Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - The roundtable debates whether Kurt Warner has a point about Vikings benching Josh Dobbs

Episode Date: December 14, 2023

Matthew Coller is joined by Will Ragatz of Sports Illustrated and Andrew Krammer of the Star Tribune try to toe the line between hot take and the right analysis. Did Kurt Warner make a good point about the Vikings benching Josh Dobbs in his video on the NFL's YouTube or did they make the right call sitting down Dobbs? Will Ty Chandler breakout? How many games will they win the rest of the way? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here inside TCO Performance Center, along with Will Raggetts of Sports Illustrated and Andrew Kramer of the Star Tribune once again. And fellas, you know, we've talked a lot about stuff with this team over the entire year and with the quarterback situation and everything else, we have a lot to talk about. But I wanted to play a little game with you guys so i don't know if our listeners realize this but my reputation on the beat is one

of a perpetual line stepper uh meaning that you know when i shouldn't say something sometimes it gets said so what i want to do for this show is i want to preview Bengals and Vikings by stepping close to the line or maybe crossing the line. So I want you guys to make statements about this game and the team and our topics at hand and ask the question, am I going too far? Am I stepping over the line? So let me let me start out just to demonstrate. Am I stepping over the line by saying, I think Jake Browning should throw like four interceptions in this game against Brian Flores' defense? I don't buy his magical ascension to being the Cincinnati Kurt Warner.

I think they've thrown a bunch of screens and play actions against bad defenses, and I just don't believe it at all. Am I going over the line to make that statement? You're certainly getting close to the line by throwing the four number out. I don't think Jake Browning is suddenly some incredible quarterback. I mean, we've seen Jake Browning dating back to 2020, 2021 as a Vikings kind of practice squad guy. He's been in the league for a while and he's kind of, you can tell he sort of knows what he's doing as far as kind of playing the Nick Mullins role and executing it maybe with a higher ceiling than Nick

Mullins has with some arm talent, but you're right that it's a lot of screens. It's a lot of kind of schemed up stuff. It's going to be tough for him going against Brian Flores defense. I don't know if he's going to be tough for him going against Brian Flores defense. I don't know if he's going to throw three or four interceptions, but I don't think he's going to have a particularly good day, even though he did go like it was like 32 for 37 against whoever was a couple weeks ago. Jacksonville. Jacksonville, 350 yards. That's right. I was going to say Baltimore, but that was the game where he broke. I hurt. But you're getting close to the line there and maybe crossing it a little bit but um i don't know i i i believe

in brian flores defense and have for a couple months now you like puns i can't believe you didn't say close to the skyline i can't believe you didn't lean into that um i think we're finding out in the nfl with all these backup quarterbacks getting in there who the good coaches are right we're finding out who the good coordinators are um quarterbacks getting in there who the good coaches are. We're finding out who the good coordinators are when it's all these Jake Brownings and Aiden O'Connells. I think we're seeing Zach Taylor is just a good coach, that he's going to adjust an offense that really allowed Joe Burrow previously to just play hero ball into a play action offense. A lot of screens, a lot of running back stuff, as you mentioned. So it doesn't matter if Jake Browning's not good because this offense could still be schemed in such where maybe he gets Brian Flores on a player too. Maybe Jamar Chase breaks a tackle. We've seen a Caleb Evans and Byron Murphy miss a lot of tackles on the perimeter. Those guys lead the Vikings secondary

in missed tackles. So that's going to be big for this game because those guys, whether it's T Higgins or Chase or the running backs, can make a lot of plays on you. So I don't think you're overstepping the line, but I think it's not necessarily going to matter because he's not going to like Brock Purdy. He might not necessarily have to be, you know, the guy who elevates everything. It's going to be a decent system with a decent coach that gives them a chance. OK, do you guys want to you want to try stepping over the line? I think, I mean, of course I did by saying four interceptions, but I think Browning is going to have a much tougher time just running a

bunch of screens because this team does do a good job against those. As we saw against both Chicago and against the Las Vegas, you want, you want to go over the line related one that I was thinking of when, when you talk about that, it's easy segue is just with Brian Flores and what he's done with this defense this year and there's a there's a bunch of different ways that you could go with this I mean you look at just the DVOA since week six I think they're second in the

league EPA they're now top five they're top five in points um they're like eighth in yards allowed like you could talk about comparing it to other defenses this year. I'm going to take a different approach and say I think Brian Flores is the best defensive play caller and defensive mind in the history of the Minnesota Vikings. And that's with acknowledgement to Mike Zimmer and to Bud Grant. That's understanding the bit. But I'm going for it. I think Brian Flores, just the job that he's done this season with –

