put it on rookie, you can look like Miami against Denver early in the season, score 70 points. You put it on pro.

Okay. It's a little more difficult. You put it on all pro all mad and like my homes is facing all mad and he's still doing enough to win games, which is just amazing because most quarterbacks under those circumstances, their line is not great on the edges and so forth. The receivers don't catch the ball. Most quarterbacks are not still leading the division, still a favorite for the Super Bowl. You know, that speaks to him. So how difficult you give a guy that track there is a major part of it. But there's also a level that you have to hit for this to matter. And we'll call

it the Ryan Fitzpatrick level. He goes to Tampa Bay. It's an amazing team, but it's not good enough. Like Brady goes to that team, wins a Superbowl Buffalo. He was there. They're good. It's not good enough. The jets, they had Brandon Marshall. He needs a win at the end of the season. They don't get it. So there's like like this level of are you good enough to make this matter and i think we're going to find that out and we have a big enough sample of dobs how often do you get a chance to see the guy like usually we have to like imagine it but we actually get to see it in play over these coming weeks of how good would the rest of these people and scheme have to be for this to work yeah it's like an incredible uh like petri

dish just to get to watch it like grow the all mad and that was that was much better than ketchup in the soup the viewers the the listeners will know that they will they will be very um certain in that opinion and i am as well i do a lot of podcasts yeah you do a lot of a lot more than me um no i i i it really is so interesting. And that's what, like, I wrote, I mean, we're speaking on, what is it, Tuesday, I don't know, Monday. And I wrote about, like, it's going to be so interesting to watch how Kevin O'Connell continues to adapt to Josh Dobbs and vice versa.

And it's like, how often in the middle of the season you're just like, oh, what would this guy do with the running quarterback? And you just get to, like, watch it and just get to see it. And how do the players around him adapt? Oh, we got a superstar wide receiver. What happens if we throw him in the mix? Like it is pretty incredible and interesting. And I think that's what's been fun thus far to watch.

I mean, the play style is fun in general. So, yeah, I really do think it's going to be, it'd be interesting to watch, be, be fun to watch, but you said it too. It is like my homes is playing all Madden. Like he, it's like third down, he's dropping back and throwing a, from the opposite hash to Justin Watson. And it says like, I mean, come on. And if he's doing that, just win the game for the, for the guy. But it, it, it, the surrounding cast is obviously very important. I think I've, I've, I think I've I've I just feel like I've learned that watching the homes this year and uh and and like I said earlier

Kevin O'Connell has discussed his belief that his system is quarterback friendly and we're going to find out over the sample size how much that really is the case and and how much it maybe is more difficult than uh it seems on the surface I think you need somebody who is going to give you a chance to actually go to the Super Bowl. That's good enough, right? Not just good enough to be like, oh, well, we'll be in the mix. That could be written on the gravestone of every Viking season. We were in the mix.

Congratulations. They don't hang banners for that. I think the Colts actually did hang a banner for that one. You ever see that? I did not. Oh, they actually did. It was like division champions or something. They were eliminated in the first rally.

Whoa, who put that banner up? Ridiculous. But they don't put up banners for, hey, it was just good enough. This is a fan base who is desperate to chase a championship after so many years of, oh, well, look, if they beat the Bears in 2020, then they go to the playoffs and they don't. And whatever. What does it matter anyway? Because you were never really a Super Bowl contender. 2017 is truly the last time they were. 2019 is really the closest. And that's one playoff win. So I think there is there's like the outside feeling of the fans who want to take the risk and draft a quarterback and go for something that could be better.

But I'm sure that also when you see someone who can operate and you also look around the league and see how many guys who can't, you're like, well, what if we just, right? Then we'll be in the playoffs and then maybe it'll go right for us. And then time is a flat circle. That's what everyone's looking to avoid. I think that our fans of this team. Now, this season becomes interesting in that discussion as well, because what is a successful season with Josh Dobbs? When I look at San Francisco, Dallas, you know, who else am I missing? Philadelphia. It's just not that level. There is not there. And yes, I'm aware they beat san francisco i was there kirk cousins played quarterback and also they were missing debo samuel and trent williams and their quarterback was concussed and jordan addison had to steal the ball away from a man so what about cover zero you like that one in real time most senseless call that you're ever going to see you were freaking

