Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - The roundtable compares the Vikings and Bears rebuilds

Episode Date: November 25, 2023

Matthew Coller along with Will Ragatz of Sports Illustrated and Andrew Krammer of the Star Tribune talk about whether the Bears are a scary opponent for the Vikings and whether their tank rebuild is going to turn out better than the Vikings competitive rebuild and what factors will decide that. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of purple insider Matthew collar here and it is time once again for another Raggetts roundtable with Will Raggetts of Sports Illustrated and Andrew Kramer of the Star Tribune and guess what this time we'll use audio sorry about last week everybody but we assume we're good to go this time and we won't just be muted on camera for this entire discussion uh guys I want to start by saying sorry about Thanksgiving. It was ruined by terrible football. There's more to go that we'll get to watch on Sunday. And then we've got Vikings and Bears. And now all of a sudden, Will, the Vikings can see the Green Bay Packers nipping

at their heels. A couple of weeks ago, we would have said, oh, look, the Packers, they're falling apart. It's a bad season Jordan loves a bust who cares and now like it's only one game the difference between the Vikings and Packers and if they don't win this game against Chicago there's going to be a little bit of heat there yeah it's it's a good place to start I was watching that game and I was thinking just from an objective standpoint like what what would the Vikings want? What's better? And you can kind of make the case both ways, where the Lions losing gives the Vikings a little bit of life in the NFC North.

If they can just kind of handle some business against some subpar quarterbacks the next few weeks, they're going to go into that stretch of two of three against the Lions with a chance where they'll probably have to sweep it to win the division. But crazier things have happened. But then the Packers winning means, yeah, they're right there. Only a game back, I think, is it a half game back or something? Well, it's 1.0, but of course the Vikings won the first matchup against the Packers, and if they win against Chicago,

then it will be one and a half games. Yeah, that's right. So, yeah, I mean, they still have the one more game, though, which is an argument you can make for the Packers. That is a game at U.S. Bank Stadium. But I don't know. Like, I was watching that game yesterday and I wasn't is playing pretty well. Jordan Love did a pretty good Aaron Rodgers impression in that game. And so to me, that was as much about the Packers looking like they have a little bit of life as it was like, all right, are we sure? And I think we mentioned this before. Are we sure about this Lions team as being on that Philly, Dallas, San Francisco tier because of the defense? And I'm not sure. Yeah, I think if you're a Vikings fan, that's exactly what you wanted to see. You wanted to see the lions lose. So the standing things like you talked about shot at the division, but then see them look vulnerable, see them look like,

Hey, this is a division that if you believe in this team and Josh Dobbs, and they can make maybe a run, uh, that they can make a run at that division. Now, if they went out, they're winners in the NFC North, but that's probably not going to happen, obviously. But the Packers doing that without Jair Alexander, without Aaron Jones, without Devondre Campbell, like that was incredibly impressive and just as disappointing in a Lions team that looked like they had just snuck by a Bears team and then thought they were going to, you know, just beat up a Packers team that came in ready to play. It's a little bit of an inkblot test of what did you see there? Because you could certainly look at it if you are very optimistic about the Vikings and say,

well, look, we can catch the Lions. I mean, they're falling apart. If you look at the Lions schedule, pretty unlikely that they fall off of that pedestal with the lead that they have over the Vikings. Or if you are on the pessimistic side, you could say blowing that game in Denver now opens the door for the Packers being right there. And again, the Packers schedule, not that impressive either. They're going to play Kansas city, but after that, they've got a lot of winnable games and then a matchup that if they come to us bank stadium and win, then all of a sudden you could be falling back with them if you don't take care of business with chicago and that's why i think with this chicago game in general that will shape what it

meant because if the vikings win and they go to seven and five then you feel like you're within shouting distance of the detroit lions if detroit has a total meltdown but if you lose you're not going to feel any lower i mean this is going to be the lowest you're going to feel since one and four basically is losing back to back games to the Denver Broncos and Chicago bears. Two games that we all started to write in little W's next to, because we assume that the bears were just going to completely melt themselves. And then they go to Detroit. They put together a good performance there.

And I want to talk about that with you guys. Like how scary are the Chicago bears as an opponent? The first time they played, it was a close game. Tyson Bajan almost did his thing, but through an interception at the end, still they're three and eight. And if you're going to be a contender for the playoffs as the Vikings, this should be a game at home that you win. Yeah, it should be.

