Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - The most underrated Vikings of the 90s/2000s

Episode Date: July 3, 2020

Why Carl Lee was a shutdown corner of the day, what Amp Lee would have been like these days, an appreciation for Moe Williams and more.... Read Matthew's work at PurpleInsider.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Get Coors Light in the new look delivered straight to your door with Drizzly or Instacart, Coors Brewing Company, Golden, Colorado, and as always, celebrate. This is Brandon Kelly, the host of Blue Wire's new podcast, Golden Goal. From Lionel Messi to Marta to Pele, our show takes a deep dive into soccer superstars. From Zlatan Ibrahimović's rash confidence with the play to back it up, to Megan Rapinoe's heroic outspokenness and World Cup flair, each episode examines a personality of the world's game.

We'll dig into Maradona's hand-of-God performance and subsequent downfall, the teenage trio at Dortmund that signaled the next generation of superstars. And that infamous headbutt that slung Zinedine Zidane from glory. Golden Goal. Soccer stars and the moments that made them. Premiering this summer on Blue Wire. Hello and welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here and joining me, data scientist from Pro Football Focus, Eric Eager. What's up, Eric? biggest, you know, dynasty we've seen in the league in a long time. Things are okay, but, you know, a little nervous for, you know, for the season.

I just want to speak it into existence, I guess. Right, right, right. And training camp will start on July 28th. Everyone will be safe and we'll have a normal 2020 season. It's been keeping me sane to be able to talk about the 2020 season all summer long. And we're almost there to the point where we get to training camp. And America has not really come along and done a lot to help us here to have football, but it seems like they're going to push forward.

Let me ask you real quick before we get into your five most underrated Vikings of the last 30 years, which is why you're on, ask about Cam Newton because Cam going to the Patriots just sort of screams Kurt Warner's second run, Randall Cunningham coming to the Vikings. Like we've seen this movie before a number of times, but there's also the part that Cam Newton has not been the MVP in the league in a very long time, and he's been beat up multiple seasons. I've always thought, Eric, that Cam Newton has a unique will to be successful. He is just super, super driven, and he is a physical freak, and every player that I've talked to has talked about how smart he is at the line of scrimmage and commanding an offense and all those things. So I've always been a Cam believer, but there are a lot of injuries here

that he's going to have to overcome to be great with the New England Patriots. Yeah, I mean, I like those names that you brought out there. Interestingly, though, I mean, Kurt Warner, signed with the Cardinals, sat on the – who started for a year, was replaced by Matt Leiner, sat on the bench for a year, then came back. You know, it's a little bit more messy than that. And then Randall Cunningham, you know, came in as a backup for Minnesota and then only got a chance when Brad Johnson injured his, I think, like his thumb or something or leg or whatever in 98, you know, and there's, you know,

not to compare these two, but I brought this guy up in the podcast. It kind of also smells a little bit like Cary Collins going to like the Tennessee Titans at first and then going to the Colts when they had the year where, you know, Peyton Manning was hurt. You know, so I'm, I'm obviously, I think it makes them the favorite. I'm bearish on Josh Allen. I think that there's a little something there there with Sam Darnold. And obviously I'm, you know, pretty optimistic about the Dolphins

and their future. So when you look at, you know, the division, I think the New England Patriots become the favorite here, but it's not overwhelmingly so. And I think there's a, there's, you know, I think everybody's a little bit wrong about Cam. The people who think he's a complete bum, I think are missing the point. But the, you know, if we expect him to be an MVP in New England, I think we're going to be a little disappointed. Yeah. I also think that so much of what he does will depend on whether he can still run

in somewhat of the same manner. With Randall Cunningham, he was always an unbelievable passer, and then he was put in an offensive situation in Minnesota where he could throw to Randy Moss. And if he didn't want to throw to Randy Moss, he could check down to Robert Smith or he could throw underneath to Chris Carter or Jake Reed or whatever he wanted to do, that is not going to be the situation for Cam Newton. He is not stepping into a three deep type of spot for his weapons. It's going to be a lot more put on his shoulders if that offense is going to succeed. And I wonder if they try to have a don't turn the ball over, you know, get short passes out of the backfield,

into the slot, things like that with Cam, and then hope that a big play comes about every once in a while and they play really good defense because they are coming off a year where they were one of the best defenses in the NFL. I am at least intrigued because what we've had this offseason is kind of like a Madden offseason. Normally you would not see this much shuffling of quarterbacks in different places, but it's been wild. And Cam to the Patriots is one of those moves that it's Belichick playing at a different level of personnel, not just game planning, than a lot of other people. Other people would be scared of a high ceiling, low floor type of move like signing Cam Newton, so instead they pick Nick Foles