I mean, just look at the pieces on defense. This is not a defense like 2017 or 2019 where it was stacked with all pro talent. I mean, you've got Daniel Hunter who's still probably been the best player in the defense, and Harrison Smith's still playing fairly well. He's not in his peak form anymore. But he's doing this with Ivan Pace Jr., who is an undrafted rookie who, to be fair, probably should have been drafted by somebody. He's doing this with Josh Metellus, who he's turned into a pro bowler after the guy has been

a special teams player his whole career, basically. He's doing this with Cam Bynum, who looks like one of the best safeties in the league. Just the pieces. DJ Wanham, who we've talked about a lot as he gets like all these cleanup sacks and I'm not sure he's a starting edge he looks like a really kind of productive starting caliber edge this season so I don't know that am I stepping over the line with that one um I think I see where you're coming from I guess I'll say that you know I think Mike Zimmer did a lot of great things I think there's been a lot of good, great defensive coaches in this franchise's history. And we're seeing, I just, we're seeing such a turnaround from Ed Donatel that it's easy to see that and think that this is one of the greatest turnarounds we've seen in the NFL,

certainly recently. So that's a decent point about Flores in terms of his, what he's been able to do in just such a short time, because he might be gone. I thought it was over the line to say this guy was going to be a head coaching candidate after one year, but he's earned it. If I had to try and say something like that, that's maybe blasphemous, I would say this Vikings offense has the potential with Nick Mullins to put up 30 points in Cincinnati. Why not? Why not? They've got everything but the quarterback figured out right now, but they might be playing a backup right tackle. They might be playing a backup running back. So it might hold them back a little bit.

But I think Nick Mullins is going to give them a timing and an anticipation and a little bit of a calmness in the operation that if they can protect him, this offense could get back on track in such a way that people go, hey, that's what we that's what we saw before. OK, let me touch on both line crossings. Uh, as far as Brian Flores goes, I do think we have to look at Mike Zimmer 2015 as a very similar type of turnaround because he takes over the team. They were 32nd in 2013, two years later, they are an elite defense. That's going down to green Bay, shutting down Aaron Rogers, getting into the playoffs. And I know it was very cold but still holding seattle's offense down in a playoff game and then to say the 2017 defense was good would be ridiculous they were amazing they were number one in everything points yards passing rushing third downs like every category and we look at

these guys now and go, well, Metellus was a sixth rounder, but then we were saying, Hey, Daniel Hunter's this third rounder who like, I know that there were some other first round picks like bar, but even Eric Kendricks, it wasn't clear he was going to be a star. So it's following a similar path, but it has made me believe very strongly in that person, that role as being a little more valuable than maybe i thought i kind of thought well it's roster but creativity development and so forth the 30 points is a little harder for me to to get to and now jefferson being back and playing with a quarterback that might suit him a little more like not throwing it so high that he's defense is also not good that that is yeah that

is another part for sure the the Bengals defense is not good at all it's just you know when I was watching back Nick Mullins I was thinking well that was almost picked oh that was almost picked oh that was almost picked I mean even the throw that he makes to Jordan Addison to win the game when you look at it on tape that corner is breaking on that football and he comes this close to picking that thing off, running it all the way back. And we're having a different conversation, but he didn't, but he didn't, but he didn't. It's the, but it's feels similar to what we said with Dobbs where we're like, you know what? If he runs backward the other way around every game, someone's going to kill him. And guess what? That's exactly what happened uh 30 points

i would say is a lot to ask but i do agree with you that the cincinnati defense is not what we expected them to be coming into the season it would be quite the the ironic turn if the vikings went from scoring three points in one game to then having like 34 the next week. And if there is a defense to do it against with this version of the, the Kirk cousins lists Vikings, it's the Bengals who have allowed 11 more explosive plays than any other team in the league this year. They've allowed 96. The Vikings are in first with like 54.

So they, it's a lot of 20 yard passes and 10 yard runs. And yeah, it's going to be a little difficult for the Vikings if they don't have Brian O'Neill or Alexander Madison, which I think we're kind of assuming is going to be the case. But when you've got Justin Jefferson, you've got Hawkins and you've got Addison. I think if they can find ways to get Ty Chandler in space, I still like what he does there. Clearly they haven't really trusted him with the way that they went back to

Madison after we had the whole Chandler Madison debate, but hey, get, get CJ ham some more carries. He averaged seven yards per carry last week. One carry for seven yards. So that's crossing the line. Get CJ ham worker.