And we've, we've kind of learned uh the Kevin O'Connell Vikings and even before Kevin O'Connell nothing ever seems to be really easy so I'm not imagining that this one will be I think the Bears are a little frisky uh with Justin Fields back and some of the the pieces they have but they're they're also still a bad team like this is a game you have to win I think it's tough when you talk about the Vikings trying to catch the Lions like you look back at what happened last week and you're like, all right, the Vikings should have won that game against the Broncos. The Lions probably deserve to lose that game against the Bears and manage to come back. And now the margin for error is just so small because the Vikings

have lost so many winnable games due to turnovers. There is still a path where if they can handle their business against the Bears and the Raiders and the Bengals without Joe Burrow and get back into this thing and win the next three, then if the Lions slip up maybe even once in the next four, and I think they have the Saints mixed in there who are a decent team, then the Lions last three are the two Vikings games and the Cowboys mixed in as well. So it's still like, I think the Lions had an 88% chance to win the division going into the Thanksgiving game. And that's probably still like 82% or something. It's the odds are not great, but there's a chance if you're the Vikings, if you just keep winning and you put pressure on them and that starts with this game against the bears that you have to find a way to win. Yeah. And I'm not a big believer, as we've mentioned in Justin Fields, I think the Brian Flores proved as much too in that game that I know they knocked him out, but he wasn't looking that great beforehand, I thought. And obviously Chicago didn't have Khalil Herbert in that game

and they've acquired a defensive end in Montez Sweat. But I just don't know how much of a difference that's going to make against Brian Flores now at U.S. Bank Stadium with that advantage. I just, I'm not too scared of Chicago if I'm the Vikings, especially if you get a Caleb Evans back in this game. And if Daniel Hunter keeps playing the way he's playing, I think Justin Fields is going to be running around a lot. And DJ Wanham, we know we know what he does against the Bears. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You got two and a half sacks incoming. DJ Wanham flew in every friend and family member guys you're gonna want to see this yeah i'm ready uh all right well let me make the case then for being a little more scared of

them uh justin fields every time you think it's over every time you think this guy's bad he can't play even in the first half of the game we saw last year at u.s bank stadium justin fields was atrocious against the vikings and then had them this close. I, if Amir Smith, Marset doesn't put the ball on the ground and also commit a penalty on a 60 yard touchdown run, then maybe Chicago comes back and wins that game against the Vikings. And with fields, even against Detroit, I know their defense is not as good as the Vikings. I thought it would be better, but it's not. There were some confident plays from Justin Fields on the move, confident throws downfield. And one of the things that we saw of last week,

but he really the last two weeks is a couple of quarterbacks testing with jump balls and contested catches against these corners. And that's something that we have not seen almost at all this season, but when teams have done it, it's been successful. And DJ Moore has it in him to go up and mosh some people and make some big plays. And that's not for me to say that, no, Chicago is going to put up 30 points against Brian Flores' defense, but they've had a chance to look at it once and they have enough talent to be a little bit scary. That's how I look at it is when you go into a

game with Justin Fields, it's unpredictable because you know the talent that he has, and you also know how awful he could be at times when he's not seeing it well enough. But I do wonder about him getting a second look at this defense, and maybe there's some opportunities there for them. Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to say is that you have to be, you have to take it seriously. And there's a little bit of, I don't know, concern. I don't know if that's the right word, but you go in and there is a really wide range of outcomes when you play Justin Fields, because the raw talent is there, the athleticism, the dual threat, the big arm, like who's to say

he's not going to show up and play well and look like Chicago's future. He seems to do that once every five games or something. And it's not, it's not consistent. The results haven't been there, so you can't really expect it. But it's possible. It's not like you're going into a game against Jake Browning and you're like, all right, there's no chance that this guy who's been in the league for four years and never been a starter is going to light us up. This guy was a top 10, top 12 pick who was great in college and has shown these flashes even if he hasn't put it together consistently. So this will be another good test for the Vikings, specifically without Jordan Hicks.

I think Ivan Pace Jr. had a – I thought he had a good game in his kind of post-Hicks debut in that green dot every down roll. They mixed Anthony Barr in a little bit, who we could see potentially a bit more of on Monday night. So it'll be a good test for that. I just – the Brian Flores defense hasn't, put up a dud in a long time, like since week three, maybe. I mean, the Chiefs perhaps in week five, but ever since that winning streak started, it's

just been consistently good performances, different guys stepping up. Daniil Hunter is playing at an extremely high level. A lot of guys are playing at a high level. So I think they can survive without Hicks, but it would be nice, as you said, to get a Caleb Evans back. Yeah, we should see, too, or remember how big of a game Hicks had in that game in Chicago.

