Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - The Athletic's Ted Nguyen answers: Is KOC an elite play caller?

Episode Date: July 15, 2025

Matthew Coller is back with 'Tape Guy Week' and is discussing Kevin O'Connell with The Athletic's Ted Nguyen, and whether KOC is an elite play caller in the NFL.

Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of purple insider Matthew collar here and we are continuing tape guy week with a real tape guy here from the athletic returning to the show. Ted win. One of my favorites, a must read at the athletic anytime Ted you put something out, I am making that click. So we're going to talk play callers today, but first we're only a couple of weeks away. Ted, tell me you're excited. My friend. I am. It feels like there is no off season for football really.

But like these few weeks feel the most like there is an off season, like we're in between mini camp and training camp. But even then there's stuff to talk about. You know, me and you were, we're on here talking about football. So it's a year-round sport really, but I'm excited for real football to come back. Absolutely. I mean, my thing that I get tired of is we've got the same tape and the same numbers and the same narratives all the way. They ended in February. So we have been working with the same information for a really long time. And now we finally get some new narratives, new information, new teams, how they look together even just with the reports from training camps.

So I cannot wait for that, especially with so many changes to the Vikings roster. But what I wanted to discuss with you is a fascinating subject to me having covered a single team for as long as I have and knowing that fans always dislike the play caller that they have in every single NFL city. I think all of us, and it's part of what makes football great is that I can sit in the press box and be like, Oh, Connell run the ball. What are you doing? And everybody at home can do the exact same, But I want to talk about the best play callers in the NFL in your opinion and what they do

best and then we can tie that into Kevin O'Connell. So why don't we start there? You studying a lot of different offenses and a lot of different play callers. How would you define or what are the main traits of a great play caller in the NFL? That's a great question caller in the NFL? That's a great question. And I agree with you. I think every fan base hates their play caller and like, you know, even from an outside looking in, you're like, there's no way that fan base doesn't

like that play caller, but you'll, you'll find, you'll find haters in all corners. Like there's people that don't like Kyle Shanahan. There's people that don't like Sean McVay, surprisingly. Um, and if you're like a guy that covered the Raiders for me, like, you know, I think the Raiders would kill for somebody like that, but that's just the nature of the business, everybody thinks they could be a better play caller than the guy who's actually doing it.

But it's an interesting question that you asked, what makes a great play caller? I identified six areas where I think, you know, that you have to be good at to be a great play caller. And there's some play callers that are good in some of these areas and not so good in these areas, in some of these other areas. But I think to be the elite of the elite, you have to be able to do these six things. And one, can you create an advantage before the snap? And that's what shifts, shifts,

motions, formation. Can you create a advantage with those easy things that you can control before the snap? Two, can you get the best out of your quarterback? And we could see this very black and white. When you put a new quarterback in your system, can you get the best out of him? We've seen quarterbacks feel in bad situations and we've seen quarterbacks we thought were mediocre

play well in different situations like we've seen quarterbacks we thought were mediocre play well in different situations like Sam Darnold. Three, can you effectively get the ball to your best playmaker? You know, I think there are times where there's some coaches that are just like, oh, my best playmaker is being double team. That's okay. We'll use them as decoy and we'll get one on one for these other guys. But I just don't think you could do that and live that way.

You have to find a way to get your number one guy open when you need him to get open. Number four, can you put your players in position to use their strengths while hiding their weaknesses? So, you know, a lot of play callers talk about, like, we wanna create or tailor our system to our players, but I don't think a lot of coaches are good scouts. And I think part of this is you have to be a good scout

and you have to be able to properly identify what your best players or your role players do really well and how you hide and what their weaknesses are. And you can't do that first part of just identifying it. And it's a lot harder than you think it is. And you know, you can't just like this guy's really fast. So we're going to try to put them on deep routes all the time. You have to be really nuanced with your scouting report of your player and how to effectively use their strengths and try not to ask them what they're not good at. So I think that's one of the top things

that I think that's a very hard thing. Not all great coaches are good at evaluating their own players. Five, can you attack your opponent's weaknesses? So that's game plan to game plan. How good are you at finding those weaknesses? And how good are you at exploiting those weaknesses? I think Kyle Shanahan is one of the best at this. Steven Ruiz from the Ringer has like a meme,