or they pick Tyra Taylor to start and Justin Herbert. Those are not better moves than having Cam Newton in my mind. Yeah, I mean it's sort of afraid to succeed, right? And we see that a lot. People will go for the known average, although I think it's a little even steep to assume that Nick Foles will be average with Chicago or Andy Dalton will be average with, you know, the Dallas Cowboys, so on and so forth. But, yeah, I mean, the thing with Cam, and it's going to be tricky,

is that, you know, last season he wasn't able to run. He had negative yards rushing during the first two weeks. And when he can't do that, it's hard for him to be efficient throwing the football. When he can run and he can be efficient throwing the football, then they can be good. My issue with New England is their targets didn't get any better over the offseason. So if those players can't win in two and a half seconds or less the way that they did in Carolina, his one year with Norv Turner, then that's going to be a problem. And, and so we'll,

it remains to be seen sort of like what will happen there. At very least it gave us a lot of fun at the end of June, where we're usually not getting big moves like this, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are a lot of other moves that start to roll in because people can finally get on planes and go visit facilities, things like that, that there are still trades out there to be had. And there are still a lot of free agents who are very good at football that are sitting home without teams so far.

Logan Ryan, Larry Warford, a couple of names of players who are proven and should have jobs, but they don't yet. Before we get to your five most underrated Vikings, one more thing. There were Desmond King rumors because Jaleel Johnson tweeted the letters DK and they went to the same college. There was also Jeremy Fowler put out a sort of mock trade of Riley Reif for Desmond King. I haven't really dove deep into it because I don't think there's

anything actually there in terms of reporting to get onto for any reason to talk about it. Aside from it does make a heck of a lot of sense for the Minnesota Vikings to acquire a cornerback and whether it's him or it's Denard from Cincinnati who's still a free agent or whether it's Logan Ryan going into this year where they still want to win and could win the division because Nick Foles is Chicago's quarterback, it would make a lot of sense to have one more corner who is a veteran and is proven, especially if it's a slot guy. That's what they really don't have is a true slot guy like Desmond King.

Yep, and that's why it makes a lot of sense. He's been a top 25 player in the secondary since the end of the league. He has kick return ability. He's really good in the slot, as you said. He can come off the edge and blitz. He can cover tight ends and slot receivers. And he can even play a little bit of safety, and I think that's where they're thinking of playing him this season

in Los Angeles, if he were to stay. You know, the issue is, okay, if you sign him, you trade for him, do you sign him? You have $12.5 million in cap space, or is he a one-year rental type of thing? You know, the Vikings send a lot of mixed messages this offseason, you know, with the Kirk Cousins signing making them look like they want to win now, and then the, you know, trading Stephon Diggs and drafting 15 players, making them look like they want to be sort of like a future team.

Desmond King, a trade there would sort of be splitting the difference. So I would welcome it, you know, if I'm a Vikings fan, but I don't see it happening, you know, but it would be fun if it did. I also think that Los Angeles doesn't see themselves as a team that's just going to tank. They want to be competitive, although maybe if there was that Riley Reif trade, Los Angeles Chargers have not had a good offensive line since LaDainian Tomlinson was there maybe. Okay, let's get into your list, though, because we're on the same page on that. I'd love to talk about a trade, but there's no report that he's on the trade block or that there's actual conversations going on.

It's just one tweet from Jaleel Johnson with some eyeball emojis, which I respect and enjoy, but that's not a trade rumor yet. It hasn't reached that status. So let's count them down. I was talking to you about this. You and I both like to watch old games. And one of the best eras to watch is that early 90s where there's so many players that kind of got left behind. Even Chris Dolman, it took longer than it should for him to get to the Hall of Fame or to get the recognition that he deserved players

like that. No Hall of Famers, though, allowed on your underrated lists, so you cannot include someone like Chris Dolman, but let's start the countdown because you are a connoisseur of watching old games, and if you have anyone on the current roster, that's allowed, too. So, number five on your list, most underrated Vikings of the last 30 years? I don't have any players on the current list, but I do. So here's somebody that I always had a fondness for. He was a starting cornerback on three Vikings defenses that were number one in the league in yards allowed. He made three Pro Bowls, was a first-team All-Pro. Carl Lee, cornerback out of Marshall. Yeah, I always thought that he was underrated.