That was his defensive player of the week game where he had the touchdown. So that will be a big factor in not having him this time around, especially against Fields. I mean, they trusted Hicks and those linebackers to spy him a lot in that game, especially when they bring pressure. And I think one of the biggest things of why I think the Vikings have a good advantage against Fields in this game is I just think it's

a bad matchup for Fields against Flores. I don't think he handles the blitz very well. I don't think he's a guy that's going to make them pay for their personnel in the secondary. We saw that with Russell Wilson. We saw that with Hertz, the secondary. We saw that with Russell Wilson. We saw that with Hertz, with Herbert. We saw that with Mahomes. There are quarterbacks who can absolutely, just as you said, throw up those contested passes and try to make you pay. I'm not worried about Fields doing that.

I don't think he's going to do it that accurately. I haven't seen him do it that much. And to be fair, I didn't watch the Detroit game for him front to back. Maybe he's made strides in that area. Maybe he's starting to be a better passer. But Detroit but Detroit does not blitz a lot in the Vikings do. Yeah. For me, it's not the necessarily whether he's making strides or not, because when we went to Chicago, we were hearing all about the Washington game and, uh, on a day that, uh, Jack Del Rio gets fired about, I don't know, seven weeks too late, but it just that we were hearing all about this.

Like Justin Fields got it figured out now and everything else. DJ Moore is is his guy. And then he comes out and there's nothing there against the Vikings. My thing is that randomness is hard to figure out. Right. It's kind of like with Justin Fields. You just pull the thing. What is it?

The slot machine. And if it comes up like three footballs, then Justin Fields is good that day. And it reminds me actually of like a Sam Darnold was the same way, where it wasn't that Sam Darnold was bad every single game. In fact, he was great sometimes, and there was no rhyme or reason to it. And so I think that that exists there, and I am curious about how they make adjustments to what they saw

the first time with Brian Flores it does matter that Jordan Hicks is not playing because now you're going to have that U.S. Bank Stadium noise which also impacts the defensive play caller as well and there's a lot of communication to be had there and if somebody makes a mistake Justin Fields can make them pay with a deep pass he can make them pay with legs. Chicago is also the last team to have some success running the ball against the Vikings. They did a good job early in the game and then kind of got away from it. And I am curious about like how they did that and if they can do it again. The defensive side probably concerns me more because Matt Eberflus did a really good job against the Vikings offense

last time and mixed a lot of coverages through things that they didn't see. And what we saw the other night was the Vikings turned the ball over. And as long as you have Josh Dobbs starting, I'm going to go into every game wondering like, is this the one where he throws a couple of interceptions, fumbles, whatever it's going to be. So it's not that I'm saying I'm picking the bears like spoiler alert i'm not but i i just feel like when you look at a team that's six and five versus three and eight you go all right well this gap is massive and you should just steamroll over this team adding montez sweat a very desperate coaching staff they know they're getting fired if they

don't look good toward the end of this season it's a it's a little bit of a caged animal type of thing where you're like you know i'm a little worried that that thing's going to break out and maul me. A caged bear, you would say. I suppose so. Yeah. That is the animal that you could pick for this. You can't underestimate this. I don't think the Vikings will because their coaching staff is very clear about not doing that.

And it's just from our perspectives, like we've covered this team for a while now. If this was a three and eight bears or the eight and three, whoever is like, it's going from our perspectives like all right this we've covered this team for a while now if this was a three and eight bears or the eight and three whoever is like it's going to be a one score game so uh i do think that there are some some real things with that bears defense i mean you're right that that was the last time we were sitting there and at soldier field and like all right this this offense can't move the ball this is dreadful what's going on and we've kind of forgotten about that since then because with two different quarterbacks the offenses looked good over the last month and a half but the bears yeah they do some things schematically that i think can make it tough i think the addition of montez sweat gives them another a good player who can set the edge against the run and rush the passer a little

bit um and they've got some pieces in their secondary i know like jalen johnson had an up and down year and kyler gordon guys like that. But there's some veterans back there, Eddie Jackson as well. Like it's not a horrible defense. I mean, I don't think the numbers are great, but there are some pieces there. They've had some injuries. So, yeah, the Vikings have I think we have to have because it's just been such a topic that's easy to discuss for people on social media, especially. And I know Madison fumbled again, but he was playing well before the fumble. So I don't know.

I'll be curious to see how much Ty Chandler really starts to kind of eat into his workload because Kevin O'Connell said this week, like there has to be some accountability with the fumbles. But how much does he trust Ty Chandler to do pass protection stuff? Because that's what happened on the interception. That was his guy, the blitzing linebacker who hit Josh Dobbs. So I'm curious to see what that split looks like. And I think whatever it is, the Vikings, A, have to take care of the football. But if you can run the ball against this Bears defense, that would really help kind of keep Josh Dobbs out of some of the more turnover prone situations. Yeah, that game in Chicago was the Vikings first game without Jefferson. And they looked just