a microscope meme where, you know, Shanahan kind of puts his microscope over one player and he'll just attack him relentlessly. So he's really good at identifying those weaknesses and just like harp, just, just, you know, kneeing on those weaknesses. And number six, can you hide your own weaknesses? So as we know, it's easy to go to go in with the last stack roster and, um, just, you know, do all these crazy fun things. But then when you are, um, in the season and it's attrition hits injuries hits, like, how do you hide those weaknesses and how do

you game plan around them? I mean, that is a tremendously detailed answer, Ted. I didn't know you did homework. I sent you the message and I said, Hey Ted, let's talk about play callers. And you've got this incredible list there. So let's go through it and talk about how it relates to Kevin O'Connell. And then I want to add a couple of things to that list as well. So I think as far as getting the football to your best player, this is a big one

for Kevin O'Connell that gets a gold star. Justin Jefferson, regardless of how defenses play him, has continued to be the most dominant wide receiver in the NFL, which is incredible when you see how defenses cover him. And then if they go too far, well, then he's found ways to take advantage with Jordan Addison and TJ Hockinson, et cetera. I think that O'Connell is extremely good at understanding his strengths and weaknesses and players and nuances of how does Jefferson run this route

in this situation and how does that play for us? How does this quarterback like Sam Darnold throw certain routes with certain details and footwork and what works for him and what doesn't work for him? We saw a pretty serious adjustment from the Kirk Cousins era to Sam Darnold. routes with certain details and footwork and what works for him and what doesn't work for him. We saw a pretty serious adjustment from the Kirk Cousins era to Sam Darnold. And I thought that that was very telling because we didn't know, can he really adjust with a new quarterback or not? And he definitely showed that he could.

I think covering for weaknesses is something I might say is not quite as strong for Kevin O'Connell because they continue to have long developing routes and deep drop backs despite the fact that they're having problems with the offensive line and I know you can't completely throw out your offense it's a downfield passing offense but just against the Rams or Detroit for example at the end of the year they're getting smashed on the offensive line and it didn't really seem like they had a counter punch. And even with the running back position, it's not like they've had Adrian Peterson and Derek Henry back there over the last few years, but I'm not sure that they have fully maximized what their run game could be to completely take advantage of other teams playing those

deep safeties and putting all of their obsessions on Justin Jefferson and yet you're still not a top 15 running game. That's kind of hard to believe, right? When there's so much attention for one player in downfield passing. So there are some things where I would say are reasonable. The other thing that I think stands out to me getting to see every play of every game for an entire season of one person calling plays is a sense for situation, like understanding the feel of the game. And this is where I think O'Connell is improving, but I do not think that he is fully mastered

this yet. And I've used, you know, sort of some of the same examples throughout the season, but they were getting ahead in games and letting teams back in because they continued to push the pass button a lot of times. And you saw him do a little better at that toward the end of the season, but like kind of having that feel for, Hey, your quarterback today, just in London is a good example. Your quarterback today is definitely off. So maybe when it's third and 15, taking a shot down the field on a deep drop on

third and 15, when you're ahead by two scores is not the best idea here. And that one right there, Ted, I think is the hardest one to evaluate from the press box, the hardest one to evaluate. Even if you watch every single play is what kind of field does this offensive coordinator or play caller have for the actual game situation. Yeah. And that's one where it's probably harder to judge off of all 22. Like you would, you know, probably benefit from watching the game copy, understanding what, you know, the, how the field of games going like it. And some coaches do that. Some coaches before they watch the all 22, they're going to watch, um, the game tape, I mean, the, um, the TV copy and kind of get a feel for the game

and understand those situations with a little bit more context because you know, you can look at the number, the scores and yeah, you can understand the situation, but like there is a feel that you know, I admit that it's hard to get unless you are at the game or you're watching the TV copy. So I want to dive into a couple of those other things to just for you to explain them.

Like the pre-snap stuff I think is very interesting because McVeigh came out in what was that 2017 and he's running jet motions and things like that or rocket motions, whatever people call them and defenses were like what in the world do we do with all of this stuff? And the numbers have continued to be strong when teams use motion. They've had more success. Maybe that's some of that's that a lot of times it's tied to play action early down type of stuff. But like, where do we stand in that?