out great win for them but not proof they're better than San Francisco. So what does become a success? Like, do they have to go deep in the playoffs for us to say, hey, look, 2023 worked for you? I mean, I think if you're expecting a deep run in the playoffs with Josh Dobbs at this point with this team, I think that would be a little bit just bold in your prediction. I'll never tell a fan how to think because you should enjoy the heck out of it. And that's the fun part of it. But to your exact point, I mean, you watch San Francisco with Debo Samuel and watch them play and it's hard to think. I mean, now they have Chase Young, by the way, because why would I mean, why not add

another defensive lineman to that team edge rusher? So, yeah, a deep run would be to me. That's icing on the cake. I think the cake is making the playoffs. That would be an impressive feat, honestly, because you lost the Dalvin Tomlinson's, the Darius Smith's, Patrick Peterson's. You've had a billion injury. I mean, if you tell before the season, you're going to lose Jordan Hicks. You're going to lose Justin Jefferson for this amount of time. Obviously, Kirk Cousins, you're going to be like, oh, that was a disaster. And so the fact that it is competitive, I think is why a lot of the fans

are having as much fun as they're having. You said earlier, kind of the idea of maybe they'd be better off in the longterm if they had pulled the ripcord. And it's, I always try to think about the perspective from that. If there's a fan that seeks that like I can understand it having wanted to win a Super Bowl as badly as as these fans have and so it's so interesting but the the enjoyment that um it seems to me a lot of people have gotten over just being competitive of of of being in the mix again over these last few weeks uh it's something that people will enjoy and as long as you make the playoffs I think that'd be a pretty solid foundation for success with josh jobs what do you think well there's just so much more all or nothing in sports in general and with josh jobs alone it makes it

fun where it's sort of like with case keenum in way, but the problem is that fun turns to expectations pretty fast. It's true. And with case Keenum, for example, nobody said, Hey, 38 to seven in Philadelphia was totally fine. I had a great season. It was a, actually this was soul crushing and maybe we were never great enough to do this with case Keenum, a quarterback. That's what it will become. And the same thing goes for Dobbs where if it's win one lose one win one lose one the rest of the way you lose a couple games to detroit you're eliminated in the first round who's gonna say oh man wow that was fun rocket science remember that remember that great athletic feature where he was in the chess club like come on man i mean like that's not last year was a great example of this because as soon as they lost,

my first guest was Brian Murphy right after, like right after they lost. And I said, Brian, was that season a success? And he goes, no, 13 wins. One of the most fun seasons in history. Lost to the giants of the first round, not a success because that they were all into win. And so here's where it's different though is this year was not all in to win they did not do things in the off season that would have

suggested we're going to bring everybody back and we're going to win by any means they said we are going to have a lot of young players sink or swim Ivan Pace swim the other night I mean just really great job uh for for what he was asked to do. That's a guy now. Caleb Evans is a guy now. Metellus. Metellus, Bynum. These are future players.

Addison, future players that we have seen emerge since training camp to now. That is what changes the game a little bit for me, where you could get to the end of the road and it's exactly what we think it's going to be and still go you know what though I feel like they have a roster that's going to be together for years and build similar to 2014-15 early in the Zimmer years that is different from hey you lost with Patrick Peterson and Zedaria Smith like that's just a disappointment and I can't have another opinion that's a great point and it it been, that's one of the biggest adjustments of covering baseball. The NFL is from a week to week basis, the highs and the lows in terms of reaction and perspective.

I mean, again, Kevin O'Connell is the most brilliant coach of all time. One week and two weeks later, why didn't he punt on file? Like, what are we doing? He's the most conservative. Like it is unbelievable. And again, I, I'm not going to blame anybody for the reactions but it blows me away sometimes people are already is Josh oh man he can't throw it's like I don't know like if Ed Ingram's in his lap what's he supposed to be doing like or he can't spin out and Patrick Sertan's

playing corner on Jordan I mean it's it's really difficult but your point on the overall way they handled the offseason into this season and how that maybe could shift the ultimate final expectation to me that totally makes sense and it's probably where I would go where again if you say given the moves they made this offseason and the amount of injuries that they've had to go through this year and at the end you say with jobs jobs at quarterback they made the playoffs and put up a fight against whomever um it's not going to be easy in the moment but i think in months after that most fans probably rational fans will be able to sit back and say like you know what it's pretty crazy that even happens i think that's true but also i can