Everybody gave the defensive line and Joey Browner, Scott Studwell, all the credit for those defenses. And I think having a shutdown corner like Carl Lee in a press man system really helped them. Carl Lee was not a guy that got a whole lot of attention but ended up on my hall of very good team for the Minnesota Vikings. I mean the fact that he played with them for a really long time was an all pro was multiple pro bowls it's one of the only ways that we can really do it statistically is you have to include how many pro bowls the guy made when you're just looking back at the Pro Reference page,

especially for defensive backs, because it's amazing now how much we rely on PFF's data to tell us whether a defensive back was good or not. Because it used to be, well, this guy's got a bunch of interceptions. But I remember having this in my mind that interceptions were not anything or everything when I was in Buffalo and they had Antoine Winfield and Nate Clements. And Nate Clements could not hold Antoine Winfield's cleats, but Clements would take more risks and he would get five or six interceptions and people would think he was the better corner,

but it was definitely not him versus Antoine Winfield. And I wonder about guys who played in the late 80s, early 90s, even up to 2000, how we should even really analyze them. I mean, Pro Bowls has to be a thing that we look at. Yeah, another one along that vein was like Delta O'Neill was a guy who had two seasons of nine interceptions or more, one with Denver, one with Cincinnati. But in season subsequent to that was benched because he just was a gambler that, you know, and, you know, Marcus Peters is kind of like that, although I think he's a little bit better.

Lee was very much more of a, you know, nom de a samois, where they just don't throw a side. And I think one of the things that you can maybe do to sort of look at this and say, okay, well, what's the deal? Well, Lee was a starter basically for three, four years. And then in 88, he had eight interceptions and ran two of them back for touchdowns on a Vikings team that I believe their average margin of victory in 1988 was 11 points, which is an astronomical amount. So they were a great team.

And then after that, Lee had two interceptions, two interceptions, one interception, two, three, and then he played for New Orleans for a year. So, you know, one year they tested him, got burned, and then after that he still made it to the Pro Bowl, but didn't have a lot of interceptions, meaning the league really respected him. And that's really our proxy for knowing whether or not he was good at this point. Yeah, that's a good point. And the late 80s to early 90s Vikings defenses, you might have more players on your underrated list.

But anytime I go back and watch the NFL films, recaps, or games from that era, it was almost Zimmer era-like in the fact that they would have a different quarterback for almost almost every year I mean sometimes every game you're running through different quarterbacks and yet relevant almost every single year they're in the playoff hunt in 89 they're playing on the final day of the season to make the playoffs and uh you you still really couldn't get deep in the playoffs with a great defense, but that was what usually guided them. Yeah, for sure. And, you know, even back then they had an effective offense

and they had a different quarterback make the Pro Bowl a couple times. But you're right. I mean, when going up – and it's just like today. I mean, when push came to shove in the late 80s, they were just not good enough to beat the 49ers in the playoffs. And in the 90s, you know, they were not good enough to overcome Brett Favre and win the division. And, you know, the one year they did run good, you know, in Vikings fashion, a team like Atlanta, it was their year to shine much like it was for Philadelphia in 2017. So, yeah, it's just frustrating, but those defenses were never the reason.

And that brings me to my fourth most underrated Viking, and he played for these same defenses, 100 career sacks. Not all of them were with Minnesota, but he, you know, was on a defensive line where he was a pro bowler, but he was not – he'll never be considered a Hall of Famer by any stretch. Hardware Hank Henry Thomas is on my list as well. What I like about Henry Thomas is the way that he lined up. Nobody does this anymore.

The cock knows. He was off to the side at like a 45-degree angle. I don't know why they did that. I've never asked anybody why the nose tackles of the day did not just line up straight toward who they were going to go smashing into. But it sure as heck was really good for Henry Thomas. This defensive line is preposterous in those days, especially when Millard had his couple of big seasons.