Because I think that the Vikings ran into it a little bit last year where O'Connell wants to do a bunch of that stuff, but Sam Darnold didn't really love it and it asks the quarterback, because if you're sending three guys in motion or something, like the quarterback has to have words for all that stuff and he's got to get it all out and he's got to get to the line of scrimmage. And at one point, Justin Jefferson went to O'Connell and said, stop it. Like, let me run around and beat a guy and we'll win. And I think that that's a very delicate balance because I do agree that teams that have motion succeed,

but also understanding your own personnel and how that's going to fit in has to be part of the calculus as well. Yeah, I agree. I think when you use motion, you're trying to confuse the defense, get them to get out of place when they're trying to adjust. But it's also, it could be harder offense because if you're a quarterback you want to know what the defense is doing but if a motion causes them to make a shift or a change before the snap then you have to process that as a quarterback in an instant and that might have to change your process and that could be difficult for a quarterback.

For off the blind man if you're run blocking and all of a sudden the front totally changes right from a snap because of a motion it makes it harder for you to get your landmarks and things like that. But I think for the most part, creating that confusion for a defense creates an advantage for the offense. But like you said, there is a limit to it. You know, like when you get into those like shift, shift, motion, motion, it gets a little too much. So maybe like one or two motions at times. Yeah, there are times where you could create a huge advantage

with multiple shifts of motions in one snap, but it is a balance. And I think as a coach, you know, you see those things and you want to create that advantage, but you have to kind of temper it down. But I just think the best coaches understand and can predict how defenses are going to adjust. And they could predict how that they're going to create

disadvantage by doing this motion to shift. So you have to have that ability, number one. And two, if you have to temper it down, yeah, sure temper it down. But having that ability to predict what defenses are going to do and how to create advantage. It's a rare skill in my opinion. Yeah. And I want to see how much they implement that with JJ McCarthy early on,

or do they build on that throughout the season, trying to get him to fully master just the basis of things and then start to add more and more and more tags to different plays. The other thing too is that defenses, they didn't sit on their hands while all these offenses were doing the motions and just be like, Oh, I guess we're screwed Ted. They have found a lot of different ways to deal with those motions, whether it's just passing people off, because a lot of times what used to happen, and it still does happen

sometimes where somebody goes in motion and you can tell is it zone coverage or is it man coverage based on whether someone goes with the wide receiver pre snap. This is something people can watch for on TV. Oh, hey, that corner is following that guy. They're probably playing man coverage, but defense has got a little crafty and they started saying, we're just not going to travel, but we're going to play man coverage anyway, or we're going to play whatever it is that we're going to play, or we're going to communicate that cat and mouse game has been so interesting to watch. And I think part of being a good play caller is also understanding defense and how defenses work.

And you mentioned that Kyle Shanahan thing of being able to put teams under the microscope. And this is where, cause I think a part of this is not only talking about what makes it, but how we evaluate it from our seats right here. I think opening scripts tell us a lot about that Ted, where you can get a real sense for, oh, they had a great plan here or okay, they really didn't or they got something they didn't expect from the other team and you sort of got out cat and mouse by the opposing defense.

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Restrictions apply, see the website for full details and important safety information. Yeah, usually with the first 15, that's when you're going to see the craziest shifts and motions and plays that involve a lot of pre snap movement because movement because, you know, as a coach, you kind of have a theory and idea of how a defense is going to react to your formations and line up against your formations and react to your shifts and motions. But you won't actually know until you get into the game and you actually do

it. So the first 15, they're trying to test out how this defense is going to react and they're taking notes and they're adjusting your game plan. Or if it's exactly what they predicted, just going to stick to the plan. So that's another skill. So, you know, are you able to adjust if a defense throws you a curve ball? Some coaches are really good at it and some aren't. I mean, if you look just the first 15 guys like Kyle Shanahan, Andy Reid, Sean McVeigh, their offense is moving up and down the field in the first 15 plays. And then there's other coaches that kind of stall out, like Bobby Slowick, for example, with the Texans. He was really good with his first 15, but then the offense would just kind of sputter on in the seconds and third and third quarter.

So it's another skill that we didn't talk about, but you have to be able to adjust to curve balls, defenses throw at you. Yeah. And there's another part of that too, which is there's a whole coaching staff that's working on it. And some people have jobs up in the press box where they're supposed to track different coverages and how the defense is playing. I think if you have good personnel that's doing that for you on your coaching staff, that can even be a part of it. And I remember somebody telling me, maybe it was a Steve