really lost and not really figuring out where to go with the ball consistently. They couldn't run it. As you said, I think Madison had 18 carries for 40 some yards. It just, it was really ugly. And I think Madison's poor game against Chicago is going to play into why you don't see him as much this week. I really don't think they're going to, they might start him, but I think Ty is going to have at least 50%, if not more of the workload, because he's shown that in that game, he showed him pass protection. He can handle it. He just had one really bad rep in a key spot and it sucks for him. But I do think that he's shown some progress and you go back and look at the track record with him making plays, not fumbling the football, even going back to college. I just, they need to change and they

need, they need some big plays too in the ground game. And Chicago is a team that doesn't give up a lot of consistent four or five yarders, but they do give up some big plays. And I think they're going to play their big play running back more. The longest rush of the season was on a fake punt, but Alex Madison does not have a 20 yard run this year. And Ty Chandler had a 30 yarder on that fake punt. Folks, I hope you've enjoyed listening to us talk about prize picks this year, but if you've missed it, here's how it works. You go to prizepicks.com and it is simple. You pick either more or less between two and six player stat projections and that's it. Now you're playing. So if it's X number of yards for a quarterback, you just decide, are they going to throw for more or less than that

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And, and just as much of a factor that goes underrated when we talk about Alexander Madison, that's been really atrocious is the passing game and and I know it's just one play but that little swing pass on third and 20 that turns into 19 yards that turns into a first down that gives them a chance to score a touchdown rather than kicking a field goal at least gave him a shot to do that that's something we have not seen at all really from the passing game in a long time I mean you have to go back almost to 2019 where they were effective at throwing the ball to running backs in the screen game the screen game has been downright pointless which means that there's just nothing easy for

the quarterback like everything for the quarterback when you can't throw to your running backs has to be all right it's a 15 yard dig that you got to climb the pocket and deliver a throw right on time which we've seen dobbs do but he's not consistently that guy. Exactly. I'd really like to see him just go boop five yards down the field and get 20 because that's just not been the case with Madison. Will, are you a Madison defender? Because your question the other day to Kevin O'Connell, you were like, Kevin, tell us what's good about Alexander Madison. And now I think that's a good approach sometimes is like, hey, can you you can't say, Kevin, explain why this is still a thing. Like, you can't say that. That's what I wanted. Right. No, I know what you were doing there. But I but I did want to ask, like, are you a defender of Madison or do you think it should just be Chandler all the way?

That's that's the thing is I don't really consider myself a Madison defender. Like I think I would like to see more Ty Chandler just because of the explosiveness and the burst. I just kind of wanted to know to what degree he would say anything of actual value at all. Like, why is this a thing? And so you can't put it in those words, but like I asked him like, all right,

can you comment on some of the things that like Madison does that you guys like? And, and he, and he did to something. I mean, he, if you watch that tape of that, um, that game against the Broncos, like there were some situations where Madison, I think PFF gave him seven forced missed tackles where he shrugged a guy off in the backfield. That was on one play. That was the 15 yard. I'm just, I'm joking.

But like that 15 yard or he shared like six guys, there were two or three at least on that one play. That was the 15-yard. I'm joking, but that 15-yarder, he shared like six guys. There were two or three at least on that one play. Just beast mode. I think some of the contact balance, the falling forward stuff, they trust him a little bit more, I think, in pass protection than Ty Chandler just because he's just had a larger kind of bank of reps doing it at the NFL level. And I think the pass blocking grade PFF is a little bit higher for Madison. So I just kind of wanted to know, like, all right, because I think it's driving some people

crazy when they when they see this happen over and over again. And and they're they're they're wondering why, whether it was Cam Akers or Ty Chandler, why is Madison always still the guy who trots out there with the first team offense on the first series of the game and seems to handle 60, 70 percent of the snaps most games? And so I was just kind of looking for some some insight on that. At the same time, it was a good question by Kevin Seifert, like, will the fumble affect things? And Kevin O'Connell didn't fully say it will, but he kind of hinted at that. So this could be the week perhaps where they just

get fed up with the fumbling thing and that specific fumble that madison had against the broncos like it wasn't even it was just terrible ball security it wasn't even like one of those where you're going to the ground he gets punched out the last second yeah yeah he just it just got popped out you you can't have that happen and i I think Madison defenders will say, okay, it was only a second loss fumble of the year, but there were a couple that were like, oh, his knee was down a second before the ball came out. Like it's been an issue.