You have Dolman, Millard, and Henry Thomas on the same defensive line, and all of those guys could get 10-plus sacks at any season. Yeah, the 1989 Vikings, let me make sure I have this right, had 71 sacks. So you had 21 by Chris Dolman, four in the last week of the season Keith Millard was actually the defensive player of the year he had 18 um Al Noga who was a pretty good left end for them at 11 and a half and then Henry Thomas had nine Thomas had you know basically seven to ten sacks every single year in his career again playing that nose position uh in in classic Zimmer fashion even you know they were you know

it's not like now where you know Limbaugh Joseph would play you know first and second down and come out on third down for somebody like uh you know for somebody like Tom Johnson Thomas and and and John Randall Thomas and Keith Millard played every down and that you know their fact that their sack totals were that way every bit the more impressive given that you know I think they they were a a new age defense in the sense that their goal was to get to the quarterback and maybe tackle the running back on the way there and yet in 1994 the Vikings you know they had one of the best run defenses in league history I think they surrendered less than a thousand yards that entire year And that was Thomas' last year in Minnesota when he left for Detroit. The team got progressively worse on that side of the ball, even while keeping John Randall

a Hall of Famer. Before we get back to the conversation, I want to remind you to go to sodastick.com to get your original Minnesota sports-inspired goods. They just launched their partnership with Michelob Golden Light for the Mick Golden Light Fishing Club merch line. The logo includes a walleye chugging a beer, and they have it on shirts, hoodies, windbreakers, and more. If you haven't seen it yet, you definitely have to check it out. And also, we're going to hook you up with free shipping for your order.

Just use the promo code PURPLEINSIDER for free shipping. That's SOTASTICK, S-O-T-A-S-T-I-C-K.com. Original Minnesota sports-inspired goods. Code PURPLEINSIDER for free shipping. Philosophically speaking, the big giant nose tackle like Michael Pierce, I think that Joseph at his best could rush the passer. So he was a little bit different, and he could play three downs if he needed it to. 2017 he did. But Michael Pierce has never played 600 snaps in a season in his career.

And I wonder if that position will just always have a space in football to get a guy who looks like a fire hydrant and stick him there right over the center and that's just what you're going to do or if the ratio continues to lean toward pass if teams just don't even bother having these guys anymore maybe it's someone that comes off the bench I know that Zimmer seems sees it as fundamental to his defense to be able to stop the run on first down but if opponents are looking over and you have Michael Pierce and Shamar Stephan and saying we'll just pass then. I wonder if that continues to change to the point where that's no longer a thing. Yeah, well, and especially if you know with only one edge defender of any renown that you can make a pretty clean pocket and have your quarterback step up.

Those early down run plays are going to be more few and far between. I misspoke on the Vikings. They gave up – in 1994, they gave up 1090 yards on 3.1 yards per carry, which was one of the best defenses in Vikings history until you got to the Williams wall of the three straight years where they led the league in run defense. But still an awesome thing. And like I said, when you have great all-around defensive linemen like that, it's really hard to play offense.

All right, number three on your list. Okay, number three on my list is – and I'm showing my bias towards this. But he's a guy that played free safety for the Vikings, replaced one of the most important players in, in the eighties for the Vikings and Joey Browner. And that's Venci Glenn. Okay. You're going to have to explain that one.

So Venci Glenn was a, so bad. So part of the reason I like this is because he, he, he was emblematic of what the vikings had to do because of the herschel walker trade so vincey glenn was a you know he was a second round pick um by the new england patriots in a really weird way he was traded four four weeks into his career so 1986 drafted in the second round. So imagine the Vikings did that. They traded Brian O'Neill four weeks in.

He goes to San Diego. He's, you know, they're starting free safety for them. Back then, before real free agency, you had what was called Plan B, which is essentially you were able to, you had the rights to all your players, but you had to yield the rights of like 15 to 20. I can't remember how many exactly. And so those players were what were called plan B free agents, meaning you could sign them, but they were like restricted.

And that was the only way that players could move teams without a trade. So as you can imagine, in 1989, when the Vikings traded Herschel Walker to the Dallas Cowboys for a bevy of draft picks, they weren't able to replenish talent on the roster all that easily. Dennis Green shows up to Minnesota in 1992. He gets Jack Del Rio as a plan B free agent. He gets Roger Craig as a plan B free agent, a number of other players. Vincy Glenn was another one of those. And Glenn led the Vikings basically in interceptions for, you know, 93 and 94. Had, you know, was a great free safety from a hitter perspective, from a, you know, just like a, yeah, I think he intercepted Brett Favre like six times during his career as a Viking.