No, I don't actually believe that, but I like what they've done with CJ ham and all seriousness, like using him and pass protection on third down. He does a really good job with that. I, I, no,'ve done with CJ Hamm in all seriousness, like using him in pass protection on third down. He does a really good job with that. I don't with you. I don't actually believe it. I was just trying to.

I know that's the game. That's the game. But I do think this is going to be something where they probably don't reach that because O'Connell is going to be conservative. Right. And there's been moments where we probably would even criticize him for being too conservative. But when this defense is playing as well as it's playing, I think that's why he's going to do that. And when you're on your fourth quarterback, he's probably not going to call as many pass plays. You would hope he probably could have called more running plays in Las Vegas even.

But at the same time, I think this is going to be a much more calm operation with Mullins. It should be anyway, because Dobbs, he's just been playing at such a level that we're going to see him probably as the third quarterback, not even the backup on Saturday. Okay. So of course I crossed the line all the time. Easily. It's part of who I am,

but there was someone online, a legendary quarterback who may have crossed the line with his opinion on what happened against the Raiders, which was Kurt Warner made a whole video and they put it on the NFL's main YouTube account saying the Vikings should not have benched Josh Dobbs. And his argument was a look at the number of drops that happened. KJ Osborne got a football right between the two numbers and dropped it among others.

But also there were some plays that he looked at where he said where's the ball supposed to go here what is josh jobs supposed to do here and it seemed like kevin o'connell was just hovering his hand over that button waiting like i i want my quarterback who can operate my offense and as soon as it didn't go well he smashed the button in the moment of, I did not disagree with him at all. But did Kurt Warner cross the line saying the Dobbs should not have been benched? It's hard for me to say that Hall of Fame quarterback and two-time MVP. Roast him, Will.

No, no. And I'm sympathetic to or not sympathetic, but I'm understanding of where he was coming from when you look at some of the tape and you look at the fact that PFF credited Dobbs' pass catchers with six drops. Like he's 10 for 23, but if you catch all six of those, you're 16 for 23. You got more yards. The numbers don't look nearly as bad. I don't know. It's one of those things where I know where he's coming

from. I see it. I don't think Dobbs was nearly as bad as just the numbers looked and maybe the broadcast of the game looked at times. But at the same time, I don't think there's much debate at all that going to Mullins was something they had to do in that situation with nine minutes left in the game and arguably probably should have done earlier to give yourself just a spark and just to change things up it's it's like there was just certain factors of the way that Dobbs plays the game plays quarterback just weren't really working to some degree and and there were some drops to me where it's like yes it's a drop but also the ball just isn't right where it should be. And you can't kind of forget about the fact that he got Justin Jefferson literally sent to the hospital with a ball that was too high. And just some throws that are slightly behind people.

And the fact that Dobbs run game as a scrambler has kind of been shut down. If you want a guy to just be your pocket passer and operate the offense, it's not that Nick Mullins is, like, way better than Josh Dobbs or just significantly more advanced at playing quarterback, but he knows the offense better. He's been in the system longer. He's going to be a little bit more trustworthy with the rhythm and timing and making the right decision quickly. So I agree with the coaching staff's decision to bench Dobbs in the moment

and to start Mullins this week. But I also understand where Warner's coming from by saying, all right, everybody, let's rely. Like Dobbs, that wasn't Josh Freeman level bad or anything. Yeah, I think Kurt Warner was absolutely right when you're talking about all the drops. I mean, we can see it, whether it's KJ Osborne dropping one that hit him right in the numbers. But then there's some that, as you mentioned, Will,

that I think are a quarterback in Josh Dobbs, who's just not really known to be hyper accurate and clearly doesn't have a ton of timing down with these receivers and also throws a very fast and heavy kind of pass compared to some of the other quarterbacks like Kirk or Mullins, for instance. So when you see Addison break on a dig route and that ball comes out early because he doesn't have the timing down, and then it kind of comes up on him really quickly and he tips it into an interception like he did in the Bears game. I mean, those are the kind of things that stick with this coaching staff where they're thinking Nick Mullins probably waits in the beat of the, in the rhythm of the play and gets that ball out. And it might not get there as quickly and maybe it gets batted down because the defensive back can close on him