Bear line. Cause I did a story on Gary Kubiak and I asked Steve, like, what makes the guys such a good play caller? And he said that he would notice trends in the defense, how they handled certain combinations, how they handled certain run looks in the first quarter and then bring it back in the fourth quarter, knowing like, okay, they, they did this way this time. So we're not going to go right at that. We're going to put that in our back pocket. We're going to bring it out later. So there's a lot of little nuance and detail that goes into this. Now, here's a

much less, um, tape guy style, uh, question for you. That's a little more, maybe if you were a yelling, talking head on TV, but, uh, where would we rank at this moment, Kevin O'Connell among these great play callers in the league? Because there are a lot of them who are very well established, you know, like Sean Payton, Andy Reed, like the the goat legends who have done this for a long time. And then there's kind of a second wave of Shanahan McVeigh, who have really proven themselves been to Superbowls, that kind of thing. And I think O'Connell is emerging to eventually be in that group,

but cannot make an argument for it quite yet. Yeah, I would say he's at the top of the second tier of play callers. The first tier, you know, Kyle Shanahan, Andy Reed, Sean McVay, Sean Payton. And, you know, I would even put Ben Johnson up there. I mean, I just really love what he does. I think, you know, he, he hits all the marks that we talked about, talked about, and he has a great feel for the game as well. I know he hasn't gotten to a super bowl or anything quite yet, but when I study,

study his offense consistently, he's a guy that just impresses me. Um, maybe he's not quite the first year yet because those guys have longevity. Um, but yeah, he's, he's getting close to close to there. I think they have to have an effective run game and you have to out coach somebody in a playoff game. Like you can't go over to and get out coached into playoff games and then make an argument that you're up there with Sean McVay just yet, but I think he falls in that Laflore and Ben Johnson type of category of being proven. I also think that it's a little

harder when you're the head coach to call plays than it is if you're the offensive coordinator and there was a serious adjustment period with that, even though they won 13 games in their first year, it takes time to learn how to handle all those things that are going on in the sideline and call plays. The Vikings actually go look this up Ted, if you didn't catch it last year, they miked up O'Connell in a preseason game. And he was talking on the broadcast well, also still listening to the play calls in his headset and talking to the refs and talking to people on the sideline. You're like, oh yeah, there's a lot going on down there for the head coach. So it is, it is quite a challenge. Now, as they make this adjustment from Sam Darnold to JJ McCarthy, what do you think O'Connell would change for a less experienced quarterback?

Because even though Sam Darnold had not had the most success in his career before Minnesota, he played a lot of freaking football before he got here. JJ McCarthy has not thrown a pass since was it December 2023 is the last pass that he threw in a real game. And then I believe it was 17 preseason passes and that is it. That's not a lot of throws and yet they have an offense that is all guys who are veterans, established players. They know it. A lot of the guys have been in this offense for multiple years. Like how should he strike that balance between wanting to say, Hey, go get it. Like throw down field, be aggressive, pass first offense, and also understand

that this is a quarterback who's going to need to take some steps here before he is fully established as like a quality NFL starter. Yeah. steps here before he is fully established as like a quality NFL starter. Yeah, I think we saw signs of it with their off season acquisitions. They, they beefed up that offensive line. I think the purpose of that is they want to be better at running the ball and they have to be better at running the ball with a rookie quarterback that really, you know, when he was in college in Michigan, they, they relied on their run game and they relied on their defense. I mean, you know, it's not to say that they didn't put the ball in his hands when he needed to, but they ran the ball a lot and they were up, they had leads a lot. So he didn't have to, you know, lead a lot of comebacks and play

these pass heavy scripts. So I think we'll see a similar adjustment with the Vikings. They're gonna run the ball a lot more. They cannot be as middling of run game as they have been in the past and just expect JJ to go in there and lead a high flying passing attack. And we're gonna see a lot more of those training wheel type of plays.

We talked about the motions and shifts. Veteran quarterbacks don't like it, but for a guy like JJ McCarthy, you want to create those advantages where you could get the first read open more often than not. So you're going to see a lot more of that and a lot of play action. Play actions where it says one or two reads and you know, you rely on your arm talented throw guys open if

they're not quite as open as you want them to be. So, um, you know, stronger run game, more run game and more of those training wheel type of, um, easy button type of, um, the plays within, within an offense. It's such an interesting balance to strike because you have the best receiver in the world. And I agree with you logically speaking of, Hey, if you can run the ball and stay ahead of the sticks and run 40% of your plays play action, like that's going to be great. And at the same time, like, what if he just generally throws the ball to Jefferson all the time? Like we've seen that work for even, uh, Nick Mullins had a fair amount of, uh, passing success, just throwing the ball to Jefferson. And there is a part of me that thinks, well, he's not exactly a rookie and he understands where it's supposed to go. So maybe they can lean into him a little bit more than we think, because I know that

he had the training wheels on at Michigan, but he also shined in a lot of the biggest situations where they needed him to throw in Michigan. They just didn't need it a lot. I go back and forth on this a lot and I totally agree on the running game. If you could stay ahead of the sticks, then you're going to be good. But this offense that Sam Darnold ran last year, it was really designed for JJ McCarthy in mind. They didn't know McCarthy was going to get hurt and not play. And they were one of the most pass heavy teams in the league.