Like he was just, you know, an all-around great player. And again, in 19, you know, kept that defensive float, even despite the fact that Vikings had basically no draft picks on that side of the ball for three years. Well, the free agency point is really an interesting one because these teams were built on a lot of, in fact, the Vikings become classic for this even later on when free agency is a thing. But it's just a Vikings-y Vikings thing to have good players from other teams that come to you late in their careers and then play really well. And he didn't spend a ton of time with them. And, yes, you are showing your early 90s Vikings bias here with your list so far. But that's an interesting point about the Herschel

Walker trade and how they were able to build up these really great rosters, even sometimes with players that you wouldn't have expected. Although Glenn, I mean, he was a starter before, but even when he showed up in Minnesota, he didn't start all 16 games right away and then became their 16 game starter and was very good for them. And if you're going to build a defense that is as good as the early 90s Vikings defense is, it sort of takes random players like that. And I feel the same way about the current Vikings defense, that random pop-up players or guys that you acquire and don't have high

expectations for and then turn out to be really good has to happen in order for you to have a very good defense yeah and and that was and that was the thing i mean the the people you know dennis green was an interesting character but he made the playoffs uh was it eight seven out of nine years or eight out of ten years as a v head coach. And despite the fact that when he took over the team, they had, you know, basically the cupboard was bare. And, you know, it was really impressive the way that they rebuilt that roster and made some really tough moves. They traded Gary Zimmerman, who's a Hall of Fame left tackle, got Todd Stussy, they traded Chris Dolman, you know, they traded, you know, there was a number of moves they had to make that were difficult moves. And despite that, you know, they were able to stay competitive and stay relevant.

And a guy like Glenn, I thought it was always somebody who, you know, was a, you know, just a, you know, an emblematic symbol of that situation. And for my, I'm just going to throw in, my friend Solomon Wilcots played with him for one year, you know, in the intermediate time and said, he's also a great person. So I kind of liked that pick as sort of an underrated one. I was going to go with number two. I threw Jake Reed out of this conversation because I do think Reed was a, he's too good to be underrated, I think.

But interesting point about Jake Reed is that he was one of the picks that Dallas actually gave back to the Vikings in the Herschel Walker trade, which is kind of funny. He was literally the only good thing on the ledger for the Vikings there. But I'm going to go and venture into the new millennium here and go with Mo Williams at two. Okay, so you've moved on from Gen X to millennial with this, with Mo Williams. Can we real quick talk about the running back position for the Vikings

and the history of the running back position and what it was? When they traded for Herschel Walkerer they think that that's what they really need and maybe with teams back then the the running backs were always the centerpiece of the offense and so you could understand it more than we would understand it now if we looked at that trade now and someone did the same thing and gave up their whole draft for a running back who was only pretty good in dallas and a kick returner we would have our brains explode out of our skulls at the time you could see where they looked at it and said you know what our quarterback played is a pretty shaky here and we don't have an answer at that

position where someone's going to throw for at the time 4,000 yards a year would have been a huge deal if you could do that. We don't have this driving force of a passing offense, and we've got a couple of receiving weapons, but it's not like you had Randy Moss yet. And so you need that one guy with this great defense who can run and play defense and get you to the Super Bowl just like Parcells did. The ghost of Parcells was always hanging over everyone, right? Like the 85 Bears, Parcells, you win with defense. If you weren't a

team that had Joe Montana, then that's what you tried to do. So I've always kind of understood why the Vikings did that. What I never understood, and I'm sorry, we'll get to Mo Williams in a second, but what I never understood is why they used Herschel Walker different systematically than they should have. And I was watching an 89 broadcast on Monday Night Football. And, you know, it's Frank and Alan Dan, the great combination of Monday Night Football. And the whole game, Frank and Dan are talking about how, why are you running Herschel Walker this way? Why are you asking him to make reads and cuts? Why don't you just give him the ball and run him straight?

And I never really understood it, why they didn't use him like that. And overall, he has like a decent career, a very good career, you would say. And then in Minnesota, of course, they couldn't find the right way to use him. Yeah, I mean, that entire thing shows you all you need to know about the running back position. So, Herschel comes in from, for one, Herschel played in the USFL for Donald Trump, and they weren't good. He still has the all-time record for yards gained in a season by a running back, but you couldn't even win in the USFL with that. And then he goes to Dallas.