but it's not going to end in that catastrophic play with a guy who just doesn't have the timing and when we use these cliches like timing and practice time and the history built up in the chemistry that's what it means in terms of the small details of just ending in a catastrophic play so i don't think that surely i'm not going to say kirk in a catastrophic play. So I don't think that, surely I'm not going to say Kurt Warner's wrong, but I also don't think Kevin O'Connell's wrong to say, we need a change. You scored, you know, three points. Like you were about to head to the first 0-0 game in regulation

and like what, forever. So I can't argue with the coach saying, you know what, we got to go to a change, try something else, because you've got four games to save your season right now. And part of it is too, that this Vikings offense, these drops, they are who they are. They lead the league in drops. Now they've done this all season. They went through a period in the middle of the year where they kind of cleaned it up, but beginning of the year has been awful. Recently, it's been awful. Um, some of this too, is just just kind of who these this crew kind of is right

now i was i was rooting for the first uh zero zero tie since 1943 43 is that it yes wow or two just go why don't you just go back to the hall of fame kurt warner how about that just just go look at your your super bowl ring or something no i i i uh appreciated the breakdown from Kurt Warner because I do think that it felt so horrific in the moment that when you see someone say like Dobbs shouldn't have been benched, like, excuse me. But I thought that his logic was sound. And I think they can both be right, that it was right to make the change to try to just get something going. I'm surprised that that doesn't happen more in the league where a quarterback's having a really tough day. It used to back in the day, but I think now everybody's like more sensitive to that and what it would mean. It's like, if you bench your quarterback, it's such a huge story that like, well, I might as well just leave them in there.

But when it's Nick Mullins and Josh Dobbs, I think that they are different, but have the same problem. Like they're different as in josh jobs can't control how fast he throws the football or where yeah and mullins can but can't throw it hard enough and so it's kind of like having two cars and one of them the gas pedal sticks down and you might run a red light as you're trying to get it to pop off or something but the other one can't get above 47 miles an hour. And they're like, well, guess who's not winning the race, like, you know, or, or, uh, wanting to stick with this car. Like they are backups for a reason. And either one is going to have their problems.

I do think that Nick Mullins is at least making O'Connell feel more like he can call what he needs to call. And there was one play that I thought where a rusher came through it and Mullins knew where his outlet was. And I think that Dobbs didn't in a lot of ways where like the pressure would come and there was no other option for him, but either run or get sacked opposing teams figured out the running part. And then you, you just have really nothing there. Would it be stepping over the line to say that Ty Chandler will finish this game with 120-plus all-purpose yards with Alexander Madison down? Is that over the line?

Yes, I think so. I don't know. I mean, it's possible with the kind of athlete that Ty Chandler is, but it's been interesting, and it's hard to really diagnose what the exact reasons are, but the coaching staff, just as I kind of alluded to earlier, clearly doesn't seem to really put a ton of trust in Ty Chandler. The obvious one we always point to is the pass protection,

but I think there's also things with vision and stuff we've talked about. Alignment. With Madison in the past when it was dalvin cook as a starter alignment and and hitting the right hole and and being trusted to kind of help your blockers out and make them right um so i i mean i think there's no there's really no other option they're not going to like turn to kane wongwu or something it's going to be ty chandler but um yeah i think he'll need to break a big 50, 60-yard play to get to that number, which could happen.

I see a little more of like 15 carries for 54 yards and maybe a couple catches. Will, you're forgetting about, as Mark Sanchez likes to call him, the pride of Lake Superior, C.J. Hamm, Duluth, Denfeld's own. He's probably going gonna end up getting like a decent amount of the third down work maybe a couple carries he had a run I suppose in Las Vegas um it's kind of a um unexciting option but one that the coaching staff just loves and we know we're gonna see him and that's why I think Ty Chandler is probably not gonna get that kind of

true workhorse like you're talking about that much kind of work. So I would have to agree with you. This show is being brought to you by BetterHelp. Folks, the holidays are an exciting time for buying gifts and spending time with family. But you have to remember that sometimes the best gift is the one you can give yourself. If you're finding the holiday season tough on you, maybe the best gift is paying a you can give yourself. If you're finding the holiday season tough on you, maybe the best gift is paying a little more attention to yourself, whether that's therapy or just finding time away from the holiday stress. If you are interested in getting someone on your

side this December, you may want to check out BetterHelp. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapist anytime for no additional charge. In the season of giving, give yourself what you need with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash insider today to get 10% off your first month. That's better help. H E L P dot com slash insider. So I went all purpose for a reason because I also think there's going to be a lot of checkdowns in this game. And I mean, it doesn't really take that much when we include the receiving part to get him to 70 yards rushing and 50 yards receiving. What do you have in Denver?