So I don't know. To answer your question, I would not say I'm a Madison defender. I'm trying to understand what the coaching staff is seeing to continue playing. The passing game stuff is a great point, though, too, because we've seen him drop so many passes where that that typically wasn't his game like he wasn't a guy that was dropping a ton of passes before and i don't know if he's in his own head because of the anticipation of this big workload and the bad start to the year that he had continued

disappointment and production in the run game um it just seems like mentally he's not you know putting it all together and playing cleanly you're seeing like yips kind of stuff with him I totally agree that this is not the same player that we saw a couple years ago and we've tried to figure it out like is it scheme or is it the pressure that's gotten to him here we sort of take for granted when someone is a backup and then we think they can go into the role of being a starter. It's sort of what impresses me about Josh Dobbs is that he had been a starter before. It's not too big for him. And if you think he's going to continue it, well, that's because he's had this experience before

and he just doesn't seem in over his head with the way he's playing. Madison has seemed in over his head with the way that he's playing. He's never in his career had to take on this much of a workload. And what you see is the sample size is kind of like maybe a baseball hitter. The more they play, the more the holes in their swing start to show up. Even if when they first got called up from AAA, they hit some home runs. But I also think that their scheme, it really requires a lot of like double teams and a lot of weight until that gap presents itself and then go. And that's what I was really impressed by with Ty Chandler. Of course, some of the bigger plays were exciting, but there were like seven yard runs where I think with Madison, it's a three yard run. And that's a huge difference between second and seven versus second

and three in what you can do. Uh, if you guys will allow, I'd like to change the topic entirely for away from this. Cause I think everybody agrees like play Chandler. So in 2022, both of these franchises fired their general managers, coaches, and made massive overhauls and changes. Ryan polls and the Chicago bears decided to do a full tank and rebuild and stack a bunch of talent through the draft and so forth while the Vikings took their competitive rebuild track

where do we stand right now on those two things clearly the Vikings are ahead for their roster but we knew they would be if they were taking a competitive rebuild the Bears could be in line for the number one overall draft pick and maybe like the fifth overall draft pick to go forward. They could also fire their coach and general manager because Kevin Warren is there now. And I think that Kevin Warren wants more control over the football side to hire his own person and have that synergy between him and the GM. But if you're looking at where they stand now and where they're going forward, I guess what is your feeling on the battle of the rebuilds? Yeah, I think it's hard to say that I wouldn't rather be the Vikings just with what they've shown.

I know they have a very uncertain future at quarterback after this year. But just the coaching, the culture, the things that they've kind of built and the way they've been able to win games while reshuffling things. I know there's not a Super Bowl ceiling this year with Josh Dobbs and probably not even if Kirk Cousins had remained healthy. But I think you just can feel good about kind of the identity of the team. The Bears might have a higher ceiling, but it's kind of like the Justin Fields discussion. Like it is a wide range of outcomes where I mean, I think they should probably fire Matt Iberflues. Just I don't think he's a very good coach. They were supposed to kind of take a little step this year and not be three and eight at this point. And they should go after someone like, like Ben Johnson within the division, or just, I don't know, some kind of

offensive mind, whether it's going to be Justin Fields or it probably should be Caleb Williams, Drake May, somebody like that they i think i think ryan poles deserves to stick around it hasn't always been perfect um but i think i mean the trade uh involving the number one pick last year is a great example of of good business and that has set them up well for this year's draft where they could have two really high picks so i yeah they if they hit on that quarterback and maybe bring in a new offensive mind, they've still got lots of cap space and draft capital and things like that.

They could all of a sudden take a big step next year or maybe even 2025. But for right now, with what we know, I think I'd still rather be the Vikings. Yeah, I would too, just because at this point, the slate looks pretty clean at quarterback beyond this year. And the bears have a huge decision to make not only a coach, which the Vikings have figured out, uh, but also at quarterback and yeah, they might get it served on a platter where here's Caleb Williams. And maybe my answer next year is different. If Caleb Williams looks like Patrick Mahomes, like everybody thinks. So at this point, though, the Vikings continue to win. Kevin O'Connell, I think, tied the record for most wins within the first two years with

this franchise. It's really impressive considering everything they got rid of this offseason to try and truly, you know, at least commit to the rebuild side of their competitive rebuild when they get rid of all those veterans. I think Brian Flores has answered the biggest question under Kevin O'Connell, which is, can you figure out the defense or a guy to come in and do that for you? They've got the coaching. And right now they're at least seeing some pieces, whether it's TJ Hawkinson, Josh Dobbs, acquired pieces under this front office that are producing for them. Yeah, it's going in the right

direction for the Vikings, even if you don't feel like it's Super Bowl 2023. So this one is hard because the floor of what the Bears can be after this tank is horrific. It's many years of complete irrelevance and pure destruction and basically just the Jets, right right where they've tanked and they drafted quarterbacks and they all busted and usually through bears history they have a good enough defense to be somewhat relevant but even then their defense has not been rebuilt very well in a year but there are teams that come to mind to where we view them as atrocities, the worst franchises, the most irrelevant teams, LOL Bengals, LOL Texans. Ha ha.