He goes in 86, they miss the playoffs. I think 87, they narrowly miss the playoffs again. In 88, he rushes for 1,500 yards, but the Dallas Cowboys go 3-13. He was first or second in the conference to Roger Craig, and that was the year that the Niners won the Super Bowl, but it was their worst Super Bowl team. The one year the Niners really leaned on Roger Craig was their worst year

of winning Super Bowl. So all that is sort of emblematic. And then the Vikings in 87 drafted DJ Dozier in the first round out of Penn State, and he was bad. And that was really like the impetus for this entire thing. In 88, I said previously, they outscored their opponents by 11 points a game and the glaring thing was their leading rupture was darren nelson with 380 yards 3.4 yards of carry they averaged 3.6 yards of carry as a group now they had 1800 rushing yards

but it was like seven guys with 150 or more or whatever, six guys, 150 or more. So they, you know, they go 11 and five. Interestingly, the only reason they don't win the division is because they lose to a four and 12 Packers team twice, including one, you know, sort of on the doorstep of the season. And then they beat Los Angeles Rams in the playoffs and they lose to the Niners in a game where they turn the ball over three times and rush for only 54 yards.

And so they start the season a little slow in 89, and they gravitate towards that position and get Herschel Walker. That doesn't work. But the funniest thing about that is the next first-round draft pick the Vikings had, so they didn't have one in 89 through 1992. The first first-round draft pick that they have in 93, they take Robert Smith, a running back out of Ohio State. So they did not learn their lesson, but alas, they got some good play out of Robert Smith.

Robert Smith's backup for some time, Mo Williams, is just an interesting one in that he was a special teams player mostly in his first stint with Minnesota, 96 through 2000. He was the backup to Smith in 2000, but that was the only year Smith started all 16 games of his career. So he didn't really get any run. Then he loses a training camp battle with Doug Chapman in 01 to backup Michael Bennett, who's a rookie at the time, another first round draft pick Viking running back. And he goes to Baltimore, plays for Brian Billick,

plays well enough where the Vikings signed him back in 02. And from then he's one of the better all-around sort of backup running backs in the NFL. He scored, what was it, 19 touchdowns on the ground, another four in the air. He had a season into 0-3 where he had 65 catches on 10 yards a catch. He was just a very good player for the Minnesota Vikings. And I think he's forgotten because right when he leaves, Vikings go and get Peterson.

They go and get Chester Taylor. Now it's Dalvin Cook. He sort of gets lost in the shuffle. But, you know, he's a very good, you know, Viking historically. And part of one of the great moments in Viking history with Randy Moss against the Denver Broncos, I interviewed Mo about this a few years ago, where Culpepper launches it to Moss. He catches the ball.

He's getting tackled, and he flips it behind his head to Mo Williams, who walks into the end zone. And those players, again, for that type of era, there were a lot of them for the Vikings, guys that you didn't necessarily think were going to be anything. Another guy that I talked to recently and hoping to have on the podcast sometime soon here is Kadri Ismail, who was the same way where he was a sort of a returner at first,

and then he builds up his career. And later on in his career, he becomes a very good wide receiver to go along with his kick returning. Mo Williams is the same kind of deal where it's a special teamer that you don't really expect. And they used to carry a bunch of running backs and have them all play special teams because special teams used to be a thing that mattered with kick returns.

And that's where I think of Mo also is teams used to have not one, but two kick returners that they would have back there. Yeah. And on the Madden games, you used to have to put in KR1 and KR2 for your two kick return guys that would be back there. And now we just don't even have kick returns. And I talked to Mo Williams not too long ago for an article about that, and he is personally offended, deeply offended,

that the NFL does not have kick returns anymore. And that's where I think of Mo Williams. And it is cool. It's a cool story. It's one that we used to hear a lot of kick returners becoming full-time running backs and ending up having good careers. Maybe someone like Charlie Garner starts off as a – I'm not 100% sure. Steve Smith's first play as a player in the NFL was running a kickoff back

for a touchdown against the Vikings. Yeah, yeah. Opportunity. It used to give guys opportunity, and Mo Williams is one of those good stories. He wasn't any sort of high draft pick or anything else. Was not fast. Didn't have, like, major wheels or anything else like that. Didn't have one discernible big-time skill that would have made him a star player,

but he was just a good football player. All right, so who else on your list here? 68-yard touchdown pass from Culpepper to open a playoff win against Green Bay and Lambeau, I think is also one of the more memorable plays of his career and just an awesome memory if you're a Vikings fan. My last player is also a running back, but he is my kind of running back. And this is Ampley, the Vikings third down back from basically the Warren Moon era. Lee was, let me look here, during his time in Minnesota, he caught basically 160 passes in three seasons. He set a Vikings record in 94 for the most catches in a playoff game

with 11 against Chicago. Was a kick returner, punt returner. He went on to be the St. Louis Rams MVP after leaving Minnesota because he went on to have more seasons of catching, like, 700, 800 yards worth of passes. But he's just like a player I think would be viewed a lot differently today in a league where, you know, throwing the ball to backs is a lot more, you know, thought of as a lot more efficient.