It was like 120-ish against Denver, yeah. I mean, they will not play Kenny Wong running back. I mean, he's going to have to get in there at some point, but we've basically never seen that. I have struggled to decide whether I think that's a failure by the coaching staff or not. Like I understand when you can't trust players, but also when they run a four, three at six foot one and 210 pounds,

is there a way, is there anything we can do here? Like I watch Miami and I think all these guys can't be flawless within the offense, right? Are they just fast and ball goes to them? So I'd like to see a little more creativity with kenny wong it just doesn't seem like that's in the cards and yeah would i be shocked if cj ham

ended up with eight carries and five catches and 52 snaps or something of course i wouldn't because trust just seems to be the thing that supersedes everything else with Kevin O'Connell. And maybe somebody want to cross the line with a Kevin O'Connell take. I've got emailers who have crossed the line. Anybody want to cross the line? If you won't, I will. No, go, please go ahead. Well, I'm curious to see which direction you're going. OK, well, I did get an email saying you should be fired and they should put Brian.

I think we all agree. The reason to play the game is to have it close to the line, not like blowing by the line. Close to the line, I think, would be saying that your belief in Kevin O'Connell being able to shapeshift, use people to their strengths, has reduced after watching him without the starting quarterback because they didn't do that. And there have been players who are like Ty Chandler or like Kenny Wong Wu got to be useful somehow and have not been found a way to be useful. Josh Dobbs clearly can't be Kirk Cousins and yet seem to be asked to be Kirk Cousins in a lot of instances. And now that's in part, one of the reasons you're having to make the change.

Is it across the line to say when they go and make that decision for quarterback, it better be his favorite guy. It better be someone who fits flawlessly with what he wants to do because he's not changing that as it comes to the passing offense. That is a good one where you're, you're stepping right up to the line there. Yeah, you're navigating it, straddling it a little bit. I think my faith in Kevin O'Connor, my belief in Kevin O'Connor as a play caller, an offensive designer, kind of reached its peak after that Falcons game when I was like, he did with with a guy who had been here for three days and and give Josh Dobbs a ton of credit for some of the magic that he was able

to pull out of his hat in that game but then it's and then I mean first half against the Saints I'm like this this team's gonna win the Super Bowl but it's weird it's a weird dynamic where the longer that Josh Dobbs was in the system and the more he theoretically learned the offense, like the worst it got, like it's a strange thing where I get the other part of it too, is defenses then had plans for him and they had tape on him and they adjusted, but it seems like the Vikings, the last couple of games Bears and Raiders specifically, weren't really able to adjust back and find ways to get Dobbs out of the pocket and get him some of those rushing attempts.

And I know that teams can kind of use their edge players and try to keep him contained. But it was odd to me that O'Connell wasn't able to sort of find some way to kind of keep the Dobbs thing going. And I, again, I don't know how much of that is on O'Connell or is on Dobbs or is on what defenses we're doing. But I agree that your faith in him slips a tiny bit. I don't want to be too critical kind of about anything in the post-Kirk Cousins world, because that's such a season killer realistically for any team. But yeah, I think it's,

it's been, there's a little bit of a question in my head now where does, does O'Connell need the cousins type to be his next quarterback or can he with a whole off season with more preparation, really cook up a game plan for a Dobbs type of a better version of that kind of quarterback prototype it's gonna make me sound like the homer now I can't believe it I think you're absolutely stepping over the line what he did in Atlanta what Kevin O'Connell did what Josh Dobbs did like that was enough to say that this whole season was a success post Kirk Cousins

injury because once the way Kirk was playing he could have been getting all pro votes by the end of the year. If he had continued that, especially with the deep, the way the defense was rounding into form, uh, their biggest question mark right now with this team, if Kirk Cousins were healthy would be the fact that they can't hold onto the football, the fumbles, the drops, all that stuff. Like just their skill talent has been betraying the rest of their offense, even though they've been healthy, largely outside of the Jefferson injury. So I think Kevin O'Connell as a pass game coordinator is one of the best in the NFL. I think when you say Kirk Cousins type, to me, that just means an accurate in rhythm quarterback that doesn't need to be the most accurate. It doesn't need to be Kirk. Um, but it's certainly a lot better when it is. And I think Dobbs, the reason we've seen