They look so terrible. They're going to draft. I know they should be better. I mean, the chargers at the end of the time with Philip Rivers, but especially the Bengals and Texans. I mean, those two franchises were absolute laughingstocks. And then here comes Joe Bur burrow and whoops you're in the super bowl here comes cj stroud this dude is still a rookie and they are legit a competitor

in the afc because they tanked now you could say well look at carolina that's absolutely true that's what i mean is that you could end up if you pick the wrong guy if it doesn't work out that they end up being super bad but this also gives them the potential to be if they pick caleb williams if he becomes a star let's scan the old nfc for quarterbacks let's see uh can't find many so like you could immediately have the most talented quarterback in the entire conference if if it works out for you and then whoever is the next gm ends up looking like a genius because they use all that cap space and all the hacks we've talked about forever and i don't think anybody knows which way it's going to go the vikings have the potential to

get the next quarterback have him drop into this situation and be great but just odds wise and quesia da flensah admitted this at the beginning of the season, there is a better chance for a team that tanks to get that megastar quarterback, which is what you're trying to build around to try to win a Super Bowl. Yeah, no, I mean, you're absolutely right. It's just, it could be up here. It could be down here. The Vikings are like set up somewhere in here with a wide, with a, a, a smaller range of outcomes, I guess. And the Vikings still have a wide range of outcomes because they could trade up. And I don't know if they're able to get high enough for like a Drake May,

who some people now think even might go ahead of Caleb Williams. But if you can get like a Michael Penix or just J.J. McCarthy, if there's somebody that you like in that kind of second tier of quarterbacks, we've seen with Josh Dobbs, like who people didn't expect a whole lot from. This is the best situation maybe in the NFL for a quarterback with the best receiver in football, arguably the best left tackle in football, a coach who can adjust to the things that his quarterback does well and call plays at a high level and give them opportunities to succeed. I don't know who the quarterback is going to be in 2024,

and that's going to be what we talk about all offseason until it happens. Is it going to be Kirk Cousins again? Is it going to be Dobbs? I think the Dobbs train came back to life or came back to earth a little bit against the Broncos, even though he did still have two pretty nice touchdowns. Is it going to be a rookie? Like there's so many possibilities, but whatever it is, assuming that they're able to get a Jefferson extension done, like the situation just could not be better. So I think that gives you a much higher floor than the Bears and a ceiling that isn't there with like the Caleb idea, but isn't that far off? I don't think.

I think the crux of it too is the question I want to ask you guys is do you trust or should fans trust Kevin O'Connell to make that decision on the quarterback? And I think he's given no reason why you shouldn't. And I think whether it's what he's done with Kirk Cousins, what he's done with Josh Dobbs, Kevin O'Connell is going to have such a big voice in picking that guy. And yeah, they're not going to be set up to have it on a platter like a Caleb Williams or maybe even a Drake May. But if he believes in one of these third, fourth or fifth options in the draft, who's to say it's not going to be in a crapshoot first round that we talk about all the time, being one of the best quarterbacks in that option. if you're the Vikings you're thinking we've got the guy that can at least go find the guy

right now in this building and then coach him even if it's not the number one overall pick when we talk about the ceiling of this team and it really entirely depends on that and if they go back to what they had for a very long time. I think we know what the ceiling on that is. But otherwise, there are franchises we can look at and say, look, that team was good and then added their quarterback and ended up winning. Now, of course, Brock Purdy is a dumb luck type of thing. Jalen Hurts wasn't a first round pick necessarily, but has fit in super well with what Philadelphia wants to do.

Also, I mean, you look at Buffalo and Kansas City, and of course, Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes are maybe the first and second best quarterbacks in the league, but neither one of them was the first overall pick. Both of those teams were good the year before. Both of them made the playoffs the year before. They ended up getting those quarterbacks, and they trade up for Patrick Mahomes, trade up

for Josh Allen, drop those guys into situations that were good culture wise, roster wise, coaching wise. And then they've seen them turn into Superbowl contenders. So I think that if there is a quarterback in their mind that fits what they are trying to do here with what Kevin O'Connell wants. And I think that is an accurate passer, somebody who can handle a lot of information, somebody who can execute what they're doing. And then as we've seen with Dobbs, someone who can make you right when you're wrong, if that player is there, that gives them a chance to develop with this system around them and for them to rebuild the defense at the same time like that the defense part can't be