So I guess I'm more interested to find out how this is going to be managed. I think for Kevin O'Connell, this is probably going to have to go back to the field thing, Ted, where he's going to have to just feel out where JJ McCarthy is at and be constantly shape shifting and adjusting. And I think that that's another sign of great play callers is when something's not working or something's not fitting that they make a change and they alter what they're doing. Like when Zach Taylor changed for Jake Browning and started to throw nothing but screen passes or last year when Malik Willis all of a sudden came in the

game and Matt LaFleur had to switch it up. KOC might have to do something like that on the fly this year. Yeah. I mean, I don't think this office is all of a sudden going to go into a run first mode where they are top five and run rate. Um, you know, they just have too many weapons to do that, but I think they're going to run more often than they have in the past for sure. I wouldn't be surprised if it's like a five, five to 10%

crank up in the run rate just because, um, yeah, you have a rookie quarterback and I feel like, you know, they did, um, address the offensive line in order to be a more physical team and run the ball more and take advantage of those light boxes that you're getting, you get because of Justin Jefferson being on the field. Okay. So I want to throw just a couple a couple quick more rapid fire at you that are a little bit random, but you mentioned Ben Johnson. Is that going to work with Caleb Williams? What do you think? It's going to be one of the more interesting storylines in the league this year for sure. I mean, there's a cool little story about Ben Johnson kind of chewing out Cale Williams in practice in front of the media.

And then after practice, he explained, Caleb got to his check down, but he got there late. So Ben Johnson is coaching him hard and he's not letting him get away with just kind of playing lackadaisical ball and getting out late. Just because you can because you're a more athletic quarterback. He's got to he wants him to be able to play on time and he's coaching hard early and how Caleb Williams adjust to that coaching how he takes that coaching is going to set the ceiling for where this offense is going to be.

I love what they did with interior line. I think they're going to run the ball better. I think Caleb Williams put up pretty decent numbers for being in a pretty rough situation last year. So I think there is a baseline play. I don't think he's going to be terrible next year, but where that ceiling is, it is all dependent on how Kayla Williams takes coaching. Yeah, I agree.

And I also think that there's something about Kayla Williams in the way that he sees the field or rather doesn't see the field at times that makes me wonder, can you do the same stuff that you did with Jared Goff? Because I think Jared Goff superpowers that he sees the field extremely well, especially in the middle of the field and delivers the ball on time where it's supposed to go time and time and time again. I mean, this isn't just a Caleb Williams adjustment. This is a Ben Johnson adjustment. The other part is too, and this is what kind of perplexes me

about the bears. Deandre Swift is there starting running back. He's had a couple of good games against the Vikings, but I don't think he's a great running back. They've built up their offensive line to be good at run blocking, but it's not, you know, jimmy or Gibbs, and it's not the lions offensive line from the last couple of years. So how much is Ben Johnson going to do differently now that he has a situation that is not the same as he had before in Detroit because you just couldn't have two more different quarterbacks. Yeah, I wrote about this. They're there. Emphasis is going to be to fix that run game, but it's not going to be anything

close to what Detroit did because their offensive line was so dominating. They have that insane one-two punch, which Amir Gibbs and David Montgomery. I think it's going to be a little bit more of a spread attack because Caleb Williams, I think he works better in those type of formations, in that type of offense, but I think they're going to try to run the ball out of those formations. And you just want to get to a point get to a point where your success rate is above average. If they could do that, I think that's gonna be a huge boost for

Caleb Williams, a huge help for him. But the offense is gonna look different. Caleb Williams is still gonna be coached to try to throw the ball on time more, but I think you'd be foolish to try to take the ball on time more, but I think you'd be foolish to try to take away Caleb Williams strength and that's playmaking and there's going to be some of that at times, but it, you know, the really good quarterbacks that know how to balance playmaking and playing on time. Those are the guys that become elite. So we'll see if you can achieve that balance. Okay. Another guy that I'm really fascinated by is Cliff Kingsbury with Washington

and Jayden Daniels, and I thought that the truth was in the middle with Kingsbury and Kyler Murray. Uh, there's only so much you can do with Kyler Murray because of his size. And we have to acknowledge that that's, he probably can't really attack the middle of the field the same way that taller quarterbacks can but at the same time I think that they did have limitations to that offense in Arizona that maybe they built on last year with Jaden Daniels Do we now look at Cliff Kingsbury after one really really excellent season with Jaden Daniels as a Suddenly now very good play caller and very good offensive mind as opposed to the cliff cliff that was talked about so much with him in Arizona.