him bounce around so many teams and not get many opportunities is because he must be this inconsistent behind the scenes. He must be this kind of guy just generally as a player. There's no questioning, obviously, the intellect that's been well talked about. But in terms of just getting out there and being a consistent performer, it's not there. And so I don't put too much of that on O'Connell. Clearly, in the middle of the season, he cannot transform the offense into a read option. He can't make Alexander Madison comfortable with getting the ball taken out of his hands

by a quarterback because they've never practiced that until recently. I don't put that so much on him. What I would put on him this year is they don't have much of a run game. They haven't been able to coordinate a run game. That's not really his purview, obviously. So with Curtis Modkins and what they have on staff and Chris Cooper and the offensive line coach trying to do that, they need to find a better way to do it. And they invested the resources in the front office to get a better running game. And that's been one of the biggest failures as well with this Vikings team. When you just look at it objectively and take injuries out of it, the run game has been

abysmal. So that to me is the biggest question mark with O'Connell as an offensive guys. You need to be more than a pass game guy. Look what Mike McDaniel's doing in Miami. Like I, no one saw that coming. No one saw their, their game, their offense turning from one of the most electric passing games you've ever seen to being one of the best running games you've ever seen with a 31 year old Raheem Mostert. So you're right like that when it talked when you talk about Miami like that's the kind of offense where you see them just plug in playmakers and find a way in in the run game no less and that's what I want to see out of O'Connell to say he's one of the best head coaches but right now I think him as a past game coordinator a game planner a game caller I think that's largely been

successful it's just been undercut by a lot of different a game caller. I think that's largely been successful. It's just been undercut by a lot of different things. And that's Kyle Shanahan, too. Even before they had Christian McCaffrey, it's the run game with Elijah Mitchell or whoever. They are able to marry things so well and be so balanced and get explosives on the ground and through the air. And the Vikings just haven't really been able to do that.

Is their longest run of the season the Ty Chandler fake punt? I think so. I think it is. Yeah, except Madison had a 21-yarder against the Bears. That was his longest. And Madison looked good in the first half against the Raiders before he got hurt. But, yeah, the run game just hasn't been there all year.

Folks, I hope you've enjoyed listening to us talk about prize picks this year but if you've missed it here's how it works you go to prizepicks.com and it is simple you pick either more or less between two and six players stat projections and that's it now you're playing so if it's x number of yards for a quarterback you just decide are they going to throw for more or less than that number of yards but it works with lots of different options, receiving yards, touchdowns, even field goals, all sorts of sports as well. prizepicks.com slash purple. Go there, use the code purple for the first deposit match up to $100.

One of the reasons I like PrizePix, it is very simple to use. You'd see how we do it on the show real quick and easy and then we talk about our picks and also not expensive either you can turn ten dollars into 250 by nailing just a couple of picks so go to prizepicks.com slash purple the code purple daily fantasy sports made easy and and not having support from the run game for the past game also i think makes a difference uh there was kind of a sense that you can still run play action without really effective running but there's a part that's missed there which is the opportunities that you're in it's not that you can't run play action it's how how often you can run play action. It's pretty hard to run play action on second and 12 because no one believes you. And the Vikings have been in a lot of second and 12. It did make me think the

way that this has played out a little bit, that there should have been more, uh, maybe pairing it back for Dobbs, not necessarily revamping an entire offense, but everyone has said, like, including Wes Phillips has talked about, like, we have to give them the whole offense. Cause that's how we get receivers open. You're like, I get that. But when you look at Jake Browning over the last couple of weeks, the screens, the play actions, the things that you could do and Zach Taylor and Kevin O'Connell come from the same place. They also had a similar style quarterback. Like I think we all think Burrows better, but he's a pocket quarterback who throws with accuracy and anticipation and timing and rhythm.

So it's sort of similar along the same lines. But to your point, Andrew, uh, find his work at Vikings fan.web by the way, now, um, classic Homer, but, uh, to your point, if you do, if you use a pro football reference and you search from the moment Kevin O'Connell got here to the moment Kirk Cousins got hurt, they were seventh in scoring in the NFL. And when Cousins got hurt this year, they were top five in expected points added through passing. And if you can get those type of numbers, you're going to be pretty successful. And even if you take a step forward as far as a quarterback.