left out of the quarterback conversation is they've made a lot of progress here more than I thought they were going to make more than Kevin O'Connell thought they were going to make according to him uh the other day and that accelerates the timeline a little bit for me now it doesn't mean that next year that defense is number one overall but it means that like it's all the whole train is going in the right direction for this roster whereas the bears still have so many different things they have to put together so it could work out for them or if they end up drafting the right quarterback for the vikings then you have the same advantages even if you didn't draft the person number one or two overall. Yeah. I mean, the two best quarterbacks in the NFC right now, I don't think there would be much debate on this or Jalen Hurts and Dak Prescott. Neither one was a first round pick. So that's not

to say that you should bank on finding your franchise quarterback in the second round because the odds are not great. Usually the best case scenario for that is like Derek Carr. But it is to say that you don't have to pick that guy number one overall, like you said, to have them be an option. I think just the crux of the quarterback thing next year, the decision, like we've heard some buzz or whatever that, oh, the Vikings want Kirk Cousins back. I just think even these three games with Josh Dobbs have shown Kevin O'Connell and opened his eyes that like, oh my God, how much fun can I have as a play caller? And how much fun can my offense be with a quarterback who can move a little bit?

And that's not to discredit Kirk, who was absolutely playing at a very high level with mastery of the offense and hitting all these first, second, third window throws, going through progressions, doing that. You need that as well for Kevin O'Connell's offense. But if you can find the perfect world of somebody who can do that at a high level, maybe even a little higher level than what we've seen from Dobbs so far, and also create outside of structure and, like you said, make you right when it isn't all schemed up perfectly, I just think that he's learned a lot in these three weeks and is going to want some element of that athleticism.

So if there's a guy in the draft that they like that has some of both of those things, I think there are a few kind of intriguing names. I think they might go in that direction and there's still, you know, there's still six more games for Dobbs to kind of make a case that why it could just be him. But either way, I just don't see it being cousins because you you like you said you know the ceiling on that we've we've been through this and I know he was playing maybe better than he ever had before but it's not only what he does on the

field it's also then the contract you have to give him and what that means for the roster building and I just I just don't see them going back to that direction. I see them kind of going somewhere new. Yeah. I think Kirk's money. I mean, that's the biggest thing, right? And in case he said it, when he spoke after the trade deadline of like, I can want Kirk as much as I want, but it's a two way street here. There's going to, there's a line. He didn't say this, but there's a line they're going to draw in terms of the money. And if Kirk wants more, it's the reason a deal didn't get done last year. They drew a line, Kirk wanted more and they waited too long and he got even more expensive. So now I think this injury is going to be fascinating how it impacts him and their value

of him coming off of it. It's all going to be very fascinating. I just think that Kirk, I would think Kirk is very much still a possibility. We just have to see how much that's going to cost for him. I don't think you can rule it out for sure at the right price. Maybe I just I really think O'Connell has realized some things about what a mobile quarterback can do during these three games. And is also finding out just how open those receivers are sometimes when, you know, Dobbs is delivering balls that are not as accurate. But you're getting some of the same results from the passing game. Uh, let's, uh, flip back away from that though, because that is yet to be determined for both franchises. And wouldn't it be funny if the bears got five good games out of Justin Fields the rest of the way. And it's, Oh, the time that they beat the Vikings, they signed,

you know, to an extension and they decided he's their guy. And then he fell off the face of the earth. That does happen sometimes Daniel Jones, but, uh, it back to this game though, Justin Jefferson, what are our feelings on whether Justin Jefferson will play? And even I I'd like your guys' opinion on what it looks like with Justin Jefferson, because I don't think slot fades 40 yards down the field. They're going to be quite the same with Dobbs is accuracy versus Kirk cousins. But at the same time, there's nothing you can not do with just the Jefferson. So what is your take on that?

Yeah, I don't think he, I don't think he plays on Monday. It's possible. Like if he really just feels good, there's no reason to, to hold him out of a game you really want to win. But if there's any, even if it's like he's 93%,

just give him the extra 13 days with the bye week and make sure he's really locked in and ready to go in Vegas. I don't think he plays. I don't know exactly what it'll look like when he does. I can guess that it's going to look good because he's a very good football player. And I don't think he'll need to like shake off much rust or anything. And there'll be a little bit of kind of figuring out on the fly, you know, the connection with

him and Dobbs. But Dobbs is accurate enough. We've seen TJ Hawkinson have big games. We've seen him hit Jordan Addison on some second level stuff. Justin Jefferson's so good. You just you put it in, put it in the vicinity and the chances are he's going to make you look good. So I think it will all work out well. I think like there could be some of the stuff that we see from Josh Allen and Stefan Diggs in Buffalo that makes them so great is the scramble drill stuff.