Yeah. I mean, I still have my reservations with cliff. I think there is a limitation to your offense when it's so static as far as formations. And, um, I think he used a little bit more motion than he typically did, but, um, you know, receivers are gonna line up in the same place for the most part, you know, and he did move around, motion than he typically did, but receivers are gonna line up in the same place for the most part. And he did move around Terry McLaurin a little bit more than he did with the Cardinals, with their receivers. But relying on no huddle and getting those simple looks, I think that's very effective.

And obviously, Jaden Daniels made that offense look great. But I want to see how he continues to build on it. I mean, I think, I think he's very creative as far as designing run game and those types of things, but I want to see how he takes offense to the next level, um, this next season. If it's a lot of the same stuff, I don't know if I think they're going to see a regression from the commanders. I want to see that offense. I want to see Jane Daniels, um, and Kliff Kingsbury take, take the next step as an offensive coordinator. Right. Because if they don't take another step, then people are going to figure it out as

they always do. And it will be maybe like with Bobby Slauick and some of that was injury related and whoever their offensive line coach related, not knowing how to block a stunt, but still like Bobby Slauick was being talked about for head coaching jobs. Then all of a sudden fired. Well, the league can figure you out pretty quickly. Last thing, give me a thought on a trend or something that is maybe an advancement you see or something that changed from last year as you were studying ball that you thought,

you know, maybe this could be going in a different direction or a new direction. And while you think for a second, I'll just shout out the person who asked me for my Friday mailbag why there aren't more flea flickers in the NFL these days. There used to be flea flickers all the time when we were kids. Ted, they don't do them anymore. I think that's because they would just get sacked right I think the D lines are too nasty and you would just get sacked a lot but bring back the flea flicker okay what's your real answer um I actually think that fleet flickers are kind of

making a comeback because we're seeing two deep safeties a lot and then when you're playing two deep safeties they have to come off the box to play the run so you're trying to get those safeties up more to get those flea flickers and throw them deep. But to get back to your question it's kind of boring but I think we're going to see more 6-0 linemen and a lot of teams are looking for that extra tight end that could block. We're going to see a lot more 12 personnel with these light boxes. There's teams like the Bills that use a six offensive linemen really effectively. The Lions use a six offensive linemen really effectively.

The Ravens essentially use a six offensive linemen with Patrick Ricard out there. So, you know, with these light boxes, you know, I think, um, getting that extra blocker, whether it's a tight, a true blocking tight end or a another off into linemen out there to create those advantages with those light boxes and lighter bodies. I think we're going to see a lot of a lot more teams kind of invest in that strategy. I think that's a good answer. And someone's going to have to show me a flea flicker data.

I need to know whether there's actually more or less flea flickers than there used to be, but there can never be too many. And if you watch college football on Saturday, they're just all the time. That's a great answer, though. And I think the Vikings are doing that with Josh Oliver, and they've been trying to, but I don't know that they've fully taken advantage of it because of some of the limitations on the line or in the backfield. Now with a talented backfield, a rebuilt line, they can probably use him more

effectively as a blocker. Before I let you go, Ted, any questions for me? I think you effectively added to my traits list. I thought it had a pretty comprehensive list, so I got a couple more from you that I got to add on there. Maybe I'll write an article about this. I thought it was pretty interesting preparing for I got to add on there. Maybe I'll write an article about this guy. I thought it was pretty interesting preparing for this. I love that idea. I would really like to see that if you get a chance to write it because it's a great list that you made and I've enjoyed talking about it. So, okay, well,

you know, I'm always there for you, Ted, if you do have any follow-up Vikings questions, but I appreciate you and all of your awesome work. I learned so much from you every single season about what's going on around the NFL and those X's and O trends. And I always just learned some new detail about football. Every time I read your work over at the athletic. So thanks so much for all the time, man.

And we'll definitely do it again. Yeah. Thanks for having me on.