That's with no run game. With no run game, right, with no run game. And for two years right and i think i mean realistically they probably just need a better running back i mean i i think the scheme is a little muddled but a lot of times it was likely just on the running back or at least a lot of the numbers would say that as far as the blocking grades the rushing yards over expected stuff so i don't look at kevin O'Connell at all and say like, oh man, they should just,

you know, strip the play calling abilities or higher florists or anything quite like that. But I don't think that that completely removes any criticism to say, as you mentioned, we'll like, it kept getting worse as opposed to the more that the offense that he learned because he doesn't fit.

And I also kept thinking Michael pennix makes so much more sense to me now after seeing this like that is the guy who throws with accuracy who could sit in the pocket let things develop anticipate accuracy arm strength all those things that if we're talking about the future of the quarterback position that they need to get the perfect fit for him like we go back to that will levis thing maybe's like, is it crossing the line to say they should have drafted Will Levis? You can give me your opinion, but I say no, because like that's not his type of quarterback. And I think what we know from this is he really needs his type to run this offense. Yeah.

I mean, I have a general one that like, I think when we look back at this season, there's going to be, it's been a wild season. There was the beginning of the year where they couldn't stop turning the ball over. And you're like, all right, this team should be better than this. They keep losing these games. And then they started to get rolling kind of without Justin Jefferson. And I think it was like when Kirk Cousins hit Jordan Addison for a touchdown in Green Bay to go up 24-3. You're like, all right, this team might actually be pretty dang good.

And then Kirk gets hurt. The Dobbs-Linsanity run happens, which will be fun to remember in like 10 years. But my potentially stepping up to the line take is that if this team with this defense had Kirk Cousins still healthy, they'd be the third best team in the NFC behind only San Francisco and Dallas and not insanely far behind those two teams. I think they would be a legitimate tier two Super Bowl contender with just everything that we saw when Kirk was firing on all cylinders and with what the defense has done for the last month, two months. So it's kind of it's to me, it's always going to kind of be like a what if season in that regard.

I would have really liked to have seen Brian Flores's defense against a healthy San Francisco like with Debo, with Trent like that. Really think it would have looked different and a not concussed Brock Purdy at the end. I think that did tell things in the Vikings favor, because when you talk about them as a Super Bowl contender, that's what we envisioned in terms of what the height of the conference and the matchup would look like. And I think they could have stood toe-to-toe with what we're looking at in terms of how they played Christian McCaffrey in that game, albeit without those two guys I mentioned. I don't think that's too overstepping it, just because of the way Kirk was really playing in this offense. And they got the Eagles in week two when they weren't. They didn't really know what they were doing, I think, as a defense yet.

And they were still figuring out some of how they wanted to play on the defensive line and how they wanted to. And they gave up like 300 rushing yards. I think like they could be better than the Eagles right now with healthy Kirk and with the way that the defense has been playing. I don't know about that one. That's crossing the line. I would say, though, that look at this conference.

The NFC sucks. So I think that really it's just the top guys. It's the three teams. It's Dallas, Philly and San Francisco. To me, Detroit looks very vulnerable right now. You've seen golf has some very bad moments against Chicago, no less. So I just think that the Vikings, if they could have stayed healthy, why not?

Because of especially how mediocre the rest of this conference looks. So a few things on that. I mean, number one, there are still four games to go for Brian Flores's defense and they are against good offenses. It has been a while since they've faced the good offense that this matters to the calculation because we are declaring them a top five defense right now. Will they finish as a top five defense after they faced Detroit twice as a top five defense after they face detroit twice as the top 10 offense and even you know green bay saved for the other night the last time we saw him against jordan love yeah no that's true but jordan love has improved i know against the giants uh wasn't perfect but he's improved since then plus they got a look at it so now they're going to see

it again i just don't want to like say oh well this defense would have been up there with what san francisco and dallas can do defensively because i think those teams have more talent and they've been squeezing the most out of it and aiden o'connell is not an nfl quarterback like it does that set that that to me says st louis battle hawks all over it like it's just that right and so does tyson bagent who, who they took advantage of and everything else. And honestly, Bryce Young is playing like that right now as well. I mean, that is, no, I'm not saying he's going to be that. I'm saying he's playing like that. He's playing like a replacement level guy you brought in from the XFL quarterback.