But I always thought Ampley was such a great player for the Vikings during his time. Before we get back to the conversation, I want to remind you that there is no shortage of action going on right now at our exclusive partners at betonline.ag. Sports are slowly making their way back, and BetOnline is leading the way with the best odds and lines for all UFC, NASCAR, boxing, and soccer matches. And if you need more, they have simulated NFL, NBA, and UFC simulations all day, every day, live on their website. Looking for something else other than sports?

BetOnline has hundreds of casino games, poker tournaments, and prop bets to check out. Visit BetOnline.ag. Use the promo code BLUEWIRE for a free welcome bonus. That's one word, BLUEWIRE. BetOnline, your online wagering experts. The other guy that comes to mind who's very similar like that is David Palmer, who was a do-it-all type of guy. And being able to throw it to the running backs out of the backfield,

somebody who could catch 75, 80 passes is a pretty great skill. And even going way back, Chuck Foreman is one of the original guys who becomes that dual threat running back. What always comes to mind for me is how many of these players who were thought of as scat backs because, well, they can't pass protect or, you know, you can't get us three yards in a cloud of dust on first down. How many of them would have been full-time star NFL running backs in today's game? And David Palmer and Amp Lee both are guys that I think would have been used

even more and would have been thought of as some of the better players because they would be McCaffrey-like. Like Christian McCaffrey, not the first running back in NFL history to catch the ball in the backfield. Exactly. And, yeah, and now that, you know, you're not requiring guys to run up in the hole so much, you know, guys like Ronnie Harmon would probably be, you know, former bills and chargers running back would probably be a star. I mean,

guys who are starters who are more like that, like Thurman Thomas and Marshall Falk, you know, Falk, you know, both of those guys are hall of famers. I think they would be, you know, even, even more highly considered in, in today's game. But yeah, I mean, you know, it was always funny. Ampley had a 100-yard game against the Vikings in 92 starting for an injured Ricky Waters. And, of course, like Dennis Green rushed to sign him when he immediately became a free agent.

It's sort of a fun, like, you know, symbol of sort of what the league, you know, was like back then. And, you know, I always thought it was great because, you know, was like back then. And, you know, I always thought it was great because, you know, those Vikings teams, I think eight of 20 games during like 94, 95 went into overtime. And a lot of those games were Warren Moon, you know, they get behind and Warren would have to throw the ball 70 times. And it was just, you know, put Ampley in the shotgun next to Moon and throw to, you know, Reed, Carter, Ismail, and then, you know, Lee was certainly a guy that dealt, you know, did a really good job with those openings. I love the list, and I want to ask who you think on this current roster or in the Mike Zimmer era could be considered an underrated player. Now, on the podcast and you and I, we've talked about every player up and down the entire roster 50 times, of course, over the Zimmer era.

But on a bigger scale perspective from the outside world, is there somebody that comes to mind over the last five, six years that did not get the attention or does not get the attention that they deserved from the national media that probably should. It's so interesting. I mean, you talk about PFF and our influence over it. I mean, Anthony Harris would have been this guy, right? But now everybody knows he's good, and he gets a franchise tag. Eric Kendricks might have been this guy, but now everybody knows he's good, and he's a Pro Bowl linebacker. I think Tom Johnson maybe. I think Tom Johnson's a Pro Bowl linebacker. I think Tom Johnson maybe.

I think Tom Johnson's a good one. I think if you go back a few years, let's just go with somebody like Alexander Madison for now. I think he'll end up being a player that's going to be good for the Vikings, but people are going to underrate him or they're going to be disappointed by him because he's not Dalvin Cook, you know, when eventually he overtakes Dalvin Cook, you know, Cook leaves or something like that.

But it's interesting now, because I think there's so much attention on football now that we kind of have, there aren't that many underrated players anymore, right? There's a few overrated players, but there aren't as many underrated players. I would say a guy maybe like Anthony Harris would have been that way, but we properly value that guy now. Maybe somebody like Trey Waynes.