envision the comment person who says what was that worth we could have just very fair we could have just tanked and hey drake may or whoever else at the top of the draft and how do you disagree and that that's the struggle i have because on a week-to-week basis i have so much fun previewing games talking about the storylines talking about this whole dobbs mania thing has been great it's added like a totally unique element that hasn't been here since 2017 it really got you off the ground lift off oh that's good i like that i like that uh well the clicks rocketed into space for sure um and you know why and i heard from a lot of people who said like all of a sudden i was

interested in this team and i've certainly felt after the loss in denver the cold water poured on that it'll be back if they beat the Chicago bears, but we're talking about the big picture here. And if you make the playoffs, you're going to get worse draft status. And then what do you do from there? And that that's going to matter. So there's always this conflict of back and forth through a season of, is it worth it? What's a success? What's a failure. I tend to think so many young players had to go into this to make the playoffs that you can't call it a failure, I tend to think so many young players had to go into this to make the playoffs that you can't call it a failure, right? Because if, if everybody busted, if Addison was garbage, well, that's not good either. Like that's not going to help your future

quarterback. It's much better to have him succeed and be great when Jefferson was gone and then go from there. Uh, before we wrap though, uh, they're playing the Bears. So what do you think? What do you think? I mean, there is a discussion with the Bears because you lose to Denver. It's a team that was getting hot, and it really was a random loss. I will give them that.

Well, they've gotten 50 billion turnovers in three games, and when you do that, you're going to win. That is true. You lose to the Bears, though, and all of a sudden, I'm going to see them clicks. Like whatever happened with the SpaceX rocket. There's going to be a malfunction. It's going to come right back to Earth, right?

I mean, you have to beat the Bears. You have to beat the Raiders. You have to beat the Bengals. These now become the pressure ramps up that you can't have another Denver game. Well, this gets back to your previous point. If you're 6-6 and you're teetering towards picking 16th in the draft with the quarterback decision on the horizon, then it's like, ah, we're in no man's land. And prior to the season, that was a conversation point that we probably talked about. And I know you did probably 5 billion times on this show, but it is interesting.

And Chicago is not going to be easy. I mean, you'll hear the offenses, offensive coaches and players. Well, they they're really good at stopping the run right now. Eberflus, he's got the movement. They'll move after the snap. They'll make it real difficult. And it's like, it's true. Like if you watch the film, they are good at stopping the run and the Vikings besides the game against the Broncos who can't stop, couldn't stop you running through the, the running between the tackles, the Vikings have not been able to run the football well. And if they don't have Justin Jefferson back in that game to be able to keep another safety deep,

running the football is going to be extremely, extremely difficult. And then you're going to have Josh Dobbs dropping back into coverage against a Bears pass rush that is better now with Montez Sweat than it was when they played him weeks ago. So it's not going to be easy. I say, I mean, it's not shocking. No game with this team specifically is ever easy, but it is important because the margin in the NFC playoff picture is thinner. I mean, some of these teams chasing them, I mean, are pretty well coached. So it's kind of interesting. And and Justin Fields is out to prove that he is valuable for somebody.

So not I mean, it's not it doesn't I don't feel like the most comfortable about it, to be honest. I am right there with you where I also think the pressure all of a sudden ramps up when you don't win against denver then there's a you can't have that next one happen or then everyone's gonna think okay it was a two-week fun thing but now we're back to earth and there's the thing is though about the nfc race there's nobody exactly creeping but if you start to fall apart somebody will get hot and catch you some of these other teams have fairly easy schedules. The Rams specifically, like they turn the other team over a billion times and win games. And that's just it. Right. Exactly. So this is a game. It's not a must win because, you know, you're still going to lead the playoff race, but for the feeling of going into the buy, what you can be down the

stretch. Can I believe you could take one out of two from Detroit? Can I believe you could be dangerous for the playoffs? All of that starts kind of here after that first loss to denver and how you respond so you will be there i will be there in fact we're always here we're it's it's 3 a.m right now after thanksgiving i mean i want the people to have a good thanksgiving you do you can still listen to podcasts on thanksgiving yeah, you can. You can. You can. And you should. And click articles as well.

Yeah, click, click. Subscribe to The Athletic for four cents a month or whatever deal you guys have going on at the moment. You're too good. Alec Lewis from The Athletic has done a great job covering the team all year and as you can tell very intense on podcasts so we will definitely have you back again at some point very soon and thanks everybody for watching slash listening

we'll catch you later