And I think that because Kirk got hurt when he did, we were like, oh man, he would have just kept playing like that through the rest of the season. We know Kirk cousins. We saw Carolina. We saw Chicago. Like there would have been other games where we were like, huh? He went down in Kirktober. So maybe, you know, maybe in Atlanta, maybe in Atlanta or against, you know, against new Orleans, like maybe those actually play out differently with Kirk cousins. So I w I don't want to say that I would have put them in the same category as the three best teams in the NFC, uh, Detroit though. Like, could they have been neck and neck with Detroit? Yeah, I think so. I just think we can't forget like how many times

we saw Kirk cousins play super well. And we're like, Whoa, this will stay forever. And then three weeks later, it's like, it doesn't happen the carolina game he had a bad game really bad game in carolina i thought right it's the kirk coaster for a reason but would they have gone into the playoffs though more likely than not as a dangerous team that somebody could be upset in the first round of course of course that could have happened uh let's close out with this because we got to go up to the uh locker room and so forth uh but let's close with this let's say that i told you that three of the final four games went in one direction either a win or a loss which would you think i was talking about if i said three out of four went this way either a win or a loss which would i be saying would i be saying they won three out of four or lost three out of four went this way, either a win or a loss.

Which would I be saying? Would I be saying they won three out of four or lost three out of four? I think loss would be more likely just when you have Nick Mullins. Vikingshater.web, Will Raggetts. Well, I've been kind of going both ways here where I've said some outlandishly homery things. So I'll balance it out by saying I i think i think losing throughout a four feels more likely to me than winning throughout a four and i know i just got done ranting about how good brian flores defense has been but it's it's nick mullins it's um you forget about all the those graphics talking about his first 17 starts compared to andrew blocker or whatever which i've seen

on circulating on social media the guy is is a backup caliber quarterback with backup caliber arm talent. To me, that suggests it could be some three and outs and some turnovers. And the schedule in this last four is good enough that, I mean, they certainly could win three of the last four if the defense keeps playing like this. But I think the more likely outcome would be they lose three of the last four with if the defense keeps playing like this but i think the more likely outcome would be they lose three of the last four and i am actually going to pick them i think to lose this game in cincinnati you've been good at picking them this year and i was good earlier i've been a little cold recently regression to the will i think they're probably gonna this team's got two and two written all over it yeah for the end of it right but if i had to pick it to lean

one way or the other i guess i would go three losses just because I don't see as you mentioned with Nick Mullins I think he's going to provide them a little bit of a boost here but it's how sustained is that going to be how much is that going to last week to week I really don't know and I don't have a ton of confidence in and if this offense continues to be banged up the way that it is, I don't know if they can find many answers other than Jefferson and their passing game. So I would say three losses and I would say those three losses would probably be, I think they're going to win Saturday and then drop the final three,

if that would be it. And miss the playoff. Well, see, I think they're going to go two and two though. I think they'll pick up a win against Detroit. I think they'll split against Detroit and lose out, lose to green bay for some reason i just i think the way the green bay is playing right now uh is going they're going to catch them a little bit

differently and then i think they'll split against detroit any combination of two wins gets them into the playoffs so we know exactly what they need and it's also in my mind as well the most likely scenario but that doesn't cross the line it only crosses the line if we're talking about three wins or three losses. Four wins. Yeah, four wins. I'm surprised Andrew didn't say that. They're just going to win out. Kevin O'Connell, Coach of the Year, Championship.

You know, just the last thing I'll say is a stat that will hit you in the face a little bit. The last quarterback who was a backup to go to the Super Bowl that played more than five games. So, you know, Nick Foles came in, played like three, four games after Carson Wentz got hurt was Tom Brady in 2001. And the only quarterbacks who have gone from the wild card to win the Super Bowl are Ben Roethlisberger, Eli Manning, Tom Brady, and Aaron Rodgers. So, you know, enjoy the ride, I guess, for whatever is coming up next. I mean, we never know. Are you telling all the people out there that they shouldn't be thinking Nick Mullins is

going to win the Super Bowl? Nick Mullins, Tom Brady? I'm saying that Nick Mullins is Tom Brady, which does not cross the line at all. That's exactly what I am intimating. Anyway, well, we got to run, but thanks so much everybody for watching. Uh, I think that the Vikings will win in Cincinnati.

I agree. I think they're going to find a way, but then after that, it'll still be, uh, maybe potentially treacherous, but thanks everybody for watching. And we will do this again next week.

Football.