I'm not sure. I don't know what the opinion of him is. He's a good, not great player. What do you think? Mackenzie Alexander for a year would have been that guy. Terrence Newman got a lot of attention for being old, but the slot corner position, Captain Munnerland, Terrence Newman, Mackenzie Alexander was always very good under Zimmer, and that was his selection of players, partly guys who really fit in that role, and Terrence

Newman moving roles from an outside corner for his entire career to playing nickel when he's 39 years old does not get enough attention on a number one defense of being something that was an incredible football accomplishment. But I'd love to see a list of guys who changed positions at age 39 in the NFL. He might be the only one ever, unless there was a punter who got a couple of snaps at quarterback or something. I don't know how old Tom Tupo was when he was still taking reps at quarterback, but I can't think of any circumstance where you could switch roles that significantly. It's like playing an entirely different position. Nickel Corner is almost like being a linebacker for somebody who is not of a really great size or anything like Terrence Newman

or wasn't one of those smaller type of players that had really, really quick feet to match up with those guys in the slot and had great seasons. So Terrence Newman would probably be my answer for the player who gets underneath the radar in the Mike Zimmer era that was actually very good. Tom Johnson deserves a lot of credit there. And post-Sheldon Richardson, we saw that if you don't have that guy, that the interior rush is just not the same. And last year, they were pretty severely missing that outside of third downs, but on first and second down, where Tom Johnson was playing 60, 70% of snaps in 2017, a guy who was undrafted and then filled in a role and ultimately proved that he could be a full-time starter in the NFL. That's a pretty cool story. And Zimmer has a lot of those where you're right

that Anthony Harris is no longer underrated, especially when he gets franchise tagged. And then everyone starts to take note. Like, wait a minute, they gave $11 million to this guy? Like, okay, we're going to have to look into it. But Anthony Harris, another cool story of a guy that no one would have ever expected to be a star in the NFL and became one. I think Joe Berger, maybe. That's my answer.

Joe Berger, yeah. I just thought of that one. Offensive lines that were generally brutal. Joe Berger was i just thought of that one offensive lines that were generally brutal joe berger he was the one good player on the line yeah yep and i will throw out there jarius wright for being somebody that was not really given a whole heck of a lot of attention but in 2017 he ends up with i want say, 17 catches and 15 or first downs or 20 catches and 17 or first downs that he seemed to be there in every big moment. In the Minneapolis Miracle game, he catches a 20-something yard pass late in the game

to go down and set them up to score. And he was not spectacular in any particular area, but he was going to be exactly where you wanted him to be when you wanted him to be there. I thought they made a mistake letting him go. I also thought they made a mistake not having him on the field more often. They tried the Laquan Treadwell number three receiver deal. I'm sure he was a better run blocker than Jarius was,

but Jarius was better in every other area of being a wide receiver. And he deserved some kudos for his roles on the early teams. Yeah, for sure. And, you know, even in 2012, when he came off the bench, Percy Harvin got hurt. He made some plays that, you know, I think an offense whose best receiver was Jerome Simpson really needed him. And that, you know, that was, you know, big time for him. So yeah, he's a good one as well. It's so fun to sort of think back and, you know, in 10 years, how will we view these, you know, modern day Vikings? Right, exactly. I'll throw one more out for you from the Favre era, which would be Chester Taylor,

underrated Viking, not given a whole lot of attention nationally. It's all about AP. But if it was a big third down, Chester Taylor was probably going to be out on the field there in the backfield. People gave the Vikings a lot of flack for opting for Chester Taylor in 06 free agency instead of Edger and James, and it was 100% the right move. The Childress, you knowress has a lot of faults but one thing that he did do

when he was the Vikings head coach was he the second contract players he signed were often the second or third most sought after player at the position and ended up being the best. Vysante Shanko over Daniel Graham was another one where he got Shanko for half the price

of Graham and Shanko was far better. Bobby Wade for example is another one where he got Shanko for half the price of Graham and Shanko was far better. Bobby Wade, for example, is another one who, you know, led the Vikings in catches for two years in a row and wasn't all that expensive. You know, Childress had a lot of flaws, but one of them was, you know, one of them was not player selection. Yeah, and it really speaks to even today a lot of times. The best free agent on the list is not always necessarily the best player to sign, in part because why is the guy's team letting him go if he's still –

they know more than you do. Eric Eager, PFF Forecast Podcast, one of my favorites. You guys gave an extensive Cam Newton breakdown, if you are interested in hearing that with you and George Chihuri, that signing. And, well, let's hope that we get football, Eric, and everything goes off on time because we are getting closer to actually starting to break down as opposed to, and I really enjoyed this, as opposed to let's look back at what happened, break down what's going to happen very soon.

I hope that that happens. Yeah, I'm excited and hopeful. Follow him at PFF underscore Eric, and we will talk to you again soon here on Purple Insider.