When Josh Allen shrugs off two potential sacks and does a 360 and runs out of the pocket like digs just knows how to get open and they've honed that over years but i think that's an exciting thing with jefferson is he's just a really instinctive player and we saw that i mean you go back to him playing with joe burrow at lsu like there'll be some times when when when dobbs breaks open and jefferson just can find kind of that that open patch and they can make things happen outside of structure i think jefferson said he's never played with a mobile quarterback he said like joe is the most mobile he's ever played with joe burrow is not no no no so it will be interesting to see that adjustment of like has he practiced the scramble drill very much has he had to do and it'll be you know all pro wide

receiver won't be that hard for him to figure that out but i think it'll be very interesting to see how they mesh j Dobbs turnover-ness and the magician-ness that they like to call him with giving Justin those opportunities, with taking chances, with just putting the ball up there and seeing him come down with it. Kirk Cousins is so incredibly accurate. We get so used to what it should look like with that, that now we see with Dobbs, he's committed two turnovers in three of his games right at least two turnovers in two of these three games um so I think with with Dobbs and with Jefferson they have a real balance to strike of trying to make sure that you maintain ball security getting Justin the the opportunities he needs because yeah it's not going to be 40 yard slot

fades it's not going to be pinpoint dime dig routes coming in while the quarterback's getting drilled. Instead, Josh is going to be running away from that pressure and trying to create, and then they need to figure that out off schedule. That's not how Kevin O'Connell loves to run his offense. I do think that that one touchdown he had against the Saints where he does the 360, it's amazing. Kevin O'Connell's got his palms to the sky. I don't think they want that. I think they realize that that is not totally sustainable all the time because most often he's going to turn around and run into a defender like he did in Denver sometimes. So I think they've got a balance to strike. Wes Phillips talked about it. You hear coaches talk about it. And then with Justin coming back this week or not,

I think it was on Sirius XM or one of those radio shows, O'Connell said what he's basically been hinting at with us, which is we've had a plan all along with Justin and we're not going to let a loss or anything affect that plan for him. And I think the plan all along has been after the biweek. Well, you know, uh, getting the Justin Jefferson to work for any quarterback is not rocket science, right? Uh, all right. Let's, uh, it's been a couple couple weeks since we got one of those i was holding it to the end uh who do we think is going to win this game i i mean i think it's an easy pick to say that you think the vikings will win but i also think it could be a shrug i i don't think it will be the easiest thing i don't think they're just going to blast the Bears into space. I feel like this is going to be a battle,

but the Vikings will ultimately win. It's always a battle. That is a really safe pick on my part. No, but it's the right pick. I mean, we have so much data in this Vikings team that they are just going to, even if they were up 14-0 in the first, they'd find a way and it would be a six-point game or something.

I'm still waiting for the first 17-point victory since Chargers in December 2019, which just feels so ridiculous to say, but it's a great stat. Yeah, I'm going to pick the Vikings in a close one. I think it's going to be a struggle, but they'll find a way to get it done. I think they're going to be, I don't think the loss to Denver really changes anything, but it may be a little bit of a slight wake-up call. You can't just win all of these games and you have to take care of the football, and coaching staff maybe has to play the backup running back a little bit more

and make him not the backup running back perhaps. I think you brought up a good point. We've talked about this the past few weeks weeks like the sustainability thing with josh dobbs you need to see a little more of just all right five step drop read one two make the throw because there were a couple times where the spinning the fully spinning and like his his head is facing or his eyes are facing the complete opposite way like that worked out a couple times in the first two games, and then it didn't work out a couple times against the Broncos. I don't think you can really make a living doing that. You can break it out occasionally if you need to,

but I think that'll be kind of a focus this week is let's hit some more of the easy stuff and make it a little bit less of an adventure in the pocket. I think the Vikings win this game, though. Yeah, I'm going to pick the Vikings as well, but it's mainly because I think Brian Flores versus Justin Fields at US Bank Stadium is going to be a decisive Vikings advantage. Now, the element I didn't think about is you brought up the run game and the Bears run game and yeah, not to form in, they,

they had something going there and then decided to not do it anymore. I do wonder if with a running quarterback, if Fields is healthy, the whole game, That's the one part that worries me is that you've seen this Vikings team be vulnerable to defending the run when you have to account for the mobile quarterback, whether it's just the one quarter in Chicago or the full game in Philly, it's been an issue for them. And that's the only time that the run defenses looked particularly vulnerable. So I do wonder if Chicago can get creative with the lanes and try to find a way to keep Josh Dobbs off the field. But at home, I think the Vikings coming off a loss will have a fight that we did not see from Detroit, for instance, on Thursday.

All right. There you have it. The Raggetts roundtable for this week. Thank you, Andrew. Thank you, Will. We will do it again sometime. I mean, we got the bye week. So I guess before the Vegas game will be the next roundtable.

So thanks, everybody, for watching slash listening, and we will catch y'all next time.